Oh, whatever. Stevie circa 1982 still needed Fleetwood Mac as much as they needed her. Sure, she had her burgeoning solo career, but would her second solo album have sold as much as it did if the FM connection had been severed?

Plus, lets not understate Christine McVie's popularity in 1981. She very easily could have had a #1 album in 1981, as Stevie did.

Tis true. And Christine had a really popular solo record in 1984...which remains a good pop album. All star musicians and catchy tunes! I think her contribution to the Mac has been key, even if it has been overshadowed by Buckingham/Nicks. Now don't get me wrong, you know I love Stevie and Buck... but I think Fleetwood Mac works better with Christine. I think it's hard and will continue to be difficult for Lindsey and Stevie to strike the balance you're looking for. But, I hope they CAN do it! ;)

Yes, she needed Mac. But not as much as Lindsey and Christine did at the time.

I think that the band is significantly better with Christine, too. BUT I do have faith in Lindsey and Stevie's ability to make it work if they leave their egos on the coatrack by the door and create a new record with unity at the forefront of their minds.

That's the crux of the matter isn't it? Whether they can make an album that seems unified? I wonder if getting a little bit more loose with Mick and John might help? Who can say?

I think it might help if Lindsey and Stevie approached writing new material together? I think if they could come up with something at least as cohesive as Buckingham Nicks, we might have something on our hands. I agree that SYW felt too much like a puzzle put together incorrectly... And having a new blood producer on the project would allow Lindsey perhaps to step back and look at Stevie from a different perspective and (including his own material) in a different light.

Tusk sounded more cohesive stylistically because 1) it was tracked almost entirely within the space of a single year in a single studio, & 2) Fleetwood Mac themselves were the only producers & players. (Ken Caillat, Richard Dashut, & -- ever so slightly -- Hernan Rojas were the only engineers, & they were all part of the "family" & knew Mac's sound -- helped create it -- on Rumours.)

Say You Will on the other hand was helmed by a ****load of people: three main producers (Lindsey, Rob Cavallo, John Shanks), five different engineers, two separate mixing men, & five other musicians laying down tracks, not counting Christine (Sheryl Crow, Jamie Muhoberac, Dave Palmer, John Pierce, & John Shanks).

The tracks used on the album were also recorded over a span of at least eight years, possibly longer, in various locations.

If the band wants to sound "unified" on a new album, they're going to have to record it from the ground up (no bringing in old tracks & parts of tracks) in the same locale, using the same equipment, & throw the party of additionals out the door.

also they have to stop being douchebags.

Genius.

I wish we could get that across to them, I really do. I don't know if they're going to reach that conclusion on their own.

I dont know if thats possible anymore? I think it'd be "new territory" for them to try and collaborate more (as I said, Stevie and Lindsey writing stuff together)... Then again, they've never really done that. I think there's definitely somewhere left for this band to go... I'm just not so sure how they're gonna get there. ;)

Now that you put it like that, it lays everything into context much better. I believe all of Lindsey's original GOS tracks from the '90s have now found homes between SYW, UTS, and GOS itself. He's effectively flushed that vein out of his system, and can in theory start fresh. Stevie by nature has to start fresh with every album, as she plays no instruments. She brings rough demos to the table, but as we heard in the Destiny Rules doc, her songs change substantially from that initial starting point. The good news is with GOS, Lindsey made his most consistent, well balanced album to date, and you could even say it was his most cohesive, balanced material since his Fleetwood Mac body of work from the '70s. He'd definitely be starting out on the right foot with forward motion from GOS. :thumbsup:

Who knows, maybe the fumbled effort that is SYW will only push them to get it together and do it right next time around. I suspect neither Stevie nor Lindsey would want SYW to be the Mac's closing note. Whether or not they can all actually find common ground and a common vision to correct that is what will remain to be seen.

She's not the only one who felt that way about her work on SYW.

The girl needs to bring some better songs to the table.

Doesn't matter who the producer is if all he has to work with is crap.


(I'm running now)

Somebody's spot on once again lol...

I also think they should go back to that sound that made them famous, or at least the Buckingham Nicks era of Fleetwood Mac. Get rid of the gimmicks that were prominent on "Say You Will", which in say ten years will not have stood the test of time well, and make a more organic Californian rock sound. They had their own style, which made the song instantly indentifiable with the band before anyone started singing. The only reason why a listener would know "Say You Will" was a Fleetwood Mac album (bar the likes of "Destiny Rules" and "Thrown Down") was because they could hear Stevie and/or Lindsey singing.

I would say that Stevie was only "most loyal" to the band, in the sense that she didn't leave it. I would never call her contributions to TITN more loyal than Lindsey or Christine's.

And I certainly don't think Stevie sacrificed more than they did for the band.

As far as her needing the band less than Christine or Lindsey did, that depends on how you define "need." If you mean she needed the band to sell out concerts and to make money as a solo artist less than they did, you're definitely correct. She had a name value of her own.

Financially, I don't think they needed the money more than she did. So, they needed FM for its star power, to sell records. At the time, I don't think their "need" to be with FM was greater in any other sense than that.

Right now, I would say that yes what Lindsey wants from his career today makes him desire and need Fleetwood Mac more than Stevie (possibly more than John too, I don't know what John wants), but I don't think that was true in the eighties or nineties, not it in the least.

After SYW came out, even when they were still doing the publicity for SYW, Lindsey said that he wanted to work on a FM album from the ground up and that he wanted them to put out songs that were written with the band in mind from the start, so he had some sense on how to make something more cohesive back then. Hopefully, they follow through.

Michele

Anyone have any quotes from interviews, press confrences, etc.. with stuff like this being talked about? I would love to read what they were saying back then about another album, and compare it to what's being said now:nod:

I tend to agree with you to a degree here. She should never have drug out such ancient songs as Goodbye Baby, Running Through The Garden, or Smile At You and expected them to halfway go with what Lindsey brought to the table. Say You Will was just fluff, and Silver Girl was just bad. While I'm not 100% nuts with the way Illume turned out, I absolutely LOVE the story and sentiment behind the song, and I love what the song was going for. To me, it's the only of Stevie's songs on SYW that seemed to be a true band effort... she was absolutely pushing her sound envelope, and for her this was a truly experimental track. Mick or Lindsey called it her Gold Dust Woman of the '90s, and there may be some merit to that.

On a more positive note, I can't express enough how much I ADORE Destiny Rules. I really do put it right up there with Gypsy... it's just classic Stevie through and through, and defines everything that I love about Fleetwood Mac. I love Not Make Believe nearly as much... it's a shame it didn't make the album. Thrown Down is a good effort too, but I still prefer the original 'wall of sound' take from TISL.

I think the one the we can all agree on is this: Lindsey doesn't need to bring fully finished songs to the table next time around, and Stevie needs to leave her dusty '70s and '80s demos at home! Except for If You Were My Love :D.

I don't know why people keep saying this, because it just isn't true. Is everyone forgetting the time period of 1990-1997??

Truly, one could almost argue Christine was far more 'loyal.' She stuck with the band through multiple lineups, through anonymity, riches and poor, she stayed after her divorce from the band member who brought her into the group to begin with, kept traveling for decades with the band despite her fear of flying, and gave 30 years of her prime to the band that in many senses took her for granted.

I think if you were to place Stevie and Christine side by side, Chris is the one who stuck with the band through thick and thin. She was there for years before the band became a household name, and only left to retire from the business. Stevie left the band in '90 out of personal disagreements.

I think Christine and Lindsey were more loyal than Stevie.

Stevie kept songs for herself such as E of 17, Stand Back etc which could have been good hits for FM.

What if:

SYW didn't happen, instead Christine returned and made an album and it turned out like this:

1, Did you Miss Me
2, Friend
3, Planets of the Universe
4, Love Runs Deeper
5, Sorcerer
6, Fall from Grace
7, Right place to Fade
8, Love is
9, You are
10, Underground

That would sell millions.

Yeah, Lindsey was talking about more work with Fleetwood Mac non-stop. In fact, at the time he said that he didn't even really see the need to put out more solo work, if FM could continue. As far as finding those interviews goes . . . I grow old. I grow old. I shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled. I will look, but I'm weary and feeble. And lazy.

Stevie was not talking about a new album from FM, during the SYW period. The most hope she gave us on that score was this year.

Michele

(puts on running shoes)

I'm with you. I guess it's a matter of taste, but I think she's written better songs that will likely never see the light of day, such as The Dealer, Forsaken Love, Space Needle. A re-work of any of those songs would, for me, have been more favourable than most of her songs on SYW (and the albums after Mirage to be very honest).

It is true that Nicks only participated in the recording of TITN for a matter of days ,likely less than 2 weeks whereas it was an 18 month recording process.With Mirage she was in France with the band for six weeks.As far as Edge and Stand Back to be fair both of those songs were penned midway through production of BD and WH respectively so it's not like she squirrled them away from Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not sure if Stevie purposefully kept the 'best' songs to herself. There are demos of an early version of Planets of the Universe from the Rumours era for example. I think it's possibly the case that she offers them to the band and they aren't so keen, or it just doesn't work, so she keeps them for her solo work where she has more freedom.

That track list looks brilliant but we know the songs as solo efforts, they might have turned out completely differently were threy Fleetwood Mac songs.

Yes, I am forgetting it. In fact, I lost consciousness in August 1987 and was not revived until 1997.

However, Stevie did not leave the band in 1990. She was on tour with the band throughout 1990.

As for her loyalty to the band, if I made a list of FM members who were most loyal to the band, I'm not even sure Stevie would crack the Top 5.

If the argument is that Stevie was more popular with the public than Lindsey and Christine and so her staying to grace those slugs with her magical presence meant more than anyone else being in the band meant, well . . .

Michele

Yes, when Stevie said she gave Lindsey her songs for SYW, she said she was surprised that he hadn't heard them before, because she just assumed he'd heard everything she'd written. Lindsey clearly knew about POTU and Sorcerer. The band had Think About It, passed on Smile At You. I think she probably did offer FM a lot of her songs -- or even if she didn't offer, the songs were available to FM. Lindsey just took The Chain. If he knew of something else she had that he wanted to work with, he would have taken that too. I don't think they were interested in a lot of her solo material.

As stellar as it is, given the chance, FM probably wouldn't have used EO17.

Michele

So it sounds like you at loved or at least liked strongly 4 or 5 of Stevie's songs, which is actually higher than her average contributions to FM albums. So with some drastic editing, one could make the case that Stevie's contributions to SYW were among her strongest ever. I do agree that "Silver Girl" stunk up the joint so badly that it actually negated the good songs she contributed. But then again, Stevie cannot be singled out- of all of the GoS songs he had to choose from, I think Lindsey basically took out the trash and dumped it on SYW. In an ideal world, SYW should have looked like this:

1. Someone's Gonna Change Your Mind
2. Illume
3. Down on Rodeo
4. Thrown Down
5. Red Rover
6. Destiny Rules
7. Gift of Screws
8. Say You Will
9. Right Time to Fade
10. Everybody Finds Out
11. I Am Waiting
12. Goodbye Baby

That is one damn good track list! I'd replace Red Rover with Come or Did You Miss Me though. Otherwise...Hell yeah!!

I completely agree with this. Her contributions weren't any more self-sacrificing and consistent but she would always be back in the studio at some point for a new record and she would never bail on a tour.

As usual, you take the words out of my mouth.

"Loyal" may have been the wrong word on my part-- Louie's summary of Christine's loyalty to the band definitely proves that she blows Stevie out of the water in that category, and I completely agree with that. I do think, however, that we can't discredit Stevie's presence throughout all the albums and tours since Rumours.

HAHA... Riiiight. Like Stevie was "back in the studio" hardcore for Tango in the Night. Yeeaaah. ;)

Stevie did leave the band I believe in 1991? All the way thru to The Dance...

And while I hate that Lindsey backed out of the Tango tour, at least we've got him back in the band now.

She made an appearance for Tango in the Night even though it was a weak effort on her part. And leaving from 1991-1997 was because of "health issues".

As I said, Christine was more loyal, I agree. I just think we can't discredit Stevie for her own efforts with the band.

Health? She left 'cause she was pissed at Mick over not giving her Silver Springs to put on TimeSpace. Stevie's been quoted as saying that, if I recall correctly.

I actually love Lindsey's solo work, but his sound might work only for him. There was some Lindsification of Stevie's songs on SYW (Smile at You, for example - god I hate that ****.)

Her TISL voice is okay. I love the way she sounded from about 1994-1999. Deeper voice, still some vibrato and "Stevie sound." She has really lost that now.

I'd be interested if Stevie put out a solo album. Whether or not I'd *like* it, I can't say, but I'd check it out. But as someone else said, it would be hard to create a cohesive sound (for the Mac) if you're trying to cram all of these different personalities into songs. Over time, they've been less and less able to do that, especially with Chris being gone.

She also recorded at least a few of the TITN songs in 1985/86, like Seven Wonders.

Yep in fact Seven Wonders was recorded c. Halloween of 1986 making it the last songe she ever recorded during the "coke and brandy" years as she went into Betty Ford days later.I think cumuatively her participation in the Tango sessions probably totalled 7 to 10 days.A nice paycheck for that amount of work considering the album's international sales of around 8 million.

When it comes to vocals, I think SW is the last great song she recorded with FM.

It is a special song as it's vocal marked the end of the era that undoubtedly produced her greatest performances and songs.

Switch "Goodbye Baby" with "Running Through The Garden", put "Destiny Rules" as the last song and then that would be the perfect album in my opinion.

That's sort of the time era I meant. I love how her voice sounds on "Street Angel". Sure, the album's **** but at least her voice sounds amazing. I think those vocal lessons she started getting around 1998 have been more of a hinderence than a help.

Funny, I just heard this on the radio and was reminded how good I think it sounds.

This is one of the "ground up" comments that I was remembering. Lindsey said it to USA Today in April 2003:

Also, here's a totally unrelated comment I was just reading of John's:

That's interesting to me. I hear Lindsey's voice on FM stuff. It's his outside work where I can't hear him. For instance, I cannot hear him on Egan's work. I hear him on Where's the Party and that's about it. I don't think he hides his voice in FM. Of course, he's always altering it.

Michele

I've got an idea. For the next Fleetwood Mac album Stevie should
get up out of the chair and belt out a few songs. I know there's a
big difference in her age, but watch the Tusk Documentary where
she's recording "Angel". And then watch Destiny Rules, I can't
remember which song she's singing, but she's sitting down. Unless
you're playing an instrument, it would be nice if the person putting
down vocals would stand up and put a little energy into it.

"Thrown.........down.......like...a ba.....", hey I think I need to sit
down.