This absolutely disgusts me.
 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...us_film_gibson

I know that this is Mel Gibson's father's beliefs, but Gibson really owes the public an explaination about this-- especially considering all the talks of anti-semitism in the media lately. He said to Diane Sawyer that being an Anti-Semite was un-Christian, and against his beliefs. Well obviously his father thinks differently.

I know this is a very controversial topic but I had to vent here. I just don't see how some people can be so disgusting.

That is pretty bad. It also raises the age old argument of "Did the Jews exxgerate the concentration camp deaths to make themselves more pitiable in the eyes of the world." I do not buy that argument because while I am sure that some people could not be accounted for and were presumed to have been killed in the camps (it was after all a war and records were not really kept), these numbers are irrelevant because so many did actually die. I mean how can these people think a million people are organized enough, esp. in the state of mind they were in once released from the death camps, to be in on a conspiracy and never fould it up once. :cool:

I almost want to laugh at these statements, but unfortunately there are still enough people out there who believe this nonsense.

But let's keep something in perspective here. Mel Gibson is coming across as a real fanatic these days, what with the anti-Vatican II talk and the wide-eyed glazy gaze, but can we hold him responsible for what his 83-year-old father says? I think not.

I agree his father is his own man. But, did you see that interview with, I think, Diane Sawyer. I was like WTF - he looks crazy as a loon :laugh: He has always been a little fanatical, but to say his wife is going to hell or at least cannot get into heaven because she is not a Catholic :confused: Do people really still think this way, esp. since Protestantism was created to rememdy the corruption of the old Catholic Church? :laugh:

I would like to see the movie, but apparently it is full of gore (not AL :laugh: ) and is very, very violent. I do not handle those two things very well, esp. when it is a "real story" like this as opposed to something like Lord of the Rings, which is fantasy, etc. I may rent it when it comes out on DVD so I can take it in small doses :laugh:

Finally, most people who have seen it and commented on it have said it is not anti-sementic. I think the fear is the film is so violent that it will again raise the spectre of Jews being persecuted as "Christ killers" - which is a sad thing.

While Mel Gibson cannot be held accountable for his fathers words and actions, it does raise some questions. Gibson has said that his father is very close to him and that his fathers beliefs were preached to the family often. With the release of The Passion (which I personally believe to be anti-semitic), it makes people wonder if his fathers beliefs rubbed off on Gibson.

A friend of mine got a preview DVD that was sent to churches (it isn't the entire film, just some select scenes and a Mel Gibson interview thing; nothing special, really) and I was a bit shocked when I watched it. I'm not religious at all, but I was curious about the movie. My impression from what I saw was that the Jews were completely responsible for the death of Jesus and that they will forever be damned for it. I found it to be absolutely ludicrous and it's going to fuel the hatred towards Jews that some religious zealots already feel. The second shocking thing was the violence. It's *extremely* violent and I mean graphically violent.

I think mel Gibson needs to take a couple of years retirment and stop shoving this horse **** down our throats. Jews view this as offensive and I can't blame them. The fact that Gibson won't take responsibility for its anti-Jews message is shocking in itself.

Ask your church if they have the preview DVD, I was told it was sent out to churches everywhere.

He looked more coked up than Whitney during that interview; I was amazed. :nod:

But, I am at a loss to understand why showing the agony of Christ is per se anti-semitic. I mean if you believe The Bible, particularly the Gospels, which is what this film apparently pretty much exactly follows, then the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death. The Romans certainly had a hand in it (or at least a washed PP hand :laugh: ) , but the Jews organized it, etc. So, while I think maybe the tone may be anti-semitic (I have not seen it), to say it is per se anti-semitic (which I am not sure you are saying but clearly some are) would mean the story of Christ could never be told as portrayed in The Bible out of fear that the Jews would be cast in a poor light. I think that is wrong.

Interestingly, I do believe the Biblical version of events in the Gospels are probably mostly accurate because the Herrod was a Jew, but I also think the Catholic Church hyped up the Jews' role to make people hate Jews and want to be Catholic. Certainly the CC tried other ways, albeit later, to convert Jews a la the Inquisition.

I'm not religious and I've never even picked up a Bible (I guess that's a red herring that I'm a liberal :laugh: ), so I won't presume to know what it says.

BUT, being a non-religious person and seeing parts of that vile film, I was left with an awful taste in my mouth. It made *everyone* but the Jews seem like good guys. They even made the Roman emperor (I don't know his name) as a person who sympathized with Jesus and wouldn't take part in his crucifixtion! Sorry, I was appalled.

And regardless what the Bible says, I could care less. it's a known fact that people believe what they want to believe when it comes to the "Book." :rolleyes:

Pontius Pilate is a fascinating story. Here is a cite that tells it

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/pilate.htm

Note the line "Let His Blood be on us and on our children!" is why many persecute the Jews for the crucifixion of Christ.

Also, the movie is meant to horrifying because it was a horrifying event and the Jews were the bad guys :shrug: Interstingly, Chist forgave them in his final dying exclamation "Forgive them Father for they know noe what they do." That is good enough for me :shrug:

Thanks. :D

In the preview DVD, they kept the line you just quoted above, but in the Primetime interview, Gibson said that it will be cut from the theater prints.

I just don't like what I've seen and judging from the reaction the film has had on audiences, I don't know if it will do a service or a dis-service.

Altough I think the line should be in there, I am not upset he is cutting it. People like Hitler used this line to persecute the Jews. So, it is a good thing it is being cut even if inaccurate.

My 2 pennies...
 

I'm a Christian...not Catholic tho. I don't like to put myself in any category. :shrug: Anyways, I don't believe the Jews killed Jesus....the entire human race from the beginning of time to now to the future "killed" him. Sure, there were probably Jews (as well as others) at his crucifixtion, but to "blame" a certain type of people is absurd.

Jesus came to earth to die. That was his "secret ambition", to die for our sins so that we may go to be with Him in Heaven for eternity. God sent his only Son to die that whosoever believed in Him, will live forever. That was his purpose....and it was our sins that "killed" Christ.

Your Bible lesson for the day, kids. :laugh:

I wanted to add that not every single fact that happened in history is stated in the Bible, so we have come to ASSUME many things as in....Jews were the ONLY ones who persecuted and were at Christ's death. How do we know this for 100%? We don't, we weren't there.

God will answer questions for us when the time comes...IMO. I have TONS to ask. :)

As a Jew, a history teacher, and a person with quite an interest in and respect for Christianity, Mel Gibson's recent choices offend me on many levels. I won't even get into the subject of his dad. And I'm going to leave it at that.

- Jake

Re: My 2 pennies...
 

True and that is consistent with Christianity and its teachings. In other words, God is omnipotent - therefore he knew man would fail and kill his Son, who was part of Him in the Holy Trinity. But, it begs the question of why did God chose the Jews as his instrument when the Romans were pagans and antagonistic toward the Hebrew God of Abraham?

I find it all fascinating, esp. the point of view that the story of the agony of Christ can be told while still painting the jewish faith at that time in a good light :cool:

Note: The Jewish like the Catholic faith is no longer ruling bodies. Therefore, they are not like they were prior to about 200 years ago. So, comparing the faiths today to the faiths then is like comparing apples and oranges for the most part. Now the fundamentalist christians have taken over and are trying to assert their doctrines as the law.

Perhaps....
 

Me too!!

I would say, perhaps, God was trying to show that even though the Jews were the chosen people....they have faults, just like every human on earth?

:shrug:

I'm not God, I dunno. LOL

Re: Perhaps....
 

ITA AND Christ forgave them all - Romans, Jews, mankind in general. So who are the people who still blame only the Jews think they are following when they chose to ignore Christ's teaching and not forgive what Christ forgave. :shrug:

Exactly...
 

As God forgave us for our ugly sins, so we should forgive...70 times 70. :)

Well, folks, the Jews didn't kill Jesus and neither did the Romans. Probably. If it happened, it most likely would have been the Romans anyway.

Unless you literally believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected three days later, there's just simply no way it happened. Now if you believe that it literally happened, great. Read no further.

If you're like me and don't believe it, this presents a problem. Just how did the crucifixion story get its wings? One theory is that it was staged, that it actually took place in private land, which would be highly unusual for the Roman practice of very public crucifixions. So if you accept it was staged, no problem there. I'm not sure I accept that yet.

One could also conclude that when the prophet Jesus died on the cross, that was that. No resurrection took place, but as myths often do, this episode took on mythical proportions and over the ages it became accepted as fact. The Gnostic Gospels don't really deify Jesus the way the Bible seems to. And by the way, the four gospels chosen for the New Testament were heavily edited. There are other gospels that weren't included, and you have to ask why. Why? Because the Catholic Church knows they would be too tough to explain away if you want people to keep believing Jesus was god. As it is, the four gospels they picked have lots of contradictions and inconsistencies.

Now, some of the newer Christian churches have every right to believe that Jesus is God. After all, they don't have the documents the Catholic Church is keeping. But believing don't make it a fact.

Eh?

That right there is why I do not believe the Bible is something to be taken literally. It was written by man...and though it can be a great tool or whatever, it is not meant to be taken word word as literal....just my opinion :)

Anyway, because of all the hype I am super curious about Mel Gibson's movie....and as for Mel's father...I really have nothing to say to that :)

Once again I'm blown away by the eloquence of my fellow Ledgies. You've all posted some very though-provoking responses. I have no interest in seeing the film--sounds too violent for me and I'm not a big fan of biblical recreations.

Personally, I've always had problems with the literal interpretation of the Bible and have always thought we'd should look to the message and the meaning if not the actual logic behind it. I guess that's why they call it a "belief" system. One of my favorite quotes goes something like this--You have to have doubt to have faith, because without that doubt, how would you know you had faith?

Literal translation...
 

I believe in the literal translation of the Bible because it says to.

"First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God's direction." - I Peter 1:20-21 (The Message)

Carne - I am pretty sure thousands of crucifixions took place under Pilate in that area of the world (Judea). So, it is possible that Jesus was cruicified by the Jews under Pilate if he was indeed punished according to the Scripture.

You, as always :cool: , raise an interesting issue in that I think the whole Pilate washing his hands thing and the blood on the Jews thing was a perhaps due to Christianity first got its major start in Rome (it had been spreading elsewhere - but Constantine's adoption of it set it in stone so to speak). What better way to seduce the Romans into Christianity and away from Judaism at the same time than by effectively exonerating Pilate and instead blaming the Jews by saying Pilate gave the Jews the choice to let Jesus go, but they instead chose as a public group to crucify Him. That kind of makes sense to me.

Also, Jesus clearly was a Jew and His mission was not to overturn Judaism. For example, in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." He then makes a new covenant between God (which He is part of) and mankind. Thus, Jesus makes the Old Testament somehwhat irrelevant in that He is what the Old Testament was talking about and He sets forth some codes to live by (See Matthew 5:17-46.

In sum, I think there is a greater overall thruth in The Bible that cannot be denied at least to me. I mean if we all strived to be Christlike and minister to the poor and try to help our fellow man without hate, the world would be a better place. But, people do not do that. They take a literal translation of The Bible when it suits them (hating gay people) and ignore the parts that are inconvenience (animal sacrifice, eye for an eye, stoning both the adulterer and adultress, marrying your sister, etc.). :cool:

Re: Literal translation...
 

Hmm... what about the prophecies predating Peter?

Re: Re: Literal translation...
 

And Christ said He fulfilled the prophecies in Matthew 5:17-18?

Yes, it is possible. I left that door open. What I suggest can't possibly have happened is the resurrection. Nor the immaculate conception. Nor the ascendance to heaven by Jesus and, later, Mary. Sorry, didn't happen.

Quote:

What better way to seduce the Romans into Christianity and away from Judaism at the same time than by effectively exonerating Pilate and instead blaming the Jews by saying Pilate gave the Jews the choice to let Jesus go, but they instead chose as a public group to crucify Him. That kind of makes sense to me.

That is pretty much historically established. But with hindsight, it is questionable Pilate, who was considered a fairly tough character, would have abdicated this punishment to the Jews. Crucifixions, after all, were a Roman punishment. Also, the gospel would have us believe that Pilate was open to the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, the king of the Jews. A pagan Roman believing in the Messiah? A Roman actually caring that someone proclaimed himself king of the Jews? Questionable. So either Pilate saw the whole thing through or it didn't happen.

Quote:

In sum, I think there is a greater overall thruth in The Bible that cannot be denied at least to me. I mean if we all strived to be Christlike and minister to the poor and try to help our fellow man without hate, the world would be a better place.:cool:

I'm all for that, my friend.

Re: Re: Re: Literal translation...
 

