Smile At You... philosophical question
 

So I'm listening to random tracks from Say You Will right now, and Smile At You just came on. I know when the album was released, Smile At You unleashed a holy wrath from Stevie fans who had enjoyed the demos of this song for decades. Many of us felt the song had been totally ruined, and placed the blame squarely on Lindsey.

However, listening to the song just now I have to say had I never heard the demos, I'd think Smile At You was pretty awesome. I think the production is very neat... definitely cutting edge. It's very dark and mystical in a totally new way. Had I never heard the demos, I might just have thought this song was one of the neatest and most progressive things Stevie'd ever done in the Mac.

So the question is, does everything think they might have enjoyed Smile At You had you not heard the old demos first? Or do you still hold by your opinions that the song just isn't very good?

No, I think any song where Stevie doesn't even sing on her own chorus is terrible. All those whispering LBs make my stomach turn.

There's no climx to the song. It just goes along on a slow buzzzzzzzzzzzz... and then is over.

I love Stevie's voice on "I am older now, but I still remember!" but that's about all I like about this version of the song. Had it been my first exposure to "Smile At You", I would have said, "No wonder it's been in a vault since 1977."

"Cutting edge"? For 2003???

I think I heard the original song before I heard the demos. And, at the time, I thought that the verses were good, and she sounded great... but then that awful bloody chorus with the "oooh aaaahs" and what not. I can't warm to that at all, it's pure garbage. One example of a great Stevie song ruined by Lindsey's production.

If I had never heard the demo, then this song would probably be my favorite off the record. I don't think it's bad, by any means, but I've been listening to the demo for years and was just very disappointed when I heard the new version. Yes it has a bit of passion, but not the WRATH that the demo had when it was originally written/recorded.

Nowadays, I think of the demo and the SYW version as two different songs. It's easier for me to enjoy both of them that way. One was pure raw emotion, the other was wisdom from looking back and learning. I'm sure that's kind of stupid, but that's how I look at it. I really do love the instrumentation and Stevie's vocal on the SYW version. Lindsey's "turned away and ran...fast as I can" line still kind of bugs me though, as it's one of the great lines that Stevie sings in the original demo.

But to answer your question. Yes, had I not heard the demo, I would have been happy with the song.

"Running Through The Garden" still remains my fav off of SYW. That one REALLY IS a lot better than the original demo.

I don't think that the Stevie of today, with her changed voice, will ever quite manage to convey the same fury through her voice as she did in some of her older demos.
Having said that, once I got over the fact that LB had altered Smile At You so dramatically, it grew on me a lot and I now see it as a very good, updated version, rather than a ruinous abomination.
Stevie's voice is powerful and dramatic in a different way to the vocals of the demos, and the production and musical arrangement brings it out well. I like the way the instrumentation is sparse in the verses and more layered during the choruses, and the guitar during the bridge is excellent.

The song itself is an excellent lyric, but this treatment of it is trashy, like the B side of a one-hit-wonder band from the late '80s. The lead vocal is boring & unpleasant to my ears: it's an overtly trebly electronic sound that isn't flattering to Stevie's natural nasality at all. It's too flangey or phased or something.

Even if I had never heard the two earlier renditions of it with Fleetwood Mac, I'd still not like this one. People throw around the phrase "overproduced" a lot, sometimes without knowing what it actually means, but this track is undeniably overproduced. It's like a Rob Cohen movie treatment, but beyond amped-up kinesis into enervated, artificial exhaustion. Everything that was bad about the Tango in the Night album has been used here, but nothing that was good. The whole thing sounds as if it came directly from the demo function on the old Yamaha DX-7.

Really tough to say if I'd like it without having heard the demo. The problem with the album version is the heart of the song was removed. The demo (there's a couple), but the "angry version" is dripping with venom and that's what it makes it so great. She's hurt, she's angry and the line "my first mistake was to smile at you..." says SO much. The album version has little to no feeling or meaning. So I don't think my opinion of the song would have changed had I not heard the demo. I think it would have been a "this song would be better if..."

For a long time, it was my least favorite song on the album. But now whenever I get to this song I find it's a sonic adventure. John is so great on this song.

I saw this thread and went and listened to the song for the first time in ages.

There isn't a way to realistically remove the experience of knowing this song and the various demos for the past 30 plus years. Especially due to the fact that I have been nuts about it for all this time. But, in my library the next two songs that played were Fireflies and Call On Me For Magic. And that helped to bring into vivid relief the things that I do not like about the SYW version.

There are things I like about the newer version. The bass line is a monster and the placement of it in the mix could be even more prominent throughout. It is one of JM's best bass lines ever. Vocally, as was pointed out previously, the delivery of "I am older now but I still remember" is excellent. Even though Stevie's range and vocal timbre have changed for the worse in a lot of ways, the way she sings that line is a brief but powerful example of the emotion and gravity she can wield when she is in the zone and is recorded properly. My favorite part of this version is the acoustic overlay in the outro. Musically, that section makes me wish the entire song had been recorded in the same simplistic and unadorned manner. It starts simply too. The spare, minor note intro is foreboding and kind of sad. I think that was the only thing the song needed - spare guitar, that slamming bass line, and maybe a layer of extra guitar in a few spots.

That's the real problem with this version of the song. It isn't simple enough. There is too much going on and it is distracting. The structure is strong, the lyrics are direct and powerful, and for once, Stevie actually nailed the bridge. It is short, blunt and stops the song dead in its tracks. Bridges are one of her biggest weaknesses as a writer, and when she gets a bridge right, leave it. Just leave it alone. Give it some silence so it can resonate. The song could realistically end right there. The problem is, the song just goes right back into its chugging, muddy, fog filled fuzziness. All the strength and directness of the song is shrouded by the soupy sonic mess LB lays over it. The chorus sounds terrible. For me it shines a harsh light on everything that is wrong with the way LB produces things anymore. Those whispery vocals of his are a cringe producing precious PITA. So is the vocal processing. It was an interesting and fresh studio trick 20 + years ago. Now it is just stupid. Just let the song be what it is. Play it, give it room to breathe. All the studio effects and knob twisting are like piling cool whip and chocolate sprinkles onto a perfectly made cake. The flavors get mixed up. It confuses the taste buds. In this case it just fills my ears with a bunch of superfluous crap that gets in the way of a solid, powerful, direct composition. As we all know, that isn't Stevies strong suit as a writer. So let the song stand on its own. In this case it actually can, so get the f-k out if its way.

Same thing with the vocals. Just sit her ass on a stool and turn on the mic. Don't process the hell out of it. COMFM is that kind of vocal. So is Fireflies. The woman can still sing. All she needs is a little echo and some added top end. Please do not put her through the vocal equivalent of a cuisinart. It is annoying and pulls focus from the entire point - her voice still can pack an emotional punch. Even more than it used to in some cases. She really knows what to do with her voice now and given the right environment she does. That road weary croak factor is real and earned now. Let us hear every gravelly, exhausted, strained edge of it. Any relatively experienced producer can inject technical wizardry into a recording in order to show off his skills. Sometimes less is more, and it takes a selfless and sensitive artist to step away, see that a song is done, and leave it the hell alone.

So no, I wouldn't have liked this version, even without the original demos to remind me. I think LB got too busy in the kitchen and messed a really solid song up with a bunch of extras it didn't need. It isn't the first time he has done it, but this is one of his most egregious offenses.

Bingo. Bingo. And bingo.

Great post Sparky. You nailed it! Leaving no stone unturned.

My problem with the album version has nothing to do with Stevie's voice. While it's not quite as furious as it was on the demos by any means, it still conveys the emotion convincingly enough for me to enjoy it. My problems with it lie completely in its production and instrumentation. Quite frankly it just isn't good and imo doesn't feel/jive right with the song at all. There's too much going on. The song speaks for itself and doesn't need all of the extra crap.

In other words, I completely agree with Sparky.

Also: I heard the album version before the demo. The album version still wasn't good.

I'll always perfer the Mirage Smile At You outtake than the SYW version. Her emotion on the Mirage version is just there--you can't fake that. Plus I do think the lyrics are changed which I don't like after hearing this outtake. (Just like I don't like the lyric changes to Listen To The Rain compared to the original demo or is it outtake from '91 ? ) I don't like lyric changes when they don't make sense or add anything to it. The Tusk Smile is ok but its a little bit shorter I believe so I'll always like the Mirage version the best. I'm not saying that you can't make any demo/outtake better but its all a matter of taste and what you like. So the Mirage outtake is always what I'll like. If you like the SYW version thats ok too. Theres not a right or wrong. :shrug:

I prefer the SYW version and I heard it before I heard the demo. I like the demo fine - the "angry version" as everyone calls it - but it sounds like she's stripping her vocal chords.

But, if I'm using the correct technical terminology, I like the production in the SYW version. It ties everything together. The way the music tracks are layered with the background voclas and the way John's bass line stand out gives it the solid foundation it needs. I also like the way Stevie's background vocals wrap around her lead vocal in a haunting way. I think her voice is still very strong here and the emotion projects through in a way that is still very forceful and even reminiscent of the demo. My favorite part of it is the ending - LB's flamenco guitar work with Mick's bongos add a sweet fade out. Nice touch.

If I had heard the demo prior to the SYW version I would still prefer the SYW version. I think of what Lindsey said recently in an interview when he was asked how he felt about the demos being bootlegged - he said there's a reason they remained demos or were cut from albums and so he wasn't too thrilled about them floating around for public consumption. I have to say that is a producer's prerogative. It makes me sad for the artists in a way, because the fans may have been much more supportive if they had never heard these songs for years in demo form, expecting a finished work to sound practically identical. And, it makes everyone play producer. What do we know? Some more than others, obviously. But, I haven't heard Stevie's raw vocal tracks or the individual music tracks. For all I know, Lindsey was working around everyone's limitations the best way he could.

I will never understand how we can all be Fleetwood Mac fans (?) and have such harsh criticisms for Lindsey Buckingham's work as their producer. :shrug:

I love the SYW version of Smile at You and find the complexity of the production addictive. There is a lot going on in the song as recorded this way and it matches the sentiments expressed beautifully. Every time I listen I find a new twist or trick that makes me want more. Her vocals give me the creeps and the floating, complicated instrumentation and hovering background vocals and whispers really convey confusion, heat, anger, and despair brilliantly. Just my opinion, but from the first time I heard it it has been "oh my god, guys!"

Well, as someone who heard the SYW version first, I must say I love it. Don't get me wrong, I love the "angry" version too, but I think the produced version is superior. As for lyric changes, I don't see what everyone's fuss is about. Stevie had those lyrics in the 80's (even "I should have turned and ran, as fast as I can"!), why would she go and change them back in 2002?

They're saying Stevie should have sung those lyrics, not whispery LB vocals.

Really the only thing I like about the SYW version is John's bass. It's aces. The new Smile At You can never compete with the wrath of the demo though. Lindsey's production can suck it.

I actually like what Lindsey did with this song a lot. The demos (esp. the "angry version") were raw, but the song sort of meandered.

I don't have a problem at all w/ LB's singing on it, but the bad grammar makes me cringe every time I listen to it. Also, the "Go on save yourself...leave the key here...you love someone else...I shouldn't be here" line makes no sense. If the guy is the one who's leaving, then shouldn't it be "You love someone else...*you* shouldn't be here"?

I can't get past those two things. At all. :laugh:

And it's far from being just Stevie who does things like this. I read books all the time - major authors published by major publishers - bad syntax, worse grammar...sometimes they even make up words ("ourself" - ugh). Makes me want to take out my red pen, and I'm not even a teacher.

That line makes perfect sense. I've always assumed that in this case Stevie just realized that the guy is involved with someone. Up til now she thought the guy was single. Now that she knows she is saying she needs to get out. She's saying she shouldn't be a part of this whole thing. She could be talking to herself. When she says "Go on save yourself, leave the key here...." she's talking to herself. She could have said "HE loves someone else and I shouldn't be here..." But that sounds kind of awkward.

Maybe they had a hotel room or rented love shack, which neither of them actually lived in full time. So, he should leave the key, 'cause she's going to end the relationship and end the lease. And she shouldn't be there either.

I actually think like this for a lot of Stevie songs because they seem to take place (in my mind) in a hotel rather than a house. That's why she's always listening through a wall or outside in the hall or something. There's something surreptitious about it, which is why I don't think they're in a home together. Rather they seem to be having an affair on the side.

That's why she hears his voice in the (hotel) room next to hers in If Anyone Falls. That's why she's wondering if she should stand outside his (hotel) door and wait for Thrown Down. That's why she's alone in her "room" in Fall From Grace. She's an adult who owns a house. You really don't talk about "rooms" unless you're a kid or you have a roommate and your bedroom is the only place that's yours alone. When Stevie talks about rooms a lot, I envision them as hotel rooms, mostly.

Michele

And the hallways with the doors ....yes, she's in a hotel. I think in Live in Chicago when introducing IAF she even says - "I went straight home to my hotel and wrote this song."

Makes sense.

Ultimately, the blame has to be placed on Stevie. Like she has said before, if she does not like how a song turns out then it gets pulled and goes back into the vault. It is her song, and after all the years I'm sure that she has enough say to pull one of her own songs if she does not like how it came out. The problem is...why didn't she? In fact, why didn't the whole band (all 4) realize that the album was not up to par with the rest of their releases. Sure it is o.k. but at this point in their career they should only want to leave quality work behind. There are some good songs, but it is weak in many areas.

Has Stevie said she was specifically displeased with Smile At You? I know she's lambasted Lindsey's production of her songs in general on Say You Will.

What's the demo sound like? I've only heard the SYW version. And it really does, as someone mention, sound like a B-Side out of an 80s band. But I think that's the bass line. I think the complex chorus with the roaming vocals is probably the best part of the song.

I'm not really a fan of the bridge. I think the blasting bass with the same note there just sounds amateurish in song writing. Know that opinion's probably not going to be well received. Felt like a "oh crap, we have to have a bridge to make this generic pop song structure."

Actually I never heard the demo so for me "Smile At You" was brand new. I liked it. It wasn't my favorite SN track on Say You Will (that was, hands down, "Thrown Down"), but still I thought "Smile At You" was cool: I like the atmospherics, I like the "a-aaaaahhhhh", its a very eerie song.

I think the people who are stuck on the demos are nuts. The demos were angry and rock but they went nowhere. They just meandered. Lindsey turned that song into a gem. He wrapped it up into the pop song Stevie wanted. It's her best vocal on that album, too. He is a genious.

Wow, now that I've heard, that version is a ton more passionate, I agree. I do like the bridge as it sounds in the demo a lot more, but I still think the polished choruses sound nice with the SYW version. I don't think Stevie can really belt like that anymore though.

I really like the SYW version, and consider it one of her stronger songs on the album. Granted, I'm approaching it from a different angle--as a newer fan, I heard the album version before the demo. Even still, some of the criticism of LB's production is a little unfair--no arrangement in 2003 could have lived up to people's hopes. The demos were spectacular for Stevie's fiery vocal performance, and he couldn't have recreated that. I think he worked around her new voice fairly effectively--the verses are still spectacular, and there's some great instrumentation (particularly on the base). It was never going to be as passionate or powerful as the original, but it's an interesting song with a haunting quality.
That's not to say I agree with all of his choices--the chorus is pretty wonky, and it probably is overproduced (I had to giggle at someone's description of it as a messy soup of production--definitely some truth there!). But I don't think there would be this vitriol towards it fans hadn't spent years listening to the demo.

Nice interpretation--I hadn't pictured it that way, but I think your right to set this song in a hotel, as many others certainly are. It adds interesting elements to so many songs--the loneliness of being on the road (Imperial Hotel?), the odd position of knowing people in the the next room intimately.
Setting Smile at You in a hotel might go a long way in explaining the tension in the relationship-- she's traveling with a former lover, and though she should be running away, she's effectively trapped with him.

I love the lyrics to Smile At You--powerful and evocative, and quite revealing of how Stevie saw herself at that point. The lyrics are a huge part of what makes the SYW version work for me.

I always think of Lindsey and Carol Ann when I hear it. Does the timing work for it to be about them?
The way I imagine it, the song is about the ongoing relationship between Stevie and LB after he got together with CAH. Driven by jealousy or lingering affection, she made the mistake of smiling at him just as he was moving on with a sweet, "willing" girl who desperately wants to make him happy (after Storms, the willing line is what made me flash to Carol). But as the love triangle builds and she finds herself in his room, she realizes "I shouldn't be here"--the relationship is bringing out the worst in her, and can't possibly end well. Smile At You is Stevie looking at Lindsey with his Disney princess girlfriend, and feeling like a self-destructive mess (whose walls are flaming!).

