Stating the obvious

[JamieSPC]

(Jamie puts on his flame suit)

I don't know if there's anything to this stuff in the Globe and Mail article about Steive being mad about something, but let's be real for just a second...

If I were Lindsey, John and Mick, I would pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to any suggestion Ms. Nicks has for the band, the business, the album's running order, the color shirt they should wear, etc. Through three decades she has consistently been the most commercially successful member of Fleetwood Mac, she owns the band's only #1 single, she's sitting back counting the dough from all the covers of "Landslide," and she's widely regarded as one of the most influential females in the history of rock and roll. If I were Stevie, I would (rightly) expect those credentials to carry some weight in a band situation.

(Jamie sprays himself with asbestos)

Not to belittle the contributions of the guys in the band, but take a long hard look at what happens when you take Stevie out of ANY of their respective equations: albums that bomb, businesses that fail, sham "Fleetwood Mac" bands that play on a bill with REO Speedwagon... come on.

If the goal is critical acclaim and success, I'd be willing to listen to Stevie. She's had plenty of both.

(Jamie rolls around on the floor trying to put out the flames)

And as for the much-discussed grammar errors in the new "Smile At You," why do we assume this was Stevie's doing? Have those words EVER appeared in a previous version of the song? Is that not Lindsey's voice singing them? Could it not be his own lyrical addition to the song? (I'm asking cause I don't know.)

Just some thoughts as we wait to see how the public receives a new Fleetwood Mac album that rests solely on the shoulders of Stevie and Lindsey...

Flame on if you must. ;)

[strandinthewind]

My only gripe is your belittling of REO Speedwagon, whom I still love. :mad: I mean who else could have hit album called "You can tune a piano, but you can tuna fish" :cool: Next, you will be saying something about Pat Benatar (love her!) and I just cannot have THAT . . . :laugh: :laugh:

[jwys_soapbox]

You've got a point. Still, I'm taking the whole thing with a grain of salt. Most of this is probably hype. Afterall, so much of the appeal of this band is the soap opera aspect. I'm so jaded lately that I believe it's possible that the whole friction thing is a publicity tool.

John

[JamieSPC]

Still, I'm taking the whole thing with a grain of salt. Most of this is probably hype.

You're probably right. Wouldn't that be hilarious? I mean, let's not count on the MUSIC for our noteriety, for goodness sakes. ;)

Next, you will be saying something about Pat Benatar (love her!) and I just cannot have THAT . . .

Pat Benatar = no-talent hack.

(Just kidding... I actually think she has quite the fine voice.)

[wetcamelfood]

No flames from me here, as I've stated in other threads, I'm not even reading most of these articles as I'm "not buying in to it" even "being true" as I agree that I think it's just hype and I do also agree that maybe SN's musical views may not have been taken as seriously as they maybe should have been by some of the other members etc. I guess we'll never know for sure BUT..."critical acclaim & success" SHOULDN'T be "what it's about" (though I think it unfortunately is what they (or certainly Mick) think(s) it's about).

I have no problem with FM being on a bill with ANY other artist regardless of how "superior" some people may feel FM is to those other artists. I'd rather see them "embarrassed" (for lack of a better phrase and if things need to be put in such a way) in "this way" and "bomb out" and have it be about the music than creating music for (what "I" believe is...) the wrong reasons but that's just me. :) I'm not saying the BN stuff is bad in comparison to other FM lineups/members or anything, I do like it just as much, I just think the "reunion" stuff is a step backwards (or at least sidewards) than forward but I've suspected Mick has cared more about the money than the music for long time now and would rather brown nose to them than just get new people and go on and let then do their solo albums (like he used to do) but I won't go there again. :)

So that's it, just a few sparks, it's safe to come out now. :)

John

[joe]

Originally posted by JamieSPC
bands that play on a bill with REO Speedwagon... come on.


hey...i actually like them too! you can't mess with "Riding the Storm Out".....it's very "Rhiannon" to me! love it!

i respect your opinion though....

:thumbsup:

[David]

Originally posted by JamieSPC
(Jamie puts on his flame suit)Why would anyone flame you for posting something interesting on this board?

I don't know if there's anything to this stuff in the Globe and Mail article about Steive being mad about something, but let's be real for just a second...

If I were Lindsey, John and Mick, I would pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to any suggestion Ms. Nicks has for the band, the business, the album's running order, the color shirt they should wear, etc. Through three decades she has consistently been the most commercially successful member of Fleetwood Mac, she owns the band's only #1 single, she's sitting back counting the dough from all the covers of "Landslide," and she's widely regarded as one of the most influential females in the history of rock and roll. If I were Stevie, I would (rightly) expect those credentials to carry some weight in a band situation.What makes you think that the other members of the band aren't paying attention to Stevie's suggestions? What does that have to do with the little tiffs they all had making & mixing the album?

Not to belittle the contributions of the guys in the band, but take a long hard look at what happens when you take Stevie out of ANY of their respective equations: albums that bomb, businesses that fail, sham "Fleetwood Mac" bands that play on a bill with REO Speedwagon... come on.Not this again! This gets argued about all the time! It's not even a "right" vs. "wrong" issue because some fans (even some fans on this here very board) think "Behind the Mask" & "Time" were splendid albums. I don't, but some do! One man's "bombs" are another man's musical gems.

If the goal is critical acclaim and success, I'd be willing to listen to Stevie. She's had plenty of both.Now here's a statement that is half wrong. It's a verifiable fact that Stevie had the greatest commercial success of any single member of the band, but her ex-paramour was, demonstrably & by far, the critics' pet all these years, not Stevie. Hie yourself over to the Blue Letter Archives & just start reading various critics in the rock press on each of them. Start in 1977 or so & just work your way up through the decades. Buckingham was generally the critics' darling, not Stevie.

And as for the much-discussed grammar errors in the new "Smile At You," why do we assume this was Stevie's doing? Have those words EVER appeared in a previous version of the song? Is that not Lindsey's voice singing them? Could it not be his own lyrical addition to the song? (I'm asking cause I don't know.)That's an interesting surmise, but it's unlikely. Thanks for voicing it, though---it's something to think about! Personally, I think it's a non-issue, anyway. I can probably find a grammar or usage error in every single Fleetwood Mac song. Nobody in his right mind (note the correct use of the singular pronoun) expects pop-rock songs to adhere to the rules of standard English.

[ERigby818]

Originally posted by jwys_soapbox
Most of this is probably hype. Afterall, so much of the appeal of this band is the soap opera aspect. I'm so jaded lately that I believe it's possible that the whole friction thing is a publicity tool.
Hm. I've been thinking this myself after seeing the lyrics to Thrown Down and Everybody Finds Out. It has crossed my mind...just crossed it, mind you, that they as a band might want to capitalize on the drama. I wondered that too for a minute during the Dance with those Landslide and Silver Springs moments. After finding out Lindsey was getting married (and finding out Bleed To Love Her was about Kristen) I was like, "was all that just a charade?":shocked: I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was asking that question. See, I allowed myself to get cynical for a moment. But then I'm like, smacking myself in the head, like, no, they couldn't do that...It's Lindsey and Stevie. They can't just create that out of nowhere!! And as for those lyrics on the new album, I believe Stevie would never, ever write anything with dollar signs in her eyes. She writes from her heart. Honestly, the only person who I've felt has really personally tried to capitalize on the drama was Mick with his trashy book. It's a good thing he doesn't try to sing or write songs:rolleyes:.

As for your initial point, Jaime, sure, Stevie has earned the right to have a lot of creative control, as opposed to the suits at the record label. They should shut up and grovel at her feet, and not tell her what to do. She knows what her fans want, not them. But she should respect Lindsey's suggstions because he does have the midas touch with her Mac music and for that reason is largely responsible for her success. JMO.
-Sonia

[David]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
I'm not saying the BN stuff is bad in comparison to other FM lineups/members or anything, I do like it just as much, I just think the "reunion" stuff is a step backwards (or at least sidewards) than forward but I've suspected Mick has cared more about the money than the music for long time now and would rather brown nose to them than just get new people and go on and let then do their solo albums (like he used to do) but I won't go there again. John, if Peter Green had rejoined Fleetwood Mac in 1997 (instead of Buckingham & McVie & Nicks), would you still consider it a step back?

Not everybody believes that Fleetwood Mac should be the Pickup Band in Eternal Personnel Flux. Personally, I think the band should have just ended on at least two or three different occasions by now. Sometimes, when bands just go away, Rhino Records can step in & start cranking out vault releases. I'd rather have that stuff than "Say You Will" or "Time" or "Trouble in Shangri-La" or "The Chain: 25 Years of Ill-Chosen Tracks."

[Les]

Originally posted by David
What makes you think that the other members of the band aren't paying attention to Stevie's suggestions? What does that have to do with the little tiffs they all had making & mixing the album?

Exactly. Because she may not have gotten her way on all things, does not mean she didn't get her way on some. I doubt highly that anyone else got things their way all the time either. People have scuffles and tiffs and eventually get over them, sooner or later.

[JamieSPC]

What makes you think that the other members of the band aren't paying attention to Stevie's suggestions? What does that have to do with the little tiffs they all had making & mixing the album?

That's the question, isn't it? Just once I'd love to hear Lindsey say, "Stevie's a brilliant writer, she deserves her success, and she's had plenty of it without me." Would that be so hard? Instead, we get, "I'm the one sorting her stuff out and turning it into songs."

Not this again! This gets argued about all the time! It's not even a "right" vs. "wrong" issue because some fans (even some fans on this here very board) think "Behind the Mask" & "Time" were splendid albums. I don't, but some do! One man's "bombs" are another man's musical gems.

I respect your opinion and anyone else's that likes these albums. I own them... (Stevie WAS on "Behind the Mask" by the way). But it's my opinion that anyone would have a hard time mounting an argument that "Time" is anywhere NEAR the same league musically as "Rumours," "Tusk," or even "Mirage." But that's all subjective.

[Vianna]

"But that's all subjective."

Exactly=:-)

I know Mac music from all the incarnations. While there are good songs from all the incarnations, I happen to like the sound produced by the Peter Green lineup and the Rumours line-up the best. This is not to say there is anything lacking from the other lineups-I just don't like the sound as much.

Stevie and Lindsey have "creative" differences all the time. Nothing new there=:-)

[BBALLGYPSY17]

Originally posted by ERigby818
Hm. I've been thinking this myself after seeing the lyrics to Thrown Down and Everybody Finds Out. It has crossed my mind...just crossed it, mind you, that they as a band might want to capitalize on the drama. I wondered that too for a minute during the Dance with those Landslide and Silver Springs moments. After finding out Lindsey was getting married (and finding out Bleed To Love Her was about Kristen) I was like, "was all that just a charade?":shocked: I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was asking that question. See, I allowed myself to get cynical for a moment. But then I'm like, smacking myself in the head, like, no, they couldn't do that...It's Lindsey and Stevie. They can't just create that out of nowhere!! And as for those lyrics on the new album, I believe Stevie would never, ever write anything with dollar signs in her eyes. She writes from her heart. Honestly, the only person who I've felt has really personally tried to capitalize on the drama was Mick with his trashy book. It's a good thing he doesn't try to sing or write songs:rolleyes:.


Stevie OR Lindsey would *Never* intentionally write lyrics to make further Drama dents into a widely known ACCURATE personafication of themselves and their relationship. They're writing what they feel....END of story. Now am I going to say that they're not aware of what it does to the public when they make 'moon eyes' at eachother....I'm NOT NAIVE,:rolleyes: but again, would they ever take FULL advantage of all the Rumours that continue to spread about them and bitterness,break-up, and continued sordid affairs......No way in hell! And I can't continue on the topic because people know how I feel about it;)

~alex~*....an act my ass...Mick in Singing/ songwriting=SCARY CONCEPT

[WindingRoad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JamieSPC
[Just some thoughts as we wait to see how the public receives a new Fleetwood Mac album that rests solely on the shoulders of Stevie and Lindsey...


Well, I don't know anything about the music industry and the production of an album....

Also, I'm not interested in anybody's motivation for putting the album out. That's their baggage and each will have to deal with the consequences on their own...

What I AM interested in is the MUSIC ! I haven't heard much of the album yet because my computer stinks. (Trust me, if you had to wait for RealPlayer to re-buffer every 12 seconds, you'd walk away too! :nod:

My concern is that, what I HAVE heard, does not sound anything like a B/N album (as I've heard it referred to on the boards.) It sounds more to me like either Lindsey singing back-up to Stevie, or Stevie singing back-up to Lindsey.

Lindsey himself said in GWA that he'd like to do another album so that he and Stevie could build the songs together like they always had. But they couldn't do that on this album because Stevie's songs were already done when he got them.

So to say that the success of the album rests on the shoulders of Stevie and Lindsey...well, that would be a very bad scenario.

Because this album reminds me of a cook who forgot to go grocery shopping. So the cook goes into the fridge and the pantry and says, "Well, I'll take a little of this and a little of that and I've got some leftovers of this, and I'll put them all together in this here pot and see how it all comes out." Well, you KNOW it ain't gonna taste too good. It might be edible, but you probably won't LIKE it.

So, that's what worries me. Fortunately, Lidnsey is an excellent "cook". Maybe everything will turn out alright.

Susieq :wavey:

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by David
John, if Peter Green had rejoined Fleetwood Mac in 1997 (instead of Buckingham & McVie & Nicks), would you still consider it a step back?

Yes, I would. I don't know where this perception comes from that I "think PG is God" because it's not true. As I've said all along and will always say, I like all of the members equally musically. :)

Originally posted by David
Not everybody believes that Fleetwood Mac should be the Pickup Band in Eternal Personnel Flux.

I never said and/or thought everyone else did and/or should believe that.

Originally posted by David
Personally, I think the band should have just ended on at least two or three different occasions by now. Sometimes, when bands just go away, Rhino Records can step in & start cranking out vault releases. I'd rather have that stuff than "Say You Will" or "Time" or "Trouble in Shangri-La" or "The Chain: 25 Years of Ill-Chosen Tracks."

I agree and would have been just as happy if they had ended the band, before "The dance" is the perfect example.

I too, would rather have the band end and have Rhino clean up the vault by adding what they have on the end of the remastered back catalog titles but I guess we'll have to wait and see. It just seems unfortunate that they are the type of band that would rather just "disappear" than say to the press in an official way "we've broken up" so such mopping up exercises could move along faster.

My feeling though is that if they feel as though they "have" to continue, it'd be more fresh with new personnel rather than drag out the oldies but goodies (whether it be those members from the Rumours lineup, PG days, Bob Welch era, BTM, Time or otherwise). This is JMHO just as you've stated yours and I respect how you feel and I can see what you're saying too. :)

(BTW, I still haven't heard back from McLees yet on the report of those remasters we heard about last week so I suspect we're getting the blow off but I will carry on as planned and send him my e mail in letter form registered mail on the 11th and assuming I don't hear back by, well, I'll just say shortly after the 25th (since I'd imagine it'll take a few days for them to receive the letter), I'll then have those of you here that are interested help me bombard him with letters etc. but more on that here shortly after the 25th :) )

John

[Les]

Originally posted by JamieSPC
That's the question, isn't it? Just once I'd love to hear Lindsey say, "Stevie's a brilliant writer, she deserves her success, and she's had plenty of it without me." Would that be so hard? Instead, we get, "I'm the one sorting her stuff out and turning it into songs."

Lindsey: "Stevie, you're brilliant, you deserve your success and you've had plenty of it without me."

Stevie: "Hey thanks!"

Okay, now what? They still have to work through conflicts and different ideas and reach compromises when they're working together because it's the nature of the beast. Stevie's got her solo career to call all of the shots. I'm assuming there is something about working in a band where she isn't the sole leader that appeals to her or she wouldn't keep coming back to it.

The assumption that Stevie is unhappy about the band and it must be Lindsey's fault is sadly an all too common scapegoating of Lindsey in relation to anything involving Stevie.

[JamieSPC]

Lindsey: "Stevie, you're brilliant, you deserve your success and you've had plenty of it without me."

Stevie: "Hey thanks!"

Okay, now what?


That happened, really? Good. NOW I feel better. ;)

[Les]

Hehe. My favorite is when Charlie Rose was asking Lindsey about her back in 1984 and Lindsey was in the middle of saying that Stevie's had great success and she deserves it because she's worked very hard for it and... then Charlie cuts him off in mid-sentence. Not one of Charlie's finer moments. ;)

[JamieSPC]

Les,

You wouldn't happen to know where I could get a copy of that interview, would you? That probably wasn't one of Rose's best moments, but on the whole I really like his show and he seems to consistently be the best-prepared and best-researched interviewer out there.

Occasionally, DVDs will have one of his shows as a special feature. There's one of Quentin Tarantino (either on "Pulp Fiction" or "Jackie Brown") that's classic.

~Jamie

[CarneVaca]

[Mr. Vaca, returning from a 48-hour struggle with a nasty virus, followed by a wrestling contest with a monitor that resulted in a trip to Best Buy for a new monitor: :] ]

Interesting discussion here. Jamie, I don't know if your points about the band following everything she suggests are dead on. I mean, after all, we'd be getting seven- to nine-minute songs from Ms. Nicks all the time. That would get tiring by any fandom standard.

This goes to the core of the frustration Lindsey fans feel: Lindsey is the musical genius, Stevie had the image and the mysterious lyrics and the rest of the band is mighty competent. I can't tell you how many times I've played Lindsey's solo stuff to friends, who are awestruck, but they won't go buy the albums. Why? I just can't explain it.

I have no doubt Stevie has a lot to contribute to the band still, but I believe it is Lindsey who remains the architect of the sound.

[JamieSPC]

I mean, after all, we'd be getting seven- to nine-minute songs from Ms. Nicks all the time.


BRING IT ON!!!!!

(he says, remembering the incredibly self-indulgent and practically incomprehensible "D.W. Suite" and the rambling nature of some of Stevie's piano demos and then says...)

Um, never mind.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by JamieSPC
BRING IT ON!!!!!

(he says, remembering the incredibly self-indulgent and practically incomprehensible "D.W. Suite" and the rambling nature of some of Stevie's piano demos and then says...)

Um, never mind.

:laugh: :laugh:

[Les]

Originally posted by JamieSPC

Les,

You wouldn't happen to know where I could get a copy of that interview, would you? That probably wasn't one of Rose's best moments, but on the whole I really like his show and he seems to consistently be the best-prepared and best-researched interviewer out there.



I've got a crappy old VHS copy of the show that I could probably try to copy for you. I'll warn you though, this isn't one of his hugely in-depth interviews. It's not bad, but this was in the days before Charlie had that intimate, sitting across from each other at the table, kind of setup he has these days. I was sort of disappoined the first time I finally saw this interview because I was hoping for a longer and certainly more thoughtful interview with Lindsey since Charlie is usually so good at that these days. I guess this was a little before he hit his stride. Lindsey wasn't in the studio with him even, but on satelite somewhere else and looking decidedly uncomfortable about staring into the camera lense whenever Charlie asked him a question. ;)

Feel free to PM though if you're interested and I'll see what I can do.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Les
The assumption that Stevie is unhappy about the band and it must be Lindsey's fault is sadly an all too common scapegoating of Lindsey in relation to anything involving Stevie. Exactly, Les.
And I feel the same way about Stevie constantly being the scapegoat anytime there is tension within the band.
She's not the only one who has an opinion or an ego.

And, as I've said before, I really think this particular thing has been blown entirely out of proportion.
For all we know, the very next day after that interview, she could have apologized for having been difficult (if, in fact, she was), and the whole thing could have blown over.

She and Lindsey were getting along quite well on the Mark & Brian interview, interacting with each other, and giggling often.
Both were also complimentary towards each other.

I still look to that as the more current example of how the band is getting along.

[Wayne2]

Originally posted by JamieSPC
(Jamie puts on his flame suit)


Not to belittle the contributions of the guys in the band, but take a long hard look at what happens when you take Stevie out of ANY of their respective equations: )

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002L9Y.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Gazza]

Haha!


Actually, I love Stevies voice on Seven Wonders. Be fair now.

[David]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Yes, I would. I don't know where this perception comes from that I "think PG is God" because it's not true. I guess many of us are pigeonholed to varying degrees. I'm generally thought of as a somewhat cranky Stevie hater. But I'd push my own mother out of the way if you were showing me a video of a hot Wild Heart show.

P.S. I definitely don't like all the members of Fleetwood Mac equally. Dave Mason, for example, was a hole in the band's tableau in the mid 1990s. For my money, he brought nothing to the table besides self-consciousness & an unwillingness to commit. He was Pickup Band Central. He oozed "gun for hire" (except when the Mac played "We Just Disagree").

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And I feel the same way about Stevie constantly being the scapegoat anytime there is tension within the band. She's not the only one who has an opinion or an ego.Damn straight. In fact, it was Lindsey who stormed out of one of the mixing sessions.

She and Lindsey were getting along quite well on the Mark & Brian interview, interacting with each other, and giggling often. Both were also complimentary towards each other. I still look to that as the more current example of how the band is getting along.I think that they're getting along just fine these days. We all have friends who do & say little things that annoy us or who don't work the way we want to work, but we're still fond of those people.

[ricohv]

Because this album reminds me of a cook who forgot to go grocery shopping. So the cook goes into the fridge and the pantry and says, "Well, I'll take a little of this and a little of that and I've got some leftovers of this, and I'll put them all together in this here pot and see how it all comes out." Well, you KNOW it ain't gonna taste too good. It might be edible, but you probably won't LIKE it. [from WindingRoad's post (on pg1)]

What a great quote! I finally realize why from Tusk forward, even though there are some great songs, the albums as a whole don't stand up as well as the most classics (FM/FM or Rumours). Tango in the Night comes close, feeling like the whole album has a vibe as well as each song has a vibe, except it's obvious Stevie wasn't in on the collaboration. Although I love Seven Wonders, I think TITN would've almost been better minus her songs and plus You & I, Pt. 1 and Ricky, and just left as a Lindsey/ Chris project. It certainly would've felt more cohesive overall as an album.

I've thought all along as SayYouWill is played up as BuckinghamNicks II: no way! Lindsey & Stevie don't have to be together ;) to make that album, but they have to be together: working, crafting, writing, and collaborating. SayYouWill is 1/2 of a Lindsy solo album and 1/2 of a Stevie solo album, with some well known hired help :eek: !

[DownOnRodeo]

I see what you mean Richov (especially about Tango - a Lindsey/Christine affair with Ricky .... ohh yeah!)

But I see differently re: SYW as BNII. There's no doubt, as eveyone's saying, that Stevie just came in (for all of a year mind) to do the vocals.

But let's face it - what really counts: what goes on behind the scenes in the studio or the actual music which is produced. For all intents and purposes we shouldn't know what's going on behind the scenes - what's evident on the face of the music should tell the most important story.

As you point out, in Tusk onwards there was the creative fracturing etc, which it should be noted is due to some degree to Lindsey taking more total control of the productive process.

In Tusk we had a big division of vocals and in Tango we had the "phone-in effect" from certain members. Arguably Lindsey at the time didn't even frankly want to be working with Stevie and her songs to some degree.

That's all changed: In SYW we have the two singers swimming in and out of each other's songs, a reliance on dual harmonies instead of a solo vocal with an excessive b/g chorus. The whole reason he's been doing the album is because he's happy to working on Stevie's songs.

The only thing is that they have been working under extenuating circumstances with Stevie doing solo thing etc, and the GOS tracks all but complete after years of work. This, as Lindsey has said, would not be the case if a SYW2 was to come around the corner. Fingers crossed. Toes crossed!

So although we don't have the album here to really assess, I'd like to say that what we have is a transitional stage back to Buckingham Nicks; it's not a hotch-potch of various songs because you listen to them and you see Lindsey has got a real continuity with the sound, and they're in each others songs like not since loooong ago.

You've got to ask yourself - what counts more when you're evaluating the music? Drabs of info over the years about the recording sessions, or listening to the songs and hearing that Lindsey is endeavouring to craft a unified, raw band sound through the given material, and that the band is sounding better than in a long time (IMO).

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Wayne2
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002L9Y.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

But this sort of makes the point of this thread in that it begs the question of whether this album would have sold nearly as well without Stevie's contribution(s), esp. "Seven Wonders." Or, would the CM and LB songs have been as "good" without her limited contributions (her own admission)? For example, she is very present on "Little Lies" and "Everywhere." Indeed, according to Mick's book, Stevie essentially says or threatens to the band during this time, I know I was not here for this, but what will happen when people cannot hear me and they hear I did not work on this record. Attitude aside (which is a whole other discussion :cool: ), what she says is true from a sales point of view and, in my opinion, also from a quality point of view. For example, I think the three part staggered harmony in the chorus makes "Little Lies;" the same can be said for the harmony in Everywhere. Also, in many ways, this was the ultimate dream recording process for FM in that Stevie was gone during the players' time, which she stated in the Rumors documentary she usually goes in another room for anyway, and then she just shows up and gives the vocal. In the end, who can say for sure, but history indicates it would not have been as good in all aspects if the band had not listened to Stevie. Note: I am in no way saying "WISYA" and "WTTRS" are stellar contributions. But, I think LB could have done better with these, but did not. Maybe he listened to too much Stevie advice (Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby) - hey wait a minute :eek: :laugh: :laugh: Actually, Stevie's trick of getting LB to do the fading vocal in WISYA was brilliant in my opinon.

[macfan 57]

I do think of Tango in the Night as a Lindsey/Christine album. That's why I like it so much. If you add in "Down Endless Street", "Ricky" & "You And I Part I" in place of Stevie's songs, I'd love it even more. I always skip over Stevie's songs on that album anyway, although I agree, the three part harmony on "Little Lies" is terrific. They could have just called her "Little Lies" & "Everywhere" harmony a guest appearance. Without her contribution, the album might not have sold as much, but I could care less about sales. I'm just interested in how the music sounds to me.

As for the new album, in my mind it's merely Buckingham/Nicks II, which is of very little interest to me. Like several others who have posted in this thread, I am much more interested in hearing the unreleased stuff that is sitting in the vault. I hope it's true about the remastered & expanded reissues coming out in June. I also hope it's just the start of more to come.

[Gazza]

Maybe Buckingham/Nicks 2k would be a better name for it. It's certainly not like the Buckingham/Nicks from decades ago. It's a new dynamic. And from what I've heard so far, it's produced Fleetwood Mac's best album since Tusk, maybe Rumours. Lindseys heart seems to be in it, and is the way he's worked on Stevies songs this time really that different to how it's been before? And even if it is, so what? It's just the next stage of the band - if you don't like that - fair enough.

[JamieSPC]

As for the new album, in my mind it's merely Buckingham/Nicks II, which is of very little interest to me.

MERELY Buckingham/Nicks II? To quote Lindsey, "That's Enough For Me."

I've pined for Buckingham/Nicks II since the first (glorious) time I heard "Frozen Love." I'm thrilled about the band's new dynamic. It's like my wife said the first time she heard the old "wall-of-sound" version of "Thrown Down" back in the winter -- "There's just something magic about the two of them singing together."

Lindsey and Stevie have something beyond chemistry. Musically, it is magic. My hope for them (and part of the reason for this thread) is that they have come to respect each other enough to work together like they did in the beginning. There's no denying Lindsey is a musical genius. But after three decades, it's time to put Stevie in that category, too... as much as some still want to see her as the loopy hippie chick, the acumen behind the brilliant "Trouble in Shangri-La" is hard to ignore.

[CarneVaca]

From the Uncut review of "Say You Will:"

What makes Say You Will really great are Lindsey tracks like "Red Rover", "Come" and "Say Goodbye".

Talk about stating the obvious! ;)

[CarneVaca]

In response to some of the above, allow me to take a rare shot at my man Lindsey: "Down Endless Street" and "Ricky" are awful songs. Postively awful. Besides, weren't they from the "Mirage" sessions? I could be mistaken.

"You and I, Part I" is a great song that could have easily replaced any of Stevie's songs in Tango. That album would have been better without Stevie's contributions.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
That album would have been better without Stevie's contributions.

Wow - do you mean the 3 Stevie songs alone or do you mean the 3 as well as all of her vocal contributions on the LB and CM songs, esp. Little Lies and You and I, Part I. Just curious :wavey: :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Wow - do you mean the 3 Stevie songs alone or do you mean the 3 as well as all of her vocal contributions on the LB and CM songs, esp. Little Lies and You and I, Part I. Just curious :wavey: :laugh:

I mean her songs were terrible, and they could have easily done the harmonies on the other songs without her. Songs like Big Love and You and I, Part I (she's not on it) were better than good without her.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I mean her songs were terrible, and they could have easily done the harmonies on the other songs without her. Songs like Big Love and You and I, Part I (she's not on it) were better than good without her.

I disagree about Seven Wonders (which I love) - but hey I know not everyone likes it, etc. :( I do, however, agree with you about WTTRS (great sentiment - awful song in the end) and the "baby" fest in WISYA, alhough I mostly blame LB for what I think is weak production on WISYA.

Also, I think it would not have been possible to replace Stevie's voice on the harmonies on the other songs. I think it was Christine that once said (possibly in reference to the recording of Time) something to the effect of I never realized how much Stevie's voice adds until it wasn't there

Also, I may be having a senior moment ( there are many these days :laugh: ) and am therefore in total confusion, but is You and I Part I, the one that has the three voices softly saying "You, You You, You and IIIIIIIIII, Oh You, You, You, You and IIIIIIII" and is the slower one of the two. If so, I thought I remembered SN as being on that one in harmony. I'll have to go back and check that out. :laugh:

Finally, it sounded to me like the vocal manipulator used for the grunts on Big Love almost replicated a Stevie esq. voice. I know I just implied Christine said that could not be done :) , but a grunt is not a string of sung words, etc. Also, although it is not really fair to compare the two very different productions of Big Love, I really loved Stevie's added harmony on Letterman and the RRHOF versions of Big Love.

[Gazza]

I think Fleetwood Mac deserves better than "Time" as a last studio album or the cynical (although sometimes nice) "The Dance" myself. Hell, it's one of the greatest rock n roll stories of all time. Give it one last great album, which the critics are agreeing it is so far.

Thanks to Lindsey

;)

[EnchantedStorms]

Thanks to Lindsey


And Stevie. And Mick. And John. :D :D :D



~Angela~:wavey:

[wondergirl9847]

A thread about Stevie vs. Lindsey without peeps gettin' nasty!! NICE!! ;)

Seriously tho...some of us like Lindsey only, Stevie only, Stevie and Lindsey together, some like Stevie, and LOVE Lindsey or LOVE Stevie and like Lindsey...some hate the fact Chris is gone and want the band to just croak......DANG, so many combos!! LOL

Can I state the obvious? I can!! OKAY!! :blob1::blob2:

STEVIE is the FACE of Fleetwood Mac....

LINDSEY is the SOUND of Fleetwood Mac.

Stevie is THE person EVERYONE thinks of when you say Fleetwood Mac...it's frustrating for Lindsey (and Peter Green) fans, but hey, that's the way it is. :shrug:

Now, by that, I don't mean that Stevie is just a face and nothing more....her songs are awesome and I love her alot...but....I believe that Lindsey is the musical architect of the band. Stevie was on Behind the Mask, but it is not regarded as some great FM album (heck, MF himself won't even acknowledge THAT CHILD!!! LOL) because of why??? Because Lindsey wasn't there to make the magic happen. I'm talking AFTER he left....not before he came...the PG/DK/BW eras are TOTALLY different!!!! It's a different magic!! No Lindsey OR Stevie. He took Gypsy (a WAY TOO long not good piano demo!!!!!) and turned it into PURE MAGIC!!! Stevie is the poet....Lindsey is the SORCERER!! HA!!

[Johnny Stew]

In my opinion, 'Tango In The Night' NEEDS Stevie's contributions.

"Welcome To The Room... Sara," and "When I See You Again"... while they'll never be everyone's cup of tea... provide a depth and emotionality that the album would otherwise be somewhat lacking.

"Mystified" is pretty, but terribly bland... "You And I, part 2" is so lightweight it defies gravity... and "Family Man" is hardly a defining moment of introspection.

Of the aforementioned b-sides, "You And I, part 1" would have the best shot at adding anything interesting to the album.
"Ricky" is exactly what you'd expect a non-LP b-side to sound like, and "Down Endless Street" seems like an incomplete thought, though it has great potential.
(For anyone who complains about the repetition of the word "baby," in "When I See You Again"... just how many times can we hear Lindsey repeat the title over and over in "Down Endless Street"?)

Don't get me wrong, I love each and every track on 'Tango In The Night'... in fact, it's probably my favorite Mac album... i'm just saying let's not be so dismissive of Stevie's contributions, when Christine and Lindsey have a few less-than-stellar moments as well (if you're going to be nit-picky).

I also still strongly feel that the album's running order did a huge disservice to Stevie's contributions... causing them to seem like after-thoughts.
If they had been tracked-in throughout the album, her presence would have had much more appeal.

Try listening to the album in this order, and I think many people would soften their opinion of Stevie's value to 'Tango'....

Big Love
Everywhere
Seven Wonders
Caroline
Little Lies
Tango In The Night
Welcome To The Room... Sara
Mystified
Family Man
Isn't It Midnight
When I See You Again
You And I, Part 2

[ricohv]

Well in my world I'm by far the biggest Stevie fan I know. However, I still think even just pulling out a couple old songs + Seven Wonders (which did fit nicely) would've been better. Even if Mystified was bland, it still fit nicely into the bigger scheme: the album as a whole. And yes, You & I, Pt. II is lightweight, but that's what much of TITN is: synth pop (w/ a little bit of an edgy dark side).
However, in an effort to not disagree w/ everything you said Johnny Stew, I agree that your album order does help a little (and I remember a post or thread awhile back where you reorganized song orders on Mac albums so I know you have done your homework! i.e. you're a geek and I'm right there with ya brother!)
Here's a positive note about Stevie's TITN songs: at least none of them were What Has Rock N Roll Ever Done For You!!!

[JamieSPC]

when Christine and Lindsey have a few less-than-stellar moments as well


"Walk down this road
The road gets rough
I fall down
I get up"

What, you don't see the sheer musical genius in that? Wassamatter baby? That's gold!

Mother!
father!
brother!

:D

[wondergirl9847]

Lindsey himself has said he doesn't really like writing lyrics...so...but I like Family Man...the lyrics are not MIND BLOWING or anything, but it's a sweet sentiment especially in restrospect since now he is...a FAMILY MAN...and that guitar frickin ROCKS!!!!!! :nod::thumbsup:

You know what Lindsey SHOULD do?!?! A MOVIE SCORE!!!!! Like Mark Knopfler did on The Princess Bride...Lindsey would KICK at scoring a movie. I think he could win an OSCAR (hey, if Eminem can win one...eh? LOL) for it!!!

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew


"Welcome To The Room... Sara," and "When I See You Again"... while they'll never be everyone's cup of tea... provide a depth and emotionality that the album would otherwise be somewhat lacking.

"Mystified" is pretty, but terribly bland... "You And I, part 2" is so lightweight it defies gravity... and "Family Man" is hardly a defining moment of introspection.

Of the aforementioned b-sides, "You And I, part 1" would have the best shot at adding anything interesting to the album.
"Ricky" is exactly what you'd expect a non-LP b-side to sound like, and "Down Endless Street" seems like an incomplete thought, though it has great potential.
(For anyone who complains about the repetition of the word "baby," in "When I See You Again"... just how many times can we hear Lindsey repeat the title over and over in "Down Endless Street"?)



TITN is not my favorite, and I hate Stevie's songs except for "Seven Wonders," which technically she didn't really write. However, you're right about the others you mentioned, too. "Family Man" is infamous, and "Ricky" is a glorified demo that annoys me to death. I'd actually rather have "WTTR..S" instead of "Ricky," as much as I dislike the former.

As for Lindsey repeating himself.... anybody around here heard "I Must Go"?

"And this is why I must go...why I must go....why I must go....why I must go...I must go! And this is why I must go! Why I must go...why I must go....why I must go...I must go!"

For you guys who haven't heard that song, I'm not exaggerating. Those are really the lyrics!

But I love my man Lindsey and most of the time I think his lyrics are terrific. Just gotta agree with Johnny Stew that it happens to the best of 'em.

[CarneVaca]

Oh, no.... "I Must Go" is one of my favorites on "Go Insane." The repetition makes sense. The words are coming at you pan left, pan right, pan far left, pan far right. From a listening standpoint, the repetition is dead on. Remember, "Go Insane" wasn't about the lyrics anyway; it was a soundscape kind of concept where the words are actually less important than the rest of what is going on.

On "Family Man," I will repeat what I have said in the past: There is genius in simplicity.

"Ricky" and "Down Endless Street" are absolutely treacherous. They never should have left the studio in the form they did.

But worst of the worst in Tango are Stevie's songs. That and the stuff in "Rock a Little" are her lowest point. No amount of track rearranging can change that.

I feel like I'm having deja vous.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by ricohv
Even if Mystified was bland, it still fit nicely into the bigger scheme: the album as a whole. And yes, You & I, Pt. II is lightweight, but that's what much of TITN is: synth pop (w/ a little bit of an edgy dark side).I agree wholeheartedly, Ricoh... which is why I made it a point to note that 'Tango' is one of my favorite Mac albums.
I wasn't meaning to bash the songs, or Christine and Lindsey... I was just making a case for the value of Stevie's compositions, within the scheme of the album.

'Tango In The Night' is "a synth-pop album with a bit of an edgy dark-side"... and a lot of that edginess definitely comes from Stevie's contributions.

As usual, each member is off in their own world... Christine's writing love songs to her new husband... Lindsey's got a wicked case of the hornies... and Stevie's despondent and detoxing.
Unfortunately though, Stevie's two heavy songs follow EIGHT fairly lightweight (subject-wise) songs.

So yeah, if we're looking for songs that might have been a better fit overall, then I agree, tunes like "Smile At You" or "If You Were My Love" would have been more fitting alongside tracks like "Big Love" and "Isn't It Midnight"... but, again, I think the two the band chose to record are ideal.
Just poorly placed.

Originally posted by ricohv
I remember a post or thread awhile back where you reorganized song orders on Mac albums so I know you have done your homework! i.e. you're a geek and I'm right there with ya brother!Guilty, as charged. I'm most definitely a Mac-Nerd. :laugh:

[JamieSPC]

On "Family Man," I will repeat what I have said in the past: There is genius in simplicity.

I feel like I'm having deja vous.

And now I'M feeling a little left out. I'm just a "junior" ledgie, looking to the day when I become "addicted." When I do I'll write a song about it. "Welcome to the Ledge ... Jamie."

I figure "Family Man" is THE song people point to most when knocking Mssr. Buckingham. I feel dirty having done it.

The whole album, in spite of the flashes of brilliance Lindsey showed in the studio, seems disjointed. I once read a review that said something like it was as if the "members of the band were calling to each other across mist-shrouded turrets." Them's just fancy 10-dollar words for "nobody was ever in the room with anyone else at the same time."

From what I've heard so far, both Stevie and Lindsey's contributions to "Say You Will" are infinitely stronger than anything we've heard since "Tusk." When it's all said and done, I think we'll be comparing SYW to Tusk much more than TITN.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Oh, no.... "I Must Go" is one of my favorites on "Go Insane." The repetition makes sense.

On "Family Man," I will repeat what I have said in the past: There is genius in simplicity.I know I'm repeating myself here too, but what the hay...
As I've said, it all comes down to what we respond to as listeners.
Just as a case can always be made for some of Lindsey's least-liked songs, so can a case always be made for some of Stevie's least-liked tunes.
NONE of these songs is without value to SOMEONE... it's a complete and utter matter of personal preference.

While some critics didn't care for Stevie's 'Tango' tracks, other critics did.
'Rock A Little' was also reviewed very favorably by some, and very unfavorably by others.

And then there are Lindsey's albums, which are loved by many of us, and disliked by many... and they were reviewed favorably by the majority of critics, yet failed to raise any large interest amongst the buying public (and certainly not due to a lack of promotion).

It's hard to guage what will strike a chord in people, and what won't and why.

So I don't think any of us should ever say, "this song is crap, end of story."
There's a lot more to it than that.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I feel like I'm having deja vous.Yep, me too. ;)

[chiliD]

{David Crosby, Graham Nash, Stephen Stills in harmony}

"We have all been here before...we have all been here be-fore-ore!!"

:blob2:

[wondergirl9847]

YEP, it's been said AD NAUSEUM...it's all about OPINION!!!! :nod:

I LOVE Tango...tied with Rumours and Tusk for fave FM album, and although I don't care for WISYA, I love Seven Wonders and I like WTTRS although they are NOT her strongest songs, BY A LONG SHOT. She was going through bad stuff at that time and even though the album sounds disjointed to some...THAT is FM!!! LOL They all have various personalities that go into their individual songs, so the albums are always a melting pot of different sounds. THAT is ONE reason why I love FM so much, because I am very eclectic in the music I love, it fits me perfectly!! :thumbsup:

Actually, I was joking, Adam, regarding Mick and BTM. I DO NOT believe what he says is gospel...I've read his book. LOL It's just that in the eyes of the critics and the public, BTM just didn't have the Rumours-era magic. It's never heralded as a great FM album, but I've heard SOME of the songs on it....and it's NOT bad...I am going to buy it pretty soon. Save Me is one of my fave FM songs!!

[strandinthewind]

I feel as if I am guilty of generating another SN v. LB battle (of dragons? :D ) - hey at least no one has yelled :D.

My post was solely placed in response to the context of the original post. In other words, I was agreeing with JamieSPC that when it comes to marketing, placement, press, and, yes, even music or at least vocals, the band would be wise to listen a little bit harder to La Nicks, because love her or hate her, right or wrong, and no slight to the huge musical talent of any other member, she must know something because the vast majority of her solo stuff has had huge financial and critical success, while the others, esp. MF and JM, have not had her level of financial success. I was illustrating this point by noting that in my opinion they were wise to listen to her in this context on TITN because she was, again in my opinion, correct (but that is another topic!!) :cool:

By the Johnny Stew, you had me rolling with laughter with your "Baby" retort; her repetition of that word in that song drives me up the stairs and down the hall!!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: As I said before, I really like the other parts of that song and feel it just was not adequately produced.

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
"Welcome To The Room... Sara," and "When I See You Again"... while they'll never be everyone's cup of tea... provide a depth and emotionality that the album would otherwise be somewhat lacking. My pal Tommer from this board really loves "Welcome to the Room," but I just can't quite get into the groove there. Notes -- both human & instrument -- sound a little flat here & there throughout; you want to yell, "Pick up the pace!"

As for the "When I See You Again" song, I think it's really peerless. Stevie's vocal is so wistful & nostalgic, & the band's instrumentation is the perfect backdrop. I really disagree with the guy who said the production was bad on it.

I don't think "Say You Will" is "Buckingham Nicks II," but I do think "When I See You Again" IS.

[Wild Heart]

TITN is probably my least favorite Rumours lineup album. I guess I'm alone in my opinion on this album but Stevie's songs, although not outstanding, are the only ones I really like on it with the exception of the title track and "Big Love". I've always loved WTTRS and "Seven Wonders". WISYA is not the best Stevie has ever done but it's certainly not the worse (take another listen to Street Angel). I've always thought of WISYA as a sweet, sentimental song. It has a very lonely, regretful but sweet sound to it if that makes any sense, which it probably doesn't! I wouldn't want to listen to it over and over but I like it alot.

I love Christine and Lindsey both. They are both wonderful but I just do not care for their songs on this album. The vocals and lyrics for "Family Man" are like nails on a chalkboard for me. "Mystified" and "Everywhere" are dripping with so much pop sappy-ness they make me gag. I don't mean to offend Christine and Lindsay fans, I think all three writers could have done better.

It's all in the ear of the listener (or something like that)! :lol:

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by David
I guess many of us are pigeonholed to varying degrees. I'm generally thought of as a somewhat cranky Stevie hater. But I'd push my own mother out of the way if you were showing me a video of a hot Wild Heart show.

P.S. I definitely don't like all the members of Fleetwood Mac equally. Dave Mason, for example, was a hole in the band's tableau in the mid 1990s. For my money, he brought nothing to the table besides self-consciousness & an unwillingness to commit. He was Pickup Band Central. He oozed "gun for hire" (except when the Mac played "We Just Disagree").

Yeah, I can see why you think DM was just a "gun for hire" etc. and underneath it all, you probably are right about this, I guess this is just my "living in a fantasy" (as I'm sure we all do it to some extent) in that I'd like to think that "if the "Time" lineup had been given more of a chance then they were this may have worked out for the other members etc."

Dave does seem like too strong a personality for FM etc. but I keep thinking about many bios I have read on him how it refers to his FM tenure as the most "high profile" thing he had done in "the last 20 years (or so)".

So, with this being the case, if "Time" had "succeeded" (or if the "Time" band did another album, etc.) and if being in FM made DM "better off" than he was solo (as those bios had insinuated) then maybe he would have stayed, and contributed in a more team styled behavior (coupled with the fact that his latest "wish" seems to be for a Traffic reunion so it must be acceptable to him at SOME points when it suits him to be a "team player" in a "band" if nothing else), but I guess we'll never know on any of this as this is just one in a long line of Mac "what if's..." and that's just the way I look at it and your view makes perfect sense as well I think. Many of us have different views of course and it's great we have the chance to bounce them off each other like this. :)

John

[The Tower]

Stevie absolutely has complete command of Say You Will.

Lindsey's songs are abysmal, and the only thing saving this album is the power of Stevie's songwriting.


Granted, Lindsey produced her songwriting.... However, any seasonsed musician will tell you that "you can't polish a turd". Lindsey has several "turds" on this album.

The only Stevie song that sucks is "Silver Girl"- (jeez, get over your "I must write a song for my famous friend Sheryl Crow" routine).

You can't make ANY album without good songs. Stevie provided them in abundance....... Too bad Linsey didn't ("Peacekeeper" & "Miranda" are the only two surviving.....)