so, lindsey or stevie? who owns this album more?

[Craig]

I say Stevie, I love all of her songs, Lindseys are good but I like Stevies better(it's my nature almost)

[BlueGrass]

Lindsey - he got the production going for him.

[wondergirl9847]

Lindsey...Stevie said it herself...this album is his baby...just like with Tusk. :nod:

[Gazza]

Lindsey

*whispers* His songs are better

[sara1998]

I am the classic Stevie fan, however, no one can dispute that this is Lindsey's best work. This is definately Lindsey's baby, and what a hell of a job he did with it!

Maria

[Christopher]

Lindsey, totally!!...He did a stellar job on all the songs, and even though I prefer Stevie's songs on the CD as a whole- Lindsey brought the house down overall with his production and guitar sensibilities.

[estranged4life]

this album has Lindsey written all over it...So that's who I'm gonna pick...Brian J.

[The Tower]

This album has Lindsey written alllll over it.... an absolute progression from "Out of the Cradle".

However....

The best songwriting and overall impact comes from Stevie's music and passion, so I'll give the award to her (just like Tusk).

ROCK ON, STEVIE!!!!!

[Cristian]

Lindsey Buckingham. This album has his songs as the higlights... even though Stevie's tracks make the most impressive, massive attack to the listener... (impact! that's the word ;)) I think the whole concept is his, and you can see it all over the album. Plus some of his songs are just incredible ("Say Goodbye", "Steal Your Heart Away", "Murrow", "Come", etc.)


Song of the moment - Goodbye Baby

[sodascouts]

Lindsey, no contest.

[Mad4stevie]

It is Lindsey's album, for sure, but I like Stevie's songs better - just as I did with Tusk.

[Phil]

Undoubtedly, as the producer, arranger and architect of the band's sound, this album belongs to Lindsey, that can not be disputed. However, Stevie's songs (and vocal performances) are infinitely superior to Lindseys - no contest.
It has to be said that Lindsey's contributions sound quite dated, even lame alongside Stevie's more contemporary and dynamic numbers. It actually surprised me that many of the album reviews have identified Stevie's songs as being more standard stock rock/conventional but in terms of arrangements and longevity, I consider hers to be the most impressive.

[DrummerDeanna]

Upon first listen I would've said Stevie...simply because I took to her songs right away....as usual...BUT after many more listens...absolutely Lindsey...the production on this album is brilliant...."Come" alone is one damn amazing song...it blew me away...so yeah...Lindsey...

[Rumours]

This cd has Lindsey all over it!

It's not like that is a bad thing.......I do adore Stevie and her songs.....but this cd reminds me of Tusk...both are totally Lindsey's babies.

Stephanie

[macmar71]

Mr. Buckingham;)

[Johnny Stew]

Who owns 'Say You Will' more?

Why, we do, of course! :D

[CarneVaca]

Need I even say it? Lindsey of course.

The album would have been considerably better and more cohesive without Running Through the Garden and Silver Girl. I'm just glad those two are back to back, so I can skip them together. Running Through the Garden could have been saved if not for the 80s gloss in the production. Silver Girl just couldn't be saved.

[seteca]

Seeing as he produced the whole album....!!!!!..........LINDSEY BUCKINGHAM.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

p.s. CV, I totally agree with you, I love every single track on this album except those two. Running Through The Garden is good, but would have been so much better if it didn't have that, as you say, "80s gloss" all over it. I've listened to the whole album straight through about 10 times, and the one track that I didn't like from the first time I heard it and simply hasn't at all grown on me is Silver Girl.

[WindingRoad]

Oh, it belongs to Lindsey. So he gets all the blame!(ducks)

Yes, I may be bored with the older songs, but I sure hope FM plays them at the concert because there's only 4 or 5 songs on SYW that I like. The rest is just plain bad.

And where the heck was Stevie? She's seen what other producers can do with her music. Didn't she ever stop and say, "Hey Lindsey, WHOA! What in the world are you doing to my song!"

Now I understand that video clip where we see Stevie in the booth and hear Lindsey say to her, "Is there anything else about it that you absolutely hate?" (speak up Stevie !!!)

So many of you have been saying that Stevie seemed very unhappy in the interviews on AOL. Now I know why. SHE had already heard SYW.

I keep playing the cd because I'm hoping it'll grow on me. This morning I had it on and my teenage son came downstairs and said, "Mom, can you turn that down, that stuff is creeping me out!" (must have been Red Rover or Murrow playing at the time) I don't blame him, I think a screeching guitar solo was making my ears bleed at the time.

I don't mean to be so negative, it's just that I'm sooo disappointed in this album. :(

Note to Lindsey: Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. (TUSK) (SYW) And if you're going to DO IT ANYWAY, don't take everybody else down with you.

This should have been a Lindsey solo album. But he couldn't get his work out without the FM name behind it. Now the reputation of FM is going to take the fall with him.

(the comments expressed here are not meant to upset anyone, nor am I trying to provoke anybody (like whoever it was who said Stevie should be slapped), this is just my opinion, I'm entitled to it and you are free to completely ignore it if you like. And BTW, I like Lindsey. I just don't like this.

Susieq :wavey:

[FiercestCalmSea]

Lindsey,hands down.This coming from a Stevie fan,lol.This album is so similar to Tusk in that,while Lindsey's songs maybe be a bit much for some people,they have Stevie's songs to balance it perfectly.Only he can produce her songs like that,for sure.I personally love all Lindsey's stuff,as i did on Tusk(ok,well minus It's Not That Funny..cause dammit...It's Not That Good,lol.).You have this amazingly creative stuff from him,out of left field,where Stevie is more straightfoward,but what he brings out of the whole thing is just awesome :)

[diamondsnake]

Stevie's songs are better in my opinion. I think Lindsey's songs are stranger, but strange doesn't always mean good. Stevie is at the top of her game and these songs prove it. Sure, Lindsey's songs are crazy, but Stevie all the way!

PS: Sorry for opening up this old post, I couldn't help but defend Stevie!

[dissention]

Lindsey. His stuff is the most creative and it all flows well together. Stevie has a couple clunkers on there, but her stuff is pretty good.

[chiliD]

It has to be said that Lindsey's contributions sound quite dated, even lame alongside Stevie's more contemporary and dynamic numbers.

{spew take} WHAT?!?!?! :shocked:

Half of Stevie's songs on the album are as old or older than Tusk and you call them "contemporary" and LINDSEY's songs "dated & lame". Who the hell do you think MADE Stevie's songs sound so dynamic? Lindsey, of course! Other than the four Stevie wrote at the last minute, Lindsey's songs are a helluva lot more contemporary than Stevie's.

Lord, I just wonder how much wax build-up some people have in their ear canals.

[jbrownsjr]

I think Christine made the most contribution to Say You Will. Her keyboards and backing vocals are crystal clear on this album. Without her this album would not have even sold 800,000 copies. Murrow shines with her organ chords! I don't know how they are able to do SYW songs without her!

:lol:

[AgainLindsey]

l-i-n-d-s-e-y b-u-c-k-i-n-g-h-a-m!


his prog-metal guitar riffs and lyrics are at the top of his game!!!

displays his thurst for adventure - melodic and inventive

beautifully produced digital sheen!

i cherish this album! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[shackin'up]

well,ehhhh, I'd say ehhh......... :nod:

[CarneVaca]

L(ok,well minus It's Not That Funny..cause dammit...It's Not That Good,lol.))


AAaaaargggghhhh... It's a fabulous song. Some of the best drumming Mick's ever done is on that song. And the layered guitar sounds are brilliant, not to mentioned the anguished vocals. This is sheer brilliance.

[xdreamsunwindx]

Lindsey Buckingham. I didn't even have to think about that one; his songs are clearly the greatest, the lyrics, music, vocals, production, etc, it's all perfect.

[Gazza]

Lindsey of course. The idea that it's his songs that sound dated next to Stevie's is just ridiculous quite frankly.

And where the heck was Stevie? She's seen what other producers can do with her music.

About half as good a job as Lindsey always did, yes.

[Mari]

another vote for Lindsey :nod:

Good music is timeless, btw :cool:

[shackin'up]

AAaaaargggghhhh... It's a fabulous song. Some of the best drumming Mick's ever done is on that song. And the layered guitar sounds are brilliant, not to mentioned the anguished vocals. This is sheer brilliance.


hahaha, fighting windmills Carne, NTF is percepted as one of the worst macsongs on this board. A contradiction that is quite confusing, since so many people here have Tusk as their fave album. And for me ( us?) NTF is a very defining song on that album.

[4Buck]

Buckingham dominates SAY YOU WILL.

Lindsey’s testosterone-driven, turbo-charged power licks and supreme, male-focused production give this album a “guy” ambience -- with less femaleness.

Stevie Nicks’ songs rank with the best here, but Buckingham’s awesome and finest compositions to-date definitely prove that Lindsey Buckingham was "ba!!s deep" in this masterpiece! :)

[cliffdweller]

It is Lindsey's album, for sure, but I like Stevie's songs better - just as I did with Tusk.

I agree, except I think Lindsey's songs are better. HOWEVER, just wait until the next Stevie solo album comes out, I expect great things from her. :nod:

[strandinthewind]

I think the writing on this record is Stevie at her best. For example, I think the song Say You Will is very well written and it just makes me smile and get happy. I think Goodbye Baby is heart wrenching and is a prime example of Stevie's immense talent at evoking emotion while maintaining mystery (do we really know for sure what it is about? ).

BUT, it took LB's magnificent production to get this record off of the ground and his songs are brilliant too. It is almost as if LB ia 1 1/2 times more present than La Nicks because LB wrote and produced his songs and Stevie wrote and demo'd her songs and gave them to LB to produce. Even Stevie says LB just sort of takes her demos and runs with them. Sometimes the final product is very close to the demo and sometimes not. In the end, the album is great and the credit goes to LB as a producer that make great material even better :cool:

[cliffdweller]

hahaha, fighting windmills Carne, NTF is percepted as one of the worst macsongs on this board. A contradiction that is quite confusing, since so many people here have Tusk as their fave album. And for me ( us?) NTF is a very defining song on that album.

I don't like NTF, but I like what it's trying to do. I like the anguish, I like the chorus, I like that the "working-outside-the-boxness" of it, I just don't like it as a whole. Does this make sense? Actually, I think NTF is an offshoot of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" or IKINW is an offshoot of NTF, either way, they're very similar songs it's just that IKINW succeeds in doing what NTF is trying to do.

[cliffdweller]

but Buckingham’s awesome and finest compositions to-date definitely prove that Lindsey Buckingham was "ba!!s deep" in this masterpiece! :)

Thanks for the rather vivd metaphor. :laugh: It really "drove" your point home.

[cliffdweller]

Note to Lindsey: Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. (TUSK)

:eek: Blaspheme!!

[CarneVaca]

I don't like NTF, but I like what it's trying to do. I like the anguish, I like the chorus, I like that the "working-outside-the-boxness" of it, I just don't like it as a whole. Does this make sense? Actually, I think NTF is an offshoot of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" or IKINW is an offshoot of NTF, either way, they're very similar songs it's just that IKINW succeeds in doing what NTF is trying to do.

The songs are definitely related. Who knows which came first? But their position in the sequence is telling. Not that Funny says, "don't blame me, please." There's still some emotional turmoil going on there, and the cacophony of guitar sounds at the end plays into that turmoil. In I Know I'm Not Wrong, the protagonist has made some more progress. There is resignation in his attitude: When he says don't blame me here, he's evolved from pleading, "don't blame me," to being certain he's right: "Don't blame me... I know I'm not wrong." Now compare the sing-songy riff in I Know I'm Not Wrong to the Not that Funny guitar work. The IKINW riff is structured and happy, as opposed to the pull-your-hair-out explosion of noise at the end of Not That Funny.

[Pisces Queen]

For me ~ it's Stevie that shines through on the record. I love Lindsey but his songs just don't hit me like Stevie's do. I find myself skipping through some of Lindsey's work but he does have some treats like Miranda and Steel You Heart Away. But to me Stevie's work flows beautifully from Illume to Good Bye Baby. But that's my opinion. ;)

[face of glass]

The songs are definitely related. Who knows which came first? But their position in the sequence is telling. Not that Funny says, "don't blame me, please." There's still some emotional turmoil going on there, and the cacophony of guitar sounds at the end plays into that turmoil. In I Know I'm Not Wrong, the protagonist has made some more progress.

I agree there. What I find fascinating in the studio version of “Not That Funny” (because the live version is an entirely different thing) is its childish insistency. It’s like he intentionally made this clumsy, lumbering song in which the vocal melody moves obsessively between just a few notes. Not to mention the production, which I think is the closest audio analogy to Jackson Pollock’s methods that anyone making “pop music” has ever created. Those guitars at the end jump all over the place and give me images of Pollock occasionally losing the control he had and just maniacally dripping the paint onto the canvas. It’s like an extremely hurt little child who just needs to get all that frustration out with all that immature ranting. It is less refined than “Silver Springs”, yes, but it’s just as valid form an expression and dare I say it: it acknowledges the darker side of the psyche more unrestrained than Stevie has ever done it. Neither way is better than the other anyway.

In “I Know I’m Not Wrong” the childish has turned into childlike. The anguish has disappeared and has been replaced with naivety. The guitar solo in particular is one of the most beautiful things he’s ever played. There’s very little of his usual obsessive weaving in there, it sounds like a huge load had been lifted off his shoulders. It uplifts me, at least.

So I understand why Gerald and Carne think these two were important for the project; after all “IKINW” was the “Song #1” and eventually was turned into the exploration of the darker side in “NTF”, thus starting the “serious artistic pretentiousness” and the sonic thematic repetition for Lindsey Buckingham.

*out of the show-offy $100 words for a while* ;)

[face of glass]

Other than the four Stevie wrote at the last minute, Lindsey's songs are a helluva lot more contemporary than Stevie's.

I don't think anyone's less contemporary than the other here. Stevie writes songs like she's always written, the only thing that influences them is her getting "older and wiser" and that's not necessarily relative to what's going on right now. But she knows how to appeal to audiences of different ages through the mainstream production, what with all those comments about selling albums to the "10-27 year-olds" (which I do see as hilarious but choose not to make a big fuss about).

Lindsey is the same he's ever been; taking things from the various decades of rock music ('60s-'90s) and utilizing these to follow his diverse pop eccentric schtick.

___________________________________________

On SYW, LB deals with emotions ranging from obsession to lightweight, from uplift to violence, from longing and relieved to everything in between. Whereas Stevie's songs may appear deeper at first, Lindsey tries to communicate to us through putting two or more emotions into the same song so that we have a network which can give us a lot more than what it first seems to be offering.

So therefore I won't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than Lindsey" argument. They're equally complex and deep, just in different ways. Point repeated ad infinitum.

If I take out the production aspect I think this is pretty much 50-50 for the two. LB has the highest points in "Murrow" and "Red Rover" but he also has the lowest in "Peacekeeper" and "Steal Your Heart Away". Stevie is consistent throughout, even "Silver Girl" is fine with me.

The Nicksheads might be willing to think of this album as another mercy offering to Lindsey, in that SN isn't overtly active during this tour and is giving LB more room because of the public neglect. It is a possibility, given that SN's voice didn't change the GOS songs in any significant way. But it is more likely that Lindsey hasn't deemed her necessary for his music since Rumours in that she has very little harmony parts in the material Lindsey has put out since then. Maybe it was because the songs were already considered complete; that's why she was only slapped on in there superficially.

It remains to be seen whether the next possible album is a true group effort in between LB and SN in terms of Lindsey's songs too. Stevie hasn't been given much room on a Lindsey song since "Go Your Own Way". We'll see if he's still willing to work with her to that extent.

[CarneVaca]

On SYW, LB deals with emotions ranging from obsession to lightweight, from uplift to violence, from longing and relieved to everything in between. Whereas Stevie's songs may appear deeper at first, Lindsey tries to communicate to us through putting two or more emotions into the same song

Yes, the emotion on Stevie's songsis worn on the sleeve, so people can connect with it more readily. And even a song like Illume, which I admit has grown on me, had to be subtitled (9/11) just in case people didn't figure out right away what it was about.

So therefore I won't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than Lindsey" argument. They're equally complex and deep, just in different ways. Point repeated ad infinitum.

I agree with this assessement. Lindsey is more sophisticated in how he presents his emotions in songs. His lyrical ideas, though at times so overtly simplistic on the surface, tend to hide a level of complexity that takes some time to get to. And even though he mostly uses fairly traditional chord progressions (excepting some of the Tusk songs) the approach is unconventional.

he Nicksheads might be willing to think of this album as another mercy offering to Lindsey, in that SN isn't overtly active during this tour and is giving LB more room because of the public neglect.

As I've pointed out before, Lindsey has always gotten plenty of kudos for his on-stage presence, more so since the Dance, but I believe the critics really started to pay attention to his stage antics during the Tusk tour. He's a vibrant performer.

Also, let's cut Stevie a break. She had had hip replacement, and from what I understand, though common, it is a serious operation.

[jbrownsjr]

Yes, the emotion on Stevie's songsis worn on the sleeve, so people can connect with it more readily. And even a song like Illume, which I admit has grown on me, had to be subtitled (9/11) just in case people didn't figure out right away what it was about.



I agree with this assessement. Lindsey is more sophisticated in how he presents his emotions in songs. His lyrical ideas, though at times so overtly simplistic on the surface, tend to hide a level of complexity that takes some time to get to. And even though he mostly uses fairly traditional chord progressions (excepting some of the Tusk songs) the approach is unconventional.





As I've pointed out before, Lindsey has always gotten plenty of kudos for his on-stage presence, more so since the Dance, but I believe the critics really started to pay attention to his stage antics during the Tusk tour. He's a vibrant performer.

Also, let's cut Stevie a break. She had had hip replacement, and from what I understand, though common, it is a serious operation.

A hip replacement is very serious. I bow to her for what she's doing!

[strandinthewind]

The Nicksheads might be willing to think of this album as another mercy offering to Lindsey, in that SN isn't overtly active during this tour and is giving LB more room because of the public neglect. It is a possibility, given that SN's voice didn't change the GOS songs in any significant way. But it is more likely that Lindsey hasn't deemed her necessary for his music since Rumours in that she has very little harmony parts in the material Lindsey has put out since then. Maybe it was because the songs were already considered complete; that's why she was only slapped on in there superficially.

It remains to be seen whether the next possible album is a true group effort in between LB and SN in terms of Lindsey's songs too. Stevie hasn't been given much room on a Lindsey song since "Go Your Own Way". We'll see if he's still willing to work with her to that extent.

Come On. Do you think WB would have released this record is Stevie had not come on board? The same WB that poo poo's Lb's GOS material in the first place. Do you think LB could have sold out or come close to it the huge venues on the first leg of this tour. Based on his relative unknown status when compared to the FM name and more importantly Stevie Nicks name, the anser is no - LB could not have been this big time. Do I think Stevie took pity on LB and agreed to do this on that basis? No. I think that may have been part of it, but I think deep down SN and LB like being with each other - end of story for me at least.

Also, I am not saying LB needs to be big time rock and roll, I am just saying he seems to covet it for whatever reason. :cool:

Finally, Stevie has always harmonized on almost all of LB's stuff and harmonizes on SYW in many ways. So, I do not get your point.

[face of glass]

Also, let's cut Stevie a break. She had had hip replacement, and from what I understand, though common, it is a serious operation.

Oh yes. It's not necessarily all that twisted anyway. ;)

The ultimate female rock survivor marches on. :)

[strandinthewind]

A hip replacement is very serious. I bow to her for what she's doing!

I am unsure she has actually had it replaced, but she severely injured it last year at this time and she was hardly able to walk without pain uch less twirl on stage in five inch boots. Someone in the band told me that.

[face of glass]

Come On. Do you think WB would have released this record is Stevie had not come on board?

I don't think WB would release anything by FM these days if it didn't involve Stevie Nicks.

The same WB that poo poo's Lb's GOS material in the first place. Do you think LB could have sold out or come close to it the huge venues on the first leg of this tour.

No, no and no. Fleetwood Mac has never been just Mick and John plus the singer/songwriter/instrumentalist, the chemistry between the writers/main performers has always been a big draw.

Based on his relative unknown status when compared to the FM name and more importantly Stevie Nicks name, the anser is no - LB could not have been this big time.

I agree. And the tour is the main reason for them to get the money and he needs it now and takes full advantage of the situation.

Also, I am not saying LB needs to be big time rock and roll, I am just saying he seems to covet it for whatever reason. :cool:

Sure, he benefits from touring but I think his heart isn't entirely into it by now. It's into the studio recordings and that's where he doesn't compromise, at least to the extent that has been suggested by some of you. IMO, of course. :)

*digression* So he gets the money from the tours and gets to put out an album of material almost the way he wants it to be. He knows it's the nostalgic audience who come to the shows anyway and most of them don't care a damn about the music of SYW. Whereas Stevie seems to be almost too concerned with sales and target groups right now. *digression*

Finally, Stevie has always harmonized on almost all of LB's stuff and harmonizes on SYW in many ways. So, I do not get your point.

But she doesn't add a thing to those IMO. It doesn't matter if she's there or not, except for possibly the first single.

What I'm speaking about here is the absence of group spirit, of the real band feel in those tracks. It could have been more present if Lindsey had taken Stevie into account when he was first forming those tunes but he didn't because they were solo material.

On "GYOW" it's not just Lindsey's personality that's expressed, it's of the entire group and Stevie, as Marcello Carlin pointed out, is out-singing LB in there.

He hasn't been interested in real group work for a long time and that is because he wanted to shake off the Rumours package. And I think that the point when Stevie can significantly influence Lindsey's songs will come only when Lindsey takes her into account before starting to work on the arrangement.

[strandinthewind]

I pretty much agree with everything you said with the sole exception of "Whereas Stevie seems to be almost too concerned with sales and target groups right now." Clearly LB is interested in sales ane the money and fame that comes with it. If he was not, he would have released his record on the net and sold whatever it sold :shrug: He did not do that. Instead, he went back to FM. Why? Because FM can sell more than he can on his own and he likes the high life (no pun intended :laugh: ).

I do not fault him for this. :cool:

[sodascouts]

Sure, he benefits from touring but I think his heart isn't entirely into it by now. It's into the studio recordings and that's where he doesn't compromise, at least to the extent that has been suggested by some of you. IMO, of course. :)

I get the entirely opposite impression. When he performs onstage, I see a man who is putting his heart and soul into giving the best performance possible.



On "GYOW" it's not just Lindsey's personality that's expressed, it's of the entire group and Stevie, as Marcello Carlin pointed out, is out-singing LB in there.

I have to disagree with you and Mr. Carlin. Lindsey dominates that song, not only for the obvious reasons but because the attitude is solely his - as Stevie has repeatedly (and tiresomely) insisted.


He hasn't been interested in real group work for a long time and that is because he wanted to shake off the Rumours package. And I think that the point when Stevie can significantly influence Lindsey's songs will come only when Lindsey takes her into account before starting to work on the arrangement.

No arguing with that. Luckily he seems very interested in working with Stevie "from the ground up" on the next album. Now it's up to Stevie to decide whether she will enable him to take her into account by agreeing to working with him to that extent. In that way, her influence on how his songs will be crafted is huge! lol

[face of glass]

I pretty much agree with everything you said with the sole exception of "Whereas Stevie seems to be almost too concerned with sales and target groups right now." Clearly LB is interested in sales ane the money and fame that comes with it. If he was not, he would have released his record on the net and sold whatever it sold :shrug: He did not do that. Instead, he went back to FM. Why? Because FM can sell more than he can on his own and he likes the high life (no pun intended :laugh: ).

I do not fault him for this. :cool:

If he was truly interested in album sales, I think he’d try to make his music sound closer to what is the public idea of the typical FM sound. I think Stevie’s solo music fits into this category a lot better than Lindsey’s all-over-the-place diversity.

What I tried to say is that he knows he can get a lot of money but he also knows he gets it from touring. SYW’s overall release didn’t matter that much; FM could still have gone on tour and advertised that even though they wouldn’t have had anything genuinely new to play.

I don’t think he tried to aim for grand commerciality with any of his SYW songs and he didn’t need to compromise in that part. He compromised on the double album issue but even that was most likely because of band’s internal politics, not because he was afraid of the lack of sales. It doesn’t matter to him whether it would be 300,000 or 900,000 copies sold.

I think FM allows for him to have this tortured artistic schtick and also earn some significant money at the same time. And while the whole “two bedroom” deal was inadequately stated, I think he did raise a valid point there. FM are in a position in which it doesn’t hugely matter what the content of their next studio album is; they get their money from the tours. So they had nothing to prove with SYW and I don’t think they truly needed to cave in on its content. Stevie seemed very worried about it but I think her worries, while understandable, were also a bit off-base.

[face of glass]

I get the entirely opposite impression. When he performs onstage, I see a man who is putting his heart and soul into giving the best performance possible.

It's understandable. I guess I'm just a bit too cynical because of all of that choreography. It does put at least some of his stage antics under my suspicion.


I have to disagree with you and Mr. Carlin. Lindsey dominates that song, not only for the obvious reasons but because the attitude is solely his - as Stevie has repeatedly (and tiresomely) insisted.

I was speaking of the musical side here mainly. And I think Stevie's vocals are the necessary counterpoint to LB's attitude in "GYOW".

Now it's up to Stevie to decide whether she will enable him to take her into account by agreeing to working with him to that extent. In that way, her influence on how his songs will be crafted is huge! lol

SNL shipper hopes? ;)

(I wish for the true return of that chemistry too, to some extent at least.)

[sodascouts]

I don’t think he tried to aim for grand commerciality with any of his SYW songs and he didn’t need to compromise in that part. He compromised on the double album issue but even that was most likely because of band’s internal politics, not because he was afraid of the lack of sales. It doesn’t matter to him whether it would be 300,000 or 900,000 copies sold.


Odd how at first he seemed unconcerned about lack of sales, then all of the sudden was worrying about it once the double album was secured. Why? Because he was afraid they wouldn't make enough money touring. Specifically, that Stevie would cut the tour short. Which made me go "hmmm...."

[sodascouts]

SNL shipper hopes? ;)
(I wish for the true return of that chemistry too, to some extent at least.)

Actually, they're Lindsey's hopes, as I stated. So, do you believe Lindsey himself is a "shipper"? That's quite a bold statement! lol!

[strandinthewind]

I do not place all of that on Stevie - after all in that same doc. she stated that unlike the other three, she had no family and did not need to worry that much about it. I think she is just in the market more to know what to do to get a record out :shrug: She has been at this rodeo about three times more than LB and is successful at it. They are all worried about the sales of the record because the record companies advance millions of $$$$ in anticipation of it.

I think LB wants to be the creative genius who puts out something very inconventional and then have that be a huge hit. That way his is vindicated for want of a better word.

[strandinthewind]

Specifically, that Stevie would cut the tour short. Which made me go "hmmm...."

I do not think Stevie would cur the tour short. I think they agreed to a 40 show first leg and then see what happens after that. So, she would be within what she agreed, etc. Certainly, that has not been the case so far on this tour.

[CarneVaca]

I think Stevie was under the illusion that they were going to sell millions of SYW copies, whereas Lindsey seemed to be more grounded on the idea that the money would come from the tour. In that sense, he was more of a realist.

[strandinthewind]

I think Stevie was under the illusion that they were going to sell millions of SYW copies, whereas Lindsey seemed to be more grounded on the idea that the money would come from the tour. In that sense, he was more of a realist.

If she based he figures on history, (TITN, The Dance, etc.) she was being realistic. But that is what she was talking about when she said we have to do everything we can to ensure that. Personally, I think they all wanted to hit one out of the ballpark and, sadly, that just did not happen even though SYW is really good. I think the lack of blockbuster sales does not come from the lack hits. I mean 15 or so years ago, SYHA and SYW would have been top ten IMO. I think that they are just too old to relate to the younger music buying public, just as Stevie said.

[face of glass]

Actually, they're Lindsey's hopes, as I stated. So, do you believe Lindsey himself is a "shipper"? That's quite a bold statement! lol!

"We were quoted out of context, it was great". ;)

Yeah, he's a shipper all right. He's been a shipper since the Dance. :o

Out of here for today, at last.

[jbrownsjr]

Come On. Do you think WB would have released this record is Stevie had not come on board? The same WB that poo poo's Lb's GOS material in the first place. Do you think LB could have sold out or come close to it the huge venues on the first leg of this tour. Based on his relative unknown status when compared to the FM name and more importantly Stevie Nicks name, the anser is no - LB could not have been this big time. Do I think Stevie took pity on LB and agreed to do this on that basis? No. I think that may have been part of it, but I think deep down SN and LB like being with each other - end of story for me at least.

Also, I am not saying LB needs to be big time rock and roll, I am just saying he seems to covet it for whatever reason. :cool:

Finally, Stevie has always harmonized on almost all of LB's stuff and harmonizes on SYW in many ways. So, I do not get your point.

This point you made, had me think a little on how much guts Christine had to release her own album. LB should have released GoScrews long ago and wrote differently for SYW. I agree with you, without Stevie Nicks, FM loses a lot of fans and a lot of sales and WB gets real nervous. Face it, without her there are no advances like 750k a concert coming from any record company or any promoter.

Personally, I like LB's solo stuff and would have loved to have another solo album. This is one of the first album's I have prefered more SN tunes than LB. And yes, I thought SN did a lot more harmonies on this album than any other.
Christine will soon find out if she can sell. And we will find out if she can still compose good songs. I would like to think both!

[face of glass]

Personally, I think they all wanted to hit one out of the ballpark and, sadly, that just did not happen even though SYW is really good.

I still think they didn't have any huge success because the three core songwriters aren't together anymore. That's the main reason anyway. :sorry: for breaking promises. ;)

[strandinthewind]

I still think they didn't have any huge success because the three core songwriters aren't together anymore. That's the main reason anyway. ;)

ITA - that hits the nail on the head.

[4Buck]

I do not place all of that on Stevie - after all in that same doc. she stated that unlike the other three, she had no family and did not need to worry that much about it.



Nicks does have a family to take care of, though. Do you think she’d run the annual Arizona heart benefit and charge fans $1000 (WOW!!!!!!!!!) per ticket if she didn’t need some financial help? She’d just contribute her money (if she had a lot) to it to help the world AND her pa, more like generous upstart singer Clay Aiken is doing.

Nicks' beloved father’s been ailing for 30 years. The costs add up. Her ma’s elderly. Her brother is out of work whom she’s supporting (last job I heard he had he sold T-shirts at Buckingham’s OUT OF THE CRADLE TOUR), is married and has a family, and Nicks is putting a niece through college. And her cocaine habit, the one that bankrupted Mick Fleetwood, had left her pretty dry.

Both Buckingham’s affluent parents have passed away and left him money. He also makes money up-front with production, as well as song-writing royalties. He saved his money early on, and his investments grew exponentially. And since the documentary was made, the Buckingham’s decided on having another child (that they knew they’d have to put through college and had enough money for) and Buck bought out almost a fourth of the seats in September 2003 of Chicago’s SOUND STAGE at $150/ticket to give away free to fans. Buckingham's still very wealthy and generous!

[dissention]

Nicks does have a family to take care of, though. Do you think she’d run the annual Arizona heart benefit and charge fans $1000 (WOW!!!!!!!!!) per ticket if she didn’t need some financial help? She’d just contribute her money (if she had a lot) to it to help the world AND her pa, more like generous upstart singer Clay Aiken is doing.

Nicks' beloved father’s been ailing for 30 years. The costs add up. Her ma’s elderly. Her brother is out of work whom she’s supporting (last job I heard he had he sold T-shirts at Buckingham’s OUT OF THE CRADLE TOUR), is married and has a family, and Nicks is putting a niece through college. And her cocaine habit, the one that bankrupted Mick Fleetwood, had left her pretty dry.

Both Buckingham’s affluent parents have passed away and left him money. He also makes money up-front with production, as well as song-writing royalties. He saved his money early on, and his investments grew exponentially. And since the documentary was made, the Buckingham’s decided on having another child (that they knew they’d have to put through college and had enough money for) and Buck bought out almost a fourth of the seats in September 2003 of Chicago’s SOUND STAGE at $150/ticket to give away free to fans. Buckingham's still very wealthy and generous!

Whoa. That's all I can say to that post. Whoa. What horse****. :lol:

Jess Nicks doesn't need any of his daughters money, he used to own Compton Terrace in AZ. She stopped doing coke in '86, so I don't see how it could've obliterated her fortune. The Arizona Heart Benefit is a way to make a lot of money for a cause. Why not hold an annual benefit to get support for a charity? So, everyone who takes part in a telethon is poor, eh? Sorry, but Clay Aiken doesn't have a tenth of Stevie's steak, doll. I won't even touch her brother because I can't stand him, but it says a lot about her wealth if she can afford to employ her own brother. She's had five albums that have sold at least platinum, two that have gone gold, she's headlined high-grossing tours with the Mac and on her own, she gets a large chunk of money for the Mac albums, she gets songwriting royalties every time a song of hers is played on the radio and every time one is covered by another artist, and she stand to make $20 million from the current tour. She's hurting for money? I think you're hurting for logic.

I can't help but notice the derogatory way in which you speak about Stevie as a woman and a person. It's positively shocking.

[strandinthewind]

Whoa. That's all I can say to that post. Whoa. What horse****. :lol:

Esp. considering La Nicks' made how much off of the Dixie Chicks' cover of Landslide - not to mention she has youred essentially and on average every other year for about 30 years. Not to mention her Dad was the President of Amour Meats and Greyhound. Hmmmmmmmmmm

[dissention]

Esp. considering La Nicks' made how much off of the Dixie Chicks' cover of Landslide - not to mention she has youred essentially and on average every other year for about 30 years. Not to mention her Dad was the President of Amour Meats and Greyhound. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Yup. I think it goes without saying that she's the wealthiest one of the bunch.

[Johnny Stew]

Nicks does have a family to take care of, though. Do you think she’d run the annual Arizona heart benefit and charge fans $1000 (WOW!!!!!!!!!) per ticket if she didn’t need some financial help? She’d just contribute her money (if she had a lot) to it to help the world AND her pa, more like generous upstart singer Clay Aiken is doing.

Nicks' beloved father’s been ailing for 30 years. The costs add up. Her ma’s elderly. Her brother is out of work whom she’s supporting (last job I heard he had he sold T-shirts at Buckingham’s OUT OF THE CRADLE TOUR), is married and has a family, and Nicks is putting a niece through college. And her cocaine habit, the one that bankrupted Mick Fleetwood, had left her pretty dry.

Both Buckingham’s affluent parents have passed away and left him money. He also makes money up-front with production, as well as song-writing royalties. He saved his money early on, and his investments grew exponentially. And since the documentary was made, the Buckingham’s decided on having another child (that they knew they’d have to put through college and had enough money for) and Buck bought out almost a fourth of the seats in September 2003 of Chicago’s SOUND STAGE at $150/ticket to give away free to fans. Buckingham's still very wealthy and generous!Stevie does donate money out of her pocket to charities (such as the American Heart Institute and the City Of Hope), however, if you also hold a benefit concert and charge more for tickets, you stand to raise far more money AND raise awareness for said charities.
Stevie has also donated the royalties to several of her songs over the years, both to charitable organizations and to friends-in-need.
I don't think her altruism can be questioned.

As for Mr. & Mrs. Nicks... they have always been rather affluent, and I doubt they rely THAT heavily on Stevie's financial contributions. Though she's certainly given her parents money over the years... or at least helped them *earn* money, by donating memorabilia to Mrs. Nicks' Silver Springs Emporium store, when it was in operation, and by putting the publishing rights to "Silver Springs" in Mrs. Nicks' name.

And, at any rate, the point Stevie was making was that Lindsey, Mick & John all have young children that they need to worry about providing for. Health-care, dental-care, school tuition (assuming none will attend public school, and that Molly doesn't), college tuition, and so on.
I'm sure they probably all have insurance, but I don't believe the music industry has a healthcare plan, so things like that would all come out of the pockets of the artist.

Hence Stevie cautioning Lindsey to remember that they all have families they need to worry about.

[Johnny Stew]

Oops... I was typing my response as dissention and strandinthewind were posting theirs. Sorry for the redundancy, folks! :)

[chiliD]

...I don't believe the music industry has a healthcare plan...

If I'm not mistaken, they all belong to the Musician's Union Local whatever...the Union handles the healthcare benefits.

[Johnny Stew]

Thanks for clarifying that, chili! :)

[jbrownsjr]

If I'm not mistaken, they all belong to the Musician's Union Local whatever...the Union handles the healthcare benefits.

It's like SAG or WAG. They do indeed have it. It's paid for by the dues to enter these unions.

[Johnny Stew]

Lindsey's songs are his and 50% of Stevie's songs are his.

Definately Lindsey. He is the genius, don't deny him that.I'd be the last person to deny Lindsey of the "genius" title (although I don't think he is "THE" genius in Fleetwood Mac), but I still have to take exception with him being credited for 50% of the appeal of Stevie's songs.

Imagine, if you will, if fans said that the only good parts about Lindsey's songs, are Stevie's backing vocals.
I imagine you'd find that statement to be rather incredulous and akin to blasphemy. :)

Lindsey is "the chief architect of the Fleetwood Mac sound," no doubt about it, but I think it's unfair to give either him or Stevie credit for an entire half of the appeal of the others' music. The same goes for Christine.

[Siri Ruane]

Lindsey. It was originally gonna be his solo album anyway and he deffinetly put enough work into it.

[MikeVielhaber]

Stevie's songs are better in my opinion. I think Lindsey's songs are stranger, but strange doesn't always mean good. Stevie is at the top of her game and these songs prove it. Sure, Lindsey's songs are crazy, but Stevie all the way!

PS: Sorry for opening up this old post, I couldn't help but defend Stevie!


defend stevie??? almost everyone here is saying her songs are better (which i disagree with) and i think maybe one person besides the guy who hates it all (which you can just discount altogether) said anything bad about a stevie song.(up to this poijt in the thread i haven't read it all yet.) i think lindseys songs are brilliant......and people say well strange isnt always good......i think its just that strange alot of times goes over peoples heads. so if you're up there...you get it....and you love it. else you dont.

[Hawkeye]

I t nk Stevie's songs are better on SYW. But I also say that those great Stevie songs wouldn't be so great without Lindsey's production. So I'll say both.

[dontlookdown]

i'm probably the only one here who thinks that Stevie's work on Say You Will is for the most part, mediocre. I love Illume and Thrown down and Smile At You, but I think the rest of her tracks feel pretty weak.

Without a question, this is Lindsey's project - without him, this band would be worthless today. Thank God for Lindsey Buckingham - some how, he managed to bring my favorite band back to life and prevented them from becoming an embarrasing nostalgia act.

Say You Will is a brave gutsy album. I love that he made the record with his art in mind, selfishly, and beautifully. I can't stand the fact that Stevie "prayed to the commercial Gods..." - you'd think by now, she'd have the confidence to make music that's good - for only that reason. It shouldn't matter whether or not it sells to the masses. The Fleetwood Mac core fan base is loyal - and they will listen. This band doesn't need radio anymore - as long as they keep making records that have integrity.

[HomerMcvie]

Even though Stevie had way more solo hits, Chris had way more Mac hits, and, afaik, no humongous coke problem. Rolling Stone's top moneymaker's list had her at #35, with 24 million(those #s are from memory, so don't ride my butt if I'm off by a number).
I still think they didn't have any huge success because the three core songwriters aren't together anymore. That's the main reason anyway.
Yep. The balancing factor is gone. I hope her new album kicks major ass.

[sulamith]

Here we go again and again and again.....it's always this way.

There's a heavy implication from some that if you prefer Stevie's songs, then you aren't very smart and just don't "get it", and then from still others that if you prefer Lindsey's songs then you are an egghead just wanting to besmerch The Goddess that is La Nicks.

::rolleyes::



It's all a matter of taste, and people like what they like. Pitting them against each other is an exercise in futility.

-Sharon

[face of glass]

Imagine, if you will, if fans said that the only good parts about Lindsey's songs, are Stevie's backing vocals.
I imagine you'd find that statement to be rather incredulous and akin to blasphemy. :)

And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your Own Way” their favourite Lindsey song anyway? There’s this woman in there who has pretty loud vocals. Wouldn’t that have something to do with it, along with the fact that it’s THE Lindsey song to be connected with Stevie’s drama game?

Stevie sings on 30% of Lindsey’s Fleetwood Mac songs. So if that makes the rest derivative crap for some then phooey. You didn’t say that, it’s my imagination running free again. ;)

Lindsey is "the chief architect of the Fleetwood Mac sound," no doubt about it, but I think it's unfair to give either him or Stevie credit for an entire half of the appeal of the others' music.

Just as it is unfair to say that Fleetwood Mac equals Stevie Nicks. ‘S right.

The reason as to why I give Lindsey 50% of the credit is because of the overall conception of sound he has.

Pet Sounds is considered Brian Wilson’s album even though the other Beach Boys are singing on it and there’s plenty of legendary studio musicians, such as Hal Blaine, playing on it. While there was significant outside influence for the album there always needed to be the main creative force, the one who initiated most of it.

Now Fleetwood Mac is a band, I’m not going to deny that. That’s a big part of their appeal. But even so I could see Lindsey throwing Mick, John and Chris out of the instrumental picture in some of the tracks and putting on the OOTC treatments (c’mon Gerald, just complain about the drum sound yet again ;)).

Not to mention that the three veterans of the band always considered themselves as the rhythm section. Remember what David wrote?

Christine was never Keith Emerson or Billy Joel. Her keyboards on FM albums didn't occupy a central place like the playing of those guys. In fact, the parts she recorded on most of the songs were generally a subtle addition to the rhythm, not a lavish piano arrangement in the spotlight. Even on "Songbird," you could argue (& I do) that the piano arrangement & performance are a subdued rhythm guitar effect (which helps it blend so nicely with the actual acoustic guitar on the track).

I agree with that one. And I also think that Chris very often favoured non-intrusive keyboard tones. She never used anything harsh, she never wanted to be flashy. It wasn’t her thing and I respect her for that, BUT if it had been just her performing the songs on a keyboard I might have missed out on FM altogether. I don’t fall for her playing that much because it doesn’t grab me by the neck and demand my attention, it rather just sits there and waits for me to pay attention to it. Yes, maybe I’m just a callow youngster. But the reason I first latched on to “Don’t Stop” wasn’t because it’s a well-written blues shuffle, it was because of that guitar which kicks my butt out of my bed in the morning. The same goes for “YMLF”, “Oh Daddy”, “Over My Head”, etc. LB isn’t afraid of the flash in the instrumental area but he also knows the subtleties very well.

So if we take the UK section of the Rumours line-up as “just a rhythm section” (blasphemy, I know) then I don’t think it was their job to constantly grab the common listeners’ attention. They provided the solid backbone, and I think it’s mainly the musicians who will appreciate their contributions over the Americans. Now the persons who grab the attention of the common listeners are Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks.

I’ve said it before, even though I find Stevie an outstanding vocalist her solo music leaves something to be desired. It is essentially an inferior, mainstreamisized take on the sound that she first tried out with Fleetwood Mac. That’s why I think her solo career is still in Fleetwood Mac’s shadow, just because she’s the one who clings to the old perceptions of FM the most.

‘S all my opinion and has been discussed to the point until your eyes have started to bleed.

But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.

The same goes for Christine.

And I don’t think Christine’s songs are that much more devoid of Lindsey’s influence.

I will never deny that CM is the best songwriter of the band in the classic sense and I will never deny her own ideas for her own keyboard parts.

She was supposedly the one in the band who was the most against experimental tendencies, however, and I fear that if Lindsey wasn’t playing on her tracks I might have thought she was just another inferior version of Carole King.

When I listen to the piano demo of “Never Make Me Cry”, for instance, I think it’s a good song with heartfelt emotions. But when I listen to the final take on Tusk, the lyrical meaning changes completely when that backing track sounds like it’s a huge, empty, distant hum. The mix of intimacy (in Chris’ vocals) and distance is what makes that track heartbreaking for me.

That’s what I think anyway. I don’t think it’s that dubious to call Rumours et al. Lindsey Buckingham’s albums. It’s the same as focusing on “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac” when the band featured two other skilled singer-songwriter-instrumentalists. And it’s the same to those Nicksfans who latch on to Stevie’s harmonies in other people’s songs. Now that the reissues came out some people seemed to start loving tracks they had previously only liked because of Stevie’s vocals having been added to the Rumours songs.

Putting the other band member over the other is unfair, definitely. And I don’t think pitting the songwriters against each other is terribly wise, especially when you consider that they have different styles.

All I was trying to establish here was that there’s a valid reason to respect Lindsey Buckingham’s work to the extent that some of the stubborn Buckheads are doing it. Those guitars and arrangements can mean as much as anything Stevie does in her songs. They do that to me, at least.

And considering the fact that many people who listen to rock and roll still focus on the singer or the guitarist and not the rhythm section, then there’s nothing surprising in this “injust LB-worshipping”. IMO, of course.

Now let’s just wait ‘til the Nicksheads and the McVie troupe get to this. :)

[face of glass]

Sharon, I thought you were content with being a FOLAS and didn’t even want to try to change anything here. ;)

There's a heavy implication from some that if you prefer Stevie's songs, then you aren't very smart and just don't "get it"…

I do not wish to imply that at all. What I’ve been trying to do is to shatter the common belief that Stevie is the deep one and Lindsey is the shallow popmeister who just likes being weird for weird’s sake.

There is nothing inaccessible in Lindsey’s work and no high-brow attitude, at least I haven’t detected any. And I’m not trying to enforce something like that at all.

“Family Man” as an example here again; the lyrics stink to high heaven, yes. But he wouldn’t put those weak lyrics to a final track if he didn’t deem them appropriate.

If you sang those lyrics in an overtly serious tone then I would hate it. But put them through the voice treatments and it’s a pure pop perversion according to the fine traditions of the Beach Boys’ Love You album.

There’s lots of other layers in there than the one that strikes most people’s ear first. But it doesn’t mean that Lindsey’s more artistic and deeper than Stevie. They do their things in different ways and still move me almost equally.

They both have songs that can be instantly appealing and they both have songs that can be esoteric and take a while to get used to but that’s the great thing about their work.

So that’s why I won’t buy into that aspect of the fight at all, in spite of my incessant criticisms.

I need them both in my life, period. :)

[shackin'up]

Now Fleetwood Mac is a band, I’m not going to deny that. That’s a big part of their appeal. But even so I could see Lindsey throwing Mick, John and Chris out of the instrumental picture in some of the tracks and putting on the OOTC treatments (c’mon Gerald, just complain about the drum sound yet again ;)).

Not to mention that the three veterans of the band always considered themselves as the rhythm section.


;) back. :D

I just tend to disagree, The GOS-songs just have something sparkling going on, so are stevie's on SYW, due to the tremendous interaction between the three instrumentalists. Illume, RTTG, EFO, Come, Miranda, with the OOTC-treatment? I don't see it. not without losing a lot of the energy. Or Linds should buy Mick's Sonic Foundry-sample-CD.:D
But then again: Think of John's contributions on the whole album. Lindsey has NEVER put in such killerbasslines on solo-albums as john did this time.

Hey, He's my hero, but we have to keep ourselves sharp and critical!

[The Tower]

AAaaaargggghhhh... It's a fabulous song. Some of the best drumming Mick's ever done is on that song. And the layered guitar sounds are brilliant, not to mentioned the anguished vocals. This is sheer brilliance.

"Not That Funny" is really, really, REALLY bad.... I would almost categorize it as unlistenable. That and "I Know I'm Not Wrong" are staaaanky!

[The Tower]

Without a question, this is Lindsey's project - without him, this band would be worthless today. Thank God for Lindsey Buckingham - some how, he managed to bring my favorite band back to life and prevented them from becoming an embarrasing nostalgia act.

Well, I don't think he prevented them from becoming an embarrassing nostalgia act (witness "Time"), as much as brought them back from the dinosaur record dust bins. Then again, Fleetwood Mac has never had the same level of loserdom as bands like Chicago, REO Speedwagon, and Styx :eek: :lol:

I really like "Behind the Mask" and still to this day think it's very underrated.

[Johnny Stew]

And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your Own Way” their favourite Lindsey song anyway? There’s this woman in there who has pretty loud vocals. Wouldn’t that have something to do with it, along with the fact that it’s THE Lindsey song to be connected with Stevie’s drama game?In all actuality, I can barely hear Stevie on "Go Your Own Way."
On the live versions, certainly... but not on the album version. The backing vocals are so homogenized, that you can't make out ANY of the three vocalists (excepting Lindsey's lead vocal over top).
So if fans cite that as a favorite based on Stevie's backing vocals, then they must have far better hearing than I do.Just as it is unfair to say that Fleetwood Mac equals Stevie Nicks. ‘S right.

The reason as to why I give Lindsey 50% of the credit is because of the overall conception of sound he has.It's absolutely unfair to give Stevie all of the credit for the band's success.
Lindsey is the studio wizard behind their sound (though certainly not belittling Ken Caillat and Richard Dashut's hand in that), Christine has been the one responsible for most of their biggest radio hits, and Stevie's been the one whose charisma has largely been responsible for Fleetwood Mac's bankable identity.

But to give any one of them HALF of the credit for the band's success is utterly unfair.I’ve said it before, even though I find Stevie an outstanding vocalist her solo music leaves something to be desired. It is essentially an inferior, mainstreamisized take on the sound that she first tried out with Fleetwood Mac. That’s why I think her solo career is still in Fleetwood Mac’s shadow, just because she’s the one who clings to the old perceptions of FM the most.Ironically, the reason Fleetwood Mac has often been considered "uncool" by the masses, is that their sound is considered woefully mainstream, and certainly Stevie isn't the only one who would be responsible for that.

‘S all my opinion and has been discussed to the point until your eyes have started to bleed.

But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.

I don’t think it’s that dubious to call Rumours et al. Lindsey Buckingham’s albums. It’s the same as focusing on “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac” when the band featured two other skilled singer-songwriter-instrumentalists. And it’s the same to those Nicksfans who latch on to Stevie’s harmonies in other people’s songs. Now that the reissues came out some people seemed to start loving tracks they had previously only liked because of Stevie’s vocals having been added to the Rumours songs.

Putting the other band member over the other is unfair, definitely. And I don’t think pitting the songwriters against each other is terribly wise, especially when you consider that they have different styles.

All I was trying to establish here was that there’s a valid reason to respect Lindsey Buckingham’s work to the extent that some of the stubborn Buckheads are doing it. Those guitars and arrangements can mean as much as anything Stevie does in her songs. They do that to me, at least.

And considering the fact that many people who listen to rock and roll still focus on the singer or the guitarist and not the rhythm section, then there’s nothing surprising in this “injust LB-worshipping”. IMO, of course.

Now let’s just wait ‘til the Nicksheads and the McVie troupe get to this. :)I see a LOT of people who are generally Stevie fans, giving Lindsey a lot of credit for his talents, and his skills as both a guitarist and a producer.
He gets a lot of respect these days... which he should, and which is long overdue.

But my question is always going to be, why that has to come at the expense of the other members.

I mean, look at it this way... how many of Lindsey's biggest fans, will only begrudingly admit to liking one of Stevie's songs. And, only then, because of Lindsey's contribution to said song?
As if Stevie had nothing to do with at all.
"Lindsey made 'Gypsy' what it is."
"'Dreams' would be nothing if it weren't for Lindsey."
And so on and so on.

And how many times have we heard that Fleetwood Mac sucked after Lindsey left (a comment that folks like myself, chiliD, and David, will argue against until we're blue in the face)... implying that the band can't possibly be any good without Lindsey there to help them.
It's the same when Stevie fans make the same claim.

Really, there's really nothing wrong with having your favorite member, and loving their contribution to the band or to a particular song (Stevie's harmonies on the outtake of "Oh Daddy," for example, or Lindsey's guitar on "Gypsy," etc.)... but to say that that member is 50% responsible for a song being so good, or damn-near entirely responsible for the band's success, is a bit of a stretch. Whether it's being said by Stevie fans or Lindsey fans.

My opinion is this... if an artist's own fans don't feel confident enough in praising said artist's talents, without belittling the talents of someone else, then that's a pretty sad thing.
But that's just my opinion.

[teedee]

[QUOTE=face of glass]If he was truly interested in album sales, I think he’d try to make his music sound closer to what is the public idea of the typical FM sound. I think Stevie’s solo music fits into this category a lot better than Lindsey’s all-over-the-place diversity.



But he is just as interested in album sales because, he did not release his solo cd that he stated if only 300,000 ppl heard , he would of been happy with that. He didnot release his solo material as he intended it to be heard, he compromised and made it a fm album, . When you stated he doesnt compromise his songs to that fm sound on his solo material, WELL LINDSEY JUST RELEASE YOUR SOLO STUFF PLEASE. He hopped on the FM train, and there lies the compromise. when WB said lindsey we have an idea how to get your music out to a larger audience, make it a FM album. i had wished that he would of just released it as a solo lp, and then gone into the studio with fm later on, and start off fresh with both stevie and lindsey in the studio together. because now, the same is going to happen, stevie WILL release her solo album AND SHE WILL TOUR , but i think that for the next FM album they should wait until they all can work together on the songs. So it will be a full group collaboration.

[teedee]

I do not think Stevie would cur the tour short. I think they agreed to a 40 show first leg and then see what happens after that. So, she would be within what she agreed, etc. Certainly, that has not been the case so far on this tour.


But with the double cd, in order to not lose money , he was stateing that they would have to tour longer etc... and he couldnt take that chance that stevie wouldnt want to do more than the 40 dates. so money matters to him, just as much , whether its sales of cds. or money from touring. its all money in his pocket one way or another. if it truly didnt matter, we would be listening to GOS, and lindsey would still be living in the same house and not rebuiling , lol.
not directed at you strand.

[teedee]

I think Stevie was under the illusion that they were going to sell millions of SYW copies, whereas Lindsey seemed to be more grounded on the idea that the money would come from the tour. In that sense, he was more of a realist.



I dont think stevie felt they were going to sell millions, its a nice thought to think but, i think she meant that if this tour is successful ( from the doc) lets just go with the feeling and tour as long as we are having fun with it.

[teedee]

I think Stevie was under the illusion that they were going to sell millions of SYW copies, whereas Lindsey seemed to be more grounded on the idea that the money would come from the tour. In that sense, he was more of a realist.


Stevie never has a problem with going out on tour , she knows what its all about and has done it with every album, plus with FM.
so touring for stevie is not an issue, its what she loves to do, too bad she has a bad hip, but i tip my hat to her for doing it, class act..


I dont think lindsey was being the realist, only when he realized that the double cd was gonna cost him money in the end, was he being realistic, when he realized if stevie didnt want to do more than 40 dates, and he couldnt risk it, then he was being realistic. Stevie was being concerned when she stated you all have families etc.... if this was a solo cd for lindsey i would say go for it , put your money where your mouth is and go for it. but in a group effort you have to consider whats best for everyone, not just what he wanted. personally if he had pulled some of these songs on syw and kept them for a solo, because he owned the masters, and just contributed a quarter of whats on syw, then i wished he had, because we would of got syw anyways and gos.

[teedee]

Nicks does have a family to take care of, though. Do you think she’d run the annual Arizona heart benefit and charge fans $1000 (WOW!!!!!!!!!) per ticket if she didn’t need some financial help? She’d just contribute her money (if she had a lot) to it to help the world AND her pa, more like generous upstart singer Clay Aiken is doing.

Nicks' beloved father’s been ailing for 30 years. The costs add up. Her ma’s elderly. Her brother is out of work whom she’s supporting (last job I heard he had he sold T-shirts at Buckingham’s OUT OF THE CRADLE TOUR), is married and has a family, and Nicks is putting a niece through college. And her cocaine habit, the one that bankrupted Mick Fleetwood, had left her pretty dry.

Both Buckingham’s affluent parents have passed away and left him money. He also makes money up-front with production, as well as song-writing royalties. He saved his money early on, and his investments grew exponentially. And since the documentary was made, the Buckingham’s decided on having another child (that they knew they’d have to put through college and had enough money for) and Buck bought out almost a fourth of the seats in September 2003 of Chicago’s SOUND STAGE at $150/ticket to give away free to fans. Buckingham's still very wealthy and generous!




The AHI is a benefit concert, she raised money for a good cause , and donated the proceeds. And i am sure that stevie does donate her own money as well as her time.
as for all the other facts you so stated, i would recheck some of them, lol..

and if lindsey is so well off , as he should be, then why is or was money such an issue for him in the end,, he himself, as wealthy as he may be, stated himself, that he couldnt risk it , if stevie didnt want to tour more than 40 dates, because he has a family to raise and a house to pay for. we all know stevie, had a bad drug habit, thats not secret, we all know that Mick made Mick go bankrupt, (that wasnt steviesfault) I dont know why your making money an issue as if lindsey is richer than any of the others, if he is thats great, but stevie has also been clean since the mid 80's and she has continued to tour since and do well . If anything i think stevie is involved because she loves the idea of the mac being back together, but she also has a successful solo career all along. she truly love s to be on stage entertaining its what she loves to do. as lindsey loves the studio.

[Hawkeye]

I agree with Johnny abouot Go Your Own Way. On the studio version you can't hear her at all. Second Hand News would be a song that if someone said that was their favorite Lindsey then you'd have more of an argument of it's because of Stevie's background vocals and then still that could be untrue too.

[teedee]

[QUOTE=face of glass]And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your




But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.


wow so you must not be too much into the value of lyrics then.


also, stevie doesnt claim that her solo material is to be different from FM material.. her solo career is just another avenue to get more of her songs out there. its lindsey who claims to want to be experimental and so on and good for him, now lets just hope he puts his material out. he wants a different sound so then go for it, i do find it funny that when talking about Mixing the cd, he wants something thats sounds different for syw and i think thats great, but then when you look on ootc , hmmmmm,, who did some of your mixing linds,,,, chris lord alge, (spelling?) and ootc was his best solo material, IMO

[glitter_fades]

Then again, Fleetwood Mac has never had the same level of loserdom as bands like Chicago, REO Speedwagon, and Styx :eek: :lol:

I really like "Behind the Mask" and still to this day think it's very underrated.

I agree on REO in loserdom, but, sorry, so is BTM. The current Styx yes, but not the 1996 reunion...even without John on drums. That Todd guy is a great drummer. When the band toured with Dennis in '96, it was huge like the Dance was a year later. Too bad those guys can't get along with each other like FM is doing now. Without Dennis, Styx is like FM without Lindsey. That's why they have to tour now with REO on the same bill. As for Chicago, they've never been the same since Terry Kath died. The original brass section stands tall but the new guitar players never held their own. Peter Cetera's replacement is OK. I never liked PC anyway. In the 80's he took over and went too much to the generic power ballad, but Chicago in the 70's was unmatched. I'd still go to see them today if they came around again, just for the horns. Does that make me horny? :laugh:

What was the question? Oh yeah, Lindsey 40%, Stevie a very necessary 30% and John's bass rates 25%. That leaves Mick 5% for making nice nice with LB again.

[SteveMacD]

I have to disagree with you and Mr. Carlin. Lindsey dominates that song, not only for the obvious reasons but because the attitude is solely his - as Stevie has repeatedly (and tiresomely) insisted.

Personally, I have to disagree with this. That was a great band song. I don't think it would have been the same had Mick and John not been going through some of the same things as Lindsey. I hear the guys playing just a little harder on that song than any other song from "Rumours."

[Cammie]

:woohoo: :cool: Lindsey's SYW work is brilliant!!! :D
Say Goodbye is adorable! We'er the losers... :shocked:
we dated LB's songs by demo default! :sorry:Sky :(

[diamondsnake]

I agree with Johnny abouot Go Your Own Way. On the studio version you can't hear her at all. Second Hand News would be a song that if someone said that was their favorite Lindsey then you'd have more of an argument of it's because of Stevie's background vocals and then still that could be untrue too.
Well, this is my favorite Lindsey song, and I am a Nicks fan all the way. Stevie's vocals make the song rock! I am sorry, I just can't see how someone can think her voice is not magic. Songs like SHN, Oh Daddy, Gold, etc. all benefit from her voice. And while these songs were recorded in the late 70's her voice was so powerful. Words can't describe it. Another song where Stevie just completely outshines Lindsey is Frozen Love. He starts out singing the song and then Stevie chimes in by echoing "You go forward!!!" in a raspy, powerful sort of way and all I can think is, Lindsey who?

But I could say ths same thing about Lindsey Guitar on Stevie's songs. Without his little guitar solo in the middle of RTTG, it would not be my favorite song on SYW. And without Lindsey crazy voice distorting thing he put on illume, I would not love the song as much. I just love when Lindsey's voice sounds all feminine and then Stevie's voice echos in a deep and raspy tone. So, he adds to her songs, like she adds to his.

And as far as whoever said Christine's songs would sound like average pop without Lindsey, I don't think so!

[SteveMacD]

The reason as to why I give Lindsey 50% of the credit is because of the overall conception of sound he has.

Now Fleetwood Mac is a band, I’m not going to deny that. That’s a big part of their appeal. But even so I could see Lindsey throwing Mick, John and Chris out of the instrumental picture in some of the tracks and putting on the OOTC treatments (c’mon Gerald, just complain about the drum sound yet again ;)).

I always thought OOTC (and "Tango" for that matter) suffered because of the electronic drums. Especially for an album that came out in 1992. I mean, who'd want to listen to an album with a drum machine when Nirvana was more than willing to kick your ass with a real drummer? For me, there's nothing better than the band all playing at their best ("Oh Well" from FM Live comes to mind). OOTC, while a great album, still falls short.

And I also think that Chris very often favoured non-intrusive keyboard tones. She never used anything harsh, she never wanted to be flashy. It wasn’t her thing and I respect her for that, BUT if it had been just her performing the songs on a keyboard I might have missed out on FM altogether.

You've obviously not heard anything Christine did before 1975. Her keyboard playing was much more, for lack of a better word, flashy compared to what she did with Lindsey. Heck, she even did a bit of flashy soloing on the "Behind The Mask" tour. And, for the record, some of my favorite Chicken Shack songs are pretty much just Christine and the rhythm section.

I don’t fall for her playing that much because it doesn’t grab me by the neck and demand my attention, it rather just sits there and waits for me to pay attention to it. Yes, maybe I’m just a callow youngster. But the reason I first latched on to “Don’t Stop” wasn’t because it’s a well-written blues shuffle, it was because of that guitar which kicks my butt out of my bed in the morning. The same goes for “YMLF”, “Oh Daddy”, “Over My Head”, etc. LB isn’t afraid of the flash in the instrumental area but he also knows the subtleties very well.

Then you're listening to the wrong Mac songs! Check out "Mr. Wonderful." Sure, it's a blues album, but Christine's playing totally stands out. Get the live recording from the tour prior to the release of "Bare Trees." Christine's keyboards not only grab, but the kick serious butt. For some reason, she almost totally quit being interesting on the keyboards when Stevie and Lindsey joined.

And I don’t think Christine’s songs are that much more devoid of Lindsey’s influence.

I don't hear much difference between Christine's songs on "Penguin" and her songs on the 1975 album. And, I think it could be argued that some of her best songs were recorded prior to Lindsey's involvement. "Get Like You Used To Be," "Mean Old World," "I'd Rather Go Blind," "Morning Rain," "Show Me A Smile," "Homeward Bound," "Spare Me A Little," "Remember Me," "Did You Ever Love Me," "Believe Me," "Why," "Heroes Are Hard To Find," "Come A Little Bit Closer," "Skies The Limit," "Save Me," "Hollywood," "I Do," and "All Over Again" were great songs that had nothing to do with Lindsey.

She was supposedly the one in the band who was the most against experimental tendencies, however, and I fear that if Lindsey wasn’t playing on her tracks I might have thought she was just another inferior version of Carole King.

This is my biggest problem with Christine, actually. She actually (per Bob Welch) could be sarcastic to the experimental. I don't think the comparison to Carol King is all that apt. In some ways, I see the similarities. However, Christine's best known as a singer/keyboardist in a rock band. Carole King was a songwriter turned singer/songwriter.

As for the comparison between the "Rumours" band and Peter Green's FM, it really doesn't work, as Peter was the only singer/guitarist who had hits prior to 1975. On the 1971 "Greatest Hits" package, 10 out of 12 songs were Peter's. So while there were two other guitarists/vocalists, it was really, in the public eye, only about one person. With the "Rumours" band, it's not so clear. Christine had the most hit singles, Lindsey had the most enduring single (GYOW), and Stevie was the star.

[David]

And how many times have we heard that Fleetwood Mac sucked after Lindsey left (a comment that folks like myself, chiliD, and David, will argue against until we're blue in the face).You're damn right!

Fleetwood Mac didn't suck until after Christine left!!

[David]

Her keyboard playing was much more, for lack of a better word, flashy compared to what she did with Lindsey. .... Sure, it's a blues album, but Christine's playing totally stands out. .... Christine's keyboards not only grab, but the kick serious butt.

Uhh . . . Christine McVie, right?

[sodascouts]

“Family Man” as an example here again; the lyrics stink to high heaven, yes. But he wouldn’t put those weak lyrics to a final track if he didn’t deem them appropriate.

If you sang those lyrics in an overtly serious tone then I would hate it. But put them through the voice treatments and it’s a pure pop perversion according to the fine traditions of the Beach Boys’ Love You album.


Ah, yes. Anything bad about it was deliberately bad. This is a great all-purpose excuse - not just for Lindsey, for anyone! My hair looks ratty today? Why, perhaps I intentionally made it look straggly and frizzy as a commentary on the shallow nature of today's beauty-obsessed society! Either that or I ran out of detangler.

[sodascouts]

And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your Own Way” their favourite Lindsey song anyway? There’s this woman in there who has pretty loud vocals. Wouldn’t that have something to do with it, along with the fact that it’s THE Lindsey song to be connected with Stevie’s drama game?

Who are these "certain Nicksfans" you are referring to, that think so highly of GYOW for those reasons? This is the first I've heard of it! Anyone who is into "drama games" would probably puff up all indignantly at GYOW, much like Stevie does, instead of gushing about her wonderful background vocal - which frankly isn't even all that prominent! Not sure where you're getting all this from, but I think you just might be in possession of a misconception, lol.

Edit: Well, OK, I see diamondsnake is one, but who else? lol

[sodascouts]

My opinion is this... if an artist's own fans don't feel confident enough in praising said artist's talents, without belittling the talents of someone else, then that's a pretty sad thing.
But that's just my opinion.

Ouch!

Edit: And let me add another 'ouch' to make the post go over the ten character minimum!

[dissention]

Ah, yes. Anything bad about it was deliberately bad. This is a great all-purpose excuse - not just for Lindsey, for anyone! My hair looks ratty today? Why, perhaps I intentionally made it look straggly and frizzy as a commentary on the shallow nature of today's beauty-obsessed society! Either that or I ran out of detangler.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:wavey:

I like Family Man, but it's such a cheesy, ****ty song. I think Lindsey thought it was actually good, too. How wrong he was.

[dissention]

But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.

I've gotta disagree. The emotion of a Stevie song comes from the lyrics and the performance. It's all in the way that she conveys the words she's written, not the way Lindsey noodles to them. Lindsey's guitar and the other elements form the band simply add atmosphere to the core of the song that helps better define it. I mean, with the exception of WISYA, everything Stevie has done elicits some emotion from me. I've said a million times that I don't believe all of her stuff is up to snuff, and it isn't, but that raw emotion is always there in her lyrics and her voice, no matter how bad the production or music is. You can distinguish a real artist from one who relies on others when you hear a lousy song but it still connects with you. To give anyone credit for the emotion that comes from a Stevie song is blasphemy in my eyes. It's all Stevie. The rest is just icing on the cake; the sugar, if you will.

[face of glass]

The GOS-songs just have something sparkling going on, so are stevie's on SYW, due to the tremendous interaction between the three instrumentalists.

I guess I do tend to undervalue them on the album a bit, due to the fact that Mick is pretty much doing the usual 4/4. Granted, that’s what he’s done for most of his career but with some interesting variations, up to Tusk anyway.

I don't see it. not without losing a lot of the energy.

Mick and John are the wheels and the suspension to Lindsey’s engine, so it’s like a car. The rhythm section OOTC is like one of those fast Japanese bullet trains. Too clinical for some, maybe, but it does its job.

Think of John's contributions on the whole album. Lindsey has NEVER put in such killerbasslines on solo-albums as john did this time.

John is good throughout but I think it’s curious that the one of the killers is too overshadowed by the other instrumentation. It’s “Illume” I’m talking about, of course. I think he’s very important in “Smile At You” too. With the rest I don’t think it would be a huge difference if a studio player had been used. Yes, it would lose the classic Mick & John groove but would it necessarily change the conception of the songs?

Not to mention that David, for instance, criticized the sound of bass as being too clinical on SYW. Lindsey may not take that aspect into account that much these days. There’s some great bass on “This Is The Time”, for instance, from Mitchell Froom, but once again it’s very inaudible in the overall mix.

Ooo the Christine fans will hate that. Actually I hate that and I'm not her biggest advocate.

Sharon, when I said the whole “inferior version of Carole King” thing I spoke as a person who doesn’t regularly listen to mainstream female songwriters. I also spoke as someone who has never heard a single song from Rumours on the radio in his home country. I arrived to that album with very little preconceived notions. The first things that grabbed me were Lindsey’s guitar and Stevie’s voice. A bit later I did learn to appreciate Chris’ songwriting and playing but I think that if Lindsey and Stevie hadn’t kicked my sorry butt first, I might not have given the album another chance.

I’m very glad I learned to love Chris and her work but given my pedigree, I don’t think it would have happened if not for me paying attention to Lindsey’s work at first.

Funny how the non-Lindsey produced song Why, often tops polls of people's favourite Chris song. Just a thought.

The only poll I’ve seen it topping so far is the Legacy poll (which included all the FM songs, btw). I don’t think it’s ANY better than any other song of hers. It just has strings on it, which is a rare occasion on a Fleetwood Mac album, and it immediately seems to become a huge favourite for everyone. Hell, even “Frozen Love” could be accused of the same.

Chris wasn’t all built by Lindsey anyway. Her music is as great on Time as it’s ever been and I’m sure she’ll show LB and SN a thing or two with Meantime.

Ironically, the reason Fleetwood Mac has often been considered "uncool" by the masses, is that their sound is considered woefully mainstream, and certainly Stevie isn't the only one who would be responsible for that.

The Rumours-era Fleetwood Mac have been cited as the West Coast adult rock mafia, the soft-rock clan, inoffensive wallpaper music for the coke-addled yuppies. But what hasn’t too often been stated is that they initiated that style, and yet it was just another facet of their overall canon (so to put them solely into that box is, IMO, being short-sighted).
Lindsey Buckingham, Richard Dashut and Ken Caillat invented a new way of producing a female singer-songwriter like Stevie Nicks. If Stevie hadn’t worked with these gentlemen, she would have most likely been given the typical ‘70s production for songstresses who sang these “feminine” topics; a rudimentary acoustic guitar, a piano, a bunch of strings and that would have been it.

Messrs. B, C and D came up with a very sophisticated style relying on fine vocal harmonies, the subdued rhythm section and the sparkling guitar. I always shake my heads when I see people speaking of “Trouble” and “Soul Drifter” (for instance) as soft rock. For me it’s the same as calling Burt Bacharach’s finest ‘60s productions muzak. To me it feels like an insult, even, especially when you consider the sophistication and the arrangement details within. For me those are songs that transgress the rigid genre borders and step into the realm of classic accessibility.

Now what Stevie Nicks did was run along with that sound with less sophistication while attuning it even closer to the mainstream. It was her and Christine who were, in the public eye, the hitmakers of Fleetwood Mac, after all and that’s why they both felt it was necessary for them to follow the public illusions of what Fleetwood Mac was supposed to be; i.e. the sound of Rumours.

Stevie wasn’t with Lindsey anymore and with Lindsey she had originally established the borders of her music. She wouldn’t really try to break those when she was solo. SN is a smart businesswoman while being a honest writer as well and I respect that in her but I think she sometimes plays it too safe.

… how many of Lindsey's biggest fans, will only begrudingly admit to liking one of Stevie's songs. And, only then, because of Lindsey's contribution to said song?

Name me names. I don’t follow this pattern. I don’t think CarneVaca has stated something like that. And I haven’t seen anyone else doing it here, not even in this thread.

I’ve always thought that Lindsey needs something to work with in the first place when arranging and if that something is worthless then his contributions will possibly be worthless too. I don’t think he made “Dreams” entirely what it is but I think he interpreted Stevie’s original intentions in a way that the song could appeal to people. That’s why it was #1 in the US.

And how many times have we heard that Fleetwood Mac sucked after Lindsey left (a comment that folks like myself, chiliD, and David, will argue against until we're blue in the face)... implying that the band can't possibly be any good without Lindsey there to help them.

The critique that I’ve directed at the BTM and Time line-ups is nowhere near as harsh as the critique from most people. I’ve mainly criticized them for being closer to the soft-rock image than anything Fleetwood Mac has done with Lindsey Buckingham and that is because Lindsey wasn’t there to give the band his unique fusion of new wave and the values of classic rock (or pre-new wave, however you prefer it). And also because the band failed to take the bluesier direction that Rick Vito could have led them into.

I think they’re both good albums but I don’t find them the legendary lost masterpieces like you and the post-Rumours fanatics do. And that speaks more of my listening background, and your high appreciation for Bekka Bramlett and Billy Burnette on Time speaks more of yours.

I tend to think of it like this: if I still was a novice with no pedigree in “AOR” whatsoever and was given the entire FM catalogue since 1975 to be listened to, I would most likely take an instant liking of the albums that have significant Lindsey involvement. And hell, that’s what I was once. I listened (and I still do) to the underground noise and the rebellious outcry, the anti-thesis of everything that Fleetwood Mac was supposed to be. If BTM or Time had been my first touches with FM I might have given up on them altogether. That’s just me, anyway.

But my question is always going to be, why that has to come at the expense of the other members.

My 50-50 credit split equally between Stevie and Lindsey has never referred to bandwork. It has referred to the songwriting, the things that are appealing in the song itself, to the common listeners, without the obvious banal trappings. I don’t think Stevie has always had the skills to make her songs like that and that’s why she has needed outsiders’ help. And Lindsey Buckingham is the one I’d rather see her working with.

Lindsey and Stevie would have been successful as a duo even without Fleetwood Mac, all that the Buckingham Nicks album suffered from was poor promotion. I do think the success would have been somewhat smaller. But on Buckingham Nicks Lindsey’s production abilities are already on full display, as is Stevie’s songwriting which didn’t lose its widespread public appeal until the ‘80s, after which the roles of the producers have been even more emphasized.

My opinion is this... if an artist's own fans don't feel confident enough in praising said artist's talents, without belittling the talents of someone else, then that's a pretty sad thing.

I haven’t been belittling Stevie, I have been stating my opinion on what I find attractive in the tracks she’s on. And I think I’m not totally biased here and I think my experience can be related to the common listeners. To people without the knowledge of the historical baggage or of the soft-rock format I think Fleetwood Mac will stand out first from the pack. And that is because of Stevie Nicks’ performance skills AND Lindsey Buckingham’s playing.

I wasn’t trying to say that the band was secondary; they weren’t. But they didn’t want to stretch out or stick out in the instrumental soundscape too much, they gave that room for Lindsey (and they didn’t have the skills to do all that to Stevie’s songs). That’s why I think that whoever listens to the Rumours-era FM superficially will not necessarily find the important focus point from the rhythm section. And one needs something to focus on in order to give the music another chance. It is unfair but it’s the way the history of rock and roll has often been written; it’s the frontpersons who get the most attention, unless one starts speaking of bands who play mainly instrumentals.

Everyone else that has come to Stevie’s solo career after Lindsey has been secondary, IMO. There is much less care put in there and more of the business mentality, all because of SN’s approval, possibly.

Ad infinitum.

But he is just as interested in album sales because, he did not release his solo cd that he stated if only 300,000 ppl heard , he would of been happy with that. He didnot release his solo material as he intended it to be heard, he compromised and made it a fm album, . When you stated he doesnt compromise his songs to that fm sound on his solo material, WELL LINDSEY JUST RELEASE YOUR SOLO STUFF PLEASE.

The reason he went back to recording with FM instead of continuing solo was because of the wife and kids. He gets the most money from touring while knowing that FM are in a position where they do not have to calculate the content of the album that much because the significant change in music wouldn’t necessarily result in the significant change in sales. Hence the filmmaker in the two bedroom analogy. They are in a position where they do not need to worry about the record sales that much, or at least to the extent that Stevie seems to be doing it.

wow so you must not be too much into the value of lyrics then.

I’m not. English isn’t a natural language for me, but I’ve never stated lyrics can’t have any value. I’m trying to recognize their meaning to the pieces anyway.

who did some of your mixing linds,,,, chris lord alge, (spelling?) and ootc was his best solo material, IMO

In your opinion it’s his best. And look at Chris, even his attempts at the homogeneity couldn’t save the album from being a commercial flop. Now is there something fundamentally wrong in Lindsey’s approach to music or was it just because two different target groups can’t learn to accept each other?

And as far as whoever said Christine's songs would sound like average pop without Lindsey, I don't think so!

Sorry Christopher, if it came off that way. But the reason why I first paid attention to Christine was because of Lindsey’s playing. I learned to value her own thing a bit later but that speaks more of my background. I’m sure other people have different experiences.

I always thought OOTC (and "Tango" for that matter) suffered because of the electronic drums. Especially for an album that came out in 1992. I mean, who'd want to listen to an album with a drum machine when Nirvana was more than willing to kick your ass with a real drummer? For me, there's nothing better than the band all playing at their best ("Oh Well" from FM Live comes to mind). OOTC, while a great album, still falls short.

Grunge wasn’t the only thing that was going on in the early nineties. At that point it was still acceptable to have some of the ‘80s treatments in production. Lindsey wasn’t the only one to do that.

The preference of band sound over the mechanical rhythm section is a matter of taste and I’m sure it doesn’t matter to a lot of people anyway. I accept both methods with all my heart.

Out Of The Cradle doesn’t need the typical rhythm section. It’s the ‘90s version of Pet Sounds, an album that’s supposed to flourish in other spheres than the rhythmic groove. There are unusual percussive things in there, such as in “Wrong” or “This Is The Time”, which are comparable with Brian Wilson’s usage of sleigh-bells and coconut shells on his acknowledged masterpiece. Not to mention Lindsey’s guitar which is often responsible for the percussive energy. He doesn’t need Mick and John in there because he can supplant them with a different kind of energy. Note how the songs on SYW that have energy coming from the guitar in the OOTC way are “Say Goodbye” and “Red Rover” on which Mick and John aren’t playing.

*SARCASM ALERT* -> So to ChiliD, Trackaghost and Shackin-up, you can all go sulking in the corner now with your conception of authenticity and arguments of ego-trips. :p <- *SARCASM ALERT*
You've obviously not heard anything Christine did before 1975. Her keyboard playing was much more, for lack of a better word, flashy compared to what she did with Lindsey. Heck, she even did a bit of flashy soloing on the "Behind The Mask" tour. And, for the record, some of my favorite Chicken Shack songs are pretty much just Christine and the rhythm section.
I own Kiln House, Future Games, Bare Trees, Penguin, Mystery To Me, Heroes Are Hard To Find, Behind The Mask and Time (and PG’s FM and Then Play On). I think they’re all albums that range from good to great and have many redeeming qualities in them. Perhaps it is my problem but Christine’s playing has never stuck out to me as flashy. I think it takes some time to find out the good qualities in it, unless you have a thing for keyboards. Or at least a different background than I have.
(I have heard only very little Chicken Shack; I should educate myself better here.)
Then you're listening to the wrong Mac songs! Check out "Mr. Wonderful." Sure, it's a blues album, but Christine's playing totally stands out. Get the live recording from the tour prior to the release of "Bare Trees." Christine's keyboards not only grab, but the kick serious butt. For some reason, she almost totally quit being interesting on the keyboards when Stevie and Lindsey joined.
Uh, if I was to say my true feelings of the misguided chase for authenticity that is Mr. Wonderful I’d have swarms of Pre-Rumours fans buzzing around me. ;)
I do agree that she has a little solo passage here and there but she doesn’t constantly kick my butt or anything.
But then again I guess some of those qualities did remain even in later stages. I think the live version of “Not That Funny” had very prominent parts from Chris, even though one could still argue that they were mainly aiming for rhythmic effect.
Your observation is interesting anyway; the only track that heavily leaned on her keys after the inclusion of Laurel and Hardy (c’mon, Nicksheads and Buckheads, that’s funny :lol: ) was “You Make Loving Fun”. I’m not going to make a case for TITN songs because I think every keyboard part in there wasn’t necessarily her doing.
I don't hear much difference between Christine's songs on "Penguin" and her songs on the 1975 album.
I’m willing to agree on this. I think the White Album was a transitional one anyway and I actually think it was recorded a bit too quickly (whereas ChiliD dislikes the later striving for perfection).
And, I think it could be argued that some of her best songs were recorded prior to Lindsey's involvement. "Get Like You Used To Be," "Mean Old World," "I'd Rather Go Blind," "Morning Rain," "Show Me A Smile," "Homeward Bound," "Spare Me A Little," "Remember Me," "Did You Ever Love Me," "Believe Me," "Why," "Heroes Are Hard To Find," "Come A Little Bit Closer," "Skies The Limit," "Save Me," "Hollywood," "I Do," and "All Over Again" were great songs that had nothing to do with Lindsey.
I agree partially and I’d also add “Behind The Mask” and “Sooner Or Later” to the list. I do think she found her true songwriting self only after Stevie and Lindsey joined (and she did have strikes at it earlier, with “Spare Me A Little” and a couple of others). Before that she was trying her hands here and there and some of her raunchier ones, “Homeward Bound”, “Believe Me” and “Just Crazy Love”, for instance, aren’t too convincing (even though they’re still good). But some could say that with Buckingham in the band Chris wasn’t given enough room to explore all her sides, and with the likes of “Butter Cookie”, “Behind The Mask” and “Sooner Or Later” they would have a good argument there.
I don't think the comparison to Carol King is all that apt. In some ways, I see the similarities. However, Christine's best known as a singer/keyboardist in a rock band. Carole King was a songwriter turned singer/songwriter.
I was mainly speaking of the influence that Carole had to Christine and many other female writers at the time. CK may not have encouraged Chris to write but I think her success, with the albums Writer, Tapestry and Music, encouraged Chris to continue doing it. I hear musical influence in there also.

Ah, yes. Anything bad about it was deliberately bad. This is a great all-purpose excuse - not just for Lindsey, for anyone! My hair looks ratty today? Why, perhaps I intentionally made it look straggly and frizzy as a commentary on the shallow nature of today's beauty-obsessed society! Either that or I ran out of detangler.

:lol:

Nancy, if my arguments on proving that there’s some worth in “Family Man” too are futile and come off like it’s MY WAY that is the only possible interpretation then give up on the following, I will lose all the level-headed reputation that I might have in your eyes. ;)

I do think there’s some of the spirit from the Beach Boys’ Love You album in “Family Man”. Let’s have look at a particular lyric from Love You, this is from “Roller Skating Child”:

Originally written by Brian Wilson in the infamous “Brian Is Back!” period
Make sweet lovin’ ‘til the sun goes down/we’re leaving tomorrow when moma’s not around/well oh my oh gosh oh gee/she really puts chills inside of me

Go ahead, laugh at that one. I did. :laugh: That’s what that album is full of. Childish lyrics and banal rhymes (not to mention the thought of the middle-aged Brian Wilson actually wanting to do all that to a teenager :eek: ). Yet I think that’s a great song. Go and download it from somewhere. It has this brilliant, naive vibe to it which I think “Family Man” has too. I can understand how some would think it’s immature and tasteless but I identify with this stuff.

I don’t know if there’s that much self-mockery going on in “Family Man” (or in the entire Love You album) but I think there is. The lyrics suck but if Lindsey sang them seriously then I’d hate the entire track. The voice treatments give it this perverted sense, it gains all the cartoonish humour of “Bwana” as a result. My understanding is that the thoughts he’s expressing in “Family Man” are the thoughts that anyone is likely to have at one point in life. No matter how one uses the $100 words or the elaborate wordgames, one is bound to hit a point where such finesse isn’t possible for a while; obviously when one is tired, for instance. I get thoughts similar to the lyrics of “Family Man” when I’m tired anyway. Later on I might start mocking those in goofy voices, just to prove myself that I’m above all that.

That’s what I think “Family Man” does, it isn’t just a description of Lindsey’s closest relationships at the time. There’s a lot of humour and self-deprecation in there and that’s why I love it.

(IMO, of course. I’m not pushing this on anyone. Maybe he just had a really bad day when he and Richard wrote the lyrics.) :lol:

Nancy, are you ready for that “SYHA” bashing now? ;)

Not sure where you're getting all this from, but I think you just might be in possession of a misconception, lol.

Most likely I just have my head up my rear end after all this incessant typing. :)

Confusion over clarity. I was thinking of the live version of “GYOW” mainly, I suppose. And I guess I was just irritated by the fact that for some Nicksheads “GYOW” is the ultimate Lindsey song and everything else done after that is just being weird for weird’s sake. But don’t you think Stevie was sometimes milking the dramatic factor of “GYOW” herself? In some live performances, like in the Mirage tour video, she stretches out at the end of the final chorus and gets the final word when Lindsey is focusing on his solo.

Ok, no cohesion in this post. No homogeneity either. It’s just like SYW.

There certainly is the implication that if you like Stevie you like the persona (meaning the lyrics, the clothes, the "drama"), whereas if you like Lindsey you appreciate "the music".

I was speaking of certain people only. I think Stevie’s music can stand outside the whole drama thing and that it isn’t too esoteric in that area. In the future the cream of her music will survive when the whole drama has faded.

To give anyone credit for the emotion that comes from a Stevie song is blasphemy in my eyes. It's all Stevie. The rest is just icing on the cake; the sugar, if you will.

The core emotion is Stevie’s, yes.

But to imply that instruments can’t convey emotions, that they can’t move people and are just “icing on the cake”, is blasphemy to me. There is a lot involved in there when it’s Fleetwood Mac playing, and especially Lindsey who cares for Stevie’s songs more than anyone else in the world excluding the writer.

[dissention]

The core emotion is Stevie’s, yes.

But to imply that instruments can’t convey emotions, that they can’t move people and are just “icing on the cake”, is blasphemy to me. There is a lot involved in there when it’s Fleetwood Mac playing, and especially Lindsey who cares for Stevie’s songs more than anyone else in the world excluding the writer.

I didn't mean to imply that instruments can't convey emotion, that would be absurd. But, to me, when it comes to Stevie's material, it is icing on the cake. That's not to say that some instrumentation can't move me when it comes to her songs, it can, namely "Storms" and "Goodbye Baby". But the most dominant things in her music are the lyrics and the performance. I focus more on those things than the music, mostly because a lot of the music on her solo albums is purely awful. Honestly, if the lyrics are bad and the song is performed badly, I don't care how wonderful the guitar is.

You put it right when you said the "core." Stevie's contributions are the "core" of the song, whereas the rest of the stuff is just extra.

[teedee]

Face if glass.
I think we can name you as one who likes a stevie song based on lindseys contributions, for what you just stated with the song DREAMS.

as for him touring with the MAC for the money, as you stated before lindsey is a wealthy man and i say good for him and the rest , but i think its funny when lindsey sstated he needs to pay for a house and raise a family thats ok, but when stevie states you all have young families to raise, she is criticized for it, then in the end lindsey sees the light and agrees. hmmmmm

[shackin'up]

I didn't mean to imply that instruments can't convey emotion, that would be absurd. But, to me, when it comes to Stevie's material, it is icing on the cake. That's not to say that some instrumentation can't move me when it comes to her songs, it can, namely "Storms" and "Goodbye Baby". But the most dominant things in her music are the lyrics and the performance. I focus more on those things than the music, mostly because a lot of the music on her solo albums is purely awful.

Agreed. But I'm sure that a lot of those songs could have been, at least had the possibility to be, beautiful if she worked on them with Lindsey. I'm just plain sure about that. All mac-albums except TITN prove that. That is the reason why I don't like her solo-albums except for the brilliant Bella Donna, some of the Wild Heart and incidently on Rock a Little and TISL. For me, it is not enough to have a well delivered performance in emotionless slick and predictible arrangements.
Especially when it is not MEANT that way. :lol:

[dissention]

Agreed. But I'm sure that a lot of those songs could have been, at least had the possibility to be, beautiful if she worked on them with Lindsey. I'm just plain sure about that. All mac-albums except TITN prove that. That is the reason why I don't like her solo-albums except for the brilliant Bella Donna, some of the Wild Heart and incidently on Rock a Little and TISL. For me, it is not enough to have a well delivered performance in emotionless slick and predictible arrangements.
Especially when it is not MEANT that way. :lol:

I totally agree. I like all her solo albums with the exceptions of RAL and SA, but even those albums have at least something going for them. Unfortunately, the good things are outweighed by the bad things: the slick arrangements, as you pointed out, sometimes ruin the emotion of the songs completely. The music on those albums is too sterile and slick; rather cold at times. Stevie's lyrics and the like are much better suited with warm arrangements like those on BD and the WH. Once she started going overboard with the synthesizers, a lot of the warmth in her voice and lyrics jumped the shark. But even still, I do think those albums have some good points and much of it is very heartfelt.

[shackin'up]

Enlighten me.

:shrug: and me...... :p

gerald

[shackin'up]

I guess I do tend to undervalue them on the album a bit, due to the fact that Mick is pretty much doing the usual 4/4. Granted, that’s what he’s done for most of his career but with some interesting variations, up to Tusk anyway.

John is good throughout but I think it’s curious that the one of the killers is too overshadowed by the other instrumentation. It’s “Illume” I’m talking about, of course. I think he’s very important in “Smile At You” too. With the rest I don’t think it would be a huge difference if a studio player had been used. Yes, it would lose the classic Mick & John groove but would it necessarily change the conception of the songs?



Gaius, we will not come to consensus here. (Not that I'm aiming for that :laugh: )
Destiny rules, RTTG, both have a unmistaken FM_signature through bass and drums. And Miranda, Come and Murrow show a very inspired and original (read: Tusk-quality) rythmsection. It's just Lindseys engineering and production that holds them back alittle. But i disagree on the fact that without Mick and John those songs would be concepted in the same way. I only think you're right if we're only talking about say you will and peacekeeper and maybe thrown down and silver girl.

gerald

[shackin'up]

Mick and John are the wheels and the suspension to Lindsey’s engine, so it’s like a car. The rhythm section OOTC is like one of those fast Japanese bullet trains. Too clinical for some, maybe, but it does its job.


And for the OOTC japanese train-metaphore: I agree. But travelling fast and smooth takes away the feeling that you're underway. I like to travel and have the feeling that I'm making miles. Bumpy rides I remember, smooth transportation is just comfortable. And boring very quickly.

[CarneVaca]

Imagine, if you will, if fans said that the only good parts about Lindsey's songs, are Stevie's backing vocals.

Well, that would be crazy. Surely you're not equating doing background vocals with arranging, producing and mixing a song?

Lindsey is "the chief architect of the Fleetwood Mac sound," no doubt about it, but I think it's unfair to give either him or Stevie credit for an entire half of the appeal of the others' music.

So if you're the architect of the sound, how much credit should you get if not 50 percent? 40? 25? 10? I don't know, Johnny, you seem to be wanting to have it both ways. Maybe it's not 50 percent in all cases, but it's close, wouldn't you say?

[CarneVaca]

defend stevie??? almost everyone here is saying her songs are better (which i disagree with) .

Almost everyone!!?? Time to do some math, dude.

[CarneVaca]

"Not That Funny" is really, really, REALLY bad.... I would almost categorize it as unlistenable. That and "I Know I'm Not Wrong" are staaaanky!

Obviously, you don't get what's going on in those songs.

[CarneVaca]

"Lindsey made 'Gypsy' what it is."
"'Dreams' would be nothing if it weren't for Lindsey."
And so on and so on.

They were great songs to begin with, Johnny, to be sure, but Lindsey did make them the stellar works that they are. Dreams played by Stevie's rent-a-band is not good enough to kiss the feet of the Fleetwood Mac versions.

Besides, I think you're characterizing those of us who are bigger fans of Lindsey than Stevie with a bit of a general brush. I'm always trying to point out nuances. My issue with Stevie is that I think she became lazy about writing and editing after The Wild Heart. No need to rehash that at all. I only bring it up to point out that I love those two solo albums of hers, and they had nothing to do with Lindsey. If what you're saying were true, then I wouldn't even like them. In fact, Bella Donna was my favorite album for a long time.

My issue with Stevie is that most of her stuff after 1983 was inferior to what came before. And as much as I like a couple of the SYW tracks, most of them can't ever come close to touching Landslide, Sara or Gypsy.

[CarneVaca]

I agree on REO in loserdom

What constitutes loserdom? REO's Hi Infidelity spent 19 weeks at number 1 and sold more copies than any FM album outside of Rumours.

Does REO's music suck? That's up for debate. But I wouldn't exactly call them losers, considering the amazing success they had.

[Hawkeye]

I personally think Not That Funny and IKINW are both masterpieces, although in some ways they are painfull almost like the same song. But they are different and each are amazing in their own ways.

[CarneVaca]

Good point and well made.

Be careful. They'll think you're serious. Irony is a dangerous thing. :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

I don't know what the point of all this is, but......
Seeing that Stevie gave her songs to Lindsey to arrange etc. wouldn't it be natural that he gets partial credit for them? That's not belittling Stevie is it, just to mention that he does deserve a fair amount of credit?

Good point. Furthermore, let's all ruminate on this for a while: In other songwriter/musician setups, Lindsey would be getting co-writing credit for a lot of these Stevie songs. Hell, he gave somebody credit for Come just for coming up with a riff. Think about that.

[strandinthewind]

What constitutes loserdom? REO's Hi Infidelity spent 19 weeks at number 1 and sold more copies than any FM album outside of Rumours.

Does REO's music suck? That's up for debate. But I wouldn't exactly call them losers, considering the amazing success they had.

I LOVE REO Speedwagon, esp. Hi Indidelity :cool:

TAKE ON THE RUN BABY - IF THAT'S THE WAY YOU WANT IT BABY . . . :laugh:

[Hawkeye]

I hate REO Speedwagon but love one of their songs Riding the Storm Out.

[strandinthewind]

Good point. Furthermore, let's all ruminate on this for a while: In other songwriter/musician setups, Lindsey would be getting co-writing credit for a lot of these Stevie songs. Hell, he gave somebody credit for Come just for coming up with a riff. Think about that.

:rolleyes: no they would not :laugh: You have to write the actual words to get publishing credit, esp. when the words are registered prior to the song's evolution. Plus, I LB gets paid as a producer whose job it is to produce Stevie in this context within FM. Interestingly, Stevie often credits other people in the music credits under the name of each song :shrug:

Also, I do not think anyone is arguing LB is not brilliant with transforming Stevie's work. Stevie repeatedly says that and certainly I freely admit that. It is just some people are instantly and seemingly smugly dismissive of her talent and make smart remarks that boldly state or at least imply Stevie has no talent and is lucky to be in the same room as LB. I know not everyone has that smugness and Lord knows the chiffonheads are easily enraged ( :laugh: ) - but it does come across that way and some of it is intentional. And that is ashame to me because I think they both brilliantly shine at what they do. AND - they both have respect for each others' talent. But, some, not all, people are ensconced in their camps so the LB v. SN fighting continues.

Whatever :cool:

[strandinthewind]

I have always thought so, but hesitated to mention this in fear of being attacked by Stevie fans.

So when Stevie adds a significant harmony part, tambourine part, extra voical, or whatever to LB's songs, she should get credit too by this rule :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Are you being sarcastic? You're not comparing as equals the addition of a tamborine part to the fact that Stevie gave her songs to Lindsey as tunes, and he transformed them into classics?


What I am trying to say is you seem to think the river of talent flows only one way and that Stevie sits there and does nothing. That is ashame because obviously LB does not feel that way. AND - clearly the doc. on VH-1 showed Stevie was very proactive in the crafting of her songs from the demos. So, it is not, as you imply, all LB. Stevie is in there too even though LB is brilliant at transforming them. Yet, I hear no praise for her.

[Hawkeye]

May I add that Stevie produced the song Bombay Saphires from her TISL album. We know there's at least ONE song out there that was ALL Stevie and no one else. And to me Bombay Saphires is in the top 3 best songs on TISL.

[Johnny Stew]

Stevie writes the songs. Lindsey produces them.
I've never known a producer to get co-writing credit on anyone's songs, simply because of ideas they contributed to the finished product.

As has been stated before, Lindsey builds upon what Stevie has already written. He doesn't write them from the ground up for her... he takes her songs, and builds upon them, and polishes them.

As evidenced in the documentary, Stevie's "demos" these days could damn-near pass for a finished product themselves.

And using a song like "Sisters Of The Moon" for example... in the piano demo, Stevie is clearly playing, almost note for note, what Lindsey ultimately made into a guitar part.

Sure, his guitar playing has far more finesse than her piano playing... but in a case like that, we're being offered a good view that not all of the terrific little parts in Stevie's songs, are entirely of Lindsey's doing.

Lindsey deserves credit for the amazing talents he has, and for his unique production style, but I don't believe that he deserves half the credit for Stevie and/or Christine's songs.
Unless you want to give Richard Dashut half the credit for 'Law And Order' and 'Out Of The Cradle,' or Gordon Fordyce half the credit for 'Go Insane.'

[Johnny Stew]

I think you're characterizing those of us who are bigger fans of Lindsey than Stevie with a bit of a general brush. I'm always trying to point out nuances. My issue with Stevie is that I think she became lazy about writing and editing after The Wild Heart.

My issue with Stevie is that most of her stuff after 1983 was inferior to what came before.And it's my opinion that Lindsey hasn't really done anything all that experimental or outside-the-box since 'Go Insane' in 1984.

Everything else since then has been a refining of the techniques he first used between 1979 and 1984.
Some would call that "laziness" too, but I don't see it that way, and I don't see it as "lazy" that Stevie hasn't gone too far out of the parameters she set for herself in the late '70s and early '80s.

They're both making the music they want to make, and that's the way it should be.

But there's no denying that Stevie receives far more criticism from certain factions for her "laziness" than Lindsey does for repeating certain riffs & solos, or for repeating certain production techniques (channel-panning vocals, the use of VSOs, etc.).

Still, Lindsey continues to excite you in ways that Stevie doesn't, and that's fine. As I've said countless times, we can't all love the same things.
But there are plenty of us who feel that Stevie is at the top of her game now, and we're not deluded, misguided or unenlightened, as Stevie fans are so often accused.

[Johnny Stew]

By that I would imagine that his songs really didn't appeal to the person, but they don't mind the harmonies. Much the same as her songs don't appeal to me, to a degree. I'm only referring to myself, but whilst most of her songs don't appeal to me, I usually find that within the ones that do, it's is in fact Lindsey's contribution that is creating the appeal. How can you argue that what I believe is appealing to me? Are you telling me my tastes are.......wrong?Anyone who knows me, knows that that's not what I was saying at all.

We all have favorites in Fleetwood Mac, no matter which line-up is being discussed. There's just no getting around that, as it's a matter of personal taste. And it's one of the things that makes Fleetwood Mac so amazing in my eyes... that there really is something for practically everyone.

But for a Lindsey fan to say, "if I like a part in one of Stevie's songs, it must be something Lindsey contributed," or for one of Stevie's fans to say, "If one of Lindsey's songs is any good, it's because Stevie's voice made it better," is short-sighted in my opinion.

[Johnny Stew]

Can't argue with that. Not referring to Stevie's music at the moment (I haven't thought about that enough to comment), rather the fact that you are appreciating her current work. I feel that same way about Lindsey's current work.Trust me, Lux, I feel the same way about Lindsey's current work, too.

I don't think every song on 'Say You Will' is the best thing he's ever done, but certainly most of the songs rank right up there, and I'd say he's at the top of his game, too.

"Murrow" is one of my favorite songs of all time... by anyone. I could listen to that song a dozen times and never get sick of it.
I also can't speak highly enough about "Miranda," "Peacekeeper" and "Bleed To Love Her."
"Say Goodbye" has what are probably the best lyrics Lindsey has ever written... though as I've confessed in past threads, the production on that one doesn't really "do it" for me. However, my appreciation of the sound of it and "Red Rover" increases when I change their positions in the running order of the album.

I've had a habit of placing safe-bets lately, and I think it's a safe bet to say that the next Fleetwood Mac album will be even better than 'Say You Will.'
And for as much as I love 'SYW,' that's saying a lot!

[Johnny Stew]

I appreciate all that you're saying, except this part.....

I don't feel the need to say that I only like Lindsey's part because I'm the Lindsey fan. When I first started liking FM I didn't know who was who in the band. But I liked all the songs that turned out to be written by Lindsey, and the remaining songs that I liked, it so happened that what I liked about them was the guitar parts. It's not a matter of excusing the fact that I like some Stevie songs by saying it's because of Lindsey. It's just that his work on those songs is what I appreciate, whereas the songs by themself don't usually work for me. I don't think it's 'short-sighted', rather it's what appeals to my ears.I should have worded my comment better... I didn't mean that I think it's short-sighted to like one member or the other's contributions to a song... again, that's personal taste, and there's nothing wrong with it... but rather that i think it's short-sighted to give all of the credit for a song's appeal to one or the other.

:)

[David]

But there's no denying that Stevie receives far more criticism from certain factions for her "laziness"Only insofar as she doesn't move her tushy onstage. But her solo albums, especially her most recent one, are obviously tenderly crafted labors of love.

Stevie has forged, through vocal & visual prowess, a persona in rock that is unique. She is a maker of startling statements by means of personality & retenue. A long time ago, she said, with uncanny prescience, "If I was going to be in rock 'n' roll, then I was going to be the most elegant rock 'n' roll singer of all."

[stefan]

By that I would imagine that his songs really didn't appeal to the person, but they don't mind the harmonies. Much the same as her songs don't appeal to me, to a degree. I'm only referring to myself, but whilst most of her songs don't appeal to me, I usually find that within the ones that do, it's is in fact Lindsey's contribution that is creating the appeal.

I have the same feelings about some of her songs. For example the long and often-discussed WISYA. I really like the last part when Lindsey sings- the choral like voice makes it for me while the song otherwise drags imo.
Same with WTTRS. Or Smile at you. I heard the demo and fell asleep instantly. And yes I think the grammar thing is tacky... But the sound of Lindseys voice on the album version chorus makes the song for me and that`s what I like it for.
On the other hand there are also some Stevie contributions that improve LB's songs for me. Listen to the different versions of SYHA. The album version with Stevie on background is by far the best. Her inclusion on Say goodbye and the different guitar sound made on the other hand one of my favourite GOS tunes to one of my least favourite SYW ones...

[strandinthewind]

I have the same feelings about some of her songs. For example the long and often-discussed WISYA. I really like the last part when Lindsey sings- the choral like voice makes it for me while the song otherwise drags imo.
Same with WTTRS. Or Smile at you. I heard the demo and fell asleep instantly. And yes I think the grammar thing is tacky... But the sound of Lindseys voice on the album version chorus makes the song for me and that`s what I like it for.
On the other hand there are also some Stevie contributions that improve LB's songs for me. Listen to the different versions of SYHA. The album version with Stevie on background is by far the best. Her inclusion on Say goodbye and the different guitar sound made on the other hand one of my favourite GOS tunes to one of my least favourite SYW ones...

Interestingly, according to Stevie, the idea for LB's haunting vocal at the end of WISYA was all Stevie's. She recorded LB doing it and then took her vocal off of it, leaving only his.

I agree with you, when they are together, the music benefits greatly a la the ones you mentioned - SYHA and the heartwrenching SG (esp. the live versions when they face each other and their voices soar). SHEEBUS

As for the grammar things, they are all "guilty of it." For example,

And once again she steals away
Then she reaches out to kiss me
And how she takes my breath away
Pretending that she don't miss me

LB misses the subject verb agreement in the last line. He purposefully does it for effect and timing in that "doesn't" has too many syllables there. IMO it sounds great. So, I cut them all some slack in the grammar dept -- it is after all rock and roll :laugh:

:cool:

[CarneVaca]

:rolleyes: no they would not :laugh: You have to write the actual words to get publishing credit, esp. when the words are registered prior to the song's evolution. Plus, I LB gets paid as a producer whose job it is to produce Stevie in this context within FM. Interestingly, Stevie often credits other people in the music credits under the name of each song :shrug:

See what happens when you throw lawyers into to the mix? [No pun intended.] :laugh: Jason, from a legal standpoint, you may well be right. I havent' researched it enough, but what you say raises some questions: What about an instrumental? If what you're saying is true, then nobody gets songwriting credit!?!? What about those greedy producers who insist on songwriting credit for changing a couple of words? What about the Lennon-McCartney non-collaboration collaborations? Using a FM example, what about The Chain? I don't think Mick or John came up with any words.

I guess I'm trying to point out that it's not as clear cut as what you say. The songwriting credit usually goes to the person(s) writing the lyrics and melody. That could be one person or several. For the most part, I think we can agree that Stevie comes up with her own melodies, and maybe that's why Lindsey never got songwriting credit. Yet he's come up with all kinds of riffs and things for the songs. But he certainly must have changed some chords here and there, which may or may not have affected melody. For instance, I hear Storms, and I wonder if the chords used in the latter part of the song were in Stevie's original composition or whether Lindsey introduced them. While he didn't get songwriting credit for riffs of chord changes, he gave it to somebody else for coming up with a riff. Interesting, no?

[CarneVaca]

We know there's at least ONE song out there that was ALL Stevie and no one else.

With all due respect, that's incorrect. She still had to get people to play the instruments. I'm not dissing it; just setting the record straight.

[earthboundwhite]

It is their's

[strandinthewind]

See what happens when you throw lawyers into to the mix? [No pun intended.] :laugh: Jason, from a legal standpoint, you may well be right. I havent' researched it enough, but what you say raises some questions: What about an instrumental? If what you're saying is true, then nobody gets songwriting credit!?!? What about those greedy producers who insist on songwriting credit for changing a couple of words? What about the Lennon-McCartney non-collaboration collaborations? Using a FM example, what about The Chain? I don't think Mick or John came up with any words.

I guess I'm trying to point out that it's not as clear cut as what you say. The songwriting credit usually goes to the person(s) writing the lyrics and melody. That could be one person or several. For the most part, I think we can agree that Stevie comes up with her own melodies, and maybe that's why Lindsey never got songwriting credit. Yet he's come up with all kinds of riffs and things for the songs. But he certainly must have changed some chords here and there, which may or may not have affected melody. For instance, I hear Storms, and I wonder if the chords used in the latter part of the song were in Stevie's original composition or whether Lindsey introduced them. While he didn't get songwriting credit for riffs of chord changes, he gave it to somebody else for coming up with a riff. Interesting, no?

It is interesting, esp. in light of Stevie giving music credits to so many other people. I think maybe in the beginning LB and SN considered themselves so mush of a team that they did not think along those lines. Then, by the time Tusk came out, they were so pissed at each other that it was not an option and of course by then, the lawyers (scum of the earth :laugh: ) were involved. So, there was no way anyone's lawyer was gonna let any Ace be played without remuneration in a solidified contract, etc.

Interstingly, on Rumors, Stevie gave the words (or at least a significant amount of them) to the group for "The Chain." She also, according to the Rumors DVD 5.1 interviews constributed to the words of "Oh Daddy" without credit from CM. So, I think "they" have always had some sort of agreement that the words and music belong to the initial writer and any embellishment by anyone else in the band is just seen as part of being in a band. I mean John gets no credit for the bass lines he comes up with and they are stellar and often the defining moments of some songs (Dreams, Oh Daddy, Smile At You, etc.). Anyway, I am just thinking out loud :cool:

[teedee]

With all due respect, that's incorrect. She still had to get people to play the instruments. I'm not dissing it; just setting the record straight.



stevie may have to get musicians to play the record, but initially its the meolody thats in her head that gets out there thru them, no one is saying she is playing all the instruments. we know that. but you make it sound like she just writes the words and then lindsey does all the musical ideas, you have to remember stevie has the melody already down , and lindsey or whom ever adds his instrument to it.

[CarneVaca]

Stevie writes the songs. Lindsey produces them.
I've never known a producer to get co-writing credit on anyone's songs, simply because of ideas they contributed to the finished product.

It happens a lot more than you think, Johnny. It really does.

As evidenced in the documentary, Stevie's "demos" these days could damn-near pass for a finished product themselves.

This is absolutely true, and we all saw it in the documentary. And speaking strictly from an academic point of view, it gave me pause. It made me wonder if perhaps she is not restricting the development of the song in some ways. When you bring a producer like Lindsey a near-finished product, it's gotta be somewhat limiting to his creative process. Were I he, I would view it that way.

Sure, his guitar playing has far more finesse than her piano playing... but in a case like that, we're being offered a good view that not all of the terrific little parts in Stevie's songs, are entirely of Lindsey's doing.

Good point. Stevie brought Lindsey a gem and he was smart enough not to mess with it too much. Both of them deserve a lot of credit in a case like this.

[CarneVaca]

And it's my opinion that Lindsey hasn't really done anything all that experimental or outside-the-box since 'Go Insane' in 1984.


With all due respect, Johnny, you are dead wrong here. Starting with the Cradle tour, Lindsey took an approach to playing guitar that made some history. The way he asked Rick Turner to rig his Chet Atkins was groundbreaking. It was an innovation. History was made. What has happened since then is an evolution of that sound and that kind of playing. You don't have to go outside the box, (arrgggh... I hate that term) every single time to innovate. Sometimes an evolution is more palatable and interesting than an outright new start. Big Love acoustic didn't even make it to tape until 1997, and at that time it was new to a lot of people. Then with GOS/SWY, we got an evolution of that sound. As for the reuse of riffs, all guitarists do that. This falls right into the blues tradition, much of which has translated to rock. Guitarists have signature riffs and they stick to variations of those riffs throughout their careers.

[teedee]

[QUOTE=CarneVaca]It happens a lot more than you think, Johnny. It really does.



This is absolutely true, and we all saw it in the documentary. And speaking strictly from an academic point of view, it gave me pause. It made me wonder if perhaps she is not restricting the development of the song in some ways. When you bring a producer like Lindsey a near-finished product, it's gotta be some what limiting to his creative process. Were I he, I would view it that way.

How can you look at it as her restricting the development? so is she suppose to hold back on her ability to get a great sounding demo and giving it to lindsey as producer just because it demo is in a near finished condition. why should she hold herself back, if she is able to construct a product that is good before she gives it to him, what s wrong with that.? you make it sound like all her demos have to be comnpletely rough, before she gives it to him so that you can say , see what he did to it. why not just give stevie the credit for having a good demo to presen, rather than saying she is holding the development back, if its good in her demo, why is it considered holding back?

[CarneVaca]

LB misses the subject verb agreement in the last line. He purposefully does it for effect and timing in that "doesn't" has too many syllables there. IMO it sounds great. So, I cut them all some slack in the grammar dept -- it is after all rock and roll :laugh:

:cool:

I hate to beat a dead horse, which is why I won't go into the WISYA discussion again, but I must take issue with what you say above. "she don't miss me" and "should've ran," as grammatical offenses, are not even in the same ballpark. "Should've ran" sounds like an unintentional mistake by someone who doesn't know the proper grammatical tense, while "she don't miss me," as you rightly point out, is intentional and works.

[strandinthewind]

interestingly, Stevie is not closed to the idea of LB's brilliant guitar in lieu of what she has done in a demo. A good example of this is the opening riff of SYW's Thrown Down as opposed to the sensational WOS version. LB's version is far more subtle. So, I think I come back again to they are a creative team when in FM, esp. now, and giving one all of the credit is incorrect IMO.

[teedee]

I hate to beat a dead horse, which is why I won't go into the WISYA discussion again, but I must take issue with what you say above. "she don't miss me" and "should've ran," as grammatical offenses, are not even in the same ballpark. "Should've ran" sounds like an unintentional mistake by someone who doesn't know the proper grammatical tense, while "she don't miss me," as you rightly point out, is intentional and works.

Then why is it that lindsey can do something intentional with the grammar that works, or sounds better , but stevie cant?

[strandinthewind]

I hate to beat a dead horse, which is why I won't go into the WISYA discussion again, but I must take issue with what you say above. "she don't miss me" and "should've ran," as grammatical offenses, are not even in the same ballpark. "Should've ran" sounds like an unintentional mistake by someone who doesn't know the proper grammatical tense, while "she don't miss me," as you rightly point out, is intentional and works.

FOUL :laugh:

They are both errors. I think Stevie was well aware of the error and chose to go with the rhyme just like LB chose to go with the meter in BTLH. :cool:

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE=CarneVaca]How can you look at it as her restricting the development? so is she suppose to hold back on her ability to get a great sounding demo and giving it to lindsey as producer just because it demo is in a near finished condition. why should she hold herself back, if she is able to construct a product that is good before she gives it to him, what s wrong with that.? you make it sound like all her demos have to be comnpletely rough, before she gives it to him so that you can say , see what he did to it. why not just give stevie the credit for having a good demo to presen, rather than saying she is holding the development back, if its good in her demo, why is it considered holding back?

Just in case you forgot: I don't read your posts. Your complete disregard for grammar is too distracting for me, not to mention the teedious repetition.

[CarneVaca]

FOUL :laugh:

They are both errors. I think Stevie was well aware of the error and chose to go with the rhyme just like LB chose to go with the meter in BTLH. :cool:

Never mind what they did intentionally or not, then. Question for you: Which one sounds worse to your ear? Be honest now. :eek:

[teedee]

Just in case you forgot: I don't read your posts. Your complete disregard for grammar is too distracting for me, not to mention the teedious repetition.



LOL!!! Doesn't mean I can't respond. To each his own. LOL!!

[strandinthewind]

Never mind what they did intentionally or not, then. Question for you: Which one sounds worse to your ear? Be honest now. :eek:


Neither. I think its just rock and roll. But, I see where people are sticklers and that is cool for them. Plus, the dreamy vocal layering in "Smile At You" makes it less obvious to me. But, to each their own :cool:

[CarneVaca]

Neither. I think its just rock and roll. But, I see where people are sticklers and that is cool for them. Plus, the dreamy vocal layering in "Smile At You" makes it less obvious to me. But, to each their own :cool:

I'll have to take your word for it. But I'll tell you this. As an editor, I would never let "should have ran" slip by, unless it were part of dialogue. But on some occasions, I would allow "she don't miss me" for effect, in or outside dialogue. And all I'll bet you most editors would agree.

[teedee]

I'll have to take your word for it. But I'll tell you this. As an editor, I would never let "should have ran" slip by, unless it were part of dialogue. But on some occasions, I would allow "she don't miss me" for effect, in or outside dialogue. And all I'll bet you most editors would agree.


that was the expected answer I knew you would give.
ok for lindsey, not ok for anyone else.

Dialogue or in print, it is still the same phrase.

[wondergirl9847]

Why would Lindsey sing the phrase if he didn't agree with it? :confused:

"Turned away and ran" I mean.

Actually, now that I think about it, in Destiny Rules (the doc), he talked with her about Thrown Down and he let it go, so....:shrug:

[CarneVaca]

Why would Lindsey sing the phrase if he didn't agree with it? :confused:

"Turned away and ran" I mean.

To my knowledge, there is no record of Lindsey objecting to it. He objected to Thrown Down, which in my estimation, is not quite as offensive. For all we know, he might have pointed this one out too. But we don't know. Of course, he still sang in Thrown Down, despite his objections. And that's a lot more than we can say for Stevie, when asked to harmonize in Come.

I think we know where the true spirit of cooperation is in this band these days.

[strandinthewind]

Of course he may just be resigned to avoid the feminine diatribe that surely results when he suggests changes!!!! :laugh:

I do not remember that Stevie was asked to harmonize on "Come." But, I am getting older :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Of course he may just be resigned to avoid the feminine diatribe that surely results when he suggests changes!!!! :laugh:

:] Yet, he was able to work on an album lacking in "femaleness."

[strandinthewind]

I think we know where the true spirit of cooperation is in this band these days.

Well, Stevie agreed to cut her solo stuff short and come back and work with FM. That was cooperation :shrug:

[face of glass]

I didn't mean to imply that instruments can't convey emotion, that would be absurd. But, to me, when it comes to Stevie's material, it is icing on the cake. That's not to say that some instrumentation can't move me when it comes to her songs, it can, namely "Storms" and "Goodbye Baby". But the most dominant things in her music are the lyrics and the performance. I focus more on those things than the music, mostly because a lot of the music on her solo albums is purely awful. Honestly, if the lyrics are bad and the song is performed badly, I don't care how wonderful the guitar is.

I can understand that and I think Stevie shouldn’t be overshadowed by instrumentation, although there’s points when I can accept that (and you know the guy I’m referring to here). They can be supportive but they shouldn’t be reduced to the level of pure studio routine. With her solo work it can often get to that point, with Fleetwood Mac that happens very rarely.

I focus on the performance a lot too but I can’t solely get by with that aspect. I want the background to be special too. It’s funny how I think “Sara” is a well written song and that Cleaning Lady version still doesn’t move me that much. Yeah, she sings as perfectly as in the final version and many of the arrangement details are falling into their places (as David once demonstrated; that version of the song is a Buckingham production). But when they changed those harmonies and added those guitars that’s when it became magic for me. Seriously, when I listen to the album version I start to cry in giant lumps. I’m like a baby when that one is playing. And that, I think, is because there’s Stevie’s original vision shining through, along with Lindsey’s interpretation of it. That guitar and that voice are such a combination that in cases like this I lose all the rationale and the critique and indulge in pure fanboy blabber. *drools without any sense for several minutes*

And yeah, I can get over most of the music on her solo albums too by just focusing on Stevie.

I also think that if Stevie’s original sketch (including the performance) is worthless then there’s very little Lindsey, or anyone, can do.

There’s points when Lindsey can take over some of Stevie’s original meaning and maybe even change it, I think “Rhiannon” is one, “Gypsy” is another and with SYW we have at least “Smile At You” and “Illume” (but I better stay away from that “sarcasm for 23 seconds” argument :eek: ). “Smile At You” especially loses its initial anger and becomes something thoroughly haunting instead but then again she may not have wanted to do a vocal similar to the one she did in the ‘70s.

Sometimes Stevie’s final vocal can change too, according to the final arrangement.

I think that every time when someone gives a song to a band it becomes an interpretation of the original meaning, so that’s why I don’t think any song Stevie has done with Fleetwood Mac is solely about Stevie. It’s about the band as well. When she’s solo it’s usually SN + routine.

(Note: the above refers mainly to MUSIC, not to lyrical content.)

I think we can name you as one who likes a stevie song based on lindseys contributions, for what you just stated with the song DREAMS.

Don’t go too far there. I love two of Stevie’s solo albums and like the rest of them. And I’ve never stated “Dreams” or anything else was solely about the instrumentation. Stevie initiated that song and it’s her personality that shines through the most in there. I think the vocal on that track is one of the greatest things anyone has ever sung. And the song always seems to lose something live, no matter who and how many people are playing it, most likely because Stevie hasn’t been capable of recapturing that forlorn sexiness (and because the band was unwilling to do all the harmonies in the 1977 tour). No wonder said that “’Dreams’ was a gift”.

i think its funny when lindsey sstated he needs to pay for a house and raise a family thats ok, but when stevie states you all have young families to raise, she is criticized for it, then in the end lindsey sees the light and agrees. Hmmmmm

My problem with Stevie’s comment was mainly because she stated it when they were discussing the album, not the tour. Like I said before, I don’t think the content of the album matters that much because of Fleetwood Mac’s current position. It’s the tour that brings in the most money.

Furthermore I think Lindsey only “saw the light” after it had been suggested that Stevie may not be able to tour for any more than 40 dates. He most likely was willing to “eat the cost” of the double album before that. I don’t know if Stevie played hardball with him, something like: “if this album is a double then I won’t be touring that much with you”, similar to Lindsey’s threat when he wanted to leave the majority of his material off the album if the double album idea was abandoned. It’s just a suggestion, nothing more.

Gerald and Dissention, I agree with you on all of your points on Stevie’s solo producing. I think it’s somewhat weird that on TISL, which is a solo album, for Christine McVie’s sake, I think Stevie’s voice sounds a tad unnatural. Unlike on SYW where her voice resonates in me a lot more at times. (Sure, I know the claim for exaggerated nasality through the mixing board treatments has been made but as the documentary shows she pretty much sounds the same in those raw clips. Of course you can bring in a nasal-o-meter and prove me wrong. ;)) I ain’t gonna blame the ProTools though, otherwise I’ll get Johnny Stew on my back again.

So, what are you saying Stevie WAS built by Lindsey?
Funny how she started writing songs way before he did.

I didn’t say that and I didn’t even want to imply it. They built their success together. They benefited from each other and yet at one point Lindsey didn’t want Stevie appearing on his songs at all (and I don’t think they suffered from that). What I said was that I don’t believe Stevie would have risen to the status she did if Lindsey hadn’t been there with her. She would have been able to pull off about three good, successful albums in the typical singer-songwriter medium and that’s that.

Also, how many of Stevie’s pre-1970 songs have you heard? Are “Rose Garden” and “I’ve Loved And I’ve Lost…” the best examples of her work? The archives that we have had the access to (thank God) begin from the early ‘70s. In 1970 Lindsey wrote his first song (according to his own words). No competition here, just stating some facts.

How do you know that?

I’ve done my homework. If you think they didn’t innovate anything then discuss it in more detail, please. Name me at least one singer who had a similar production to that before Lindsey, Richard and Ken started their proper work. Educate me “Charlotte”, and “I’ll be your plastic toy”. :)

When Stevie went out on her own who did she hook up with but Jimmy Iovine because of his work with Bruce Springsteen, Patti Smith and Tom Petty.

And as David once told us, Jimmy Iovine was mainly a case for invisible production.
You could make a proper case for the musicians influencing the soundscapes of Bella Donna, The Wild Heart and parts of Rock A Little and you could be right. But then again these players were also the cream of the American mainstream and established themselves around the same time as Fleetwood Mac with Buckingham and Nicks arrived to the scene.

So yeah, they don’t sound exactly like Fleetwood Mac but they don’t sound all that different either. Stevie wasn’t gonna go all early Patti Smith or Kate Bush on us, she knew her limits and they had all been tested with Fleetwood Mac. With Bella Donna it was mainly just the case for getting more of her songs out.

Now the questions are: how different is “Edge Of Seventeen” from “Rhiannon”? Does “Outside The Rain” differ from “Dreams” that much? Is “How Still My Love” a more obviously mainstream “Beautiful Child”? Why do the “country” songs on the album sound close to the typical singer-songwriter format? Hell, why do “Kind Of Woman” and “HSML” follow that pattern too?

Bella Donna is the typical singer-songwriter album, or the methods that are used on it are typical for the genre. The Wild Heart is the same with some synthesizers added. The only thing that is non-standard in there is Stevie herself.

Stevie could have tried something else but she obviously didn’t want to, she was content with what she got (and why not, she obviously loved the results and I do too, in spite of my typical reservations). But SN did take the easiest path, surrounding herself with THE session players of the times, people she already had contacts with.

She has always stated she wanted to be a rock and roll singer in the vein of Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. When Stevie screams the lyrics at the end of Rhiannon live, that's down to her own rock and roll sensibilities, not Lindsey's.

It’s funny that in Bella Donna she doesn’t use this side of her at all, even the version of “EO17” that’s on the album is very toned down when compared to some of the live versions (and understandably so). Neither does she really expose her intimacy to us like in the Tusk ballads.

This is a difficult matter to deal with anyway. What proof do we have of Stevie screaming on stage pre-Lindsey, or even pre-1975 for that matter? Her demos certainly don’t show us any of this (and I understand the reasons for that). So my belief is that she only started exploring this side of her truly when Lindsey arranged “Rhiannon” as a rocker. When that song was extended live there were two people who were willing to let us see the murky depths of their psyches through their main instruments. Exposing us to all that demands a damn lot of trust and self-confidence for anyone and it helps if someone else is doing it at the same time. She wouldn’t have gone that far if Lindsey hadn’t been there. No one else could have been there, IMO. (And I don’t think Lindsey would have pulled off such a solo if not for Stevie anyway.)

She did extend it during her solo tours but even then she had begun to pull it back because of her voice. And I think she extended it because people expected her to do that; “Rhiannon” is the cornerstone of her success after all. So she acted out the part once more for old times’ sake. Nevertheless, I think it still was great live, in 1986 especially. And the 1994 versions (the ones I’ve heard, anyway) were no slouch either.

That's an ignorant view to think that all female songwriters would be treated to lush arrangements because they sang about "feminine topics". :rolleyes:

But it was the standard thing to do in the ‘70s, especially if you wrote ballads/mid-tempo material with an acoustic guitar or a piano which SN did do all the time back then.

btw, I bet most of Lindsey's songs are love songs, a "feminine topic" some might say...

The only time I can “accuse” him of following the feminine stereotype of singing about pure love is “Crystal”, which is a Stevie song. In his other work in that field there can be a good amount of bitterness, regret and just pure lust. Rarely has he done the usual acoustic ballad, there’s usually some post-modern qualities involved and those can’t be specifically described as either feminine or masculine, unlike a lot of the music released in the hippie era.

… if I hear one more person say "they need the money because they have families" I will puke.

How much money do you think Lindsey has these days?

He gets royalties out of about four songs from the regular radio play, the Rumours ones and “Big Love”. The back catalogue isn’t selling that much anymore and the production credits for the Rumours line-up releases have always been split with other people, with Rumours it went to seven different people, for instance.

Not to mention having released a commercial flop and still having toured to support it with significant losses. The Dance tour must have helped him in that regard somewhat, but unlike SN he has never toured with regularity.

He was already recording an album that the record company eventually refused to finance. Not to mention getting married and having kids, so that he now has a lot more expenses than he used to have. And starting to build the new house and the studio to go along with it.

Sure, he’s never been known as a big spender. But I also see the typical parent worries here; everyone wants their kids to have a better life than he/she has had. So I think he is securing all that as well.

Hmmm, that's a sad thought that Lindsey only reunited with the Mac to make money touring. Of course if that's entirely the case then why did he make a new album with the band? They could have toured a la The Dance, playing just their hits, and Lindsey then could have taken a break to roll around in his new money and release his solo album on a smaller label just the way he wants it, no worries.
You can't deny Lindsey must have thought there would be better sales for a Mac album than a Buckingham solo venture.

I do think he truly enjoys working with John, Mick and Stevie as well. Just as long as he doesn’t have to make too many compromises, which I think he hasn’t done. During TITN he felt the pressure though (I’m not referring to touring, I’m referring to musical direction) and that’s why he left. As of now, though, Stevie spoke of the current situation the best: “everybody wants Lindsey to be really happy”. So it was appropriate for him to continue working with the Mac, especially since I think the only thing he truly compromised on is the double album issue.

The question is then as follows: Lindsey’s material sells more as Fleetwood Mac product but how many people actually listen to all of it and appreciate the different sides of it? My hunch is not that many and I think the whole thing wouldn’t be that different if he was out on an independent label. You know I think he’s a difficult artist to sell if he continues making records like he does. So he gets the widest spreading for his material through Fleetwood Mac, gets to laugh at his sleeve when “the typical FM album buyer” gets the album and is shocked by the noisier tracks and can still claim with credibility that he’s the one in the band who doesn’t follow the common perceptions of Fleetwood Mac and their music.

His little rant about Todd Solondz doesn't add up for me. If he prefers to make a artistic contribution rather than sell lots of records, then an independent label would have been the way to go.

But no label in this world has the skills to sell an artist who has such overall diversity in his work in that it crossbreeds the musical styles of at least two different target groups (that will only be able to accept each other fully when all the wars in the world will end) and the Fleetwood Mac package which he has never wanted to entirely follow.

If Fleetwood Mac are not in a position where they can release a record exactly as they want it to be while enjoying their luxuries then who else is?

You know Lindsey isn’t that experimental. You think he’s “pushing the envelope of a commercial sound” and that’s his way of making an artistic contribution.

Come on. “Murrow” and “Steal Your Heart Away”. Are those people who appreciate both songs just freaks in the current world? Is Lindsey Buckingham a freak when he puts both on the same album? Is he unrealistic? Does he really naively believe that a lot of people will accept both?
It’s all about artistic expression of his different sides and he doesn’t give in an inch in this regard. And it’s the right kind of naivety for me.

What do you mean by "conception of authenticity"?

By “authentic” I meant the real rhythm section, after all it seems that the rhythm section of OOTC appears as plastic and artificial for you.
I just added that pseudo-stab at you in there because I didn’t have the time to write anything to the discussion of this topic on the LB board.

And do you think Lindsey wasn't on an ego-trip when he was making certain records?

You speak of his ego all the time. I see a man who’s not as social as most people and who can have a dominative, obsessive side. So it’s a question of stating the same thing in different ways.

He’s not as much of a group player as most rock musicians are and that’s because of his reclusive personality. It also affects his music-making.

It’s also useless to speak of everything being such an ego-trip. Lindsey has always had an outside pair of ears for the recordings. If he wanted to be a total egoist, he’d isolate himself from the world entirely and work completely alone. He is influenced by the people he’s working with and is also influenced by the music surrounding him. It isn’t egoism for me.

You could make a case for Out Of The Cradle being egoistic lyricswise but the same could be said for most of Stevie’s solo work. And yet other people still can relate to the matters that they’re dealing with.
Enlighten me.
C’mon. I’m not trying to be a prophet of some kind here. I’m just discussing things with people, overreacting, getting corrected and learning something from all of you. And it’s also good fun. :)
It’s our emotions at play all the time here. There may be facts involved but no one ever brings out all the facts at the same time. And the facts aren’t always enough anyway.

Destiny rules, RTTG, both have a unmistaken FM_signature through bass and drums. And Miranda, Come and Murrow show a very inspired and original (read: Tusk-quality) rythmsection. It's just Lindseys engineering and production that holds them back alittle. But i disagree on the fact that without Mick and John those songs would be concepted in the same way. I only think you're right if we're only talking about say you will and peacekeeper and maybe thrown down and silver girl.

Valid points alright. I tend to have my own problems in the area of the rhythm section; because I often don't pay any attention to it (and it depends on the players, if it's Moon and Entwistle [who are perfect in their own way, and Moon never engulfed into total chaos except when it was pre-arranged] I'm all ears, for instance). I like my bass parts to be memorable instead of choosing the most generic notes, BUT it's my problem. And a bass legend like John can certainly play even the most generic notes without them appearing as generic. Put the groove of "Dreams" on paper and it can be laughable for those who love players who want to amaze people with their chops. Listen to Mick and John do it and it's brilliant.
So I need to listen to SYW more. :p

Hell, he gave somebody credit for Come just for coming up with a riff. Think about that.

But I also think that riff was the important starting point for the song. "Come" wouldn't exist without it. That's what I got from the quote where it was said that Lindsey built the song around Neale's riff.

I've never known a producer to get co-writing credit on anyone's songs, simply because of ideas they contributed to the finished product.

I agree that he shouldn't get that much credit. And there was a time when he didn't mind that much anyway. He didn't ask for a production credit on Rumours even though Richard Dashut thought he should have.

As has been stated before, Lindsey builds upon what Stevie has already written. He doesn't write them from the ground up for her... he takes her songs, and builds upon them, and polishes them.

...and presents to them to the public in a way so that they're more accessible while also having more sophistication and innovation (in the early days, not as of now though), unlike her solo albums.

As evidenced in the documentary, Stevie's "demos" these days could damn-near pass for a finished product themselves.

And my feeling is that she has someone in Phoenix to help her in other ways than in the playing too. In the production aspects at least, because my experience tells me that Stevie Nicks doesn't have the grasp for the large scale structure. If she's produced only "Bombay Sapphires" during her career on her own (and I have my doubts of the accuracy of that credit) then that speaks to me enough.

"Say You Will" and "Silver Girl", bits of what we heard are among the most straightforward arrangements on the album anyway. But when they played a part of the "Destiny Rules" demo I immediately noticed the lacking of the complex harmonic background that the SYW version has. That's the sound of "Trouble", the sound of "Gypsy". A sound that's almost entirely Lindsey Buckingham's doing.

So Stevie may have more control on some of her songs but in some Lindsey can move around more freely.

And using a song like "Sisters Of The Moon" for example... in the piano demo, Stevie is clearly playing, almost note for note, what Lindsey ultimately made into a guitar part.

Sure, his guitar playing has far more finesse than her piano playing... but in a case like that, we're being offered a good view that not all of the terrific little parts in Stevie's songs, are entirely of Lindsey's doing.

And this is about the only example you've ever used in this case. The piano riff of "Sara" is another. More please?

Did Stevie anticipate that "Sisters Of The Moon" has the potential to be a rocker? Or a subtle studio composition?

(Sure, you could make a case that it's all "Rhiannon pt. 2" and Lindsey should be "blamed" for that too. But the man likes to repeat his stuff, just like this woman likes to make her songs similar.)

Unless you want to give Richard Dashut half the credit for 'Law And Order' and 'Out Of The Cradle,' or Gordon Fordyce half the credit for 'Go Insane.

Lindsey has rarely discussed Richard's or Gordon's contributions to his albums. Whether that is due to the LB ego that wants all the credit for itself or not is up to you to suggest.

My hunch is that Richard Dashut was given the co-credit on Mirage, TITN and OOTC songs because Lindsey wanted to thank him in some way. He must have thought that Richard's engineering, the rain sounds in "Street Of Dreams", for instance, were essential to the success of the piece.

Only Richard Dashut's possible Q&A can give us any light on this.

Some would call that "laziness" too, but I don't see it that way, and I don't see it as "lazy" that Stevie hasn't gone too far out of the parameters she set for herself in the late '70s and early '80s.

Lindsey's game is being a pop eccentric, taking various sounds from here and there and not compromising his integrity, Stevie's game is making her records sell and not compromising her integrity.

They haven't invented anything genuinely new and at this point in rock and roll, no one can really do it. But there are borders to be explored and I think Lindsey does that more often than Stevie does.

But her solo albums, especially her most recent one, are obviously tenderly crafted labors of love.

Which they are for Stevie herself but I still dislike the routine studio musician presence. And I dislike the too mainstream sound but it's obviously the sound she prefers so that's that.

There. A whole post made worthless by two sentences at the end. ;)

[chiliD]

How much money do you think Lindsey has these days?

He gets royalties out of about four songs from the regular radio play, the Rumours ones and “Big Love”. The back catalogue isn’t selling that much anymore and the production credits for the Rumours line-up releases have always been split with other people, with Rumours it went to seven different people, for instance.

Not to mention having released a commercial flop and still having toured to support it with significant losses. The Dance tour must have helped him in that regard somewhat, but unlike SN he has never toured with regularity.

He was already recording an album that the record company eventually refused to finance. Not to mention getting married and having kids, so that he now has a lot more expenses than he used to have. And starting to build the new house and the studio to go along with it.

Sure, he’s never been known as a big spender. But I also see the typical parent worries here; everyone wants their kids to have a better life than he/she has had. So I think he is securing all that as well)

Lindsey didn't blow (pun not consciously intentional, but maybe subconsciously it was) his Rumours & Tusk royalties on cocaine...he seemingly reinvested his money into himself/his career. His "cocaine" was his home studio, his next solo album, his solo tour, etc. Sure, Lindsey only gets the songwriting (& probably publishing) royalties on HIS songs ("GYOW", "Tusk", etc), but you have to remember, that he also gets artist royalties on songs like "Dreams", "Rhiannon", "Say You Love Me", "Landslide", "Gold Dust Woman", "Little Lies", "You Make Loving Fun", "Don't Stop", etc...just THAT would be quite a lofty income. He makes a pretty penny...and seems to be fairly financially sound.

Thinking as a tax accountant might: Even if Lindsey spent exhorbinate amounts of money on gear for his home studio, because of who he is, it's all tax deductable. :nod:

Just kinda shows how MUCH money Mick & Stevie (specifically) put "up their noses".

John (per the one clip in the recent PBS special) seems to be a tightwad, so despite not getting songwriting royalties, he's probably doing pretty well financially (and alchohol is INFINITELY cheaper than, as Mick called it, "Peruvian nose candy").

[CarneVaca]

Lindsey didn't blow (pun not consciously intentional, but maybe subconsciously it was) his Rumours & Tusk royalties on cocaine...he seemingly reinvested his money into himself/his career. His "cocaine" was his home studio, his next solo album, his solo tour, etc. Sure, Lindsey only gets the songwriting (& probably publishing) royalties on HIS songs ("GYOW", "Tusk", etc), but you have to remember, that he also gets artist royalties on songs like "Dreams", "Rhiannon", "Say You Love Me", "Landslide", "Gold Dust Woman", "Little Lies", "You Make Loving Fun", "Don't Stop", etc...just THAT would be quite a lofty income. He makes a pretty penny...and seems to be fairly financially sound.

He also gets royalties from movie soundtracks. There are three National Lampoon movies that use Holiday Road, and those movies, especially the first one, are wildly popular. That's a good chunk 'a cash for Lindsey right there.

[strandinthewind]

True ChiliD - LB appears or at least has not made public any significant problems with coke - only he did say in the docs around The Dance that he had had his own issues, etc. LB and others have said LB lost money on the OOTC tour and record. Then, I am sure he made money on The Dance. But, then he released GYOW to Enterprise Rental Cars for a commerical. That just does not make sense to me. Maybe he gave his kids the rights to GYOW and provided them with their own cash that way as some sort of tax shelter thing. Who knows. So, that kind of smacks of needing money. I mean tearing down a house in Bel Air and then rebuilding a bigger and better one with a fully equipped studio that they did not even use for the SYW stuff must have cost like $10 million. So, it is pretty safe to say cash was welcome :cool:

[strandinthewind]

Thinking as a tax accountant might: Even if Lindsey spent exhorbinate amounts of money on gear for his home studio, because of who he is, it's all tax deductable. :nod:

maybe and only to the point of alternate minimum tax and it would assume he had income that year to reflect the deduction. :cool:

[Johnny Stew]

It happens a lot more than you think, Johnny. It really does.

I follow the music industry quite a bit, and in the average situation, a producer receives a writing credit if he completely overhauls the original music, thus creating a new melody.
But not because he decided that a guitar lick would sound good during the bridge, or that the third verse should replace the first, and the chorus should be shortened.

This is absolutely true, and we all saw it in the documentary. And speaking strictly from an academic point of view, it gave me pause. It made me wonder if perhaps she is not restricting the development of the song in some ways. When you bring a producer like Lindsey a near-finished product, it's gotta be somewhat limiting to his creative process. Were I he, I would view it that way.

Another situation where Stevie appears to be damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.

If she brings in something simple and basic, then Lindsey gets most (if not all) of the credit for making it wonderful.
If she brings in something that's already arranged and fleshed-out, then she's holding Lindsey back.

Always puzzling to me.

[strandinthewind]

Also, there is the situation of the outside producer wanting a writing or musical credit so they get paid more $$$$$ than just for producing. This is done all of the time for big name producers with minor acts. Stevie clearly would be beyond that and LB is part of her band, etc. Yet, Stevie clearly has shared credit before. I believe she shared with Rupert Hines and she has given FM things before as mentioned earlier :shrug:

[teedee]

I follow the music industry quite a bit, and in the average situation, a producer receives a writing credit if he completely overhauls the original music, thus creating a new melody.
But not because he decided that a guitar lick would sound good during the bridge, or that the third verse should replace the first, and the chorus should be shortened.



Another situation where Stevie appears to be damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.

If she brings in something simple and basic, then Lindsey gets most (if not all) of the credit for making it wonderful.
If she brings in something that's already arranged and fleshed-out, then she's holding Lindsey back.

Always puzzling to me.



Johnny,

Great Point, thats exactly my feelings too. Just because LB is the producer doesnt mean that everything stevie brings to him has to be 100% arranged by him. I know carne stated that he would imagine that is how lindsey would feel,That she is holding back his creative process, I myself do not think even lindsey would ever feel that way, he knows what stevie is capable of, and at least he gives her that credit. good points johnny

[Johnny Stew]

I think Lindsey only “saw the light” after it had been suggested that Stevie may not be able to tour for any more than 40 dates. He most likely was willing to “eat the cost” of the double album before that. I don’t know if Stevie played hardball with him, something like: “if this album is a double then I won’t be touring that much with you”, similar to Lindsey’s threat when he wanted to leave the majority of his material off the album if the double album idea was abandoned. It’s just a suggestion, nothing more.I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

The documentary clearly shows that, once Warner Bros. promised the band that they'd be able to keep the list-price down to a reasonable level, Stevie's concerns about the double-album were alleviated, and she was then fine with the notion.

The other thing people seem to forget is that Lindsey wasn't the only one with a ton of material up for possible release.
She gave the band 17 songs for potential inclusion, and then brought another 4 with her when she finished her tour. At least 10 of those songs were fully recorded for the project... just slightly over half of which would have been released if they went with a 12-13 track album.

So why would she want to take the time and energy to record nearly an entire solo album's worth of tracks, to then force Lindsey into a single disc release? Especially when Warners promised to keep the cost down.
That would be cutting her nose off to spite her face.

I think what happened is just that Lindsey was probably considering all the possible scenarios, and when he realized how much his initial idea depended on a lengthy tour (in fact, he said he needed Fleetwood Mac to do a long tour, then another album, and then yet another tour, in order to earn the money back for his investment), he got cold feet, and decided it was more reasonable (for his situation) to release a single disc album.

In the documentary, it seems likely that he cited the possibility of Stevie not wanting to do a lengthy tour, simply because it's safe to assume that Mick & John wouldn't balk about touring for an entire year. Which leaves Stevie as the wild-card.
I don't think it was because Stevie made threats.

[Johnny Stew]

Lindsey himself clearly respects Stevie as a songwriter, so I guess that's all that matters.Yes, he does, Sharon... and that says it all. :) :nod:

[CarneVaca]

I follow the music industry quite a bit, and in the average situation, a producer receives a writing credit if he completely overhauls the original music, thus creating a new melody.
But not because he decided that a guitar lick would sound good during the bridge, or that the third verse should replace the first, and the chorus should be shortened.

Not so, Johnny. A producer does NOT have to overhaul the song completely to get writing credit. From Charlie Craig, who has written more than 300 songs recorded by people like Reba McIntyre and Alan Jackson:

Whenever an artist, or producer changes a few words, or/and especially a few lines, normally the writer has been contacted and given their approval. Not many artists or producers will ask for writers credits for somethig like that. Normally, when a writer gives up a portion of the writing it is something that has taken place prior to the artist going into the studio. Sometimes the artist or producer gets with the writer and co-writes the changes, or makes the changes without the writer being present, but has agreed to those changes, and giving up a writer's percentage of the song. And it does help if you can co-write with an artist or producer.

Read between the lines there too. He says normally the writer is contacted, implying that doesn't always happen. In this case we are talking about a somewhat more complex scenario, involving a writer, a recording artist and a producer. But there are cases in which the producer and artist/songwriter share writing credit.

In more straight-forward cases, producers often get songwriting credit for minor tweaks. For instance, Glen Ballard got co-writing credit for every single song on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill. Do you think he sat with her from the songs' inception through the creation of the chord structure and melody for every song? I doubt it. Most likely she brought him songs at different stages of completion and he grabbed some songwriting credit for himself. This scenario is quite common actually, so I'm a little surprised you're not familiar with it.

If she brings in something simple and basic, then Lindsey gets most (if not all) of the credit for making it wonderful.
If she brings in something that's already arranged and fleshed-out, then she's holding Lindsey back.

Always puzzling to me.

I have to call unfair on this, Johnny. You always seem to want to generalize. You seem to have trouble distinguishing from folks who plain hate Stevie and others, like me, who like some of her work but are not crazy about a good deal of it. It's almost like you can't accept that it's OK to only like some of her work. I merely suggested that bringing a near-finished song to Lindsey to produce might prevent him from being as creative with it as he otherwise would. Maybe, maybe not. Besides, I have no problem with Stevie giving him piano demos that he arranges into beautiful songs. It worked beautifully in the old days. Interestingly, those are the songs that I find a lot more appealing than her more current stuff. I don't see why that is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation. :shrug:

[dissention]

I follow the music industry quite a bit

Considering the state of the biz these days, poor you. :laugh:

:wavey:

PS: Catch Divas Live last night? My gal Cyndi brought the house down.

[CarneVaca]

I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

I don't even think Lindsey implied that at all. For all we know, he was concerned that she wouldn't do more than 40 dates because of her health. There's no way to know what he meant exactly, or to extrapolate from that comment that she threatened to cut the tour short. She might have, but we just don't know.

[dissention]

interestingly, Stevie is not closed to the idea of LB's brilliant guitar in lieu of what she has done in a demo. A good example of this is the opening riff of SYW's Thrown Down as opposed to the sensational WOS version. LB's version is far more subtle. So, I think I come back again to they are a creative team when in FM, esp. now, and giving one all of the credit is incorrect IMO.

:shrug:

I thought that it was said in quite a few interviews last year before the album came out that Lindsey was pretty much completely responsible for TD. I remember him saying that it was one of his faves because he got to do what he wanted with it and had free reign. He said there was something like three versions he had worked on.

[Johnny Stew]

Also, there is the situation of the outside producer wanting a writing or musical credit so they get paid more $$$$$ than just for producing. This is done all of the time for big name producers with minor acts. Stevie clearly would be beyond that and LB is part of her band, etc. Yet, Stevie clearly has shared credit before. I believe she shared with Rupert Hines and she has given FM things before as mentioned earlier :shrug:Yes, some producers (like Simon Cowell) insist on an additional credit, so that they make more money over and above what they'd earn as a producer.

Many in the industry have balked at that arrangement, and have complained that it's an unfair practice (for both the artists and the struggling songwriters).
And I've read that Celine Dion even once dropped a couple songs from one of her albums at the last minute, because a producer was making that demand.

[Les]

I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

I think it's because of a few things:

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

If one begins speculating upon those three things, it's not a big leap to consider what Gaius mentioned as a possibility. Obviously, we can't know for sure because we don't get to see the final argument and Lindsey's and Mick's comments seem sort of pointedly vague and ambiguous, and there is no comment from Stevie about the topic at all, which some may find a little odd. So it's just up for guesses and speculation, like so much else.

I haven't watched it again recently, but I don't remember any mention that Warner Bros. was doing anything to keep the album's cost down. It seemed it was Lindsey who was offering to absorb costs to keep the album's price down, not them. I also don't really recall seeing Stevie ever say that she was happy with the double idea. But that may just be my memory.

[Johnny Stew]

I thought that it was said in quite a few interviews last year before the album came out that Lindsey was pretty much completely responsible for TD. I remember him saying that it was one of his faves because he got to do what he wanted with it and had free reign. He said there was something like three versions he had worked on.I don't remember Lindsey commenting on "Thrown Down," but I know that Stevie was the one who said that it was recorded three different times and three different ways, and that "the third time was the charm."

[strandinthewind]

I think they are still touring to pay for the advance WB gave, pay for the recording of the record, and to make money for themselves. Clearly, SYW did not sell near what WB paid in expectance of and/or WB has lost money on it. I mean no one in their right minds spends at least a million and most likely over two million (LB recorded for well over five years :laugh:) to make a record that sells only 800,000 copies. Then, the alleged $750,000 (?) per concert guarantee for the principles. So, I think that was the 40 date deal. In other words, WB wants to make their money and can only do so via the touring and Stevie may have not wanted to tour for over 40 dates - but she has wound up doing so. But, I have no proof of that. It is just a feeling.

[strandinthewind]

I don't remember Lindsey commenting on "Thrown Down," but I know that Stevie was the one who said that it was recorded three different times and three different ways, and that "the third time was the charm."
and that third time was LB's version. In fact, she specifically commented on it as did LB - he said something like he immediately thought of that simple opening riff. I love it when they work together :cool:

[CarneVaca]

I think it's because of a few things:

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

... and there is no comment from Stevie about the topic at all, which some may find a little odd.

Very good points, Leslie. This is my feeling also. In my last post on this, I was merely pointing out that it's hard to extrapolate from Lindsey's almost-throwaway comment that there was a threat. Yet, if there wasn't, it's a very odd comment indeed. I tend to lean toward believing there was. But I can't prove it.

[Les]

I think they are still touring to pay for the advance WB gave, pay for the recording of the record, and to make money for themselves. Clearly, SYW did not sell near what WB paid in expectance of and/or WB has lost money on it. I mean no one in their right minds spends at least a million and most likely over two million....

You've got me scratching my head. Where are you getting these numbers from?

From what I've been reading by those who work in the industry and post on these boards -- SYW exceeded WB's expectations. (I have no personal knowledge of this, just going by posts of those with some professional background in this.)

[strandinthewind]

. . .There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had . . . .

For what it is worth, I remember someone said it was about the "running order," which could mean the sequencing, which is horrible IMO, and/or the songs that made it on as opposed to the four that got "left off."

[strandinthewind]

You've got me scratching my head. Where are you getting these numbers from?

From what I've been reading by those who work in the industry and post on these boards -- SYW exceeded WB's expectations. (I have no personal knowledge of this, just going by posts of those with some professional background in this.)

Well, I think it is easy to assume the rent on that house on Bel Air was at least $25,000 a month, which brings us to $600,000 right there. Then, Mick specifically talked about selling in the millions, not the hundreds of thousands. Finally, common sense suggests that 800,000 or so sold is a let down of mammoth proportions after the over 4 million sold for The Dance and the similar success of TITN. So, I think it is safe to assume they thought SYW would sell at least a million and it did not. So, how is Warner's going to make their money from the favorable advance back? There is only one way and that is touring, which has been successful as far as I can see.

[teedee]

Not so, Johnny. A producer does NOT have to overhaul the song completely to get writing credit. From Charlie Craig, who has written more than 300 songs recorded by people like Reba McIntyre and Alan Jackson:



Read between the lines there too. He says normally the writer is contacted, implying that doesn't always happen. In this case we are talking about a somewhat more complex scenario, involving a writer, a recording artist and a producer. But there are cases in which the producer and artist/songwriter share writing credit.

In more straight-forward cases, producers often get songwriting credit for minor tweaks. For instance, Glen Ballard got co-writing credit for every single song on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill. Do you think he sat with her from the songs' inception through the creation of the chord structure and melody for every song? I doubt it. Most likely she brought him songs at different stages of completion and he grabbed some songwriting credit for himself. This scenario is quite common actually, so I'm a little surprised you're not familiar with it.



I have to call unfair on this, Johnny. You always seem to want to generalize. You seem to have trouble distinguishing from folks who plain hate Stevie and others, like me, who like some of her work but are not crazy about a good deal of it. It's almost like you can't accept that it's OK to only like some of her work. I merely suggested that bringing a near-finished song to Lindsey to produce might prevent him from being as creative with it as he otherwise would. Maybe, maybe not. Besides, I have no problem with Stevie giving him piano demos that he arranges into beautiful songs. It worked beautifully in the old days. Interestingly, those are the songs that I find a lot more appealing than her more current stuff. I don't see why that is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation. :shrug:


you have no problem with stevie bringing in a piano demo, but if she brings in a near finished demo, Houston there is a problem. I think we can accept that ppl like some of her songs,maybe even none of her songs , and some ppl like some of his songs... it just seems that you( Carne) cant accept when ever someone states something about lindsey , its one thing to state your opinion, but its another to always try to justify the matter in a one way situation. These are two individuals that compliment one another whether you want to accept that or not. i myself think lindsey is a great producer of her work, but that doesnt make me think less of her solo work one bit. you can go on and on about how the guitar riffs influenced you to appreciate a stevie song, but its kind of TEEDious as you would say, lol..to always have to remark that thats the only reason you like a song.. All i know if i was a fan of FM and I had such a problem with listening to half the songs on an album by the other writer in a group,as do you do, i cant help but feel what a waste of time it must be for you to sit thru a 2.5 hour concert and only hear an hour or so of what you want to hear or to have to skip half the songs on a cd....

[Les]

Well, I think it is easy to assume the rent on that house on Bel Air was at least $25,000 a month, which brings us to $600,000 right there.

Yes, Bel Air is expensive, but pulling these numbers out of the air isn't really a terribly concrete way to figure their expenses.

Then, Mick specifically talked about selling in the millions, not the hundreds of thousands.

Perhaps Mick is disappointed then. ;)

Finally, common sense suggests that 800,000 or so sold is a let down of mammoth proportions after the over 4 million sold for The Dance and the similar success of TITN.

I personally would tend to doubt highly that WB was under the impression that SYW would sell anything like the Dance. The Dance was selling the hits by the reunited-for-the-first-time-in-10-years fireflies, with a built-in PR machine called VH1 that played the concert constantly. MTV even played it. SYW was 5 years later, less one member, selling new material, with nothing like the welcome on VH1 or anywhere that the Dance received. I believe WB had in fact already dropped the band, which is why they were then negotiating a new contract for this album.

[dissention]

I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

The documentary clearly shows that, once Warner Bros. promised the band that they'd be able to keep the list-price down to a reasonable level, Stevie's concerns about the double-album were alleviated, and she was then fine with the notion.

The other thing people seem to forget is that Lindsey wasn't the only one with a ton of material up for possible release.
She gave the band 17 songs for potential inclusion, and then brought another 4 with her when she finished her tour. At least 10 of those songs were fully recorded for the project... just slightly over half of which would have been released if they went with a 12-13 track album.

So why would she want to take the time and energy to record nearly an entire solo album's worth of tracks, to then force Lindsey into a single disc release? Especially when Warners promised to keep the cost down.
That would be cutting her nose off to spite her face.


If Warners said that the cost would be low to do a double, why then didn't they do it? Lindsey sure as hell wouldn't have said no.

Why would Stevie record a full album of material if she wanted a single disc? Because when most artists record an album, they don't just record an albums worth of material; they record more and then decide what they want to use. It's just common practice.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, Bel Air is expensive, but pulling these numbers out of the air isn't really a terribly concrete way to figure their expenses. I am not pulling them out of thin air. I know the rental rate in Bel Air - just not on that particular house. [/QUOTE]


Perhaps Mick is disappointed then. ;)

Along with WB I can assure you :laugh: Do you really think WB jumped for joy when SYW failed to produce a hit single and did not sell at least a million copies :shrug: I mean come on, what do you think FM sold them on, the hope of selling only 800,000 copies :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Read between the lines there too. He says normally the writer is contacted, implying that doesn't always happen. In this case we are talking about a somewhat more complex scenario, involving a writer, a recording artist and a producer. But there are cases in which the producer and artist/songwriter share writing credit.

In more straight-forward cases, producers often get songwriting credit for minor tweaks. For instance, Glen Ballard got co-writing credit for every single song on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill. Do you think he sat with her from the songs' inception through the creation of the chord structure and melody for every song? I doubt it. Most likely she brought him songs at different stages of completion and he grabbed some songwriting credit for himself. This scenario is quite common actually, so I'm a little surprised you're not familiar with it.I actually commented on this, based on one of Jason's posts, before I saw this one from you.

Like I said, there are instances when a producer insists upon having a writing credit... usually it's a powerful producer with an upstart artist/songwriter.

In regards to Alanis Morisette, she has sole credit for the lyrics, but shares the credit with Glen Ballard for the music.
Maverick wanted a big launch for Alanis, and it's not hard to imagine that Alanis and Glen actually physically wrote the music on these songs together before production began in earnest. After all, the folks at Maverick purposely put the two together with the intention of them collaborating.


I have to call unfair on this, Johnny. You always seem to want to generalize. You seem to have trouble distinguishing from folks who plain hate Stevie and others, like me, who like some of her work but are not crazy about a good deal of it. It's almost like you can't accept that it's OK to only like some of her work. I merely suggested that bringing a near-finished song to Lindsey to produce might prevent him from being as creative with it as he otherwise would. Maybe, maybe not. Besides, I have no problem with Stevie giving him piano demos that he arranges into beautiful songs. It worked beautifully in the old days. Interestingly, those are the songs that I find a lot more appealing than her more current stuff. I don't see why that is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation. :shrug:It's perfectly fine by me if some folks don't like all of Stevie's work. I can accept that.

dissention dislikes a number of Stevie's songs, and while I might not agree with some of dis' opinions, it doesn't bother me if we don't see eye to eye.

You pondered that perhaps Stevie was "limiting" Lindsey by bringing in a fully realized song, and I don't understand why that would be so.
Add to that, the fact that a few posts prior, you implied that only Lindsey has "the true spirit of cooperation," and a very real bias shows thru.

We talk about "artistic vision" fairly often around here, and Stevie's artistic visions are just as valid as Lindsey's.
And certainly he still takes the songs and runs with them, so I don't see how Stevie could be limiting him in any way. It's not as if she has said, "here, the song is done... I recorded it at home. It's exactly the way I want it, so don't make any changes, and put it on the record just like it is."
She still considers it a demo, and still seems to put her complete trust in Lindsey to make it even more wonderful, by doing the voodoo that he do so well.

[dissention]

I don't remember Lindsey commenting on "Thrown Down," but I know that Stevie was the one who said that it was recorded three different times and three different ways, and that "the third time was the charm."

Lindsey specifically said that TD was one of his faves on the album because it was the one that he had the most input on. I'll try to find the article.

[sodascouts]

It made me wonder if perhaps she is not restricting the development of the song in some ways. When you bring a producer like Lindsey a near-finished product, it's gotta be somewhat limiting to his creative process. Were I he, I would view it that way.


:: sighs heavily :: Stevie can't win! She's either making Lindsey do all the work with her skeletal demos, or not allowing him to do enough with her almost-complete demos.

Smile at You was pretty complete, too. Lindsey sure didn't feel compelled to leave that one alone - if only he had! It was one of the very rare cases where his influence was actually detrimental, IMHO (admittedly, this is far outweighed by all the times he HAS enriched Stevie's songs significantly, as in "Thrown Down" on SYW, for instance.)

[dissention]

I think they are still touring to pay for the advance WB gave, pay for the recording of the record, and to make money for themselves. Clearly, SYW did not sell near what WB paid in expectance of and/or WB has lost money on it. I mean no one in their right minds spends at least a million and most likely over two million (LB recorded for well over five years :laugh:) to make a record that sells only 800,000 copies. Then, the alleged $750,000 (?) per concert guarantee for the principles. So, I think that was the 40 date deal. In other words, WB wants to make their money and can only do so via the touring and Stevie may have not wanted to tour for over 40 dates - but she has wound up doing so. But, I have no proof of that. It is just a feeling.

They've toured long enough to pay any debts, doll. Stevie and Lindsey stand to make quite a pretty penny on this tour, especially with the outrageous ticket prices. Cripes, how many shows have made over a million, almost two?

[CarneVaca]

you have no problem with stevie bringing in a piano demo, but if she brings in a near finished demo, Houston there is a problem. I think we can accept that ppl like some of her songs,maybe even none of her songs , and some ppl like some of his songs... it just seems that you( Carne) cant accept when ever someone states something about lindsey , its one thing to state your opinion, but its another to always try to justify the matter in a one way situation. These are two individuals that compliment one another whether you want to accept that or not. i myself think lindsey is a great producer of her work, but that doesnt make me think less of her solo work one bit. you can go on and on about how the guitar riffs influenced you to appreciate a stevie song, but its kind of TEEDious as you would say, lol..to always have to remark that thats the only reason you like a song.. All i know if i was a fan of FM and I had such a problem with listening to half the songs on an album by the other writer in a group,as do you do, i cant help but feel what a waste of time it must be for you to sit thru a 2.5 hour concert and only hear an hour or so of what you want to hear or to have to skip half the songs on a cd....

Here's some advice for you: A sentence starts with a capital letter, i.e., A instead of a. Also, see this thing after the question mark? . That's called a "period." That's how a sentence ends. Try it out. Otherwise stop wasting your time replying to my posts.

[shackin'up]

I think it's because of a few things:

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.


What would not be a thread for sure...Stevie might have said: "Okay you may eat that money, and plan a lot of touring and another album to cach up again financially but I can't guarantee you that I will be present over such a big period of time: I don't know if my body lets me tour for over a year, and hey, we're fleetwood mac, so we will never know what sh*t is going to happen inside the bandpolitics. So, do it, but take responsibility for your own actions."

In other words: I don't want to interfere, boy, but get real and keep things healthy over here. Make it a single.

[dissention]

So, how is Warner's going to make their money from the favorable advance back? There is only one way and that is touring, which has been successful as far as I can see.

I doubt that they gave that great of an advance. Just looking at Stevie's last solo albums numbers and the fact that Chris wasn't involved, common sense says that they didn't think it would go platinum, so I highly doubt the advance was as large as you believe.

[CarneVaca]

:: sighs heavily :: Stevie can't win! She's either making Lindsey do all the work with her skeletal demos, or not allowing him to do enough with her almost-complete demos.

I just love the reactions around here. I challenge you to quote back to me any words I've ever used to knock Stevie for bringing Lindsey her piano demos. Never happened.

Nor was I necessarily saying that she SHOULDN'T bring him near-finished product. I was merely speculating on whether it inhibits his creativity. Is that such a sin? If speculation were outlawed on these boards, a lot of people around here, including you, would have very little to say.

[strandinthewind]

They've toured long enough to pay any debts, doll. Stevie and Lindsey stand to make quite a pretty penny on this tour, especially with the outrageous ticket prices. Cripes, how many shows have made over a million, almost two?

it depends - did WB sell their rights to the rev. from the shows ahead of time to the show's producers? I am unsure there was that much $$$$ to go around after the much ballyhooed $750,000 guarantee. I mean the trucking companies, the stage hands, the back up players, the venue, etc. all get paid first. But, I could be wrong as I do not know the exact numbers per show. Are they listed on that site you found the other day?

[dissention]

Do you really think WB jumped for joy when SYW failed to produce a hit single and did not sell at least a million copies :shrug: I mean come on, what do you think FM sold them on, the hope of selling only 800,000 copies :laugh:

They had one of their biggest singles (along with Landslide) in over 15 years with Peacekeeper, but that's not even worth mentioning. Warners wasn't expecting a hit single, look at the music industry! And I'm positive that they got the sales they were expecting.

[strandinthewind]

I doubt that they gave that great of an advance. Just looking at Stevie's last solo albums numbers and the fact that Chris wasn't involved, common sense says that they didn't think it would go platinum, so I highly doubt the advance was as large as you believe.


But, clearly, my numbers regarding production cost are not that far off :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

It wasn't in the documentary, but several of the articles and interviews published shortly before and after the release of the album, stated that the band had some major arguments about the running order, and that things got pretty heated between Stevie and Lindsey because of it.
Lindsey himself even stated that, at that point in time, he felt that Stevie was seeing the album in a less-than-positive way because of those particular arguments.

But, up to that time, it seemed to have been a done deal, as far as all parties concerned, that they were releasing a double album. And I'm merely pointing out that I don't believe Lindsey's concern about Stevie pulling out after 40-dates, was based on her trying to strong-arm him into releasing it as a single disc.


I haven't watched it again recently, but I don't remember any mention that Warner Bros. was doing anything to keep the album's cost down. It seemed it was Lindsey who was offering to absorb costs to keep the album's price down, not them. I also don't really recall seeing Stevie ever say that she was happy with the double idea. But that may just be my memory.

Perhaps it was edited out of the later broadcasts, but at one point Stevie clearly says that Warner Bros. has come back to them with the promise that they could keep the price down, and that she's now comfortable with the idea of a double-album.

Lindsey was offering to absorb the publishing costs, because the band would only get paid up to 12 songs... which would not have been in Warners' control, and has nothing to do with the retail price for the album.

[strandinthewind]

They had one of their biggest singles (along with Landslide) in over 15 years with Peacekeeper, but that's not even worth mentioning. Warners wasn't expecting a hit single, look at the music industry! And I'm positive that they got the sales they were expecting.

Perhaps they broke even or made a little money, but nothing like I think they all thought it could be. I mean, if this record had been released 15 years ago, it would have sold millions. Moreover, FM has nothing to sell but its name. And given the talent of the lawyers/managers involved (esp. La Nicks' people) they did not sell cheap - why should they?

[dissention]

Are they listed on that site you found the other day?

Child, I can't remember which site. Could you link the site that I linked but forgot about? :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Child, I can't remember which site. Could you link the site that I linked but forgot about? :laugh:

It was the one you were throwing in my face to demonstrate the dismal sales of Stevie TISL, Enchanted, and SA tours and record sales :laugh:

(P.S. for the faint of heart - -I am joking with Dissention here :cool: )

[CarneVaca]

I mean, if this record had been released 15 years ago, it would have sold millions.

If this album had been released 15 years ago, Say Goodbye and Red Rover would have been an impossibility.

[sodascouts]

:shrug:

I thought that it was said in quite a few interviews last year before the album came out that Lindsey was pretty much completely responsible for TD. I remember him saying that it was one of his faves because he got to do what he wanted with it and had free reign. He said there was something like three versions he had worked on.

He did say in a couple interview that he liked it because he had something to do with his sound, but he never pretended to be "completely responsible" for it. I think we ALL would have remembered such an outrageous statement.

[strandinthewind]

If this album had been released 15 years ago, Say Goodbye and Red Rover would have been an impossibility.

touche - but I was tallking about the popularity of FM in general :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

touche - but I was tallking about the popularity of FM in general :laugh:

Isn't it amazing that as a band, the Rumours lineup has actually released a fairly small amount of work? My other favorite band, Cracker, in comparison, has released almost twice as much material and the band only formed in 1990.

[strandinthewind]

Isn't it amazing that as a band, the Rumours lineup has actually released a fairly small amount of work? My other favorite band, Cracker, in comparison, has released almost twice as much material and the band only formed in 1990.


well, uhmmmmm - LB - uhmmmmmmm

:laugh:

AND - Stevie actually has quite a body . . . of work that is. But, yes, you would think they would have more.

[CarneVaca]

well, uhmmmmm - LB - uhmmmmmmm


Yeah, I know. Nothing annoys me more about the man.

[dissention]

It was the one you were throwing in my face to demonstrate the dismal sales of Stevie TISL, Enchanted, and SA tours and record sales :laugh:

(P.S. for the faint of heart - -I am joking with Dissention here :cool: )

Oh, now I remember. The one that all you Chiffonheads (Hey, I'm one, too)regard as bull****. ;) Even though it's the truth. :xoxo:

[dissention]

He did say in a couple interview that he liked it because he had something to do with his sound, but he never pretended to be "completely responsible" for it. I think we ALL would have remembered such an outrageous statement.

Oh lord. I meant that he implied he was the one who was most responsible for the sound of the song on the album.

If he had said he was "completely responsible" for TD, half of these people would **** where they sit and break their keyboards in anger. God forbid if Lindsey gets some credit for Stevie's songs.

[Les]

But, up to that time, it seemed to have been a done deal, as far as all parties concerned, that they were releasing a double album. And I'm merely pointing out that I don't believe Lindsey's concern about Stevie pulling out after 40-dates, was based on her trying to strong-arm him into releasing it as a single disc.

Fair enough. I'm merely pointing out that I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to have pondered what Gaius suggested either.

Clearly, we don't really know the full answer.

[sodascouts]

I just love the reactions around here. I challenge you to quote back to me any words I've ever used to knock Stevie for bringing Lindsey her piano demos. Never happened.

You don't knock Stevie for bringing her piano demos to Lindsey. However, you often knock the demos themselves because they are so repetitive, simplistic, etc. This implies that Stevie is unable to edit herself. By bringing Lindsey a near-complete track, she has obviously done so. Yet, instead of commending this, we treat is as something to criticize.

Nor was I necessarily saying that she SHOULDN'T bring him near-finished product. I was merely speculating on whether it inhibits his creativity. Is that such a sin? If speculation were outlawed on these boards, a lot of people around here, including you, would have very little to say.
with regard to this:
It made me wonder if perhaps she is not restricting the development of the song in some ways. When you bring a producer like Lindsey a near-finished product, it's gotta be somewhat limiting to his creative process.

Obviously you're speculating - speculating that once again Stevie is bringing Lindsey down. Of course people will react negatively to that. This surprises you?

P.S. Sorry for repeating Johnny Stew's point, by the way. Hadn't read that far yet.

[sodascouts]

Oh lord. I meant that he implied he was the one who was most responsible for the sound of the song on the album.

If he had said he was "completely responsible" for TD, half of these people would **** where they sit and break their keyboards in anger. God forbid if Lindsey gets some credit for Stevie's songs.

Lindsey should take credit for his work on Thrown Down. He really took the song to another level. Anyone who listens to the demo must acknowledge that.

But I don't remember Lindsey even implying that he was mostly responsible, just stating that he had contributed a lot to it. There's a difference. I'm sure if he did you will be able to find it, though, so I'm not precluding the possibility that I've forgotten. However, I think you're just remembering it a little wrong, that's all.

[sodascouts]

Just in case you [teedee] forgot: I don't read your posts.

Another example of irony? ;)

[sodascouts]

I think it's because of a few things:

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

If one begins speculating upon those three things, it's not a big leap to consider what Gaius mentioned as a possibility. Obviously, we can't know for sure because we don't get to see the final argument and Lindsey's and Mick's comments seem sort of pointedly vague and ambiguous, and there is no comment from Stevie about the topic at all, which some may find a little odd. So it's just up for guesses and speculation, like so much else.


My own speculation: Steive was cool with the double album, but another fight came up. Could've been the running order, although it mystifies me why that would be such a big fat hairy deal. It was that fight, unrelated to the double album, that made Lindsey wonder if perhaps Stevie might bail (whether she overtly threatened to or not). The reason I don't think Stevie's' threat was about the double album was that she was fine with it in the documentary once the costs were brought down, and I don't see why she would lie. On the other hand, the really bad fight was left out. And the really bad fight, IMO, was the one that changed everything. I think cutting down the album was a consequence of the fight, but not the actual point of contention in it.

[dissention]

But I don't remember Lindsey even implying that he was mostly responsible, just stating that he had contributed a lot to it. There's a difference. I'm sure if he did you will be able to find it, though, so I'm not precluding the possibility that I've forgotten. However, I think you're just remembering it a little wrong, that's all.

Not remembering it wrongly, I just have a different interpretation from yours. :)

[Hawkeye]

So, I think it is safe to assume they thought SYW would sell at least a million and it did not.

first of all it still could sell a million copies. I believe it's at 815,000 now not 800,000 :p :laugh: That's really very close to million. And I believe Warners did not expect SYW to sell what it has. Here's why. SYW outsold Maddonna's latest CD by a Landslide (pun intended) But Madonna has been platnum for a while and SYW is not, which I really believe it should be. The reason's why Warners shipped more of Madonna and it failed. But it didn't expect much from Fleetwood Mac, it didn't ship all that much of it and it's sales far exceeded their expectations.

[Hawkeye]

Lindsey should take credit for his work on Thrown Down. He really took the song to another level. Anyone who listens to the demo must acknowledge that.

Oh AMEN. I gringed when I found out that that horrible Thrown Down was going to be on SYW. But when I heard the song on the CD, WOW. What Lindsey did with the song was MAGIC. It's like he had a magic wand in his hand when he was producing Thrown Down.

Now the Smile At You thing I'm mixed on. I was at first of course dissapointed by the change from the demo. But I love what he did to the song, although I also love the song before he did what he done. I can't decide which I like better. That last minute of the album version of SYW is better then anything on any demo. I still miss the oure fire of the angry version. But I'm glad he did what he did, because now we have Smile At You As it is, and as it was, so we have two almost comletely different songs to enjoy.

[teedee]

Here's some advice for you: A sentence starts with a capital letter, i.e., A instead of a. Also, see this thing after the question mark? . That's called a "period." That's how a sentence ends. Try it out. Otherwise stop wasting your time replying to my posts.


Just continue as you were, as not reading them and skip, ok? Thank you.

[teedee]

[QUOTE=sodascouts]You don't knock Stevie for bringing her piano demos to Lindsey. However, you often knock the demos themselves because they are so repetitive, simplistic, etc. This implies that Stevie is unable to edit herself. By bringing Lindsey a near-complete track, she has obviously done so. Yet, instead of commending this, we treat is as something to criticize.


Once again Carne, your famous line of "please go back and quote where I said such a thing" and im teedious.... Its the way you imply the negative, can you not see that? Just because its not in the exact wording, you imply just that. You make for alot of the negative reactions, do you think ppl here can not see thru your wording. You always state a plus, with a bigger negative.

[teedee]

Another example of irony? ;)


Just incase you forgot, it doesnt matter to me.

Nothing personal.

Yeah Irony? Right back at ya.


not directed at you soda

[strandinthewind]

first of all it still could sell a million copies. I believe it's at 815,000 now not 800,000 :p :laugh: That's really very close to million. And I believe Warners did not expect SYW to sell what it has. Here's why. SYW outsold Maddonna's latest CD by a Landslide (pun intended) But Madonna has been platnum for a while and SYW is not, which I really believe it should be. The reason's why Warners shipped more of Madonna and it failed. But it didn't expect much from Fleetwood Mac, it didn't ship all that much of it and it's sales far exceeded their expectations.

It could, but odds are it will not at around less than 5,000 a week sold, etc. I am guessing with that number, but clearly it is not selling in the tens of thousands a week or it would be in the Top 100. I wish, however, it would and stranger things have happened :laugh:

I am basing my guess that WB thought it might sell more on the huge press it got at the time of release that FM got (Today Live, Leno, numerous interviews, AOL First Listen, NBS slots in popular series, etc.) - WB must have been behind these. Then, the HUGE large arena tour. Then, the comments from Mick about selling millions and that LB would be crushed if it sold only a few hundred thousand (or something like that). Then, the HUGE price for that house, the advance which was sweet enough to trump other offers. All those things add up to WB and FM hoping for a runaway record. I mean why would WB and FM put all of that money into something they did not think would be a success. I would not. I would have chosen a much safer route if I thought my investment had a little to no chance of paying off in a bog way. I mean I am sure all parties realized the bet was less than 50/50 as evidenced by Stevie's comments on the general record buying public. But, the foregoing things make me think they thought about big results from this record, which failed to materialize. :cool:

[Johnny Stew]

Just a few thoughts....

If Warners said that the cost would be low to do a double, why then didn't they do it? Lindsey sure as hell wouldn't have said no.I answered this earlier, but it might have gotten lost in the shuffle... Lindsey was offering to take a loss on a double, because the band would only get paid up to 12 tracks. He was going to put up the difference so that Stevie, Mick & John would get paid the full amount.
The part Stevie was commenting on, was the fact that Warner Bros. came back to the band with the promise that they could keep the list-price down... which alleviated Stevie's fears that a double album would be too expensive for many of the more casual fans to purchase.
Why would Stevie record a full album of material if she wanted a single disc? Because when most artists record an album, they don't just record an albums worth of material; they record more and then decide what they want to use. It's just common practice.Yes, you're definitely right about artists recording more material for an album than what they'll ultimately use.
In my haste to finish my post, I didn't articulate my thought-process correctly.
I think Bon Jovi and the Rolling Stones traditionally record twice as much as they'll need, purposely... but where Fleetwood Mac and Stevie are concerned though, I don't think they've ever purposely completed two times more than they'll need (except 'Tusk,' of course, where it seems that fairly early on they decided that they wanted to release a double album, and worked to that end).
There may be a few songs that are fully completed and not released on an album... stuff like "Silver Springs" and "Garbo"... but most often, other songs that they started working on will be abandoned before they're finished, and especially before they're mixed and mastered (ie: "Julia," "Sanctuary," the original "Planets Of The Universe" and "Think About It").
So they might have about four completed songs "leftover," but not another twelve completed songs.
So it just seemed unlikely to me that Stevie would follow the process of recording all of these songs, and seeing them all completed during the mixing and mastering process, and then at that late point in the game, threaten to bail out early on the tour, if the album isn't released as a single disc, with only 5 or 6 of her songs.
If he had said he was "completely responsible" for TD, half of these people would **** where they sit and break their keyboards in anger. God forbid if Lindsey gets some credit for Stevie's songs.Not me. I want Lindsey to get all of the credit he deserves (and he deserves a LOT of credit for his talents).
I'm just here to make sure he doesn't get more than he deserves, by siphoning credit away from the other extremely talented members of this band. ;)
Oh AMEN. I gringed when I found out that that horrible Thrown Down was going to be on SYW. But when I heard the song on the CD, WOW. What Lindsey did with the song was MAGIC. It's like he had a magic wand in his hand when he was producing Thrown Down.

Now the Smile At You thing I'm mixed on. I was at first of course dissapointed by the change from the demo. But I love what he did to the song, although I also love the song before he did what he done. I can't decide which I like better. That last minute of the album version of SYW is better then anything on any demo. I still miss the oure fire of the angry version. But I'm glad he did what he did, because now we have Smile At You As it is, and as it was, so we have two almost comletely different songs to enjoy.I liked the very first demo I heard of "Thrown Down," as I thought the song had a LOT of promise. But Lindsey definitely took it to another level for 'Say You Will.'
A lot of people actually prefer that "wall of sound" version, but my heart belongs to Lindsey's final product on the album.
"Smile At You" is another example of a lot of people preferring an earlier version of the track, but again, I prefer Lindsey's arrangement on the album best. It has almost a Middle-Eastern feel to it, and whereas the old demo is more of a straightforward Stevie belter, the album version became more haunting and intriguing. In my humble opinion. :D

[strandinthewind]

. . . "Smile At You" is another example of a lot of people preferring an earlier version of the track, but again, I prefer Lindsey's arrangement on the album best. It has almost a Middle-Eastern feel to it, and whereas the old demo is more of a straightforward Stevie belter, the album version became more haunting and intriguing. In my humble opinion. :D

My only beef with SAY on SYW is that Stevie deleted a whole bunch of great lyrics. I think the song needs those even though I like anyway.

As for TD, I think Hawkeye was referring to the original syth demo., which I HATED, but I could be wrong. :cool: Also, while I like the song, I think the chorus is a little anti-climatic. I wish they would have jazzed it up a little. But, such is life . . .

[Johnny Stew]

As for TD, I think Hawkeye was referring to the original syth demo., which I HATED, but I could be wrong.Yeah, I think that's the one he meant, too.

I just re-read that part of my post, and I'm kind of mentioning both versions in the same breath, so unfortunately it looks like I was referring to the "wall of sound" version as the one that I thought had a lot of promise.
Actually, I was referring to that original synthy version that Stevie demoed around the time of 'TISL.' And then I was commenting on the fact that most people seem to prefer the "wall of sound" version.

I should have made that clearer. :o
(And, hey, look at that! We finally have a blushing/embarrassed emoticon!! I'm gonna be using this sucker a lot! :laugh: )

[Hawkeye]

I was refering to the original solo demo. But I also believe Lindsey made the right decision going with the album version and not the Wall of Sound version.

[CarneVaca]

You don't knock Stevie for bringing her piano demos to Lindsey. However, you often knock the demos themselves because they are so repetitive, simplistic, etc. This implies that Stevie is unable to edit herself. By bringing Lindsey a near-complete track, she has obviously done so. Yet, instead of commending this, we treat is as something to criticize.

I knock the demos because demos bore the **** out of me. So shoot me. I don't listen to Given Thing, the My Little Demon demos or the Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind demo. I'm not as excited about the reissue bonus discs because I don't have patience for demos and outtakes. So does this make me a Stevie hater? Perhaps a little perspective is needed here.

Obviously you're speculating - speculating that once again Stevie is bringing Lindsey down. Of course people will react negatively to that. This surprises you?

Suggesting that bringing him near-finished product might hinder his creativity as a producer is the same to you as "bringing him down?" Let's get a little more dramatic, shall we? [That was sarcasm.]

[CarneVaca]

Another example of irony? ;)

Not at all.

[CarneVaca]

Just continue as you were, as not reading them and skip, ok? Thank you.

Don't flatter yourself. I didn't even try to read that mess.

[strandinthewind]

I knock the demos because demos bore the **** out of me.

Infidel~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE the demos - sometimes more than the actual finished song, e.g. POTU (No Light), SOTOM, and (eek) Silver Springs :cool:

[teedee]

Don't flatter yourself. I didn't even try to read that mess.


lol , why would I be flattered. at least say what you mean and mean what you say. I dont need to know that you arent reading, the proof is right here in your uhemmm "non post", lol. get over yourself, its only a chat board.

[Johnny Stew]

I knock the demos because demos bore the **** out of me. So shoot me. I don't listen to Given Thing, the My Little Demon demos or the Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind demo.I hope you take this in the spirit in which it's intended... but, dude, if you're not listening to "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind," then you're crazy! :p :lol:

Unless there's a really rudimentary & lame demo version that I'm unfamiliar with. :confused:

[sodascouts]

I hope you take this in the spirit in which it's intended... but, dude, if you're not listening to "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind," then you're crazy! :p :lol:

Unless there's a really rudimentary & lame demo version that I'm unfamiliar with. :confused:

There is a demo version of it - while I wouldn't call it lame, it doesn't have the horns that make the GLAAD version. And I can understand why Carne doesn't want to listen to Lindsey's rough demos, since he doesn't even speak coherent English in many of them. I admit that in my obsessiveness I listen to them all religiously. And I quote: "in..hihihi... ay.. amis.. ooo.. ming.....ayyyy...ine....it's a given thing!"

[sodascouts]

Really? I didn't know about the demo of SGCYM! It's ultimately my favourite song by Lindsey, I should have this. I put it on repeat when I fall asleep with my headphones on. So it pops up all over the place in my dreams. I need to hear this demo version. Where can I download it from?

I can e-mail it to you. Just send me your e-mail. Either that or I can put it up on my site next week.

[shackin'up]

I can e-mail it to you. Just send me your e-mail. Either that or I can put it up on my site next week.

Please, put it up on your site? There are more fans of this song! I'd really like to hear how this song evolved.

:wavey:

gerald

[shackin'up]

There is a demo version of it - while I wouldn't call it lame, it doesn't have the horns that make the GLAAD version. And I can understand why Carne doesn't want to listen to Lindsey's rough demos, since he doesn't even speak coherent English in many of them. I admit that in my obsessiveness I listen to them all religiously. And I quote: "in..hihihi... ay.. amis.. ooo.. ming.....ayyyy...ine....it's a given thing!"

Oooh, I'm totally into Lindsey's rough takes. It just shows the "painting"-concept of how he builts these songs. I love the Tusk-reels, too where he just experiments with words and fragmented sentences to find the right ideas for melodylines etcetera. These things all have an edge that the total finished production often lacks. I would die on the spot when he once will have the guts to record basic tracks and put them out without all the reworking for ages. Given Thing is one of my favorites because it has that edgy, loose feel and a gorgeous headsticking hook. (both versions)

In one of the remasters-reviews I read an interesting observation about Lindsey's songs on Tusk. Something about that he tried to catch the punk/wave-attitude of that moment, but in retrospect was more ahead of the low-fi-movement of the early nineties. I totally relate to that.

gerald

[CarneVaca]

I am basing my guess that WB thought it might sell more on the huge press it got at the time of release that FM got (Today Live, Leno, numerous interviews, AOL First Listen, NBS slots in popular series, etc.) - WB must have been behind these. Then, the HUGE large arena tour. Then, the comments from Mick about selling millions and that LB would be crushed if it sold only a few hundred thousand (or something like that). Then, the HUGE price for that house, the advance which was sweet enough to trump other offers. All those things add up to WB and FM hoping for a runaway record. I mean why would WB and FM put all of that money into something they did not think would be a success.

I agree with you on this. I think the band and the label were expecting much better sales. They were kidding themselves of course. This has been part of my frustration all along. Lindsey scrapped his solo record plans because he thought the brand FM would reach more people, which it undeniable has, but I can't imagine that they thought one year later the album would still not have reached platinum.

He should have released GOS and immediately followed with an FM record and tour. Or, even better, he should release a solo record later this year. With the right amount of publicity and the fresh memory of his concert antics, he might sell a couple hundred thousand, which is not huge but would still be better than the Cradle sales. These people have to come to grips with the idea that they can't sell records in the same numbers they did earlier in their careers.

Warner definitely put a lot of marketing muscle behind the release of SYW, so the issue is not lack of promotion.

[CarneVaca]

Unless there's a really rudimentary & lame demo version that I'm unfamiliar with. :confused:

There is a different mix, which is not actually a demo. I also have a demo of Deep Dense played on acoustic. Interested, Johnny?

[CarneVaca]

And I can understand why Carne doesn't want to listen to Lindsey's rough demos, since he doesn't even speak coherent English in many of them.

:lol: True enough. Once or twice is OK. But the gibberish gets to me. The only Lindsey gibberish I truly enjoy is that 1993 live version of Eyes of the World.

[strandinthewind]

I agree with you on this. I think the band and the label were expecting much better sales. They were kidding themselves of course. This has been part of my frustration all along. Lindsey scrapped his solo record plans because he thought the brand FM would reach more people, which it undeniable has, but I can't imagine that they thought one year later the album would still not have reached platinum.

He should have released GOS and immediately followed with an FM record and tour. Or, even better, he should release a solo record later this year. With the right amount of publicity and the fresh memory of his concert antics, he might sell a couple hundred thousand, which is not huge but would still be better than the Cradle sales. These people have to come to grips with the idea that they can't sell records in the same numbers they did earlier in their careers.

Warner definitely put a lot of marketing muscle behind the release of SYW, so the issue is not lack of promotion.

I know. I think a big part of what "killed" the potential for a runaway record was the live morning appearance in NYC, where, and mind you I love FM, they sounded horrible for whatever reason. I know so many people from non-fans to casual fans to fans who saw that and were just right or wrong horrified by it. Then a few days later the Leno appearance was not much better. The Public is fickle, esp. when the act is over 50 and not in spandex. And that to me was sad. But, that is the way it was.

[CarneVaca]

Oooh, I'm totally into Lindsey's rough takes. It just shows the "painting"-concept of how he builts these songs. I love the Tusk-reels, too where he just experiments with words and fragmented sentences to find the right ideas for melodylines etcetera.

Yes, from an academic point of view, listening to Lindsey's different takes on the songs is quite enjoyable. However, those aren't demos, strictly speaking. There are little tidbits in there that either disappear from the final mix or become less obvious in the final mix that are absolutely delicious. I listen to that stuff because it gives me ideas for my own stuff. Of course, I don't play these takes nearly as often as I play the final cuts.

Something about that he tried to catch the punk/wave-attitude of that moment, but in retrospect was more ahead of the low-fi-movement of the early nineties. I totally relate to that.

You're quite astute, my friend, as most of us Lindsey fanatics are. But your level of astuteness just went up a notch or two. Tusk indeed foreshadowed what was to come in the 90s.

[diamondsnake]

I agree with you on this. I think the band and the label were expecting much better sales. They were kidding themselves of course. This has been part of my frustration all along. Lindsey scrapped his solo record plans because he thought the brand FM would reach more people, which it undeniable has, but I can't imagine that they thought one year later the album would still not have reached platinum.

He should have released GOS and immediately followed with an FM record and tour. Or, even better, he should release a solo record later this year. With the right amount of publicity and the fresh memory of his concert antics, he might sell a couple hundred thousand, which is not huge but would still be better than the Cradle sales. These people have to come to grips with the idea that they can't sell records in the same numbers they did earlier in their careers.

Warner definitely put a lot of marketing muscle behind the release of SYW, so the issue is not lack of promotion.

Maybe it has to do with a lack of hit singles. They could have had a hit if they had a video and tangible cd-single released to the stores.

As far as record sales go, I don't think anyone is selling millions of copies anymore, are they? Even the newer, fresher artists aren't!

[CarneVaca]

I know. I think a big part of what "killed" the potential for a runaway record was the live morning appearance in NYC, where, and mind you I love FM, they sounded horrible for whatever reason.

That was a pathetic appearance. It was too cold and the band didn't seem ready to play. And you're right about the Letterman appearance too. I doubt that would affect sales too much, but if the same crowd saw both appearances, who knows? I shan't speculate. ;)

[CarneVaca]

Maybe it has to do with a lack of hit singles. They could have had a hit if they had a video and tangible cd-single released to the stores.

As far as record sales go, I don't think anyone is selling millions of copies anymore, are they? Even the newer, fresher artists aren't!

I don't think CD singles sell much anymore, what with downloads and all.

I believe you are right that selling millions of copies is tougher these days, but some artists, probably fewer than before, still do.

[stefan]

There is a different mix, which is not actually a demo. I also have a demo of Deep Dense played on acoustic. Interested, Johnny?
O.K. now folks- did I miss something? I thought I downloaded all the GOS stuff, even "Given thing" and so on. But I never heard of a "Deep dense" demo. Nor of a SGTCYM one. Carne, is "Deep dense" less than 5 MB? If so I would be glad if you could send me the file too :blob1:

[dissention]

I know. I think a big part of what "killed" the potential for a runaway record was the live morning appearance in NYC, where, and mind you I love FM, they sounded horrible for whatever reason. I know so many people from non-fans to casual fans to fans who saw that and were just right or wrong horrified by it. Then a few days later the Leno appearance was not much better. The Public is fickle, esp. when the act is over 50 and not in spandex. And that to me was sad. But, that is the way it was.

Damn skippy. When they made those appearances, I didn't even think they were the same band. I mean, even the AOL session songs weren't very good. But nothing beats the Today Show and Leno for sheer awfulness. Remember the threads from last year after they made those appearances? I think every one of us ripped them new assholes. :laugh: And the Leno shows planted the seeds of inspiration for the song parodies. :D

[Hawkeye]

Yeah those performances on Leno and Today were HORRIBLE. But who knows maybe the band did that on purpose. Lower our standards for the tour and then BLOW US AWAY with their live shows. I know that was the case for me. The band that went on tour was not the same band that made those TV appearances.

[Hawkeye]

Warner definitely put a lot of marketing muscle behind the release of SYW, so the issue is not lack of promotion.

I don't know if I agree. Was there really THAT much promotion. It must have SEEMED liek alot but really fir like ONE week they gave they did like a few things on ONE station. What if you're a non fanatic fan and you'e a CBS person :laugh: They did Dateline, Leno, and The Today Show. How many people are up to watch the Today Show. And like I sadi some people watch Letterman. And if they were only doing NBC why didn't they at least do SNL for the first time in the band's history.

I will say radio stations around here played the hell out of Pecekeeper so it did get lots of radio play. And SYW got moderate play too. Thrown Down and SYHA got NONE.

[cliffdweller]

The songs are definitely related. Who knows which came first? But their position in the sequence is telling. Not that Funny says, "don't blame me, please." There's still some emotional turmoil going on there, and the cacophony of guitar sounds at the end plays into that turmoil. In I Know I'm Not Wrong, the protagonist has made some more progress. There is resignation in his attitude: When he says don't blame me here, he's evolved from pleading, "don't blame me," to being certain he's right: "Don't blame me... I know I'm not wrong." Now compare the sing-songy riff in I Know I'm Not Wrong to the Not that Funny guitar work. The IKINW riff is structured and happy, as opposed to the pull-your-hair-out explosion of noise at the end of Not That Funny.

In a word: YES!

Great summation. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

Really? I didn't know about the demo of SGCYM! It's ultimately my favourite song by Lindsey, I should have this. I put it on repeat when I fall asleep with my headphones on. So it pops up all over the place in my dreams. I need to hear this demo version. Where can I download it from?

There is a different mix, which is not actually a demo. I also have a demo of Deep Dense played on acoustic. Interested, Johnny?

I didn't realize there was a different version of "Somebody's Gotta Change Your Mind" either... I missed out on that one somehow. :confused:

Hopefully Nancy will be able to post it on her site... I'm interested in hearing it.
I agree with Lux... "SGCYM" is a brilliant song, and one of LB's all-time best. :nod:

Carne... I have two versions of "Deep Dense."
One is 4:13 in length, and the other is 4:41 in length. The latter version definitely sounds "finished," whereas the former is rougher and somewhat sparse.
Is this the version you're referring to, or is there a third version that I'm lacking?

[Johnny Stew]

In regards to the album's success, I think it would have had more legs if the entire promotional blitz hadn't happened all within the first week it was in the stores.
It had a great first week, and then promotion all but died, and the album sold less and less each consecutive week.

But still, it is edging its way ever closer to a million copies sold, and that's nothing to sneeze at. :)

[strandinthewind]

In regards to the album's success, I think it would have had more legs if the entire promotional blitz hadn't happened all within the first week it was in the stores.
It had a great first week, and then promotion all but died, and the album sold less and less each consecutive week.

But still, it is edging its way ever closer to a million copies sold, and that's nothing to sneeze at. :)

But, how much more promotion could they have done? I mean there were ads in major mags, reviews (mostly favorable) in major magazines, radio, t.v., etc. I mean they had to get ready to go on tour. So, to me it was not the lack of promotion that caused the low sales numbers. Moreover, they have an entire taped concert for Blockbuster out there that no one has seen outside of the PK and SYW stuff and the random sniglets in the docs. I think that was to be used a la The Dance, but was not.

BTW - at if 180,000 units are needed to reach platinum, at an average of 5,000 units a week (which is optimitic at best) it will take 3 years. But, like you, my hope springs eternal :laugh:

[shackin'up]

Is this the version you're referring to, or is there a third version that I'm lacking?

If that IS the case, I'm interested,too.

[Johnny Stew]

But, how much more promotion could they have done? I mean there were ads in major mags, reviews (mostly favorable) in major magazines, radio, t.v., etc. I mean they had to get ready to go on tour. So, to me it was not the lack of promotion that caused the low sales numbers. Moreover, they have an entire taped concert for Blockbuster out there that no one has seen outside of the PK and SYW stuff and the random sniglets in the docs. I think that was to be used a la The Dance, but was not.That's one of the things I'm talking about... they needed to do something in conjunction with VH1. Have the network broadcast snippets from that Blockbuster Studios rehearsal concert, or do some little sit-down interview that they could have aired.

I was baffled that FLEETWOOD MAC had a brand new album coming out, and I wasn't seeing a single bit of promotion on VH1... not until the "Peacekeeper" video was finally released about a month later. And that wasn't much.

I also think they should have spread things out a little better, so that the Today Show, Dateline, and Leno appearances weren't all broadcast within the same 7-day timeframe.
Or perhaps appear on Letterman a few weeks later.

Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now.

[strandinthewind]

That's one of the things I'm talking about... they needed to do something in conjunction with VH1. Have the network broadcast snippets from that Blockbuster Studios rehearsal concert, or do some little sit-down interview that they could have aired.

I was baffled that FLEETWOOD MAC had a brand new album coming out, and I wasn't seeing a single bit of promotion on VH1... not until the "Peacekeeper" video was finally released about a month later. And that wasn't much.

I also think they should have spread things out a little better, so that the Today Show, Dateline, and Leno appearances weren't all broadcast within the same 7-day timeframe.
Or perhaps appear on Letterman a few weeks later.

Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now.

Interestingly, it made no sense whatsoever to me from then to release the Destiny Rules doc a year after the record. I mean people love reality t.v. They should have used that to their advantage and made a miniseries of the doc leading up to the record or released it with the record. That was a HUGE marketing mistake IMO.