fritz and destiny....
 

I have just been listening to some Fritz LIVE!!!, a couple of mp3s, and a question occurred. Fritz sound really good to me... quirky and original... not so MOR as Fleetwood Mac often are.

QUESTION: If Lindsey and Stevie had stayed with Fritz, and had never joined Mick, etc, would they FRITZ have become huge, and FM stayed a UK blues group? When you listen to the Fritz songs, you can hear Stevie doin' her thing... I think she/they would have gotten hugely popular even without the Mac swooping in with their fancy cadillacs and weekly paycheques. Maybe Stevie would have gotten famous slower... not gotten into the coke etc... and had more hits if she had more control over things (ie not having to compete for album space with Christine).

What do you think??

The fritz mp3s are at this site:

http://groups.msn.com/AngelsGypsysSa...downloads.msnw

Maybe, but that sure is an unusual reaction -- to call live Fritz quirky & original in relation to Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac was renowned for being quirky live, throughout virtually all of their incarnations (except the 1987-90 band -- there wasn't anything quirky about their performances).
It's debatable whether those are even Fritz songs. Everyone's relying on Maureen's word. Secondly, if Fritz had hit the big time, it just as easily could have been because of Javier & not Stevie or Lindsey, since Javier was writing the vast majority of the material & was really the boss of the band. He called the shots. If Fritz had stayed together & Javier had continued to control the musical direction of the band -- or even to increase his control -- it seems doubtful that Lindsey would have hung around. His interest in taking the reins in the recording studio was just about to blossom at that point.

Kind of rewriting history a bit there, aren't you? Stevie and Lindsey had already left Fritz to become Buckingham Nicks two years before they joined Fleetwood Mac. And for their part, Fleetwood Mac had ceased to be a blues group well before Stevie and Lindsey joined, nor were they based in the UK anymore at that time.

thanks for responding

i guess that answered the question.. it had just occurred to me that FM's biggest draw, at least as I see it, was Stevie (to a lot of people) and Lindsey also... without them, I wonder if FM would have been anywhere near as successful. I like Christine and clearly she has a great voice etc but she doesn't have the chemistry, i think. Stevie does. and at the same time, i wondered how things would have been different if S & L had stayed with Fritz, or just stayed as Buckingham Nicks. Would they have been so famous? or was it the combo? was it the relatively sudden fame with FM that sent Stevie in the direction of coke, and from that into Klonopin and Street Angel and so on... I guess it was?

I know FM weren't in the Uk, or so much blues anymore when they met Lindsey.. i have read Mick's wonderful book, you know. i worded it poorly, sorry.

It was a fairly confused question/thought to begin with, i doubt I am making it any clearer.

Yeh, I guess I am trying to rewrite history.

This has been gone over many times in many Mac forums, but obviously it was the combination of "these five people" that inexplicably became commercial gold. Neither contingent likely would have been nearly as successful on their own. Stevie and Lindsey were going nowhere fast and had been dropped by their record label; it seems pretty clear that, barring a miracle, they were not suddenly going to become a big name act on their own. And Fleetwood Mac, meanwhile, were without a guitarist and down to one not-terribly-prolific songwriter. Of course, who knows, any of them could very well have released an album that sold even more than Rumours did; but it didn't work out that way, so we'll never know.

And I know Stevie fans like to think that it was just Stevie's sheer presence that suddenly made Fleetwood Mac so popular, but that just isn't the case. Remember, the first hit single off the 1975 album was "Over My Head." And "Say You Love Me" charted just as high as "Rhiannon" but was on the charts a week longer. Why didn't Chris' songs ever do that well before? Who knows. It's entirely possible that Fleetwood Mac's success after 1975 had nothing to do with who was in the band; they just happened to be making the kind of music that the record-buying public had a major hankering for at the time.

I don't know if it was the sudden fame that led Stevie toward cocaine, but it was certainly the sudden wealth, coupled with the fact that cocaine was just everywhere in the rock music industry in the late 70s.

that was brilliant. I would only disagree a bit with one small point. I think that the people who went out and saw them live were influenced by Stevie's presence. Not all the people, obviously. But then also they were on TV, and I don't think you can deny that her charisma was very helpful, especially perhaps publicity wise, because who doesn't want to take a picture of a pretty girl, and see a pretty girl sing and dance? :shrug:
I'm not sure how indicitive of popularity "having a song on top of the charts" is, but then I would say that their very next album in that incarnation, Dreams was the chart topper. :shrug:

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

:laugh:

Oh, yeah, no, I didn't think that. :laugh:

I recently read something about the history of the Buckingham/Nicks
album - the producer (Dennis Dunstan, maybe, I dunno) told them
that he felt that they would have more opportunities as a duo and
that they really needed to become independent of the rest of the
band in order to really have a chance to explore their options.
It was considered to be a polite way of telling them,
"DUMP these guys, they have NO real talent and they're holding
you back." :shocked:
Not to be mean but it seems to me that many successful stars in
this business are told the same thing, sooner or later. (WHAT was the
name of that guy who was in the original Beetles, before they made it
big? Yeah, I forgot too...)
By the way, I also read awhile back that before Stevie and Lindsey
started with Fleetwood Mac, they had to honor one more commitment -
a show in Birmingham, Alabama. Although basically no one knew that
they had joined FM (so, no "curiosity factor"), the show was sold out,
and the audience apparently LOVED them. Although they had been
struggling nationwide, in certain pockets such as Birmingham they were
VERY popular! So apparently they remember it as "The path not taken" -
a sign of what might have happened if they had taken another route.
So - yeah - they probably would have made it, at least for a time,
and with at least moderate success. Maybe William Shatner would be
on VH-1 talking about "One Hit Wonders" and mentioning B-N's big hit
"So Afraid" or "Frozen Love" or something! . . . . :D

Uhmmm, I'm probably gotta get slammed for this, and I just
love 'er ta death but -
Gypsy?
All Lindsey....
Almost 100%.
She's brilliant -
But Gypsy?
I know the words mean a lot to her and that she wrote them -
but the song itself?
Lindsey. :blob2: :shocked:

Stu Sutcliffe.? Or Pete Best? Both were i nthere at some point, I think.

But yeah man, good thing they hooked up with that powerhouse of talent Ringo. They would have been up **** creek without him...

One other historical fact that seems to get blurred; Klonopin showed up before the recording of The Other Side Of The Mirror. For some reason, Klonopin seems to only be discussed as being there for Street Angel. Personally, I think the Klonopin influence is more obvious on TOSOTM than on Street Angel. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
- Jim

I think it's more associated with Street Angel just because it was immediately after recording that album that she "kicked the habit." She started taking it almost immediately after she stopped doing cocaine, though, right?

Stevie is a prolific song writer. But anyone's songs need talented producing and arranging to be a hit.

like I want to listen to john, lindsey, mick and christine as FM...ehh, no thanks. You're right, imo, that they all played pivotal roles in success, but I think Stevie was the glue.

:lol: :lol:

Poor Ringo.

That's great. But that's just you. It's pretty obvious from even a cursory glance around The Ledge that that's not the case for everyone.

Do you only listen to Stevie's songs on mac albums? Except for the instances where she adds a harmony vocal, most Fleetwood Mac songs from 1975 to 1987 *are* just John, Lindsey, Mick and Christine.

Was she the glue that made songs like "Over My Head," "Say You Love Me," "Go Your Own Way," "Don't Stop," "You Make Loving Fun," "Tusk" and "Hold Me" majorly successful hit singles? Her contributions to each were minimal, if they weren't completely non-existent.

Here's a series of questions that I asked earlier in the year that, I feel, help sets the record straight.

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years? Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule?

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation.

3. Who had been on American television by 1975?

4. Who had the record contract with a major lable in 1975?

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971?

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio across America in 1974?

