Trouble in Shangri-la vs Say You Will
 

Hi everyone,

As all of us know Stevie's solo album Trouble in Shangri-la was released in 2001, whilst the Fleetwood Mac album was released in 2003. So both were released within a fairly short period of time.

My question is which of the 2 albums in your opinion is better?
You're answer must only be based upon Stevie's contributions regarding Say You Will.
So do you prefer the songs from Stevie's Trouble... or do you think the songs she contributed to Say You Will were better than her own solo songs??

Personally, I will be voting for Say You Will. If I have the choice between putting on either album it would be Say You Will. I think out of the 13 songs on Trouble there are really only a handful of solid Stevie songs: - ie. I personally think her best songs are Sorcerer, Planets - (note how both are actually old demo's), and one or two other are listenable.

For me i think her contributions to Say You Will are far stronger. I think Thrown Down and Everybody Finds Out are musically superb. Lyrically all of her songs are strong with the odd exception.
So for me Say You Will wins...

I hope this poll doesn't start any arguments... lol But i'm just wondering what other people's opinions are...

You Decide...

There's Trouble in Say You Will...
 

Hmm...

The production in TISL wins, by far.

The song choice for SYW wins, by far.

I'm totally in love with the following on TISL:

Trouble in Shangri-La
Sorcerer
Planets of the Universe
I Miss You
Bombay Sapphires
Fall From Grace
Love Is

I totally in love the following on SYW:

Thrown Down
Everybody Finds Out
Destiny Rules

That being said... I like and listen to both... But TISL wins out

TISL is my favorite album ever, it is just brilliant from start to finish. And while That Made Me Stronger is not a Love Is or Planets, it's still a decent enough song with a strong melody. SYW is my favorite FM album, mostly because it was my first. I've grown more fond of Lindsey's songs, but Silver Girl is still my favorite from the album :D

I think I agree in that respect with you Ooo Missionary ... The Production in TISL was better but I would argue that the song choices for SYW were better.

I say. TISL. See. I love evebry day. and the others.

SYW has.. therown down,. RRTG and that otnet one. but. TISL is amazing. I can even listen to the dude s and enjoy them. Wghile Silver Girls make me want to smahs things.

I'm going to vote for Say You Will, though it's not without disclaimers.

The production on TISL is better.
The vocals on TISL are better.
The songwriting on SYW is better.

Ideally, The songs on SYW combined with Planets, Sorcerer, Candlebright, Love Is, Bombay Sapphires, Fall From Grace and I Miss You in place of Silver Girlwould have made a superior album in my opinion. I think I'll make this playlist for myself when I get home from work.

TISL fo' shizzle. :nod:

There isn't a Stevie song on SYW that makes me go, "wow, this is among the best stuff she's ever done." TISL is full of those moments- "TISL," "Planets...", "It's Only Love," etc. It's frustrating because there were so many songs with potential on SYW that were completely botched by Lindsey. They seriously should have called in John Shanks to produce.

"I've never heard Everybody Finds Out :O But I'm totally in love with Illume,"

Here's a link for you Terra Rhiannon....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF0svqQR9k

I love this song... especially the build up to when Stevie practically spits out the lyrics, "When everybody finds out ... Don't you know" (repetition) - and how the strings build up!!!

It's TISL for me...so much so that, though I've heard Say You Will and (to my surprise) it appears in its entirety on my itunes...I would only be able to sing along with a song or two.

Something about this album just never grabbed me, whether it's the lack of Christine or the fact that "Peacekeeper" sounds in places like Simon and Garfunkel's "Kodachrome"...I think overall it's that packaging-wise and music-wise, it doesn't seem very "juicy." It's a little dry, unlike all my previous entanglements with the Mac.

TISL suffers from this dry blandness a little too (not nearly as badly), but still it's Stevie's best album since Rock A Little.

Here's a link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF0svqQR9k

I love this song... especially the build up to when Stevie practically spits out the lyrics, "When everybody finds out ... Don't you know" (repetition) - and how the strings build up!!![/QUOTE]

Oh thanks! That is a really good song!

This, exactly.

I'm almost having to choose SYW, simply because that is the album my dad bought for himself in 2003 while we were on vacation that got me started on Fleetwood Mac/Stevie!!!!

Both albums have major flaws, but both also have some great tunes.

Initially, I would lean toward Say You Will due to it being Fleetwood Mac and not just "studio cats" making the music. (How can you top John McVie's bass work on "Smile At You"?? That's right, you can't!) After hearing Richard Ashcroft's "New York", Stevie's "Illume" dropped a few notches on my list...they're almost identical, but Ashcroft's was released considerably earlier. If it weren't for the first two lines of "Destiny Rules", that was in the running for my favorite Stevie tune on the album...but, jeez, those first two lines just ruin the rest of the song. She sounds like Johnny friggin' Cash on those...and not in a GOOD way.

But, as far as Stevie Nicks solo albums, TISL, to me, is her best album through & through.

I have a couple of tweaks that would've made it better (for ME, that is):

add "Touched By An Angel" & "Thrown Down" (what has heretofore been referred to as the "wall of sound" version) and toss "Too Far From Texas" off the album and onto a single B-side.

I think TISL is a more even album-- I like most of the songs, and don't hate any. But while I will literally leap across the room to skip away from Silver Girl, I love almost all of Stevie's other songs on SYW.
I completely, totally adore Thrown Down, Destiny Rules, and Running Through the Garden. And I know Goodbye Baby and Smile at You were disappointing to many, but I think they're pretty great. Since I'm a newer fan and hadn't heard or loved the demos, I wasn't approaching them from the same perspective, I guess.

And I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think the production on SYW is aging better than that on TISL. Some of the songs sound a little dated, but most don't, to my ears.

TISL by a landslide.

All I can say about SYW is that I'm still waiting for my personal, hand-written apology from the guy that murdered Smile at You, The Tower and Running Through the Garden in cold blood.

These two albums are just so very different that I've never really even thought about comparing them. To me, I guess SYW is the better of the two, though. I'm on the other side of the coin from HejiraNYC (per usual!), but like he said, there are just no songs on TISL that can be ranked among the best she's ever done. However, I would stack Destiny Rules and Illume in the same ranks as some of Stevie's classics. The only song I even find myself listening to from TISL anymore is Bombay Sapphires. That song still just sparkles out of the speakers, while the rest of TISL just sounds murky to my ears. I think it's cool Bombay Sapphires is the only song of her own she's ever self-produced, too. Makes me wonder if Stevie might have a third act in life as a producer? Weirder things have happened...

I voted for Trouble, because her vocals are stronger and more passionate. I love Thrown Down, Running through... and Everybody..., but on some SYW tracks, her vocals are so flat and boring and non-committed (Illume, Destiny Rules, Smile at You, not to speak of the title track). Hope I didn't offend anyone now. :shrug:

trouble in shangri la for me but I love thrown down say you will and
illume. I know this does not factor in but the music videos for trouble we
beautiful but the ones for sale you will were so bland. plus my favorite show
CHARMED played I miss you now and planets of the universe on 2 of my favorite episodes which I loved.

The drudgery of working with Lindsey on a project that doesn't really interest her, I suppose.

TISL is all about continuum and flow. The songs collectively pull you in and take you on a journey, from beginning to end.

SYW is a collection of fragmented songs with no real connection between them. It's like a record with a lot of pops and skips.

I agree with most of this. More specifically I concur that "Thrown Down" should have never been thrown off of TISL (making that record near perfect) and John McVie really really shines on many of Stevie's SYW songs. Even if I don't love the overall arrangement and direction SAY ended with, Mcvie's bass is extraordinary and a highlight on Illume & Everybody Finds Out as well. Lindsey really shines on the guitar finale of Destiny Rules. I remember a critic referred to it as Fleetwood Mac meets The Smiths... I was like HELL yes!! Johnny Marr is a brilliant guitarist and The Smiths are one of my favorite bands.

But as a total package I had to vote for TISL. Sure I argue with myself thinking Stevie's SYW songs are a bit edgier, and I always wanted an edgy Stevie Nicks record. But I wonder how they recorded her vocals, or what they were hearing in playbacks. Were they all stoned?!:rolleyes: Cause Stevie sounds like she was smoking something... because to my ears her vocals are sonically razor sharp to the point of nails on a chalk board cringe worthy at times, and that ruins it for me in places. On the other hand her vocals on Thrown Down and even Silver Girl are nice. While SAY, EFO & Illume have great moments. But ultimately I've decided Stevie current voice requires delicate layers of production to make it palatable for the masses. This is what I'm hoping for on In Your Dreams. No T Bone for Stevie, unless she wants to go out with a total Johnny Cash or Marianne Faithful vibe.

In the future the only way we are getting another Fleewtood Mac record is if Lindsey & Stevie agree on using an outside producer & agree on the producer. And I think the odds are in favor of this happening. So then it will not be SYW pt. 2, instead they should pared down to hopefully 12 stellar tracks where they both can shine.

Funny I've been spinning TISL relentlessly lately. I used to not think much of it.....but it's growing on me. Some really great Tunes on that album. SYW....not much there at all. That album just frustrates me too no end. TISL has more of a classic Nicks feel Though. Trim off..for me.....Planets of the Universe, Bombay Sapphires, and Fall From Grace, and you've got a great album. Stevie needs to learn album trimming, but I digress. I also don't like the nose singing on TISL....Oh well. Getting warmer on that album though:thumbsup:

Mick

Lol I know:lol: I hated it...But I said....Mick Give it a go. You know when something for no reason clicks. Well it happened.:thumbsup: She better not crush me with In Your Dreams

Mick

I knew this would turn into the bash Lindsey again thread....:wavey:

Meanwhile, I LOVE Stevie's songs on SYW. I LOVE Illume, Running Through the Garden, Everybody Finds Out, Thrown Down, Say You Will, Smile at You, Not Make Believe and I've come to appreciate Destiny Rules and Silver Girl.

I don't think it's fair to compare this body of work with TISL because that was a solo thing and regardless of everyone saying how jacked up they think SYW is - I actually appreciate it more when I listen to the entire project together.

I think TISL is wonderful and I think the production on it was perfect for a Stevie solo album. But, I prefer her songs as a whole on SYW and admire the artistry behind the production of the SYW songs. Lindsey's guitar solo at the end of RTTG is by far one of my all-time favorites. Also, I'm always going to love their harmonies and I love that whole funky voice stuff in the middle of Illume and how she picks her vocals up right after that as if she's just totally overcome with the emotion and his voice echoing hers - very haunting vibe and perfect for the song.

I don't know why everybody hates on Smile at You. Sure, the demo was great...a hundred years ago when it was recorded. I appreciate the new lyrics and the mature perspective she brings to it in the SYW version though and again the vocal layering and the spanish acoustic guitar at the end is delicious.

Just love these songs!

TISL had too many producers. It was sorta a good try, but no dice. The title track + planets are memorable, but a lot of the songs had no presence whatsover.

Trouble in Shangri La is good but it is also boring at the same time. I rarely will flip to a song on my Ipod from TISL. If I do, I skip to the end of Fall From Grace, the choruses of Sorcerer, or the middle of Planets.

None of the songs can sustain my attention for very long. I think its a good album, just not great.

With that said, I'll vote Say You Will.

Louie, I usually love your insights, even though I don't always agree - especially on this point highlighted. Seriously, how can you not rank "Trouble In Shangri~La" (the song) & POTU among some of the best things Stevie has ever done solo or even in her entire career. The production on TISL is fantastic. The layered chorus is BRILLIANT and still gives me goosebumps. And the whole ending "You can consume all the beauty in the room BABY" Before the dawn of seperation"....is awesomely delicious and friggin' sonic masterbation IMHO:xoxo: I've seen some Ledgies say Stevie's vocals on TISL are dull. But I don't think thats necessarily so...She really sings TISL with conviction & passion! "It's Only Love" is probably my favorite Stevie vocal in the last 25 years! "Love is" has some real highlights vocally in the beginning and ending. And I feel every reflective and yearning emotion she conveys during "I Miss You". I could go on...... But I will give you Too Far From Texas....she definitely phoned that one in.:p And it's too bad cause that is a catchy nice little ditty, ruined in part by a uninspired delivery.

My intention isn't to bash Lindsey, since he's amazing in his own right. That said, I do think their best days of working together are long gone; their passion for making music together seems lacking on most - but not all - of Stevie's Say You Will material. On the other hand, Say Goodbye is great, for example and feels like a Fleetwood Mac song.

Well here is my take on TISL

TISL- was the best track on the album, great great chorus, the lyrics though were a little too cinematic, hard to follow what she was talking about

Candlebright - was good and atmospheric but for some reason Sheryl Crow managed to ruin it by using the mandolin.

Sorcerer - was nice, glad she went for the higher notes, no where near as the Marylin Martin version, ended up a little bland, it was ok

Planets - probably one of the most well written songs of her career was really good track, a little wordy, but defintely really good, unfortunately it lacked something that the slow version had, beauty

Everyday - a good song, great chorus, but too small, needed more presence.

That Made Me Stronger - gross

It's Only Love - great vocal, too small, doesn't stick in your mind, no presence

Love Changes - bland, no presence, should of been rock, not synthed out

I Miss You - great chorus, good song, the emotional core of the album that somehow ended up being bland and small

Bombay Sapphires - really good music, the lyrics are way too experiemental, sounds like a space-age love songs, the lyrics make you feel stupid for listening to it

Fall from Grace - really good rocker until you realize that Stevie is never going to shut up, there are way too many words in this song, she does not give the listener a rest

Love is - apparantly Love is very bland, no presence, anyone could of written this

That's why Trouble in Shangri is marginal to me. I have a problem with almost every track. The album fealt off too. You could tell that the songs were produced by different people.

