When I See You Again Appreciation Post!
 

Anyone else love this song? I have heard nothing but negative comments about it. It is so sad and haunting, I just love it! My favorite part is when you can hear Lindsey's voice very faint at the end of the song. Come on, there has to be a few people who like it...

Re: When I See You Again Appreciation Post!
 

You must be avoiding Johnny Stew's posts.:laugh:
I like it, too, though I like Seven Wonders & WTTRS more.

- Jake

You're not alone
 

I love the song.
Each "what's the matter, baby" is different and heartbreaking. And Lindsey's voice at the end just gets me all teary.
I think it's a great, sad, sad song.

From the moment I first heard it, this has been one of my very favorite Stevie songs. Her delivery is, in fact, heart wrenching. It makes me FEEL more deeply than words can show and showcases the uniqueness of what Stevie can do with her voice...that she never sings "What's the matter, baby?" the same way twice. The Lindsey bit makes the song perfect (I seem to recall Stevie saying no one else thought Lindsey should sing on it, but she insisted). My favorite of the Lindsey bit is the last line: "Again and again / Over and over".

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G:nod:

Re: Re: When I See You Again Appreciation Post!
 

Now Jake, whatever would give you the idea that I like "When I See You Again"? ;) :laugh:

Christopher, you can definitely count me as one of "When I See You Again's" biggest fans... if not the biggest.
In my totally humble opinion, it's one of Stevie's best contributions to Fleetwood Mac, and it's pretty much the heart and soul of 'Tango In The Night.'

Alas, it remains a song that people either absolutely love or absolutely hate. There doesn't seem to be a middle-ground for this one.

(By the way, I hope this thread sticks to the "appreciation" theme, and doesn't dissolve into yet another "all the reasons 'WISA' sucks" kind of thread.)

I've never been a fan of this song, but I will agree that Lindsey's vocals at the end make it. Yes, the fade out is heartbreaking!

I've always loved this song too. I don't have much to add that Johnny Stew hasn't said in past posts, or that EveryHour didn't already point out. She sounds frail, but it reflects the lyrics of the song, just as it does in I Sing For The Things or One More Big Time Rock & Roll Star.

I really like the way she sings "so she stays up nights on end, well at least there is a dream left", & of course Lindsey's parts at the end (both vocal & guitar).

But I can see how it might be an acquired taste.

i already mentioned it here a billion times, but i don't mind doing it again: IT'S A MASTERPIECE, one of stevie's all-time best.

I love this song... TITN is one of my favorite albums ever, all those songs are good. :D

I really like the song as well. I think the warbly vocals and cheesy Lindsey tag on ending is perfect. I hear so much negative about this song and I can see their point, but I think this song is really good. I love that Lindsey sings the ending, makes it even better!

After all they went through, and knowing Lindsey leaves the band...I always felt this song should have ended the album.

Re: Re: Re: When I See You Again Appreciation Post!
 

I only like it, believe it or not. Of course I found the repetition and Stevie's tone annoying at first, but I soon got over them. For me, however, "When I See You Again" is something that only the fans can truly love. It doesn't show any "classic" songwriting potential in it like "Landslide" does; it's mostly all about Stevie's performance and whether it will get to you or not. And of course it benefits from its position on Tango In The Night; as a mainly acoustic track amidst songs that use those "cold" '80s production values. Of course Stevie wanted it as the album closer. It just would have emphasized the drama once more. ;)

I thought it was better to put "You And I Part Two" as the last song anyway. Instead of going out with this dramatic fade-out, Lindsey puts these bitter lyrics together with this childish backing track. It's as if he doesn't care for the big "separation" at all. Definitely a more vague, and I dare say more interesting, way to close the album.

I LOVE this song too (as does my mom!). She sounds so tragically vunerable and frail......the vocals and the song as a whole are heart-wrenching, but beautiful. I also love "Seven Wonders" and especially "Welcome to the Room....Sara", since I know what it's about and it hits close to home...and the imagery is great. I really don't get why people dis Stevie's contributions to TITN, IMO I think they're all great (of course, to each their own :) )

:wavey: adam:wavey:

I think the song had a lot of unrealised potential. I think it says a lot about how Stevie and Lindsey's relationship was going at that point considering that he'd let something so half assed go on the official album with his name in the production credits.

Why he wouldn't have tried to get a better vocal performance or work on some lyrics with Stevie is beyond me. In my opinion, he let her make a complete ass out of herself on that one because he just didn't give a ****. It's one of the most hilariously bad vocal performances I've ever heard, and the lyrics don't help matters one bit. The "finished product" doesn't sound any better than a rough demo.

However, I will say that shoddy production aside, the actual music (not vocals, production, or arrangement) that's presented is really good. I think the acoustic guitar part is subtle and beautiful, and I love the idea of Lindsey singing back to her at the end. Even though it sounds like a touching way to end the song I doubt there was any reasoning for that besides Stevie not having any more lyrics.

My main problems with the tune are

-The chorus, calling it weak or even annoying is an understatement
-Stevie's vocals, she could have at least coughed out the wads of coke drip on the back of her throat before she cut it
-The lyrics, they're just not well thought out and are actually kind of amatuerish. Yeah they're honest, but I don't care. She could have done much better.
-The total lack of the textural, lush Mac backing vocals throughout the track. It sounds empty.
-The keyboard part sucks. How about some piano, Chris?
-I HATE those shakers!

My final statement -- it could have been a great song and a great album closer, but Lindsey obviously had serious ego problems at the time that prevented it from happening.

C'mon, tell us how you really feel.;)

I actually love the rasp she gives us on this song, I sing for the things, the second time, et cetera.

I think it's a beautiful song...the "what's a matta baby" does grate on my nerves a bit...but for the most part it is a beautiful song filled with a lot of raw emotion.

Lyrically, yeah...it's not the best Stevie has ever written either, but again, I think she wasn't going for 'drama or effect'...she wasn't going to paint a pretty picture of heartache (like she did with Welcome To The Room...Sara which I LOVE) this was real honest heartbreak and conflict she was dealing with at this time...coked up or not.

Re: When I See You Again Appreciation Post!
 

i like it. it's a snapshot in time when stevie was totally wasted and shortly before lindsey departed. I read somewhere that stevie asked lindsey to sing the last part along with her, then flicked a switch or something when he wasn't around to make it look like he just sang the last part himself, which is how it comes out in the final product. there wasn't much lindsey could do with stevie's voice in her condition, as she only showed up about ten days during the "tango in the night" project and the album had to go out soon.

With the exception of "Isn't It Midnight," "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To the Room...Sara" have to be my favorite two songs off of Tango In the Night. I don't understand the mass group bashings either one of these songs receive, they're incredible in my opinion. :nod:

I love When Will I See you Again but I do have to agree, it's one of those songs only a devoted fan can love and appreciate...I also love the demo quality of the song, it feeds into the fraility of the music and lyrics...

Ok EricBliss. If your post was intended as a bait for a Lindseyhead, you’ve caught one:

I realize why some people have been offering a different perspective on Stevie’s contributions to TITN recently; they’re tired of the seemingly endless bashing of “WISYA” and “WTTR…S” that has been going on for quite a while. It has been suggested that the main blame should not be poured on Stevie anymore, that Lindsey should be its main target. While I understand that he should receive his part of it too, especially since he’s one of those who are responsible of the overall sound, it still feels too blunt to me when someone says something like the following:
That line especially suggests that he’s the only one responsible of how the track turned out. I don’t think that’s the case and I will explain it right now.
Very few of Stevie’s demos are altered in the area of lyrics or even vocal performance when they go through the various stages of production. I’m sure that possibility is very rarely considered at all; the band wouldn’t choose a Stevie demo if it lacked something particular in the first place. I think she wouldn’t even let any alteration of that kind happen. Whenever there are changes, they are in the sphere of the overall arrangement.

So you seriously think that Stevie has no say in the final outcome of the track? That Buckingham can ignore her wishes and put a song like “WISYA” on the album no matter what she says? I’d like to see some statements or quotes backing that up. No, I can’t prove the opposite myself but I’d still say that claiming Lindsey having a “complete dominance” over the sound of a particular track is pushing some.

If you have problems with the tone colours and Stevie’s voice, fine. They don’t take me away from the songwriting a bit though. It’s not like LB drowned the track in distortion or anything.

In the end, the main blame on the success/failure of a particular track should be put on the songwriter. Because I don’t believe that Stevie has ever been inactive in deciding of the content of her songs. Not even when recording Fleetwood Mac albums.

But no one’s objective here. It’s who we prefer that we’re always speaking for. It’s always easy to ignore the contrary statements. Likewise it’s always easy to discuss someone’s actions to the point where he/she doesn’t seem like a human being anymore.

I like WISYA despite those repititive baby lines.

Interestingly, Stevie said she "tricked" LB into singing solo at the end by telling him they were recording his voice for harmony - she then tool herself out of the mix. She did the same thing for Macy Gray on "Bombay Sapphires" when Macy said "I don't [know how to] sing harmony."

Oh that clever and trixie Stevie :laugh:

With a voice like that, Billie Holiday is the only person Macy *could* sing harmony with, and even then, it's kinda iffy. :nod:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

...............
 

i absolutely love this song it's one of my favs, it just reeks of heartache :distress:

not that other peoples pain makes me happy mind you!! :)

~~~~kezzie~~~~

Re: Re: Re: When I See You Again Appreciation Post!
 

Do you know what was the combination that made me laugh the most today? It started with this statement from Johnny:

And then I read EricBliss's post. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

BTW, I'm in agreement with his comments, but I'm not posting here anymore because this is an appreciation thread, right? We bashers aren't welcome? ;)



Song of the moment - Say You Will

I don't get it, if that is true, does that mean right before the record went to print, she erased her vocals?

Also, I don't know any music terms, so when you say "harmony", what do you mean? What would be a Fleetwood Mac example of harmony in a song?

Harmony is when two people sing together in the same key. Many different types exist, but here she is talking about how she sings the main melody and someone singing a little higher or lower than she is singing. A good example of this is the chorus in "Dreams" - where you have LB and CM singing the main parts and Stevie is singing what sounds like at least two higher (oh her voice in those days could soar!! :cool: ) and perhaps one lower part. The result is a stunning sound of three people singing at least six parts.

Harmony can also be people singing parts of a song in the same key but at slightly different times. The best example of this is the chorus of "Little Lies" the "tell me lies" and then "can't disguise."

I know this may not make sense reading about it. I suggest you find someone who plays the piano or guitar and have them show you if you do not understand.

I actually really like Caroline, but WISYA is still better. And you are right, people should also become aware that Lindsey is not a saint. I know most people like his songs on tusk on this board, but I think they are the pits and not good at all (other then a couple) to these ears at least.

Interesting. I don't completely understand, but do you mean that it is like different voices blending together to form one?

Given the fact that you winked, Christian, I get the feeling that you didn't really feel like you weren't welcome to post in the thread. :) At least I hope you didn't feel that way. Certainly everyone's always welcome to post their opinions regarding any topic in any thread, but since this was meant as an appreciation thread, it would have been nice if it had remained that way.
The song sure gets bashed enough everywhere else on this board, it wouldn't have hurt for there to have been one thread where people could just discuss what they like (or love) about it.

Ah well.I'm not sure of Eric's motivations, but I know... and he'd be the first one to admit this... that he's not really a major fan of Stevie's work, so I don't think it was his intention to divert blame towards Lindsey, in order to defend Stevie. After all, Stevie definitely didn't escape his criticism here either! :laugh:
Maybe he was just playing Devil's Advocate.In the past, Stevie has said that she didn't have as much control over the outcome of her songs as she would have liked to have had, within Fleetwood Mac. I think she used the term "hi-jacked" once, in describing how she sometimes felt her songs were no longer in her hands.
But that really was "back in the day," when I think she had fears that Lindsey might try to sabotage her songs out of anger or spite.

These days she has said that she implicitly trusts Lindsey to not do something to one of her songs that she would absolutely hate. And she has said that if there happens to be something she doesn't like, she knows she can go to him about it, and that they'll work together to make it so that they're both happy with it. :)

(The rest of this isn't directed at Gaius. Just some of my thoughts....)

In my opinion (as if people don't already know I feel this way), there isn't any "blame" to be placed regarding the outcome of "When I See You Again," because I think the track is aces just the way it is.
It's not for everyone, and it never will be (even though I still feel that the song can touch the listener, if they let it)... but I think it's simply perfect.

In my opinion, the song conveys what the artist (both Stevie as the songwriter, and Fleetwood Mac as a whole) wanted it to, and that's why it's on the album.
They had other tracks to choose from... "Juliet," "Joan Of Arc," and "What Has Rock And Roll Done For You," for example... but they went with this one. I assume this means they liked the song and the texture it provides alongside the other tracks. Forgive me if that sounds naive, or like some "tired excuse." :)

No film, painting, book, poem, or song is ever going to appeal to every single person out there... but I imagine every artist's hope is that their work will elicit some kind of emotion in people, good or bad.
When a work of art is met with indifference, that's when the artist should really worry.

Love it or hate, no one can deny that we sure do talk about "When I See You Again" more than any one Fleetwood Mac song you can name!

I love this song-it's one of my favorites, especially the ending-it's just haunting..

Yes. Here is a better explanation.

http://wv.essortment.com/musicandtheory_rkxl.htm

Yep. After all, one can’t possibly like the most popular ones because they only appeal to the braindead masses. #1 rule of The Rolling Stone school of rock criticism.

Ah yes. I remember what you wrote on the subject earlier in another thread:

If this is a feminist statement of sorts then I do sympathize with the view. However, it all depends on what you listen to in music. So you’re pleased with several Stevie demos, including those that are barebones and have her voice with the usual Nicksian chords? Fine. It’s not like I feel totally unmoved by those. But I’m personally not satisfied with that approach. If I was handed out an album full of that stuff I couldn’t bare listening to them straight through. I always pay attention to the way the overall track sounds the most and that’s why I’m bound to give more credit to Lindsey than to Stevie. It’s he who puts the diversity in and that’s one of the main attractions to me in music. He doesn’t, however, put in the Nicksian personality; that’s what Stevie does. I believe that without Stevie’s voice and lyrics Lindsey wouldn’t be able to create such a magnificent arrangement. There has to be something to be built on anyway. I will never give Lindsey the full credit on any success a particular Nickssong might have. It’s 50/50 and it will always be so for me.

Sharon, shouldn’t you be doing something else anyway? Like reading my PM, for instance. ;)

I’m not going to guess his motivations either. Of course, if you look at the “Favourite FM song” thread, there are two Nicks songs in his list and nothing by Buckingham. Not to mention that he’s clearly criticized Lindsey in some aspects before. But never mind. I apologize Eric if what I’m writing seems rude. I definitely thought this was rude too:

If that was supposed to be humorous, I’m not laughing. I know the reputation of the 1987 Buckingham isn’t the best possible among the FM fan community, but I still think that if that quote is a serious statement then it just can’t go unanswered. If it was intended to generate some fuss, it sure did succeed. Thanks to my Finnish stubbornness.

Yes, that’s probably what the dedication on the inner sleeve of Bella Donna, “to Jimmy… for giving me back my music”, was referring to. I’m not going to comment on particular songs where this “hi-jacking” might have happened. I just think it didn’t happen with “When I See You Again” at all. The demo hasn’t been changed in any significant way. The song is therefore an anomaly on a Fleetwood Mac album. It gains something because of this fact; that they had guts to give us something so stripped down at a time when FM were known of their studio polish. Give me another one of this type with the same old Nickschords and it’s on the same level as Stevie’s recent stripped-down demos for me.

In which case I’m not surprised they picked “WISYA”. ;)

But I’m sorry if I did violate the “rules of the thread” and started to write some negative things into it.

Cue the Pretenders...

...it's a thin linnnnnne, between love & hate


Kind of like Bob Dylan...not a better person to harmonize with him than Tom Petty, eh? :shrug:


My two-cents:

I don't necessarily LIKE "WISYA", but I don't DISLIKE it, either. Just don't ask me what I think of "WTTR...S", you won't like my answer. And, in saying that; then, DEFINITELY avoid asking me about "The Second Time" from Behind The Mask

The one redeeming aspect of WISYA: The nylon-string solo at the end. The song itself is mediocre at best.

The only "argument" I have with that statement, is that... out of about 113 Nicks-penned songs that have been officially released with Fleetwood Mac, on a solo album, or on a soundtrack or b-side, Lindsey only has production credit on 21 of those (10 of those being the 'SYW' tracks, and not counting "Seven Wonders," which Stevie only added some lyrics to). Of course, we should probably credit him for at least arranging the 'Buckingham Nicks' tracks, as well as "Rhiannon" and "Landslide," and I'm sure he had more than just a little input on the 'Rumours' tracks (despite the lack of a production credit)... but Lindsey is definitely not the "only one who knows what to do with Stevie's songs," as is often implied.

Which has always been why I feel it's important that Lindsey's credit for the appeal of Stevie's songs, doesn't get too out of proportion with the actual amount of songs he's had a hand in producing.
Keith Olsen, Richard Dashut, Ken Caillat, Jimmy Iovine (my favorite of anyone who's produced Stevie's music), Rick Nowels, Mike Campbell, John Shanks, and others, have definitely added wonderful touches to many of Stevie's songs over the years... though I'm most definitely not belittling Lindsey's contributions.

But in my opinion... regarding Stevie, or any songwriter... I'm always going to give 70/30 credit, with the songwriter first, and the producer second, as the producer is only really embellishing what's already there (in my opinion).I hadn't noticed his post in that thread. I'd definitely be interested in reading which songs of Stevie's he picked, as I know when he and I have chatted, Christine and Bob Welch are his favorites, by far, and I've gotten the feeling that he has only a moderate interest in Stevie or Lindsey (not that there's anything wrong with that).


At any rate, I'm still chuckling over the fact that, nearly 17 years after its release, we're still having multi-page debates about "When I See You Again." :)

I agree, and IMO some folks rely too much on that Christine quote about Lindsey fixing Dreams.

- Jake

You mean more than certain folks have accepted as gospel Stevie's contention that she sneaked to the mixing board to lower her vocal and leave Lindsey's at the end of WISYA? Frankly, I don't see how anyone could believe that tall tale, considering the process of mixing and mastering a recording. Yes, I believe she may have been the one who talked Lindsey into doing that particular vocal, but methinks the lady doth exaggerate.

By the way, I listened to the song yesterday, and I concluded that it is actually among the best of Stevie's mediocre songs from that 1985-1994 period. Had she taken more care with the lyrics, it would have been a decent song.

That, my friend, is a high compliment coming from you :laugh: :cool: