See, I always thought that the lyrics from the RAL songs were her most universal and "mainstream." I don't think that any of them make you think and reflect the way that songs like Sara, Gypsy, Gold Dust Woman, and Storms do. I mean, I just think that songs like I Can't Wait, The Nightmare, If I Were You, Imperial Hotel, and I Sing For the Things are pretty self-explanatory once you hear the lyrics, whereas when you hear Sara or Gold Dust Woman you actually have to *think* about what she's saying or at least ponder it for awhile. Her mid-eighties songs don't do it for me because they aren't as deep and edited very well. Some of them just make me laugh.

But, it is a matter of preference. :)

RE: the RAL songs...aren't most of them NOT written by her? Or they are co-written w/ someone else? That says a lot right there...

Maybe you just need to snort a mountain of cocaine before you listen to those albums to "get" them? :shrug: :laugh:

Damnit, Beavis, don't make me slap you! :p

;) :laugh:

I dunno... I've never partaken of a single illegal substance in my life, and I "get" them, so...!

But then, I'm a weirdo from way-back! :laugh:

Yes, many of them do have a co-writing credit... but Stevie was the lyricist, and the other person credited was writing the music. :)

LOL

I get them, they just aren't very good songs when you consider what she was capable of. :)

ITA agree about the early 80s lyrics being more substantive than the later 80s (as a rule, certainly not without exception). I find the following songs off of RAL especially grating: Sister Honey, Imperial Hotel, and THE NIGHTMARE (wretched - arguably one of her worst!). From OSOTM: Long Way to Go, Ghosts, Fire Burning, Alice, and Doing the Best That I Can.

On the other hand, Ooh My Love and Battle of the Dragon are two of my top 20 Stevie songs ever, and they were also written around that time. BOTD is especially brilliant. So I wouldn't say that Stevie couldn't write or sing at that point. I would say that she perhaps lost her focus a bit, maybe was feeling a little uninspired and couldn't find the energy to break out of it with all her drug difficulties.

The fact that Johnny Stew likes this period BEST shows that beauty really is in the ear of the beholder, lol.

there are some things that i already gave up hope to be ever able to understand; mathematics, eminem fans, why people think cinnamon is good, fluorescent lighting, people who don't believe deodorant is a man's best friend, users that turns off their cellphones, and stevie nicks fans who don't get When I See You Again.
yes, it's repetative, but not by any means 'family-man-repetative'. every time she goes back to "what's the matter baby" she sings this line in a totally different expression and manner.
it's one of those little intimate stevie songs such as goodbye baby or landslide... i love the way it's written and i adore the way she sounds there, let's face it, she was never about vocal ability, she's all about vocal expression, WISYA is just one of those songs, you cannot listen to it without FEELING it, it's so true and so desperate, that it can melt even the icyest hearts (such as mine :eek:.)

That it is. ;)

I do think that some of my affection for this period is born out of the chaotic nature of Stevie's life at the time.
I find it amazing that she could still... in my opinion, at least... be very creative.
Despite how it may seem, I don't think she hit a home-run everytime, but I still think this was an amazing period in her career.

I also think that the difference between me and a lot of people here, is that I pretty much joined the ride at the time of 'Rock A Little.'
I wasn't someone who was looking back and comparing it to things she had already written (despite that I had already known and loved songs like "Gypsy" and "Edge Of Seventeen") and at the time, I didn't know about the cocaine addiction, or that Stevie hadn't always been so over-the-edge in her performances.

It was all pretty new, and exciting, and compelling to me.

But, if there really wasn't anything there, I would have lost interest years ago (as I have in so many other artists I've listened to over the years).

There have been some very major, and markedly different periods in Stevie's career, and it's no wonder that we all feel so vehemently about the various stages.

CarneVaca... Nancy (sodascouts) made the comment that "I Must Go," "sounds more like a man caught in an endless loop of indecision than one who is breaking free," as part of her argument as to why she doesn't care for the song.
To which you whole-heartedly agreed (at least that's how I took your "BINGO" response)... implying that this is what makes the song so terrific.

Well, sure, the point being that he's stuck in this situation and he keeps telling himself in very frenetic way that he must go. Hmmm, who hasn't been there? It makes the song rather brilliant, in my humble estimation. I've always loved this song.

So, once again, I don't understand why... when Lindsey has taken a certain step (an endlessly repeated phrase, in this case), it's EXACTLY the right thing for the song, and another facet of what makes it so great... but if Stevie also uses a repeated phrase, or a particular vocal style, it's somehow a cop-out on her part, and the resulting song is merely "drivel" and "tripe."

Well, buddy, I challenge you to find where I wrote that the repetition of that particular phrase in When I See You Again is what makes me dislike the song. While it doesn't make me like it any better, what really offends me about the song is the awful singing and the stupid words. I understand what you're saying about what the song evokes, and I'm glad it works for you, but to me, it is absolutely excruciating. The words are probably the worst she has ever written next to Silver Girl.

Can you at least understand how, as much as you, personally, can glean from a song such as "I Must Go," and as much as you find enjoyment from it... that's how much a song such as "When I See You Again" can be appreciated by, and moving to, someone else?

Dude, that's fine with me. I've never said anyone was wrong here. I merely said that using the term "unfair" and directing it at the reasons people give for not liking the song to be silly. Say you don't like broccoli. Is that unfair? I don't happen to like Buicks because they're unsightly. Is that unfair?

I'm also reminded of your arguments for "Family Man"... another song which a large amount of people often cite as "the worst" (though I myself happen to love the song).

You and your elephantine memory. But one thing that escaped you then and escapes you still is that I am not particularly fond of the lyrics in that song. I simply believe that he said all he wanted to say, thereby accomplishing what he set out to do, and put beautiful music to it to boot, hence my "simplicity is beauty" coment.

but to completely write it off (aside from Lindsey's contribution to the song), is... in my opinion... a bit short-sighted.

You're going to have to enlighten me here on how the term "short-sighted" applies to disliking a song. That's right up there with "unfair." Really, please explain.

Well, I'm not going to be bothered to read thru the entire thread again, so I won't be quoting any particular comment you made... but you are right, you haven't specifically stated that the "what's the matter, baby" section causes your dislike for the song. Though you did state the the lyrics are "bad," and that section is a part of the lyrics, so I was left to assume (my bad) that this included... or perhaps was due in no small part to... the repetitive phrase.

In regards to "Family Man"... it's true that I never "got" before that you're not particularly fond of the lyrics. I don't recall you every stating that specifically. And since the lyrics... to me, at least... are more important than anything else in any song... my take on your "beauty in simplicity" praise of "Family Man," was that it included the lyrics, as a complete package.

I guess it's possible to appreciate a song almost solely based on the music, but if the lyrics are the weakest link, then the author may as well have left it as an instrumental. To me, at least, since the lyrics are what I respond to most.

Now, as far as my "short-sighted" comment...
In my opinion, the things for which people bash "When I See You Again"... the stark lyrics, the repetitive phrase, Stevie's tattered voice... are all the things that make this song so brilliant. Each is an important facet, and each is... in my opinion... completely intentional.
Just as Lindsey apparently accomplished what he set out to do, in songs such as "I Must Go," and "Family Man," I believe that "When I See You Again" is EXACTLY what Stevie (and Fleetwood Mac, as a whole) set out to make it.

Truly, one needs to look no further than the fact that there were many other songs of Stevie's that they could have used instead. Or that she could have offered them.

The "saving the best material for the solo albums" argument never holds water in my opinion, because I feel that there is no way Stevie would intentionally offer up weak material for Fleetwood Mac... which couldn't possibly accomplish anything other than making her look bad.
(By the way, I am not saying that you implied anywhere here or elsewhere, that Stevie did this... I'm just making a point here.) :)

So I feel that Stevie full-heartedly felt very strongly and passionately enough about "When I See You Again," to offer it to Fleetwood Mac.
And I feel that Fleetwood Mac felt strongly enough to want to go thru the process of recording it, when they could have just as easily said, "what else do you have?"

And it's my bet that this song turned out EXACTLY the way all parties wished it to.

It's absolutely someone's right to say that the lyrics "sucked," or that her voice "sucked," but those particular comments are what I feel are "unfair"... in much the same way as it would be "unfair" to write off "I Must Go" or "Family Man," for weak lyrics or repeated phrases.
The song goes far beyond any of its individual parts.

If someone dislikes it, I respect that... and again, as I said before, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I know I'll never be able to do that.
I just wished to "defend" it, in much the same way as others have defended their favorite songs. :)

We're just all so danged passionate about this music! :D

I hate to jump right in the middle of this, but...

Not to sound rude, Randy, but who are you to decide what is or is not a valid opinion? ANY opinion is valid, if only because it is someone's belief and point of view. And if someone says Stevie can't write or sing, that is their opinion. It isn't fact. Then again, it isn't fact that Stevie CAN write or sing.

I just don't see what the big fuss is about. You like one song that someone else despises. I happen to like WISYA alot, but I also respect the viewpoints of those who do not, because I can appreciate that they do NOT like it.

Just my $0.02 on this overblown thread.

Randy was also stating an opinion. ;) :)

At any rate... since all of our excitement about the new album and tour has somewhat died down, I guess we needed another rousing debate to get everyone's juices flowing.

The debate over "When I See You Again" is an old war-horse. :)

You're calling Stevie a WHAT?!?!?! :eek:


Oh....never mind... :sorry: ...read it wrong. :laugh: