Mick's book-what's the problem?
 

Hi people! I haven't been a fan for nearly as long as a lot of you so I was just wondering something... How come some of you tend to dismiss Mick's book as not very good or just plain inaccurate? I read it and enjoyed it very much. Now granted , I found a few relatively small mistakes also. For example, when he says they toured for Mirage during the summer of '82. He was actually kinda close with this because it technically began in late summer. I think that he did a pretty good job considering all of the substance abuse at the time . Please tell me what you guys think.

I think Mick's book is definitely an interesting read. As far as how accurate it is, who knows? I do know that the rest of the band hated it, especially Lindsey. I do think that Stevie and Chris came off looking pretty good but that John and especially Lindsey did not. No one was exactly clear headed during those years from all of the drugs & alcohol, so they probably remember things differently. I still tend to think of the book as being fairly close to the truth.

You know I've always wondered the same thing...I've heard several people completely dismiss the book...and I have never known why....so I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't know why. I found it to be an entertaining read also...though it did paint Lindsey in not so good a light, IMO...hahah..I mean after reading some of the parts I wanted to kick his ass mysefl lol...but I got over it....anyway....someone once told me that Mick admitted that he might have "expanded upon" the truth a little...but I've never heard this directly from Mick or any Mac member...anyone know anything about that?

The problem, if it should be called that, is that it's just hard to know what's true and what isn't.

There are parts of it that are quite entertaining. There are also aspects of the book that are sort of riddled with errors, so it becomes somewhat difficult to know where you draw the line with what was true and what wasn't. I'd like to rely on my personal judgment, but since I wasn't there, I can't. I have to look at the reactions of the other members and I have to look at what I do know to be true or false, based on other things written about the band, in order to try to get a perspective on the whole thing.

You can't help but take into account Mick's circumstances when he wrote it (financial problems, bitterness over Lindsey's departure, drug problems, etc.).

The "problems" --

There are many, many incorrect dates, times, timeframes, details listed in the book.

Peter and some of his biographers contradict some of the things written about Green and the Green era.

Obviously Lindsey has expressed discontent about how Mick chose to characterize him and has flatly denied parts of it (Mick's account of how Lindsey left the band, specifically). He says he was very hurt by the book, but that Mick has apologized to him in private for some of it.

John seemed miffed at what he said was Mick's purposely excluding the unkind stories he could have told about the ladies so that they seemed a little too good to be true, but not giving the guys any such benefit.

I don't know if I've ever heard a direct reaction from Christine about it. I guess you can take her silence on the subject however you'd like to take it.

Stevie has had several reactions to it. Before it was published she threatened to sue him if he slandered her. Right after it was published, she sort of jokingly promoted the book for him from the stage (BTM tour), calling him a "best selling author." (She later said she hadn't even read it at that point and was angry that she'd done that for him.) In the 91/92 period, she gave at least a few interviews where she was very angry about it. Her current reaction is to sort of back away from it and say that she knows what she lived and isn't interested in reading Mick's version of it. Her telling of the events of the night Lindsey left the band do certainly leave quite a different impression of that night than Mick's version does.

Mick says he had a great time writing it. Bob Welch reported that he thought the book was fairly accurate about his tenure in the group. I believe Bob Brunning likes it. Those are things in its favor.

I have a few problems with it personally, but one thing that I find most disappointing about it is that there are whole passages that aren't drawn from Mick's memory at all. Instead, they're passages copied almost verbatim from some of the articles written about the band in the 70s/80s. I'm still a little puzzled how Mick and/or Stephen Davis avoided plagiarism charges with some of those. But so then you wonder -- why did they feel the need to copy those passages? Couldn't Mick remember enough on his own to make it interesting? And if not, then what else in the book has maybe been padded with "extra" details to make the stories seem more complete than Mick's memory could really provide?

So...it's just sort of a guessing game. Mick evidently conveyed the story that he wanted to tell at the time and it should be seen as "the truth" from his personal perspective. If the book was written by John or Lindsey or Christine or Stevie or Peter or the Bobs, etc., there are probably some passages that would be similar and some passages that would be vastly different.

When one decides to write a book divulging his version of others' personal travails, it opens a can of worms. Those others who are having stories told on them that they'd rather not tell, or that they'd tell quite differently, or that they say didn't happen at all, are never going to be very happy about it.

Speaking of which, what DOES Lindsey call Mick in that song they were talking about on Behind the Music? I sound like an ignoramus, but I don't know much about Lindsey's solo stuff. When they play it on Behind the Music, the bleep out what he says, something like "He's the rock *BEEP*." What's he calling Mick?

The bleep...
 

It was "rock cock", but VH1 bleeped it out. I laughed every time! :lol:

My own personal thing about the book is that the only real "new" thing about the book at the time was the Stevie & Mick affair which (to my knowledge) had not been previously printed elsewhere (though I may be wrong on this as I don't really get in to all of the personal stuff about the Mac story).