I understand your view. It's just that I honestly wonder if Stevie had never said the recording wasn't a "happy" experience would her fans still have the same negative opinion about those songs? Unfortunately, we'll never know.

Maybe you're right about their working together - but I don't hear SYW like that. I felt it was a real masterpiece of a joint-effort. It was the first FM album I bought after becoming a fan and I was blown away by what I assumed at the time was a true artistic partnership. Honestly, as much as you felt there was no passion on SYW, I felt the exact opposite. My initial response was they were still relevant as a band and had proven it with that material. Just the way I interpreted it.

I thought Lindseys songs were stellar. Stevie had some moments, but I fealt that that was his album. I liked what she did on that better than TISL. The songs had more presence.

The thing about TISL vs SYW is this. TISL didn't have any particular songs which blew me out of the water, but as an entire work... it was probably one of Stevie's best. On the flip side, SYW had some *amazing* songs, but totally sucked as an album. My biggest beefs with TISL were Stevie's extremely lackluster vocals (for most, not ALL songs), and the production tended to be soupy in places (again, there are exceptions). Stevie had some stellar works on SYW, but they just seem like a jumbled, random hot mess when put together. I think Stevie still has the ability to easily do better both in quality of individual songs AND album quality as whole. Again, neither album is her best or worst career moment. At the same time, both were missing a bit of magic, too. That's just my opinion, though :wavey:

For me, there is no comparison - TISL by far. Believe it or not the only song of Stevie's I love on SYW is Everybody Finds Out. I really dig SYW, Illume, and Goodbye Baby but the others are mediocre at best in my opinion (not a huge fan of Thrown Down or Destiny rules. I don't know why, I'm just not). And Silver Girl? That speaks for itself...Lindsey's songs, on the other hand, are stellar! As some of you know I'm not a huge LB fan but Come, Murrow Turning Over in His Grave, and Say Goodbye are all brilliant! I mean, I love those 3 songs more than I ever imagined I could be capable of loving an LB composition! I listen to those songs far more than any of Stevie's on SYW.
TISL on the other hand, do I even need to go through each song? With the exception of That Made Me Stronger, I Miss you,Every Day, and TFFT the album is near perfection.

Louie, since none of the songs on TISL really amazed you, what are some of the songs on that album that you at least "like" or can "tolerate"?

I voted for TISL because I really do think it's a good album, granted I only really like 6 songs on it. I love the first 4 tracks, then I skip to "I Miss You" and "Bombay Sapphires".

I don't like her voice at all on SYW. The only song (Stevie song) that I really enjoy is "Running Through The Garden". I prefer the wall of sound "Thrown Down" from the outtakes of TISL than the version that ended up on SYW. I'm probably in the minority there. "Smile At You" and "Goodbye Baby" are okay but nothing special. "Everybody Finds Out" and "Destiny Rules" are GREAT songs (lyrically and musically)...but I don't like them because of her crappy vocal.

You know I Miss You I think was my biggest disappointment off that album. The chorus was great, it stuck in my head, I got the sentiment, I fealt the song... somehow though it sounded totally bland and small. Yet, I think that song and TISL stuck with me the most because it struck an emotional chord.

I adore Bombay Sapphires. It's in no way earth shattering or anything, but it's one of my all time fav songs regardless. I think Love Is is one of the most beautifully emotive songs she's ever written. When the album came out, Candlebright and Planets were my favs. I now think Planets is way, way overproduced... and her vocal on Candlebright is just plain lazy. I've pretty much stopped listening to TISL at this point, and only listen to mp3's of my fav SYW songs. Perhaps in time my opinions will shift on both songs. I know Rock A Little used to be my least fav Stevie album, and now it's one of my favs. So who knows...

Add another vote for the Wall Of Sound Thrown Down. I was so crushed when I heard the flat, skeletal, lifeless version that ended up on SYW. To me, the wall of sound version was the best Buckingham Nicks collaboration in decades.

To me, there's no contest. TISL is far stronger than Stevie's SYW offerings. If it weren't for That Made Me Stronger & Too Far from Texas, TISL would be a perfect album, IMO.

Stevie's SYW songs are just...meh. Over the years, I've come to find Thrown Down to be terribly bland. Say You Will desperately needed a 3rd verse. Illume is good, but that crappy "old lady voice" LB does at the end ruins the whole thing for me. I like what LB did with Smile at You, but the lyrics make me cringe. Destiny Rules is marred by that nasally vocal of Stevie's; and again, lyrically it's a bit weak. Goodbye Baby is...meh. Wasn't that thrilled with the demo, either. EFO, Silver Girl, and RTTG are prob. the only songs I have no problems at all with.