Storms - Dennis Wilson
 

I have just about read the book now. (We got it a bit late in the UK)

According to CAH Dennis told Christine, after a big fight, that he had slept with both her and Sarah Recor. CAH claims this never happened.

Dennis did sleep with one of Lindsey's girlfirends though, didn't he?

Anyway I still cannot believe that Christine was involved with Dennis Wilson. What was she thinking about :confused:

I do like the story about Christine's granny knickers. :lol: but on the whole I got bored with the constant stories of the drug taking and especially her portrayal of Lindsey as the grand producer of the music as if no-one else had part in the production of the albums. What was Christine doing then, sitting there saying nothing and letting him get on with it?

Gail

I don't know if Lindsey ever called out CAH specifically, but I think when he says GF he is referring to her. He was with CAH when Dennis and Christine started seeing each other and it continuted up until after his death. CAH says that Lindsey believed her back then, but she has no idea why Lindsey changed his tune years later. That's another case of two different sides, along with their breakup.

The Christine story was really funny though :lol:. As for her being with Dennis. CAH speaks about his remarkable charm, his good looks and how it was hard to be mad with him. So maybe that's what captured Chris :shrug:

I suppose that must be it. She does have a remarkable talent for picking men that can't keep it zipped up or as CAH says "can't keep it in their pants"

Gail

I was a little surprised that she said she hadn't slept with Dennis Wilson, only that they were very good friends. Dennis was a womanizer & it is a little hard to believe that he would be "just friends" with any woman.;)

I thought the book was pretty interesting. I didn't find it boring at all. It was a bit more detailed & gossipy than Mick's book, which made it interesting.:D I tend to believe much of what she wrote. I have no reason not to. I don't think she portrayed Chris in a negative light. It sounds like she really did like her. Lindsey certainly came off looking horrible. The abuse didn't really surprise me since it's been hinted at by others before. The episode that CAH described at Christine's house between Lindsey & CAH is scary, to say the least. There must be something about Chris' house that makes Lindsey go a little crazy, what with this episode & the later Tango scene.;)

Regarding Chris, I liked the Granny Knickers story & Chris' reaction to Lindsey's Tusk look.:laugh:

By the way, I wonder if Chris has read the book or if she even knows the book exists.

That was annoying. Of course, we know it wasn't true.:D

This book was so much fun to read... I thought it was well written and very informative from CarolAnne's perspective...

I too thought the incident at Chris' house sounded really scary.

the book does have the ring of truth about it. for one thing Lindsey's lawyers would have been all over it like a rash if there were false allegations. Christine is portrayed in a generally positive light

I just got fed up with all the drug taking. It's a wonder they're all still alive!

All the members of FM (past and present) seem to be keeping very quiet about it. As far as I know no-one has made a comment about it. I would hazard a guess that Christine hasn't read it but I bet she knows about it.

Gail

I didn't know about Dennis using Christine financially too. I guess I just always assumed that he had royalties from the Beach Boys, but that doesn't go far when you have an expensive drug habit.

The way Carol described Curry made you wonder what people saw in him too. He might have been good looking, but if he was going to brag to everyone about all the women he'd slept with -- right in front of those women -- that rather tarnishes his allure.

CAH says Christine lied about who she wrote Oh Daddy and Songbird about, but I don't think that's the case, because Christine didn't seem to be evasive about Curry.

I also found it interesting that Sharon and Ray went out, since we've seen both of them on tour with Fleetwood Mac for a long time.

With the burden of proof what it is in these cases, lawyers can't weave silk out of straw. Unless you have objective evidence that something is untrue, you can't sue over something like this and win, when it comes to public figures. Private people have more power because they can sue for just invasion of privacy or for being presented in a false light and they can show damage (a necessary element of defamation). But celebrities are fair game. In most cases, the bad publicity doesn't damage them (sometimes it HELPS their career) and they also have to prove "actual malice." A private person wouldn't have to show malice, but if a public figure can't show that someone lied about them with malice, then they don't have a case.

That's why the tabloids are seldom sued. And it's hard to prove that something is untrue, when it's just he said vs. she said. If you can show you were never arrested and have no police record, were in London when they said you were in Paris or have some other hard proof that you didn't do what they said you did, then I guess you have a shot. Otherwise . . .

Most of the events Carol described with Lindsey happened when they were alone. There are no witnesses. The one at Christine's house is a rare exception. I guess if Lindsey's lawyers could get Christine to swear that Carol was lying about that, he would have a case regarding that one. In situation, that would be the words of 2 against one.

Carol also said he started strangling her at an Elvis Costello concert, but that everyone there thought he was hugging and caressing her and complimented her on what an attentive boyfriend she had and how in love they seemed. I believe those are the only 2 times she said he was violent with her when others were around.

Michele

I agree that it's difficult to proove when it comes down to one person's word against another. However if that incident never took place then I'm sure Christine would be prepared to say so - in court if necessary. I doubt if CAH would have dared make that up when she mentioned that there was a witness.


Gail

I agree. Maybe Lindsey's lawyers had already verified what happened at Christine's house by checking with Chris. Hence the incident is in the book. And that last violent episode sent CAH to the hospital. It would seem that medical information would be easy to verify.

I once skimmed through a biography of Dennis Wilson, concentrating mainly on the 2 or 3 years he was with Christine. They seemed to suggest Christine used the drugs to keep Dennis with her. I knew he used her financially - didn't he once wreck her Rolls Royce to the point it had to be written off. (I don't know if that's a term you use in the US but in the UK it means the insurance company decides it's beyond repair)

Gail

In the U.S. we use "total" -- as in, that car was totalled in the accident. It's short for a "total loss."

As for Chris and Dennis Wilson, all I can say is Chris is much better off with nobody than she would be with Dennis. What a shame that someone as talented as he was would throw his life away by using drugs.

I have no intention of reading this book, but I'm glad for threads like this one that keep me informed on what it says about Christine.

I found the book reasonably interesting although I got fed up with the way she portrayed herself as the "country girl" led astray by the wicked rock 'n rollers. If she quoted him correctly Lindsey's comments about "using all his best ideas on Stevie and Christine's songs" made me cross. And as I've said before the constant descriptions of the drug taking I found tedious. Maybe they found the drug taking tedious and that's why one by one they stopped. I can't imagine how much damage they all did to themselves and as for Ms McVie - snorting coke while driving. Jesus she was lucky the worst that happened to her was total embarrassment. I must admit I think it served her right.

Gail

To tell you the truth, I believe Christine wore dingy granny knickers, but I find the whole strip searched thing hard to swallow. Why didn't that arrest make the papers like John and Julie's did (and FM was a lot less famous when John was charged)? Carol makes it sound like a pretty well-known incident, both within the FM circle and to the police. Sometimes celebrities are let go and we never hear about it, but if it got to the point where Christine was strip searched, she would have had to be arrested for that to happen.

Easy for Carol to verify. No one else would have access to her medical records. They're private and the right to privacy even remains after you die. You're right. They would make good verifying evidence, though. Usually when you go to the doctor, they make a note as to what you said happened as well as your physical condition. So, if she reported that her boyfriend did that to her, I guess that would be in the medical records. Most of the time she said she didn't tell anyone but Sara though.

Michele

When I was young I was so used to reading about what a grand producer Lindsey was that I honestly thought the other musicians bascially NEEDED him to complete their songs. But any quick listen to demos (such as with Hold me) or the stripped down masters on Tusk of Honey Hi and Never Forget reveal what Christine has always said...she usually has a good idea of where she wants her songs to go before she enters the studio and that only when she's being generous to Lindsey do the songs differ vastly from their original conception.

Lindsey has also been credited with exploiting the Byrds-like vocal formula which, according to Rolling Stone's review of Tusk, began with "You make Loving Fun" and is abundant throughout Tusk. It's not hard to hear Chris using thick YMLF-like vocal textures much earlier, such as on the title track to Heroes are Hard to Find or in her harmonies to Emerald Eyes.

In short, she was most likely very involved in all stages of arrangment and prodcution of those records. She just doesn't blab about what a tortured genius she is.

I totally agree. Christine is more than capable of producing her songs as she proved on ITM. On the Making of Rumours DVD Ken Caillat says about (I think) YMLF that Christine basically had it "already worked out in her head".

I found one of the comments about Tusk particularly irritating. CAH seems to suggest that Lindsey was adamant about none of the band performing on his songs. I not sure he gets the idea of being in a band.

Gail

The other Christine comment of Carol's that I found unlikely is the bit about Lindsey's epilepsy. That audio tape has been circulated in which Christine asks Mick if she should just say that Lindsey has a mild form of epilepsy when people ask. Mick tells her no. Since Christine was prepared to say Lindsey had epilepsy herself and was only stopped by Mick, it doesn't make sense when Carol writes that Christine was the one lecturing Lindsey about not disclosing his malady to the media. From the audio tape, I never thought Christine thought there was anything wrong with doing so herself. Mick is the one who didn't want to.

Michele

Yes, that made it sound as if Lindsey thought the rest of the band would somehow ruin his songs by playing on them, which is ridiculous. I believe Mick in his book mentioned that neither of the McVies liked the arrangement. The only reason they put up with what they did was because they were trying to keep Lindsey in Fleetwood Mac.

Don't get me wrong: I think Lindsey's an excellent producer-arranger. Most of his arrangments on Say You Will (with the exception of an occasional major screw up) is really quite good. I also think his guitar fills on various songs by the other two writers' are great. I just don't think he is the sole visionary there. A lot of the MAC studio chemistry came from Christine. Her mutli-layered vocal harmonies on the Pre-BN songs shows she was getting quite savvy in the studio. And didn't she say once she was one of the first people to purchase an arp-string ensemble and use it on a pop record?

OMG, can we please stop nip picking & scrutinizing every single sentence in a quote or article. Why dont you let up and stop looking for stuff thats not really there. Everything always has to turn into a discussion about Lindsey Vs Christine on this board.:distress:

AMEN!!!!:thumbsup:

I don't have the exact quote, but I'm not sure she was talking about the arp string ensemble. She may have been referring to the mellotron. I know whatever it was, she said that it had a very low serial number.

I completely agree with your post, by the way.:)

I totally agree. No-one is saying Lindsey isn't talented. I happen to think he is a very talented producer and guitarist and lately a very good songwriter. Sometimes his attitude seems to suggest that he "does it all". According to Mick's book that's what annoyed Christine at the meeting at her house just before the Tango tour. Lindsey saying "I can't do it all anymore"

Gail

see this is why can't stand Linsdey's bitching.....

he wants it all his way..... he wants to control all the work..... he toots his own horn.... then bitches he had to do it that way.....

i wish christine would dragged him by his hair down her driveway!! lol

But this is rather apples and oranges. In Mick's book, Lindsey was complaining about Tango and most of his frustration probably came from the fact that Stevie wasn't around and he had to kind of manipulate the songs to make it sound like she was. It's probably due to Stevie's absence that he and Christine collaborated more on Tango than they did elsewhere and far from making it sound like he did it all, he told Creem that Tango had Christine's best batch of songs ever. Michele

In Mick's book Lindsey was complaining about having to "do it all" and this was just after the album was completed and they had the meeting at Christine's house. He may well have said that Tango had Christine's best bunch of songs (and I agree with him) but he does come across (as jbrownsjr says) as wanting it all ways - wanting the control and then moaning that he has to do it all.

Gail

Yeah, but that comment from Lindsey was related to Tango and the production on that, not the history of the band as a whole. Certainly it's clear that he generally likes all of the control, that's especially apparent by the time you get to the Say You Will album. But back during the period when he made the "doing it all" comment attributed to him in Mick's book, when it came to Tango, he didn't seek that control out. On the contrary, Lindsey wasn't even going to produce the album, Mick said he kind of tricked him into doing it in a roundabout way, by hiring other producers that couldn't handle the job.

As for Tusk Lindsey never did the keyboards on his own songs. He did John and Mick's parts. Judging from Christine's appearances on his solo albums up to GOS, I'd say he welcomed her help in and out of the band, until Say You Will.

Michele

Lindsey did play piano on "What Makes You Think You're The One", although Chris played it live during the Tusk tour. Chris did mention this in a 1980 keyboard magazine article. Chris has also described his Tusk songs as a solo album within a Fleetwood Mac album.

Yeah, I did see Lindsey talking about doing "What Makes You Think You're the One" alone at night with Mick on drums. He said there was no Christine holding him back on that one! I also just got home, to look at my copy of Mick's book and he was saying he can't do it all anymore, after giving 12 years of his life to the band. Michele

Yes that just about sums it up. I was shocked to read in CAH's book that for one song on Tusk (it may have been more) Lindsey sat behind John and made him the play the exact notes he wanted. He doesn't sound to me that he wanted to be in band at that point. If I was being cynical (heaven forbid) it sounds like he wanted the brand name but not the others "interfering" with his masterpieces.

Gail

I'd never heard that quote before.:(

By the way, I can only imagine what John McVie may have said to Lindsey when he was telling John what notes to play.;):D

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.:nod:

something like *@&$ off!

I hadn't heard that quote before either but it's what we all suspected - that Lindsey thought Christine was "holding him back". Wicked, wicked Tea Lady.


Gail

Did Bob Welch also think Christine was "holding him back?" In one of his Q&As here, he basically said she was musically unadventurous (if talented) and turned up her nose at anything he tried to do that was less mainstream. I took it with a grain of salt, because he came off as really bitter, but it makes you wonder. She was obviously the one who had the best idea of what would appeal to the broadest range of people, though, given the popularity of her songs.

Christine was always more about the music and playing. Stevie has always sold an image to go along with her songs. I mean, you don't dress like that to sing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" or something. While I think she is a great songwriter (not a producer or arranger, obviously) and had the right voice to go with her music, I don't think she would've been as big without the image she cultivated. Her looks didn't hurt, either. The scary thing is that I don't think she planned it in the beginning. It just worked for her and she's played it up ever since. Christine did not need an image to sell her songs, but she could've been bigger than she was, had she been into that.

I think Lindsey has always believed he was more talented than either of them and that he was largely responsible for their success, which is why it ate at him that Stevie was so popular as a solo artist. Hence his "lounge act" remark. He is a talented producer, arranger and guitar player. But, most of his best songs were on Say You Will, IMO. The lyrics always seemed like an afterthought on many of of his earlier songs. Stevie's solo success and the fact that Christine made 2 great solo records and co-produced both indicates to me that they made their own success. Fleetwood Mac was great during their lineup because the combination of the 5 people was so good, not that Lindsey didn't play an important part as a producer in creating the sound.

For me, the proof is in the pudding. Along with the shimmering diamond of "Gypsy," the raison d’être of 80s Mac is in the degree of collaboration between Christine and Lindsey. Lindsey should know that.

Very interesting comments.

I think it is true to say that Christine is somewhat conservative in her musical tastes and that's where Lindsey was good for her I think to push her a little farther than she wanted to go. Christine was good for Lindsey by curbing some of his excesses. I do believe, however, that Lindsey appreciated Christine's talent although he didn't always show it! I think some of his comments after her leaving proove that he misses her, at least musically, because he knows what she brings to the band's sound.

As for Bob Welsh I think he did sound bitter in that Q&A which is not to say that he had not been on the receiving end of some of Ms McVie's sarcastic remarks. I don't think she is "backward in coming forward" as we say in England. Somebody asked him quite recently if he'd like to record with her again and he said he would but he "didn't think Christine liked him very much"

I agree that Lindsey has grown as a songwriter and I like his SYW stuff a lot except for Murrow and Come which are too long for my taste.

for me the appeal of FM was always the diversity - everyone brought something different to the mix and somehow it worked. the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. Which is why it annoys me when Lindsey talks like it was all his doing.

Anyway it doesn't look like we'll get another FM album because Stevie wont make on "in this lifetime" without Christine because "they tried it once and it didn't work".

Gail

It's funny that she says that. I rather liked the album and thought it worked just fine. I missed Christine's sound on it, definitely. As has been said many times, it was really like a 2nd Buckingham Nicks album with the FM rhythm section. It didn't sound much like what I think of Fleetwood Mac, but, then again, they hadn't recorded a studio album with both S and L since TITN, which had a very '80s sound. I'll say it again. Too bad C won't just record with them. They've managed to do OK touring without her, but her contributions are missed on the record. From what she said, she seemed to enjoy the creative process in the studio and she loves how she sounds with S and L. Guess it's just more pressure than she needs or wants.

To quote him exactly about "What Makes You Think You're the One" Lindsey said he and Mick were alone in the studio that night. The sound of Mick on the snare drums was so explosive when they played it back that Mick "got off on it" and became an animal. Lindsey said, "And it was just two-piece. There was no Christine or anybody putting any constraints on what could or couldn’t be done. That has to rate as one of my top-five moments with the band."

From Mick's book, Mick said Lindsey said, "I've done it all arranged, produced, played guitar, sang. I just can't hack it and do it all anymore." Then, according to Mick, Christine sharply questioned this comment because because Lindsey had been suggesting in the press that he was the one responsible for translating Christine and Stevie's music to the world. Which is ironic, because Christine herself has actually said that Lindsey did that.

She said, "I don't tell Lindsey, for example, 'I want you to play such-and-such kind of guitar, that lick,' That's why Lindsey has got the additional production credit on the album-he's been largely responsible for helping to bring across on the record the atmosphere that I want to come over on a song that I write." And in the same interview: "I don't really imagine anybody else being able to do what he does with my songs."

And about her Lindsey said, "She and I have a real valid kind of rapport between us, something that was there before we even met. It's like she can play the piano and I can play the guitar just wonderfully along with her. It's almost like parallel lines during our formative years of music until we met, and it gave us a lot of common ground."

I think Lindsey's songwriting has always been exemplary, at least starting with Rumours, but starting with Miranda and continuing to Under the Skin, I think he is showing more strength and consistency as a lyricist than he ever had before. Music wasn't really his problem, imo. The lyrics were.

Michele

I don't think anyone is questioning Lindsey's great contribution to the band and of course he contributed to the sound that FM made. If I were Christine I wouldn't tell him what type of guitar to add to a song which makes it more ironic that he felt he could tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk.

I just don't think that he "did it all" except maybe on his songs on Tusk where he did literally "do it all" and here is a quote from Christine on that subject "I don't think that some of Lindsey's drumming is the best that could be desired, but he needed to get that off his chest, and he did it" so she may be impressed with his guitar work but not his drumming.

On Tusk he certainly did have the lion's share of the production work but I doubt if the others felt they had any choice in the matter.

Gail

I Agree. In my opinion, that's why the White Album & Rumours were so popular, both with critics & record buyers. They were true BAND albums. They had input from everyone in the band.