Silver Springs: The worst decision in the history of pop?
 

OK, the title is somewhat misleading. We all know Lindsey made a last-minute decision to pull Silver Springs from Rumours. I Don't Wanna Know, a fair but not brilliant song, took its place. There wasn't enough room for Silver Springs.

Question: Is this the worst decision in the history of pop music, considering how great Silver Springs is? Should Lindsey have rearranged the album, maybe pulling out Oh Daddy for instance, to fit the song?

Yes - this was the worst decision I can think of.

I think on some level some form of ego driven jealousy took over and some members of the band realized that if they included it that would probably give La Nicks the not necessarily better, but certainly most pop oriented and chartable (sp.?) song on the record, esp. given her popularity at the time (no slam on the pop oriented and definitely chartable Don't Stop or GYOW intended :cool: ). Moreover and not meaning to tread of pop history and perfection, I think all they needed was less than a minute of time to make it fit. They could have taken "a few seconds here a few seconds there" from other songs such as "Oh Daddy," "The Chain," etc., to accomplish this goal. This time could have been taken in different places in each song. For example, "Dreams" could have been edited about three seconds in the intro (i.e. she starts singing sooner) and she could have deleted one of the choruses at the end for an additional gain of about 10 seconds. She could have also shortened the music and perhaps one chorus of SS. So, my point is if they as a group had wanted it on Rumors, it was possible to put it on there. They also could have put it on Tusk. So, I think someone just did not want it on there for whatever reason.

Food for Thought

I thought Mick took it off, not Lindsey... :confused:

I think Stevie would have quit if Lindsey was being that overtly manipulative against her. It was just a more technical thing, and yes Mick was the one who pulled the short straw to tell her; but he was the manager anyway I guess. I know it's not for me to say one way or the other, but I just believe that Lindsey would not have been that boundlessly vindictive to actually tryu to work against the song being on the record if he thought it was good. Going from he's said about it in some VBOFM articles, he liked the song and really laboured on the arrangement and was very pleased with it.

As for I Don't Wanna Know and Oh Daddy - I'd be the first to see BOTH of these get the hike from Rumours, with SS in place - then it would be perfect IMO. But is it just me or at this point they weren't "backing away from commercial success" like in Tusk. They were aiming for it. Judging by the previous album from 1975, Chrsitine was they key to giving them the hits. I think that at that stage they gave more album weight to Chris than Stevie from what had been proven up until that point. That's for Oh Daddy. As for IDWK - well, how could they resist... it's total muzak. :distress: I get the distinct impression Lindsey would have been happier to see SS in place of IDWK. But he was not calling the shots at that stage.

Everyone from Ken Caillat to Richard Dashut to Mick Fleetwood to Stevie Nicks herself has said the song was removed due to time constraints with vinyl, and several of those people have also indicated it was a collective decision not arrived at easily.

So I have to disagree with the form of the question. It's never been said that removing Silver Springs was Lindsey's decision. I don't think it's got anything to do with anyone else in the band trying to deny Stevie of anything. If jealousy or anger or hurt feelings were involved, that would have stopped the song in its tracks before it even got started. The band wouldn't have gone through the process of completing the entire song and mixing it and making it the beautiful piece that it is unless they had very much originally intended for it to make the album. There is a great deal of blood, sweat and tears put into that song by everyone - a lot of completely beautiful guitar work by Lindsey.

Stevie admits herself that she doesn't like to cut things out of her songs. I imagine the notion of cutting something out of Dreams and cutting something out of Silver Springs to make them both fit on the album was entirely unacceptable to her. It would have been cutting off an ear here and a nose there. That's not something she was willing to do.

I suspect it didn't turn up on subsequent albums because Stevie felt it very much represented the Rumours time period and because she was always writing new things for new projects. She could have rerecorded Silver Springs for one of her solo albums, but she never did that either.

It clearly very much upset Stevie at the time, and understandably so, but ultimately Rumours didn't turn out too shabby and Silver Springs has probably taken on a greater meaning and mythology because of its path to be heard.

Hear hear Les. I wanted to remark that frankly I'm almost happy that it turned out to be this 'jewel in the crown' when it was reapproached for The Dance, but I thought it'd be too heretical against the Rumours-version fans :D

And I've realised what the Worst Mistake in the History of Pop/Fleetwood Mac: Oh Diane making the UK/Australian version of the 1988 Greatest Hits CD.

Attribute my pinning the decision on Lindsey in my original question to my faulty memory. But I think if he had really pushed for the song, it would have made the album. I could be wrong, but after all, Lindsey was as much the producer of that project as anyone.

There was a technical problem, yes, but pulling out Silver Springs was the easisest decision they could have made. If you take out Oh Daddy, the low point of Rumours in my view, and insert Silver Springs, you have a tremendous album. Not that it is shabby otherwise.

Strand, I'm not sure I would call Go Your Own Way a chart-friendly song. Now that 25 years have elapsed and we've all heard it on the radio thousands of times, it may seem like a radio-ready song. But in 1977, you had the oddball beat to contend with, and the band actually took a calculated risk in releasing it as the first single off Rumours.

Oh, dude, now you've done it! Wait till Mrs. Carne sees this!

LOL! Lindsey himself has said he doesn't much like Oh Diane, so he might agree with you. ;)

Hey - I like Oh Diane!!!!!!! :mad: I don't love it, but I really do like it :laugh: But, I totally agree with it being the low point!!!!!!

Also, I, too, am glad SS made its way to The Dance. it just seems to have "made" that already great concert by injecting it full of, for want of a better word, venom.

He said that!!??

I like that song.

There are definitely worse songs in Mirage than Oh Diane.

Actually, In a 1991 interview just before she hit the stage at the Roxy, Stevie was asked about 'Silver Springs' and she said she was going to rerecord it for her next album. This was around the time she was furious at Mick for not letting her have the original recording to put onto 'Timespace.'

It is a godsend that she didn't record it in a Klonopin haze...

Randy

On hearing the Mirage outtakes, it seems to me there was wealth of unused material for that record, some of it actually much better than what made the record.
As for Silver Springs, it was too long to be a single I think, which probably factored into the decision not to put it on the album. When you think about it, it was really one of the first of Stevie's "angry songs" to be recorded and FM has a pattern of not going with Stevie's angry songs. Sure, she was allowed to tear up Rhiannon live but not on the record. I think the band thought the bitterness factor of Silver Springs didn't fit with the rest of the sound of Rumors. As far as it being a mistake, I view it as a blessing in disguise because we got it in 1997 instead. I'll never forget the MTV special when she turned to face LB and let him have it with the end of that song. That, to me, epitomized the Buckingham Nicks magic in Fleetwood Mac.

I, too, will never in my life forget the chills I had when I saw that. I was alone and thinking there is no way she will ever be able to do that vocal with her current voice. Boy was I wrong. And then she turned and barked - Sigh!!!!

yes, having Silver Springs on the Dance record along with the live MTV performance seems to have attracted an entire new fanbase for Stevie and FM. Lots of younger Ledge members themselves who credit the Dance and MTV for their introduction to our favorite band. The Silver Springs performance truly captured the magic and tragedy of Stevie and Lindsey's relationship more than GYOW did back in the 70's... sorry Carne :wavey: but you're on the Stevie board now!!! :laugh:

When the Dance came out, I wasn't aware of Silver Springs' story. I knew it had to be old because, obviously, she says it's a great old song.. but I didn't know it had been pulled. After hearing the story, I thought it was a really bad decision to pull it off Rumours.

Then I thought.. wait.. if it had been on Rumours, then it might not have brought The Dance the success it did. A lot of my friends are not particularly FM fans- they know nothing about the music except "Don't Stop" (blah) "Little Lies" and a couple of the other hits that they know but don't know are FM's; but because of Silver Springs' airplay on MTV and VH1, they know it, and a few of them bought the cd JUST for that song. (And later got an extra little gem with Landslide.)

So I guess, from that perspective it is a blessing in disguise, and, in all honesty, I think it's really cool that a song has a story like that. A beautiful song, completely done pulled off a multi-platinum record. A LOVE song on the B-Side of a F-You single, both written from one writer to the other. Later released "kinda" on the boxed set and forgotten. Then, things go full circle and that song helps push FM back into a spotlight. Sweet revenge for the song, in a way.

This is one of the songs I'm really close to. I love Silver Springs- old and new versions, I think it's up there with the absolute BEST of Fleetwood Mac.


(And about Oh Diane- I used to hate it, but now I find it tolerable. I used to have an intense dislike for the entire Mirage album, but I got over that. )

Sarah

Bella, I don't think I could have said that any better. That's the whole reason I discovered the Mac :nod:

Exactly. She captured the emotion so perfectly as only Stevie can . The part at the end where she says "Was I just a fool? Give me one more chance" is the regret that every person feels even if it's for just a second when they break off a serious love affair. The way she sings the "give me one more chance" line just nails it. Next time you watch The Dance, watch her sing that to him and check out the look on her face. It's like she's living in that moment when they broke up. There's no acting there. It's another one of the many cool things I love about Miss Stevie Nicks.:)

I agree completely.....it shows just how much passion was/is involved with these two.....it does take you to where they were, and if there was something going on during the dance tour, (which I am convinced there was) then the drama of that song is twofold.

I used to think nothing happened but the more that I;ve read and the more that I've heard leads me to believe that it did. Even they have said some very telling things in their recent interviews. I guess it's true what Stevie said in the Timespace booklet when she was talking about I Can't Wait (although I think that song was not directed at LB). "Love is blind, it never works out..but you just have to have it..."

So true!! Everytime I watch it I catch myself yelling YOU GO GIRL!

He looks really scared during that part, trying to hide behind his guitar...

Probably thinking to himself..."Sh*t...I f*cked up big time...she's gonna kill me...":eek:


:laugh:

That performance is what made me the huge F.M. fan I am today.

Anyway, it seems to me that Lindsey and Mick ganged up on Stevie, I mean, Lindsey wasn't about to edit or pull any of his songs so it was Stevie who had to suffer. If Silver Springs were to have made it on Rumours it would have been as dynamic and maybe even more popular than GYOW or Don't Stop (I'm REALLY betting on the latter) and I don't think Lindsey could handle that. His competitive nature wouldn't let him, and at the time of Rumours he was VERY much at odds with Stevie so I doubt that he cared very much about sparing her feelings. Yeah, Mick was the one who had to break it to Stevie but I'm sure the decision to cut SS was a Lindsey/Mick effort and probably more of a Lindsey effort due to the fact that he was so integral in the recording process.

Silver Springs definitely should have been on Rumours. As Stevie said on the DVD of the making of Rumours,"It was one of the Rumours songs".
I agree with alot thats been said, Stevie's performance was true to life, and very passionate, and it all came across, so in that sense it was the best thing on "The Dance". On the other hand, it was obvious that much work had been done on that track-Linsey's production and guitar playing on that is amazing. I think the politics of the band were such that despite the fact that it was possibly the best song on there, it was pulled. Stevie said she never had much power in F Mac, and I dont think at the time they appreciated what she had obviously brought to the band. Stevie was the focal point in those years, and still is in a way, and I think Lindsey,being the producer really, pulled it.
But its out there now and its still as powerful to me as it was the first time I heard it back in 1981 when a friend gave me a tape of that song.

Silver Springs is my favorite Stevie song in the world, and I have to admit it would've really done well in Rumours (kind of a nice break between McVie's sentimentalism)...but it would've given it much more notoriety and I kind of like it not being another "Landslide".

Crown, I totally agree. Now while I'm not hating on "Landslide" because it's a gorgeous song and quite sentimental as well, "Silver Springs" is far and away my fave of the two. Lyrically, musically, the emotions it stirs up in SN everytime she sings it, the mythology, and the fact that it is the reason that I am the huge Mac fan I am today. Period. :nod: :)

xx Meredith

PS. And my mom was born and raised in Silver Spring, Maryland. It's destiny! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

It's difficult to not get it now especially with all of the things Stevie has alluded to. To me, TISL was the "Lindsey is really moving on, now I really need to get over him because he's going to have a family and I can't be the woman that steps in between that" album. Say You Will is the "damn, look at you now...I still can't get over you but you'll always be mine no matter what" album. A few of the songs that were on TISL were written on The Dance tour. Those that weren't or may have been written earlier in her life were obviously put on there for a reason because they all fit in with what may have happened. If you listen to the whole thing at once, it's like, telling you this amazing story.

Anyway, *cough* *cough *You know, I have to say..I think the Rumours version of Silver Springs is beautiful...however, it just doesn't pack the same punch as The Dance version. The way Stevie sings Silver Springs on the original version is rather meek and mild....kind of little girlish. I'm sure had she gotten the opportunity to perform it back then, it may have been more intense BUT, to see her drag that mic across the stage and start yelling like that....to hear the power in her voice as she basically asks for another chance in the song...how she kind of cocks her head and shakes it as her eyes start to bulge...woah....it's just so moving. So, I'm kind of glad It wasn't on that album because we may have not gotten the same intensity and performance out of Silver Springs in 98'...or would we??? It was just this amazing old song dug out of the archives just begging to be performed and i'm glad they did. It will remain, for me, one of her most powerful songs.

I think you're right about that. When you think about some of the songs she chose to put on TISL (Sorcerer, Candlebright & POTU) it was as though a catharsis was going on. Especially telling I think are the new verses for Planets which just make that song even more of a masterpiece than the original piano demo. It ends the story, up to that point anyway.

I agree entirely! :nod: I think the song is sung much better by Stevie the woman than by Stevie the girl. And I like the song better in Stevie's lower vocal range.

susieq :wavey:

I'll second that! I do like the "oooohhhh aaaahhhh" at the end of the Rumours version, but The Dance version gives me goose bumps & sends chills up my spine to this day. I'm also in the same boat as a few of you - The Dance started my fan craziness & SS is such a huge part of that. Paula

I, for one, would have loved to have this song released on Rumours. It totally fits with the time.

However, I am so happy that Stevie got a grammy nomination when the song was released on The Dance (of course, she should have won!).

I agree that the passion at the end of the song captures the essense of FM. However, I think it is hard to judge the vocal to the Dance version without thinking of the video performance. I think that is why alot of people like this version better - not for the vocals, per se, but because of the intensity of the visual performance.

I really like the two early versions of the song from the Rumours sessions. I think her voice sounds much angrier at the end. I really like the longer demo version, too. I have often wondered if this was the "early" version of the song that they tried to cut down to fit it on the album. Does anyone know?

Silver Springs '97 got me into Fleetwood Mac - I heard it on the radio and it all went from there. It was meant to be!

Oh, and I like Oh Diane! Stop ragging on your own work, Lindsey! :(

Nancy, as long as there are girls like us sitting in the audience and fanning ourselves because, well, we feel the fever, he'll stop ragging on his own work ;) :D

I definitely think that while SS should have been on Rumours, it now has achieved a greater degree of recognition. I have a friend who heard The Dance and questioned Stevie refering to SS as "a great old song." He thought it was new. When I explained the deal, he was horrified that they could let that song just slip through the cracks (as far as non- FM fanatics go.) It now has it's rightful place in music history...and all of us that have always loved it have been vindicated!

PS: This was my first post ever, so pardon the rambling.

Ramble on!:D

Maybe for some.. but not for me. I don't need a visual representation of the emotion in The Dance's version- it comes through enough in the music. I think it is her lower register, but this song sounds so perfect now because it's the quintessential "in retrospect.." type of thing. I had to bump this post because I'm listening to it at this moment, and God.. Silver Springs is like the perfect song. It makes me WANT to cry- not that I'm crying- but it makes me wish I was! (If you get what I'm saying.) You don't even have to know the Stevie/Lindsey story for it to touch you.. it's just a good damn song.

Sarah

I LOVE this song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is my all time favourite FM song. The performance of the song on The Dance Concert is excellent. I too think that Lindsey looks scared as **** when she starts screaming out the lines at him. She is soo good at conveying emotion in her songs and this is her crown jewel. I t should have been on the Rumours album but if had been look at what we may have missed.

Mick did do it, not lindsey.


then when stevie wanted to put silver springs on time space, mick refused her that wish and thats when stevie said, see ya. SHE SAID that she had give the publishing writes to her mother for that song and then when mick said no to her, she left FM. too bad they could of had a big hit 25 years ago. Im glad that it was a hit today tho, that way stevie has every right to say SEE, you made a huge mistake.... taking it off the record... but i also think or shall i say i know , that when stevie showed an interest for it to be on timespace, mick said no, because he saw dollar signs he wanted it to be a FM song, and i think it ended up on the best of fleetwood mac or something and or the box set from yrs ago, but the dance made it explode.. go stevie for knowing a hit when she writes one................

Mick was the one that told Stevie in the parking lot of a studio in L.A. if I remember the story correctly.

But, as much as Mick seems to be all about $$$$$ for the most part (I do think on some significant level he cares about the music), he had a valid point about Stevie using the talent of the four members of FM on a solo song. I have heard the demo of Silver Springs. Although like most of Stevie's demos (See Sara) it sounds similar to the final, produced Rumors cut, LB's production definitely shows as does Mick and John's part and CM's beautiful parts. So, if Stevie were to use the "final"orchestration, she would have to pay FM as they produced her demo to this final product. I am sure they could have worked out some deal if they had wanted to, but the rest as they say is history - and what a history it turned out to be.

Finally, I have somewhere a live version of Silver Springs from like 1976. Let me tell you, La Nicks' vocal is the closest thing to perfection of rage and anger while simutaneously innocent I have ever heard and, IMO, it blows not only her vocal chords, but the 1997 Dance version away and that is no small thing to do as that is close to perfect. :cool: