US Health Care Bill Vote Today
 

Today they're voting. What do you all think of the bill???

Personally, with the whole notion of healthcare, I don't know enough to have a strong opinion, and don't really know where to look for a NON partisan description of it!!

My only real problem with it is that American can't afford it. It seems this is going to cause the declining spiral that America seems to find itself in to continue.

Plenty of other countries adjusted just fine ;) I personally don't see the need for debate. It seems to be obvious what should happen, health care should be a right, and free.

AMEN, brothers and sisters!

For me, its just frustrating how all Republicans are doing is downgrading the bill. Is it really that bad???????? What is their deal?

Health care isn't a right.

Hell, even happiness isn't a right. The pursuit of happiness is a right. But not happiness itself. That's up to you to go out and get.

I just don't understand why American people would want the government even more involved in their lives.

I agree. It isn't a right.

I do believe, though, that everyone should ideally be entitled to it. America, in the end, cannot afford it. They need to come up with a better system rather than pushing something for the sake of passing something. I think the protesters in Washington are a pretty big sign/indicator. I know everyone here is waiting for America to wake the f**k up. I mean that with love. ;)

Honestly, at this point I just hope something happens so I never have to hear about it again. I'm so sick of all of the headlines, bickering, and division. I don't care whether it passes or fails. In my opinion any healthcare overhaul is just smoke and mirrors if it doesn't include a public option... something which has been taken off the table months ago now. Of course, whenever this story blows over, the media will just move on to something else to beat to f-ing death, something to further divide Americans. :rolleyes:

Because it is necessary. Forgive my liberal ideals, but some people need help. I have health insurance, but that doesn't stop me from wanting other people to have it too. I don't need food stamps or anything like that, but some people really do. Just because the government helps out, it doesn't make us an effing communist, socialist blah blah blah country, like some think it does. And just how is the government so very involved in our everyday lives? But I digress, health care is free in many other countries. It is clear that our entire system is corrupt, and doesn't work properly at all. The reason we aren't getting it passed is because the health insurance companies (that **** Americans over everyday) have payed off the majority of the House of Representatives and the Senate. The Republicans that are against it, are the main ones being paid major bucks to feel that way.

This bill is just another element in a certain "agenda" which is on the road to turning America into something that our Founding Fathers would not be able to recognize.

I know I'm probably one of the only conservatives on here, but that's just my view. I won't say anything else on this thread. :)

Something I don't quite understand is people's fear of "the government." We are the government. Regular citizens who are your neighbors are "the government." The crazy dude who flew into the IRS office in Austin killed somebody's dad and husband. That poor man was just trying to put food on his family's table... he didn't even make policy! If you don't like "the government," V-O-T-E!! Run for office yourself. Write your legislators. Protest. Form citizen groups. Whatever. Or if the US is so horrific, and no longer supports your ideals... there are other countries which are glad to accept additional tax revenue from new citizens. I just don't understand people's fear and hatred of this vague, faceless, all powerful, evil "government." :shrug:

PS- This is just a random vent, I'm not directing any of this at anyone at all :p

That is truly part of the reason I left.

By all means, the Ledge is full of open minded, intelligent people. If you've got something to say, I know I can say at least I'd like to hear it :wavey:. I'm all for a spirited debate too, as long as we can all keep it on the issues, and not get personal.

Please forgive my generalizations (and keep in mind I'm debating for the sake of debating, not picking on you or any one person), but it seems conservatives always pull out the Founding Fathers card whenever new legislation is in the works. Do we really think the Founding Fathers would have wanted our country to stay stagnant, and not pass any new bills or laws? Would they not have wanted their country to stay current with the times, and evolve to fit it's current needs? The US has to stay competitive and attractive to it's ever more mobile citizens (and corporations, etc), or they will vote with their feet. Despite what many say, it's still vital for the health of our country and economy to attract new citizens as well. We've gotta keep adding to our tax base, or we'll go completely bankrupt (not that we're all that far off right now, but I digress...).

My 'husband' and I have considered the same thing for years ourselves, truth be told. We've entered an era of unprecedented divisiveness and hatred in the US this past 10 years. It just seems to be getting worse, too. I blame the media as much or more than partisan politics. It just seems everybody is so angry, all the time here these days. I dunno, maybe 200+ years on, the US is finally going through it's awkward adolescence. Perhaps this too, shall pass.

Well this bill has passed, I believe, lets see where this takes us...

Forced to buy health insurance...

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Stand up and be counted Democrats, this is your day.

See Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom."

Also, see Federalist Papers No. 10 & No. 51.

Thunderous applause is an overstatement. This whole year long healthcare battle has left absolutely everybody bloody and battered. I don't think ANYONE'S enthusiastic about it anymore (no matter what side of the isle you're on). I think everyone's just ready to have it in the rear view mirror so the country can focus on other issues. And I'm talking about Republicans, Democrats, Independents, whatever. Liberty dying is being a bit on the melodramatic side too... I can think of dozens of other laws, bills, etc past and present that did more to denigrate liberty than a healthcare bill. But again, I digress. :)

I just worry about the hidden costs in all of this that no one in Congress could imagine down the line.

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

The common thread in all of those suggests that the Founding Fathers themselves were against partisan politics, and especially partisan divisiveness... that it would eventually erode the very fabric of our country. And there's absolutely proof of that happening today. We saw it with the backlash to things such as the Patriot Act, and we're seeing it with this Healthcare Bill. Or are you picking another point out of those writings altogether?

Well Obama just made a speech about it, and he said that this reform will reduce our deficit by billions in the next decade, and a trillion in the decade after that.

+1. To me, that seems to be the much, much larger issue at hand. Seems it's being bypassed for ego. But perhaps I'm just too narrow minded to see the larger picture? :shrug: I'm not really for or against this healthcare bill... but I absolutely do think it's 110% the wrong time to be battling over it.

That is a misconception...

The French Health Care system (considered by many to be the BEST in the world, mind you) is going BROKE and is headed in a downward spiral if things dont change. Yeah - of course all of the citizens love and praise it, its amazing! but it can't work in the US for a number of reasons and mark my words, that we will be in a much bigger hole in the long run from this.

best bet is move to Canada?? :eek:

Agreed, agreed and agreed!

NZ has a pretty much similar system as we currently do here, right? I may be wrong

I think everyone is angry because they see the same change (for the worse) that so many of us see. I personally feel like I don't really recognize America anymore. That, or since I've gotten older - I'm just seeing it thru different eyes. In other words, seeing what was always there.

Case in point. My brother works for IKEA. I was visiting him in Atlanta last year, and I had just come into the store. He was drilling into (not wearing an IKEA uniform, mind you) some cabinets for a display he had designed. A woman walked right up to him (us) and said "How much is this?" while holding up some random designer bowl. There was no "Hello"... there was no "Excuse me"... no "Do you work here, sir?" ... Nothing of the sort. She then had the balls to yell at him for directing her to sales person! Manners, a very basic foundation of a good society, have gone right out the window.

And for Louie's argument - vote! Do what you can to change things! Well, some of us feel we've done our duty when we go vote for our senators and our President. But when you see something like this healthcare bill trying to get shoved through? It's quite plain that the politicians are not listening to the American people. (Am I wrong that the majority of Americans don't want this healthcare bill in it's current incarnation?) I'm also shocked that the whole of America hasn't marched on Washington (I expected full on rioting after the bank bailouts). I can't even watch the news anymore because it just makes me hang my head in dismay.

What to do? America, as I said before, seems caught in a spiral of it's own decline. The people do nothing, it seems out of apathy, or in my own case... The sheer mounting feeling that our voice no longer counts. While politicians grow fat... the crazies who control Iran are building nuclear weapons. While pedo priests rape our young men... We have the audacity to blame God (or at least those who believe in God) for contributing to the problem. Don't even get me started on that...

This is the same non-existent God, coincidentally, doesn't belong in our increasingly murder stricken schools. You know, I remember having silent prayer moments for schoolmates who passed and/or were sick, or dying even! That kind of prayer never hurt anybody from my recollection. I don't think the question is whether or not you should be offended by prayer in school in you are a non believer. I'm always of the mind left wondering if I even have the right to say a prayer. I think we're forgetting that the freedom to do such things is what made America what it is. It's the envy of the world for such reasons. Now? School shootings are almost a weekly occurrence. When I was in school (and I graduated HS in 1997) we never had to worry about knives, let alone guns. This dark cloud seems to have covered even the conscience of children.

But what do I know? I realize it's a whole hodge podge I've covered here and my brain was going to 10 places at once. At the end of it all, what I'm trying to say is... These problems aren't going to be solved by stuffing a mediocre, half-arsed health-care bill down the pipes. Hell, I dunno... maybe all I'm trying to say is that we should be less concerned about buying bowls at IKEA? Down with IKEA! :laugh: Whew. I've preached for the year. Don't expect any more rants from me. I'm sure you'll all be the wiser. ;)

I really do not believe all the "cooked" numbers.. only time will tell. The numbers kept changing and as with anything government related... the costs always seem higher than originally planned. But if this actually works out, I will eat my words, but doubt I will have to. Just a gut feeling I have we all will be paying for this in one form or another in the future.

I still do not know why they could not do this in smaller bills with some common sense thrown in. Oh yeah, we are talking about politicians and lobbying groups.. my mistake. :(

Healthcare is provided by the government for all people. It has its pros and cons. "Extra" healthcare is also provided by most employers for an extra bi-monthly fee. For example... you can go see your GP for about $30 and get prescriptions for a few dollars. With insurance, that allows you to go the hospital and not be put on a "waiting list." It's especially helpful if you require surgeries. I can't imagine needing a major operation here and having to wait for weeks, or longer, to get it taken care of.

I agree Sandy- this is not a self-sustainable plan in the least bit. A MAJOR tax increase would be necessary; like 25%... If the major pork were to be cut out of the current plan we could easily have the $$ to focus on the necessary fixes

I see... closer to the EU system than US. I know Pharma Industry practices are similar in NZ, but I wasnt sure about health care delivery

And I thought Obama said no tax increases for the middle class. :rolleyes::(
To be honest, nothing has changed with Obama's administration. It is all politics as usual.
The agenda just changed (one sided), both parties do it really. It is so sad politics has come to this. Where is the statesmanship, doing things in honest debate, and representing your constituents?

Embarrassing graph comparing America to other countries. The lines connect the amount spent on health care per person (on the left) with the average life expectancy (on the right).
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5...0c800wi.th.jpg


I think it is disgraceful how the bill was crafted to exclude everything big insurance and big pharma didn't want, but I still can't outright oppose it given that 45,000 people die every year due to lack of health care. link. It could have been a much better bill, but its more than the Republicans ever attempted when they had control.

This 45,000 people that die every year to lack of heath care.. that number was actually taken from a health poll done in the mid 1980's of people who had no health insurance and they just assume they never got any insurance now in 2010. Plus what about the thousands of people who die every year who actually have health insurance? Just because you have it, does not mean you eventually do not die.

My sister in law had health insurance and she died of cancer last year.

Agreed. The best thing I can say for Obama at this point is at least he's a good public speaker, comes across as highly intelligent, and isn't as Us vs Them/scorched Earth when it comes to foreign policy (thus far). All of that is a big improvement over his predecessor. Otherwise, it's truly hard to distinguish him from GWB. Because he's just as bad about ignoring the moderate majority that is America, IMO and he's just as bullish with his very partisan politics. I'm not saying I'd have wanted McCain over Obama at all (the very thought of Palin being VP would be disastrous for our country), but I held higher hopes for at the very least, his style of carrying out his office. We'll see though... presidents tend to really show their true selves once/if they're elected to a second term. Maybe he'll end up surprising everyone for the good after all.

Which is why the people with health insurance are the main reason for reform. I'm ready for the backlash, but how many people watched Michael Moore's documentary Sicko? That definitely opened my eyes quite a bit. People are actually marrying other people in Canada so that they can illegally get free insurance there. Mostly people with cancer that don't get enough coverage. There was one story he shared, of a woman whose child was running a fever of 104 I believe. She takes her child to the nearest hospital, and that hospital claimed that her insurance wouldn't work there. They told her to go to the hospital across the city in order to have her child get treated. Well, her child died on the way to the other hospital. I'm sure there are plenty of other cases just like this one. And whether or not this bill is perfect, it is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, politics are indeed greatly corrupted, however we have no other choice in the matter but to allow them to do as they please. Protesting may work, but not too many people will do it. I have no idea why, but they won't, especially the minorities.

Good point, I really did have high hopes for Obama, I just know that because he made all these wonderful promises to anyone who threw money at him, he is bound to make someone angry that does not agree with the way he makes his decisions. I mean, look at NOW, the women's org that is now mad at him because he is going to make an executive order making sure no federal money is spent on abortions, which makes the NOW org mad.

I really do feel for Obama, this is what happens when you campaign on such huge promises to a lot of different people and groups. I know all politicians do it, it just seemed so transparent and "in your face" than normal.

I really do believe America is more Center than what all the very left liberals would like to think. or even the really right conservatives. I think center is a good place to be. I was always brought up on listening to what the other side of debate is and to not think of life as black and white or liberal vs conservative. Life is too complicated for that kind of strict thinking. Being too far to one extreme is never a good thing for a country.

I think come November there will be a lot more republicans voted into office to balance this Congress out.

Yes. medicine, seemingly, is supplied based on need and not to turn a ridiculous profit. My wife takes Voltaren (for her lupus). It costs us $3 a month as opposed to $25 a month (that's with insurance) in America!

Don't get me wrong... I agree... but what has Biden done for us really?

I saw an interview with Ted Nugent who made a GREAT point: when you introduce fear into society, they will listen to whatever you tell them in hopes of a brighter future. And Obama, being the charismatic candidate and great speaker he was and along with his celebrity backing, had all the right words for everyone. Granted, he is a RAGING Republican- but I think he hit the nail right on the head.

I'm sorry about the loss of your sister. I'm sure that was devistating.

I bet having health insurance was a comfort for her, knowing she didn't have a high monetary price to keep herself alive, and knowing that her loved ones would not be stuck with the hassle of paying enormous amounts of money after her death.

I'm sorry I had to use your sister as an example.

Here in Massachusetts we have Universal Health Care. I never had health insurance until this was implemented and being able to utilize it has greatly improved my overall health because I can now practice peventive health care without worrying about cost. Cost alone, was enough to keep me from getting some of the help I needed.

I'm sorry, but if you don't think Michael Moore spins things out of control in EVERY movie he has made, then I have news for you.....