Is Lindsey Overdoing It?
 

Lindsey's fingerpicking is second to none in the rock/pop world. But is he overdoing it a bit on SYW? Is his approach to Red Rover and Say Goodbye, for instance, too over the top?

I think it's great, not really OTT at all. The fingerpicked chord changes in the verses of Say Goodbye are beautiful, and quite simple to play. The chorus is much more tricky, but ok after a bit of practice. For LB this song must have been a piece of cake!:)

Red Rover is a totally different story though...haha....I've had a lot of trouble trying to get my head around some of his interviews where he's described the approach he took in recording the song. I think the fact that he said in rehearsals they were trying to get 4 guitarists to play different parts in perfect time (or else the song would fall apart) sums up how musically complex the song is. I think if he (or anyone else for that matter!) ever tried to do a "one man, one guitar" version of the song, it would require a total musical makeover...i.e. a la Big Love. The way it stands now, I wouldn't even know where to begin if I wanted to play it on my own and make it sound anything like the CD...I think that would be physically impossible. However, as a studio masterpiece...it's still a great song, and extremely original.

He's a master of fingerpicking and a great producer.....so, hey, if ya got it, flaunt it!lol!:)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

I didn't realise this was a moved topic from Chit Chat to here when I first replied, so here's what I posted there. I think it's a very interesting topic.

I've posted in reply to the new version of this thread in the LB forum, but here's a quick reply to this aswell:

That's a very, haha, interesting comment to make..."LB shows a talent that far exceeds people like Eddie Van Halen or Clapton". Are you a guitarist Anthony? I'm just asking because comparing LB to VH or EC is like comparing apples to oranges or grapes, in my opinion. Their styles are extremely different and I think it's just impossible to say that X is better than Y who is better than Z. The only thing those three have in common is that they are all phenomenal guitarists. Just my opinion though.:)

Answering your question, yea, I think SYW is definitely the most guitar-heavy FM album, but it's not LB trying to "outshine" the rest of the band by any means. The reason for it is two-fold: there's no Christine, and Stevie doesn't play anything, so suddenly the guitar becomes VERY obvious. Secondly, remember that this was originally meant to be an LB solo album, with which he had intended to go down the "solo Big Love" route instrumentally i.e. use many layers of guitar/Travis picking to play what would otherwise have to be played by drums/bass/keyboards. I don't think it would have been a good idea to throw those songs away and tone down the guitar just because it became a Fleetwood Mac project. In my opinion the album (despite having a lot of guitar) still allows plenty of room for one to see the amazing talents of the other 3 members of the band. Almost all (i.e. all but one!) of SN's songs on SYW are absolutely amazing, and LB's guitar has only made them even more so. The same can be said about the ever-fantastic rhythm section of JM and MF with regards to both LB's and SN's songs.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Seteca, I agree that comparing Lindsey to those two other guys is apples and oranges.

Lindsey truly seems to be in a category of his own. He's mentioned Scotty Moore occasionally as an influence, but his style seems to be truly his own. This of course is not surprising for someone who takes inspiration simultaneously from Radiohead and Bach.

Re: Is Lindsey Overdoing It?
 

No :cool: :)

Perhaps he is showing off a bit (a la "Here Comes the Sun" from NYE 2001) but I don't think it's gratuitous. I adore "Red Rover" and appreciate and enjoy his elaborately complex approach on SYW.

There is one area where I think LB "overdoes it" - that doggie-paddle thing that he does after he climaxes on his guitar solos live. What the...?!

ROCK STAR!!!!!
 

YEAH!!!!!! WOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Lindsey is a ROCK STAR...so why not PLAY GUITAR like a ROCK STAR!!!!!!

I don't think he's overdoing anything and seteca's right about the guitar moving to the forefront with the keys missing. People who like the mellow, California...i.e Rumours sound are in for a BIG CHANGE and not everybody welcomes that. Oh well...their loss. ;)

Anyways...when Led Zep or whoever do a crazy nutsos guitar solo, are people complainin...probably not. :rolleyes:

Lindsey's doggie paddlin...I'ver read....is an AMAZING SIGHT TO BEHOLD and my eyes cannot WAIT to behold it!!!!!! So what, he beats the guitar to a pulp, bloodies his fingers, breaks strings...GO LINDSEY!!!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!!! *holding up lighter* It's about TIME he got to show off and go crazy!! If HE is enjoying himself, I say...YOU GO BOYEEE!!!! :laugh:

RED ROVER is GREATNESS....AMAZING....PHENOMINAL and so are his Come and Murrow solos! He's underrated enough as it is...and if people wanna pee or go for food, THEY are the ones missing out on the GREATNESS of Lindsey...my eyes aren't leaving him until he leaves the stage. :D

Lindsey many times has talked about how Red Rover was recorded. He said parts were sped up, and part were slowed down. If you listen to the song 100,000,000 times like I have, you can pick out which guitar parts were sped up, and then slowed down at the same time. It's really interesting and I've never heard about that before.

Yes
 

Yes, I think he is going over the top, but it brings him on the other side of that mountain in his approach to songwriting. The diction, flow and rythm of the melodies, in combination with his lifelong search for counterpoints/parts, could never have been reached in songs like RR and Say goodbye without going over that top...:shocked:

Is there anyone outthere who understands what the heck I mean with this?:laugh:


gerald

Hi Gerald,

Yes I really understand what you mean! Lindsey´s manic guitar artistry is really out of this world! He´s wielding that guitar like a wizard holding a magic wand! It´s absolutely amazing and I can never get enough of it. He has climbed a mountain and has come down the other side with all new skills to let enjoy us hardcore fans!

I definitely wish I will get to see him later this or early next year here in Holland, after all it´s been 23 long years since the Tusk tour concert in Rotterdam, June 1980 when he was last here playing. Too bad I didn´t get to see him then, I still regret it to this day, the band was at their peak then. Oh well I guess I was too young back in 1980, only ten!;)

Greetz,

Marcel.

What strikes me about Red Rover is that Lindsey is playing the studio as much as he is playing the guitar. And as we have found out, the song cannot be reproduced live.

So at what point does truly playing the guitar step into the realm of studio trickery? And when it happens, should it still be considered truly playing the guitar?

I was thinking the same thing when I heard a lot of SYW. I mean that any person can even dream up the guitars and most other instruments on SYW is greatness in and of itself. My hat is off to him for that alone.

But, to be able to reproduce it live is trickier. It makes me think of the inability of the "five" to reproduce Stevie's very complex studio Sara as well as Gypsy. Yet, those songs come off okay musically if not often great "live" even in the scaled down versions. Note: the complex layering of vocals, esp. in Sara, is also a problem live - but that is another thread!! :cool:

But, then from what I understand Red Rover and, perhaps, Murrow are so complex that unless he did them "unplugged" a la Big Love, they would not translate well. But then again, Say Goodbye is great in concert. So, I tend to think that although he loves to use the studio gadgets for all they are worth, he also seems to be able to reproduce that same sound in one form or another.

I hope that made sense! :laugh:

I've thought about this, too. I guess it depends on what you mean when you're asking about the guitar parts in songs - if you're referring to what is technically played on a guitar, that would cover both manipulated and natural gutair parts. If you're referring to the ones that are not manipulated in any way, that's another thing.

Does it take away from Lindsey's prestige as a guitarist that so many of his guitar parts on SYW are manipulated in some way?

I don't think so. You just start thinking in terms of his genius as a studio wiz. He's innovative. What he asked Rick Turner to do with his nylon-string Chet Atkins guitars was a bit of a technical breakthrough in the guitar world.

So he's an innovator and mad genius of sorts. And I think that tends to detract from his guitar playing outside our circle. Remember how we all get frustrated when he doesn't make the best-of lists for guitarists? It may be that all the studio gimmickry has hurt the overall perception of him as a guitarist.

Very interesting topic. I don't think the fact that so many of the SYW guitar parts are manipulated takes any prestige away from LB, but only because he has given some incredible live performances. If he had never performed, for example, "Big Love" or "NGBA" live, people would wonder just how much of the great guitaring on his albums is due to him and how much is due to machines. In such a case (where a guitarist produces brilliant parts in the studio but fails to reproduce them live, or produce live alternate versions which are just as good or better) that does take a lot of prestige from that person as a guitarist, but not as a musician. If somebody can take simple guitar recordings and manipulate them using many machines in the studio to make them sound like a fantastic piece of music, then that person is a very talented musician, regardless of how good a guitarist he is.

When it comes to these "best guitarists" lists, what annoys me is that they usually just name those people who have famous guitar solos, or even worse, people who are simply famous. There is no mention of a single famous classical guitarist, even though their technical abililty and fluidity far exceeds that of many, if not everyone, on these lists.

On a list of say, 100 greatest non-classical guitarists, I think LB should be on it, and at a very good position, because of his ability as an absolute genius fingerpicking guitarist and those songs which are a direct result of his style (e.g. NGBA, Big Love, Say Goodbye). LB's "electric solos" are great (e.g. ISA, Come, TITN, Murrow) but they're nothing special (and I'm talking purely technically here, not emotionally) when compared to the solos of others, and don't really merit a very high position on such lists.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Hmmmmmmmmm
 

No, I think Tango in the Night, Go Your Own Way, Book of Love, and Countdown are all much better electric solos than ANYTHING Van Halen or Eric Clapton have ever done. Both because of the fingerpicking style and also because of their construction and listening pleasure. I don't hear similar sound pleasure in solos by VH, EC or even Stevie Ray Vaughn. Although the guy in Huey Lewis and the News (I forget his name--Chris Hayes maybe?) did a great job with the solo on I Want a New Drug.

Lindsey's guitar work at the end of Peacekeeper reminds me of Elton John's piano work in the background on George Harrison's Cloud 9 album songs Fish on the Sand, Wreck of the Hesperas, and Devil's Radio.

Chris

You mention 3 things here:

1) "Fingerpicking style": How is this relevant to these 4 songs? They can easily be played by any half-decent guitarist using a pick.

2) "Construction": I'm not sure what you mean by this but if you think those solos are more technically advanced than "Crossroads" or "Eruption", then I'm extremely surprised, but it's all a matter of opinion of course.:)

3) "Listening pleasure". Absolutely agree with you on this. LB's solos speak to me and move me emotionally more than anyone else's. He's my favourite guitarist and my favourite musician. However, my previous post was strictly about technical proficiency of electric solos only. I specifically said, "not emotionally."

I just can't understand how LB can be compared to Eric Clapton or Eddie Van Halen. These people's styles could not possibly be any more different.

Incidently, yesterday I was looking through some of these "best guitarists" lists via Google and the only list I could find which had Lindsey Buckingham in it had "NGBA" noted as his best guitar work, which I completely agree with.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Sure Red Rover has the tape speed elements, but the question of 'playing the studio' isn't really an issue when you consider that NGBA on Rumours has itself at least two guitar tracks playing simultaneously.
But that sound was definitely geared to emulate in the best possible way the sound of someone playing a acoustic guitar (in the tradition of Landslide, but obviously in much brighter, sharper colours).
With Red Rover, you have to ask - is Lindsey at any time intending to sound like he is sitting there with one acoutstic guitar? Given the different frames of reference, I don't think he went over the top becuase he was aiming for something altogther different.

Rather than using the guitars in the arrangement like a fireside singsong, it's just his weapon of choice to create certain rhythms, textures, 'colours' as he would say (a`la the painting metaphor). Other people use synthesizers and techno stuff.

That's why I get such a kick out of Red Rover/Say Goodbye/Try For The Sun/Big Love (The Dance) ... it's something totally unique... at least in the pop-rock arena.

What actual instruments do you think LB used for RR? One guitar and a drum machine it sounds like, but he manipulates the sounds so it sounds like a mini orchestra.

Do you think it is just a regular acoustic or his Renessiance Turner?

It's only layers & layers of acoustic guitars...not a drum to be found. He mentioned in an interview (can't recall WHICH one) that "Red Rover" is an example of some of his "new" techniques...getting a more "percussive" type sound from his guitars. Yep, "Try For The Sun" uses the same "trick".

Really DOES sound like there's a snare drum (being played with brushes) in the background, but listening closely, sure 'nuff, it is guitar.

LB's opened my eyes on SYW in a way he never had before. Red Rover is a masterpiece.

No you can def. hear drums, especially bass drum sporatically.

Is Lindsey overdoing it? It all depends how yopu veiw him today. I think he sees this tour as quite pssibly the last chance to tour with Fleetwood Mac because of the age thing,and is just making the most of everything and playing his heart out. From the studio to the stage I think he is doing his best to give back to the fans his gratitude for years of backing him and FM, the only way he knows how. Through his guitar. His style and his talent puts him in an altogether different class from SRV and Clapton, not that he is better or worse, just different. He has grown musically over the years and is now one of the greats. JMO

very good point

I don't think so at all. I think Lindsey is way ahead of his time. I guess I compare his manipulation of his guitar playing to how directors in a film, such as "The Matrix" use special effects. Everyone knows that those stunts could not be reproduced live on stage in front of our eyes, but it doesn't make those special effects any less amazing. They are a thrill to watch, just as Lindsey's guitar effects are a thrill to listen to. :nod:

Just MHO! :)

Lady Quicksilver

Hey Lady Q - that's a brilliant analogy to Matrix 'bullet time' photography! Makes me imagine a video for Red Rover - with Lindsey playing guitar in bullet time! If only... :nod:

There's not a drum on the track. (per an interview with Lindsey, forget exactly WHICH magazine, though) If you hear one, it is an illusion created by Lindsey's guitar and studio techniques.


Which brings me 'round to the theme of this whole thread:

People bitch when Lindsey isn't listed on all those "World's Greatest Guitarist" polls. Then he starts playing in a style that would get him recognition that way and people STILL bitch. There's just no pleasing some people, is there.

Yes, you can "hear" drums, but drums are not being played. The percussive sound is coming strictly from Lindsey's guitar.

That is truly amazing!!! Although I always thought: what a strange "moving" bassdrumsound. I pictured him recording sloppy skinned bassdrums and then playing around with the pitch for controlling recordingspeed etc. But with a guitar! Any ideas on how he does that?
Everytime I read something new It's more amazing. What an artist.....

