Sadly, I think that the public at large considers the Eagles and the Stones to be real (read: masculine) rock bands, whereas FM is perceived as a "chick band". I think that's a lame assessment, but I believe that perception has dogged them for a long time. The hard core "dudes" continue to follow the Stones and the Eagles- with the Stones continuing to pick up new fans (similar to Led Zep). I think FM's rock image got muddled by Rock A Little, TOSOTM and Lindsey's neurotic weirdness.

Even with that in mind, the Stones and the Eagles have not been singles chart toppers in a long, long time. The Stones new albums generally debut well and then drop from the top twenty fairly quickly. Both bands are all about touring these days anyways.

At least FM released a fresh album, instead of a reason to tour. I think Lindsey's track order killed the album.

Yep - that and the fact that it was too long for most people and he, though I mostly love his work, think his production of La Nicks was somewhat lackluster even in the incorporation of her into his own songs. I can never seem to like that mech. voice he used for her in many of her songs and his. OY!

Wayyyyy to much time on your hands, kills songs, IMO. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Leave it be without having to add 13 guitar overdubs on one track. SYW would have been a greater album than it was. Lyrically, it rocks my socks. Production wise, it's overdone.

As my high school teacher once said, "KISS! Keep It Simple Stupid."

I think the length of the album would have been fine if more attractive songs were at the front. The attention span of today's Britney public can't wait for catchy material. "Murrow" in the #2 slot??!?! What was he thinking???


To address the topic of this thread (which I did not do), I don't think FM would have had the same level of success without Stevie and Lindsey. I have a feeling that Chris & John would have divorced and that would have been the end of it. I'm sure that Mick and John would have continued in some fashion, but it wouldn't have been successful.

I tend to agree that SYW was too long. They could have EASILY cut it down to twelve songs, and it would have been much more cohesive album that one could listen to in one sitting. I think they forgot that sometimes less is more. On a purely pop basis, here are the songs I would have released, only because they're the kind of songs that stick in one's head after a couple of listenings, which is exactly what makes for a great pop album:

What's The World Coming To
Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Destiny Rules
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Running Through The Garden
Bleed To Love Her
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

While I would personally miss a few songs (like "Come"), I think that the above is a much stronger album overall than what was released.

Uh, if Murrow and Come weren't on there, I'd be hella pissed. And you can keep this version of Bleed to Love Her. :nod: I mean, keep it to yourself, off the album.

As I said, I would miss a few songs. I personally think "Murrow" and "Come" would have been better kept on a Lindsey solo album, where being oddball is a good thing. If we could move Lindsey's Mac and solo songs around for this album, I personally would have put "Down On Rodeo" over BTLH, "Murrow," AND "Come." But, the ONE reason to keep BTLH, especially this version, is that it's one of only two that features Christine's vocals. I think they need to keep it as close to the Big Mac as possible.

A point that I haven't disagreed with. :)
I don't know if Chris and John would have divorced. They might have wanted to, but I think one reason they stayed together for so long is that both were financially dependent on one another. Because once there was money, Chris was gone!

Now, if Mick and John continued, which I'm sure they would have, I too doubt that it would have been very successful. However, I think a lot of it depends on who they got. I COULD easily see a situation where Clapton would have joined them to take pressure off of him, as he was still in a fragile place in 1975. He had only made his comeback a year earlier, and was having some difficulites playing star. Being in an actual band COULD have eased some of the burdons a bit. Mick and John, by 1975, were as versitle in musical styles as Clapton, so they could do whatever he needed musically speaking, so it COULD have easily worked out and been huge. I doubt it would have been on the same level as "Rumours," but then how many studio albums really were? There are only a handful that have sold more than "Rumours," so it's safe to say that it's mostly the exception.

I don't want anything on Lindsey's solo records, because that means I will never hear it. :laugh: And I think just because Christine is on BTLH is a poor reason to keep a poor version of a good song on an album when it was just on their last album. So christine is on it, so what? It's still a sucky repeat. IMO.

LOL well, yes, sort of. ;) However it's also true that she did initially only file for a legal separation-- defined in part as:

"Legal separation is a formal judgment issued by a court of law that all the issues concerning a marriage have been resolved (including distribution of property, attorney fees, and personal conduct) with the exception of marital status...A legal separation is desired to set the parameters for dealing with one another while living separate and apart while maintaining the status of being married, and leaving the door open for a reunion/resumption of marriage. Legal separation is not a prerequisite to divorce (dissolution of marriage)."

So this basically shows that Chris was apparently well aware of the $ that was now flowing in to a marriage that was (and had been) rocky for some time. Hence she figured it probably made sense to split what they had sooner rather than later, "just in case"-- and when they did actually divorce, the fact that $ was not really an issue must have made things a bit easier.

However it might also be noted that she could have just filed for divorce right off the bat, but she didn't.
-Lis

Yeah, I totally agree. The inclusion of that song was a lame decision.

I never thought about that. I guess that means that John didn't get a share of her Rumours income(which was huge) since she filed for a separation in 1975, but didn't get divorced until 1978. That's pretty shrewd. Remember in the Q & A, John made a somewhat joking reference to the lack of a pre-nuptial agreement?

I suppose she might be called a sound financial planner. :p I think they split the proceeds from the house, and I guess whatever was in the bank...which was probably not all that much, compared to the fortune she later made from her songwriting royalties. I think I've heard that w/ CA law at that time it took about a year for a divorce to become final (but I'm not sure if this is true?) but if it is, then she filed for divorce just around the release of Rumours, in early 1977-- after a pretty long (about 18 mos) 'legal separation'.



Yeah, he did indeed. When they got married, HE was the star w/ the bigger bank account! ;) Although his other comment about 'You want a what?' struck me as more sad than funny, when you think about what he was referring to. :distress:

-Lis

You people who want to cut down SYW are weird.

You really wish we got less songs? I want all the tunes I can get. There's always the skip button for the ones I don't like (which is none).

You do realise that album has probably got to do us for the next 10 years? :laugh:

The album was too much at once and it just didn't flow well. I think the band should have released SYW as I suggested (maybe with "Down On Rodeo" replacing "Bleed...") and then release a second album about a year later (which would include "Bleed..." so that Chris would still get a credit on the ablum). It's not like they didn't have the material in the can already. This would have satisfied Lindsey's desire to do a double album, while still being practical. It could have even made their tour somewhat more interesting. In the end, we would have had two new Mac albums that would have each been just right in length with better flow between songs.
Hence why I wish they would have done the above suggestion.

I respectfully disagree. The album is perfect as it is.
I also don't think if they had decided to cut more songs from SYW we'd see them so soon (if at all) in the form of a second album.

I agree that SYW could've been shorter (one of the common themes of every review of the album), but I think a lot also had to do with its tracking order.

As for the "shortened" version, I differ as to WHICH songs should've/could've been cut. Some of Lindsey's "quirky" should stay.

My "12" (and running order):

Say You Will
Red Rover
Thrown Down
Come
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away

Peacekeeper
Illume
Murrow
Destiny Rules
Bleed To Love Her
Goodbye Baby

I agree!
But I understand the problems with the running order. I'm still convinced that that got all mixed up in the single-double-album-war. I really believe that SYW would have been a fabulous album in "albumfeel" if they could have cut it up in two discs with 11/12 songs each.....


but released as one package, stevemacd! :thumbsup:

First of all "Miranda" "Illume" "Silver Girl" suck



What's the world coming to
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Thrown Down
Murrow
Smile At You
Running Through the Garden
Steel Your Heart Away
Bleed to love her
Red Rover
Everybody finds out
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

No they don't. And there's plenty here who agree with me.
Fine if you think the running order could be improved or that it would work better as two albums, but, I must say, it's not a particularly great argument just to say the band should cut the songs you don't like :rolleyes:

{raises hand} :thumbsup:

Actually, to my ears, only "Running Through The Garden" is totally "drop-able", but even saying that, I'd never say "it sucks". I just think it would've worked better on a Stevie Nicks solo album.

And, with "My 12", it wasn't exactly easy dropping 5 of the remaining 6 tunes. :cool:

Miranda
Everybody Finds Out
What's The World Coming To?
Say Goodbye
Silver Girl

...are among my faves from the album...but, I think would've been the most expendable if they'd gone the 12 song album route.

I wonder if releasing just 12 tracks was ever discussed? I guess it must have been hard to cut it down from a double to a single disc.

I totally agree about RTTG btw. It does sound more like a solo Stevie track. I still love it though.

No ****!

I'm of the belief that SYW is a bloated mess (with fantastic songs, though) and that it has no cohesion or even a hint of any thought having gone into it as a final product. But there's no way that I would ever prefer 12 songs over 18 songs. That's just absurd. I'll take as much as I can get, as a consumer and as a fan.

I agree and wish they had done a double record with 30 songs. But, my point was that the record buying community as a whole would not go for that.

Interestingly, I think they could have done two sep. records and released them six months to a year apart - I mean they were already on tour and it is not like SYW burned up the charts for them to have had to promote it :shrug:

According to their set list, they were STILL promoting Rumours, not SYW.

As usual, I don't know what everybody's talking about. Record sales? Aesthetic cohesion?

NOTHING would have made SYW sell more. It wouldn't have mattered if it had been a five-album package, a two-album package, a single-album package, or a collection of brass coasters. To hear Fleetwood Mac argue over one disc vs. two was pretty wild & pretty amusing.

The kids who DIDN'T buy SYW refrained from doing so NOT because it was too long or too short or too this or too that: they refrained from doing so because THEY DON'T GIVE A **** ABOUT A GEEZER ROCK BAND that means NOTHING to them or their friends. Get real, folks. It wouldn't have sold 3 million if it had been a "manageable" 12 tracks -- that would have had no effect on its sales at all. The people who bought SYW didn't tell their friends, "Oh, don't buy it because it's too unwieldy, too much music, too variable, too much for a pleasurable listening experience yabba-dabba-doo." And their friends didn't say, "Oh, well thanks for the advice." Their friends, if they said anything at all, probably said, "I wasn't gonna buy that **** anyway. Why are you telling me this? I'm buying System of a Down & maybe the Ying Yang Twins."

Perhaps true, but if SYW had sparked, which was possible though unlikely :shrug: - the public would have been more likely to buy a smaller record for less money.

I've said a 1000 times that they should've cut SYW down to 12 songs, and PUT the extra songs on the BONUS disc.
Result? The fans still get all the songs, but SYW comes out as a MUCH more cohesive effort(which might've resulted in more sales). My friend heard Come, and GAVE me her deluxe cd(I hadn't bought it yet). She absolutely HATED it. :shocked:

That just sounds like a double album to me.

Didn't they sell TWO versions of SYW???????????(they DID, in case you missed that).
Helloooooooooooooooooooo? :lol:

:laugh: That's still a double album though :laugh:

BUT, only the fanatics have to shell out for the second disc, which wouldn't have inhibited, pricewise, sales of the regular SYW disc. Tell me I'm wrong. :wavey:

Only in the same way Rumours is now a "double-album".

I think the only way Say You Will would have sold more is if Christine was on it. I do not think a shorter album would have made much of a difference in sales unless she was on it.

They just should have anticipated the "alt.mainstream" market more and put out singles with more guts. Red Rover, Illume, Miranda, EFO. Songs that could have been a surprise and gain a new interest in stead of putting out safe work that sounds like Mac in the old days. Nobody's waiting on that.

She didn't help out BTM and Time.


...but I see where you are going with it. The five together is better PR than just 4....

Good point, but I think the reviews of SYW would've been better had it been shorter...most reviews I read really slammed its length as being a big negative thing.

Yes. It needed the Queen of Hits to contribute!

Gail

I agree with this 150%. My aunt, who is 52, turned me on to Stevie Nicks, but purely by accident. I'm 27 and the only reason I got into FM/Stevie was because it had some personal meaning for me. I was really f"*ked up at the time and something about Storms grabbed me. Then, the entire Tusk album. My aunt doesn't have a huge collection, so I went out and bought everything I could get my hands on and then ordered some on the net. But my friends all said "why are you listening to that sh*t?" We were all into metal or punk and I still am, but I listen to FM or Stevie more than anyone else. I am the exception. There's no way in hell I'm ever going to turn my friends on to them or her. To everyone else, other than FM diehard fans, they're a washed up, 70s band trying to capitalize on their *once* success and set up their retirement funds. If I told my friends, "oh, but it's cohesive" or "they kept it down to 12 songs" they would look at me like I was insane. I wish that more people could get out of them what I have but the truth is, FM's big ship has sailed and the ones who care now and go to concerts are either the ones like me who they've touched with their music or the ones like my aunt who grew up with it and want to hear their old favorites. The Dance helped them to an extent, but they're still considered *has-beens* by most people.

I love SYW because I'll take any new material however I can get it and in whatever form it's packaged, but I'm a big fan. To the *outside* listener, it was a mess and definitely not cohesive. Come would be laughable I think to someone other than a big fan. So would a lot of the others. They could have cleaned SYW up more and changed the running order or nixed some songs to make it flow better, but it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference in sales if you're not already into FM.

I do not think so because In the Meantime did not sell well at all :shrug: I mean I love CM, but I think there was no saving SYW even if she had been on it. I think, save for some fluke, FM's days of selling millions of records is over. Plus, SYHA had CM on it and it was a hat tip to the days when FM sold millions of records. Yet, even it could not save SYW. Also, Temp. One was not a hit off of The Dance and CM had had no hits of any significance since 1987, though As Long as You Follow, Save Me, and Skies the Limit did chart (I think). So, I think loyal Mac fans bought the record and the same or maybe a little more would have if CM had been there.

Note - I mean no slam on CM - I am just calling it as I see it.

On edit - the five together though would have made a better record - they always do when it is the five.