Nobody does it better....
 

Nobody arranges and produces SN's songs anywhere near as well as LB. At least, that's the way it seems to me.

Agree or disagree?

Agree. Definitely. I wish he had produced TISL.

Completely agree. Say You Will proves that beyond a doubt. It's her best music since Tusk.

Everybody Finds Out shows both SN and LB stretching out in exciting ways.

Don't agree! I offer up "Smile at You" and "Silver Girl" as evidence. :eek: "Desiny Rules" was a great song that was poorly executed- it should have been done in a higher key and with a stronger vocal. Ditto "Say You Will." One of the primary roles of the producer is tell the artist whether something is or is not working. Songs like "Welcome to the Room... Sara", "When I See You Again" and "Silver Girl" should have definitely been aborted.

I think Stevie's best collaborators, by far, have been Jimmy Iovine and John Shanks. Stevie's worst collaborators have been Rupert Hine and Mike Campbell tied in first, with Sheryl Crow close behind. I think Lindsey is somewhere in the upper middle of the spectrum.

I agree with this.... great points... I'll even say that Lindsey could stand to use a producer himself at times..

Nothing Iovine or Shanks produced or orchestrated for Nicks is anywhere near the inventiveness & quality of GYPSY or DREAMS -- or SEVEN WONDERS, for that matter. Lindsey's well seems to me to have run dry, but there was a time when he perfectly complemented her goofy words & passionate singing.

I agree that at one time Lindsey was the magic maker for Stevie's songs. That time period would have been 1975-1982. Since then, I think he's hurt her more than helped her. Just listen to her Tango In The Night tracks... aweful. Her Say You Will tracks aren't much better. Just listen to the original Thrown Down from her solo sessions with Lindsey (aka the Wall of Sound version), and see how much better it is than what ended up on Say You Will. Same goes for Smile At You and Silver Girl... also MUCH better as DEMOS than what ended up on Say You Will. I do just ADORE Destiny Rules though... one of their better collaborations EVER! :thumbsup:

I don't know... I just think Lindsey maybe has a talent for bringing out Stevie's true self in her songs. When she was at her creative pinnacle and was soberish (1975-1982) Lindsey definitely brought out her true talent and polished it to a sheen. When she started to go downhill creatively and personally (1985-?) he certainly had a talent at showing she was drying up. If Stevie gives him strong material to work with, he can do great things. If what she gives him is less than great, he showcases that as well. Case and point, Stevie's voice certainly had weakened by the time of Say You Will. Instead of trying to hide that behind vocal layering and such, he just left her vocals mostly bare and put it right out there (ala the SYW Thrown Down vs the Wall o' Sound version). Sans Destiny Rules, he just left her voice bare and unadorned... no layering, no cave-ish echo, he let it be known her range isn't what it used to be, she's more nasal, flat, etc. I don't necessarily think it's a form of revenge like she's suggested, but I think it's instead his way as an artist of capturing a moment in time, much the same way a photographer would do (no painting vs movie jokes!!! LOL).

I agree wholeheartedly. Rhiannon, Dreams, and Gypsy would all undoubtedly have been lesser songs without Lindsey's creative, quality, memorable production.

-Matt

yeah right,
like if ms Nicks would have any collaboration left on Tango. She was just Bad those days.

I think Silver Girl would have been dropped if Lindsey did NOT have had his time off from the band. He just wanted to be there too much.

depends on the song? I think Gypsy, 7Wonders, Storms, GDWoman, were great in their final arrangement. PRevious demos are not so good. In those cases, Lindsey was great.

But Stop draggin, Stand Back, Leather&Lace, were really great too, and I don't know if Lindsey could have done better

I definitely agree with you on "Gypsy"- the proof is there when you listen to the finished FM version vs. the solo versions produced by Iovine, which I think are pretty much unlistenable. And I also agree re: "Dreams," which is so simple in structure that it is incredibly difficult to pull off effectively, yet Lindsey does it. I would add "Sara" to that list as well. As for "Seven Wonders," I suspect this is one of those songs that pretty much came to Lindsey in finished form (e.g., SYW) since it sounds more like a Sandy Stewart song (with it's big brassy synths) than something Lindsey would normally produce.

I'm not sure if the well is dry as much as Lindsey has pretty much decided that he's had it up-to-here with trying to give shape to Stevie's raw material. I'm sure it can be pretty painful for him to sit there sifting through her crudely rendered demos trying to look for the diamond in the rough when everything looks like coal.

I actually think "Juliet"/"Book of Miracles" would have been interesting if they just kept working at it; the demo is rockin'! And it would have been interesting to see how Lindsey would have approached "Battle of the Dragon" (one of her best songs ever, IMHO), which was released just before TITN. And I do love what he did with "Joan of Arc," even though it is definitely one of their more bizarre collaborations. It's just a shame that Stevie's two weakest songs from that era ended up on the album!

As for her SYW songs... I suspect that without Christine there to help massage egos and provide diplomatic assistance, Stevie's ego must have been out of control, which probably resulted in Lindsey being reluctant to tell her when things were not so good. Her self-comparison to Bob Dylan was quite telling...

Oh, kind of like Kristen captured him for the GOS album cover.

Michele

Well, he acts like he recognized Thrown Down as a diamond and he thought he mined it, but others disagree.

But what you said about demos reminds me of Stevie: "Your songs are like beautiful, hand crafted Russian boxes with enamel and cloisonne and sound like you've worked on them for seven years, and my little songs are like pine boxes."

I guess it was hard to avoid hurt feelings on both sides, even though I think they both pulled punches during the recording process. That little clip we got (VH1 All Access, maybe?) that never made it into Destiny Rules, was the most interesting thing I'd seen from the making of SYW where she's going something like, "I knew you wouldn't like that song, because I wrote it" and he says, "It's not because you wrote it. It's the song." I wish we could have seen that whole exchange and some of their song by song struggles.

Same thing with him. I'd have liked to see the band (either all 3 of them or the men before Stevie got there) deciding which of his GOS songs would be good for the FM album and which they didn't want. Although, since he got Come, Murrow, and Red Rover maybe the band didn't participate in making the GOS selections after all.

Michele

I pretty much had a big reply to this all written out, and it resembled everthing thats already been said, so I will say this;

Lets just wait and see in a few months, shall we...;) I have a feeling Stevie's songs will have no problem being great without the help of Lindsey, no problem at all.:nod:

I think that musically Christine was the only one who could stand up to Lindsey because he does respect her abilities as a musician. I always think Lindsey pushes Christine slightly farther than she wants to go (a good thing) and she reins in the worst of his excesses (another good thing)

Having another view on a song would undoubtedly have helped and perhaps Stevie wouldn't have said that her demos were better than the songs that appeared on the album

Gail

Agree 100%. My wish has always been that he produce an entire album for her.

BUT I don't think she was comparing herself to Dylan in terms of the quality of their writting skills. She was trying to make the point that he has a very unique style all his own just like she does.

I think she just stinks either way.
:p


I would agree. Tusk= her best stuff ever.

And for those of you complaining about what he did to her SYW songs, I have this to say: listen to his stuff on that album (if you can). He butchered almost all of his songs on that album and returned the favor to Stevie as well.

Disagree- Trouble in Shangri-la was her best work since after Tusk. Sorry, but Stevie's best work was BellaDonna, and TISL. Neither of which had anything to do with Lindsey.

I don't get the hate for Smile At You or Thrown Down. The first time I heard SAY I loved it and I still do. I think it's a great song and a great production. The demo is good as well but I don't like it as much as SYW version. I love Lindsey's SYW production and the real edge that it has. It's a bit more suited to his solo style than the classic 70's FM vibe but I don't think it doesn't work on Stevie's stuff. Personally, I think he did a great job and the only main production flaw (and I guess it's a pretty major one) is that he didn't lock Stevie in the vocal booth until she didn't sound like she was bored to be there.

Lindsey's last genuinely interesting contribution to Stevie's songs was during the Tusk era, ending with Fireflies. I like her tracks on Mirage but this has more to do with her songwriting and vocal ability than his rather prosaic production of them.
Whilst I'm willing to concede fault on both sides regarding the uneven Tango material, a perfect example of his unsuitability as a future producer for her was the lame-arsed realisation of Twisted. He fair sapped the life out of it, save for a strong vocal from Stevie.
I won't comment at length on the Say You Will sessions as I have many times in the past suffice to say that they no longer seem to be complimenting one another. I think his intentions were honorable but his work on her material was for the most part only satisfactory, never inspiring. He didn't seem to understand the original vision of her songs (Smile At You, Running Through The Garden, Goodbye Baby), too often favouring an overly masculine, insensitive approach to proceedings. As for Stevie, well her vocals were inconsistent to put it mildly, ranging from deeply passionate (Smile, Running, Goodbye) to just plain bored (Say You Will, Destiny Rules). It's difficult to gauge whether she was disinterested or if Lindsey was too intimidated or wary to push her further. His cut and paste theory doesn't always bear fruit - compiling the best bits of uniformly flat, monotone takes ain't gonna magically transform the situation. I guess it's hard to say whose fault it was but I suppose it's fair to lay the blame at both their feet.
As for future collaborations, well the two of them may still be able to cut it in the studio and I believe Lindsey's idea of "writing from the ground up" could be their best bet.
For my money, I wish for Stevie to hook up with Rupert Hine once more. I am one of the few people on the planet that adored The Other Side Of The Mirror but taking that album out of the equation, bear witness to his comparatively understated, subtle production on Suzanne Vega's Songs In Red & Gray album - truly a thing of beauty. Now this is what Stevie needs at this stage of her career. I'm sure you'll all agree...

I think Thrown Down is exceptional. I also enjoy Smile At You as much as the demos. I think Silver Girl was produced well, but was unsalvageable. I don't like the song and for it to run back to back with RTTG is quite unfortunate. I don't think much of RTTG's production. I think it could have sounded much better -- and shorter.

I think EFO stands out. In fact, along with Thrown Down and Miranda, those are my 2 favorite songs on the album and EFO is a departure for them.

I think SYW, Illume, and Destiny Rules all came out well. Although I don't have the love for DR that many do. Actually, I didn't really like DR in concert until the end. They tried to mix the closing vocals up a bit and that sounded better than the rest of the song did to me. I think I would have liked to hear that arrangement on the studio version. Indeed, what they experimented with on stage made me want to hear the studio version with Christine's vocals, because the stage version, really tried to take advantage of the additional singers at the end. It was just at the end where it sounded like Stevie might take off and start adlibbing that the song ended.

I actually think she should try DR solo, if that makes her feel freer to put an inspired ending on it like she does with GDW and HSML.

Michele

It may well have to be your money--because I don't think anyone else would pay for it.

I think Lindsey and Stevie have always added a lot of magic to each of their songs..

I listen all the way back to Buckingham Nicks.. The perfection of "Long Distance Winner" .. "Frozen Love" .. and "Don't Let Me Down Again" ..

Then of course.. Rhiannon and Landslide have a special Lindsey Buckingham sound in the guitar that no one else can capture exactly..

Stevie's voice has always added a lot, to me, to Go Your Own Way ..and Lindsey gives Dreams a vibe that I can't really describe..but it makes it incredible.

Listen to the Sisters Of The Moon piano demo and then to the album version .. again incredible.. Ah, let's not forget Sara - I especially love the sound of Lindsey's playing on the live version from the Fleetwood Mac Live album.

Gypsy, Straight Back... I can just always recognize Lindsey's sound on Stevie's songs.. I love Stevie's solo stuff just as much.. and I love Lindsey's solo stuff just as much as well.. but the best music seems to come from Fleetwood Mac as a whole.

Say You Will was an awesome album to me.. The classic Lindsey-Stevie sound was so apparent, and Mick and John were right up there with them.

Thrown Down takes me right back to Gypsy with a somewhat lonely guitar..and gorgeous vocals. Say Goodbye is gorgeous too.

I could go on and on. I don't love everything they do, of course, but I've always love Say You Will.. The only songs I feel like could be dropped from it are "Miranda" and "Bleed To Love Her" .. but I still really like those songs.. I would have liked it if "Not Make Believe" was on there.. and also a Fleetwood Mac version of "Down On Rodeo" .. "Flying Down Juniper" .. or a full mac version of "Wait For You" ..

I definitely think Lindsey and Stevie and the rest of the mac are still cohesive and creative right now.

I would. I love Mirror. Very consistant tracks from start to finish. this work sounds like a grown up Stevie.

Ew. I hate it. I don't pay attention to songwriting anyway (because when I do pay attention, all I see is garbage like "There is no fire burning/It's just a soul crying")--I just listen to the abstract sounds. A pop song has to sound groovy & cool & hooky. It has to be a sparkly little jewel. It has to sound wispy & savvy & ripply & sneedy.

You don't pay attention to the song writing? I don't want to sound like a jerk but that seems to kind of... take a lot of weight out of your opinion. And then with all the.. "It has to be.." "It has to be.." Um.. Alright.

"Mirror" is not one of my favorite albums by any means.. Although I do think it has some great songs..and I happen to think it has a lot of enticing lyrics.

"There is no fire burning/just a soul cryin" (or however it is, exactly..) has always been a nice lyric to me..speaking from the point of view of someone who DOES pay attention to songwriting (the lyrical side, I mean..)

Yeah, the lyrics sounds nice, in an abstract way. But does it have any sensible meaning?

Many times I would say there is not. But on this particular song, I think yes. I mean, it means different things to different people, because it is so abstract.

Looking past Stevie's literal explanation about the fire in her house where she had to run around and decide what to take, her cashmere blankets or her cats, I have sometimes compared these words to a relationship. When you're in its throes, you think it's passionate, exciting, all-consuming. But when you step back or it runs its inevitable course, you can see it was just something you rushed into to stave off loneliness. The emotion was not real, but manufactured out of desperation, to fill (feel) a void. There was no real fire burning, no genuine passion, just a soul yearning for love, just a soul crying.

Michele

Michele, your prose explanations of Stevie's "poetry" are consistently more appealing & sensible than their object ... to the point that if we create stanzas out of your posts & add some funky punctuation, we'd get a much better song.

Well, I had to run around
And decide what to take ~~
My cashmere blankets
~*~ Or my cats ~*~

Well, when you step back
Or it runs . . .
Its inevitable course *~*
Well, you can see
It was just something . . .
You rushed into . . .
To stave off loneliness

The emotion ~*~
Was not really real ~*~

Well, it was manufactured . . .
Out of my . . .
OOH . . . desperation ~~

Besides Lindsey, my favorite producer for Stevie is Stevie herself. I wish she had more confidence in her own abilities. Doubt me? Just listen to her songs Desert Angel, Battle of the Dragon and the dance remix version of The Nightmare. These three incredible songs were produced by the Queen herself.

When I first heard those lyrics, I was pretty sure I understood exactly what she meant.. which Michele has summed up.

I like it.



Vivfox, let's not forget Bombay Sapphires.. I like what she did with it. Although, the alternate version is better.

Well ok but what about this: Just a fantastic song all around, I love the lilting yearning aspect of the whole thing and her pleading about knowing it is way too dangerous to fall in love again, well, just wow.

And the rain was there...
There were many nights...
And a few of them, were all that you had dreamed of
Love was the thing...
And you feel as if someone was following you
But you know you are wrong...
It's just the ghost of what you want to be
And the ghost of the past that you live in


It's just the ghost of what you really want
And it's the ghost of the past that you live in
And it's the ghost of the future you are frightened of
So you look to your guardian angel


So long ago I was an innocent...
It had nothing to do with age
One day they were lovers...one day they were friends
There was nothing else to say


Well just the ghost of what you want to be
And the ghost of the past that you live in
It's the ghost of the future that you're so frightened of
So you turn to your guardian angel


And a few of them were all that you really dreamed of
Love was the thing...
So the silver-haired girl looks for escapism


To feel the empty spaces she's feeling
She depends on her music like a husband
And she knows it's no good to fall in love again...
One day they were lovers...one day they were friends
There was nothing else to say

**(In Bold above being the best stanza in the poem)**

It's just the ghost of the past of what you want to be
And the ghost of the past that you live in
Ghost of the future that you're so frightened of
So you look to your guardian...


So you look...to your guardian angel
Some of them are here on earth...
Well some of them are way up there in heaven...


So you look...to your guardian angel
Some of them are here on earth...
Some of them are...way up there in heaven...heaven...

I wouldn't exactly hold up "Desert Angel" as an example of brilliant production- that one is definitely something that should have either been scrapped or given to someone like John Shanks, who seems to be able to polish any turd given to him.

I think a better example of Stevie-the-producer is "Bombay Sapphires." I realize she was (rather blatantly) going for a Sting-like sound, but I'm still impressed... the addition of the Spanish guitar parts is brilliant, especially when you compare it to the "funeral dirge" version. I think Stevie is probably pretty confident in herself as a producer; however, she seems to pick up the reins only when all else has failed. Since she is not a very refined musician, she probably has a more difficult time rendering her ideas into sounds, so I suspect she would rather just leave that side of the process up to the experts.

I think you're missing a "baby" or two. :p

And I liked the contrast of big and small. You know, there's no fire burning, no major catastrophe that the world would care about, just my own personal disaster, just a soul crying.

It reminds me of how you feel when there's a tragedy in the family and the world goes on as if nothing is wrong while, meanwhile, your life has been changed forever. So, it's nothing big or earth shattering to anyone else. It's small, individual pain, but just as devastating to you as if it had been a national event.

The way Stevie sings the words make me think of that. And Rooms on Fire is great too.

Michele

Yeah, consistently horrific. What a piece of excrement that album is. ("Rooms On Fire" excepted)

Yes, and Stevie realize it. At the Classic Albums- Making of Rumours video she says that Lindsey did great work with her songs but only.. "when he was... when he was happy with me", so she felt that not always happened.