7. Who had the road crew/touring machine and the contacts with major concert promoters to go with it?

8. Who had articles written about them in Rolling Stone prior to 1975?

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows?

10. Who advocated on behalf of Fleetwood Mac with Warners?

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE break out song, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey?

Fleetwood Mac's success was all Stevie, you say. Sorry, I'm not buying.

Can you confirm this? Ive heard different views saying that she was not on klonopin during the recording of OSOTM......

No. Lindsey couldn't work *for* somebody I don't think. He would have quit the band long before 1987. More like 1977. But they were doing their own thing and who knows what would have happened if they had not signed with FM. Just coz their first record didn't sell doesn't mean the next one wouldn't have. That's something we and they will never know.

I bet Stevie and Lindsey didn't know anybody but since FM was already an established band, Mick, John and Christine would have known peeps, right? But knowing peeps doesn't guarantee success.

The old FM. Not saying that they weren't good but Ashlee Simpson and Britney Spears have been on American television and they suck, imo. Just saying that doesn't mean much.

The old FM

The old FM. I'm not saying they weren't really good but you don't have to be good to put out a *greatest hits package*. Some bands that have been one hit wonders have put out greatest hits packages. Just saying.

The old FM but they weren't BIG hits or at least not like Rumours was or the first one. You hardly ever hear any FM songs on the radio that aren't the Rumours lineup.

The old FM but I think if you know a few peeps in the record biz, you can hook that up.

Old FM.

If they were so steady why weren't they getting big hits on the radio. If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie. Maybe Mick some. Maybe Christine too. Not even Lindsey.

Don't know this one. Mick?

Christine. BUT did Christine ever have a break out song or a big song before Stevie and Lindsey joined? They joined and everything she did was like the Midas touch. Was that a coincidence?

I think it comes down to what peeps like. This sentence "If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie." It doesn't matter how good the old FM was or how great a singer Christine was or how many times they were on TV or toured. It's who peeps like. And they liked Stevie.

This is a very new phenomenon. If you put out a greatest hits album in 1971, it meant you actually had some great hits.

This is obviously not the case. Where does this kind of wrongheaded, narrow-minded Stevie worship come from?

This is just ridiculous. Nobody had any idea who Stevie and Lindsey were when "Over My Head" was released and became a big hit. And Stevie is nowhere to be found on the track.

Why didn't Christine have a break-out single before then? Who knows? Why do hundreds of great bands languish in obscurity for years on end only to suddenly become popular? The market is a fickle place, and you never know what one song is going to get folks to latch onto you for the first time.

Again, this is just a completely ridiculous statement. Where does this kind of Stevie solipsism come from?

Between 1975 and 1980, Stevie did have three very popular singles with Fleetwood Mac. But the band also released six or seven other very popular singles on which Stevie's contribution is all but non-existent. Clearly people did not like only Stevie.

It depends on the peeps. One of the peeps they knew was Bill Graham, owner of the Filmore clubs. He pretty much saved their butts in 1974. If it hadn't been for him, there would have been no Fleetwood Mac for Stevie and Lindsey to join.
I don't know what you mean when you say the "old FM," as the specific show I was referring was recorded within six months of the arrival of Stevie and Lindsey. So it wasn't THAT old. Even though I agree that Simpson and Spears suck, quality of music has NOTHING to do with the argument. What I'm saying is that there was a momentum with Fleetwood Mac that had been building that simply didn't exist with Buckingham Nicks. "Mystery To Me" produced a song that got a lot of air play for YEARS thereafter. Then, the there was the whole Fake Mac scandle that was pretty heavily covered in the music rags. The interesting thing about that is there were a lot of people in the music business who started coming to Fleetwood Mac's defense, which helped increase their visibility with Warner's. Finally, they were on television and played a hell of a set. They had won the war, but Bob Welch had had enough. Who knows what would have happened if he had stayed. I'm not saying it would have been "Rumours," but I do think the situation was right and the momentum was clearly in their favor.
In some cases, that's true, but not here. Almost every song on the package was a hit single, or at least a song that got a lot of airplay. And one of those songs was paid tribute to by the Beatles. That was a compilation that was rightfully called "Greatest Hits."
Up until Clear Channel bought most of the radio stations in my area, I used to hear "Hypnotized" on a fairly regular basis. In any event, I'm not suggesting that anything Fleetwood Mac was doing compared in terms of chart success to "Rumours." I'm just saying that the momentum was working in their favor. OTOH, I've NEVER heard a Buckingham Nicks song on the radio. The comparison isn't "Rumours" Mac vs. Old Mac. It's where Mick, John, and Christine were on Dec. 31, 1974 compared to where Stevie and Lindsey were in terms of where the careers were going.
By the same token, Ashlee Simpson and Britney Spears have had big hits on the radio, and they suck (sound familiar?). They did have a steady following. Dont' confuse a following with radio hits. The Grateful Dead had one of the most impressive followings in rock history, yet they only had one hit single in their entire career. As for who people are going to talk about, yeah, Stevie was the most visible, as she should have been. The lead singer in most bands is usually the most popular. However, it should be noted that Christine had more hit singles with Fleetwood Mac than did Stevie.
Absolutely Mick. Warner's had the master of the white FM album in a pile of tapes to be erased. He said that if they weren't going to support the band, they wanted out of their contract. Uncle Mo (the president of Warner's) decided to keep the band on, as it was easier for him to work with a drummer than a suit. But, Mick still had to find somebody to remix "Over My Head" for the radio. And, Mick was the guy who decided to give their earnings back to promoters if a show didn't sell-out (yes, I said "sell-out," which the band did from time-to-time before Stevie and Lindsey graced it with their presence). So, really, I could argue that it was as much Mick's persistance with industry insiders as anything else that made Fleetwood Mac a success.
That's not a yes-or-no question. Since the band was pretty much off Warner's radar, and there was no manager breathing down their throats, the band had more time to actually think their music out a bit more. They were able to actually craft what they were doing, whereas before they'd write songs, practice songs, record songs, release albums, and tour. They were actually putting more thought into instrumentation, more complex harmonies, song arrangement (go to my site and check out "Blue Letter by the guys who wrote it), and album flow. The fact that they had a Brian Wilson-esq producer in the band only helped. The reason for the first point in my previous post is that the band DID record 5 albums in 3.5 years. I'm willing to bet that they spent more time recording the white FM album as they did the five albums with Welch. Add to that the obvious chemistry (though that wasn't necessarily a factor on "Over My Head") in the band, and I think Mick, who had been manager for less than a year at that point, finally realized that if they were going to make it, it was with this album, and they were going to have to fight for it.
That totally misses the point of what I've been talking about. The momentum was with Fleetwood Mac when Stevie and Lindsey joined. The ride was going up, and they got on at the right time. In any event, whenever I tell people I'm a Mac fan, I more often than not hear "oh, I really don't like Stevie Nicks." Or, if I talk to my music buddies, they'll talk at lenght about how great Peter Green is. I've got a coworker who loves Fleetwood Mac, and what she wants is a recording of Christine singing in a club! Hell, when my brother-in-law was just dating my sister, he heard I was a Mac fan and asked me if he could borrow the Bob Welch-era material. So, I don't totally agree with that sentiment.

I don't buy all that "right place, right time" nonsense. That's the bunk. Here's what happened to Fleetwood Mac in 1975 (which Samuel Graham was perceptive enough to point out): AM radio.

"Over My Head" was the band's first splash on AM radio, & AM radio is what put them across in America. It's called crossover appeal, & in 1975, that's how you achieved crossover appeal: you had a hit on AM radio. FM was still the haven for hippies & jam-oriented rock. Supermarkets & movie theaters didn't pipe in FM radio playlists. They piped in AM radio playlists. AM radio is what made Fleetwood Mac the band du jour with all the housewives & doctors & white-collar workers in their 30s & 40s & their kids who hadn't yet started smoking pot & listening to Deep Purple or Pink Floyd or "Hypnotized" on FM.

AM is what made Fleetwood Mac the biggest pop band in America. I know because I was an AM pop baby & knew that culture inside & out.

(Of course, by the time FM reached its pinnacle ascension in 1977 among ALL radio listeners -- & you weren't caught dead listening to AM unless you were sitting in your fishing boat & only had a little transistor radio with you -- Fleetwood Mac was welcomed with open arms to the Frequency Modulation world.)

You're correct. However, on the last point, about FM being welcomed on the FM side of the dial, I'd only say that they had been on the FM side of the dial for all of their careers up to that point. It was being welcomed on the AM side of the dial that had been the SOB. And, that's why Mick insisted they find an outside producer to remix OMH for AM. I think their appeal to both AM and FM audiences is one of the reasons they were as successful as they were. But, I'm still not of the ilk that their success can be pinpointed on any one or two factors, let alone crediting everything on the two Californians. I think the reasons for their success are just too numerous.

yeah, whatever...

fact remains, FM wouldn't have been FM without Stevie...they needed Stevie and Lindsey as much as Stevie and Lindsey needed them

Nor would FM have been FM without Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey, Bob, Peter, Danny, Billy...You get the point.
From a creative standpoint, I agree. I think Fleetwood Mac could have had a few big hits without Lindsey or Stevie, and they without Fleetwood Mac. But, I honestly don't believe that either situation would have been nearly as successful, or interesting. It's the difference in being a Peter Noone or being The Beatles.

I agree with Jyqm that Stevie wasn't the glue made a lot of songs successful hit singles (though, the harmonic love fest that is "Say You Love Me" was certainly a major group effort). However, I'll also acknowledge that her presence in concert was a major part of the band's success. But, it was only a part. It wasn't the whole story.

What does that even mean?

I don't recall anyone ever denying that. It's the "Fleetwood Mac would have been nothing without Stevie, obviously she was the star and the only one anybody ever cared about, she's the only reason any of them were ever famous or successful" attitude that's being taken issue with.

Well, Fleetwood Mac was Fleetwood Mac before Stevie and Lindsey were invited to join.

This debate is so old. I will never understand the vibe of competition that seems to exist between Stevie fans, Lindsey fans, fans of the pre BN Fleetwood Mac, post BN Fleetwood Mac, and SYW lineup. It all comes down to personal taste. And going back and forth about whether Fleetwood Mac would have been successful or would have disappeared from the music world without the addition of Stevie and Lindsey is pointless. We'll never know.

Can't we all just get along? :laugh:

Oh, that's just silliness.

Well...I don't believe they would have been "nothing", but I do believe that in the time, place, circumstances (the seventies) they were performing - that they would have been waaaay less without Stevie. Not because of talent, because we all know the real facts about that, but because of the many other unusual and timely factors (including talent, of course) that Stevie brought to the band. Video and audio was really taking off, and Stevie is fricking gorgeous. The rock chick thing was really coming into it's own, and again, there's Stevie. The new age stuff was really coming into the collective consciousness, and again, there she is. More people were including concerts as an important part of their life (lots of teens and twenties) - And Stevie is inarguably mesmerizing live. (at least at the beginning, she was).
This is all aside from her stunning and original voice, her electrifying stage performances, and her "bizarre" yet immediately engaging and purely viscerally affecting lyrics.
So...
would they have been anything without her? Yes, but I don't think they would have been as much.
Would she be anything without them??? Not as much, that's for damn sure.

It's all very even in my opinion.

The only thing that slants in Stevie's favor is charisma, and beauty, and timeliness - And you can't buy that, you can't practice it, and if you don't have it, it's just not there. And though some of the other band members are charismatic, notably Lindsey, they were just not as much. Because they were not the prettiest, or the most social. So, as I've always said, Stevie brought a SERIOUS "Star" component to FM. You may recall, as well, that Stevie was the one most willing to talk to the press. And she was the one they most wanted to talk to.

Again, aside from her vocal talent, which I think is considerable, but which i understand others may not agree with.

I think Stevie's apparent draw, popularity, recognition, etc. leaves a bad taste in peoples' mouths. Clearly, they all needed each other, at least up until Bella Donna and La Nicks would never have been able to make Bella Donna without FM. But, clearly La Nicks' personage on stage, willingness to work with many other artists, and her ambition off of it greatly added to the continued success of FM, which is no comment on the musical talents of any other band member or their vast efforts to make La Nicks' music into a marketable form.

Indeed. And let me tell you, after reading a few old interviews lately, I have to give Lindsey even more props as her arranger/producer - and to his superhuman ability to have stayed in the band as long as he did.

Those masters from Tango that were posted on the Rumours forum recently shed a lot of light on his magicianship. He did SO MUCH to Isn't It Midnight, and to Seven Wonders. I also refer time and time again in my own mind to the horrific demo of Thrown Down that was part of the TISL demos that floated around. I thought that song was garbage in its demo form. One of the weakest songs she ever demo'd and considered recording. He turned it into something decent.

This is slightly off topic, but that interview that was posted on Seven Wonders where Stevie says she was the reason for the tension in those sessions, and that Lindsey basically wanted to kill her...thank God for Sandy Stewart and her one solid song...if Stevie had sent Joan Of Arc, WISYA, and WTTRS to me to try and turn into something listenable, I would have quit the band on the spot. She gave them putrid table scraps of partial songs and he was expected to turn them into something edible. I have newfound respect for his stamina and ability to hold his tongue and temper after thinking about how much effort and creativity he had to pull out of thin air to put those pieces together. I still don't like the final products of those songs, but at least they didn't kill her career and reputation as a writer. They could have. Critics savaged them in their studio polished form.

Okay, carry on......kudos to AMber for the outro :xoxo:

Once again, I totally agree with you, Sparky. Mr Buckingham IS the man when it comes to turning Stevie's paper napkins into gold. Even if they are occasionally from Sandy Stewart's table.
Lindsey has more creativity in his pinky than most artist's in the top 40 will ever have in their entire career. The man knows his ****.
And I think she totally understands this.
I remember the quote from Cher..."without Sonny, there would be no Cher".

rbs

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the only people who can produce her well are the people who will stand up to her and fight her tooth and nail. Iovine did, and when he couldn't anymore, he left. Lindsey can. At this point in her career, there aren't many who will. Granted, I think Shanks hit an absolute home run with the TISL title track (and to a lesser degree POTU). His other efforts were spotty - I love how Sheryl Crow, Meg Ryan, and Laura Dern brow beat him into including the extra verses in FFG. When Stevie couldn't. At least he didn't include everything in it :laugh:

On the other hand, he is responsible for the swill that is "Everyday", but my opinion about the inclusion of that song doesn't need to be repeated yet again.

It's true - I've grown to have immense respect for Lindsey, especially after hearing some of Stevie's demos.
But then, none of my points was that the rest of the band weren't geniuses.
And LB gets number one genius status. At least as far as making..."her songs....into...recordzzz!":)

Although I still think he was probably an ass to her, most times. But thank god he still worked with her music. But I still don't think all that assishness was necessary. I mean, for all the great work he did, he still didn't totally think of those songs. So.

ahh...yeah, I guess

I never said she was the glue that made songs hits...and yes, everyone contributed...

apparently, you're smart enough...figure it out

I never said that. At all. Don't get so dang cocky...she was a major part of their success, as was Christine, et al. - but she contributed a bit more in certain ways, IMO

yes, they were...sheesh...and apparently felt SN/LB could bring some new life to the band

and no, we can't get along

of course you must chime in...big surprise there!

say what you will...I can think what I want

(sorry, I'm just in a crappy ass mood and this thread is pissing me off)

nicely put