Originally Posted by bluefox4000 (Post 917366)

I think the it gets better project is wonderful. I can only hope it helps. the amount of gay teen suicides is devastating. I'm bisexual...so I know what it's like. Some people think being Bi would be easier. Nope. I went through a LONG period of confusion and depression. To the point of I wanted to just disappear. I just did not want to be me anymore. Cause at the time...being me hurt. Cut to July of 08. My wife stepped in and told me I did not have to face it alone. So I'm happy and in love now. So it does get better:nod:

Anyway that's my experience and i love this project.

I hope it helps.

Mick

Originally Posted by louielouie2000 (Post 917319)

^Thank you so much for taking the time out to post this.

Originally Posted by Artemis (Post 917377)

I think this project is an excellent idea, and even if it only helps one kid out there, then that's still a wonderful thing to do.

The blatant discrimination against homosexual males (in particular imo) in society is pretty sick, I always feel uneasy hearing little six year olds saying "that's so gay" because people are indoctrinated (perhaps too strong a word?) from an early age that being gay is a bad thing, that it's wrong.

I've dated both guys and gals, but, my friends I see day to day only know about the gals, as do my family. I LIKE being me (I'm fabulous ;D) but, I'm not gonna tell people I know until I'm ready, and strong enough to tell them to shove off if they try and give me any grief over it.

Originally Posted by greendaze5 (Post 917398)

Here's a very heartfelt response and plea from Councilman Joel Burns from Texas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax96cghOnY4

Originally Posted by bluefox4000 (Post 917366)

I think the it gets better project is wonderful. I can only hope it helps. the amount of gay teen suicides is devastating. I'm bisexual...so I know what it's like. Some people think being Bi would be easier. Nope. I went through a LONG period of confusion and depression. To the point of I wanted to just disappear. I just did not want to be me anymore. Cause at the time...being me hurt. Cut to July of 08. My wife stepped in and told me I did not have to face it alone. So I'm happy and in love now. So it does get better:nod:

Anyway that's my experience and i love this project.

I hope it helps.

Mick

Originally Posted by nailatixela (Post 917537)

Thanks for posting this thread, Zombie. And thanks to greendaze for that youtube link. That was a really touching video.



I so agree with this. I'm 18. Most of my life I didn't even realize there was a word to describe what I was feeling. All around me seemed to be a message that people are either straight or gay - and one is most certainly better than the other. So I too also suffered a lot of confusion, and especially a lot of suppression of my true feelings. I hadn't come out to anyone til recently. I didn't "come out to myself" as bi til just over the summer.

Artemis, I can relate to you too. I hope you are soon comfortable to come out to whoever you wish...you are strong enough! Send me a message if you want, it would be cool to talk. I'm very happy that I've come out to my mom, dad and brother. It was very hard. And there are still a lot of struggles ahead but I think I've gone through the worst parts. I've come out to a close friend, and a couple other friends, when it just happened to come up in conversation by chance.

But coming out to the rest of my family will be hard. My Mom is a moderate, my Dad is a real conservative, and I'm really happy I didn't have to go through any period of them rejecting me after I came out to them. I don't know how much exactly they support LGBT freedoms/causes, and I've also realized they really won't ever be able to understand what I go/went through. But they love me and that is what is most important. The rest of my family is very conservative. It's painful to hear them say things that show their support for bigots, or bigoted viewpoints, because that makes coming out to them that much harder for me, and everyone else who lives with such a family. I know they love me...but I know me being bi will come as a surprise to them, and I don't know how they will take it. Everyone I've come out to was surprised.

Then there is the attack on bisexually (especially on male bisexuals) from within the gay community. I've heard many comments on the invalidity of bisexuality, and general comments against bisexuals. Like how we don't really exist, or are just waiting to come out as gay. I've even seen these types of comments by gay members of this forum, and even at my school's gay straight alliance. Based on who they are coming from, this boggles my mind.

Sorry for writing so much! I don't mean to hijack the thread. But it's close to my heart, and I think the it gets better message is a really great one and I'm happy there is a discussion about it.

Originally Posted by nailatixela (Post 917537)

Then there is the attack on bisexually (especially on male bisexuals) from within the gay community. I've heard many comments on the invalidity of bisexuality, and general comments against bisexuals. Like how we don't really exist, or are just waiting to come out as gay. I've even seen these types of comments by gay members of this forum, and even at my school's gay straight alliance. Based on who they are coming from, this boggles my mind.

Sorry for writing so much! I don't mean to hijack the thread. But it's close to my heart, and I think the it gets better message is a really great one and I'm happy there is a discussion about it.

Originally Posted by louielouie2000 (Post 917542)

Regarding the whole bisexuality thing, I know how tough that is. My first bf was bi, and I've had quite a few bi friends. They've all said the same thing: they get the most sh!t from the gay community, surprisingly. I think that's unfortunate. It seems the gay community is hell bent on treating each other badly, and that's something I've just never got. The majority of the world hates our existence, why must we further divide ourselves? Whenever I see gay men being catty to each other about their appearance, etc it just enrages me. I just don't get it. We should all be judged on our behavior; how we treat ourselves and others. Nothing else. You'll find your comfort zone, and great people to surround yourself with.

Originally Posted by Nikolaj (Post 917550)

I admire the 'It Gets Better' mission, and if it saves even one life, that's great.
But, the truth is, in some ways, it doesn't get better. It's just the way the US culture sees gay men, unless you're in major cities like LA, NY and probably many others. Anti-gay slurs are one of the last acceptable forms of bigotry allowed- most everyone knows now to use the 'N' racial slur word, or make anti-Semitic comments, but the 'f' term for gay men - or used just as an insult to any man- is still a part of life that hasn't gotten better. For many, 'being tolerated' is as good as it gets, and really, who wants to be 'tolerated?'
Don't mistake me, it is a very good thing the organization is doing.
I've just lived long enough in the US to know that when you compare the progress made in the past 30 or 40 years in civil rights, womens rights and laws protecting children, homosexual men (and homosexual women) are still way behind, comparatively. Gay men and women pay the same taxes as heterosexuals, who can marry any person of the opposite sex they wish, if both are of legal age.
In many states, gays and lesbians still can't marry, or even get insurance for their partners. The US constitution says 'all men (implying women, as well) are created equal... with... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"--- Well, it simply isn't true that the US Constitution is upheld for 'all men' if gay men and gay women can't pursue happiness by getting married as any straight man can do, and yet the US allows it to continue. In legal terms, all that is upheld nationally is that all heterosexual men can pursue their lives, liberty and happiness.
The truth remains that many individuals and groups are still hell-bent on making sure homosexual men and women don't have the same basic rights as 'all men' who are supposedly created equal have, and it's just a question of human rights that should have been corrected ages ago and hasn't been.
But the teens do need hope, so it's great 'It's Get Better' exists, maybe it will help. I agree with Louie that you care less as you get older about what anyone thinks about you, but it's still a fact that it's not an easy road, especially if you really think about how far gay and lesbians have not come in being assured of basic human rights by law.

Originally Posted by Zombie (Post 917562)

Y'know, I get pissed off at the same behavior when I see women (straight or not) doing that to each other. "OMG, just because I'm a size 18 doesn't mean I'm not pretty or sexy, so why can't we just get real women in the fashion magazines instead of all those anorexic models that need to eat a sandwich?" Uhm, last I checked, supermodels aren't, like, Borg or something, so they're still "real women," whatever that means. And if you don't want people body-shaming you for your size, don't body-shame other people for theirs. Jeez. We have enough pressure on us from outside sources, why do we need to tear each other down in the process? Boggling.

Not trying to derail, just what you said reminded me of other similar annoying behavior.

Originally Posted by louielouie2000 (Post 917566)

I actually just had a similar conversation with a friend of mine recently. She was talking about how grating it is that people constantly tell her she needs to eat more, that's she's too skinny, etc. She thinks it's reverse discrimination... that she should be able to turn around and say to that person "you're too overweight, you need to eat less" etc. She's absolutely right... why is it ok to tell someone they're skinny and should eat more, but it's not ok to tell somebody they're overweight and should cut out the burgers? Either way you're commenting on somebody's body, and letting it be known you're not pleased with what you see.

Back on topic, body image was only partially what I was referencing in regards to gay men treating each other poorly. Fashion is a huge deal too (as it is for women too, no doubt). Gays can be downright vicious to each other about what other folks wear, their hairstyle, the cars they drive, where they live, and other inane crap like that. It's exhausting. It just seems like the dumbest thing in the world to be cruel about, especially since the majority of the world already hates us gay folk. Why splinter ourselves even more? LGBTQ folk should really focus more on unification and taking care of one another vs turning that same hate on ourselves. Moral is: appreciate variety... that's what keeps life interesting! :thumbsup:

Originally Posted by Kena (Post 917624)

To Zombie and others who spoke about bisexuality...

This thread really struck a cord with me, in a good "I need to share" type of way. First off let me say I have a way of sticking my foot in my mouth sometimes so please forgive me if I don't explain something correctly or I don't use a term in a people first way. I really really have all good intentions. This topic is something I have really needed to talk about because I have no one around here that understands this...