So this was another case that I personally think Mick used the "sales tactic" of plugs to the effect of "This book is chock full of facts about the Mac such as an affair Mick had with Stevie Nicks" to get people to think "Wow, this will tell us everything!" when all along you get done with the book thinking "Geez, the only thing I didn't already know was the thing they said in the ad about their affair".

None of this probably matters now, but my own perception of it was that it was annoying to fans at the time it was released that fans were "lied to" about the wealth of information they were going to find out about the band if they bought this book when all along we found out the only info we didn't know about previously in the ads etc. for the book which were to "tease" us in to buying it. This is one of the many reasons why many of us are "suspicious" of Mick's (or whoever) milking the FM enterprise for all it's worth etc. but I will NOT go there anymore! I mean OK, I realize in this case it could've been the publisher that wanted to use this "technique" to get books sold but MY feeling was if Mick was going to tell about the affair and make others "look/come off bad" anyways and if he really wanted the book to be "useful" to fans etc. then surely he could've included more ORIGINAL material and "tell more truths" rather than just have it be a "Rolling Stone magazine FM articles Greatest Hits" package so to speak. I'm not saying anyone else should think this way, it's just how I think about it.

I personally would've preferred more talk about the recordings etc. as I'm a discography nut (for those of you that don't know me! :) ) and I don't know/care about all of the personal stuff in the book and all that so that was my main dissapointment but all this is JMHO anyways. I sure hope no one has been offended here. I'm simply stating my opinion to give further insight to the person that asked the "what's the problem" question that started this thread. I'm not saying anyone should/has to agree with me on this or anything, this is just a statement of an opinion of mine. Nothing more, nothing less. OK? Thanks for your time and I hope this was of some help/interest to the thread starter. :)

John

Funny thing about that book: I remember devouring it when it first came out, then going away with such bad taste in my mouth about Mick, even though the slant of the book was clearly intended to paint Lindsey as the villain. It's been a while, but among the things I remember are Mick's endless praise for Stevie. He mentions that her songs on Mirage and Tango, though left over from solo projects, were brilliant. Aside from Gypsy, there is no brilliance in those tracks at all.

Mick seems to put down Lindsey's contribution, accusing him of being jealous of Christine and Stevie for having written most of the hits. Yet, ironically the book was released just as Behind the Mask was stumbling through the charts. You think that man might have been able to put two and two together -- that the Mac without Lindsey at that point was simply a vain commercial exercise devoid of any real artistry. Gee, they had to get two guitarists to replace Lindsey! Don't get me wrong, I even like a couple of songs on that album, though I find that effort as a whole to be pretty mediocre. By then, I really couldn't listen to Stevie's voice any more, but that had started with her contributions in Tango.

Mick admits he was "disloyal" in writing the book, even though some very palpable tension remains between him and Lindsey about that time period. It appears that Mick flat out lied about Lindsey's departure from the band, accusing Lindsey of striking Stevie. Maybe he did, and that's why I say "appears." Yet, if I'm not mistaken, Stevie has said she struck Lindsey. Whatever. There was probably a little shoving. Mick probably should have kept that episode to himself, rather than using his rather murky recollection to put it in a book, the proceeds of which he reportedly snorted away.

Mick is a distasteful guy. When he gets on TV he is almost endearing, but then he invariably says something infinitely stupid that makes me cringe. I get embarrassed for him. Lindsey, on the other hand, comes across as somewhat humble and insecure, though occasionally a flash of immodest self-recognition of his talent and genius pokes through as, for instance, when he says he was the one who always knew exactly what to do with Stevie's songs.

Lindsey showed some real class through that whole episode. Rather than hitting the talk show circuit, he merely addressed it through his art. And he did it elegantly, couching the obvious anger in the song with an unlikely arrangement and leaving enough ambiguity so that if you weren't familiar with the story, you wouldn't know who he was bashing. Think of how Lennon treated McCartney in How Do You Sleep. No ambiguity there.

Mick's book actually points to the fundamental problem with the Mac. Fleetwood Mac has become more of a story than a band. Problem is the story has become rather old and dull. This band invented "Behind the Music" before VH1 ever thought of the concept. Now if they would only give us some music, instead of the story behind the story of the story, I'd be much happier about the whole thing.

Sorcerer386 - You need to read the lyrics, or even better, listen to Lindsey's song "Wrong" from OOTC. It will explain a tidbit or two so you won't feel left out of the joke!

In one part he says:

Did I see another
Piggy in the middle
Piggy on the cover

That's very interesting, considering the Chap in Mick's book where he chronicled the affiar with Stevie was called "Piggy in the Middle"

I also love what in my opinion are a few more digs at Mick:

The line about "Putting on the Hits" seems to be a jab at Mick for appearing on that lame-o 80's show as a judge, like, "Man, did you need money THAT bad?" that makes me chuckle everytime!

And "advance was spent some time ago" and "agent's on the phone" seem to be pointing out he only wrote the book for money.

And "the man just got it wrong" well, that self-explanatory, and Lindsey is making his feelings perfectly known here!

One more thing, I have always interpreted the "young Mr. Rock Cock, where do you belong?" part, as Lindsey refering to himself. He wasn't sure where he fit in in the rock world of the early 90's, and working on OOTC seemed to be an excercise in helping him forge his place. We all know he wanted be known for more than his looks, but at the same time, he was well aware that he and Stevie increased the eye appeal of the band a great deal when they joined.

Just my take on it, BTW, I found the book entertaining, I bought it for a couple of bucks off ebay, but I did take lots of it with a grain of salt, mainly when I realized some of the timelines were incorrect.

There is an interview where Stevie or Lindsey one talks about Stevie apologizing to Lindsey for what Mick wrote about him, and Lindsey was evidently very touched at her reaction, saying he couldn't believe she was apologizing to him for what Mick wrote. Maybe the book is one of the things that maybe even helped a little with the healing. At least it maybe helped get them talking again.

The book is just one of those things you file away with other Mac history and, like the rest of it, you have to look at it in the correct context.

-Sharon

{sigh} DO we NEED to get into THIS discussion again?

Let me run through it again for those who missed it:

Lindsey wasn't replaced by two guitarists. Billy replaced him vocally and only HAPPENED to play guitar, Rick replaced him guitar-wise and only HAPPENED to be able to sing well, too (plus, he had a vast knowledge of the Peter Green material). They just ASKED Billy to join first and Billy said that he didn't feel he was proficient enough guitar-wise so he recommened they add Rick, who Billy had been working with at the time. Had they asked Rick first, I doubt there would've been a need to add Billy (sorry, Michelle).

Had they ALLOWED Billy & Rick full creative license, I think we would've seen a different product than "Behind The Mask". Just look at both Billy & Rick's subsequent solo albums to see that they had strong "Mac-ish" material to add, but neither were allowed such room within the band. I don't know why new personnel to Fleetwood Mac in prior incarnations were allowed such leeway and in post-1988 incarnations, they weren't...that I blame on Mick, John & Christine; NOT on the newly added writers (Billy, Rick, and subsequently Dave Mason & Bekka Bramlett)

Thanks for posting that ChiliD. I hadn't realised the reasons behind 2 people joining the band to 'replace' Lindsey.

Pip

So would you use Stevie's account on " Rocks Family Tree" from London tv as an accurate account of how Lindsey left the band??

Stevie seems very angry as she kind of spits out the story, and I always found that account to be totally true...only because shes standing there saying it...does everyone else think that to be what really happened even though it was said through gritted teeth???

Janet, What did she say?
Could you just parphrase for us?

Stevie has recounted the events of that night for the camera or in interviews on a few occasions now and it comes out a little differently each time. I'm not sure what the exact truth is. The story shifts, no matter who is telling it. That's part of the difficulty.

She seemed quite angry through most of Rock Family Trees, so I don't know how or if that affected her story-telling. She also says, in that interview, that the rest of the band viewed her as a bimbo from day one and never wanted her. That's in direct opposition to the many interviews she's given when she's said that they were great to her from day one, even though they originally were only looking to add Lindsey. So...the truth is out there...it's just hard to know where exactly it is.

I personally don't think it lies solely with one member.

Well, I guess I will just file that under my "in context" section with Mick's book.

She had alot of issues at that time, and she was angry, and I sense there there had not been enough time and distance yet for her to get any real perspective on anything....
You know when you are fresh out of a bad situation you tend to go back over it and rehash it in your mind reading all kinds of things into people's words and actions that aren't really there. They probably all suffered from that type of reaction. It seems time and distance helped, so like I said, into the "in context of Stevie being an emotional mess at the time" section that goes, too!

Thanks!
-Sharon

I knew it was coming!
 

Hahaha!

I was wondering how long it would take chiliD to reply to the two guitarist replacement thing.

Then I scroll down the page and there it is! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I have never heard any of Stevie's (or Lindsey's) account of what happened the night he left the band. I would love to hear if anyone feels like recapping.

I really like Billy and Rick (but of course, nothing beats Lindsey and Stevie with the Mac, in my opinion). And I've seen some live concert footage before of FM where there is another guitar player on the side of the stage playing with Lindsey. So I just thought that is why they got two guitar players. ??? I liked Behind The Mask. But ya, I missed Lindsey.

I can't wait to read Stevie's book someday, and hope that Lindsey writes one too. Too bad Mick was the only one who has. Seems like he enjoyed bragging about his affair with Stevie and putting Lindsey down. I'll never understand what she saw in him. But then again - I don't know the guy. Just he always seems so boring in all the interviews I've seen him in, and ones I've heard on tape.

Mick's book
 

I read it all in one sit, soon as it came out. I had to borrow it from a friend to get it. Since then I got my own copy reduced from Amazon I think.

It's a good read. As you learn more about the band from other sources you will find there are contradictory stories about some of the events. There are times when Mick has his own version of reality=:-)

Rock Family Trees Section on LB quitting..............
 

Mick Fleetwood:
The album came out…and the rest of us go…..we gotta go out on the road….we’ve just made a good album….are we going to not push it….and he agreed to do it against his better judgement….and that all went wrong…..we’d set the whole tour up and suddenly….boom…I can’t do this….I can’t face it…(Mick shakes his head).

Stevie Nicks:
Because of that guilt I’ve always had about not leaving Fleetwood Mac….I flew out of the couch and across the room to seriously attack him….and I did….I mean…I’m not real scary….but I can be fairly ferocious…..and I grabbed him….y’know………..which almost got me killed.

John McVie:
It got ugly…..physically ugly….(John mimes strangling someone).(more from the “Big Love” video is shown here)

Stevie Nicks:
He ended up chasing me all the way out of Christine’s maze like house and down the street….and back up the street….and he threw me against the car…and I screamed horrible obscenities at him……and I thought he was going to kill me……and I think he probably thought he was going to kill me too…..and I said to him…if the rest of the people in the band don’t get you….my family will….my dad and my brother will kill you.

John McVie:
And I said to Lindsey…why don’t you just leave……he left……but what I meant was why don’t you just leave the room (laughs)……true (more laughter).

(the end section of “Big Love” is now shown……

Stevie Nicks:
Every single one of the guitar players had reached the point where they said….I can’t do this anymore…..Chris and I have way too much of a practical side to ever say that (a ghost of a smile on Stevie’s face here)….but the guys are like tenuous…..(makes a so-so gesture with her hand)…always.

Narrative:
Lindsey Buckingham left to pursue a solo career. The previous guitarist, Bob Welch, on leaving the band, had considerable success with his album “French Kiss”. Several more records followed, but by the end of the eighties Bob found himself becoming ever more detached from everyday life.



Don't know how true it is, but Stevie's account is a little different then Mick's.

What happened that day
 

I remember on the Rock Family Trees thing, Stevie seemed to be quite evil and vindictive, which I put down to the medication thing, this was filmed around late '94 early '95 I think so this would probably be why.
Anyway, John McVie said "it got ugly" and gestured with his hands showing someone appearing to strangle the other with hands locked around throat.
I remember Stevie saying "If the rest of the band don't get you, Lindsey, my father and my brother will kill you" and she looked bitter but honest when she said it.
Later in the show John said, this is from memory so excuse me if it's not word for word, "I read in the press that we, Mick and I are her enemies now and that everything Fleetwood Mac has ever done to her is bad, which is disapointing and completely untrue"

:wavey:

Beat me to it Neil!

Thanks for giving a "Proper" account though, mine was all a distant memory :laugh:

The full article of the transcription of Rock Family Trees can be found in the articles section of http://www.fleetwoodmac-uk.com

Thanks for posting that.
I needed to refresh my memory on it!

OK, so maybe it was a little more than shoving. However, and I'm trying to picture this here, she's running out of this maze-like house and Lindsey gives chase. He catches up with her and nearly kills her. She threatens to send the Mafia after him or something like that. Meanwhile, the rest of the band is just sitting around the living room (embellishment:) having margaritas!? Did Stevie exaggerate? What do you think?

As for the two guitarists replacing Lindsey discussion. Thanks for clarifying, Chill-man, but the fact remains that it took two humans to replace our beloved Lindsey. And by the way, when you say Rick and Billy were restrained from using their full-blown creativity, surely you are not suggesting their stuff could have been as good as Lindsey's? And let's just fantasize that it was as good, it would have still taken TWO of them to replace one Lindsey!

Thanks for all the info. I'll remember to take it all with a grain of salt - lol!

Now, I really think Rick alone could have "replaced" Lindsey. But Billy is so cute too, why leave him out. ;) But really, I say "replaced" in quotes because no one can really replace any of the Rumours five, atleast to me. Someone had to fill in and play guitar, ya. But still, no matter how many guitarist and singers they got, Lindsey's presence would leave a hole in the band. Just my opinion- that's all. I loved Rick and Billy (and loved Rick touring with Stevie). But still... Same with Stevie. I did not bother with any of the Becka FM stuff. And now without Christine, that's a bummer too. But since Stevie and Lindsey have always been my favorites, I will still be happy. And since I always used to wish for another Buckingham/Nicks album ever since my teens when I fist got a hold of that, I guess this is the closest I am going to get.

Unlike MOST of the people on this board, I don't buy into the myth that Lindsey & Stevie are the "be all, end all" of Fleetwood Mac. They just happened to LUCK into being there at the time the band became WILDLY popular. All the groundwork for that had been laid down by all the previous incarnations...and considering all the stuff that went down the 14 months before they joined, they were damned lucky there even WAS a Fleetwood Mac to join at all.

