A post from "Jesusland"
 

Hey Blue Staters!

Here's a Fleetwood Mac fan, Alabamian, Christian, Republican and overall basic lover of humanity who dropped in on Chit Chat, knowing what he would find, but dismayed by it all the same.

Dismayed because:
--vitriol is vitriol no matter what side it comes from
--in the process of accusing others of intolerance, many resort to intolerance themselves
--the same outpouring of hatred many of you accuse "Red Staters" of seems to go unchecked and practically unnoticed in your own ranks
--the same type of lashing out against homosexuals, African-Americans or other minority group would likely result in the offending parties being banned from this board (i.e., some brash, misguided individual posting a map branding New York state "Gayville")

It hurts when someone disagrees with you, and it hurts to lose a tough fight. But it also hurts to be openly ridiculed and beat to the dust by people who have absolutely no respect or understanding for what you believe, yet hate you for it without even asking.

None of you here know me, and thereby have no business making assumptions about me personally. But rest easy in the knowledge that you have made me feel most unwelcome at The Ledge.

Thanks, and congratulations for your "tolerance" ... and feel free to flame me into oblivion.

Yes you will probably be flamed. As I have been in the past.
I do agree with what you have said.
Many may feel the same way, but why would they bother posting just to be torn apart.

Alison,

Because it's worth saying. 'Nuff said.

i don't like people to feel bad, but some like you DO argue with others on here. Which you're free to do.
And you notice how a lot of the liberal Dems post news articles supporting thier points? You could do that as well. :wavey:

I'm one who does not agree with either of you. And I'm glad the two of you are so happy with the Chimp because I'm not!

For the record, a Southern Baptist and I live in South Carolina. And I'm a Democrat because I'm a Christian. I believe in helping the poor, and the downtrodden, and that all men (and women) are created equal. I own and have read several different translations of the Bible, and you know, in not a single one of those versions, do I recall Jesus hanging out with the rich and the powerful. He chased the moneychangers out of the temple. He fed the poor. He cured the sick. His friends were the poor, the lepers, and the prostitutes. The lowest of the low--no where do I recall Jesus taking trips on the corporate jets with his buddies from Enron (you know what I'm talking about here).

Yet, the warfare, and it is indeed warfare, that Republicans have engaged in against Democrats would have you believe that casting a vote for the Democrats is the same as voting for Satan. This is just beyond ridiculous. Yet, some Christians have been so misled by the Republicans that they have swallowed this malarky hook, line, and sinker. And they will, one day, I predict, choke on it as a result.

It's remarkable to me that George Bush, a man who only goes to Church during election years (and even that's pretty rare) can proclaim himself to be a Christian and everyone believes it. I say that you should be known by your works--not your words. And I see a president who has cut funding for the poor, for the aged, for children, for education, for social programs across the board. This is being a Christian???? Yet, he has no problems further enriching the wealthy and for endorsing programs and erasing laws that protect the environment and individuals from corporations. Doesn't that bother you? Because it should. In fact, it should scare you to death.

Let me ask you this--do you really think that the Anti-Christ would appear and proclaim himself the Anti-Christ? Of course not, he (or she) will put the most attractive, genial face on their evil as they possibly can. The Bible's pretty clear on this--it says that "many shall arise in my name." Just something to think about there for you today.

Does it not bother any of you who voted for this man that the very places that were attacked on 9/11 voted AGAINST this president? Does it bother you that he was warned that we were going to be attacked and did NOTHING about it? That he ignored the warnings?

Does it not bother you that there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein had a direct involvement in 9/11 or with Osama Bin Laden? or that there have been NO Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Iraq? That over 100,000 innocent civilians have been murdered in Iraq by our troops? And for what? Why are we there? This has not kept us safer and has instead, enabled Osama Bin Laden and the other terrorist groups to recruit hundreds if not thousands of fighters for their cause, against us.

Does it not bother you that the World thinks that we have lost our damned minds for electing this man for a second term? That we are now viewed as religious extremists who are pursuing an aggressive policy against other countries? That we have appointed ourselves the policemen of the world (*only applies to countries with rich oil reserves)?

And for your allegations that certain posts would be banned if they attacked gays or a certain race but that it's okay here to fire away at certain other groups (i.e. Republicans)--that's just a misrepresentation and you know it.

The truth is that you can't defend these positions and you know it or else you'd be making multiple posts like the liberals on this board do. But you can't because there's no there--there.

And you know, or you should know, in your heart of hearts that discriminating against the poor, and homosexuals, and other minorities is WRONG.

Please explain to me how Republicans and Conservatives came to be a protected minority when you control the White House, both Houses of Congress, and the Supreme Court? That's not a minority-it's a majority and I don't believe that special protection extends to majority groups, either here or in the "real world".

And on edit---if you have articles proving your positions or that support your view, by all means, post them. See, being liberal means having an open mind and I'm not afraid to read "the other side's" viewpoints. But they had better be grounded in firm fact or I'm going to pick them apart because that's something else liberals are good at--questioning the status quo and not drinking the kool-aid.

That's alright, I feel unwelcome in this country. ;)

As for the rest, ever stop to realize that people do understand what you believe and that's why they have no respect for it? My apologies, but I simply do not respect the belief that we should be in Iraq and killing innocent people or the belief that a woman does not have the right to choose. If you can sleep at night knowing that this country has gone to hell in a handbasket, I congratualte you. But don't expect people to respect such views that you might have about the direction this country is going into. Hell knows I don't expect Biblethumpers to respect my "loony" views. There's a fundamental difference between respecting a person's right to hold certain views and respecting a certain view itself.

Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :xoxo:

I stopped taking things personally - because I think the problem many have on here is with the religious right - and come on - I think they're justified in their anger and such...

Now - no, I don't agree that it makes things better to just bash and demean those you are against, but it sometimes just allows an avenue to vent and therefore feel a little better - finding folks who agree with you and such...

Furthermore - I think the problem is - like it or not - Christianitly SHOULD NOT be ruling our country - I am a Christian and a believer - but I recognize that not everyone is that way - and I have to (and gladly) accept that because what is right for me is not right for everyone.

I know a lot of Christians feels justified because they know the "truth" but um...ya know - every other religion says the same thing....so whatever man - that theory doesn't float for everyone and therefore religion needs to be kept out of politics and it's not.

I want someone to give me ONE just one good, logical and well thought out reason against Gay Marraige - that has NOTHING to do with religion or faith - and I'll listen with an open-mind...but no one's been able to do that because it's totally a religious thing - errrggg.....

Anyway - let me ask - and I do respect the views of others - at least I Try to - it IS hard when people use God to divide and take away people's rights...anyway with ALL of the evidence of the wrongs Bush has done...why ? why? support a man who clearly has an agenda that is based soley on religion and class? I truly don't understand and it deeply saddens me...

Diss said:
Tell the gal what she's won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You, and Goldie, and the Democratic Underground taught me everything I know. (Well, that and my 40 years of living and my degrees in English and Poliltical Science.) :)

For the record, when I go off on the Republican party, it almost always is supported by facts so there is no assuming there on my part :srhug:

Moreover, I am not usually talking about all Republicans. In fact, far from it and I usually point that out. I am almost always talking about the far religious right (Flawell, Robertson, etc.) - which the current Pres. of the U.S. used to get himself elected and is now beholden to!!!!!!! I do not think there can be any argument about that as it is widely accepted as fact :shrug: I find that scary because those people are not about respecting anyone but what they perceive as a Christian, which is not even what the Catholic Church perceives as such. I mean the Catholic Church opposed the war in Iraq and is against the death penalty.

So, I am sorry if you took personally anything I said about the far religious right (Robertson, Falwell, etc.) if you are not part of that group. What I am not sorry for is attacking that intolerant ilk with fact based arguments. I mean if you put the shoe on the other foot for a secons and you were beaten down and called an unnatural against God sinner every day sometimes many times a day, lived in fear of someone beating the crap out of you just because you are different, and then told YOU were responsible for the terrorist attacks on America but are not clean enough to fight for your country unless you stay in the closet, I think you just might raise your voice. Well, that is how just about all of the gay Americans and those sho support them feel. I mean what are they supposed to do, have a sit in (levity on a serious topic :laugh: ) while W and his cronies rape America and deny anyone but the Christians govt. protected rights. That is B.S. and if it offends you to hear it called that - so be it.

I will say this though, I agree the hate comes from both sides and I, too, get sick of it. But, I am unsure how to stop it because, again, it is hard to not react in kind.

Tone: civil and with repsect

Me?! Oh, darling, what a compliment. :xoxo:

By the way to make something clear. I did not vote for Bush. I'm a Canadian.
If I was American, would I vote for Bush. Probably not, but I didn't care for Kerry either.
I think the poster was offended mostly for the Jesus land map, and the intolerance for Christians that seems to be on this board. Please don't paint us with the same brush as Jerry Farwelll, or what ever his name is, or even with Bush. But don't bash us becasue we have a personal relationship with Jesus our Lord and Savour, that you can not understand, or care to.

That I can agree with - I sure as hell AM NOT in the same category as - um that guy mentioned above....

And my post was to point out that I am a Christian and a Liberal. I think, therefore, I am both.

Actually, there is nothing inherently offensive in that map. Look again, it only says "Jesusland" and "United States of Canada" - No offensive words or anything. And, clearly, you don't find the word "Jesus" offensive, and probably not "Canada" either. Unless you were offended that where you live wasn't included as part of Jesusland? :shrug:

Yes, that was a beautiful post, I love Degee!! :blob2:

Thank you, Alison. Well said. :xoxo:

The quick rash of posts following mine managed to prove my point quickly and aptly.

No one here knows me, and thereby has no business assuming anything about me. Yet, because I say I'm a Christian and a Republican, already I've been:

--labeled a "Biblethumper"
--automatically assumed as a Bush voter
--told to "post articles" to support my position, as if all of us aren't smart enough to do it ourselves
--again, without KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT ME, talk about discrimination, hating gays, and having no regard for the less fortunate while I roll in piles of money
--and, incredibly, someone actually said it makes you feel better to "bash and demean" those you are against.

Since liberal Democrats are all about reaching across the "divide," how about getting to know me or people like me?

POLITICS: People who voted for John McCain in the primaries. People who believe (like most Republicans, and like our platform says) that the Federal government has no business in the private lives (or wallets) of individuals one way or the other. People who believe that churches, synagogues and mosques should have the same Federal support in helping the poor and needy (our God-given responsibility) that organizations like Planned Parenthood do.

RELIGION: People who understand and live by Jesus' teaching, and ONLY Jesus' teaching, not man-made doctrine or denominations. People who grew up in the VERY real intolerance of the Rural South and have come to reject much of their upbringing. People like my parents, who I've seen cry over their ballot because they can't decide which is more important: the life of an unborn child or the fundamental right of a woman to govern her own body.

Get to know me. There are a lot of us out here in "Jesusland" (and yes, that's the most hateful, sarcastic, offensive signature I've seen here at The Ledge... less for the words than for the idea behind them).

Sounds like a case of someone filtering things to suit their argument. ;)

That is NOT what I said....but perhaps it came across that way :shrug:

First off - NO ONE here is accussing you directly or judging you - I don't believe anyone has called you a Bible-thumper...perhaps I missed something...

I was simply trying to explain the difference between who these people are mad about - the religious right - the extremists who do everything BUT show God's love or any Christianity in their actions...:shrug:

It seems as though you're taking things WAY to personally ....I'm a Christian, I'm a liberal....yes, some on this board don't agree or even like my religion, and I also don't like to see it dragged through the mud - but I have pretty much caught on that they're pretty much talking about a specific group of religious folks - and not all of them in general...

:nod: :nod:

Incidentally - this person has also not addressed any questions or anything addressed to said person...hmmm :shrug:

I love these statements. I think it's very telling that you posted about the politics of others, invited "flaming," or whatever you call it, then conveniently leave out every detail of your own politics. Very slick. ;) Seems to me that if anyone assumes anything about you, it's because you left the door open yourself by introducing yourself as a Christian Republican who dislikes the way we talk politics without any exposition about yourself.

That's because they are too busy complaining that liberal Democrats don't reach out to them instead of posting their political beliefs while complaining about others. It boggles the mind. It also mystifies me as to why all the "reaching out" should be done by liberals and Democrats. :)

Well, with all due repect JamieSPC, you invited flames. This whole thread is antagonistic to blue staters. The intention seems to be to "stir the pot". Please tell us what you are "for" as opposed to what you are against. I don't know what the point of this is. You say you are misrepresented, so please represent. Who are you?

It may be difficult from your perspective to understand the level of rage and disillusionment that is caused by this president being re-elected. Wed the 3rd was so depressing to us. It was like being in a nightmare but not being able to wake up. It is difficult to understand how people could swallow all of the lies of this administration. Actually, it is impossible to understand from a liberal perspective. It just so happens that the "red states" did this. So we have to talk about "them" and try to understand. We have to try to comprehend the incomprehensible.

dissention,

You're right... I think it's telling, too. It tells me what I believe our biggest problem to be.

IMMEDIATELY, without asking or seemingly (and notice I said SEEMINGLY) caring, "Christian Republican" means "bigot, idiot, gay-hater, Bush supporter, religious right, Fallwell-watcher" etc. Just as to many, "gay" or "pro-choice" have their own degrading definitions. It's not even discussed. It's ASSUMED IMMEDIATELY.

And it's MY FAULT because I "opened the door" to this ridicule, as if I somehow deserve to be ridiculed in the first place!

Yeah, it was a trap. And I didn't mean to crash the party here, but PLEASE, don't forget the "other side" isn't always evil and intent on sending our country to "hell in a handbasket." Everybody in "Jesusland" isn't a hateful, simmering bigot or a festering idiot.

And the point of this, as asked by Suze, is to say that working out your frustrations with insults and (let's just call it what it is) outright hatred is not acceptable. There's been enough of it on both sides that no one in this argument has clean hands.

That's why I was depressed on November 3.

This thread is one reason why I don't believe in organized religion. I grew up in a Lutheran church. We were constantly bashed by other churches in the area because we were "too liberal" and "not Christian enough" because we do not believe in being "saved" in order to get to heaven. Lutherans believe that baptism is the only "saving" a person needs. People would beg me to come to their church in order to be saved. They thought they were "right".

Now, I have formed my own beliefs on the concept of God, and I feel spiritually healthy. That's all that matters, right? Having a faith that carries you through the day.....

I'm done with people telling me what to do and how to act to be a Christian. Everyone thinks they are right and quite possibly they could not be. All I know is that God loves me....gay, liberal, and all. :D

Nor did I say they were. But certainly, if you were in my "loony" liberal, blue state shoes, you would be quite incredudlous as to the intent of a thread started by someone who describes themselves as a Christian Republican in Alabama and who calls out the "Blue Staters." Surely you see how your thread came off and surely you know that the intent of your thread was not only to piss us off, but to invite flames so that you could sit back and claim that we simply proved your point.

Get over yourself, self-righteousness is an unbecoming personality trait.

Yep, Curtis. I've all but abandoned denominational religion. I see no provision for it in the Bible, and it seems that's where most "religious" people have to line up instead of thinking for themselves.

I go to church, for sure. I've been blessed enough to find a place, and a commmunity of people, who love me for who I am and encourage individual study over mindless indoctrination.

Like Paul said... "work out your own salvation."

First off, this is not intended for one party or the other. It's intended to be read by both. Maybe I'm shallow minded, or don't enjoy a debate with my fellow posters, but this is what the conversation of religion and politics will always lead to. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs. There is no right or wrong in either. Therefore, my OPINION is that religion and politics are somewhat overdiscussed here, and therefore leads to endless arguements, and some hurt feelings. Can't we all accept that everyone here has a difference of opinion, without everyone getting so pissed off? :shrug:

With all due respect, I never assumed as such :shrug:

Yeah, for me, it hard understand how ANYONE, liberal, repub, whatever, can stand for the lies of this administration. Jamie, you should be up in arms as an American for what the Bush administration has done, and then lied about, TO YOU, AND TO ALL OF US. This man is your president, and he lied his ass off TO YOU TO, JAMIE.

I think Jamie's distaste for the current discourse of American politics should be laid on the shoulders of the party and the administration that is largely responsible for it, both in policy decisions and outright nastiness when it comes to human behavior. No one is claiming to be an innocent when it comes to talking politics, I certainly don't. I know I'm an asshole and a rather opinionated bastard when I tlak politics, but I'd rather be an asshole in approach than naive in belief.

Truer words have never been spoken - just as everyone in Mass. is not liberal W claimed them to be.

My problems rests solely in the far religious right, which is increasingly becoming the Republican party - if it has not yet consumed them. It started with Robertson in the late 80's and it has ballooned since.

In my opinion, to be a Republican and not be for automatic rights for the Christians and no one else is a conflicting position - because that is what is happening. I saw Karl Rove on Meet the Press on Sun. and he was quick to cite the ideals of the Republican Party to wit: less gov., less intrusion into out private lives, etc. - then he, of course quoted Scripture in what I took as a high sign for the flock watching him. Yet, W wants to do exactly that and more and he has achieved that goal in a lot of ways!!!!!! I mean the govt. under W is the largest it has ever been and it has the most rights combined in one Act than has ever been done so before :shrug: That is why, contrary to DeeGeMe's opinion :wavey: (levity) - I am not a Republican. In fact, I really tow no party line. I call B.S. B.S. when I see it :shrug: Again, if that offends anyone - so be it.

:nod:

I've had that same "spiritually healthy" feeling since about a year and a half ago, when I decided that denominational/organized religion was not for me and began to just "go my own way."

-Justin

Holy crap... the reason I took a break from posting was because of all the political/debate crap, and here I come back and its only gotten worse. *dies*

Unfortunately, I live in Jesusland. I have been back to the midwest for 8 months now, and I am just flabbergasted at the conservative turn this area has taken. When I first became eligible to vote (a looooooooong time ago), this area was far more liberal than it is now. Several people that I spoke with over the last few months about the issue of gay marriage stated they were against it because "the bible says it's wrong". Honestly I don't remember ever hearing so many people quoting the bible in all my years of living here previously. I'm certainly not the most liberal member of this board, but living around all this "rightness" has made me more liberal every day.

Jason is right, in that the Republican party used to be the party of limited government and fiscal responsibility. Bush has done everything in his power to reverse that. The government is huge and Bush and Co. want to intrude on all areas of our lives.

So Jamie, sorry if we offend you, but the state of our country is pretty offensive right now.

Well, the election stirred up alot if emotions on both sides :shrug: AND - this is a place where some people can speak freely (on both sides). Admittedly, it is heavily liberal, but IMO that is because the people who voted for W cannot cite facts to support their decision when called on the carpet to do so. Who would want to be in that argument on that side - I sure would not :shrug:

Finally, people, esp. gay people, see W as wanting to put them in concentration camps. While I think the theory that idea is a little fallacious, it does seem that the majority of Americans do not mind gay people as long as they do not have to see their dirty sinful ways. I think that sucks. I think this is America and if you want to hold you partner of any type's hand in public, you ought to be able to. Sadly, the far religious right is apoplectic at the thought to wit: Jerry Falwell BLAMED gay people, abortionists, and the ACLU for the invoking the Wrath of God or at least God removing His protection from the U.S. (as opposed to any other country mind you) and allowing 9/11 to happen. Then, about a month or two ago, Falwell said he would kill any gay man that approached or hit on him. Granted he retracted those statements, but the clear history of him is that those retractions are meaningless and not in any way indicative much less dispositive of his true beliefs. I mean how would you feel if someone had the effrontery to lay the most horrible thing ever to happen to the U.S. ever on you shoulders. And - this man has an effect on or controls the thoughts of millions of Americans who are now salivating to put those sinners in their place and take America back for their god. I think you'd be pissed.

Something similar happened to Southern Baptists (that's how I grew up) in the early 90s. Somewhere along the line the whole organization became so politicized... it became less about fulfilling the mission Christ left us with and more about boycotting this and that. And, leadership just ASSUMED everyone was on board. WRONG!

This election was very similar... there are millions of people in the political wilderness right now because millions more feel they have to label themselves something. And both sides hate the other side. dissention, that is NOT the current administration's fault. That has been going on for decades, since the days of LBJ and Nixon. In many ways, you can blame it on Vietnam, which alienated an entire generation.

I posted (call it self-righteous if you will) to remind Blue Staters that there are people like me out there. Some voted for Bush, some voted for Kerry, more than a few voted for Nader (I personally know lots of people who did, even in ALABAMA!). And I find it hard to vote for the party whose platform I agree most with, because the people who end up running on it stomp it into nothingness.

My first non-Fleetwood Mac post (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=176861) was months ago and dissention warned me I would stick out like a sore thumb. Well, right on.

I agree - I was laothe in many ways to vote for Kerry. In fact, in many ways, I voted against the only viable alternative to W, which was W.

Interestingly, I think trends historically fail once they get too much power. So, the pendulum will swing back - at least I hope.

:cool:

They tend to forget the verses about the relationship between David and Jonathan.....

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