Something I have long believed, now being confirmed
 

I saw this headline today on Yahoo News: Arab TV exec states Muslims are responsible for Majority of Terrorism worldwide

Siege Prompts Self-Criticism in Arab Media
Sat Sep 4, 9:23 AM ET
By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt - Muslims worldwide are the main perpetrators of terrorism, a humiliating and painful truth that must be acknowledged, a prominent Arab writer and television executive wrote Saturday, as Middle East media and officials expressed horror at the bloody rebel siege of a Russian school.

**********************
As I note the news around the world, it is a truth that everywhere you have battle, bloodshed and strife, you have Muslims. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, Phillipines, Israel, Iraq, Iran.......Radical Muslims to be sure, but Muslims nonetheless. Now, an Arab writer and tv exec has come out and bravely said this very thing. While these radicals represent a fraction of the whole, why is it that the Muslim community doesnt do more to curtail their activities? There are huge sums of money being channeled to the terrorist cels via wealthy contributions from governments, and in some cases private individuals as a means to buy off these terrorists and hopefully allow them to direct their dastardly activities elsewhere. Muslims say that the Koran does not condone killing of innocents, but yet, it is happening and these radicals point to the Koran as their justification, saying that they are fighting a holy war, or jihad. What usually follows then, is a debate over just what constitutes a holy war, and the proper definition of prisoners of war, and what to do with them. For a look at two sides of the argument: Al Qaeda v. Koran and Using the Koran to justify beheaddings both links are from the National Review Online, a hardline conservative website....(btw, I am a hardcore Democrat)

Because no one within the Muslim community will step up and stop these radicals, it is left to the world at large to counteract them, and I am afraid I forsee the Biblical Armageddon coming to pass....

you're missing the point..
 

my point is, everywhere there is warfare, there are Muslims.
Muslims occupy an area, and then cause strife because they want to have an independent Muslim state where ever they are...do you remember Pakistan?
That was once part of India, but the Muslims occupied it, and began insisting on their own state. Same thing in Chechneya and Israel.....This is a pattern of establishing little pockets of Muslim countries/states inside of larger countries/states...and yes, there is battle on both sides, but the history goes back centuries and I have found that over the course of time, the Muslims are more often the aggressors, and only now, due to global news, are we seeing what is happening. Unfortunately, as in the case in Bosnia, it was Milosivec's (sp?) turn to retaliate...and the world was aghast. When you do a search for Croatia or Serbia, you get a different picture of what happened. Another group that has suffered at the hands of the Muslims is the Kurds in Turkey.
So, I suspect in Russia with the Chechneyans, there has been much back and forth, but I sympathize with Russia.

this is BY FAR the most STUPID and APPALLING statement i ever read on these boards EVER.
you really made my blood boil, is there any kind of thinking mechanism which seperates your fingers from the keyboard AT ALL, or you just barf whatever's that pops up? what do you mean by "causes"?? is this some kind of a pavlovian reaction of being forced to explode civilians when you're politically dissatisfied that we have to "take into consuderation" i wonder? WHAT ON EARTH CAN JUSTIFY those hundreds of butchered russian kids? nothing justifies the dangers lurking on every bus station and resturaunt in my country, nor the lives of 9.11's victims and those australians who lost their lives in Bali in 2002.
terror can NOT be justified by ANY reason.

yes darling. that's right. there are goverments and other political organizations which are responsible for dealing conflicts. when those fail, there are armies. under no circumstances can terrorist groups or individuals should be allowed to take action.

i'm not expecting any patriotism. but since i'm hopeless in turning to the reasonable side, i tried the humane sentiment (and in vain as just been witnessed).

excuse me, but understanding the reasoning behind it IS IN FACT A JUSTIFICATION.
if people are "pushed to their limits" and need a new and different political solution they must reach out to their politicians for aid, not blow up innocent children. it has nothing to do with the israeli-palestinian problem or any other conflict, it's just a matter of basic civility and nothing more.

no you don't. see? that's just a part of your western/christian/democratic way of thinking, when in fact if you were a North Korean or a Libyan, you would have been taught to think otherwise.
please Lux, go to sleep now, i know it's very late in australia, and your brain cell sure seems to be needing its rest.

i didn't suggest you were high, but if i can beat you in such an easy argument while I'M high and your'e "thinking clearly" what can it teach us?

ps
please do not reach out for me next time when you try taking your own life.
success is just a step away.

well....
(on second thought, some things are better left unsaid)
nevermind.
thank you.

ok, it is now obviously clear that (despite living in the world's most terrorized country for 32 years or so) i do know nothing about it, so i guess i'm gonna have to retreat at this point. i think i've already made myself look stupid enough.

dont you mean the IRA? after all, arent they considered terrorists? Actually, I sympathise with their plight, because they are trying to eject the English interlopers. which is why your comment doesnt apply. In every case I mentioned, the Muslims were the interlopers. They came to an area, occupied it, grew in numbers, and then agitated for statehood, or independence. The Muslims are incapable of living peaceably with their neighbors anywhere because they see any non-Muslims as infidels, and have no compunction about killing them. in fact, some even think they are racking up good points for their afterlife by styling what they are doing a holy war.

No, I stand by my original statement: the Muslims are the cause of strife and bloodshed around the globe. and I believe that the Arab tv exec who had the guts to actually say it out loud should be applauded. I am sure he is now considered a traitor by his own countrymen...

Actually Tommer, the Irish have you beat.....but, I AM an Israeli sympathizer.

So what's the answer? Genocide? :confused: Some of the "Muslims" who flew planes into the WTC's were notorious party boys who indulged in strippers and cocaine.
What about the Basque Separatists? The Khmer Rouge? The Red Brigade? Sendero Luminoso?

There are Muslims all over the world who live in peace in their communities and would never kill anyone based on the way some of their peers interpret the Qur'an. Yes, Muslim groups are responsible for a lot of terrorism across the globe, but be very careful not to demonize all Muslims with such a reactionary blanket statement.

Golddust: I dont know what the answer is, I am just afraid that in the end, we are going see a HUGE culture clash that may well be the prophesied Armageddon.....btw: those "party boys" violated several of the Tenants of Islam by indulging in drugs/alcohol and their dealings with unclean women! Im sure their reward is NOT going to be what they had hoped for~

EnchantedSLN: I said in my original statement that it is the Radical element that is doing the actual terrorism, but I also hold the rest of the Muslim community responsible because they arent doing anything to stop their own. They will decry the radical's actions publicly, but privately, many are channeling HUGE sums of money to these monsters. Lets face it, without these contributions, the radicals would not be able to do what they are doing! it takes LOTS of $$ to carry off the type of operations such as 9/11 and others....so, if the moderate Muslims dont wish to be tarred with the same brush, maybe they should stand up to these radicals, and the hardline clerics and realize that they have to share the world with the rest of us.

Now you're on to something. :nod: Who's giving them the money? It ain't small donations. Follow the money.
With respect ot 9/11, what occured on the surface would seem to indicate radical muslims but the deeper wade into those waters, the more you will find certain factions of the Saudi government and royal family and their connections to the NeoCons in our own government.
Why did Bush redact 27 pages of the 9/11 commission report that dealt with the Saudis? You'll find the answer in the thread I posted about Senator Graham's book.

the money trail
 

Well, now, I have known for some time that the Saudi Royal family has been paying off the terrorists in exchange for letting things be in Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is very vulnerable. In Saudi Arabia, they are seen as part of the problem because they make deals with Westerners, especially the US which many Arabs see as evil. Therefore, the Saudi Royals pay the terrorists large amounts of money with the agreement that they will not act against the House of Saud. Not only that, but there are other wealthy sympathizers who give large amounts of $$ to wage war against the infidels. PUBLICLY, the Arab world says that the terrorism is bad, but PRIVATELY, it is a different story. This is part of my issue with the rest of the Muslim community: I think they need to play a bigger role in stopping their own criminals. Otherwise, it appears to me as though they condone these acts of terrorism. If they sit by and do nothing, even though they proclaim the acts as evil, then their words
are hollow and false. And to me, they are just as bad as the terrorists themselves. And funding these terrorists is EVIL.

Also, I have heard that part of the cause of 9/11 resides in the White House. This would not surprise me in the least. I think Dumbya is capable of a LOT.

When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)


how often would you find such statements in the bible or the new testament?

easy.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com

Not that I agree with everything said on that site, but the point is: if you look hard enough, you can find quotes just about anything good or bad in most holy books.

Yep..
 

Also from the Qur'an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion.
2:256

Do not let the injustice of others lead you into injustice.
5:8

[Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you] but begin no hostilities. Allah loveth not aggressors.
2:190

Do not destroy yourselves; surely, God is most gracious to you.
4:29

Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians, and Sabians--any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness-- shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear....
2:52

Every religion's holy book has parts that are selectively ignored and/or attributed to the social/political contexts of the historical period they were written in or bias of the writer. I.e. in Christianity you don't still stone people and sell your children into slavery or persecute Pagans. Not every Muslim accepts the parts of the Qur'an you quoted just as not every Christian accepts all parts of the Bible. Strict adherance to and belief in everything in the Qur'an is not required for one to be a Muslim, and in fact, there are plenty who dismiss a great deal of what's in the Qur'an.

Mari dug up some good examples of comparable verses in the Bible.

Also, a triviality, but "holy war" is one of multiple translations of "jihad" (and incidentally the media's favorite.) Some scholars interpret it as "struggle in the name of Allah," which does not necessarily mean war in the combat sense.

very well said tiff!!!~ :thumbsup:

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com
this site was very interesting 2 me, thanx 4 the link~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

And...

ALL people from Massachusetts are overtaxed assholes who will gladly rip someone a new asshole if they're challenged on anything.

I'm living proof. :laugh: :wavey:

The words "Arab" and "Muslim" are not mutually exclusive. Only about 12% of Muslim are Arabs.

Gold Dust:
I am not sure why you think I needed reminding of that, I was giving just ONE example of where the terrorists get their money. Maybe only 12% of the Muslims are Arab, but the VAST MAJORITY (if not ALL) of the Arabs are Muslim. And the Saudi Royal family pays the terrorists to leave them alone so they can continue their tenuous rule. Most Saudis deplore the Sauds having ANYTHING to do with Westerners, especially the US which they believe is helping Israel. Again, this is just ONE source of terrorist funding, there are also wealthy sympathisers, as I mentioned before. Also, Osama bin Laden is independently wealthy and we all know where HIS $$$ is going....

Didnt anyone read my original links?
 

in my first post, I listed two links which debate this very issue (the Koran and its stance on jihad/prisoners) Please go back and take a look at them. And, in spite of what the Koran says about peace, etc, Mohammed himself killed women and elderly who got in his way. There is a HUGE difference between Mohammed the Prophet and his example and Jesus Christ (Messiah for some) and HIS example. Jesus led a blameless life. NO WHERE will you find Jesus advocating any kind of war or strife or struggle. NOSIR. in EVERY instance, Jesus advocates turning the other cheek, rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and ultimately, dying to redeem the sins of the world. The entire message of the New Testament is that the old eye for an eye mentality is finished. The new message is to Love your neighbor. HUGE difference from a religion that condones conversion by force.

And another thing: I am most assuredly NOT PC here. My firm belief is that these radicals are the new face of Islam because the Moderates, in their refusal to do anything about the atrocities commited have abdicated their responsibility. Only another Muslim can reason with these radicals, they sure as HELL are NOT going to listen to Westerners. The only way this will stop is if some brave Muslim leader emerges who exposes the radicals as the monsters they are, and puts a STOP to the funding........until that time, we are all in for more ugliness.

I did, and I still think some of your comments are terribly ignorant.

Here are a few more links.

http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://www.al-islam.com/eEvent.asp#1
http://www.mpfweb.org/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ter...sm_verses1.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

There ARE prominent figures in the Muslim community speaking out against terrorism. Should there be more? Yes. This still does not validify sweeping generalizations about all Muslims or make Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorist activities responsible for them.

On the Contrary
 

Muslims who stand by and do nothing are just as culpable as Muslims who engage in terrorism. Because by their silence the Moderates are by extension condoning such activities. You dont have to agree with me. It makes no difference, BUT: the terrorism will continue until the Moderates take a stand, and Until they do, I hold ALL of them responsible. And: I am not ignorant. I am just fed up. I have seen DECADES of this sort of thing, unlike you. I am at least 20 yrs older than you so I know that silence is one of the biggest accomodators of this sort of crap. If you say nothing, the garbage goes on, and gets worse. Also: this is more of the same sort of agitation that Muslims have engaged in (tho in a less effective scale) for centuries. Please dont expect me to show any consideration for this group. At least Christians have the ability to recognize their past evils such as the Inquisition, and the Salem Witch hunts and even to some extent the Crusades....

I have no problem being the ONLY person on this board who feels this way (or the only one with the GUTS to say so) I think what the Muslim Radicals are doing around the World STINKS. From Chechneya to Bosnia to Phillipines to Iraq, to Iran to Palestine, to NY City, to Israel, and on and on and on.
Go ahead and try to sugar coat it. the fact remains, the worlds HOT SPOTs are occupied by Muslims who refuse to peacefully coexist with their neighbors, or accept the fact that the World has evolved beyond the Golden Age of the Ottoman Empire.

My goodness, this sounds so familiar...I wonder where I've heard it before. Wait, isn't that how our great nation was founded? Yes yes, Christianity doesn't have the purist history record either. In fact, I do believe I remember it was the Christian church that originally said in the Crusades that anyone dying in battle will immediately go to Heaven. By the way, I'm not a Muslim.

And people wonder why I am so against religion in schools. Just look at what one discussion has done here...

Islam allows killing of prisoners if....
 

Islam allows the killing of prisoners if...
this is just one example, more to follow...

Ps
 

I am a FIRM believer in separation between Church and State. I am not advocating any Christian Religion because I know they have their issues too.
BUT: what I AM saying is: around the world any hotspot you can think of, there are Muslims. It is a FACT. It is UNDENIABLE. It may also be politically incorrect to say so but that's never stopped me. Sorry. Im old enuff to know that this sort of thing is not going to stop until some POWERFULL person/country steps up and stops it. You can say "bigot" all you want, but I am not the one bombing innocents, or taking prisoners, or using ill gotten $$$ to further a corrupt agenda. Sorry. you need to direct your ire elsewhere.

religion
 

This thread is a good example of why I have no use for organized religion of any kind whatsoever.

None of the religions is innocent of killing those not like themselves.

I happen to think Christianity has one of the worst records there is.

Crusades: slaughter of both Muslims and Jews

Charlemagne: forced Saxons to be Christians at swordpoint

Let's not forget the Inquisition

Reformation and assorted religious wars thereafter for about 125 years cost hundreds of lives

Queen Mary of England-known as Bloody Mary: "The only good end for a Protestant is burning" (since he is going to burn anyway in hell, see)

Conversion of the Native Americans in the New World

The Catholic-Protestant war in Ireland..

The Holocaust-the majority of Christians sat by and did nothing including the Pope

At least one branch of my family was sent to America- "transportation" they called it- for being Methodist instead of Anglican..

I could go on..

The Muslims have done their share too-yes, they have holy war, but they don't deny it at least or say they love everyone..I am no religion and will never be but I can't see blaming just one religion for all the terror in the world..

I couldn't agree more. Excellent post.

i agree. definetly.

but then again vianna, those examples you gave just comes to show the evolution of christianity, its state today is a result of addressing those past embarressments and learning from them, along with the separation between religious laws and the state's law. i fail to see this happening anywhere within the muslim/arab nations yet.

Well said Tommer, my point exactly.
Well, then lets go back even further to England, the master colonizer of the world.

btw: I voted AGAINST the current crop of trouble makers. and as for your other comment, I agree that this country was stolen from the Native Americans.
Unfortunately I dont see any way to reverse the problem...

"i fail to see this happening anywhere within the muslim/arab nations yet."

tommer, I kind of doubt it ever will. Their first community way back in Medina after Muhammad escaped Mecca was a religious community (no separation between church and state), and I think (though I may be wrong) that this is their model so to speak. The Qu'ran may even speak to this issue, I don't know.

Also what a fight it was to separate church from state in Christianity! It took hundreds of years, and America partially has the First Amendment because of that fight...and this is one reason Bush's being so friendly with the religious right in America scares me so...

Vianna, you are right...
 

In Islam, the Church IS the State. That is part of the problem Muslims have with Westerners.

Lux: After the Twin Towers fell, I remembered images of whole villages out in the streets, dancing, clapping, shooting off their guns, even toothless little old ladies celebrating that the Evil west was dealt a blow... You say that the majority of Muslims are just trying to live their own lives, and that may be true but until THEY do something about this horror, it wont stop. And the answer MUST come from within the Muslim community, because they wont listen to outsiders. There is plenty each family can do: stop glorifying terrorists and terrorism, stop sending young boys to Madrassas where they learn to HATE the west, stop funding terrorists, stop looking the other way when terrorists meet right down the street. Tell the authorities, keep the children out of Madrassas, stop making martyrs out of suicide bombers...

Funny thing is...
 

they already do.
and you're incredibly naive if you think only a few people celebrated and everyone else was in bed asleep or having dinner...I remember reporters saying that it was the topic of conversation EVERYWHERE, on the streets in the cafes in the businesses. Instead of being sickened about the loss of innocent life, people actually encouraged their young to JOIN the effort. It appears to me you are actually trying to MINIMIZE the problem!! As far as I am concerned, if one of their own can accept the fact that Muslims are responsible for the majority of terrorism worldwide, Im going to applaud him and say "Its about stinkin time."

Also: its incredibly hypocritical to blame America and say "look at all the bad we've done" and yet take our money or accept our military help or our care packages or any other showing of good will (Which is EXACTLY what the Arab nations have done). No matter what you say about America's policies you dont agree with, its an undeniable fact that America has also done at least as much good, if not more. So, on the whole, I am content with America's track record. Deal with it.

Lux, calling your perspective "naive" is a big compliment.
the truth of the matter is that there is a HUGE difference between the arab external front and their internal one (and please, don't claim i'm "not-in-the-know" this time, coz it's me who have some 20 arab channels on my tv and it is me who can understand their native tongue instead of their english spokesmen, okay?). the anti-western (or anti-jewish) propaganda is NOT some kind of underground ****, limited to a few extremist groups. it is a VERY common agenda, which is just a scapegoat for those corrupt and oppressive regimes in order to ignore their REAL domestic problems (such as poverty, lack of political freedom, higher education, limited human rights ect...). once their extremists won't be so obsessed with those external problems, they'll start stirring their domestic pots, and that's where their leaders' main fears lay.