The way I see it, Rick & Billy didn't REPLACE Lindsey...there was a vacancy, they were asked to fill the vacancy.

Let's say I finally give in to the "common" logic of the "It took 2 people to 'replace' Lindsey" theory. It could also be used in another way:

It took 2 people to replace Bob Welch. Chew on THAT one for a while. ;)


:blob2: :blob2:

Thanks for responding guys. The only way we would all know what "really" happened would be to be a fly on the wall when all of this was going on. Even when Stevie releases her book someday this will be just one more version of events.

are you suggesting that fleetwood mac's success had nothing to do with lindsey and stevie's contribution?
coz if you are, it's one of the most bizarre statements i ever read here.:confused:

I don't buy into the myth that Lindsey and Stevie are the "be all and end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Only Lindsey, as far as I am concerned.

As far as luck, I'd say that is not giving him enough credit, but hey, ChilliD, if that's what you think, that's what you think. Stevie, however, certainly got lucky. She only joined the band because Lindsey insisted that Mick take them as a package. And that's why it took the two of them to replace Bob Welch. But then again, except for a couple of songs, the Welch period interests me about as much as the post-Lindsey period, which is to say not at all.

They lucked into that enormous wave of momentum and popularity that was breaking after the fake band fiasco and Bob Welch left? ;)

If you're tired of the constant focus on two members of the band who aren't your particular favorite, that's one thing. But let's not pretend Lindsey's and Stevie's contributions amount to nothing but riding the reputations of former members. They changed the sound of the band as completely as Bob changed the sound of the band when he joined. People responded to that change and embraced it. Lindsey and Stevie aren't the be all end all, but the band didn't "happen" to become wildly popular in spite of them either.

If we're talking "be-all-and-end-all" of the band...
 

...I'd say it is and always HAS been the percussion section.

Whadd'ya say, Chill-man?:blob2: :blob2: :blob2: :blob2:

Stevie has had a very popular solo career compared to all of them, so not to say that makes her better or anything, but she seemed more in demand. So I would think she had atleast a *little* something to do about FM's success. As much as there are people that don't like her, there seems to be a hundred times more who do. I don't even see how that can be argued, even if you *don't* like her. She was pretty darn big in her day, and isn't exactly nothing these days either.

Very, VERY good point...and, the bass player. "You're a monster, John!" ;)

No, I'm not...but, when they joined, there were some factors that led to their "success" already in motion. Read on.

Actually, "enormous" is your word; I never used that. That there WAS a Fleetwood Mac for Lindsey & Stevie to join was due IN A LARGE WAY to Bob Welch keeping the band a viable entity. The spin doctoring he had to do with the record company to trust them. Plus, the litigation surrounding that whole "fake band" issue WAS big news. That the band survived and were able to tour, release an album, do TV show appearances, live radio broadcasts, etc, DID get the Fleetwood Mac name "out there" once again...that people didn't buy the album in droves wasn't the issue...that Fleetwood Mac was for all intents & purposes the band members themselves and not a "name" owned by some disinterested manager was. There was a "Buzz" starting to happen about the band just when Welch burnt out and left. Stevie & Lindsey entered just at the right time. THAT's what I'm saying. Sure, they took the ball and ran with it...but, they were lucky that there was a band to join.


(Similar situtation with Billy & Rick...Billy brought Rick along because Billy was insecure about his own guitar playing. They came in as "a package", as well.)

And, maybe, just maybe, Lindsey SAID that to Mick thinking that Mick would say, "oh, ok, never mind". That it would be Lindsey's way of saying "thanks for asking, but we're doing our thing". It took Stevie's "buying all their albums listening to them backwards & forwards; hearing a common thread in the music" and seemingly CONVINCING Lindsey that they would have something to add to the band; if nothing else, they'd have an INCOME at what they wanted to be doing for a time anyway. But, instead, not only did they make a wage, they hit the friggin' LOTTERY.
Lindsey's never REALLY been happy being in Fleetwood Mac since he joined (it seems)...from day one, it's seemed as though he was trying to either get kicked out or quit. Read Welch's Q&A for his account of he & Lindsey having the conversation of how unhappy Lindsey was being in the band...and that was during the RUMOURS sessions...things got worse when Lindsey wanted to "do his thing" for "Tusk". Mick even told him (Paraphrasing from Mick's book) "Look, Lindsey, either you're in the band or you're not, you can't have it both ways". Lindsey again seemed to him & haw over really wanting to set aside his solo project for "Tango In The Night", as well.

In some ways, yes, others, no. Listen to "She's Changing Me" from "Heroes"...not a big difference between the feel of that song and the feel of the entire white album....it would've fit seamlessly on that album. Lindsey's natural sound had a similar feel to what Danny Kirwan had 3-4 years earlier, "Sands Of Time", "Child Of Mine", "Dust" in retrospect all have a very Lindsey feel to them. I'm not saying that Lindsey & Stevie DIDN'T add to the Fleetwood Mac sound...they were a perfect fit for the time. But, to say that they ARE Fleetwood Mac and that any other incarnation is invalid is wrong...just wrong.

Can't argue with that, but let's not forget Bob Welch's "French Kiss" album had 4 hit singles, as well...and "Three Hearts" had two, "The Other One" also had a couple. Actually, "French Kiss" alone had more "hits" than all of Lindsey's solo albums combined.


Bottom line, folks...if I was REALLY that turned off by, or REALLY had that little respect for the contributions of Lindsey & Stevie to Fleetwood Mac, would I even STILL be the Fleetwood Mac fan I AM??? :shrug: JEEEEZ, SOMEBODY's gotta keep rattling the cage when the "offerings to the "God & Goddess of Fleetwood Mac" get too far over-the-top! ;)

:blob2: :blob2: :blob2:

NEW TITLES!!
 

Quote:

"God & Goddess of Fleetwood Mac"

Well, at least you got the titles right, chilid! LMAO! :blob1::blob2: I'm just ribbin ya. *wink*

Wow...
 

this thread makes for a great reading...It's seems kinda familiar to me because on another NG about another band, There is the almost the same arguments about in support of the "former" members of the band versus the "current" members of this band...

Anyways, If anyone asks me what my opinion of who/what made the 'Mac famous (Even after reading Mick's book) I will quote that famous verse of Ozzy's "Don't look at me for answers...Dont ask me, I Don't know...", Brian

PS-"I'd say it is and always HAS been the percussion section."

"Very, VERY good point...and, the bass player. "You're a monster, John!"...I have to agree, Us Bassist's seem to stick to our own kind..hehehehe

Fleetwood Mac's Bitch Goddess Supremo
 

Borrowing from Updike there for my title ....

Lindsey's quite a guy, as is Peter. Brilliant!

John, too. What a bassist!

Danny? Great tone on that ax!

Mr. Mick -- that dynamo's sound does the trick for me!

Stevie? Those old "Rhiannons" -- gotta love it!

As for Welch, bodacious!

Jeremy really rocked, God knows!

Rick & Billy jammed!

Bekka, what a babe!

Dave -- great singing voice!

But who was the incomparable Bitch Goddess Supremo who, before playing "Songbird" every night, used to tell everyone to drive home safely?

You can't get any cooler or greater than that. She's it.

Too cool for school, Davey
 

Too cool for school! :nod: :nod: :nod:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiliD
Actually, "enormous" is your word; I never used that. That there WAS a Fleetwood Mac for Lindsey & Stevie to join was due IN A LARGE WAY to Bob Welch keeping the band a viable entity.

And I like Bob Welch very much. I never argued that he didn't keep the band a viable entity. He deserves all the credit in the world for it.

You're right, "enormous" was my word. Your words were that Stevie and Lindsey "just happened to LUCK into being there at the time the band became WILDLY popular." Viable? Yes. Good? Yes. Buzz? I'll take your word for it. Wildly popular that Stevie and Lindsey lucked into? That's not any more accurate than saying that Stevie and Lindsey are the end all be all.

There was a "Buzz" starting to happen about the band just when Welch burnt out and left. Stevie & Lindsey entered just at the right time. THAT's what I'm saying. Sure, they took the ball and ran with it...but, they were lucky that there was a band to join.

If that's what you're saying now, then I would agree with that a little bit more. Though I'd still argue, based on what Bob Welch himself said in his Q&A, that the joining of Lindsey and Stevie was not met with open arms and great enthusiasm by the label. The band, with the Buckingham Nicks unit added, had to work hard, with little promotional help from the label, to get the band on its feet and headed strongly its new direction again. Absolutely, Fleetwood Mac was a nice step up from poverty in BuckinghamNicks when their label dropped their album and made no attempts whatsoever to give it boost, but success was something they earned in the band. It wasn't quite handed to them.

Read Welch's Q&A for his account of he & Lindsey having the conversation of how unhappy Lindsey was being in the band...and that was during the RUMOURS sessions...things got worse when Lindsey wanted to "do his thing" for "Tusk".

That conversation was one Bob and Lindsey had just months after Lindsey joined, not during the Rumours sessions, and Bob seemed in quite a bit of sympathy with Lindsey's difficulty in trying to break through the Fleetwood-McVies clique to understand how he fit in with them and why they wanted him.

Lindsey "doing his thing" for Tusk could be compared in many ways to Peter's "doing his thing" for Then Play On. One member of the band with a vision trying to push the boundaries a little bit. Sometimes the pushing was well-received and sometimes it wasn't.

Mick even told him (Paraphrasing from Mick's book) "Look, Lindsey, either you're in the band or you're not, you can't have it both ways". Lindsey again seemed to him & haw over really wanting to set aside his solo project for "Tango In The Night", as well.

That was, according to Lindsey, Mick's perhaps slightly over the top answer when Lindsey expressed a desire to try something else that they weren't trying during the Rumours sessions. So is that Lindsey really trying to get kicked out or is that Lindsey trying to discuss different ideas and being met with resistence? It's not wrong if Mick resisted, but it's not wrong that Lindsey tried to push a little either. He was trying to figure out his role so that it would be something they'd like and something fulfilling to him too.

Lindsey has said on more than one occasion that he may never have even tried to have a solo career if he thought Fleetwood Mac were really that open to him pushing for his more experimental ideas anymore after Tusk. He didn't think they were, so he created this outlet for himself so he wouldn't "impose" those ideas on unwilling participants anymore. That could be seen as trying fairly hard to figure out how to be a team player but not give up his own directions either.

And despite the hemming and hawing over Tango, Lindsey did set aside the solo stuff and he and Christine put in more time on that album than anyone else did. He left before the tour due largely to the same burn out and weariness and worries that Peter and Bob had when they left.

But, to say that they ARE Fleetwood Mac and that any other incarnation is invalid is wrong...just wrong.

Maybe this comment isn't directed to me, but since you quoted my post, let me just say -- Didn't say it. I don't regard any incarnation as invalid. But certainly, based on my own tastes, I regard certain incarnations as less interesting.

JEEEEZ, SOMEBODY's gotta keep rattling the cage when the "offerings to the "God & Goddess of Fleetwood Mac" get too far over-the-top!

Hehehe.

Chili, the reason why we are all picking on you is that deep down inside we know that you are the most knowledgeable about the band and that you're probably right :D
I'm in total agreement with you here, of course, but the same goes for nearly all the other members. The fact that Danny Kirwan continued with the band after Peter left was equally important in saving the band after the loss of their founding member (As was Peter's brief return after Jeremy went crazy). Bob Welch deserves more credit than most Mac fans (and even, it appears, some of the band members) give him, for transforming the band from a heavy blues jam band to a lighter rock band.

Since luck has been mentioned, I'll address it. Even the most die-hard Stevie fan will admit that her joining the band was due to Lindsey insisting that she join and Mick saying OK. But Lindsey's joining was also sheer luck; it had just so happened that Mick had heard a recording of Buckingham Nicks when he was looking for a studio to record the next album. Unfortunately for many struggling musicians, the music business is such that luck often plays a larger part in determining success that does actual talent.

But the fact that the Rumours lineup is critically, popularly, and commercially the most successful can only mean that Lindsey and Stevie did indeed have the talent and flair that the band needed to go from a mildly successful band to a history-making, record-breaking superband. So the luck arguement cuts both ways -- Lindsey and Stevie owe their success to Fleetwood Mac, but at the same time, FM would probably not be around today, or at least as big as they are today, without them.

Interesting point, though probably not entirely accurate.... Lindsey could have said no thanks to Mick's offer, or he could have quit at any time. Lindsey has always wanted to do things his way, which makes him a very creative individual but not much of a team player. He always wanted to do new things rather than go with the general flow of the band, and he never wanted to play any pre-1975 hits. It is no mystery that by 1979 or earlier, he was beginning to show a desire to quit. Just maybe (and this is another wild suggestion that shouldn't be taken seriously) he stayed on as a gesture of chivalry. Knowing that the success of the band with the white album and rumours was due largely to him, he might have stayed on for the sake of the band or for Stevie's sake.

From what I've read, it's true that both Lindsey and Stevie were hesitant about joining FM, but Lindsey much more than Stevie. Stevie's initial presence was ultimately superfluous; the band already had a lyricist and vocalist with Chris and they really only needed a guitarist. For this reason, she was the one who worked the hardest to try to fit in with the rest of the band, both musically and personally. Another nod to Bob Welch... it was Bob who helped bridge the gap between the newcomers and the rest of the band by befriending them and sticking around until they were settled. Mick's book claims that Bob and Lindsey did not get along, but Bob says in his Q&A that it wasn't true.

I agree that it was luck that allowed Stevie and Lindsey to join, but it was their (mostly Stevie's) hard work that made the whole thing actually work out.

No, that wasn't aimed at anyone in particular...it was a "scattershot" to make those who DO have those types of feelings about Lindsey & Stevie sting a bit...they know who they are! :lol:

"Less interesting"? Ok, I can accept that, but for those who just downright say that a certain incarnation of the band just outright "sucks" because either Lindsey or Stevie (or both) aren't in it (and then go on to say that they've never heard any albums by those incarnations) lose validity of being legitimate "Fleetwood Mac" fans, in my mind...I would consider those folks to be Buckingham Nicks fans and nothing more. For those who've actually given other incarnations a valid listen and THEN say that they're not their cup of tea, fine...but, I'd still wonder by what standard they use to judge those other incarnations. To me, like Stevie pointed out, there's a common thread that runs all the way through Fleetwood Mac. I'll even say from Peter Green all the way to Bekka Bramlett; I'd say there is actually a WEB rather than one straight thread. Jeremy, Billy & Lindsey were all influenced heavily by 50's rock & roll & rockabilly. Obviously, the original roots of the band were the blues; which lived on through Christine, the short-lived Dave Walker, Rick Vito, & Bekka. Lindsey & Stevie, Billy & Bekka also had folk & country influences as well. Bob Welch had R&B roots (as did Dave Mason, Bekka, and, again, the well rounded Billy Burnette, too)...as well as the mystical content of his lyrics which obviously was carried on by Stevie. There are SO MANY ways that the different members throughout the years are so similar...but, the REAL "thread" from Peter Green to Bekka Bramlett?? As Carole Ann so correctly pointed out...it's the ever consistent, ever versatile Mick Fleetwood/John McVie rhythm section...they're the heartbeat, the engine, the drive, of every incarnation.

I'm NOT saying that they don't have talent...of course, they do, or they wouldn't have been in Fleetwood Mac in the first place. But, "Superband"?? That would mean they could repeat the feat they accomplished with Rumours...they've been EXISTING SOLELY on the success of Rumours (and despite the perceived failure of "Tusk") ever since. "Mirage" sold because the purposely tried to recapture the Rumours "sound" after the left-turn with "Tusk" (which to me sounds more like "Rumours" than "Mirage")...by "Tango", the media had already counted them as a non-entity that was "reuniting"...so, the interest in "Fleetwood Mac's back together" (which I found odd since they'd not officially broken up nor had a personnel change in the meantime) was the soundbyte. Even AFTER a couple of personnel changes the concert set was still bogged down with Rumours tunes in lieu of the current personnel's own material...giving the impression to some (myself EXcluded) they were their own "Tribute band".

I will concede that there was (past tense, WAS) a certain "magic" of chemistry that happened with Mick, John, Chris, Lindsey & Stevie...and there was still a faint GLIMMER of it (comparatively) in '97 for "The Dance", but it wasn't anywhere NEAR what it was from 1975-1980. But, I defy anyone to tell me that there wasn't a chemistry between Mick, John, Christine & Bob Welch, either...now those four were TIGHT (as musicians, maybe not as people, but how can you really be one without the other?)...it's really a shame how the relationship between Mick, John & Chris and Bob Welch has deteriorated to the point it has.

EXACTLY my point! Albeit a more genteel way of putting it than my "go for the jugular". ;) Just a "what if"...what if Mick hadn't heard "Frozen Love"?? Any guesses as to who would've replaced Bob Welch? WOULD Welch have left had Mick not already mentioned that he'd been knocked out by Buckingham & Nicks?

Ok, little background here...in 1973, I was working in a record store when "Mystery To Me" was released, it was selling pretty darn well at the store I worked (Wherehouse, Lakewood, Ca), they appear on Midnight Special, which gave the record a bit MORE of a boost the next couple of days, tour's announced, a few gigs under their belt, then the tour's cancelled (nothing was ever mentioned THEN about the Weston/Mrs Fleetwood affair)...confusion reigns supreme when it's announced, seemingly immediately, that Fleetwood Mac will be opening for Deep Purple at the Long Beach Arena...alas comes the phony Mac in concert, local DJ's warn concert goers of the deception, blammo...reputation ruined, record stiffs.

Fast forward to summer of '74, after 8 months of news blips about the pending litigation, restraining orders, etc, FINALLY news that "Heroes Are Hard To Find" is going to be released...record company IS behind this album...our WB A&R rep brings promo posters galore...our store window was painted (at WB expense) like Christmas with "NEW FLEETWOOD MAC ALBUM HERE NEXT TUESDAY"...album is released, band does the syndicated radio show that ends up being the "Will The Real Fleetwood Mac Please Stand Up?" bootleg, they're on Don Kirshner's Rock Concert...articles in Billboard, Cashbox, RS, etc...big buzz...title cut released as single, gets FM radio airplay along with album cuts "Bermuda Triangle", "Come A Little Bit Closer" & "Angel"; but AM radio doesn't touch the single. Meantime, tour ends, Bob leaves, the typical scenario of "another album another personnel change" definitely ISN'T going to be looked upon with great feelings by their record company considering the band's recent past. But, to say (and I'm directing that at the general Ledge population, not at anyone in particular, unless you, again, feel a little tinge of guilt {poke, again} ) that the band was relatively unknown before Stevie & Lindsey joined isn't quite accurate. They had a consistent, loyal, AND growing following. And, really, let's face it, not even the Beatles & Stones at their peak put up "Rumours" sales figures...and even Fleetwood Mac themselves have not been able to repeat that feat...only a couple of movie soundtracks, a greatest hits album and a then still viable (read: more normal, less odd) Michael Jackson, has been able to top those numbers.