But WHY do you not like it?
 

Okay folks...let's let off some steam. ;)

You say you don't like Red Rover...but WHY do you dislike it?

You say you don't like WISYA....but WHY do you dislike it?

Tell us!!

I don't care for Silver Girl. WHY? I like the music, it's the LYRICS that I don't like..."girly girl...high tech world..." BLECK!!

Why don't I like WISYA? It's repetitive, pointless, and it drags. I mean, when I transcribed those lyrics for my site, I was just grimacing. Observe:

"What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby...baby... baby
What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby...baby"

AAAARGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

As for Red Rover, I LOVE it. I also don't understand the hostility towards it. I think it's terrific!

Forgive me for chiming in once again about "When I See You Again," but this is one song that I'll "defend" until I'm blue in the face, simply because I love it that much. :)

Stevie is using a repetitive phrase ("what's the matter, baby") in much the same way that T.S. Eliot did in his 'The Hollow Men'....

"This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a whimper."

The repetition of the phrase is meant to pull the listener/reader in, and to further drive home the bleak mood of the piece. Its use is entirely purposeful here, and not a mere space filler (which can't be said of many songs).

In "When I See You Again," her (former) lover is posing a question, which Stevie then repeats until she's asking it of herself.

At any rate... I know I'm not really going to change anyone's opinion of the song. If you hate it now, you probably always will.
I just think the reasons for its bad reputation, are a little unfair. :)

I have to be in the right kind of mood for WISYA. If I've had a bad day, it'll grate on my nerves. Not because of "What's the matter baby," that's actually my favorite part (probably because everyone else hates it). I just really don't like how Stevie presents the song. Her voice is a bit too wistful. Plus, the song I think needed more parts to it for the end. Instead you get Lindsey singing a few lines and the music just goes on and on.

As for Red Rover, I think it's actually beginning to get it's itch on me. But still a big problem with the song is, as with many songs on SYW, I can't understand what the Hell Lindsey is saying. And that bothers me since I'm a lyrics person as well as a sing-a-long person, so if I can't hear the words I can't learn the words and therefore I cannot sing along. Worse for me is Murrow and Come, the former due to it's even worse vocal clarity, and the latter due to Lindsey annoying screeching on the chorus. Too much head voice, and too much guitar. However, Come in concert was much better.

These are my exact reason for not liking Murrow and Red Rover, however I do like Come because I can understand (for the most part) what he's saying and I actually find it fun to sing along to...the other two, however, I just can't get a grasp on them I don't hate them at all...they are just not my favorites...

I really LIKE both of these songs. Red Rover is one of my fav. Lindsey songs.

:nod: Nae

I posted why I don't like WISYA and WTTR...S in another thread, but I'll post it hear for your sake, Christy :)

There are many reasons why I, and I'm sure many others, don't like WISYA. I know that Stevie writes in an honest, truthful way and that she allows herself to show her true colors and vulnerability, but it doesn't necessarily mask a bad song.

The vocals are very poor. I've said it before, but I'll say it again: it's as if Stevie forgot how to sing when they recorded this. Her vocals are lousy. They're whiny, sharp, and too scratchy. The only good vocal comes from Lindsey.

The lyrics are lazy and among the worst she's ever written (and I don't think she has written many bad songs). I think this is the worst part of the song:

"So she walks slowly
down the hall
There are many doors
in the hallway
And she stares at the stairs
Ooh there are many things
to stare at these days"

The repetition of "Whassamattababay" grates on the nerves. Any song that just repeats itself over and over, regardless if it's a Stevie/Mac song, is obnoxious. The fact that she starts off singing it and then whispering it and then screeching it and then caterwauling it doesn't help.

I love Stevie and understand all of her lyrics like the rest of y'all. However, for people who are not fans that hear a song like WISYA, it won't make them a fan and I think the lyrics are a big part in that. WISYA and WTTR...S would be incomprehensible to someone who isn't a fanatic like us on the board. Frontline, baby? It's not home and it's not Tara? Deja vu? Upstairs where the stars laugh and shine? They'd be scratching their heads in bewilderment, asking how all this mess ties together. I expect most people would laugh hysterically at the "Whassamattababays" and the staring at stairs in WISYA. The song just doesn't come together.

Just my opinion though!

With all due respect, that's just silly. If you don't like it because it sucks, then you don't like it. What's unfair about that? I don't like tripe (the kind you eat... and other kinds as well, come to think of it). Is that unfair?

You can defend it till you're blue in the face but I doubt you'll ever change anybody's mind. This is among the worst pieces of drivel to ever come out of Ms. Nicks' lips and pen. The only redeeming thing about it is the guitar work, especially the Spanish guitar at the end.

I'm sorry, but you cannot compare The Hollow Men to WISYA. Hollow Men was written in a completely different way than WISYA and there is no comparing drivel to a masterpiece. The Hollow Men builds up to the end where he repeats "this is the way the world ends..." Yes, there is a reason that it is repeated three times, but it's for completely different reasons than WISYA. It isn't necessarily to drive home the bleak mood, but to confirm it. It gets progressively bleak as the it goes on until it explodes. The stanza you quoted doesn't drive home anything; it confirms what we already were told AT THE END of the piece.

WISYA doesn't build up to much of anything, it's just dark and bleak from the start and it doesn't really intensify (like The Hollow Men) at all and no point is ever driven home. Where the repetition in Hollow Men was sparse and very hard-hitting, "Whassamattababay" isn't. It grates on the nerves and makes one not want to listen to the whole thing. They just want to press skip and get to "Isn't It Midnight."

"Red Rover" would be my favorite off of Say You Will if it wasn't for Stevie's "Silver Girl." And "When I See You Again" would be my favorite off of Tango In the Night if it wasn't "Welcome To the Room...Sara." I guess I've never been one of popular judgement.

If you want to attack Stevie for the repetiveness of WISYA, you gotta give Lindsey the same for I Must Go.

You could say that's the worst piece of drivel to ever come out of Lindsey. He says "I must go" about about 147 times.

Ok, Linds, I get it. You gotta go. Go already. He was making a point about his life at the time. Even though it's not my favorite thing to listen to, I can appreciate it that was something he needed to express. You can't bash an artist for doing what true artists do, which is emote about their experiences.

In WISYA, Stevie is doing the same thing. It's not my favorite song, but hearing her sounding like that, so broken, so fragile, her voice so ravaged.......... it does make me want to cry and give her a hug. It's an expression of all her hurt and pain at the time. It's not supposed to be pretty to listen to.

That's what I love about them both. You get all the emotions, all the parts of their lives, and it's not always pretty.

-Sharon

I totally agree :nod:

I hated Murrow, Red Rover and Come from the outset. However, Murrow started growing on me, so I stopped skipping that song. And then I saw LB do Come in concert, and I was just blown away. So now I listen to that song, too (at least until the end when he is too over the top with the guitar).

Red Rover is a different story. I really like the music, but I can't understand LB and even when I read the words, I don't get it. I don't like the incessant repeated (Red rover, red rover, we've come, we've come to take you over - BLECH!!!).

I'm starting to come around on Red Rover. Still, I can't listen to the whole thing at once. It's like getting into a pool when the water is chilly. A little bit at a time...

Murrow, on the other hand, I have no preference one way or the other. I usually don't skip it, but it does absolutely nothing for me.

No one's attacking anybody. When I See You Again comes up repeatedly as one of the least liked songs for a good reason. It plain and simple sucks. Stevie couldn't sing. The lyrics were awful. Anybody can find meaning in any string of words put together, so it doesn't surprise me that a handful of people think the song is wonderful. Good for them, but it doesn't change the fact she couldn't sing and she couldn't really write at that point. Hey, that's OK, she had already proven herself, and she got much better later. Anyone can have a nadir.

As for I must go, sure it's repetitious but I, for one, have not knocked repetition. I Must Go is infectious; it's about the propulsive rhythm. There's lots of motion in that song. To me, the whole Go Insane album was always an amazing sonic experience. If you get hung up on the lyrics in that album, you're not getting it.

Exactly. :D

Sure, calling something "the worst piece of drivel to come from Stevie Nicks' lips and pen" isn't attacking.

That's objectivity at it's finest. Silly me.

I am more of a lyrics person, that doesn't mean I don't "get" work Go Insane.

You have to remember that everyone interprets this stuff differently, and it doesn't make anybody right or wrong.

I could say that if you can't see past the surface in a song like WISYA, then you obviously don't get it, but then I would be remiss, since that is merely my opinion.

It takes all types.

-Sharon

You can see under the surface and understand what she's getting at, but that doesn't mean that it makes the song good. It's still a terrible song, even when you understand it. It's all in the way it's presented and, in this case, it's presented pretty badly.

Originally posted by sulamith
Sure, calling something "the worst piece of drivel to come from Stevie Nicks' lips and pen" isn't attacking.

It's a strongly worded opinion. God knows I've read plenty of strongly worded opinions from you and didn't take you to task. Opinions are opinions.

That's objectivity at it's finest. Silly me.

Silly you? Perhaps. "Objectivity" is your characterization, not mine.

I am more of a lyrics person, that doesn't mean I don't "get" work Go Insane.

If you're excusing the repetition in WISYA because of the repetition in I Must Go, you've definitely missed something.

You have to remember that everyone interprets this stuff differently, and it doesn't make anybody right or wrong.

If you can find an instance in which I claimed anyone was wrong, please refresh me. I even conceded that a few people my think this song is wonderful, and that's good for them.

I could say that if you can't see past the surface in a song like WISYA, then you obviously don't get it, but then I would be remiss, since that is merely my opinion.

I can see past the surface enough to realize there's some beautiful guitar work, and I've said as much. Go back and read it. The guitar work, however, cannot save this very bad song.

It takes all types.

It sure does.

36, actually. lol

I too don't "get" the genius of I Must Go, but since Christy specifically asked about WISYA, I addressed the repetitiveness in that one solely. As for IMG, I think when you have to ignore lyrics to enjoy a song something's missing. It's not just the lyrics but the melody that's relentlessly repetitive. It sounds more like a man caught in an endless loop of indecision than one who is breaking free.

I got your back, JohnnyStew.

I like WISYA as well.

Saying you don't like it because it sucks is actually a more valid opinion than saying she can't write or sing at this point in her career. If you don't like it because it sucks in your opinion, that's fine. Not everyone is going to like every single Mac song.

However, saying she couldn't write or sing is a different story. Vocally, take Seven Wonders, probably her strongest vocal on the album. Which leads me to believe she sang WISYA like that on purpose, and I think it fits the mood of the song.
Lyrically, it is a simple song. I like that too. It is very straight forward and does draw the listener in. You know from the very first line this is a song about a very difficult goodbye.

Randy

Randy, do you like the song? You didn't even say that, so I wonder if you are arguing just for the sake of it. That's OK, I do that too.

However, reread what I quoted above. On the one hand you're saying it's OK for me to dislike the song because it sucks, but it's not OK for me to dislike it if I say she couldn't write or sing at that point? I don't know about you, but I see a mathematical truth there:

Couldn't write + couldn't sing = song sucks.

Pretty damn simple.

Wow.
 

Interesting reading!!

I didn't mean for everyone to "pick" on WISYA or Red Rover in particular, I just meant, whatever FM song you don't care for...tell us WHY. NTF is a song not many like as well as most LB songs on Mirage...so if you don't like THOSE songs, tell us why.

I'm not fond of the song Over and Over from Tusk...I don't HATE it, it's just a skipper for me...it's SOOOO slow and plodding. I do love the 1980 Live album version of it tho...LB's guitar is MASTERFUL!!

I cannot listen to Sugar Daddy...I've tried. I don't know WHAT it is really, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the White Album, IMO. It sounds, I dunno....silly to me. LOL

I wouldn't get my panties in a wad over who says a song sucks or not....lots of you hate Red Rover.....that song brings me to tears...so, I don't care who hates it, it moves me...and that's ALL that matters. :nod:

I only started this thread to get some sort of idea as to WHY we all disliked certain songs. :shrug:

I think that, regardless if anyone chooses to admit it, that Stevie couldn't sing at all around that time and she couldn't write very well. All you have to do is listen to some bootlegs from the RAL tour and it'll be obvious that she couldn't sing, she could just scream and wail and babble incoherently. By a writing standpoint, she was just as terrible. The quality just was not there. You can't compare WISYA and WTTR...S quality-wise with songs like Gypsy, How Still My Love, or even I Can't Wait; their is no comparison, IMO. By this point in her career, she was just writing down stream-of-consciousness thoughts onto paper and using them for songs. If she was a good writer in that period, she wouldn't of had to use a Sandy Stewart song and she wouldn't have left her remaining songs so incoherent. For the average person, trying to decipher Edge of Seventeen would be easier than deciphering WTTR...S.

So, I wholeheartedly agree with Carne: at this point, she couldn't sing for beans and she couldn't write well.

Lord knows I'm not trying to get into another Stevie vs. Lindsey argument here, but I just wanted to add a few additional comments.

CarneVaca... Nancy (sodascouts) made the comment that "I Must Go," "sounds more like a man caught in an endless loop of indecision than one who is breaking free," as part of her argument as to why she doesn't care for the song.
To which you whole-heartedly agreed (at least that's how I took your "BINGO" response)... implying that this is what makes the song so terrific.

So, once again, I don't understand why... when Lindsey has taken a certain step (an endlessly repeated phrase, in this case), it's EXACTLY the right thing for the song, and another facet of what makes it so great... but if Stevie also uses a repeated phrase, or a particular vocal style, it's somehow a cop-out on her part, and the resulting song is merely "drivel" and "tripe."

Can you at least understand how, as much as you, personally, can glean from a song such as "I Must Go," and as much as you find enjoyment from it... that's how much a song such as "When I See You Again" can be appreciated by, and moving to, someone else?

I'm also reminded of your arguments for "Family Man"... another song which a large amount of people often cite as "the worst" (though I myself happen to love the song).

I completely realize that you understand that some people do like "When I See You Again" (though I noted an implication... correct me if i'm wrong... that people are merely "excusing" it because it's Stevie), and you're absolutely, 100% allowed to have your opinion and to dislike the song... but to completely write it off (aside from Lindsey's contribution to the song), is... in my opinion... a bit short-sighted.

Hence my original comment that the song's bad repuation is rather unfair.

Again, I'm not saying everyone HAS to like the song, or that they SHOULD like it... I simply wanted to point out that all of the reasons people cite as examples of what a bad song it is, are exactly what I, and not just a few other people, think make it such an amazing song.
Perhaps even brilliant in its own right. :)

Jeeeeeeeez, even *I* like "When I See You Again"...

...DESPITE my
1) abhorance of the "whatsamattababies"
2) hatred of the tone of Stevie's voice
3) thinking it is NOT a good song and that it is not one of the upper eschelon (sp?) of Stevie's contributions...

...But...for some goddamned reason I like it. I don't know why. :shrug:

Maybe it all comes down to the contradiction of Stevie singing "WHEN I see you again" and Lindsey singing "IF I see you again"...which just said VOLUMES, especially in retrospect. And, Lindsey's guitar work. I do agree with Stevie's view at the time that it should've been the album closer.

Oddly enough, this is my favorite period for Stevie's voice.
I will grant you that many of the live performances were less than stellar, but her voice on 'Rock A Little' and 'Tango' is absolutely amazing, to my ears.

I love that she could go from that hard-edged, tough rocker-chick voice, one minute ("I Can't Wait," "Seven Wonders"), to this fragile, raspy, Billie Holliday voice, the next.

I have missed that voice on every recording since.

Also, I think the lyrics to the songs from this time period are far more moving and substantive than her earlier songs (I will once again go on record as saying that I actually prefer "When I See You Again" to "Landslide")... even if, on the surface, they seem "out there."

I think that her earlier songs were perhaps just a little more universal, and therefore easier to understand and relate to.

But, as I've often noted, it's all a matter of personal preference. :)

'Cuz it's friggin' amazing, that's why! ;) :laugh:

AMEN!
 

AMEN MY BRUTHA!! That's what it all amounts to!

Music is AMAZING, isn't it?! :nod::D

Nah...I think it is more like "I have to like at least ONE Stevie Nicks song on the album and since she didn't write "Seven Wonders" and I hate everything about "WTTR..S", I had to like WISYA by default. :laugh:

See, I always thought that the lyrics from the RAL songs were her most universal and "mainstream." I don't think that any of them make you think and reflect the way that songs like Sara, Gypsy, Gold Dust Woman, and Storms do. I mean, I just think that songs like I Can't Wait, The Nightmare, If I Were You, Imperial Hotel, and I Sing For the Things are pretty self-explanatory once you hear the lyrics, whereas when you hear Sara or Gold Dust Woman you actually have to *think* about what she's saying or at least ponder it for awhile. Her mid-eighties songs don't do it for me because they aren't as deep and edited very well. Some of them just make me laugh.

But, it is a matter of preference. :)

RE: the RAL songs...aren't most of them NOT written by her? Or they are co-written w/ someone else? That says a lot right there...

Maybe you just need to snort a mountain of cocaine before you listen to those albums to "get" them? :shrug: :laugh:

Damnit, Beavis, don't make me slap you! :p

;) :laugh:

I dunno... I've never partaken of a single illegal substance in my life, and I "get" them, so...!

But then, I'm a weirdo from way-back! :laugh:

Yes, many of them do have a co-writing credit... but Stevie was the lyricist, and the other person credited was writing the music. :)

LOL

I get them, they just aren't very good songs when you consider what she was capable of. :)

ITA agree about the early 80s lyrics being more substantive than the later 80s (as a rule, certainly not without exception). I find the following songs off of RAL especially grating: Sister Honey, Imperial Hotel, and THE NIGHTMARE (wretched - arguably one of her worst!). From OSOTM: Long Way to Go, Ghosts, Fire Burning, Alice, and Doing the Best That I Can.

On the other hand, Ooh My Love and Battle of the Dragon are two of my top 20 Stevie songs ever, and they were also written around that time. BOTD is especially brilliant. So I wouldn't say that Stevie couldn't write or sing at that point. I would say that she perhaps lost her focus a bit, maybe was feeling a little uninspired and couldn't find the energy to break out of it with all her drug difficulties.

The fact that Johnny Stew likes this period BEST shows that beauty really is in the ear of the beholder, lol.

there are some things that i already gave up hope to be ever able to understand; mathematics, eminem fans, why people think cinnamon is good, fluorescent lighting, people who don't believe deodorant is a man's best friend, users that turns off their cellphones, and stevie nicks fans who don't get When I See You Again.
yes, it's repetative, but not by any means 'family-man-repetative'. every time she goes back to "what's the matter baby" she sings this line in a totally different expression and manner.
it's one of those little intimate stevie songs such as goodbye baby or landslide... i love the way it's written and i adore the way she sounds there, let's face it, she was never about vocal ability, she's all about vocal expression, WISYA is just one of those songs, you cannot listen to it without FEELING it, it's so true and so desperate, that it can melt even the icyest hearts (such as mine :eek:.)

That it is. ;)

I do think that some of my affection for this period is born out of the chaotic nature of Stevie's life at the time.
I find it amazing that she could still... in my opinion, at least... be very creative.
Despite how it may seem, I don't think she hit a home-run everytime, but I still think this was an amazing period in her career.

I also think that the difference between me and a lot of people here, is that I pretty much joined the ride at the time of 'Rock A Little.'
I wasn't someone who was looking back and comparing it to things she had already written (despite that I had already known and loved songs like "Gypsy" and "Edge Of Seventeen") and at the time, I didn't know about the cocaine addiction, or that Stevie hadn't always been so over-the-edge in her performances.

It was all pretty new, and exciting, and compelling to me.

But, if there really wasn't anything there, I would have lost interest years ago (as I have in so many other artists I've listened to over the years).

There have been some very major, and markedly different periods in Stevie's career, and it's no wonder that we all feel so vehemently about the various stages.