I had always dated men up until a year ago when I met a special lady. I knew she was open about being a lesbian but she was also very cute and neat and smart and I liked her from the start. Through her I got introduced to a lesbian community, not just an occasional friend or coworker here and there who was gay, or people I met at clubs... This was a small group of ladies who were professional and around my age (30 and up). Little did I know that it was some sort of special club and I wasn't ever going to be in it because I "liked the penis" and "just wanted a man's protrusion" and I "was a breeder" because I have kids and I was just going to run back to men and I could never fully love a woman. It was awful especially because I have always been best friends with girls and am used to being close to women. I have never been kicked to the curb and felt so betrayed by a group of people, especially women!

My girl, the poet in my heart (bet you can't guess her name ;) )stayed by my side and we did our own thing. She liked my kids. She and I had similar interests. We shared clothes, bought each other candles and scarf’s. I lurved this girl. Very much so. It was all very very precious to me until one day it was bad. Like throwing things and hitting each other bad. I finally had to break up with her and then it's "told ya she liked the penis and his protrusion.” Again, awful.

So what’s the moral of the story? I’m not exactly sure. Dating a lady seemed very natural to me and I did have a moment of “ah ha, maybe this is what my deal is with men and why I can’t find a man to date or that I want to be with.” It doesn't make me want to say I'm done with men though. Soooo does that make me bisexual? I guess if you have to label it. To me, it makes it seem like I'm just like a cat in the dark looking for action from anyone....see, that's not a good thing to say, but that's my hang up on things, my own frame of mind about something that I once knew nothing about but now have experienced. I am not ruling an entire gender out. I'm open, not open for business, just open to getting to know different people.

It's all very confusing and I appreciate all of you that have shared your own stories of frustration and confusion. I think the It Gets Better project is a wonderful thing. Based on my own experience I can only imagine how confused younger people are. I feel for a teenager who thinks taking their own life is the only answer. It hurts my heart.

Originally Posted by Zombie (Post 917674)

The tricky problem with the "reverse discrimination" idea your friend has is that being thin comes with inherent privilege that the overweight among us do not benefit from, and when a thin person says, "Well, I get concern-trolled, too, so my experience is just as valid as yours," they're wrong. This is not to say that thin people don't get hurt when someone tells them they're too skinny and they need to eat a sandwich, because it is not right that ANYONE be body-shamed, but, in general, thin folks don't experience the world the same way fat people do - a thin person can usually walk into any ol' regular clothing store and find many things that will fit, they are not overlooked for jobs due to weight, etc, etc. We each have to be aware of what privilege we may be benefitting from and use that to examine our experiences appropriately.

I say this because this question of privilege plays heavily into other areas of our lives, from discrimination due to race to discrimination due to sexual orientation to discrimination due to religion. And THAT is not to say that the struggle of the overweight is in any way as "serious" as people that experience racism or homophobia, but privilege plays a role in much the same way. So, that's why when I pointed out earlier that as a heterosexual, cisgendered woman that did experience harassment and bullying due to my general "weirdness" back in school, I STILL can't say that my experience is comparable to the harassment and bullying that GLBTIQ kids experience. Because it's just not. I have the inherent privilege of being heterosexual and cisgendered, which prevents me from being treated the same way. I was targeted as an individual, not a member of a larger community that has to deal with things that are both far more serious and directly impact the quality of life for that group as a whole.

All of that was just a long-winded way of saying - we ALL experience bad shizz in our lives at some point or another, but we experience it to different degrees and in different ways, and we must all work to be aware of our respective privilege. If I were to say that my high school experience is exactly like the high school experience of, say, a transgendered teen in rural Idaho, I'd be minimalizing and trivializing not only that particular teen's struggle, but that of the LGBTIQ community's struggle in general, as well.

Anyhoodle, I see what you are saying about the way some gay males treat others, and I did not think you were referring only to body image - I just used that as an example when relating my own observation. I am curious to hear your thoughts on why gay males engage in that kind of behavior, though. I know that women can behave much the same way, and I believe a lot of it has to do with the way we're taught to view ourselves through an objectifying, heterosexual, cisgendered male lens. I wonder if this behavior in gay males stems at least partly from that same source.



Thanks for sharing your story and experiences, cookie. I can almost hear your frustration and confusion through the screen here, and I'd give you a hug if I could. I am not sure if this will help you work through your "does that make me bisexual?" confusion or not, but I do not think we have to look at sexuality as a binary (gay or straight and that's that) or even a ternary (gay, straight, or bisexual, and that's that), but a more fluid spectrum of sexual orientation.

The binary or ternary view automatically excludes a ton of different people - for example, it doesn't make room for the asexual or the intersexed. And it doesn't allow for the person that doesn't feel or identify as homosexual, but meets one "special" same-sex person and falls in love (or lust) just that one time. So it doesn't have to be a "one or the other" situation - you can fall anywhere on the spectrum, and where you fall is just where you fall, and that's that.

Does that make sense? For example, I identify as straight, but back in the day, I did have a relationship with another girl. She was the first woman I had ever wanted to do that with and the last - I haven't met another chick that I would want to have sex with. That doesn't make me a lesbian or bisexual if I don't sincerely feel like I'm a lesbian or bisexual - it just makes me a straight chick that got it on with a girl once. And I'm reminded of something Margaret Cho once said about that one time she had sex with a woman on a lesbian cruise and then got all confused about whether she's gay or not - "But then I realized, I'm not gay...I'm just slutty. Where's my parade?" ;)

Originally Posted by Kena (Post 917889)

Thanks for my counseling session Anniewhoodles. Yes, you make sense. Lots of it.

I think the Margaret Cho quote just about sums it all up for me :nod: (Well only if gin or vodka are involved, which isn't much these days).

Ya know, after I typed my story I felt better, just getting it out helped. If I had been in this same situation 10 years ago I would probably be out of my mind right now. I am very lucky that I have a strong foundation and know this isn't the end of the world. I feel for younger people or any other folks that can't process this kind of thing like I can or have NO ONE, not even an internet buddy, who they can share with ;) . I can for a second see why people consider suicide...but it gets better! It's gonna take folks like us reaching out and putting a little bit of ourselves out there by sharing experiences and helping increase openmindness in order to make a difference...that's what It Gets Better is about.

Don't worry about me deary, I mostly wanted to share with people the way I was treated and talked about by the "mean" girls. I am strong. I am WOMAN hear me roar!!!!

Originally Posted by Zombie (Post 918538)

Oh lawdy, I hope I wasn't coming off like I was patronizing or lecturing you or giving an unwanted therapy session or anything. I confess to being somewhat doped on cold meds at the time, and that leads me to ramble, especially when it comes to issues like these. I will latch onto a few ideas and then I'm off.

But I am so glad you are doing awesome, and I hope that It Gets Better helps at least ONE kid. But hopefully many more than that.

Originally Posted by Kena (Post 918577)

I didn't think that at all! I am pretty darn good at patronizing and lecturing myself so I'm being totally honest (not that I'm a ol' lier other times!) when I say I didn't think that. My last comment on my post was meant in a "Hayyyy Girl, what's up" way. Think Niecy Nash.

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77 (Post 918583)

I think this project is a joke. Typical of Dan Savage. A friend of mine walked out on him during a speech he gave at my college, because Dan Savage insisted it was the duty of all gay people to come out of the closet. Some people aren't fortunate enough to have that as an option. That's the kind of presumptuous, classist perspective that Dan Savage continues to propogate in his disingenuous "It Gets Better" campaign--maybe for rich white gay men like himself.

I'm sorry, but gay people are just as cruel to other gays as homophobes are--gays kill each other with AIDS, gays use each other sexually, gays glamourize a lifestyle of self-destruction and drugs, gays establish unrealistic beauty standards, gays demand total subservience to the Gay Political Agenda, gays ostracize those who are different or unattractive or (among gay men) too feminine.

I'm sure much of this comes from an internalized, learned homophobia and persistent low self-esteem, but to pretend "It Gets Better" doesn't deal with the problem that when gay people survive the pain of adolescence and (often) small-town ignorance, they rarely find in the gay community or urban enclaves a protective, tolerant embrace that fosters kindness to each other and provides the tools to deal with a homophobic culture that exists outside of "small-town" American and is, in fact, PRODUCED in our cultural centers (from Harvard to NYC to Hollywood to DC).

To paraphrase Will Ferrell: "Dan Savage can suck it!"

ETA: I see I was being somewhat redundant to some of the sentiments expressed in the thread. So I'd also like to add that I'm annoyed by the celebro-centric nature of the campaign. All it does is raise celebrity as a value (another fallacy celebrated in Gay Hegemony) instead of the real value (pop) artists could provide: in making art that challenges hetero and homo hegemony. Do any of these people use their influence to promote or even distribute movies like those by Julian Hernandez? No. Because he's not favored by the media power centers, to which they insist you bow--if you want "it" to "get better."