At least, that's the story in my head. But maybe it's about something completely different. She does say, "I am older now"--is it an older relationship? Anyone have info on the meaning?

There's no doubt about that. I've been waiting for the men in the white coats to haul me off for years.

Agreed that it is genius, and a "sonic wonderland" as someone else said here. I have been addicted to this song on SYW for about 8 years. In my top Stevie songs ever.

What makes that demo a demo? It features all the instrumentalists in Fleetwood Mac (at the time) playing at white-hot heat.

Lindsey also probably shaped the 1981 recording. But you happen to think his vision on that one was "meandering" & "went nowhere."

It isn't that x number of fans are "stuck on the demos" per se. It's that we prefer what Fleetwood Mac did with the song in 1981 to what was done with the song in 2002/3.

Lindsey probably did have something to do with the earlier recording. It was originally intended for "Mirage". Stevie said in an interview prior to the albums release that she had three songs on there. She alluded to the fact that one of them was a very angry song that Lindsey said didn't fit the rest of the album, so she had to change it. In it's place we got "Straight Back".

No allusions, Stevie flat out SAID "Smile At You" was the angry song that would probably get axed and replaced (Bay Area Music, September 1981). The other two songs of hers recorded in France for Mirage were "If You Were My Love" and "That's Alright", per Stevie.

All three Stevie sings along to on her Rolling Stone cover shoot video. Why do people call these "demos"?

To my untrained ears, "If You Were My Love" and "Smile at You" stop just short of being final studio tracks. They are probably considered demos because they have not been mixed and mastered, even though the raw material is there for a final studio recording. By contrast, I consider "Joan of Arc" to be a truly unreleased studio track; it's definitely not merely a demo.

Now, *that's* a hell of a song that should've seen the light of day. It wasn't even released as a B-side, as far as I know.

I'm a little surprised to hear that the "angry" Smile at You was basically a finished track for Mirage. I absolutely prefer the SYW version to that.

I kinda agree with Mike. Not everything is a demo. Some are more finished tracks per say than just demos. I believe that IYWML and SAY from Mirage are both finished tracks. I love both of them. I think of a demo as not having much instrumentation and well just doesn't sound quite there really. Maybe those 2 songs above aren't totally polished but I don't think they are demos either. I think of them as 'outtakes' more than a demo of the song. Just like the version of ' If You Were My Love' from Street Angel. To me thats an outtake/full version cut from SA. Heck some songs that we think are demos could really be outtakes. Now one of my favorite songs 'City Of Hope' thats cut off to me thats a demo but who's to say I guess. I so wish we had a full version of that song or It Takes A Long Time. Maybe they are full songs but since they both are cut or fade its hard to tell so I call those demos. I guess theres really no wrong opinion on the subject. Its all good really.
Personally, I don't care for Joan Of Arc, too me that song is just too repetative to me. The words are boring and well sorry I guess thats one song I just can't get into. Its nice to have it as an unreleased track but it does make me wonder if theres better unreleased than that one? :shrug:

I probably wasn't clear with my demo comment earlier. The 1981 Smile at You features all four members of Fleetwood Mac playing on it, which makes the "demo" label illogical. Nothing is being demo'd (other than perhaps in the loose sense of trying something out as a group to see whether it's effective). Ordinarily, Nicks or McVie records a demo in order to demo(nstrate) an idea for a song. The demo's audience is the rest of the band & its creative team.

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought Smile was tracked on the mixer. I don't think it was. It sounds like an everyone-playing-simultaneously session, which could mean any number of things.

I suggested the probability that Lindsey shaped the 1981 recording, but what I really meant was that Fleetwood Mac obviously shaped the performance. Their signature is all over it (pace Ken Caillat, who maintained that Mac never tracked it), which is why I don't view the 1981-vs.-2003-Smile debate as being one of Stevie Nicks vs. Fleetwood Mac. Both treatments are Fleetwood Mac treatments--the preference for one or the other comes down to which Fleetwood Mac treatment you prefer.

See my blog for clarification.

Agreed 110%.