I think the whole "no one told us cocaine was dangerous" thing is definitely denial, too. Although Lindsey and John have pretty much said the same things... "everyone did it," "that was the 70s," "we didn't know it was bad for you," etc., etc.

But, truly, it's pretty much the same thing as the millions of people who smoke. Come on, we ALL know it's detrimental to one's health, yet how many people continue to light up?
Everyone thinks that they'll be the one lucky person who can get away with it, with no adverse effects. And when they're diagnosed with lung cancer or emphysema or heart disease, they're still shocked -- like they had NO idea that could ever happen to them.

In the mid/late seventies, when she started, it was not yet known to be super dangerous. I mean, logic should tell you that, but every person on earth was doing it then, and no one more than rock stars.

And then they sue the tobacco companies as if they were the ones who forced them to light up in the first place. :laugh: Personal responsibility has gone the way of the dinosaurs, Le Stew.

Exactly. I mean, common sense should tell you that a substance that makes you fidgety and keeps you up for three days straight isn't good for you. Duh! Then again, they're rock stars, not rocket scientists.

Yeah, that's because we're evil, too. :laugh:

I don't think there's anything wrong with disagreeing with your point that Fleetwood Mac was "forced" to go on without her. She didn't hold a gun to their heads.
Lindsey had already left, Rick quit, Billy quit (though he eventually came back), Christine didn't want to tour anymore.... to pin any damage to Fleetwood Mac's career on Stevie and her decision to leave, seems a bit near-sighted.

By the way, if you go back a few more years to Lindsey's departure, it would seem that his defection set in motion the chain of events that lead to Fleetwood Mac eventually being regarded as, in your words, "a souped-up covers band."
Put that kind of blame on him in the company of LB fans, and, trust me, you won't get any better of a reaction than you get from Stevie's fans. ;)

Perhaps you meant "you" as in "you all" and were making sweeping generalization. Or perhaps you did not notice that you were responding to someone who was replying to you for the first time and as such had made no mention of whether FM really had anything to "decided." In fact I will gladly admit that if Warners' asserted pressure that FM (in what ever incarnation Mick could piece together) had very few options at their disposal. So please don't attribute my very small statement into this elaborate idea that you have about certain Stevie fans wanting to divert your discussion because it I'm playing that game.

You said it, brother! My favorite is the folks who sue fast food establishments for causing their obesity.
Stuff your face full of double-decker burgers every day, then wash them down with milkshakes, and guess what's going to happen, Einstein. :rolleyes:

I gained weight because my fat ass didn't know when to say "when" -- not because Mayor McCheese force fed me.

:nod: You are what you eat, so if people eat all that fat, that's what they'll be.

Those lawsuits are utter jokes. Someone even tried to sue Nabisco over their Oreo cookies. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I challenge you to be a rock star, or even a person, in the late seventies and not do coke. Go on, use your wayback machine...just try, bet you can't!!!

Tina Turner is a good example, but you probably weren't being literal. :laugh: It still doesn't absolve anyone of personal responsibility, nor does it make the "no one ever told they were bad" excuse any less laughable. Common sense tells you that if you snort an illegal substance up your nose that has weird effects on you, it probably isn't healthy. :laugh:

So, you are trying to tell me Tina didn't ever do coke? Okay, rock stars with kids are discounted from the challenge.... :cool:
what are you talking about? Obviously, the nose was put there by god, to ingest healthful substances.... :laugh:

My nose just loves to ingest spinach and vitamin c tablets. Shame on Stevie for putting that nasty cocaine up there. :p

Or the guy who sued because he held his Pop-Tart down in the toaster and it caught his kitchen on fire.
Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

Um, great. Did you use your wayback machine yet, set it to "rock star in the mid/late seventies/early eighties" and not do coke? :wavey: or, wait, better set it to "biggest rock act of the late seventies" to really get the full impact. ;)

Nobody said she did ;) However, Stevie's decision forced Mick, John, and Christine to do one of two things: break up or go on without her. If they were going to continue to be a band, which made complete sense after what happened in 1992/1993, it was going to have to be without Stevie, by Stevie's own choice. Just as they were forced to be Fleetwood Mac without Peter, Bob, and Lindsey.
This is where I disagree. We can't really bring Lindsey into the discussion, as he had been out of Fleetwood Mac for five or six years at that point. Rick would probably have come back into the fold if Stevie were there, and Billy would have likely stayed knowing that there was going to be some stability within the group. Sure, Christine wouldn't have been on the road, but she would have been there in the studio. So, I think a lot of the damage can be attributed to Stevie's departure.
Big difference, though. When Lindsey left, the band was still a hit machine with a hit album and even a hit single. Christine and Stevie were still in the band, and they're the two who had all but three of the big hits. With the "Time" band, NONE of the folks fronting the Big Mac were in the band in the shows. Plus, it's not like Billy and Rick were doing a ton of Lindsey's material. I think they did all of two songs from Lindsey and four from Peter. By their second tour, they were only doing ONE Lindsey tune and three Peter tunes. Hell, Bob Welch did like four Peter Green tunes on his last tour with Fleetwood Mac.

Some could even blame Christine. The reason I don't is that, save for a short tour for "The Dance," Christine has stayed off the road. It wasn't Fleetwood Mac she was leaving, it was the road. Christine said that she wouldn't tour anymore, but would continue recording with Fleetwood Mac, which is exactly what she did. Now, if Stevie had stayed off the road, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd totally understand her decision. But, let's face it, Stevie very well couldn't tour as a solo artist if she was still a part of the band, but not touring with the band.

When "As Long As You Followed" and OSOTM weren't hits, it should have been obvious that the big hit days were over for Stevie and the Mac and that they'd do better as a band than as solo artists. Let's face it, BTM was the most successful album any of them, including Lindsey, were involved with between 1987 and 1997. And, their tours were very successful. Fleetwood Mac may not have been a huge hit, but it was viable, which is more than can be said about Fleetwood Mac or Stevie Nicks after she quit the band.

"You" as in "you all." When you've been a part of the Fleetwood Mac on-line community as long as a lot of us have been (nearly ten years here), you tend to notice certain patterns amongst certain fans.

I'm really not a good guy to put to that challenge. I've been around people who smoke, have done drugs, drink excessively, and so on.... but I've never even been so much as tempted. I'm always the sober guy annoyed with everyone else for making idiots of themselves. :shrug:

Ooh, we're agreeing a lot tonight. :laugh:

My father was a heroin junkie and living with that, I've grown to not have a very compassionate view towards drug users. Personal responsibility is not something that magically disappears.

Mine was too. Except I didn't live with it for very long because he died in a car accident when I was six. That messed with my head for quite awhile, and I actually turned to drugs briefly in high school. :distress:

I'm so glad that ****'s over.

Aww, I'm sorry. :o

My father was a lucky bugger. He was a heavy heroin user from the time he was in his early-twenties and the bastard never bit the dust. In 2000, he robbed almost ten convenience stores to support his habit and got sent up the river. And can you believe he got out in four years? It's insane. I want nothing to do with him and haven't even spoken to him in five years.

Ted Nugent :nod:

Just because everyone was doing it doesn't mean they were unaware they could be dangerous! It's not like drugs were invented in the 70s and no one knew you could overdose. Hell, drugs killed Janis, Jim Morrison, Gram Parsons and Jimi Hendrix and a whole host of rock stars before Stevie ever sniffed a line of coke! How could she not know that rock stars could die from taking drugs?

The only thing I would say is that when you're young you think nothing will kill you, so I guess Stevie was like that.

Good one :nod:
Problem is you're more likely to hear tales of excess and debauchery than someone declining to take part in all that. I'm sure I've read about some rock stars that weren't into that whole scene though.

Sorry Johnny I hadn't read your post but yeah, I agree, although I do think it was a case of denial rather than not knowing, as I said in my earlier post.

Are you kidding? I had friends in the business who said Tina was no stranger to coke in the 70's. They claim to have done it with her.

I believe she stayed with the Mac b/c she is loyal to them. She always puts them first before her solo stuff, JMO.

Lee :)

Yeah, especially once her solo career was in the ****ter. :shrug:

Clapton? Pipe dream. If he said "no" to the Rolling Stones, what's gonna make him say "yes" to Fleetwood Mac? Todd Sharp, definitely (and why he never WAS asked, is amazing. In my scenario above, Todd would join WITH Bob Welch. After dealing with Stevie's "hippie/witch" persona, I think that Bob Welch's stage persona wouldn't have been as annoying as prior to his leaving. The Roxy show isn't a good gauge since it was a one-off thing, so Chris might've just had a bad day or a bad bottle of wine.

The chain of events that led to Mick forming the Zoo wouldn't have happened, so Bekka probably wouldn't have been in the picture in 1994. I could picture Martha Davis ditching the Motels for Fleetwood Mac in 1981 (the connection there being the Motels' Marty Jourard's work with Bob Welch on Man Overboard)...the Motels were about at the spot where Fleetwood Mac was during Heroes Are Hard To Find in their popularity by then...and Martha would've probably jumped at the chance to get her music the mass audience of Fleetwood Mac. Imagine Fleetwood Mac having "Only The Lonely", "Envy", "Take The L" and "Mission Of Mercy" as THEIR songs in 1982...I surely can.

Not to mention, any credible doc would not prescribe Klonopin to someone for eight years straight.

No, Ted was into underage girls instead.

And loading up on arsenals

The fact that he would still be a singer and songwriter. Basically, he'd only have been a side man with the Rolling Stones. There really wouldn't be any creative outlet for him with them. And, let's be honest, the Stones aren't exactly the most diverse band, musically speaking. They're brilliant at being the Stones. Eric Clapton, like Fleetwood Mac, was all over the map, musically speaking. Mick, John, and Chris would not only have welcomed his input, but would require it. It would be a win-win. Plus, I think part of Eric Clapton envied what Fleetwood Mac had in terms of a working relationship.
The only reason I brought Bekka into the discussion is that I'm not convinced that they would have asked her to join the band if Christine hadn't retired from the road. Because, I don't believe that they would have hired another female in 1981. I think Mick, John, and Chris wouldn't have been interested in recreating the illusion of the "Rumours" band with new people in 1981. Of course, there wouldn't have been a Zoo, as you mentioned. Still, who's to say that Mick wouldn't have met Billy in 1983? So, there's a good chance that he would have eventually ended up in the fold. My hunch is that Fleetwood Mac would have continued as a quartet for a few years (sorry, I just don't see Bob ever agreeing to rejoin Fleetwood Mac). Then, Mick would have met Billy, introduced him to the rest of the band, and invited him to join.

I think she trusted a doctor who told her - take these pills, they'll help you feel better. I trusted a doctor once too, even though my gut told me not to take the prescription. And the prescription made me much worse. Always, always, always listen to your gut. I've finally learned to.


I think FWM would have been fine without her. Christine is an awesome writer and singer. But it must be destiny..... ;)

And shooting defenseless animals.

He's not a nice man (plus I hate his music) but he's still example of someone who didn't take drugs.

What was your point?

Seriously? :D

Ted should shoot me for spelling defenseless wrong. Me bad.

He loves to hunt old Ted. He's a nasty bit of stuff.

:laugh: :laugh:
you did it again! defenseless! But I wasn't talking about that. I've trained myself to become somewhat immune to spelling errors. 'Course the Klonopin helps.....







:lol:
some people, probably, know their waaaay to crazy already, without adding coke.

****, what's wrong with me tonight?
I need to be whacked over the head with a dictionary obviously!
:laugh:

meh, no big. I have words like that, too. BTW, if you really want to be whacked with the dic, I'm sure Ted Nugent is the man for the job!
And, in other pointless news, it's so weird you say "tonight" when I just got up. It's also weird that my friend brought a tequila shot over when I first woke up, but hey, it was 11:30, and she'd been up for hours.... :eek:

It's 9.30pm here in the UK and I wouldn't mind having a tequila shot right now!