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sara1998 05-10-2007 10:35 AM

Executed man's last request honored -- pizza for homeless
 
(CNN) -- Hundreds of homeless people in Nashville, Tennessee, ate well Wednesday evening -- all in the name of a man who the state put to death just hours earlier.

Philip Workman, 53, requested that his final meal be a vegetarian pizza donated to any homeless person located near Riverbend Maximum Security Institution.

He was executed there at 2 a.m. ET Wednesday. (Watch witnesses describe his last moments )

But prison officials refused to honor his request, saying that they do not donate to charities.

That apparently upset a few people willing to pay for and deliver a lot of pies themselves.

Homeless shelters across Nashville were inundated with donated pizzas all Wednesday. (Watch homeless feast on piles of pizza )

"I was like, 'Wow, Jesus!' " said Marvin Champion, an employee of Nashville's Rescue Mission, which provides overnight shelter, food and assistance to more than 800 homeless people a night.

"I used to be homeless, so I know how rough it gets. I seen some bad times -- not having enough food, the cupboards are bare. But we got pizza to feed enough people for awhile," Champion said.

"This really shows the people here that someone out there thought of them."

$1,200 worth of pies
Donna Spangler heard about Workman's request and immediately called her friends. They all pitched in for the $1,200 bill to buy 150 pizzas, which they sent to the Rescue Mission.

"Philip Workman was trying to do a good deed and no one would help him," said the 55-year-old who recruited a co-worker to help her make the massive delivery Wednesday evening.

"I knew my husband would have a heart attack -- I put some of it on the credit card. But I thought we'll find a way to pay for them later," she said. "I just felt like I had to do something positive."

Spangler wasn't the only person to place an order in Workman's name.

The president of the People for Ethical Treatment of Animals read a news story about the prison denying the inmate's last request and ordered 15 veggie pizzas sent to the Rescue Mission Wednesday morning.

"Workman's act was selfless, and kindness to all living beings is a virtue," said PETA President Ingrid Newkirk.

Not far away, 17 pizzas arrived at Nashville's Oasis Center, a shelter that helps about 260 teenagers in crisis. By 9 p.m. ET, more pizzas had arrived, said executive director Hal Cato.

"We talked to the kids and they understand what this is tied to and they know that this man [Workman] wanted to do something to point out the problems of homelessness."

When Workman robbed a Wendy's in Memphis, Tennessee, in 1981, he was a strung-out cocaine addict looking for a way to pay for his next high, he has said.

He was homeless at the time. Workman was convicted of shooting and killing Memphis Police Lt. Ronald Oliver during the robbery.

Many of the pizzas ordered in Workman's name were delivered anonymously, but the first 17 at Oasis Center came from a Minneapolis, Minnesota, radio station that devoted much of its morning show time talking about Workman's request.

"They were upset about it," said Cato.

He plans to call other homeless shelters in Nashville Thursday and share the pies. "They should be able to benefit from this, too," he said.

Cliff Tredway, the director of public relations for the Rescue Mission, said it's more than pizzas that helped that shelter.

"It's the story of a guy whose execution translated into a generous act," he said. "It's people donating to other people they don't know.

"It's about a group of people who society often writes off getting a pizza party today."



I don't know why, but this struck a chord with me. Here, we have a man who is about to lose his life to the death penalty, and his last request was for pizza to be delivered to the homeless... It just kinda got to me.

Tee Dee 05-10-2007 10:40 AM

WOW! Incredible! Thanks for posting.

skcin 05-10-2007 12:06 PM

I just read this. Shame the prison system itself couldn't honor his last request, but it's great that so many donated to the cause.

The Tower 05-10-2007 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skcin (Post 686642)
I just read this. Shame the prison system itself couldn't honor his last request, but it's great that so many donated to the cause.

The real shame is that he was executed.

JazmenFlowers 05-10-2007 02:37 PM

I'm glad too that so many homeless were fed. I go to a two-story house here once a month and serve the homeless.

as for the execution bit, as with abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

skcin 05-10-2007 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower (Post 686657)
The real shame is that he was executed.

I'm not getting into that argument. :wavey:

GateandGarden 05-10-2007 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower (Post 686657)
The real shame is that he was executed.

I couldn't possibly agree more.

seeker007nmss 05-10-2007 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower (Post 686657)
The real shame is that he was executed.


