Could SAY YOU WILL be IT????

[JamieSPC]

Listening to the brief snippet of "Say You Will" on FOX last night and then listening over and over and over again (;) ) I started thinking, "Could this be the song Mac/Stevie fans have been waiting for for the last decade? We love "Thrown Down" and the stuff on "TISL" and "Street Angel" because we love Stevie, but honestly, it's not very commercial or mainstream, even "Everyday."

I'd love to see the band make a huge splash on radio with it. Wishful thinking?

That chorus is about as catchy as anything Stevie has written since "Stand Back." And it has me more excited about the album than anything I've heard so far, including "Peacekeeper" (though in my mind I can hear Stevie singing on that and it's an nice thought!).

~Jamie

[CarneVaca]

This will probably be the first single, considering the exposure. How sad that they have to release the song this way. I don't get it. If they're going to whore the songs to commercials, previews for a stupid TV show no less, then why not release one-minute snippets online instead? Oh, wait, it probably has something to do with the fact that Fox would have to pay the band and the label to use the song. Hmmm.... here comes that pesky money issue again.

As for the what I've heard of the song itself, the guitar is unquestionably Lindsey. There's no mistaking that sound, so it would make sense to release this as a single, if there is such a thing. I don't know what the excitement about the refrain we hear is about; it's just another Stevie Nicks retread: "Say you will give me one more chance." Where did I hear that? "Reconsider Me." The melody sounds like a slightly sped-up version of "Twisted." It's probably the same three chords. Waddy was right.

Oh well, I guess I just shouldn't expect brilliance from Stevie. Looks like I'll have to do what I did with Tusk: Take Lindsey's songs and make a separate album with them so I can listen without the distraction of non-Lindsey songs.

[Bella Figura]

lol, just to balance out the world karmically (sp), I'm going to have to make a Stevie only cd then!!! ;)

[BlueGrass]

Yes, I will bet this is the first single. It would be very dumb for this not to be since they have broadcasted it on a big network like Fox.

The song is conservative Mac song, but I like Stevie & Lindsey's catchy lyrics, along with the guitar solo.

Also, they did cover the making of this song for most of the DOC, so I think that is another reason why "Say You Will" is the first single from the album.

:nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't know what the excitement about the refrain we hear is about; it's just another Stevie Nicks retread... The melody sounds like a slightly sped-up version of "Twisted." It's probably the same three chords. Waddy was right.

Oh well, I guess I just shouldn't expect brilliance from Stevie.Ahh, but Waddy also said that writing engaging songs, that so many people can relate to and involve themselves in... while using those three chords... IS Stevie's brilliance.
I guess that part of his comment didn't suit your argument. ;)

As far as "retreads" go, chiliD quite accurately pointed out how closely several of Lindsey's 'Gift Of Screws' songs resemble many of his earlier songs.

All artists do that... it's the nature of the beast. A young artist's output might seem fresh and exciting in the beginning, but if they're still writing music 30 years later, you can bet that some of it is going to sound like things they've done in the past.
It's their personal style, and it's what makes them unique.

Or, one could go the David Bowie route, and do a complete 180 on your sound... thereby effectively alienating a large portion of your audience.

Either way, it all comes down to what appeals to us as individuals.


By the way... what's so wrong with the band wanting to make a little bit of money?
To me, there's nothing wrong with Fleetwood Mac letting Fox use a snippet of their music to help promote a TV series... which, essentially, is the same as a song being used on the soundtrack of a movie.

By the way, the band might not even make a penny off of this commercial, as it's most likely one of those "we'll scratch your back, if you scratch ours" kind of deals, like Elton John recently did to promote his "best of" compilation.
He offered CBS the chance to use some of his songs in the ads for some of their series. Giving the network some added exposure for their shows, and giving Elton's CD some free promotion... and no money exchanged hands.

TV spots reach a far broader audience than releasing teasers on an artist's official website ever could (though I wish they'd do that too!).

The route they've gone, is certainly better than bastardizing a song to hawk a car, a cola, or some household product.
(*ahem* Bob Seger *ahem* The Rolling Stones *ahem*)

But even if Fleetwood Mac *did* make some money by the use of "Say You Will"... where's the harm in that?
All cynicism aside, money *is* essential in our society, unless one wants to live in a shack in the woods somewhere (if you can even manage that luxury).

The band has to earn a living, so who are we to act snobbish, and criticize the way they do it?



Johnny Stew

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Ahh, but Waddy also said that writing engaging songs, that so many people can relate to and involve themselves in... while using those three chords... IS Stevie's brilliance.
I guess that part of his comment didn't suit your argument. ;)

What Waddy really thinks only he knows. Surely you wouldn't expect him to say, "Stevie uses the same chords all the time, and frankly, I'm sick of it," would you? I mean, that would be biting the hand that feeds you.

As far as "retreads" go, chiliD quite accurately pointed out how closely several of Lindsey's 'Gift Of Screws' songs resemble many of his earlier songs.

Well, Chili is often right. Sometimes he's not, but I'll let him speak for himself, which is probably a good policy for all of us. The Gift of Screws songs have some similarities, in some cases, to earlier Lindsey songs. But there is an obvious evolution. For instance, the Out of the Cradle songs hardly had any bridges, but I think just about every Gift of Screws song he wrote has a bridge. Another example: Though you could argue that Red Rover is similar to the acoustic Big Love or whatever, the whole approach to the song is considerably different from anything he'd done before.

You can justify Stevie's lack of inspiration however you want and enumerate examples ad nauseum to prove your point, but that won't change the fact that she simply cannot write the way she once did. I think other objective-minded folks have made similar comments on these boards. Facts are facts. You cannot compare Thrown Down to Gypsy or Landslide. Thrown Down, or what I've heard of Say You Will, don't come close. Lindsey has made a heroic effort to give these songs some life, based on what I've heard so far.

By the way... what's so wrong with the band wanting to make a little bit of money?
To me, there's nothing wrong with Fleetwood Mac letting Fox use a snippet of their music to help promote a TV series... which, essentially, is the same as a song being used on the soundtrack of a movie.

Well, Johnny, if to you there's nothing wrong with it, that's fine with me. I simply don't like the idea of something that is supposedly art being cheapened in such a callous way. My opinion. Period. Disagree all you want.

the way, the band might not even make a penny off of this commercial, as it's most likely one of those "we'll scratch your back, if you scratch ours" kind of deals, like Elton John recently did to promote his "best of" compilation.

You don't know that. I don't think Mick Fleetwood is into giving stuff away for free. Look at what he's charging for membership in his club and the highway-robbery price is charging for pre-orders of the album.

band has to earn a living, so who are we to act snobbish, and criticize the way they do it?

Well, who are you to decide what I should criticize?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I dont think debuting a clip in a commercial is a bad idea at all...who cares? Nothing wrong with promotion...put it this way, they KNOW the die hard fans will buy the cd, so they need to target other audiences who might not know they have a new release.....I havent heard enough of the song to determine how much I like it yet, but Im betting it will be the 1st single also

Chris

[BlueGrass]

Originally posted by ShangriLaTroubl
I dont think debuting a clip in a commercial is a bad idea at all...who cares? Nothing wrong with promotion...put it this way, they KNOW the die hard fans will buy the cd, so they need to target other audiences who might not know they have a new release.....I havent heard enough of the song to determine how much I like it yet, but Im betting it will be the 1st single also

Chris

I concur 100%.

[Johnny Stew]

I've said it a million times, and I'll probably end up saying it a million more... I'd never take it upon myself to tell someone how to act, how to feel, or what to say... it would be a boring world indeed, if everyone held the same opinions I do.
It just amazes me sometimes what is accepted and what isn't accepted, and how the delineation between the two so often seems to come down to whether it's in regards to Ms. Nicks, or Mr. Buckingham.

What you've called an "evolution" is considered a "retread" by others... and that's exactly the point I was trying to make: It all comes down to personal preference.

Certainly Stevie's music has evolved over the years... it just happens to have evolved into something that you have no interest in, and that's fine.
It's just a pity that you don't seem willing to allow someone else to like her current music, without continually implying that they're not being objective. Or... worse... that they're a fluff-for-brains, "chiffon-head."


As for the other points....
I find it very admirable that you have such an idealistic view of music as art.
I honestly feel the same way (hence my disdain for the use of songs to sell products).
However, I also concede that an artist *does* need to make money.
Who the heck wants to be a "starving artist"?
And don't we all wish we could make some money for doing the thing that we love most?
I know I do.

Royalties and licensing fees are a musician's retirement plan, and all I was trying to say, is that I think it's a bit hypocritical for ANY of us (not just you) to criticize them for wanting to make some money while they're able to.

But... again... you're certainly entitled to do so if you wish, just as I'm entitled to post an opposing viewpoint if I wish. :)



Johnny Stew

[jwd]

Could this be the song Mac/Stevie fans have been waiting for for the last decade?

Could Be!!

Well it certainly wasn't "Thrown Down". In comparison to the other demo/outtakes from TISL it was my least favorite. I'm really hoping that song was left somewhere on the "cutting room floor". It's already gotten old with ME. :shrug:

"Say You Will"...even that tiny little snippet of the song made my ears perk up....can't wait to hear the rest of it. THIS song definitely piqued my interest in the album a lot more. I think the chorus on the song is catchy and I love IT. Hearing Stevie's and Lindsey's voices together in that way is just the icing on the cake for me.

YUMMY...give me more! :blob2: :)


Joe

[WelshWitchPMD]

Originally posted by jwd
Could Be!!............


"Say You Will"...even that tiny little snippet of the song made my ears perk up....can't wait to hear the rest of it. THIS song definitely piqued my interest in the album a lot more. I think the chorus on the song is catchy and I love IT. Hearing Stevie's and Lindsey's voices together in that way is just the icing on the cake for me.


Joe

Yes, I felt the same way about it. It also went very well with the commercial. I don't like "Peacekeeper" that much and "Thrown Down" is a little boring.

[jmn3]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew

The route they've gone, is certainly better than bastardizing a song to hawk a car, a cola, or some household product.
(*ahem* Bob Seger *ahem* The Rolling Stones *ahem*)


Ugh...I love the Stones, but I honestly can't stand to hear "Start Me Up" anymore. It's only on what seems like every two commercials, all day, every day!

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
What you've called an "evolution" is considered a "retread" by others... and that's exactly the point I was trying to make: It all comes down to personal preference.

Go examine the music more closely if you think Lindsey's evolution is a retreading. He's not using the same tired old chords again and again, and the same tired old words again and again (with the exception of the bridge in Bleed to Love Her, but that was a case in which it made artistic sense). That's a huge difference.

It's just a pity that you don't seem willing to allow someone else to like her current music, without continually implying that they're not being objective. Or... worse... that they're a fluff-for-brains, "chiffon-head."

I had to laugh out loud at this passage. I don't "allow" people to like her music? You've assigned me way too much imaginary power, dude. As for the second part of that, I have yet to use the terms "fluff-for-brains" or "chiffon-head." So don't put words in my mouth, or my keyboard as it were.

However, I also concede that an artist *does* need to make money.
Who the heck wants to be a "starving artist"?

I'm laughing again. You're beginning to sound like George Bush, and Clinton before him. Stick with reality, Johnny. Stevie and Lindsey are far from "starving artists." If you want to have an honest discussion, you shouldn't even make such an outrageous statement, with all due respect.

"And don't we all wish we could make some money for doing the thing that we love most? I know I do."

As a matter of fact, I am in that fortunate position. My point was against whoring yourself.

Royalties and licensing fees are a musician's retirement plan, and all I was trying to say, is that I think it's a bit hypocritical for ANY of us (not just you) to criticize them for wanting to make some money while they're able to.

So you don't think Lindsey and Stevie have made enough money to retire comfortably? Again, let's stick with reality.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't "allow" people to like her music? You've assigned me way too much imaginary power, dude.So very often during these types of threads, when people are discussing something that you don't happen to care for, you're quite quick to suggest that they're simply not being objective. The implication being that otherwise they'd agree with you.

That was all I meant when I said you don't "allow" people to like Stevie's new music.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't express the opinion that you don't like something... I just find the statements of a lack of objectivity, to be belittling to many of the people on these boards. And that's not even based solely on my viewpoint, as several people have expressed this concern to me. So, as a moderator, I'm just trying to make sure that *everyone* feels their opinion is respected, whether I share the opinion or not.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Stick with reality, Johnny. Stevie and Lindsey are far from "starving artists."I don't recall saying that they were. I merely asked why anyone would *want* to be a "starving artist."

Lindsey & Stevie (and the rest of the band) want to make money, just like the rest of us do, and for us to expect them to keep art and commerce seperate, is a rather naive way of thinking.

You mentioned that you're fortunate enough to make money doing something you love, and that's a terrific thing to be able to say.
But, still, you're getting paid for your services, so I imagine you've sometimes been given assignments, that you'd really rather not have to do... but if you didn't, you wouldn't keep your job, and wouldn't continue earning money for your present and your future.
We have to make concessions if we wish to earn a living... even if we're doing something we love.

And hopefully you have a nice little retirement package waiting for you.
But no matter how much money Lindsey, Stevie, et al., have at this particular moment in time... if they were to stop recording or touring after this album, or even the next, that money would most likely not last another 20 or 30 years.
At least not if they wish to send their children to college, or to continue taking care of their extended families, or even to just live in the manor that they desire.
So they have to find some way to keep that money coming in (although $80 fanclub membership dues is DEFINITELY going too far).
As it is, they're really just trying to make sure their album sells well, and that they can fill those arenas... and as far as the music industry goes, that's the least of all evils.

I don't think it's fair for any of us to accuse Fleetwood Mac of being slaves to the "almighty dollar," when... in essence... we *all* are.
They have to earn a living, just like we do... and they have to provide for their futures, and the future of their families, just like we do.

Anyway, this thread is now veering *totally* off course, so I'll end there.



Johnny Stew

[DownOnRodeo]

Could SAY YOU WILL be IT????



YES!


:D :wavey:

[Sorcerer386]

You can justify Stevie's lack of inspiration however you want and enumerate examples ad nauseum to prove your point, but that won't change the fact that she simply cannot write the way she once did. I think other objective-minded folks have made similar comments on these boards.

Objective minded? I'm sorry CarneVaca, but you are OBVIOUSLY so subjective to Lindsey's music just as a lot of us are to Stevie's music. And don't sneer back with "Did I say I was being objective?" because that's what you meant. Anything against Stevie is simply an objective standpoint for you, yet one foul word against Lindsey and it's the pits for any Stevie fan. YOU THINK Stevie can't write the way she used to, I THINK you are wrong. There is clearly no objectivity around the case at all, and many people argue if there even is such a thing as total objectivity. Aren't you a journalist of some kind? You should know that. So Stevie writes with the same three chords, WELL, did you like the OTHER songs she wrote with those same three chords?

As for not allowing people to like her music, any decent comment about a Stevie song is 9 times out of 10 rebuffed by a smug comment -- either she can't write anymore or she's just some stupid blonde girl who can't do anything brilliant. And no, I'm not putting words in your mouth (except maybe about the "stupid blonde girl" part), these are things you've said right here in this thread. I'd love to be able to remember the many other remarks you've made about Stevie.

As for everything else going on around here, you people need to take a careful look at yourselves. If you guys are Fleetwood Mac's biggest and best fans, then I don't know why I would EVER want to pursue a singing career. All that's around this place is comments about how Fleetwood Mac are money grubbing assholes, or how they don't give a damn about their fans, or that they are so inefficient releasing new albums. I think I've skipped probably 5 threads today just because I knew they'd be talking about what a bunch of ignoramouses Fleetwood Mac is. It's not even pleasant to come here anymore. Someone posted in chit chat about there being too much negativity around here, and I thought it was a ridiculous post. Now I'm beginning to see its merit.

Lastly, and more light heartedly, CarneVaca, have you ever thought of being a rhetor of some kind. You'd be very good at it I think.

[Christopher]

Johnny, Its admirable that you try and reason with someone who appears to be so absolutely bitter that Lindsey did not release a solo disc and cannot tolerate Stevie of late OR her own unique brilliance.

Its a shame it always comes down to Lindsey VS. Stevie. They are a group after all.....and seem to be enjoying making music together for the first time since probably the WHITE ALBUM!! Albeit I sure no feelings were spared in the studio either, there is alot riding on this recording, and EVERYONE in the band surely pushed to get the best performances and compositions for this release!

While Lindsey is certainly responsible for his share of 3-4 chord wonders AND re-treading song themes also. His songs have made a major transformation since OOTC-I have a newfound respect for his "songwriting" since that release.....before I really just admired his unique guitar sense, production expertise and workman-ship" He IS brilliant!!-but arguably Stevie and Lindsey together takes everything to the next level- they are the perfect yin-yang and balance the others indulgences, quirks, energy or whatever you want to label it.

I like this new song,............ALOT! ....Its sort of deceptive in its organic sound and seemingly simple structure but is really a slice of pop perfection, ...this sounds like a great song...I hope the rest of it lives up to this little snippet......of the 3 most of us have heard so far, this one makes the most sense for the lead single.

this debate is just another endless example of "you can't and WONT please everyone"...

But I still love reading everyones opinions even if they differ with mine...that is what brings me back to this board again and again-like a bad relationship LOL!

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm not saying that you shouldn't express the opinion that you don't like something... I just find the statements of a lack of objectivity, to be belittling to many of the people on these boards. And that's not even based solely on my viewpoint, as several people have expressed this concern to me. So, as a moderator, I'm just trying to make sure that *everyone* feels their opinion is respected, whether I share the opinion or not.

I made a comment about objectivity. Since when is that such a crime? You chose to reply to a comment I made and in the process made some statements that I felt warranted a reaction. If you don't want my reaction, I would suggest you therefore not engage in discussions with me. Isn't that what you and other moderators have advised me to do? Secondly, when you accuse me of belittling anybody, I would advise you to go back and reread my posts and yours. An objective person would agree that I haven't even come close to saying anything insulting to you or anybody else on this board. The highest grievance you seem to have is my use of the term "objective." Yet, you have used rhetorical devices to indirectly call me "naive," "hypocritical," "snobish" and accused me of "belittling." You're not addressing a fool; I know when I'm being insulted. And if the roles were reversed, I would be getting a strike. Your continuous resorting to back-door ways to insult me should be beneath the behavior of a moderator on these boards. You also seem to be implying that people have complained to you about me, but I can't really tell from what you wrote because it's a little unclear. If that's the case, Johnny, why not tell me privately what these concerns are? Do you as a moderator think it's appropriate to air out your dirty laundry against me in this way? Do you think it's proper to post publicly on these boards comments that people told you in private? Isn' that against Ledge rules? It smacks of a personal grudge, which I believe is against Ledge rules, and you owe me an apology.

I don't recall saying that they were. I merely asked why anyone would *want* to be a "starving artist.

Reread your post. Within the contest of what you said, the "starving artist" comment was clearly still within the contest of Lindsey and Stevie. If that is not what you meant, you didn't express that clearly.

But, still, you're getting paid for your services, so I imagine you've sometimes been given assignments, that you'd really rather not have to do... but if you didn't, you wouldn't keep your job, and wouldn't continue earning money for your present and your future.

You don't know enough about me to make such assumptions. I'm not a compromising kind of person, if it isn't obvious yet.

Lindsey, Stevie, et al., have at this particular moment in time... if they were to stop recording or touring after this album, or even the next, that money would most likely not last another 20 or 30 years.

How do you know that? I just read somewhere Lindsey was building some big new house. His old one didn't look too shabby. I think you make too many assumptions.

Johnny, if you want to make personal attacks, why don't you just send me a personal message? I'd rather not get dragged into a public fight with you, and you seem bent on baiting me. Go back and reread my posts, starting with my original take on this "Say You Will" song. Bella Figura chose to reply in a lighthearted way. She knows how I feel about Stevie and Lindsey, and though she disagrees, she didn't feel the need to call me "naive," "snobbish" or hypocritical.

Oh, and last week you implied on another thread that I was a "mysoginist." Can you imagine if I had so much as implied something that ugly about anyone else on this board?

Leave the characterizations for the people you know, dude. Not me.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Sorcerer386
Objective minded? I'm sorry CarneVaca, but you are OBVIOUSLY so subjective to Lindsey's music just as a lot of us are to Stevie's music.

Not to be a wise ass, but I never expected the term "objective" to cause such controversy on this board. Besides, my positions on Lindsey vs. Stevie are clear. My reference to "objective-minded" had to do with a concurrent thread on this song in which some folks seem to share my sentiments on this song.

yet one foul word against Lindsey and it's the pits for any Stevie fan.

I seem to recall a couple of weeks ago a playful remark by Bella Figura after I slammed Lindsey on one of these boards. Therefore your premise is a little off. I myself have criticized Lindsey many times. No one seems to mind. When I say a word or two against the goddess Stevie, all hell breaks loose. Now let's examine the objectivity of that.

So Stevie writes with the same three chords, WELL, did you like the OTHER songs she wrote with those same three chords?

I'll answer this way: Bob Dylan and John Prine used the same three chords over and over, and sometimes the same progressions. But the songs were interesting. Do you know why? Because they had something new and interesting to say in each one of them. Not the case with Stevie. Put up her body of work against Dylan's or Prine's. Look at it objectively and tell me that she broke as much new ground lyrically with each song as those guys did.

Lastly, and more light heartedly, CarneVaca, have you ever thought of being a rhetor of some kind. You'd be very good at it I think.

Do you mean like being some kind of speaker dude? Not my thing. I prefer to write.

Hey, keep in mind, I'm a Stevie fan. I just don't like everything she does.

[Sugar]

Look, anyone who reads these boards knows how Carne feels about Stevie, more specifically, the Stevie of now. And ulitmately, Carne is just one guy! It amazes me time and time again that so many people get so riled because this one guy says less than shimmering things about Stevie. Who cares what this one guy thinks? And anything Carne has ever said pales in comparison to what I've heard most people (non-fans) I know say about her! A little perspective people! :laugh:

I for one have no problem with anything Carne has said (how often do you hear that about anyone?) :laugh: More importantly, Stevie's career is just fine, and I don't think Carne's opinion will really have any effect on it, nor do I think she would give a white winged dove's ass about what he thinks. So what are we doing, people?

I have gotten into light tangles with Carne, and admit that he can be a little rough (poor Mrs. Carne!) since he obviously has a very good command of the English language, a better-than-average musical sense as well as a strong opinion. But never was he disrespectful, only forceful, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Honorable mention to Bella who, yet again, has made her point both effectively and gracefully. :nod:

And...who watchers the Watchers, indeed...;)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny, if you want to make personal attacks, why don't you just send me a personal message?The intention of my posts within this thread, and my posts within ANY thread, have never been to personally attack you, or anyone.

I'd refrained from contacting you about complaints I've received, because I was hoping it could be sorted out (and you may be surprised to know how many times I've defended your right to express your opinions, in the manner you choose).
But as this thread continued, I was presented an opportunity to bring the situation to your attention, so I was hoping that if I brought it up in this manner, it would help to keep you from feeling persecuted for your opinions.
In hindsight, it had just the opposite effect, and I should have realized that sooner. It was just my initial gut-reaction that a private email would seem more harsh.

But, if it was going to be discussed, it should have been done privately... and I apologize for my poor judgement. :(

I can honestly say that I have absolutely no personal vendetta against you. We may strongly disagree on many things, but I'm the type of person who enjoys hearing all sides of everything. And if someone proves me wrong, I'm the first one to admit it.
My father and I used to debate various topics quite heatedly when I was growing up... many of those debates ending with one of us storming out of the room in disgust or anger... but I still loved (and do love) my Dad, whether we saw eye to eye or not.
I don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

As for the "mysoginist" comment, I really was being jestful and absurd... as I was hoping to move our banter into more lighthearted territory.
Based on your response at the time, I thought you had taken it in the manner I had intended.

Again, I apologize for the manner in which I brought the complaints your attention. I had hoped it would give an example of how certains statements were being perceived, but it was still poor judgement, and I'm genuinely sorry.



Johnny Stew

[Wldhrt315]

Well it seems people are upset now. Johnny Stew apologized to Mr. CarneVaca which seems like a plea to stop the arguing. I hope it works. Maybe Carne could apologize to his fellow "friends" (Ledgies) - not for having his thoughts and feelings on any topic in this thread or past threads but for the manner in which in you express such thoughts on the board. It seems like you have a lack of respect for people who feel differently than you. If you don't care what anyone else thinks, thats one thing but don't try to understand what anyone is thinking, it starts to be convoluted and messy. I am sure you like all the attention your messages are getting but please watch the way you word things. Internet communication is the toughest form of communicating, you don't see body language, you can't sense a tone in ones voice so if people take what you type completely different then the way you meant then I think you should watch how you word your comments for future discussions. This goes for everyone, myself included.
It is nice to be opinionated and I like reading some of your posts because you seem very knowledgeable but I would appreciate you if you acknowledge things in a non-confrontational way. Thank you!

[seteca]

Just my two cents on the original question at hand, I do think this will be the first single. Mick and FM's site pointing us in its direction, plus the fact that it was used on a 1 min national TV ad means that this is, most likely, gonna be the case. As for is it THE song fans have been waiting for.....let's wait and see.;)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
But, if it was going to be discussed, it should have been done privately... and I apologize for my poor judgement. :(

Apology accepted. In the future, if people complain about me and you want to bring it to my attention, please do so privately. I will be happy to discuss any concerns you have. When I have a problem with a person, I pull him/her aside and confront the situation. I've made great friends that way... Oh, and I lost a couple, but f*ck em! :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wldhrt315
Maybe Carne could apologize to his fellow "friends" (Ledgies) - not for having his thoughts and feelings on any topic in this thread or past threads but for the manner in which in you express such thoughts on the board. It seems like you have a lack of respect for people who feel differently than you.

Jeeeeesus! Like Sugar said, let's have some perspective. I was attacked for using the term "objective-minded." A couple of folks jumped on me for it. Bob Marley said, "If the hat fits, let them wear it." Because I made a point by using the term "objective-minded" I'm being disrespectful!? Wow! Go read the original sentence in question again. I simply don't see where the disrespect is.

you don't care what anyone else thinks, thats one thing but don't try to understand what anyone is thinking, it starts to be convoluted and messy.

I'm not sure what you are saying with "IT starts to be convoluted and messy." By IT, I don't know what you mean. If you mean that I've been convoluted in stating opinions, I will gladly attempt to restate them more clearly.

am sure you like all the attention your messages are getting but please watch the way you word things.

Far as I can tell, I've expressed myself pretty clearly on this thread and watched my words. The issue in question seems to be that you object to my using the term "objective," if I understand you correctly. As I mentioned before, I don't believe that is an insult. You're asking me not to be confrontational. I'm just not sure how that applies here. Yes I've used confrontational words, but if I say I don't expect brilliance from Stevie, am I insulting other Ledge members? I don't see it, but perhaps you can enlighten me.

[chiliD]

It just seems to be the "way things are and always will be" when it comes to fans choosing sides in the "Lindsey vs Stevie" (and vice versa) debate. It's not just a "Fleetwood Mac" thing, either. The heated polarization of fans of different members of bands is commonplace. These "L vs S" things are just SO laughable compared to Beatle websites and the "John vs Paul" stuff...you'd think that one was Arafat and one Sharon. It's THAT heated!! Even makes the trials & tribulations of the Davies brothers & Gallagher brothers seem comical.

And in the words of that great Lennon/McCartney (or is it McCartney/Lennon?) tune....."Let It Be".

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiliD
(or is it McCartney/Lennon?)

Now you've done it!!

[blinker12]

Because I made a point by using the term "objective-minded" I'm being disrespectful!?
Frankly, yes. What you originally said was "...that won't change the fact that [Stevie] simply cannot write the way she once did. I think other objective-minded folks have made similar comments on these boards."
First of all, your assertion that Stevie cannot write the way she once did is not, in fact, a "fact." It's your opinion. That you call your opinion a fact is, in itself, insulting to people who don't happen to share your opinion.
You go on to say that "objective-minded folks" (a group in which you presumably include yourself) would agree with you. The obvious implication is that only subjective-minded folks _ i.e. Stevie's blindly adoring fans _ would disagree. And yes, that is disrespectful to people who like Stevie's recent music for the music itself, and not because they are mindless devotees.
What offends people is not that you are expressing your opinion, CarneVaca. It's the way you choose to express it. I hope I've made clear exactly why _ at least in this particular case _ your approach was disrespectful.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by blinker12
The obvious implication is that only subjective-minded folks _ i.e. Stevie's blindly adoring fans _ would disagree. And yes, that is disrespectful to people who like Stevie's recent music for the music itself, and not because they are mindless devotees.


I think it’s possible to make an academic distinction between good and bad writing. That is an objective endeavor, so long as you do it with academic integrity. Liking a song, regardless of the lyrics, melody or arrangement, is subjective. There are bad songs I like. They are bad from a lyrical standpoint, or musically. Knowing they’re bad doesn’t make me not want to listen to them. There is good music I cannot stand to hear (P.J. Harvey comes to mind). Then there are bad songs that I simply don’t want to waste my time with.
Does Stevie write like she once did? Absolutely not. For instance:

Wait a minute baby/Stay with me awhile/Said you'd give me light/But you never told me about the fire/Drowning in the sea of love/Where everyone would love to drown
And now it's gone/It doesn't matter anymore/When you build your house/Call me home [Sara]

That’s an example of inspired writing. Here are some examples of uninspired writing:

You, beloved/Were to me everything/That love stood for/To love one another for awhile/Was enough/It was all that I lived for/How can I go on without you/Can I go on without you/I tell myself this time/I'm going to have to move on [Bombay Sapphires]

It’s all rather pedestrian. Why use the term “beloved?” It’s like trying to grasp for poetic value when the simpler words (i.e., “my dear”) would have done the trick and resonated more. The rest of the passage is cliche and uninspired -- it contains not one shred of an original thought. That’s bad writing.

I've been with you before/I'll be with you again/I'll come back for more, yea/The story has a strange ending [Candlebright]

This is like explaining the punchline to a joke. Don’t tell me it’s a strange ending. Describe the ending and let me decide if it was strange. If it was, and I reach that conclusion, you’ve done the job effectively as a writer.

Ooh, downstairs where the/Big old house is mine/Ooh, upstairs where the/Stars laugh and shine/Oh, Oh well I thought that/You were mine/Well I thought that You were mine [Welcome to the Room... Sara]

I can’t even go into this one without breaking in convulsions. I mean, to begin with, there is an atrocious misuse of grammar and style on the title.

I hope that helps. As you can see, I was making an academic distinction between what I consider to be good and bad writing. You of course are perfectly entitled to disagree with my assessment. I’ve said it on previous discussions: I will not argue tastes. That is a losing proposition. But I will continue to argue about the quality of the music itself and the writing.

Now, you think my approach was disrespectful. I disagree, and that is a subjective assessment.

[Bella Figura]

thanks Sugar!!! :wavey:

not to get into this fray,( how many freakin' times have I said that??? :lol: ) but there are many examples of aggressive speech in the Media (Sean Hannity, that other Irish guy what's his name, and even liberal Phil D. who actually pioneered this type of speech) and more and more people with strong opinions are using this style to communicate their positions.

This type of speech really ends up communicating to (and entertaining) an audience rather than directly debating an adversary. This use is intended by the media who need advertising $$$, whether this intention follows thru in indiviual debates is less clear. But aggressive speech is targeting you the audience not the other debater, and can not be truly defined as discouse and/or debate.

I personally find aggressive speech tends to dissolve intelligent discourse into a manic verbal tennis match and winds up being a perverse form of entertainment (like a good car crash). So YOU the audience must use your own intelligence, wit and experience and try not get sucked into the mania. If you are able to take with humor the absurdity created by aggresive speech, it then dissolves into entertainment...and must be viewed as such.

as far as 'Say You Will", I like it and that's all that really matters in my foxhole... :laugh:

[tommer]

CarneVaca, you sound exactly like my writing teacher (which is fairly okay...) but please note that candlebright was written in 1970, so claiming her writing skills deteriorated over the years using this text is somewhat problematic.
could you please use your skillful lyrics dissection methods to help me with the likes of Family Man or Big Love? thanks.
but seriously, you can bash as much as you like, but the proven fact is that stevie's lyrics were, and still are, effective. writing song lyrics and poetry are not the same thing, and you should know that.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

CarneVaca, I'm sure you don't care but you at least had me on your side until your very last post in which you disected the lyrics. I'll be the first to admit that I am not a fan of everything that Stevie does or every one of her songs, and I love hearing other opinions about things... But you can't sit there and pull apart lyrics like that and tell us why they are objectively, or "academically" good or bad. Differently lyrics speak in different ways to different people. Even though I very much dislike Welcome to the Room Sara, you can't claim that there is nothing good in the lyrics just because nothing jumps out at you. Someone else might find their own inspiration in them, where you and I do not. And besides, there is more to a song that the lyrics, and you don't have to judge a song academically. In fact, I don't really see how that is productive at all. Not everything has to be a poetic masterpiece to be considered a good song.

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tommer
but please note that candlebright was written in 1970, so claiming her writing skills deteriorated over the years using this text is somewhat problematic.

Good point, Tommer. I did not know that. If I had, I would have revised my comments to say that if it was at the bottom of the drawer that long, it should have stayed there.

could you please use your skillful lyrics dissection methods to help me with the likes of Family Man or Big Love? thanks.

I could, sure. ;)

song lyrics and poetry are not the same thing, and you should know that.

Indeed. And you've just helped my case. Notice I said she was reaching, rather unsuccessfully, for some poetic value with the term "beloved." In poetry, that might work. In a song, it falls flat and seems unnatural. A song to be true to the emotion should reflect the way you would naturally speak. I don't know too many people who call their significant others "beloved." And that's my point.

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr
CarneVaca, I'm sure you don't care but you at least had me on your side until your very last post in which you disected the lyrics.

I'm glad I was able to keep you on my side that long. ;)

In fact, I don't really see how that is productive at all. Not everything has to be a poetic masterpiece to be considered a good song.

It probably isn't. But I'm bored at work today. Actually, I take no issue with any of the points you made. I realize that dissecting music the way I did takes the pleasure out of it and is not why people listen to music. However, I was taken to task on why I made certain comments, so I just decided to explain exactly where I was coming from.

[ERigby818]

Originally posted by Bella Figura

I personally find aggressive speech tends to dissolve intelligent discourse into a manic verbal tennis match and winds up being a perverse form of entertainment (like a good car crash). So YOU the audience must use your own intelligence, wit and experience and try not get sucked into the mania.
Well said, Bella. I'm trying :laugh:...But here I go.

I respect Carne's opinion that Stevie's writing has deteriorated. I don't agree with it. In fact, when I first read it, it sounded absurd, nothing like this had ever dawned on me. I happen to think the lyrics to Bombay Sapphires are brilliant and powerful and have made a major impression with me. I think he'd respect my opinion. However, when I first read the initial statement implying objective-minded people would agree with the "fact" that Stevie's writing had gone downhill, I was a little offended. I think I am objective-minded, though as a Stevie fan, not completely objective, no. But objective-minded, sure. Which is why I respect the opinion. Heck, in my opnion, Stevie's voice has deteriorated over the years, and I have posted several times whining about her confining her voice to the same small note range. But many ledgies would disagree with me, and argue her voice has gotten better fuller, richer, etc. I can see that point of view. And I respect it. I would never try to pass off my opnion as fact...because it's not.
All I'm saying is I was a little offended by that statement. I'll get over it.

-Sonia

[Wldhrt315]

Listen Carne, you are being a jerk. Most of us here respect your opinion but you are disrespecting a lot of fans and that is not cool. Will you just let this die? If anyone else states their opinion and it has to do about you, just don't answer, not this time. By your responses to my first message you are full of criticisms so please spare me.


Thank you.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Wldhrt315
Listen Carne, you are being a jerk. Most of us here respect your opinion but you are disrespecting a lot of fans and that is not cool. Will you just let this die? If anyone else states their opinion and it has to do about you, just don't answer, not this time. By your responses to my first message you are full of criticisms so please spare me.


You're calling me a jerk and I'm the one being disrespectful? You should look in the mirror.

If you don't want to get involved in the discussion, don't. As long as someone addresses me, I will respond. That's the proper thing to do. If you don't like it, stay out of it. But don't get on here and start name-calling. That's just classless.

[Sugar]

I suspect if someone doesn't want Carne's opinion, the best choice is simply not to get into the fray. The best way to let this die is quit posting to this thread. Period. Frankly I don't care if this thread dies or not, so I'm going to post!

As a Stevie fan I was not offended by Carne's post. It didn't occur to me to get offended. I'm not concerned with Carne's opinion as to what sort of fan I am. I'm not concerned with Carne's definition of "objective" because last I checked, this was a fan message board and for that reason I suspect none of us are really "objective". But I understood what he meant. There are Stevie fans who blindly like anything she does. I liked some of the stuff on TISL, some I didn't like so much. I happen to think that generally the strongest stuff on the album is the older stuff (but I would take the title track and FFG over Candlebright). Am I objective? Am I not? Who cares?

The point is you can only really be offended if you give the other person the power to offend you. :nod:

And for the record, I like "Welcome to the Room...Sara" and "When I See You Again". :laugh:

[Dulcimer]

I find it a little disheartening that people keep attacking one guy for expressing his opinion, and it seems weird that he's always having to defend himself against accusations of disrespect when it was others who disrespected him. I read and reread his original "objective" post, and I just can't see how anyone would take offense at that. He didn't target it at anybody, and yet several people jumped all over him. Wldhrt, what gives you the right to call anybody a jerk? I think Carne has shown more restraint than a lot of other people would've. Give the guy a break. So he's not crazy about Stevie Nicks. Big deal!! Is that any reason to keep attacking the guy?

I've been a member for about a month, and before that I used to come here for months just to read what people were saying. This is a great way to get news of my favorite band. I keep seeing this happen and it's so disappointing... Why can't we just have a civil discussion? If somebody doesn't like a song that Stevie Nicks wrote, is it the end of the world? I can't believe I've jumped into this thing, but there you have it.

Let's be a little more reasonable people.

[ricohv]

Carne-
But is Stevie really inspired if she writes "drowning in the sea of love" but actually sings "drowndin' " in the sea of love" ?

-A Disrespecrful Jerk, Looking in The Mirror-

just kidding! I don't take anything personally here, and don't think anyone else should either...I mean, we're arguing about the merits of the individual members of Fleetwood Mac i.e.: we are all a bunch of freaks!!! :nod:[I]

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by ricohv
I mean, we're arguing about the merits of the individual members of Fleetwood Mac i.e.: we are all a bunch of freaks!!! :nod:Now THAT is the most succinct thing I've read in a long time! :laugh:

Thanks for helping to put it all back into perspective. :)



Johnny Stew (a self-described Mac-Freak)

[Nightbird_Brett]

OK...I've edited my original post. All I wanted to see was a little peace like there used to be in here. Apparently, others rather the fighting. I can respect that opinion.

[Sugar]

I for one enjoy the debate that happens on this board. I LIKE knowing that there are other fans who don't think every FM song is the greatest song ever written and that Mick seems to do anything for a buck (I particularly liked Tracy's comment on burnish.com about not wanting him to have her credit card number! :laugh: ) If I wanted to be on a board of syncophants, I could join the Stepford Fans over on Mick's board. Am I the only one who finds it creepy over there?

And, HELLO, am I the only one who knows that "Reconsider Me"wasn't even written by Stevie?

There's also a good amount of people who have no idea what all the fuss is about...And of course the largest group of people are the ones who think this thing is so ridiculous they haven't bothered to post on this thread at all. So who decides what's offensive? I think it's offensive Carne got called a jerk by someone who was making a case for kinder language. I think it's offensive people challenge Carne and then immediately say, "Can't we all just be a little nicer, I mean, now that I got my dig in..." I'm way more offended by hypocrisy than a harsh tone.

[CarneVaca]

First off, let me say thank you, Sugar, for infusing a bit of sanity into this surreal discussion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nightbird_Brett
Apparently, you do not know the definition of a fact Carne--because what you said there is 100% an opinion.

Oh, come on, I know what a fact is. Honest, I do. I think you missed my use of hyperbole.

One final challenge to you Carne--you think you are this prolific song critic who loves to disect Stevie's songs and that what you say is "academically correct". I was just wondering if you would care to share on the Ledge any of your own original songs that you have written.

I've written a fair number of songs, certainly not as many as Stevie. I like to work on my songs and come up with new chord progressions and ideas. Certainly I don't have a recording contract. It's not my raison d'etre. It's just something I do as a hobby. Every month I take one song to a songwriting workshop, where I perform them with one of my guitars. Then 15 to 20 other people take their turns at dissecting them. You wouldn't believe the amount of criticism I've taken! If you guys think I'm harsh... As a writer, I learned early on that a number of people will always dislike what you create. No matter how good it is. I've also found that a number of people will like stuff that is bad, plain and simple. That is why we end up with disasters like the Bad Street Boys and Britney Spears.

Most importantly, I am my own toughest critic.

As for posting my stuff on this site I once started a thread in Chit Chat
and posted a verse of a song I had written. That's about as much as I want to share for now. Can you imagine how many people would jump at the chance to totally destroy anything I've written? I'm not that crazy.

But beyond the fans, the person you are most offending is Stevie. Who's to say that she doesn't visit the board sometimes?

Honestly? I don't think she even has a computer. In a very recent interview, she mentions her typewriter. I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Typewriter!? That explains why she doesn't edit her songs too much. It's hard to do that with a typewriter! :laugh:

I have not been posting on this board long enough to be stating all these strong feelings about what shouldn't be done on the Ledge.

I think you should continue to post your strong feelings. It's good for the soul. And it certainly doesn't bother me, even if you disagree with me.

[sara1998]

[i]Originally posted by
could you please use your skillful lyrics dissection methods to help me with the likes of Family Man or Big Love? thanks.
[/B]

hahahahaha!!!!LMAO!!!!

You took the words right out of my mouth. While Lindsey is, in my opinion, the best guitar player in the world, Family Man, lyrically, is the worst song I think I've ever heard.

Maria

[ERigby818]

Originally posted by Sugar
I for one enjoy the debate that happens on this board. I LIKE knowing that there are other fans who don't think every FM song is the greatest song ever written
Me too.


and that Mick seems to do anything for a buck (I particularly liked Tracy's comment on burnish.com about not wanting him to have her credit card number! :laugh: ) If I wanted to be on a board of syncophants, I could join the Stepford Fans over on Mick's board. Am I the only one who finds it creepy over there?

OMG, You are not alone. I definitely find it a little creepy over there.


And, HELLO, am I the only one who knows that "Reconsider Me"wasn't even written by Stevie?

LOL!!!!:lol::laugh:

Sugar, I also appreciate your other comments about not letting people offend you and your point is well taken. Thanks :)

And... I LOVE Welcome To The Room...Sara but I really don't care for When I See You Again. ;)

-Sonia

[Cristian]

Originally posted by chiliD
(or is it McCartney/Lennon?)Oh no. Not that again.

A couple of things about this thread:

- It was a really fun thing to read.
- Discussions, even though they can be heated and everything, are helpful. Because they help us to grow up as a person.
- I happen to be in the "neutral" territory here, because I'm a Christine fan... but I really enjoy the fact that both sides can give strong arguments in favour of their respective favorites. Everyone has made interesting points so far.
- Yes, "Family Man" happens to be my least favorite song ever, I just can't stand the blessed thing, it is an embarassing attempt of writing something meaningful.


Song of the moment - Docklands

[BlueGrass]

What's wrong with "Family Man"?! The guitar work is great, I know Lindsey really wasn't a 'family man', but I still like the song s one of my favs on TITN.

[sara1998]

The guitar is brilliant!! No arguement there. But the lyrics?? C'mon!!

Walk down this road/and the road is rough/ I fall down/I get up
I am what I am/ A family Man/Mother/father/brother

Wheres the songwriting brilliance?? What the hell is that all about??

Just curious....:confused:

Maria

[CarneVaca]

There is truth and beauty in simplicity.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

I'm not a native English speaker, and in fact up until a few years ago I didn't know any English at all. And I hate to say it, but Family Man is one of those songs that makes me wish I still didn't understand the language. I love the sound of the song, but the lyrics are too distractingly awful IMO and I think it takes away from the great melody/guitar. I think it's still not as bad as When I See You Again though, which would still be bad even if I still didn't understand English.

[sara1998]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
There is truth and beauty in simplicity.

Can't explain that one, huh??

[seteca]

Originally posted by sara1998
Can't explain that one, huh??

Actually I think that's a perfectly reasonable explanation.

"There's something, and maybe I learnt this from Syd , there's something about [the very simple lyrics to the songs on the album], which is so simplistic and so purile that it would be very easy to write it down on a piece of paper and then immediately scribble it up and throw it into the bin because you'll be laughed at, and maybe I learnt from Syd that it's really important that you don't throw that stuff in the bin, that you keep it...that that almost childish expression of feeling is the important bit, and all the embellishment that goes on around it, is secondary to that."

That's a quote from Roger Waters, talking about the lyrics to Pink Floyd's most critcially and commercially successful album, Dark Side Of The Moon.

Lindsey has shown us well that if he needs to use deep and thought-provoking lyrics to express his feelings, he can. He obviously thought that the simple lyrics of Family Man are what were necessary to get his feelings across. Why open a thesaurus and attempt to paraphrase your own lyrics when what you really mean is perfectly defined by what you have written? Family Man doesn't have to make sense to anybody apart from Lindsey. If anybody else relates to the lyrics, that a compliment to the writer, but nothing more, and shouldn't be automatically expected.

Originally posted by tommer
[b]could you please use your skillful lyrics dissection methods to help me with the likes of Family Man or Big Love? thanks.


The lyrics to Big Love are, in my opinion some of the most powerful lyrics of love (or rather the unbearable pain of lost love) ever written. I can personally relate to them in a major way, and I also know many other people who do, and who would agree with me. I find it very strange that you chose to use that as an example of a song which has "lack of meaning", but that's your opinion and I totally respect that.:) I understand it perfectly, both from my own point of view and also from Lindsey's if I empathise with him when he wrote it in 1986/1987. I could start writing out a lengthy interpretation of it for you, but this has already been done very well in the Penguin's "Interpretations" section.

http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/interpretations/b/biglove.htm

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sara1998
Can't explain that one, huh??

I did: There is truth and beauty in simplicity. And there's no ambiguity in that statement.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't get it. If they're going to whore the songs...

LOL.. whore out the songs. lol. that was so funny.

I thought the song sounded ok (except that it was on a retarded TV promo).. but stevie's gone back to doin the whole.. REALLY DEEP VOICE thing again. i'm not so sure i like that a whole lot. but i'll take it.

quick question for you.. why do you hate stevie so badly?


Sarah

[wondergirl9847]

I agree that simplicity is effective...and I love Family Man too...I love the guitar and I really don't see why you have to use big words to get your point across. :shrug: I mean, poets come in ALL variations...you have those kind of poets that write stuff you CANNOT understand and have to have explained to you :laugh:, you have the poets who write so ambiguously, that you can draw your own conclusions as to what the poem is about and there are poets who write simply but powerfully. It's all good!! I have written lots of poetry over the years, and going back to read it, some of it is, crap, some are really deep and some are simple yet touching. I respect anyone who writes from their heart and that is what Lindsey AND Stevie (and everyone in FM, IMO) do...

Bare Trees is a simple song....

Bare trees, grey light, oh yeah, it was a cold night,
Bare trees, grey light...

Do those lyrics make the song any less great than Gold Dust Woman...

Rock on, gold dust woman, take your silver spoon and dig your grave...

Not in my opinion, I love them BOTH to death!! It's not just about the lyrics, IMO, the rhythm of the song is MUY IMPORTANTE to me in selecting a song to listen to. Lyrics are pretty much secondary to me. I truly do believe that playing a certain instrument and making certain sounds with it can speak volumes more than lyrics sometimes. Some people can't understand why I love ISA so much, well, that guitar solo is AMAZING and to my ears (and soul), it's like someone comforting you with a hug. It's hard to explain in words, but whatever everyone's favorite song is, you understand what I mean. It's on a TOTALLY supernatural level....BTW, I'm listening to Soul Drifter right now...and this song will be played at my funeral....:cool:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Sarah

quick question for you.. why do you hate stevie so badly?


I really don't. It distresses me as a fan that I know she can write better but she does not seem to have enough self-discipline to edit her songs as she should. As an example, you're probably familiar with the stories about her songs being way too long. Sara and Silver Springs come to mind as tracks that had to be pared down to a reasonable length. I know I've criticized her voice too as of late, but I wouldn't mind it as much if she wrote lyrics that, in my opinion, were better. To be sure, her voice on most of The Dance songs sounds pretty damn good.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I really don't. It distresses me as a fan that I know she can write better but she does not seem to have enough self-discipline to edit her songs as she should. As an example, you're probably familiar with the stories about her songs being way too long. Sara and Silver Springs come to mind as tracks that had to be pared down to a reasonable length. I know I've criticized her voice too as of late, but I wouldn't mind it as much if she wrote lyrics that, in my opinion, were better. To be sure, her voice on most of The Dance songs sounds pretty damn good.


imo, she sounded BETTER on the dance than in the past.. absolutely beautiful. very fine, indeed. but on the say you will clip.. she was sounding very low. maybe it was just that part of the song.. but i agree with you on the dance. stevie was sounding very fine at that point. very clear.

i'm not familiar with the original length of silver springs.. i've heard the long versions of sara (unrealistically long.. understandable to write that long for yourself as a hobby.. but for use on an album?? uh uh.).. whats the deal with SS? how long was it originally?

Sarah

[sara1998]

Originally posted by seteca

Lindsey has shown us well that if he needs to use deep and thought-provoking lyrics to express his feelings, he can. He obviously thought that the simple lyrics of Family Man are what were necessary to get his feelings across. Why open a thesaurus and attempt to paraphrase your own lyrics when what you really mean is perfectly defined by what you have written? Family Man doesn't have to make sense to anybody apart from Lindsey. If anybody else relates to the lyrics, that a compliment to the writer, but nothing more, and shouldn't be automatically expected.

Stevies lyrics don't need to make sense to anybody apart from Stevie. I've gotten my point across. While some don't agree with Stevie's style of writing, I particually don't care for Lindseys. But I would never bash him because of it. It's all in your own personal taste, and Stevie shouldn't get bashed because of her own personal writing style.

By CarneVaca:[QUOTE]I've been with you before/I'll be with you again/I'll come back for more, yea/The story has a strange ending [Candlebright]

This is like explaining the punchline to a joke. Don’t tell me it’s a strange ending. Describe the ending and let me decide if it was strange. If it was, and I reach that conclusion, you’ve done the job effectively as a writer.[QUOTE]

If Stevie dosen't want to explain the strange ending, she don't have to. It's her story.

Maria

[seteca]

Originally posted by sara1998
Stevies lyrics don't need to make sense to anybody apart from Stevie. I've gotten my point across. While some don't agree with Stevie's style of writing, I particually don't care for Lindseys. But I would never bash him because of it. It's all in your own personal taste, and Stevie shouldn't get bashed because of her own personal writing style.

Yes, you're absolutely right, what I said applies to Stevie just as much as it does to Lindsey and ANY OTHER song writer: all that matters is that it makes sense to the writer. Anything that happens after that, such as people relating to the song, fans interpreting the song, people criticizing the music/lyrics are all optional extras. And no Stevie should definitely not "get bashed" because of her own personal writing style, and neither should any writer, but personally I see all of CarneVaca's thoughts regarding Stevie's writing style as strong constructive criticism (as I do your comments regarding Lindsey's) rather than "bashing" - besides, it's always nice to have a good debate. My post was not in any way intended to mean "Lindsey can get away with writing simple lyrics and Stevie can't" (in fact, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with Stevie, I didn't even mention her name, and on the whole I like all of her songs, although I'm not a fan of hers as I am of Lindsey's) but was in response to this

Originally posted by sara1998
But the lyrics?? C'mon!!

Walk down this road/and the road is rough/ I fall down/I get up
I am what I am/ A family Man/Mother/father/brother

Wheres the songwriting brilliance?? What the hell is that all about??

...So my point is that that just because a song doesn't make sense to you/anybody else, it doesn't mean that it isn't "brilliant" to the writer/others - a point that we both just re-iterated - you with respect to Stevie, and me with respect to Lindsey. Therefore, perhaps you wrote that just to annoy CarneVaca knowing that he is a Lindsey fan, but he's not the only one, and as a big fan of "Family Man" and pretty much all of Lindsey's lyrics, I answered your question.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[sara1998]

Originally posted by seteca
it's always nice to have a good debate. My post was not in any way intended to mean "Lindsey can get away with writing simple lyrics and Stevie can't."


Therefore, perhaps you wrote that just to annoy CarneVaca knowing that he is a Lindsey fan,

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:


Yes, I agree a good debate is always welcome, and I know you weren't intending to be mean. I didn't take it as such, you had a wonderful point.


And, yes, it was for annoyance...:D

Maria

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by seteca
My post was not in any way intended to mean "Lindsey can get away with writing simple lyrics and Stevie can't"Not in regards to you, but from everything I've observed, the thing some people take issue with, is that there *does* seem to be a double-standard.

It sometimes appears that the two writers are held up to a different set of standards, and that one will be lauded and praised for writing a certain way... while the other is criticized for it, and their talents are called into question.

I think that's what the whole argument boils down to....
Why is it considered brilliant when one does it, and why is it considered garbage when the other does it?
Without a doubt, it comes off as hypocritical to people... and when folks feel as passionately about something, as the fans on these boards clearly do, they're bound to take exception to that mindset.

To me, the answer to the question is very clear... it's all about what speaks to the individual.

I'll quite readily admit that there are lyrics that reach me, and lyrics that don't... but I'd never seriously question their value, because I know that they probably mean something to *someone.*
(Well, ok, you got me... I do question the value of rap... but I'm trying to find an appreciation for it.)

There's nothing wrong with not liking a song, and saying so... but we should be open enough to the idea that somebody else does, whether we can understand why or not.

Maybe if all sides would respect the fact that each of these songs has value and merit... no matter how we may feel about them... then perhaps we can come to some sort of detente around here.

I probably shouldn't hold my breath... but I can still hope.



Johnny Stew

[Janet]

I think songs are about feelings really.

I can listen to one song and think it's great because of how it makes me feel and the next could hate it.

There is a Back Street Boys song that someone could feel is written so well and sung so well and someone else could hate it...

Kate Bush, Stevie Nicks...many women got slammed for their writing...and also praised. They are both really well loved but I think also hated for their mystical look on life and their sometime's off the wall writing. But again, its all feelings.

Lindsey is ALOT more basic and upfront where Stevie is a poet. You can't compare you can just have opinions and feelings..no two people think alike and WHO CAN SAY what is GOOD or BAD! No two people LIKE the same music or respect the same music..thats life.

[CarneVaca]

Every time I think I'm out... They pull me back in.

I can't help jumping back in here, though I was hoping I was done with this thread. Here's how I feel: If you write something for your own personal satisfaction, be it a poem, song, essay, novel or anything else, and you just plan to keep it for yourself, then the gratification you get from it should be enough. However, the minute you give it to the world by publishing it, you've essentially given it up. It no longer belongs only to you. So you have an obligation to your audience. So when someone says if Stevie doesn't want to write something clearly, she doesn't have to, I bristle a little.

If Stevie doesn't want to explain something when she writes something for herself only, that is her prerogative. But when she puts it out in public, she has an obligation to be the best she can. And here's my issue: I don't believe she has been the best she can be with most of these more recent lyrics. But does that matter? Certainly not to the thousands of fans who are still buying her music and perceive some meaning in the lyrics that they can apply to their own experience. Then there's those of us who simply find the lyrics uninspired. Can we express our dislike of her work without being atttacked? It seems that's impossible here.

And I'll make a point about the double standard that Johnny Stew mentions: There is no double standard. Lindsey fans became his fans not because of his lyrics but because of his musicianship and guitar chops. Stevie fans became fans of hers because of her lyrics, her voice and her looks. When the voice, looks and lyrics took a huge dive, her popularity waned. I am happy that she is popular again, but I wish she would write better.

Let's look at the reality of the situation today:

Stevie has recovered some of her voice but she can't sing like she once did. Her writing, and you're welcome to the disagree all you want, simply is not as good as it once was. And she remains an at-best marginal musician who plays the same chords on most of her songs.

Lindsey, on the other hand, is playing and singing better than ever. His voice still reaches unbelievable highs and does very cool lows. His production and musicianship are top notch. And his writing has improved vastly. I'll put up songs like Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind, Murrow, Peacekeeper, Down on Rodeo, Miranda and others against Stevie's Thrown Down, Candlebright, Say You Will, Sweet Girl and just about anything she's written in the last 15 years. If you think Thrown Down or Candlebright are more meaningful than Peacekeerp or Murrow, you most certainly have the right to think so. But I am going to continue to strongly disagree with you.

So where's the double standard? One has continued to improve and reached his apex of creativity while the other, though more popular, to paraphrase Lindsey, is a shadow of the artist she used to be.

And now, at the risk of becoming (??) a serious windbag, I will conclude this post by reiterating that tastes are beyond dispute.

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
tastes are beyond dispute.

I think THAT is the understatement of the MILLENIUM!! :laugh:

Whatever touches you, whatever makes you laugh or cry, YAY YOU!! :blob1: That's what is so interesting about the human race, we all respond to various things differently...and it causes debates as well as bringing us together. Some people think that laughing during a funeral (for whatever reason) is SACRILEDGE while others may not be bothered, thinking that there must be some reason for the laughter, perhaps the masking of pain. That's just the way we are...I'm so glad we can discuss stuff and argue, debate, let off steam, whatever...because we NEED to. :nod:

Carne, I agree with you, Lindsey's voice is WAY strong and I love it more now than ever before...even tho I love his high voice from back in the day too! LOL

Not to be a jerk, but Stevie wrote Candlebright back in the 70's, right? The demo for that is called Nomad.

[tommer]

CarneVaca, it's not like your arguments are 'not allowed', it's just that at some point you just lost your credibility with some people here, everything stevie does is for you another reason to be displeased with her, some of what you say has some truth to it, but at this point you are like the boy who cried wolf.
you choose to see stevie nicks as someone who once was, against lindsey who's the master of all which is brilliant. this theory is very legit, but to me it's a theory which simply contradicts reality.
i could write essays about why to me stevie is far better than lindsey or why is she so much more popular than him, question his abilities, comparing them to her proven ones, wondering about his frustration as a great musician who always had to be shadowed by his ex-lover who dumped him... but i don't.
i actually tried it once and was kicked in the butt (deservingly), i was being tactless, there are nicer ways to put things than the ones you use.

[CarneVaca]

Tommer, I guess ultimately the issue is this: There's a new album about to be released. Lots of people are going to come to these boards to say what they don't like or like about the songs. I probably will do so as well. I am probably going to express opinions that people don't like. Some folks will always say, "It's not what you said, it's how you said it." Well, whatever. I have some problems with how certain opinions are expressed here too, but I don't go picking fights because of "how" they were expressed. So long as the person doesn't insult me, I don't care how they say it.

Frankly, I think every one should get off this artificial moral high ground of "how" something is said because as we have seen, it is often the people who complain the loudest about "how" that turn around and commit that very sin.

Enough on this. I'm getting bored with this thread now. Peace to all.

[Johnny Stew]

This isn't meant as a retort... it's just something I was thinking about.
Stevie has released around 100 self-penned songs in 30 years time (i'm not counting anything that was written by someone else, of course), and only about a half dozen of those, from then until now, can be legitimately deemed outright clunkers by just about everyone.
Anything more than that, is really just a matter of personal preference.

There are songwriters who have considerably less output, in roughly the same amount of years, yet have an equal amount of clunkers.
All in all, I think Stevie continues to have a pretty high success rate.



Johnny Stew

[Christopher]

Johnny-you bring up a very valid point that immediately called to mind when I was reading Carnes post, and I quote:
"I'll put up songs like Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind, Murrow, Peacekeeper, Down on Rodeo, Miranda and others against Stevie's Thrown Down, Candlebright, Say You Will, Sweet Girl and just about anything she's written in the last 15 years."

Lindsey hasn't released anything substantial in 10 years, and has had at least that amount of time to come up with this material, and never has he come close to being as prolific as Stevie -NOT saying that being prolific = better songwriting, But Stevie has amassed a much larger catalog open to more scrutiny, so of course shes bound to have more duds in there ....I can go on and on how uninspired and medicore lindsey's lyrics were to me from the beginning up until OOTC- and he was never breaking the mold using esoteric chord structures either, even Peacekeeper's chords are the usual fare.

BUT I strongly disagree with you Carne, I think Stevie HAS written some very above par material in the last 15 years-same chords or not. i.e. TWISTED - (some of her BEST lyrics); TROUBLE IN SHANGRI-LA - ( great poetic imagery-and fantastic song); PLANETS OF THE UNIVERSE- (even though the chorus was written years ago-she wrote the verses recently-and again great lyrics..."let there be light in this lifetime"......); FALL FROM GRACE!!!, LOVE CHANGES- ( ok this one may be more controversial -but I think its a solid melodic song and also foreshadows a more straightforward and articulate lyrical approach that Stevie seems to be embracing more and more). also BLUE DENIM & KICK IT! from Street Angel.

And let us not forget she had some of her best lyrics ever on
"The Other Side of the Mirror"-The production on it is certainly open for debate, but it was a solid effort lyrically and has some great songs that I can only imagine what they would have been under Lindseys influence.

[David]

Originally posted by Janet
Kate Bush, Stevie Nicks...many women got slammed for their writing...and also praised. They are both really well loved but I think also hated for their mystical look on life and their sometime's off the wall writing. But again, its all feelings. I've always wanted to ask this: What do Stevie Nicks fans mean when they say she (or Kate Bush) is "mystical"?

Kate Bush is featured in next month's MOJO magazine. The writer says that she was asked to open for Fleetwood Mac in the late 1970s on the band's North American tour (not specified which year). Anybody ever hear this? I had no idea!

Lindsey is ALOT more basic and upfront where Stevie is a poet. I don't understand. If your lyric is basic & upfront, you're not a poet?

For all of you pet-owners out there, I can't think of a more basic, upfront---& moving---poem than this:

The old dog barks backward without getting up.
I can remember when he was a pup.

This is Frost's "The Span of Life." Who dares to say that Robert Frost isn't a poet?

Stevie is no more intrinsically a poet than Lindsey is. She may be a better poet from time to time (or she may be a worse poet from time to time), but her stylistic reliance on gothic imagery & frenzied, vertiginous emotional states is no more "poetic" in principle than the brittleness & minimalism of Lindsey's lyrics. You're confusing poetic trappings with poetry itself. Stevie Nicks fans must think that all poetry must resemble stuff by Charlotte Bronte.

If you express your experience in any formal, stylized way, you're a poet! Vernon Young's impressionistic analysis of Riefenstahl's "Olympia" is poetry in addition to being a film review. Dickens' evocation of fog-choked London in the first two paragraphs of "Bleak House" is poetry in addition to being the opening of a novel. Poetry is as wide as the earth.

[wondergirl9847]

Art.

Now, what just now popped into your head as you all read that word? We ALL have a different idea of art. Some people think Picassos' paintings are MASTERPIECES, others look at it and say "My five year old could paint better than that crap!" :laugh: Same goes for poetry...I can read some poems and be touched, others I read and go "What kind of crap is this?"

ANYONE who writes lyrics/poetry is a poet...even Avril Lavigne with the song Complicated. I believe all songs are poems with a melody. Whether you write airy-fairy music or straight, in-your-face music, it's all poetry, because it comes from a person's heart and soul...IMO.

Stevie is known as being mystical because of her "witchy" persona, but also because of her airy-fairy lyrics (NO OFFENSE, I LOVE HER AIRY-FAIRY LYRICS!!!), I can't describe them any other way...they have a mideival quality to them sometimes. Bob Welch and Danny Kirwan have a mystical quality to their music too...and I love them for it! Lindsey has had mystical moments..."That's All For Everyone", "Make Me a Mask", "You and I, Part I", etc...it's that weird, etheral feel to the music.

[CarneVaca]

Christopher, I think David hit the nail on the head. As he usually does.

Let me add this: I will put up Go Your Own Way, I'm So Afraid, Save Me a Place and Can't Go Back against anything Stevie wrote in that same time period. And I realize Can't Go Back and Save Me a Place probably have no more than 50 words piece. But that is the magic, isn't it?

And now, I'm out. I mean it!

[Johnny Stew]

"Save Me A Place" and "Can't Go Back," against the likes of "Storms" and "Gypsy"?
I think even Lindsey might wanna sit that one out! :laugh:


(Just so there's no confusion... I'm only being funny.)



Johnny Stew

[BombaySapphire3]

Johnny you Left out 'Edge of 17." Sara' and "Beautiful Child'

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
"Save Me A Place" and "Can't Go Back," against the likes of "Storms" and "Gypsy"?
I think even Lindsey might wanna sit that one out! :laugh:


(Just so there's no confusion... I'm only being funny.)



You're right, Johnny, that is funny.