CarneVaca... Nancy (sodascouts) made the comment that "I Must Go," "sounds more like a man caught in an endless loop of indecision than one who is breaking free," as part of her argument as to why she doesn't care for the song.
To which you whole-heartedly agreed (at least that's how I took your "BINGO" response)... implying that this is what makes the song so terrific.

Well, sure, the point being that he's stuck in this situation and he keeps telling himself in very frenetic way that he must go. Hmmm, who hasn't been there? It makes the song rather brilliant, in my humble estimation. I've always loved this song.

So, once again, I don't understand why... when Lindsey has taken a certain step (an endlessly repeated phrase, in this case), it's EXACTLY the right thing for the song, and another facet of what makes it so great... but if Stevie also uses a repeated phrase, or a particular vocal style, it's somehow a cop-out on her part, and the resulting song is merely "drivel" and "tripe."

Well, buddy, I challenge you to find where I wrote that the repetition of that particular phrase in When I See You Again is what makes me dislike the song. While it doesn't make me like it any better, what really offends me about the song is the awful singing and the stupid words. I understand what you're saying about what the song evokes, and I'm glad it works for you, but to me, it is absolutely excruciating. The words are probably the worst she has ever written next to Silver Girl.

Can you at least understand how, as much as you, personally, can glean from a song such as "I Must Go," and as much as you find enjoyment from it... that's how much a song such as "When I See You Again" can be appreciated by, and moving to, someone else?

Dude, that's fine with me. I've never said anyone was wrong here. I merely said that using the term "unfair" and directing it at the reasons people give for not liking the song to be silly. Say you don't like broccoli. Is that unfair? I don't happen to like Buicks because they're unsightly. Is that unfair?

I'm also reminded of your arguments for "Family Man"... another song which a large amount of people often cite as "the worst" (though I myself happen to love the song).

You and your elephantine memory. But one thing that escaped you then and escapes you still is that I am not particularly fond of the lyrics in that song. I simply believe that he said all he wanted to say, thereby accomplishing what he set out to do, and put beautiful music to it to boot, hence my "simplicity is beauty" coment.

but to completely write it off (aside from Lindsey's contribution to the song), is... in my opinion... a bit short-sighted.

You're going to have to enlighten me here on how the term "short-sighted" applies to disliking a song. That's right up there with "unfair." Really, please explain.

Well, I'm not going to be bothered to read thru the entire thread again, so I won't be quoting any particular comment you made... but you are right, you haven't specifically stated that the "what's the matter, baby" section causes your dislike for the song. Though you did state the the lyrics are "bad," and that section is a part of the lyrics, so I was left to assume (my bad) that this included... or perhaps was due in no small part to... the repetitive phrase.

In regards to "Family Man"... it's true that I never "got" before that you're not particularly fond of the lyrics. I don't recall you every stating that specifically. And since the lyrics... to me, at least... are more important than anything else in any song... my take on your "beauty in simplicity" praise of "Family Man," was that it included the lyrics, as a complete package.

I guess it's possible to appreciate a song almost solely based on the music, but if the lyrics are the weakest link, then the author may as well have left it as an instrumental. To me, at least, since the lyrics are what I respond to most.

Now, as far as my "short-sighted" comment...
In my opinion, the things for which people bash "When I See You Again"... the stark lyrics, the repetitive phrase, Stevie's tattered voice... are all the things that make this song so brilliant. Each is an important facet, and each is... in my opinion... completely intentional.
Just as Lindsey apparently accomplished what he set out to do, in songs such as "I Must Go," and "Family Man," I believe that "When I See You Again" is EXACTLY what Stevie (and Fleetwood Mac, as a whole) set out to make it.

Truly, one needs to look no further than the fact that there were many other songs of Stevie's that they could have used instead. Or that she could have offered them.

The "saving the best material for the solo albums" argument never holds water in my opinion, because I feel that there is no way Stevie would intentionally offer up weak material for Fleetwood Mac... which couldn't possibly accomplish anything other than making her look bad.
(By the way, I am not saying that you implied anywhere here or elsewhere, that Stevie did this... I'm just making a point here.) :)

So I feel that Stevie full-heartedly felt very strongly and passionately enough about "When I See You Again," to offer it to Fleetwood Mac.
And I feel that Fleetwood Mac felt strongly enough to want to go thru the process of recording it, when they could have just as easily said, "what else do you have?"

And it's my bet that this song turned out EXACTLY the way all parties wished it to.

It's absolutely someone's right to say that the lyrics "sucked," or that her voice "sucked," but those particular comments are what I feel are "unfair"... in much the same way as it would be "unfair" to write off "I Must Go" or "Family Man," for weak lyrics or repeated phrases.
The song goes far beyond any of its individual parts.

If someone dislikes it, I respect that... and again, as I said before, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I know I'll never be able to do that.
I just wished to "defend" it, in much the same way as others have defended their favorite songs. :)

We're just all so danged passionate about this music! :D

I hate to jump right in the middle of this, but...

Not to sound rude, Randy, but who are you to decide what is or is not a valid opinion? ANY opinion is valid, if only because it is someone's belief and point of view. And if someone says Stevie can't write or sing, that is their opinion. It isn't fact. Then again, it isn't fact that Stevie CAN write or sing.

I just don't see what the big fuss is about. You like one song that someone else despises. I happen to like WISYA alot, but I also respect the viewpoints of those who do not, because I can appreciate that they do NOT like it.

Just my $0.02 on this overblown thread.

Randy was also stating an opinion. ;) :)

At any rate... since all of our excitement about the new album and tour has somewhat died down, I guess we needed another rousing debate to get everyone's juices flowing.

The debate over "When I See You Again" is an old war-horse. :)

You're calling Stevie a WHAT?!?!?! :eek:


Oh....never mind... :sorry: ...read it wrong. :laugh:

Hmmmmm, proportionately, it appears more than a "handful" of people like WISYA.

We'll argue this forever, because when it comes to matters of taste and opinion there is no right answer.

-Sharon

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Hey, Joe (DownOnRodeo), if you're out there... we need a "When I See You Again" - "tastes great" vs. "less filling" icon! :D :laugh:

You make some good points, but this reminds me of something I once heard - that Lindsey didn't want to sing the last part himself, but that he was "tricked" into it by recording what he thought would be backing vocals and then Stevie and the rest of FM informing him that there would be only his vocals at the end! He protested but was "outvoted." Has anyone else heard this story?

Yup, I heard about it. Stevie herself is the one who confirmed it. ;)

Nowadays, I bet he takes pride knowing that he was the only saving on that track. :D

Ohhh nooo, Nancy! I actually think "The Nightmare" is Stevie's most wildly inventive & unfettered & most uncanny song of all time! It's primordial. I think Stevie's entire essence -- all that windswept Bronte stuff -- is wrapped up inside this one song. I find it all absolutely wrenching, like being careened across the moors in "Wuthering Heights" at rocket speed. Lyrically, it seems to contain hints of the abyss, & Stevie's vocals just kick butt. I love love love "The Nightmare."

Sharon, I think the reason I really love that track is because the arrangement is so gorgeous. It even has a poignant little hint of that early 1970s "Buckingham Nicks" texture in the acoustic guitar & the shaker. But I also love Stevie's vocal because a certain sort of veneer has been dropped; she is emotionally ... ahem ... naked. I really think it's the dizzy high point of the entire album. And then Buckingham comes in for that final stanza, & it's just killer. The first time I heard it was when KMET was previewing the whole album, & I tuned in a bit late, but I heard this beautiful acoustic number being played. It stopped me in my tracks right then & there.

I love all these songs, I think they're a nice change of pace for F.M., and Lindsey's songwriting is just stellar on this album. Kudos to Linds. His songs are what put this album over the top for me. Stevie's songs, while fabulous, are what you'd expect from her, nothing new, or terribly exciting. She shakes it up a bit musically and vocally on Illume but other than that it's kind of like, been there done that. I love Stevie don't get me wrong, but this album is Lindsey's shining moment.

David, you drive me crazy (in a good way)!
You always manage to eloquently convey, in one or two simple paragraphs, what it would take me multiple posts to even just attempt to express.

I am, as always, in awe. :)

I like WISYA, but could totally do without the "baby" word orgy. :laugh:

I love The Second Time because it just fits in so well with that period and I also think she sounds great in it. The only thing about this song that gets me is the bad dub at "Do you remember you took my hand (bad dub) do you remember my friend?

(My writing is jumping around, as I'm tired.)
 

I like WISYA, and I agree with the poster who wrote that her vocal tone is deliberate. I find her voice on this far less grating than on I Sing for the Things, though she uses that same scratchy voice on my favorite version of Lady from the Mountain, and it works for me there.
I love the RAL album. It has a positive energy that lifts me up. I agree that many of the lyrics are less obscure (and intriguing) than her earlier ones, but there are some lines I love, like the "Come back, solemn stranger" one. Her voice has so much punch on this album.
This ought to ruffle some feathers, but I don't think EFO is any more meaningful or catchier than much of what's rocking on the RAL album. I much prefer Imperial Hotel or No Spoken Word. As much as people criticize her voice on this album, I enjoy it more than a few spots on the SYW album. At the starts of EFO and DR, Stevie's voice sounds flat to me in a way I haven't heard since some of my least fave vocals on TOSOTM, such as Alice, Two Kinds of Love, and b-side Real Tears. (Of course, on both the SYW and TOSOTM albums, I like the vocals on most songs.)
Also, IMO one of the great things about the RAL and Tango albums is the unpredictability/uniqueness of her vocals on the first listen. In WTTRS, I love the"This is a dream, right? Deja vu" and "uh uh" (before "well, I thought that you were mine").
I like The Nightmare on RAL because it has the weirdest lyrics on the album. "So about the moon and her sisters/How dare he take them prisoner/Well, if she had flung out her heart against him/Then in all of her wisdom/Oooh, that was a mystery" (yeah, I'll say). Still, like Johnny Stew, I do "get" the songs on this album.
As for Red Rover, originally I preferred it to Come. Now I like the verses on Come more, I am impressed by the guitar on RR more, but I really don't like the chorus in either song. The RR chorus just drags on each listen, and I have no desire to hum or sing along or think about the lyrics.
Christy, since you asked about other songs, I'll add that I cannot stand Chris's songs on Time except for All Over Again, which is my favorite song on the album. I cannot stand Family Man because of the music; I have no problem with the repetitive lyrics or vocals. I like You and I Part II, but not Part I. I think Affairs of the Heart could be much improved. I think Ghosts is one of the best songs on TOSOTM. I could go on with more opinions, but this thread is starting to look more and more like my old "Okay, Confess" one.

- Jake

Some people go to the Grand Canyon and look at it in wonder and amazement and think one of two things:

1) It's one of Nature's phenonemon's. It's beautiful. It's majestic. You could see God's work right here!

2) It's ain't nothing but a big hole in the ground!!

I happen to like When I See You Again....(although my favorite Stevie track on Tango is WTTR...S for those keeping score). Is it her BEST song....no...but again, given the time and circumstances surrounding the recording and writing of this album...I listen to it with a 'sympathetic' ear and heart.

To me, it's another chapter in the ongoing saga of Stevie and Lindsey. It speaks volumes. I believe at this time Stevie was out of Betty Ford and question how Lindsey would 'react' to her in the studio (this was pretty much verified in Mick's book) "Will it be the same...Will it be over...Will your great eyes still say..."

Yes, the Whatsamattababy's throw the song off track, but hell, at this point in her life, she's probably hearing this phrase from everyone. It probably became "monotonous" for her to hear. We're just 'hearing what she's hearing.'

The walking down the halls, the stairs and staring at things...these all symbolize 'obstacles', 'choices' and deciding which is the 'path' to take...things look different now that your 'sober' (at least at that moment)

"If she sees him again....will your very best friend have been replaced by some other"..Again, i'm thinking she's more or less felt she's 'lost' Lindsey at this point in her life...

The last verse about "Dreams" coming and going...but still there is a dream left, pretty self explainatory...when all else fails, we still have our dreams.

And of course, Lindsey finishing the song, whether under protest or not, is very fitting...at least at this point in time, Lindsey is still a part of her dreams...her life.

I've tried to listen to Red Rover and Murrow and 'figure out' what the hell Lindsey is trying to get across...and I admit I'm still scratching my head alot....these are two songs that just don't sit well with me...but i'm not going to say 'it suck' or 'it repetitive (how many times does he say Murrow in the chorus) or whatever.

Frankly, EVERY member of Mac HAS been guilty of repetition in one form or the other...whether it's repetitve lyrics, melodies, rythyms or riffs...but some people respond to those 'hooks' and it reels the listener it...so IMHO, that arguement is POINTLESS!!


Anywho, I will conclude now ('cause I could go on and on :D ) I will just say while When I See You Again, while not 'majestic' is more than a mere 'hole in the ground' and while Red Rover and Murrow are not 'holes in the ground' but far from 'majestic'.:cool:

In either case...KEEP THE LOVE Y'ALL!!:cool: KEEP THE LOVE!!!

Actually the story I heard, which I believe was on sararhiannon.com, is that yes, they told Lindsey that he was just singing backup, but then Stevie "snuck back into the studio and took her voice off."

As a side to this thread also, does anyone think on certain parts of Red Rover that Lindsey sounds very much like Christine? I would say what lines, but I can't figure out most of the lyrics and I'm too lazy right now to look them up. But it's on the high vocal parts.

Tango In The Night as we all know was a record that was recorded during very tense times in the band. I wonder if any of the members were offering up his or her best effort lyricly and musically. In some cases yes (Big Love, Seven Wonders, Little Lies) and in some ways no (You and I Part II, When I See You Again). The two songs just mentioned are tracks that I have listened to many times, but do not find enjoyable. I think that every member of FM at this time had their shining moments and there memonets where it felt like they were merely there and not putting any substantial effort into the recordings.

As for Lindseys stuff on SYW I totally agree that come is a good song ,but the chorus is hard to understand. All I can understand is the part where he says "Cause I know Nobody is else is doing it. I know nobody else is doing too. after that I had to consult the lyrics to understand what the heck is saying.

Oh and The Second Time is one of Fav Stevie Songs.
Matt :)

WISYA
 

"When I see you again" is one of my favorite Stevie songs-and I love the RAL album-Geez I must be weird=:-)

Now I don't like GYOW-never have, it's something about the rhythm of it, I just don't know. Not wild about "Angel" either; or Down By The Railway Station or whatever it's called on Mirage-that one's way too country-sounding for me.

On the new album, Red Rover and Everybody Finds Out I can do without. I didn't like Come til I heard it live and now I love it.

Re: WISYA
 

I absolutely LOVE That's Alright (your railway station song...teehee!!) I think you'd really like the demo and if you are able to find it (if not, i can e-mail it to you). It's called Designs of Love and it's just Stevie, Lindsey and his guitar. I love harmonizing with Stevie and singing it...it's really a great song :nod:

I was in the middle of writing a reply in this thread when my computer went out, my building fell into darkness, the emergency lights kicked in and I had to evacuate in a hurry. Twenty-four flights of stairs, six miles of unplanned walking through sweltering heat and a car ride from a stranger later, somehow this argument doesn't feel as important anymore.

In any case, When I See You Again sucks. It always has. Always will.

And here I was thinking this thread was a matter of life or death. ;)

Glad you're OK.

It isn't?!?
Dang, I didn't get that memo! ;) *lol*

At any rate, "When I See You Again" rocks. Always has. Always will. ;) :D

I am retitling this thread...
 

When I See You Again: Discussion. :laugh:

I seriously thought this thread would have died by now, I had no idea it would open up a debate over WISYA. LOL

WISYA...IMO, is not as bad as I originally thought because it's grown on me a tad...I don't think it's GREATNESS or anything, but like Silver Girl, it takes some time to get used to it, I guess. Lindsey's part makes it for me....along with his gorgeous guitar work at the end. Mostly tho, the song brings TITN to a SCREECHING halt when 95% of the record is so upbeat and so.....80's. LOL That's my MAIN beef with it.

relax, your bitching at WISYA wasn't what caused that electric problems, stop blaming yourself, this wasn't your fault. :wavey:

On the contrary, your irreverent and unabashed Stevie bashing has consequences!

Continue this behavior and worse will come! :cool:

:laugh:

Seriously, glad you all are okay. :cool:

I wouldn't be dissing Stevie anymore if I were you.....

.............it does irrepairable things to your karma.

-Sharon

I tell you what: I would love to have run into the dumbass who caused the problem while I was walking across the bridge to Queens.

This is GREAT input. I'm not going to bother saying anything else, because these are my thoughts exactly.:nod:
(The only exception is WISYA is absolutely one of my favorite Stevie songs!):)

Why do I think you might be referring to the "problem" with WISYA?:)
You may NOT push Stevie off the bridge. She is not dressed to float. (Though I can't recall seeing her with a wet head of hair, so that might be interesting to see.)

- Jake

The Songs!!!
 

First off...CarneVaca...Glad your alright!!! :D
We saw all the ppl walking on the bridge!

About me...we also lost power and this dumb
pc crashed! Nice to be reading you all again!!

IMHO/When I See You Again...is all about Mick!

When Stevie sees him again after their secret
affair had to stop...will it be the same...Mick is
singing/What's the matter baby?/ theoretically!
It just is Lindsey's job... to sing Stevie's words
on this sad little song...must be hard to do!;)