Has Stevie's songwriting gone downhill?
 

A few people on the Rumours board were saying that they thought that Stevie hasn't written a decent song (bar Gyspy) since Bella Donna and any good tunes that she has released since then (ie Sorcerer, If You Ever Did Believe etc, etc) actually originated from the 1970s anyway.
There was also talk of Stevie only being as good as her producers, and not proving herself outside of what Lindsey does for her.

I personally love a good many records Stevie has written over the years that don't have their roots in the 1970s (Rooms On Fire, Blue Denim, Illume to name a few), and many of which I actually consider to be among her best.

I'm also fed up with Lindsey getting all the credit for Stevie's best songs. I've heard the demo for Sara and that was genius before Lindsey put his magic touch on it.

Can't we give Stevie some credit for being an amazing songwriter at long last?
What do you guys think?

I think Stevie has written some great songs since the Rumours era. Rooms On Fire, Blue Denim, Juliet, Space Needle, Freedom and Trouble In Shangri La are, IMO great songs. In some cases, I think Stevie's various producers actually hindered the performance. Case in point: Smile At You. Exception to this rule: Jimmy Iovine. I think he was an excellent fit with Stevie's work. With two strong individuals, however, there was bound to be a breaking point.

I don't think Stevie's songwriting has gone downhill at all. I do think that in the eighties she put out a lot of *bad* stuff and in the nineties she put out the noise pollution that is Street Angel, but she's recovered very well in recent years. I mean, c'mon, the lyrics to the song TISL are among the BEST she has ever written; they're astounding. This sin't to say she hasn't put out some clunkers; she has and Not Make Believe can attest to that. But the good far outweigh the bad. I think it's ludicrous to say that she hasn't written anything great since '81. If a song like Doing the Best That I Can or Sable On Blonde came out in the seventies, the same people who say they don't think those songs are great would be saying they ARE great.

I suppose it's going to be hard to find objectivity on this board :) but I don't think Stevie's writing has ever gone downhill.

The general consensus is that she had bad phases in her career but even during those times, I think there have always been great songs. And she's been writing consistently great tunes ever since Street Angel (Twisted, Sweet Girl, TISL album etc...).

Blue Denim, Fall From Grace, Everybody Finds Out, ect. DETAILS! If anything, she's gotten better. :cool:

I think Stevie's songwriting has "matured" over the years. I was blown away by some of the lyrics on TISL and I personally liked all of the new material on SYW. Sure, she's written some clunkers in her day, but what songwriter hasn't? She's prolific and when you write that many songs, there are bound to be some bad ones in the bunch. And isn't bad subjective? There are songs that I adore that I'm sure some of you Mac/Stevie fans out there hate, and some that I hate that you love.

AMEN!!!

I'm tired of people saying this song or that song is awful, terrible, sucks, etc., when it's really that they just don't care for it. It can actually be hurtful when Stevie means as much as she does to some of us. Whether a song moves you or not, she has clearly poured her heart into each and every one of them. I personally am a fan of all of those supposed "clunkers" (The Nightmare has grown to be one of my favorite songs on Rock A Little). I feel that most of the time with Stevie, you either 'get it' or you don't. Much of her music is not commercial or widely appealing, and no one should wish it was so. As a sidebar, I know that in general (not pertaining to Stevie songs) there are a lot of songs that I personally don't think are really GREAT songs, but it doesn't mean ya can't like them! (Admit it, you know what I mean!)
As far as her talent...most of her completely solo demos are chill-inducing, and I think that's all that needs to be said.

This is definitely a topic that causes a lot of debate!
Personally, I tend to prefer her current work.

Don't get me wrong, there's no denying the power of "Landslide," "Silver Springs," et al., but I've always been more interested in the now as opposed to the then.
I also tend to look more at Stevie's entire body of work, as opposed to an album-by-album basis.

I've enjoyed the growth and maturity in her lyrics over the years. And while some of the earlier songs might be a bit more relatable for the masses, there's an added depth in her recent material that really catches my fancy.

She's always written from the heart... she's always written very confessionally... and she's always written in a very unique way.
And she continues to do so to this day. :)

I agree wholeheartedly.

As I've pointed out in the past, Stevie has released over 130 songs throughout her career, and truly only about a half-dozen of those can be considered out & out "stinkers" (though even then, it's a matter of opinion)... and that is not a bad batting-average at all!

I agree. Jimmy Iovine was the perfect producer for Stevie. Too bad they had to get romantically involved and ruined such a great partnership. I also agree that Stevie has written some really great stuff post-Rumours, I happen to love the Phoenix Four as well as her newly written stuff on TISL-- "Fall From Grace" is just utter greatness. Another testament to Stevie's songwriting ability is that her demos, (before Lindsey gets his hands on them), are usually really good. Lindsey is definitely a wizard in the studio but Stevie's skeletal material is really good so he usually already has a good melody to work with. Lindsey being the anal retentive master of embellishments that he is, delivers the finished product but Stevie comes up with the lyrics and basic song structure. Sometimes I think Lindsey is given too much credit for Stevie's songwriting greatness, it's irritating.

Re: Has Stevie's songwriting gone downhill?
 

I think Stevie is still a really good songwriter who has always had this knack for wrapping her vocal style so intriguingly around her free-form lyrics. "Illume" is a new example of that art, & it's as pleasurable as her older material. I love her work on her "Street Angel" album because it seems blessedly devoid of that showoffy quality that marred some of her earlier solo albums. The "Street Angel" material just seems as if all pretense is dropped & she's there, older & more resigned to her advancing age (& all artists tackle that theme).

Quote:

I'm also fed up with Lindsey getting all the credit for Stevie's best songs. I've heard the demo for Sara and that was genius before Lindsey put his magic touch on it.

Her demo of "Sara"? The only demo of "Sara" I've ever heard is one where she's playing the piano -- possibly to a click track -- & singing. I wouldn't exactly call it a work of genius, but it certainly is heartfelt & breezily melodic. A lot of people keep calling the "cleaning lady" recording a demo, but it is not. It is Fleetwood Mac. Anyone can plainly hear Mick's brushes, John's bass, Stevie's tack piano & Lindsey's layers of acoustic guitar all over it -- a bunch of the same instrumental & vocal tracks, in fact, that were ultimately included on the album cut. It is "Sara" in the making at the Village Recorder, Studio D, & it's certainly a Buckingham production, for better or worse.

Bottom line: In my opinion, Stevie's still a really good songwriter. She's no Elvis Costello, but she never was -- then again, how many people are?

But wasn't Jimmy really just a case of mostly invisible production? He filled the room with session players who had the savvy to blend smoothly with one another -- guys like Russ Kunkel, Bob Glaub, David Adelstein, Jeff Porcaro -- & basically just let them all record live. Jimmy's approach was far more translucent, you might say, in the studio with Stevie than Lindsey's opacity, which sometimes seemed self-conscious but which would frequently build magnificent castles of sound seemingly out of thin air, as one review put it. When it came to producing Stevie, Lindsey & Jimmy just had two entirely different approaches. I think Stevie benefited from both at various times: on some occasions she required a very invasive hand to generate musical ideas into a track, & at other times, you could just stand her in front of a mic, count in, & let her & the band take off.

Re: Re: Has Stevie's songwriting gone downhill?
 

What I wouldn't give to hear Brilliant Mistake live sometime...sigh. On the other hand, Pump It up is no literary masterpiece.

So many great songs have been released since Bella Donna, particularly the masterpiece that is TWH album.

- Jake

Amen, my friend! Having heard a lot of Stevie's raw demos, you get a real idea of how much Lindsey brought to the table, so to speak, and while I will not say that he hasn't added anything to her music, it's not like he's the end all and be all who made Stevie great either.

Another thing to keep in mind re: Stevie's songwriting consistency:

In the 1970s, with Fleetwood Mac, she only released a few songs every couple of years. The quality was consistently VERY high because only her best songs made the albums.

In the 1980s, however, her output soared: She was releasing full solo albums every two years (or so), and also recording with the Mac. So of course her "batting average" went down a little.

That said, I think her songwriting DID go downhill in the late 80s/early 90s. That was largely because she didn't seem to trust herself anymore: she was relying on co-writers more than ever. Think about it: Hardly any of the songs on OSOTM, SA or BTM were solely written by Stevie. But ever since that talk with Tom Petty in 1995, when he told her he wouldn't help her write, she seems to have regained her confidence and is writing on her own again. And IMO, some of the stuff she's writing now ranks with her best (Thrown Down, TISL, SYW, Illume, Love Changes).

Ok, I’ll bite. I’m one of those people who think that she has lost at least some of her songwriting skills. A lot of this is going to be just cut-and-paste of the rant I wrote on the Rumours board under the “Stevie on the Madonna/Britney MTV kiss” thread. I hope none of you will take this personally or anything. Remember, a person reacts with his/her emotional centers first and then afterwards tries to find a rational explanation to his/her actions. ;)

I’m speaking as a fan too, but also as a person who can not ignore what he hears.

What I was saying on the Rumours board is pretty much the following:

- I find Stevie’s demos of the ‘70s very moving and the same goes to the officially released versions of them. The only demos she did afterwards that I like are the more arranged ones.

- I think Stevie lost some of her songwriting inspiration after The Wild Heart. I love pretty much all of her work on that album and prior to that.

And then, the major point:

“What she writes these days and has written since the early ‘80s can be described as “the Nicksian drone”. And no, this doesn’t mean songs about men. That’s what her current demos sound like to me, unless they’re more arranged by other people. This means that she’s still milking those same old three chords to what it’s worth, just like she did during the ‘70s. However, this time there just isn’t that freshness anymore. If you write in a certain mode for a long time, you’re bound to run out of certain ideas, or at least your new efforts won’t be as memorable as the earlier ones. That’s what I think has happened to Stevie. Her way of writing hasn’t changed. She’s stated something like the following: all of her songs are extensions of previous ones and seem to capture only certain moods. I agree with that 100%.
So, why do I think that a lot of her songs on SYW are nearly as great as her best work? Simply because of Lindsey. If you look at what makes a song successful, it’s not the notes. The thing that matters the most is what chords are those notes against. Take something like the Beatles’ “Across The Universe”. The whole thing has a two or three note melody. If it didn’t have those rich chords and that tone colour backing it up, then no one would speak of it as a classic. Stevie writes usually with very basic chords. What a producer/arranger can do here is to make those chords richer. Lindsey’s the best for that job, but I do like the work that Jimmy Iovine, Rupert Hine and John Shanks did. They were trying to do the same thing that Lindsey did and while they didn’t succeed, they did come close, especially Iovine.”

- I do like a couple of her recent demos too. “Space Needle” and “Have No Heart”, but I believe those are arranged by other people.

- If someone was to officially release an album with Stevie’s demos on it with no additional production/arrangement work, I think it would flop. An interesting experiment it would be though. She needs help in many things that are purely musical or aural. I’m sure all of you can accept that.

“I wouldn’t put most of the credit on the producers’ shoulders either. I think fifty-fifty would be just right in this case. They can always hear in Stevie’s songs what someone untrained can not. A certain lyrical imagery can create a great arrangement in a producer’s head. I don’t think she’s untalented these days in songwriting, but I do think that certain people love those current demos because it’s Stevie singing them and she hasn’t changed her style.”

And then there’s another thing I’d like to add. I put Stevie myself in a special category called “the atmospheric artists”. Other artists in that category include Bob Dylan and Peter Hammill (if anyone cares). What I mean by this is that these artists write songs that have to be listened to as the writer performs them. It’s the whole package that counts, the overall arrangement, the chords of the song itself and the voice. Oh those voices. Some of the most magnificent in all music. However, take one of these elements away and a lot of the magic disappears. I’m not saying that the musical and lyrical values disappears though. I may think that Bob Dylan’s versions of his own songs are always the definitive ones (yes, even “All Along The Watchtower”), but I certainly can appreciate a good Dylan cover when I hear one. He transcends the borders of being “an atmospheric artist” and a lot of his songs (he has a noticeable amount of bad stuff too) can be taken at face value, without that voice and the performance. Peter Hammill will probably never transcend those borders, and I’m sure he doesn’t want to, because that would mean commercial success and a loss of his cult status.

So, Stevie is in between Dylan and Hammill. I think a lot of those ‘70s songs can be enjoyed at face value. There are plenty of covers of these. But when I go to Nicksfix and look at that list of cover songs, there’s pretty much none of her post-‘70s songs. That I think is the only objective meter of one’s songwriting skills. If other people are not interested in your work, then there’s something wrong.

And no, I’m not discussing her lyrics here, because I’m not much of a lyrics person myself. But I do think that she’s been consistent in that area. The ‘70s lyrics may move me more, but then there’s stuff like “Illume” which is pretty much the only song about 9-11 that I can honestly say has good lyrics. And what you can always rely upon is the voice. It’s never let me down, not even during RAL or TITN, which I think was the worst period for it. I’m not as hardcore as you people are (that’s not even possible in Finland, no one here listens to Stevie or the Rumours era Mac) but for me her recent writing just doesn’t cut it when you’re speaking of pure musical terms. For a lot of you it obviously works. But I do think that it’s mainly because she hasn’t changed her style, her voice is still there and so are those lyrics. She quite understandably refers to her current writing as poems. That’s what it is to me too, nothing much more.

I shall repeat myself once again and say that none of us can be truly objective in this matter. :)

This isn't directed at any one in particular, but I often wonder why so many people make so much out of the fact that many of Stevie's '80s and '90s songs were co-written.

Stevie is still the one writing the lyrics... it's just that someone else has written the music track.

No one makes a big deal of the fact that Richard Dashut co-wrote eight of the songs on Lindsey's 'Out Of The Cradle,' as well as "Book of Love, "Empire State," "Oh Diane," and "Family Man."

"I Want You," "What's The World Coming To," and "Come," were also co-written with other songwriters.

Several of Christine's songs over the years have been co-written as well... especially after she met Eddy Quintela.
And Lindsey and Christine are musicians.

Stevie's never claimed to be a musician, and has been very honest in regards to her relatively minor skills on the piano or the guitar.

I'm not trying to start a Stevie vs. ____ thing... I'm just wondering why it's a big deal that Stevie sometimes co-writes her material, and why that's often cited as a sign her talents had/have diminished, etc.

Actually, ALL of Christine's songs have been co-written since Mirage except for "Only Over You", "The Smile I Live For", "Everywhere" and "Behind The Mask". :)

Refresh my memory, but didn't Mick use a co-writer for the hauntingly beautiful "These Strange Times"?:laugh:

- Jake

And that, IMO, is her best song :D BTM rocks!

Forgive me, but how can some of you even feel any emotion or get any pleasure from music when you analyze it to freakin' death?!:( I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't 'get it' at all.:shrug:

Very well put.

It all has to start with Stevie's incredible CONCEPTS before there can be anything to be built on!

Well, I think for me it just shows that she had lost some confidence in her ability to write songs on her own. In the 70s, she wrote all her songs by herself. As the 1980s wore on, she began to rely increasingly on outside collaborators _ as, probably not coincidentally, her substance abuse and psychological problems worsened.
She herself describes the talk with Tom Petty _ where he told her to write on her own _ as an epiphany. He saw it as a self-confidence issue: You don't need me or anyone else; just get out there and write your own songs again. And apparently, that resonated with her.

Also, I tend to prefer the songs Stevie writes by herself to the ones she co-writes. They seem more honest and closer to her heart _ and that translates into a more compelling performance, which I guess makes sense. Others may disagree _ actually, I'd be interested in hearing from someone who does _ but can a single one of her co-written songs compare to "Gypsy," "Sara" or "Silver Springs"?

I'm not saying that co-writing, in itself, is a bad thing. Just that in Stevie's case, I think she used it as a crutch when her own creative juices weren't flowing too freely.

Yeah, and that's when everything's usually fine. When that voice sings those lyrics and everything is musically solid, then I'm pleased.

That’s right. I haven’t seen a single article where even Lindsey himself would speak about Richard’s “significant input” into writing a particular song. It would be very strange to me if I was to find out that something so personal as “Street Of Dreams” has lyrical or even musical input from Mr. Dashut. Of course if it has, then I owe the man an apology.
Again, I can’t recall a single article where Lindsey would discuss his songwriting collaboration with Richard. This is why I tend to think that Richard really didn’t contribute anything to those songs that could be put down on paper as notes. I think he helped to shape the overall sound of the songs to such an extent that Lindsey decided to give him a writing credit along with a production credit. I’m sure LB felt Richard’s contributions were as significant as his own. But there’s no certainty about this. I hope that Richard’s Q&A in the upcoming future will answer some of these questions.

I’m not making fun of people because they resort to other people for inspiration. I’m sure you can see that from the “songwriting bible” I wrote yesterday. ;) Writing with other people has worked admirably well for each songwriter of the Rumours line-up. It can open you up to other areas and certain ideas you weren’t aware of. It can expand your knowledge a lot.

If there’s a particular song where I think a co-writer has definitely provided the main inspiration to, it’s “Come”. Neale Heywood came up with that great riff, the musical meat of the song. Lindsey shaped it into the monster (positive or negative, you decide) it turned out to be. Without Neale’s riff the song wouldn’t be as successful as it is.

I’m sure you’re not trying to insult me or anything like that. I can separate the enjoyment of music from analysing it (hell, “Beautiful Child” and “Gypsy” always make me cry and “EFO” always makes me as excited as my cat when he gets his meal), and I do not usually analyse music when I’m listening to it (only when it’s something I’ve listened to A LOT). I do that afterwards, by comparing other people’s opinions on it to those that are my own. I do not feel the necessity to write the usual “I love this song, bye” or “I hate this song, goodbye” posts. I am here to share my thoughts with different people and I’m here to compare my opinions with theirs. If you don’t like this long-winded dross, you can always skip my posts when you see my screen name. Basically I think that no one here can reach objectivity on this subject, but you can always compare your thoughts with other people’s thoughts and use them to expand your knowledge. If you learn to know what someone else thinks and if you learn to understand why he/she thinks so, you can get closer to objectivity. And then you’ll get closer to heaven, believe you me. :)

I agree. However, one shouldn’t forget that you may sometimes have to dismantle some of the foundations to get to the point where the song is more accessible for a casual listener. Ken Caillat speaks in his Q&A of Stevie’s original “Sara” demo, how it was 12 minutes long and had to be seriously cut down. A lot of his work (if not all) are accessible to you big fans, but I’m quite sure very little of the usual music listeners could appreciate those late period demos.
I agree. Whether someone feels it’s honest or not is irrelevant to me. It feels honest to me and that’s the only thing that matters in this world, damnit! ;) But what I basically tried to say was that her demos post-‘70s don’t do it to me. They are heartfelt, but they just feel like poems to me and that’s the biggest problem. I may rationalize a lot, but it all comes back to the “first, initial feeling”, which I pretty much said yesterday. That’s the only thing that matters. But I’m sure no Nickshead lost his/her will to sleep after reading this crazy rambling. ;)

In my opinion Stevie's music has not gone downhill at all.

After all this analysis, the one thing we have failed to mention is the song's worth is in what we as individuals take away from it, that's the beauty of art and music. Me personally, well I have consistently enjoyed and been moved by Stevie's work (although I agree her finest songs are generally the one's she has sole credit for). So I have never felt she has lost her "muse" or whatever you folks would like to call it.

Others will have a different take on it. Rock A Little, for example, is probably my least favourite of Stevie's solo albums, but my friend insists it's her best. Go figure! I also can't understand the hostility towards Street Angel although it's not her finest hour. It's all personal taste.

But I definitely think Lindsey gets too much credit. If the raw materials for him to work with weren't any good to begin with, it wouldn't matter how much care or attention or "magic" he worked into the song.

I'd like to agree with this theoretically, but I can't. I think that you can take a dull song & build a very interesting track out of it: inventive, cerebral or emotional, intricately textured ear candy with the perfect vocal take on it. Think of "Trouble" or "Straight Back" or even "Brown Eyes." Conversely, you can take a great song & plaster the wrong arrangement & instrumentation all over it, like "Smile at You" on the new album, which winds up losing the qualities you originally responded to without gaining alternative qualities.

Form & content aren't always as insoluble as theorists tell us they are. You can separate the distinct appeal of the form of the song versus the way it has been conceptualized & built into a track.

I know what you are saying David, but, to use your example, not everyone prefers the old version of Smile At You. It's all a matter of personal response. We all take different things from music.

Listening to the demos of my favourite Stevie songs, in my own opinion many of them were great to begin with. And while I agree that you can ruin a good song with bad production, I personally think Lindsey had pretty good material to work on (as did Jimmy Iovine) with many of Stevie's songs. I'm just saying he doesn't deserve so much of the credit that people shower on him.

To use a crass saying (sorry) "you can't polish a turd!"
:D

One person's opinion. I hold the opposite one.

NMB is a "lost gem" (however, only in its final form on the ltd edition SYW) as far as I'm concerned.


I'm of the ilk that hold the opinion that Lindsey, Jimmy, & Heartbreaker Mike Campbell are the only folks to be able to take Stevie's "raw material" and mold into something listenable.

DOROTHY HAMMILL?

Just to be controversial (hehe), it could be said that Lindsey's best music comes when he is working with Stevie...

Can we give Stevie some credit, please?

Oh, I’m well aware of that, but I thought the people contributing to this thread were aware of it anyway.

I understand that you are a big fan and you’re pleased with her current work just as much as with her “classic” one. However, what I was basically trying to say was that one should occasionally step outside “the fan zone” and look at the world like an observer. I presented things that I consider important, the fact that there are very little covers of Stevie’s post-‘70s work can’t be ignored. When I listen to her recent demos, I don’t just go “oh, that’s boring”. I also think if someone was to put out an album of this stuff, would it be successful? I think not. I do not know how large a hardcore fan base Stevie has in the United States, but I suppose it’s not any more than a couple dozen thousand people. These people would buy the demo album, but the other people, the hundreds of thousands that bought TISL, would not. There can be a big difference between what a casual listener wants and what an artist does. I don’t think Stevie herself understands what the public wants, so she wisely gives her work to a producer.

I’m not going to dispute this. I said earlier that I would give fifty percent of the credit to Lindsey and fifty percent to Stevie (sorry Mick and John, but this is about songwriting). I certainly don’t believe that these songs with their fancy arrangements would sound as good if it was not Stevie singing them. If it wasn’t Stevie singing them, I’m sure Lindsey couldn’t come up with as majestic an arrangement. If it wasn’t for those lyrics, Lindsey wouldn’t add certain things he does. He’s known this woman for a long time and definitely knows what he can do with her songs. And again, Stevie seems to go into certain areas vocally only when she’s singing on a song that Lindsey has arranged. They both need each other in this respect, and the rest can be discussed on the Buckinghamnicks.net message board. ;)

Right you are. However, with Stevie’s recent work I rarely can do that. It could and still can be done with her ‘70s songs but when you take the lyrics and vocals out of a recent Nicks demo, what do we have? A very generic (thanks Lindsey) set of chords that anyone with a little musical training could come up with. However, I may be wrong since this is all just my impression. I have a little suggestion here for any Nicksfan who has the time and the musical skill. Take a recent Stevie demo, replace its lyrics with your own and sing it with your own voice and accompany yourself with her chords. Then we’ll see what attraction it’ll have. ;)

In complete agreement. That’s what the polar bears ought to be singing around here.

As am I, as if the readers don’t already know that. I’d just like the people here to look at those last two words in that post ChiliD wrote. “Something listenable”. I personally value an artist who can make his/her work accessible to the general public without being overtly tasteless or resorting to cheap tricks. You can write all the deep artistic stuff you want and you can be as experimental as you like but you certainly won’t be recognized by the public. The thing is, you have to find the golden middle. The Beatles did that for instance. They will be remembered when rock’n’roll is long gone. I’m not saying that the only music that has value is the one that has commercial success (heaven forbid), but rather that those who can combine the experimental and the tradition are the ones most likely to have success. Ok, it didn’t happen to Lindsey with Out Of The Cradle but there’s another reason to that and it will be brought up one day in his forum. But I don’t think Stevie on her own has achieved that kind of combination for a long time. Ask yourself, if she was to start all over again today with nothing but her current demos, would there be any success? Would these songs be classics for all the world to hear?

Sorry, I don’t skate. But I thought a veteran like yourself would have heard at least Van Der Graaf Generator.

Sure, why not. ;) But I think all of his songs with Stevie’s harmony vocals on them would have worked quite well without her contributions. “Miranda” and “Say Goodbye” didn’t really need Stevie’s vocals. I do agree with you in a way though. Those Buckingham Nicks harmonies from the ‘70s are terrific and they still can bring a chill up one’s spine. Especially on “Everybody Finds Out”.

I haven’t ever said in this thread that she doesn’t deserve some. If fifty percent for Stevie and fifty percent for Lindsey won’t satisfy you, then how about 50,000000000000001 % for Stevie and 49,999999999999999 % for Lindsey? ;)

Bump. That album is a masterpiece.

Apparently not on this message board! That's not how it seems to work around here. :laugh: :rolleyes:

I don't think that Stevie's songwriting has gone downhill. Once she got herself off the drugs and back on track, it seems to me as if it's only gotten better.

There will never be another Dreams or Rhiannon. That's just the way it is. I personally am not looking for the same old thing anyway.

And Lindsey does deserve some credit, but not ALL the credit. For me, they're at their best when they are together. Besides, if Stevie is such a bad songwriter, then why would Lindsey say that he would love for the two of them to collaborate in the future???

Nope
 

Her songwriting has NOT gone downhill...it's changed and it's different than before, but hey, guess what....people change. They get older and experience different things. Lindsey's songwriting has changed too because of his marriage and kids.

I don't like ALL of her demos (some are excrutiating...in terms of repetitiveness and monotony mostly), but some are phenominal and it's painful that certain songs were released (Rock a Little? Ugh) while others are still in "the vault". (Space Needle) :( Then again, some people hate SN and love RAL...so, it all comes down to...what's that word I like to use alot..oh yeah, opinion.

I think Lindsey gets plenty of credit for shaping her songs, he just doesn't get his due on like...Rolling Stone lists or in general. :distress:

I just don't get the logic on this one. I could understand your point if say Lindsey's or Christine's post-70's songs did get covered by other artists, unlike Stevie's... Fact is they're not, far from it and that's stating the obvious. Are their songwriting abilities burning out too ? No it's more an indication that Fleetwood Mac and its members have slipped into relative obscurity than anything else.

As for the listenable part, Trouble In Shangri-La was released to raving reviews and didn't have any production work done by Lindsey or Iovine. My favorite song on the album (Bombay Sapphires) was produced by none other than Stevie herself... I do give the woman some credit for the sound she wants on the finished tracks. She did after all pull the plug on Dallas Austin's production because it didn't fit her style and had several other tracks redone. And let's not get started on Street Angel :)

I know this probably all boils down to opinions and preferences but to me, she certainly doesn't need anyone specific to make her songs work. A good producer yes but who doesn't need one ?

I think her songs on SYW are her best since the Tusk album, so, no I definitely don't think her songwriting has gone downhill.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Re: Nope
 

(a) Thank you! That's what can be strange about attitudes toward famous people and/or people who you feel help shaped parts of your life....you don't want them to change. But at 24, I am certainly not the same person I was at 15, nor are any of the "original" fans who are 50-something now the same person they were in 1977. Stevie is not immune to this natural sway of life, so I agree that her writing may in some ways be different but it is certainly not WORSE! If she had never changed, then people would be harping on that anyway! No one likes when they see an artist who has been around for 30 years just trying to be a pale imitation of what they once were. She just has different things to say now, but her essence has always been there.

(b)SO TRUE!























people would be harping on her for that anyway!

I was not saying she’s ever been a bad songwriter. I was just explaining why I don’t like her recent demos and also tried to come up with some pseudo-objective statements to back up my feelings on her latest works.

That’s what a few people have been saying here. That she’s changed, she’s matured and so has her writing. I don’t agree with that myself, simply because it feels to me that it’s still the same Nicksian drone. Lindsey’s growing up in his songwriting is far more obvious to me than Stevie’s. But then it’s the different things that we find from music. Maybe her lyric writing has changed somewhat, but the chords she uses are still the same they’ve always been. She could have expanded her palette by getting some musical training in the early ‘80s, but obviously she thought focusing on her image was more interesting in the end. I’m not going to lambaste her because of that though. Stevie is more than her songs anyway; that image was unique in the American culture of the time and it was a large part of her impact on people.
The thing is, I will never have Stevie as my very favourite songwriter (I don’t even have any) or anything like that. Much of her music moves me a lot, but it only functions in certain emotional centres for me. She makes me cry in a way Lindsey and Chris haven’t. She can rock when she wants to and she damn well means a lyric when she’s singing it. But her palette is very small in the end when compared to Lindsey. Our man expanded his writing style a lot. He has a lot of catchy songs such as “Second Hand News” or a lot of the songs on Tusk. He has a dark edge to his music too, something like “Street Of Dreams” or “Murrow” comes into mind immediately. He can be serious when he wants to. And then he can just do something that’s just a giddy piece of fun like “Family Man” or “Johnny Stew”. He is a more diverse writer to me than Stevie is and because I love diverse artists, I prefer Lindsey, even though he can’t do what Stevie can.

This leads me to another thing, something that occasionally tends to get mentioned on these boards. People seem to assume in a lot of places that deep, serious music equals substantial music. I basically think this is a false assumption. It’s so easy to say that something like “When I See You Again” is substantial and “Family Man” is not. This is all in your minds people and there is no objectivity in a matter like this. When a Tango In The Night discussion comes up on these boards, some people say that Stevie’s songs add a substantial quality to the album. I claim that “Family Man” is just as substantial as anything Stevie has ever written, even though it certainly isn’t even close to Lindsey’s or Stevie’s best. Why should people think that something sad, or something with serious lyrics is substantial? Why do people assume these feelings are deep? Why do they use the word “substantial” with objectivity, when it completely depends upon the person what he/she thinks is substantial? A wise man once said something like: a good laugh is as precious to me as a shed tear and a good “goof-off” is as worthy as a terrific cathartic state. I couldn’t agree more. Laughing can be as deep as crying.

And now, back to the original topic. I guess you can now see why I think Stevie’s songwriting is in decline in a musical sense. I feel that it’s always the same serious, deep mood and that’s that. I can never feel an ounce of humour in her songs and I definitely can not see her singing something just for the fun of it. If she had been diversifying her style recently, I would appreciate her writing more. But to me it just feels that it hasn’t happened. I do not want Stevie to do the same thing, I want her to change. It just seems she won’t be able to, and a part of that is because of her musical limitations. I’m sure she just wants to record something funny, a piece of nonsense or whatever. However, she’s been in the same mode for so long that she doesn’t know how to do it. I love it when she gets bouncy, for instance, like on “Jimmy Come On Back” or the title track of Say You Will (surprise, surprise, not a lot of hardcores seem to like these). But even this seems like it’s because of her producers. A lot of you fans however feel, that she’s not doing the same thing, that the lyrics are different and the vocal melody might differ, but for me this thing just isn’t as simple as that. I can’t feel any changes.

On this board he pretty much gets his due, maybe even too much as some people like to speculate. But I believe there are still fans who think that it’s Stevie who does all the music and all that music just comes through her, even on stage. This tends to happen to bands with a very charismatic frontman/woman. Genesis suffered from this after Peter Gabriel had left, so did the Doors when they had Jim Morrison. I believe the amount of people who think “it’s all Stevie’s doing” is diminishing all the time, but there are still some left. Not here maybe, but elsewhere.

I wasn’t comparing her “cover popularity” to Lindsey’s or Chris’. Chris may have had the most hits, but she definitely didn’t have an overwhelming charisma like Stevie does. Lindsey’s post-Rumours work has pretty much all been underrated in my opinion. I was comparing Stevie to Bob Dylan. Now you may say that Dylan’s been in the business longer and is therefore more popular. However, I don’t think any single Dylan album has sold as much as “Bella Donna” has. Stevie was “the face of the day” one time, yet her success lessened because she couldn’t keep certain songwriting standards up.
If Stevie’s classic period is usually considered the ‘70s, then for Bob Dylan it’s 1962-1970, at the end of which the release of Selfportrait had a lot of his fans running away from him) and 1974-1976, when he released the acclaimed albums Planet Waves, Blood On The Tracks and Desire. 1977- now is usually seen as a regressive period. I went to the All-Music Guide to see who has covered his post-1976 songs. I’m not including unknown artists into this list. This is what came up:

“Gotta Serve Somebody”:
Booker T. & the MG’s
David Allan Coe
Natalie Cole
Devo

“Every Grain Of Sand”:
Emmylou Harris

“Death Is Not The End”:
Nick Cave
The Waterboys

“Man In The Long Black Coat”:
Emerson, Lake & Palmer

“Dignity”:
Joe Cocker
Robyn Hitchcock

“To Make You Feel My Love”:
Billy Joel

“Mississippi”:
Sheryl Crow

I’m sure I could find a lot more if I had the time. And believe me, these are all recognized artists, just look at how many times their pages at AMG have been visited.

I agree with this. Though I believe that Stevie wouldn’t have slipped into relative obscurity had she diversified her craft.

Well, I guess this comment was written because of a gaffe I made. I said earlier that I also respect Rupert Hine’s and John Shanks’ work, but then I later answered to ChiliD in a way that made it seem I only cared for Buckingham or Iovine/Campbell production. My mistake, sorry.
I do agree that Stevie deserves credit on pulling the plug on her album. She’s worked with guys who have done miracles with her demos so I’m sure she pretty much knows by now how she wants her music to sound. The question is though, could she have come up with those arrangements herself?

And I’m glad she understands she needs one. God knows what would happen if she just wanted to release a demo album.

The thing is, I want her to change yet I feel she hasn’t. Or at least her music hasn’t. That’s the biggest problem.

We can go on about this for a long time I suppose. You all have raised some good points and I do realize I’m just speaking about my feelings in the end. That’s what we’re all doing here. We feel something very strongly and then start bringing out some rational points that only support what we feel. We hesitate bringing out points that might be contradictory to our feelings. Who knows, maybe there’s someone here who even wants the opponent to crack and confess that he/she is wrong. That’s not what I want and I’d like to think I haven’t tried doing it.
I wouldn’t write this much about one issue if it wasn’t Stevie we’re talking about. I LOVE a lot of this woman’s work and when I start to feel that something is missing, that the freshness is gone, then I start feeling bad. Stevie has given so much for all of us throughout the years that criticizing her might seem harsh. I don’t however, see any problems with enjoying the work I love just as much as I’ve enjoyed it before, even though I’ve written all this stuff. But I guess I better tone down at last. :)

I was joking...of course I know of Van Der Graaf Generator.