It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

The Tower 05-10-2007 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss (Post 686687)
It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

Let's just hope that someone you love doesn't get in a situation where they are affected by drug use or something else and do something out of control and then the government kills them.

Revenge does not equal justice.

BlackWidow 05-10-2007 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazmenFlowers (Post 686668)
I'm glad too that so many homeless were fed. I go to a two-story house here once a month and serve the homeless.

as for the execution bit, as with abortion, I'm really, really torn, so I won't comment.

That is great to hear you do that!!!:angel:

seeker007nmss 05-10-2007 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower (Post 686688)
Let's just hope that someone you love doesn't get in a situation where they are affected by drug use or something else and do something out of control and then the government kills them.

Revenge does not equal justice.

75% or released prisoners commit crimes again. Doesn't sound like "one situation - out of control". Once , First time, - all the excuses, fine. Repeat offenders - responsibility for ones actions. and don't forget THE VICTIMS. They are the ones that need our attention. If you are a repeat burden on society, then you should be removed. Not all human life is worth saving - their actions prove themselves not human. I have no compassion for repeat offenders of violent crimes. First time - all the excuses you want to name - second, third, fourth, enough is enough.... Remove from existance.

The Tower 05-10-2007 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss (Post 686690)
75% or released prisoners commit crimes again. Doesn't sound like "one situation - out of control". Once , First time, - all the excuses, fine. Repeat offenders - responsibility for ones actions. and don't forget THE VICTIMS. They are the ones that need our attention. If you are a repeat burden on society, then you should be removed. Not all human life is worth saving - their actions prove themselves not human. I have no compassion for repeat offenders of violent crimes. First time - all the excuses you want to name - second, third, fourth, enough is enough.... Remove from existance.

Well, why not make it easy? Why wait until they commit the second crime?? Since so many criminals (75%) commit another crime, just execute them all. After all, who would want to be responsible for letting a criminal out of jail- only to murder someone's relative?

GateandGarden 05-10-2007 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss (Post 686690)
- their actions prove themselves not human.

Wow, well if you really believe that, then nothing I can say would mean a thing.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower (Post 686657)
The real shame is that he was executed.

how so? you dont get on death row by being a boy scout for cripes sake :shrug:

Im not saying he should have died, but I find it interesting that his crime was not mentioned......

ETA:

Quote:

It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.
agreed.

the last act of a convicted criminal no matter how altruistic cannot erase the act(s) that put him on death row in the first place. irregardless of whether you believe death penalty is right or not, the true miracle here is the generosity of those that donated pizzas for the homeless, not that a condemned man chose to use his last wish in such a manner :shrug:

I guess if I felt the hand of imminent doom upon me, I'd try to atone for sin too :shrug:

irishgrl 05-10-2007 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower (Post 686688)
Let's just hope that someone you love doesn't get in a situation where they are affected by drug use or something else and do something out of control and then the government kills them.

Revenge does not equal justice.

ahem: revenge would be the victim's family pursuing vigilante justice;
justice is letting the accused have his day in court w/representation and appeals and whatnot. People dont hit death row overnight. This man had plenty of time to impact his fate and was unsuccessful. Thus, your argument fails.

GateandGarden 05-10-2007 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686738)
ahem: revenge would be the victim's family pursuing vigilante justice;
justice is letting the accused have his day in court w/representation and appeals and whatnot. People dont hit death row overnight. This man had plenty of time to impact his fate and was unsuccessful. Thus, your argument fails.

Not really. Your argument doesn't really make any sense to me. It isn't about revenge just because there's an involved procedure? All that does is make it seem fairer by comparison. It's still all about revenge. It's the exact same outcome as the family pursuing vigilante justice, in fact. It's just state-sanctioned murder.

carrie721 05-10-2007 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden (Post 686751)
Not really. Your argument doesn't really make any sense to me. It isn't about revenge just because there's an involved procedure? All that does is make it seem fairer by comparison. It's still all about revenge. It's the exact same outcome as the family pursuing vigilante justice, in fact. It's just state-sanctioned murder.

word! preach it! ita! etc. :xoxo:

irishgrl 05-10-2007 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden (Post 686751)
Not really. Your argument doesn't really make any sense to me. It isn't about revenge just because there's an involved procedure? All that does is make it seem fairer by comparison. It's still all about revenge. It's the exact same outcome as the family pursuing vigilante justice, in fact. It's just state-sanctioned murder.

no. revenge is not about justice. revenge is about getting even. concepts like representation and appeal and clemency do not apply in revenge.

Justice is about seeing that the right balance is struck between a wrong and reparation. Revenge doesnt do that.

Regardless of whether you think the death penalty is right or not, the basic law of the universe holds that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Many ancient cultures characterized it as the "eye for an eye" principle. Here, the defendant/convicted (CONVICTED) criminal has recourse to challenge the charges and/or sentence. In "revenge," no such recourse is available. You are making an emotional argument based on your dislike of the death penalty. You are totally missing the big picture of the wrongs committed, ie: the original crimes the defendant committed which harmed many innocents, either directly or indirectly.

BTW: an argument could also be made that the defendant had to pay a karmic debt from a past life and orchestrated events in THIS life to bring him to this point where he would pay the ultimate price. I happen to firmly believe this scenario. We all choose our circumstances based on the lessons we need to learn. I myself have looked death in the eye and said "if its my time, its my time." apparently it wasnt my time then.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721 (Post 686752)
word! preach it! ita! etc. :xoxo:

what is a synonym for "surprised?" cuz thats what I am. nuff said.

carrie721 05-10-2007 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686756)
what is a synonym for "surprised?" cuz thats what I am. nuff said.

oh, get off it.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721 (Post 686757)
oh, get off it.

you first. cute shoes btw.

carrie721 05-10-2007 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686758)
you first. cute shoes btw.

blah blah blah. i disagree with you, and i agree with hillary. i don't wanna get in an argument b/c issues like this never get resolved. there are just too many people who are executed who are later found innocent, so :shrug: i can't support the DP.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721 (Post 686760)
blah blah blah. i disagree with you, and i agree with hillary. i don't wanna get in an argument b/c issues like this never get resolved. there are just too many people who are executed who are later found innocent, so :shrug: i can't support the DP.

Im not saying that doesnt happen but in the grand scheme of things, the number of falsely executed prisoners doesnt amount to a hill of beans. You can agree with whoever you want to. I myself am conflicted regarding the death penalty but that doesnt mean that I can forgive a convicted murderer based on the fact that generous people everywhere fed the homeless because of his denied request. Sorry. oh and for good measure: blah blah blah blah.

carrie721 05-10-2007 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686764)
Im not saying that doesnt happen but in the grand scheme of things, the number of falsely executed prisoners doesnt amount to a hill of beans. You can agree with whoever you want to. I myself am conflicted regarding the death penalty but that doesnt mean that I can forgive a convicted murderer based on the fact that generous people everywhere fed the homeless because of his denied request. Sorry. oh and for good measure: blah blah blah blah.

who said anything about forgiveness? i certainly didn't ... i haven't read every word of this thread tho ...

blah blah.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721 (Post 686765)
who said anything about forgiveness? i certainly didn't ... i haven't read every word of this thread tho ...

blah blah.

forgiveness is divine by the way...

GateandGarden 05-10-2007 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl
no. revenge is not about justice. revenge is about getting even. concepts like representation and appeal and clemency do not apply in revenge.

And you just decided that? Seems like the same thing to me, just with some formalities such as what you named.

Quote:

Justice is about seeing that the right balance is struck between a wrong and reparation. Revenge doesnt do that.
But capital punishment restores that balance, you're saying? Just an example, but the Navajo are very much in favor of this concept of restoring balance in the universe, but their culture prohibits the death penalty. I guess, like me, they haven't figured out how putting blood on more people's hands restores balance.

Quote:

Regardless of whether you think the death penalty is right or not, the basic law of the universe holds that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Many ancient cultures characterized it as the "eye for an eye" principle.
I don't see how Newton's Third Law applies to criminal justice. Are you proposing that we rape rapists? Rob robbers? As far as I know, "eye for an eye" only applies to homicide cases in the United States, and that's a severe one to decide to apply that little adage to, since miscarriages of justice are irreversible and all.

Quote:

Here, the defendant/convicted (CONVICTED) criminal has recourse to challenge the charges and/or sentence. In "revenge," no such recourse is available. You are making an emotional argument based on your dislike of the death penalty. You are totally missing the big picture of the wrongs committed, ie: the original crimes the defendant committed which harmed many innocents, either directly or indirectly.
Do those people come back to life after "justice" is carried out? Sorry for the irritating rhetorical question. By bringing the victim into the equation, are you not playing on emotions? The pro-death penalty people are typically the emotional ones, talking about how the victim's family will feel so comforted once the defendant is put to death. What the hell does that matter in a court of law?

Quote:

BTW: an argument could also be made that the defendant had to pay a karmic debt from a past life and orchestrated events in THIS life to bring him to this point where he would pay the ultimate price. I happen to firmly believe this scenario. We all choose our circumstances based on the lessons we need to learn. I myself have looked death in the eye and said "if its my time, its my time." apparently it wasnt my time then.
Yeah...okay. I've believed some bizarre spiritual things in my life...still cling to some of them. But none of that belongs in a supposedly secular debate pertaining to law if we have separation of church and state and all that good stuff. I mean, we hardly do in this country, but let's pretend.

Of course Carrie is right--there isn't really a point in talking about it but then I'm finished with exams so what the hell.

GateandGarden 05-10-2007 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl
...the number of falsely executed prisoners doesnt amount to a hill of beans.

Well you just sound like seeker when you say that. I would say that if any innocent person is executed, that is inexcusable.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden (Post 686777)
And you just decided that? Seems like the same thing to me, just with some formalities such as what you named.

But capital punishment restores that balance, you're saying? Just an example, but the Navajo are very much in favor of this concept of restoring balance in the universe, but their culture prohibits the death penalty. I guess, like me, they haven't figured out how putting blood on more people's hands restores balance.

I don't see how Newton's Third Law applies to criminal justice. Are you proposing that we rape rapists? Rob robbers? As far as I know, "eye for an eye" only applies to homicide cases in the United States, and that's a severe one to decide to apply that little adage to, since miscarriages of justice are irreversible and all.

Do those people come back to life after "justice" is carried out? Sorry for the irritating rhetorical question. By bringing the victim into the equation, are you not playing on emotions? The pro-death penalty people are typically the emotional ones, talking about how the victim's family will feel so comforted once the defendant is put to death. What the hell does that matter in a court of law?

Yeah...okay. I've believed some bizarre spiritual things in my life...still cling to some of them. But none of that belongs in a supposedly secular debate pertaining to law if we have separation of church and state and all that good stuff. I mean, we hardly do in this country, but let's pretend.

Of course Carrie is right--there isn't really a point in talking about it but then I'm finished with exams so what the hell.

you give me too much credit. I didnt "decide" anything. Im just reiteriting it. (get a dictionary)

ok, as to your theory that the Navaho approach being the only one: sorry. I think its a bit presumptuous to engage in a discussion about what the Navaho believe without having them nearby.

Quote:

I don't see how Newton's Third Law applies to criminal justice. Are you proposing that we rape rapists? Rob robbers? As far as I know, "eye for an eye" only applies to homicide cases in the United States, and that's a severe one to decide to apply that little adage to, since miscarriages of justice are irreversible and all.
this is a spectacular misstatement of my intent :D good work!

Please dont be so silly as to propose simplistic cause/effect isues: the law of Karma is even more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity. I believe that as spiritual beings we choose situations that enable us to learn from our past mistakes.

more later.

irishgrl 05-10-2007 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden (Post 686778)
Well you just sound like seeker when you say that. I would say that if any innocent person is executed, that is inexcusable.

well, you just sounded like an alarmist to say otherwise. the sad fact is, when you compare justifiably condemded criminals with potentially innocent criminals, the numbers show that innocently condemned criminals are FAR in the minority;

If you want to indulge your bleeding heart tendancies, then go right ahead.

irishgrl 05-11-2007 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden (Post 686778)
Well you just sound like seeker when you say that. I would say that if any innocent person is executed, that is inexcusable.

ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

carrie721 05-11-2007 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686783)
ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

wow. i really am shocked to read that.

paleshadow 05-11-2007 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss (Post 686687)
It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. :mad: It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

Thanks for pointing that out. I noticed the article didn't say anything about that. How much of a sacrafice or selflessness is it to donate Pizza's that you aren't paying for to homeless people, regardless on where you stand on the issue of capital punishment.

sparky 05-11-2007 12:24 AM

I suppose it is a cute story and all,
but, the guy committed armed robbery and killed a cop.
The only problem I have with his death is the timing.
Too bad someone didn't take him out at the scene and just simplify the whole process.

It's cool that hungry people got fed though.:shrug:

amber 05-11-2007 02:09 AM

^^^

Your efficient tendencies are admirable, they kind of speak to me. Feed some homeless people, kill some criminals before they drain taxpayer dollars.
But sort of joking but not really aside...

This thread is interesting because I agree with everyone. Wait, I mean, this thread is interesting AND I agree with everyone. Immigration and Death Penalty are my two non-extremely-liberal exceptions to my extremely liberal mindset. I decided awhile back not to be for death penalty, because it easily isn't fair, and because the U.S. justice and other systems are very flawed. It was hard, though, and I still fight it.

But I think there is something between the two extremes. There just isn't much place for it in our society, America.

I just read an article about Denmark (National Geographic) and they have hardly any crime, and also a huge social net. Social net meaning that there will never be huge discrepancies between rich and poor, everyone is provided for. Their country runs smoothly, placidly, perfectly, on time, etc. Also in other readings of mine, I came across the factoid that in Japan, you can totally leave your bike on the streets and it won't get stolen. And this concept basically extends to the crime rate in general. I think there are other European countries with similar stories. Like, don't cops in England not have guns, or something? I remember reading that, not sure if it is true.

Every alive thing on the planet fights for resources, humans always have, and so does everything else. So when people don't have resources, they will get them however they can. Be it land, money, food, mates, copper beads, water - whatever.

So, for instance, say a particular race of people have been denied resources for hundreds of years, say they were just imported to work, and looked down on b/c of their skin color only. Naturally, they will turn to whatever means they can to survive, and that cycle feeds on itself. And America has a particularly nasty gap between haves and have nots. And a particularly bigoted past and present. Our country is supposed to be so enlightened, and we have so many resources, natural and human - but the resources are allotted so divergently, and so colored by prejudice at every moment, ethnic and financial. From then until now.
And our culture supports that - it's a consumer culture who's whole point is that achievement is largely based on how much you have. Ironically, we would never be so wealthy without slave labor. Be it real slaves from the past, or cheap immigrant labor we have now. Capitalism succeeds when people have resources and cheap labor. It's intrinsic to the concept. That is what Capitalism IS.

So, what do we expect? We tell people they are "something" if they have stuff, but actually a small percentage really have the opportunity to have stuff. And not just regular stuff. Tons of stuff is the ideal. Like, millionaires. Big houses. Excess. We celebrate that culturewide as an achievement. Something to aspire to. When really, like 1% of the population owns 95% of stuff. If we present that as a cultural ideal, we can hardly be suprised at the mindset of people who choose criminal ways to achieve that ideal. Far beyond necessary survival basics - cause America doesn't celebrate necessary survival basics. It's not good enough. Other people have better stuff, and therefore are better. It's what we advertise, it's what we think. It's the American dream. It couldn't possibly be enough to have adequate food and shelter, and a full if humble life. It's funny that with all that, Americans are the most unhappy population. Think about that. We have the most, but are least happy, and have hella crime. A country with this much should be ashamed of its crime rate, and its educational level. There's people in Africa who have to walk 3 miles to get water for the day and who's parents have died from AIDS that are happier and more satisfied than we are. lol.

Doesn't mean it's right, just means it is culturally and politically fostered. And has been for hundreds of years. It's basically the foundation of this country. Besides all the other lofty conceptual thoughts of the foundation, which haven't been practiced that well.
We're like a beautiful apple infested with worms. Or something. :laugh:

High crime rates and gun violence and other violence are not necessarily an inevitable part of society, at least not to the degree that they are here. Clearly, there are social and political models in place elsewhere that greatly diminish the horrors we live with in America. I think looking at those models and how they work would accomplish a lot more than the endless "death penalty, no death penalty" debate. America is a terrible country for addressing the reasons that people commit crimes. We're like Western Medicine - we treat the symptom, not the cause of the symptom. We imagine that certain things are inevitable, that that is "just how society is". But it's not, and other countries prove it is not. It is just how we are, because of how we are. America as a concept is violent and greedy. Should we expect the people who comprise America to be different?

Nowthen, about death penalty, my opinion of - I don't value human life very much, especially since there is too much of it. In other species' worlds, assholes will be killed, weak specimens will not survive, and the social construct of the species is conformed to, or else. It is what enables the society to run smoothly, and the best genes to survive. I tend to agree with that somewhat. But when you are talking about humans, they are too complex to make it that simple (I didn't mean to be so Darwinian, but, you know). The thing is also, humans will not be fair. Humans are flawed in ways that the rest of the natural world is not. So just by virtue of knowing that someone, somewhere, could not be treated fairly even in the throes of our supposedly wonderful justice system (not - I mean, just think of Texas) makes me not able to officially endorse the death penalty. I gotta be honest, I don't usually mind about it. But especially knowing how flawed people/America/Justice is, despite what we say - with all the obvious prejudice and political and financial machinations that could, and often are, a factor in "justice", and the fact that I believe that violence begets more violence - America is a prime example of that - I just can't officially support death penalty.

Maybe in another type of system, I would be able to. Maybe if I was a wolf or a cheetah, it would be fine. :laugh: And I really don't usually mind if bitches die. But looking around the world, I can't help but think our culture begets the ills it is experiencing. Which doesn't make crime right, but it doesn't make the death penalty right, either. The answer is something else, something different, a new paradigm (for us - others already employ the awesome other paradigm).

And the point against the death penalty, is that, injustice for some can easily lead to injustice for all. Although I do agree that our system, for the most part, does give people the chance to prove their innocence. But not so much that I would trust it implicitly. But then you say, well, but do the guilty people actually have to DIE?! And I say, I can't speak very well to that, because I don't care that much if people die. But in keeping with my decision, I would have to say life incarceration. I also actually think life incarceration is much more cruel than death, but that is neither here nor there, I suppose.

Also, a particularly "assholish" part of me thinks that if people didn't keep having kids that they couldn't raise/provide for/EDUCATE properly, that would be really cool. I'd also like to say that the disgraceful state of American education has a part in that. But still. In the rest of the species world, kids aren't a right. They are dependent on resources. Unfortunatly it is a fact that the less educated people are, the more politicians will be able to f*ck them. Doesn't make education a high priority in a capitalist country.

GateandGarden 05-11-2007 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686780)
you give me too much credit. I didnt "decide" anything. Im just reiteriting it. (get a dictionary)

You stated your opinion like it was a fact. That was all I was trying to say.

Quote:

ok, as to your theory that the Navaho approach being the only one: sorry. I think its a bit presumptuous to engage in a discussion about what the Navaho believe without having them nearby.
:laugh: Okay. I just got finished with a research paper on the Navajo Nation and the death penalty. But if I'm still not supposed to comment, so be it. Forget the example then.


Quote:

this is a spectacular misstatement of my intent :D good work!
Er...thanks! :laugh: I didn't think you really believed that we should rape rapists, etc...I was attempting to make a point...oh never mind.

Quote:

Please dont be so silly as to propose simplistic cause/effect isues: the law of Karma is even more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity. I believe that as spiritual beings we choose situations that enable us to learn from our past mistakes.
Give me a break. Are you going to continue applying ridiculousness to this? Karma is more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity? Are you being just a little facetious here? That seems like saying the Bible is better than science. How does spirituality (or religion) belong in this debate?

GateandGarden 05-11-2007 08:39 AM

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Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686783)
ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

Well, like I like to tell people good thing you aren't poor and black! 'Cause you could easily be the innocent one who is never proven innocent and has to die anyway. If you've done any research on the death penalty in the United States, you know how blatantly racist it is, how even people who look more "stereotypically" ethnic are more likely to be convicted because people equate their looks with criminality. The death penalty is inherently a biased system anyway. You have human beings deciding the fates of human beings; people are unavoidably fallible. Miscarriage of justice is inevitable anyway, but with our abundance of social ills, the situation is exacerbated.

But I don't guess any of this really means anything to you, based on that statement I'm trying to respond to here.

GateandGarden 05-11-2007 08:44 AM

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Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 686781)
well, you just sounded like an alarmist to say otherwise. the sad fact is, when you compare justifiably condemded criminals with potentially innocent criminals, the numbers show that innocently condemned criminals are FAR in the minority;

How can this be proven, anyway? I have never understood that. I'm sure there are people who were innocent and it will never be known that they were innocent. I don't see that it matters anyway, as I said. No innocent person should be executed. It's one thing to be an innocent person serving years in jail and quite another to lose your life. Additionally, I think that murder is just wrong, whether it's a solitary citizen committing it or the government, which is arguably worse.

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If you want to indulge your bleeding heart tendancies, then go right ahead.
Thanks for the permission. I think more people should give a ****.

strandinthewind 05-11-2007 09:18 AM

AMBER'S BACK - and vociferous, if not obstreperous, as ever :laugh: :p

Seriously - welcome back darlin'

As for the death penalty and convictions in general - of course there are errors and that sucks. But, the US has the best system there is and, in fact, it heavily leans toward the presumption of error, especially when constitutional rights are violated (caveat, the last 40 or so years have seen a gradual breakdown of the Fourth Amendment's guarantee of no illegal search and seizure). So, I think though mistakes do happen, they are the exception and not the rule and there is no better system I can think of. If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.

As for the death penalty - the advent of DNA evidence in the last 15 or so years has exonerated many and convicted many, many more basd o n that alone. So, the system is vastly better than it was.

Is the death penalty or convictions in general a racist thing? It really depends on how you define that word. If you think that poor black people (not all poor people mind you) essentially are doomed to commit crime because of their social position and societal mindset in general - then I suppose the answer is yes, even though the vast majority of the crimes committed are not done out of need like to buy/steal food, etc. For example, the poor in the Katrina fiasco were not stealing bread and drug related crimes amongst minorities are high :shrug: If you think that though the poor blacks (not all the poor) , like everyone else, are heavily disadvantaged but are still responsible for their actions, then the answer is no. I think that bad people exist in all levels of society and they should be responsible for their actions. I also think that if we as a society did more to help educate, cloth, and feed the poor of all races, there would be far less crime in that a prevalent mindset of the poor is that they have nothing to lose.

As for the death penalty and/or killing the perp at the scene – yes, it would be nice if the police knew for certain that the perp was guilty – a good example is the Cho freak at Va Tech – I say kill him on the spot. But, I know that the law prevents that and rightly so because although things may look one way in the heat of the moment, they may be something else. For example, the police may find a woman killing a man with a gun. She may be doing it in self defense of a rape or her own death – so, killing her then would be unwarranted.

Anyway – my $0.02

irishgrl 05-11-2007 11:09 AM

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As for the death penalty - the advent of DNA evidence in the last 15 or so years has exonerated many and convicted many, many more basd o n that alone. So, the system is vastly better than it was.
Thanks for that, I was just about to say the same thing.

and this:
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Is the death penalty or convictions in general a racist thing? It really depends on how you define that word. If you think that poor black people (not all poor people mind you) essentially are doomed to commit crime because of their social position and societal mindset in general - then I suppose the answer is yes, even though the vast majority of the crimes committed are not done out of need like to buy/steal food, etc. For example, the poor in the Katrina fiasco were not stealing bread and drug related crimes amongst minorities are high If you think that though the poor blacks (not all the poor) , like everyone else, are heavily disadvantaged but are still responsible for their actions, then the answer is no. I think that bad people exist in all levels of society and they should be responsible for their actions. I also think that if we as a society did more to help educate, cloth, and feed the poor of all races, there would be far less crime in that a prevalent mindset of the poor is that they have nothing to lose.
totally on target. There has to be SOME sort of consequence for criminal acts. Im not 100% comfortable with the death penalty, but as a taxpayer, Im not sure I want to support violent, repeat offenders for the rest of their lives.

Again, in the overall prison population, only a small percentage are actually put to death.

irishgrl 05-11-2007 11:18 AM

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Originally Posted by GateandGarden (Post 686815)
:laugh: Okay. I just got finished with a research paper on the Navajo Nation and the death penalty. But if I'm still not supposed to comment, so be it. Forget the example then.

I think its unwise to compare disparate cultures, or to think that what works for one culture would necessarily work for another.

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Give me a break. Are you going to continue applying ridiculousness to this? Karma is more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity? Are you being just a little facetious here? That seems like saying the Bible is better than science. How does spirituality (or religion) belong in this debate?
Karma is not ridiculous. Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity. What I was stating in my comment was my belief that we as spiritual beings choose our circumstances so that we position ourselves to learn particular lessons. I think spirituality is very important in this context because a moral center (or lack thereof) is key to a person's acts
:shrug: Of course, I am aware that an exaggerated belief system can also be a problem :o


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