I can hear the thump of a bass drum. Maybe he just used that cause I don't know how he could of gotten that sound from a plating a guitar.

He could be thumping the guitar with his hand. My friend who plays classical bass is also the drummer of the band, by using his hands to play both bass and drums upon his bass (obviously no symbols). Just speculation...

I agree with chiliD and CarneVaca, in that all the sound is coming strictly from guitars only. The song consists of MANY guitar layers, many of which have been processed, sped up, slowed down, etc etc....but I'm very sure that it is only guitars. Compared to LB I am very limited in what equipment I have at home, and yet I can produce some recordings which are ONLY mixes of electric and acoustic guitar in which you can hear drum sounds that don't actually exist. Red Rover is very rich in what LB phrased perfectly as "negative space." What some people are hearing as a "bass drum" sounds to me like a guitar track (possibly slowed down and) fed through some sort of slow tremolo effect (or equivalent).

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Getting percussive sounds out of an acoustic guitar is no great mystery. When plugged into a decent PA system I can get a nice chop when playing certain rhythms. When you manipulate guitar sounds in the studio, or even with some decent software on your computer, say Cool Edit, you can make a guitar sound like other things. Listen to "Hold Me," and you'll hear a guitar that sounds like a cello. That was no accident.

I would guess that bass drum sound is coming from him striking a bass note that through some kind of echo or tremolo, or whatever, sounds like a drum. Speeding up the tape would also produce a more percussive sound on single notes.

Let's keep in mind that Lindsey said there are no drums on "Red Rover." I don't think he would lie about that.

Thanks guys for the info. I am hearing this song in a new light now that know it is all done with guitar.

BUT, there are parts in the song that has like a quik mini drum roll. I dunno how he would git that...lol.

Man, this stew is getting pretty thick. Time to stir the kettle.
Has anyone read the article in this months issue of Rolling Stone about the live FM concert? I have. I think it sums up what most of us have been trying to say and still be polite. Check it out and let me know what you think.

RS. pg. 90

Three words: Rolling Stone sucks.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I was thinking how to say it - but . . . .

:cool:

It’s a funny topic to me, Anthony. It’s interesting to read about some of the raised eyebrows on this tour about Lindsey’s performance style…with a range of conclusions (positive and negative) drawn about what it means.... And I guess, overall, I just think a lot of people haven't seen him in a while.

Sure, it’s apparent he’s interacting more with fans from the stage, which is perhaps a direct result of his being a happier person and an enthusiastic participant in this project. On the whole though, I’m not sure Lindsey is doing anything outrageously different from what he’s done in the past.

Back in 1980, Rolling Stone reviewed the Mac’s final night on the Tusk tour. It’s interesting to read this right now amidst some of the reviews of this tour:

It was Buckingham's show at the beginning of the tour, and, if anything, he was more commanding at the end. Dressed in a ten-gallon hat, boots and a white V-neck T-shirt of Beverly Hills cowboy, he was simply spectacular onstage. He dominated the band as completely as any human being could ever dominate drummer Mick Fleetwood and bassist John McVie - one of the most cohesive and potent rhythm sections in rock.

Buckingham continually battered at the constraints of arena-level rock, both in the quirky, brave songs from Tusk and in his explosive solos. A classic rock & roll spastic, he released enormous amounts of energy with a series of violent, herky-jerky antics. And when he flailed across the stage in "It's Not That Funny" or "What Makes You Think You're The One," it was not a New Wave affectation (as it occasionally seemed at the beginning of the tour); it was simply the only way he knew to exorcise a few bothersome demons.

Steve Pond loved this performance when he reviewed it. The current RS reviewer who saw the recent NJ show and seemed to see some similar things didn’t love it. Lindsey himself seems to be performing with much of the same abandon he did back then and it’s just left up to each person in the audience to take from it what they will.

Personally, I think those going to the shows to see Fleetwood Mac perform are seeing what this incarnation of Fleetwood Mac (with and without Christine) has always been – a band of individuals with vastly different personalities and styles that rub up against each other – creating friction and warmth. The edges are smoother on the albums, but I think the albums present that intriguing mixture as well.

I love that last paragraph, Les!
I hope you don't mind if I steal it for my signature. :D

Good point Les. Lindsey's playing is phenominal. "I'm so afraid" is listed as my favorite FM song in my profile. His depth of emotion in his playing shines even brighter on stage rather than the studio. The albums from the '70's sounded great, but even better live, on stage due to Lindsey's artistic freedom found mainly in front of a live audience. I'm sure that was one of the reasons why he pursued a solo career. He rocked all by himself. But that's also my point now. In the recent RS article, didn't it state that it took two more guitarists on stage to maintain the sound integrity from the album?
I think the SYW album would have had a better sense of balance to it if access to the mixing table had been a little more limited.
Whatcha think?:]