Good point Amber.

I wonder what he did to get the other 2 strikes...

As usual, the twisting of words.

Did I say opinions counted more if you send in money? No, I most certainly did not.
I think we've proven time and time again, that ALL opinions are considered/respected, regardless of whether or not someone is a Supporting Ledgie.

My point was that it takes a great deal of money to run a site this large... a huge amount of that money comes out of Marty's pocket, augmented by the valued contributions of our supporting members.
So I don't understand why Marty's wishes and decisions can't be respected, and I also can't see why anyone feels their demands are any more important than anyone else's.

If my comment sounded "classless," then so be it. I think I've exhibited far more class in various situations, time and time again, then post people would ever care to.

Really? I thought it was apropos. Someone thoughtfully pays for the Ledge, and we get to post here, for free if we want, with donation if we want. But someone DOES have to pay for it, therefore it belongs to them. ie, Marty owns it. It is his. so i think it's fine that it's up to his discretion to share an email with us or not. Just because we're here, doesn't mean we're owed anything.... :shrug:
AMber

I've been a longtime poster even before Carne so I have been around during the previous strike situations which I can barely remember. and as much as I love Carne, even he knew his banning day would come. He has had two previous strikes for a very long time but he never compromised his posts in fear of a third strike.

and with Mari's post we all see his goodbye which is pure Carne style in both substance and tone. ...so even the evil multiple useraccounts has gotta make you laugh...I never suspected a thing!! :)

Carne, we miss you but good luck with your new family :blob1:

Amber, I didn't mean to add that jumping smiley to that PM of mine, it was an accident. I can't laugh at any of this and have no real sentiments of humour in this situation.

(And this is only here because your PM box is full.)

With all due respect, that sounds like Bush double-speak. What the heck are people supposed to take away from this comment:

It was a deliberate slap in the face and you know it. But seeing as how a) I'm not a moderator and b) I don't send money using the scam that is PayPal, it really doesn't matter what I think. You can look back in hindsight and say "That's not what I meant," but it was. Otherwise, why make such a biting comment about who does and who doesn't send their money to the board?

Marty's decision to ban Carne, which I'm sure you were delighted with, has been respected. Marty himself said we were perfectly welcome to post our thoughts on it and whether or not we agreed or disagreed, with the one clause that no matter what, the ruling stands. I see no one participating in this thread that does not understand that.

The comment was classless, plain and simple. But, since you've demonstrated such class before, I guess I shouldn't comment on what I see as being classless now. Good lord, no one every does it to me. :rolleyes:

It also doesn't mean that moderators can be rude to other posters because they haven't necessarily donated money.

Ah, yes, ascribing emotions to other people which you don't even know exist....speaking of classy....
AMber

I haven't really seen that happen. I've seen people be rude to moderators, though...and, moderators are posters, too, so if you say something rude to one, you may shouldn't be suprised to get it back...Again, i've not seen a moderator be rude to someone because they haven't donated money.
AMber

Ah, well, I'll just combat that little dig with the argument that I've exhibited a bit of class in other various situations. See, that renders my current demonstration of classlessness invalid. :p

Then you obviously haven't read Johnny Stew's post on the previous page. It was purposeful dig. But it doesn't matter what I think because I haven't donated any money.

:laugh: I see you're playing by the Calvinball rules.... :)
AMber

NO, I saw...you call that a dig? Your standards of dig, then, must have slipped considerably since your last post :D To me, it was more of a point, and kind of spoke to the fact that Marty has a perfect right to keep a private email private if he wants, and also spoke to the point of what Ledgies think they're entitled to...I dunno, it just didn't seem that offensive to me, especially comparatively... :wavey:
good chattin' with ya.... :)
AMber

I was trying to put things into perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.

But you'll see it however you wish to see it, and nothing I could say would make any difference.




For the record, and in case you haven't noticed, I was not at all "delighted" by CarneVaca being banned. I've said time and time again, that I don't have to agree with someone 100% of the time, in order to like them and respect them. JWD and sodascouts can attest to that.

CV and I actually had some really nice PM exchanges, regarding my expression of the desire to be a father. And, in recent times, I thought he and I were getting along quite well, and had established a solid give-and-take type rapport, based on mutual respect.

But, again, nothing I can say will change your mind, once you've made it up. So I guess none of that matters.

Yeah, I call that a dig. I know when Stew is being cheeky and that was a good example. I think the comment spoke more towards what he feels is entitlement for the folks who send this place their money. Since those of us in this thread don't send money for the most part, we are not entitled to express our opinions about how it's run. He really should copyright that particular brand of logic.

If that's the kind of perspective you want me to put things into, forget it. Last I checked, no one around here was better than anyone else because they sent a few bucks to maintain the board. But things have changed in the past few days, maybe that's one of them.

But Carne didn't send any money. :laugh:

I hope you weren't happy to see him go. I think anyone who was happy to see him go probably don't realize that a great contributor has been banned for what I believe are silly reasons.

Um, i think you're inferring too much meaning from what he actually said, which was like, blah blah, people who help contribute to the ledge, blah, notice some of the loudest complainers don't give to the ledge.
obviously, that's a paraphrase, but I don't think he ever actually said that people who don't contribute aren't as entitled to speak their minds, or respect, or whatever, he merely cheekily said that some of the loudest gripers are the non-supporters. He pointed that out, he didn't actually say that in order to be heard or have their opinion count, people need to send money...
again, to much meaning from those words, I think.
AMber

Um, johnny never said that anyone was better because they sent a few bucks. You can't just take some words and change their meaning and add new meanings to WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID AND MEANT. I mean, you're just making stuff up :shrug: stuff to just be mad about, even though you've changed the intention and the meaning of the words? :confused:
"you got me mystifiiiiiiiieeed"
AMber

I think you're inferring too little.

I'm not making anything up, I'm responding to the classless remark he made.

I'm not inferring anything, I'm looking at what the actual words said, which i assume hold the meaning johnny intended, no more, no less. What he said was A, so I assume he meant ASee how that works? some people call it good listening, although in this case it would probably be good reading....
AMber

Personally, I thought he did say the financial contributors are better!!! :D

So you think it's classless that he pointed out that some of the most vocal ledgies who are demanding things don't contribute?
I think it's classless that people are demanding the disclosure of private emails to Marty, and then acting like he's doing something wrong, and variously insulting all the Mods, for keeping it to himself. The sense of entitlement, period, is a bit classless, IMO.
AMber

How? Which words did he use that said that? seriously, if they're there, I'll happily acknowledge...
AMber

The same thing he got banned for -- excessive insults, feuding, and harassment. And, in typical fasion, he created public threads about those private incidents in an order to rally his minions and make the owners/moderators look bad.

Read for yourself -- call up CV's profile page and open the "Find all threads started by..." link. Go to the last page and look for threads entitled "Big Bad Poster" and "The Case for Rescission". (Sorry, I tried to post actual links to these, but my browser keeps crashing...)

Assuming is essentially the same as inferring. :shrug:

:lol: Wise ass!

I see that CarneVaca's email to me has been posted. Frankly, I do not understand why. As you can see from the letter, he 'challenged' me to post it and I declined. The reason was because he had been banned. Why does someone get an additional post after they are banned? It does not seem right to me that because I declined this 'challenge', that someone else has the right to step in and accept it for me. That seems fair to you gerald and Mari? Can you at least see why I think it would be my decision to make?

Anyway, it's been posted already and probably most people have seen it. If it were to be removed, I'm sure that it would just be circulated anyway so it can just stay. Aside from two things, I don't really see anything in it that hasn't been mentioned already anyway though and the letter certainly doesn't change the ban. Two comments were not addressed-- (1) do I feel 'duped' and (2) I stated publically that I would not ban CarneVaca for the criticisms made about the stickies, Villavic's closed post, etc..

With respect to feeling 'duped', I actually had not even though about that until CarneVaca wrote it. Honestly, the answer is no. When people apply for membership for the Ledge, I don't get a photocopy of their driver's license, passport, or a security deposit. I do not do background checks or require biographical sketches. After they post I do not pour over IP addresses and compare styles of writing. Most of my Fleetwood Mac Penguin time for the past summer has been spent working on the new discography script and not reading messages on The Ledge. I do not feel it is a personal failure of any kind because I did not make the connection and I really do not feel duped. When the moderators found out about the situation, it was acted upon immediately.

With respect to the public statement about not banning CarneVaca for criticisms made against the Ledge management, that was true then and is true now. The reasons for his ban were stated in my post yesterday. At the time of my initial public statement too, I had no idea that he was also Dulcimer and NoThatFunny and therefore was not weighing any kind of judgement on the actions of those usernames too.

The discussions about the contributions here strikes me as pointless and really just silly. It is certainly appreciated when people make small contributions to help Lis and I with the site but it is not required and certainly has no bearing here. People are not given any special (or worse) treatment because they do (or do not) contribute.

I do not intend to keep posting in this thread but just wanted to address CV's letter. The reason for the ban was given by the moderators and this thread was continued so that comments could be aired. As dissention pointed out, the decision for the ban is not going to be reversed because of the discussion. Please try to bring the overall tone down a bit though....

- Marty

No sense of entitlement here, only a sense of fairness. :wavey:

Not wishing to speak for Bella Figura, or put words into her mouth ('cause I sure know how that feels), I think her comment was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek, based on a certain notation underneath her own username.

not really. and assuming someone meant just what they said is normal. I didn't go off word and infer new and different meanings which only had vague relationship to the actual concrete meaning. That's what words do, that's why people use them - they mean something. And with most words, the meaning is fairly set.
Whatevah, you can infer around all you want. Maybe next you'll say that somehow he meant that all brown haired people between 25-35 should immediately send $500 to the ledge. Or maybe you'll say he meant that Frogs grow on the trees outside his house. I mean, you've already made up so much that wasn't there, who's to say you won't take it farther?
AMber

Do you own a thesaurus? :laugh:

As for the rest, that tune has already been trumpeted, Amber. We disagree, end of story.

I haven't really said anything through all this, but I'm a little disturbed at a couple of things. First of all, Diss, I love ya :xoxo:, but you are notorious for classless comments, at least IMO, so what are ya giving JS such a hard time for?

What I find most disturbing, however, is how odd I find Carne's behavior. Here is a man who is obviously quite intelligent, married and a father, and he spends all this time trying to outwit people on a message board???? THAT disturbs me greatly. I think now that he has been banned, he can spend more quality time with his child and less time "playing" around. Sometimes I really enjoyed reading Carne's posts; other times he really made me angry. He was always entertaining and often controversial. But this ain't real life folks, so I hope his young child benefits from this banning. That's what really matters.

yes, I was just kidding!!! Amber!!! :D

you're not married to a prankster, are you? :) lucky girl, believe me, they will expound any amount of energy for a good laugh...

First of all, thanks for the compliment. :laugh: :xoxo:

Yeah, I make the most classless comments this side of Dick Cheney on the Senate floor, but I see a difference between my cracks and what I saw as rather rude about who is entitled to what on the board. It was especially perplexing coming from a moderator. Essentially, what he did was belittle all of the users in this thread who don't contribute. Normally, I would just respond by saying that my mere presence is contribution enough, but I'm not known for keeping my thoughts to myself, am I? :laugh:

I'm not going to continue debating this. As usual, it's down to a matter of semantics.
But I did not mean that anyone's opinions are any less valuable, if they haven't made a monetary contribution, or more valuable if they have.

I don't feel that way now, nor have I ever.
In fact, I was not a "Supporting Ledgie" myself for quite some time after that option was made available, because, frankly... and not that it's anyone's business... but I don't have a lot of money. And what I do have, I need to hang on to.

So in my situation, I saved a dollar or two here or there, and then made a donation when I had enough money set aside to do so.
But other people have families and/or spouses to support, bills to pay, medical expenses to cover, etc., etc.
So, whatever the reason may be, I would NEVER be the one to hold it against someone for not making a monetary contribution. I have no idea what anyone's financial situation is, and I wouldn't presume to guess who could and couldn't afford to make a donation.

As I said earlier... and whether it was believed or not... I was simply trying to put things into perspective, and ask for some respect for Marty's decision(s).

I don't apologize for what I said, because I didn't mean it in a rude or "classless" way, and because I can't control how every individual on these boards might interpret something I say.

1. Why do you think his signature was "rescind the strike". Not because you think he agreed with that punishment earlier?

2. In 500 posts it's easy to force 5 innings of strikes.

3. The guy was great when he was on the edge. But to keep on the edge for long does not go without mistakes. If you keep debates so lively for 95% of the time, I think you deserve to be set straight in the other 5%, but also be forgiven for your mistakes.
Unfortunately, people on this FABULOUS penguin-site and great board, disagree with me.

I'm sorry johnny.
I'm not gonna ask for the fourth time to answer my questions.
I BELIEVE that you all tried to be considerate.
But you did not communicate that way. Even if I asked to show me where to find that human touch and put it in the context of the positive strength of Carne's posts, you don't seem to see that it would have been smarter to play it open like the banned punk asked.

where's that third-finger-emoticon when you need it?

Yeah, it all seems kinda mental-creepy to me, too.

I have to say in all honesty, that I thought this comment-

-was not too cool. I mean, it was simply a little dig- it pointed out that most of the people complaining about this situation don't contribute to this board. I thought it was unnecessary and condescending.

In any case, Carne was certainly smart enough to realize that his shenanigans were going to get himself in trouble. For the mods of this board to let him slide because he has 3,000 posts would just allow others to possibly pull off the same stuff without retribution- which isn't very fair to people like Jacob who got reamed in the process. However, I did appreciate many of Carne's contributions (for the record I LOVED his discourse- it was wonderful, thought provoking and highly entertaining). So, for those who are saddened to see Carne go, perhaps they should direct their displeasure at Carne- after all, he knew the score and is responsible for his own actions.