Yes. My point was about the reference to the Holy Spirit. That is a Christian invention. So how could the Holy Spirit have been the bearer of all prophecies?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Literal translation...
 

Well, the Holy Trinity is the Christian invention. But the Old Testament refers to Ruah or "God's Breath," which has been analogized to the Holy Spirit. It is an interesting concept because God himself appears throughout the Old Testament in a different forms (burning bush, pillar of fire, etc.) . Yet God breathed life into Adam, etc. So, the Holy Spirit was there.

Here is an article from a website I know nothing about :laugh: that goes into this

http://servus.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/jub/JUBpizz.html

Can you tell I find all of this fascinating!!!!! :cool:

Pilate...
 

When Jesus came before Pilate, he said, "Do you know that I have the power to crucify You, and power to release You?" Jesus replied, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore, the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." - John 19: 10-11

It was all supposed to happen the way it did. Pilate was supposed to ALLOW him to be crucified.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Literal translation...
 

Frankly, I'm just a little shocked to find that the Holy Spirit is something that can be treated with a drop of Listerine.

[Oops... was that blasphemy?] :laugh:

Re: Pilate...
 

Almost like they were following a script. Yes?

Re: Pilate...
 

True, but I think God gave mankind the chance to refuse to crucify Him. Again, God is omnipotent, so He must have known man would fail - hence the new covenant in the Gospel or "Good News" as opposed to Lathspell or "Bad News" (this is a Grima Wormtoungue reference for you LOTR fans!! :cool: )

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Literal translation...
 

Lord Child - if lightening from whatever source has not struck either of us yet . . . this comment will not provoke it :laugh:

Huh?
 

Script?

How do you mean?

Life overall, is "scripted" in a figurative sense, IMO. Adam and Eve sinning and falling from grace, the Great Flood, Christ's death and resurrection....all part of the great plan. God's plan.

Like strand said, God is omnipotent, He knows everything that happened, is happening and will happen.

Not making light of the bible's importance, but one of the biggest questions I've always had... that no one has ever been able to answer for me.... is how the world became populated, when, according to the bible, God created Adam, and then Eve, who then bore two sons, Cain and Abel. And then much later, they gave birth to another son... Seth.

Now, with four men and one woman, how did the Earth become populated, if not by incest??? Even if Adam and Eve had daughters who weren't mentioned in the bible by name, it's still incestuous.

And the devoutly religious would much rather think that every single one of us is a product of incest, rather than believing the conclusion of science, that we were evolved?

In my opinion... for whatever it's worth... I believe the bible is, in many ways, like a book of parables, with it tales of wickedness and righteousness.
In the end, the moral of the story is to live your life as best you can, in order to be worthy to make your way to Heaven.

But I think some people take everything in the bible far too literally, and because of this, they cause some of the biggest problems in this world.
Their refusal to see the bible in a more abstract way, causes narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

When even the KKK can point to passages in the bible to excuse their hatred and bigotry, you know something is amiss.

Re: Huh?
 

Just teasing you a little, Chrissy. Though I don't share your faith (and I do have faith, just different) I respect your position.

Yep...
 

Yes, we have a choice whether to ask God for forgiveness and be "cleaned" of our sins, but Adam and Eve didn't give a choice to be completely without sin ala born without sin. Man is born sinful, and we choose, when we get of a certain maturity level, to either continue being sinful or ask God to cleanse us.

I'm glad we can discuss this w/o being rude and mean. :)

Hey...
 

It's all good. :D

GREAT question to ask God, JS!!!
 

Bingo, Johnny! And what is heaven but the self-satisfaction of a mind and heart at peace with the knowledge that you have lived with integrity, compassion and a sense of stewardship for the those around you and the environment?

Re: Yep...
 

Chrissy, I'm glad you mentioned original sin. Here's one of my biggest problems with Christianity. OK, so I look at my innocent little girl who has never so much as hurt a fly or even wasted a single moment to ever devise or act on anything "bad." Her little developing brain just has no room for it. What it has room for is the relentless pursuit of life, lunging for whatever catches her interest at any given moment. If she's sitting on the coach and something catches her eye across the room, she is going to throw herself off unless I catch her. What could possibly be more innocent than not even realizing that you can seriously hurt yourself in acting on your impulses brought on by that relentless pursuit of life? How can anyone possibly associate sin with anything this innocent little being ever does?