The Upside

[chiliD]

Being that there's been quite a bit of perceived "putting down" of Stevie in a couple of threads (granted, I'm one, I admit), let me start a thread dealing with the "up side" of Stevie and her contibutions to Fleetwood Mac. And, please, no choir preaching.



Umm...uh.... hmmm....can't think of anything... :laugh:

(seriously, now)

That she studied the HISTORY of the band before making a decision on whether she & Lindsey should join was just incredible! I think no matter how much I've grown to dislike her in the meantime, that will always be an endearing factor to me; that she RESEARCHED the roots of the band and how she (& Lindsey) could contribute to the band...to still be themselves AND to continue the "thread" that the band had going through it's ever changing personnel over the years.

That what she & Lindsey DID contribute initially, for as much of a change as it seemed at the time, STILL carried on the "sound" of the band...in retrospect, the "white album" seems like a logical follow-up to "Heroes Are Hard To Find", whereas in 1975, it seemed like a big left-turn. The band's new "sound" really wasn't any more "commercial" than that of previous incarnations, just that THIS lineup got the break, the previous one's didn't...space & time; and being in the right place at the right time.

However, what changed for the band was their live show...that first time seeing the "new" lineup in 1975 was amazing...the energy that Stevie brought to the live show was hypnotic.

Her strongest songs (IMHO):
Landslide
Rhiannon
Dreams
Gold Dust Woman
Sisters Of The Moon
Storms
Angel


After "Tusk" (and the subsequent tour) the vibe of the band changed so dramatically that even though it still was the "fireflies" it seemed like a different set of people. A different, less pleasing, dynamic came to the forefront. Instead of five people acting as a single entity, it seemed to be five individuals doing their best (and not always succeeding) to work together. The vibe seemed to be gone. But, for that initial 5+ year run, it was just MAGIC!

[jwd]

To me Stevie's contributions to Fleetwood Mac is first and foremost her voice. Not only was it unique on its own but it blended in so magically with Lindsey's and Christine's...the three part harmony was beautiful.

No one writes a song quite like Stevie. Once again a style all her own. The ambiguousness that leads to the perfect connection. There's something that one can get from her songs and relate it smack dab to what's happening in your life..... her connection through her writing touching millions of Fleetwood Mac fans.

Her stage presence...as Steve said was, and imo is still hypnotic. Even if you didn't like the music, how could you not look at Stevie up on stage...front and center. The image of Fleetwood Mac....the woman all the women wanted to be like and the woman all the men wanted to be with...or vice versa if you know what I mean. ;)

It was endearing to know that Stevie took the time to go back through all the Mac catalogue and see if she and Lindsey would fit into FM and if they could get something back. But above and beyond that was her loyalty and committment to FM, and I think for the most part above her solo career.


Joe

[rhiannon1119]

I agree with the both of you on all of your points. I couldn't have said it better!

:) Michelle

[Rumours]

Gosh, you mean there's an upside?????
Originally posted by chiliD
Umm...uh.... hmmm....can't think of anything... :laugh:

Mmmmm-k, we could have done without that.......

Stephanie

[Hawkeye]

it was a joke. he even put a :laugh: after it. Anyways to add to all the other things added, it's that right now Stevie is the ONLY one throwing us bones about the new album. Lindsey may be the sound of fleetwood mac and i adore his musical genuius, but as far as we fans are concearned he Doesn't exist. He hasn't said a single thing at all. Neither has john, but he has a right to not say anything. The only way we know lindsey is even on the Record is from Stevie saying that he was working on her songs. Stevie has told us Everything about the new album. Lindsey hasn't breathed. Thank you stevie.

[Les]

Originally posted by Hawkeye
Neither has john, but he has a right to not say anything.

Why? I've kind of been waiting for this topic to come up because I'm curious why Lindsey or Chris in the past have always gotten the flack for low profiles (even though they're hard workers) and John gets ignored and no expectations are ever placed on him in terms of publicity. He is, afterall, the Mac of Fleetwood Mac.

[Johnny Stew]

Good question, Les!

I've wondered about this too. I *think* it must have to do with the fact that John isn't one of the band's songwriters. Christine, Lindsey & Stevie are sort of expected to pull double-duty as liasons between the band and the fans, because they're more "out front."
And Mick... well, it seems to also be expected of him, because he's always been the band's unofficial leader.

Chris, Stevie, Lindsey & Mick are seemingly held up to a higher level of expectation by the fans, than John is.
Fairly or unfairly.



Johnny Stew

[Hawkeye]

i meant that john's just not the interveiw type. Ever since the band was born he hasn't been into that i think. So he really shouldn't have to be expected to say anything. I mean it's not like John's going to be the one to tell us the release date of the album or something. That's something the other 3 need to do. Stevie's done the most. Mick did it for his BIRTHDAY. Lindsey is silent.

[Les]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawkeye
i meant that john's just not the interveiw type.

Christine and Lindsey are both quiet and very private, but do a lot of press once the album is officially scheduled for release. That's often been their pattern in the past. If John is following his usual pattern, so is Lindsey.

I mean it's not like John's going to be the one to tell us the release date of the album or something. That's something the other 3 need to do.

Why not? He's in the band. He's got to know as well as the others do when it's going to be out and when he needs to be ready to rehearse for the tour.

Stevie's done the most. Mick did it for his BIRTHDAY. Lindsey is silent.

I guess one might wonder why Lindsey or John need to say the same thing that Stevie and Mick have already said. It's something Mick and Stevie love to do, so it seems like that's taken care of. They've both indicated that Lindsey's working hard, so perhaps it's best he continue on that path and do what he does best. As has been brought up quite a bit lately - they are a band and they each provide strengths for the others' weaknesses.

He does exist - Stevie and Mick said so! ;)

[Les]

Back to the topic at hand...I think the best thing Stevie brought to Fleetwood Mac is, plain and simply, her voice. I just think it's a unique and startlingly emotive voice. She's got a real talent for vocal phrasings.

[golddustchic]

Along with her brilliant songwriting, I agree that Stevie's voice is a powerful instrument itself. It's like, you hear the first word that she sings, and you know it's her. And then you are in a, like, trance until the song is over(at least that's MY reaction). Her voice is so amazing in how it shows her emotion. You almost don't even need to listen to the lyrics to hear what she's feeling, the voice says it all.

[CarneVaca]

The biggest credit I can give to Stevie Nicks is that she was probably the main reason Fleetwood Mac became such a huge band in the 70s. Let's say Lindsey had joined without her, I think the band would have still been a hit, the music would have still been magical, but the droves of fans that flocked to the band probably would not have done so without the Stevie mystique.

That may sound strange coming from me, considering I have knocked her for the image thing. But when I was a teenager and Stevie started appearing in videos, Gypsy in particular, her appeal was undeniable. She was a beautiful woman with a singular voice. You cannot take away the contribution she made to the band in those early days. So I agree with ChiliD's assessment about the first five years or so.

After Mirage, she started to decline. And I liked The Wild Heart well enough. There were some good songs, but the beginning of the decline was already noticeable. With Rock a Little, I started to lose interest. I did not like her contributions to Tango. Fast-forward to The Dance: she sounds positively great in Silver Springs. The other songs, especially Dreams, don't do it for me. I prefer the original versions. I don't find her current songwriting particularly great and I no longer like her voice.

Finally, I would make the point that Stevie has had a tremendous influence on other artists. Like her or hate her, she has left an indelible mark on pop culture. And above all, she is a survivor. I am glad that she has enjoyed some success in recent years, and those fans who still find her as appealing as I once did are entitled to enjoy her and her music.

[Vianna]

Stevie's gift is her ability to write lyrics that really speak to people. I remember when, back in the eighties, my mother was terminally ill with cancer, I had a druggie student I was trying to do something about and I was working two jobs to try to support us, I often was so wired by the time I finally got to bed I couldn't sleep. Many's the night that "Storms" and "Beautiful Child" finally calmed me down enough to sleep. I felt like she had suffered like I was suffering at that time. It's unique ability to be able to relate to people like that-not everyone has that. Lindsey for all his musical genius has a hard time with it, much as I love him=:-)

Stevie also has the ability to reach out to people when in performance. She's got that audience in the palm of her hand in two minutes (not literally of course)She makes friends for the band. The others, other than Mick, don't do as well with this-I think they are all-Chris, Lindsey and John, kinda shy maybe-you can tell how nervous Lindsey is in performance if you watch the videos closely=:-)

I often think both Stevie and Mick could have gone into acting with great results if they had not been in rock music=:-)

[wondergirl9847]

As most of you already know, I am a Lindsey FANATIC, BUT...
Stevie is :cool: too. :nod: Let me list the reasons why I love that "witchy woman". :laugh:

Her way with fans...she keeps it "real" because of how she is at concerts and I assume with fans personally...she's goofy sometimes, silly and down to earth.

Her songwriting....I love her songs, they are mysterious (Gold Dust Woman), fun (Sister Honey, which I used to not like, but now I love it! LOL) and silly (Goldfish and the Ladybug anyone? LOL) too. Her lyrics are wierd, cryptic, heartbreaking...and I LOVE them!!

Her voice...well...she's not the greatest singer in the world, but she's got a unique voice, NOBODY sounds like Miss Stevie, even tho they tried with "Imaginary Lover" and "Do I Bring You Down". :lol:

[Bella Figura]

there are many things that make Stevie an integral part of FM, to narrow it down is very hard but I do have one thing I admire about her is that she is able to create a sense of stillness without looking stilted or uncomfortable onstage. Example, the Dance video, if you watch her during Lindsey's solo during Landslide, she is listening right along with the audience. Her ability to remain still onstage and let others have the spotlight without losing her own star appeal is unique. I have never seen it with any other performer...

[becca]

I think she has been the most successful member of FM ever, there is a reason for that. She has become a superstar/celebrity in a sense I don't think you can say about the others in that if people know of only one name or image connected to FM it is likliest to be hers.

Artistically and commercially she has hit big some home runs. You couldn't avoid Gypsy for a couple years. I remember Rhiannon was huge with teens when it was out. Dreams. I think those have to be the three most successful songs ever.

Unfortunately you can get overexposed and tired of some of it. I tend to play Kirwan, Welch and Christine McVie songs mostly now myself, if I am not in a blues mood. I used to prefer Buckingham and Nicks once, well, always liked Christine's songs too.

[The Tower]

Richard Dashut once said "Stevie is SUCH a nice lady.."

I really appreciate how warm and congenial Stevie CAN be- granted, she's had her volatile moments.

The fact that she had (has) such a great, sisterly relationship with Christine. The part of the Tusk documentary where John carries/drags her away from the photo shoot and both of them are laughing. Her ability to be bright and smiling with Lindsey, even when they may not like each other.

That kind of stuff....

[tommer]

to me the answer to this question is trivial,
stevie nicks is the heart and SOUL of fleetwood mac. easy.
i can say for myself that yes, i came because of christine and lindsey, but i stayed because of stevie.

the other main contribution is of course sales figures, it was proved that she may not be the biggest hit maker at times, but the band can have a no.1 album without lindsey (and i'm sure they will still sell nicely now without christine) but with stevie the equation is clear, no stevie=no sales.
all you stevie critics here can bitch as much as you like, but the fact remains that since 1977 (in theory, and since 1981 in facts) this lady did not need fleetwood mac for her career, the band depended on her and not the opposite.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by tommer
all you stevie critics here can bitch as much as you like, but the fact remains that since 1977 (in theory, and since 1981 in facts) this lady did not need fleetwood mac for her career, the band depended on her and not the opposite.

Tommer, you make an important distinction by using the 1977 date. Correct me if I am wrong, but by using that date you are conceding that Stevie most positively and absolutely needed Lindsey to become who she became. And that is what we diehard Lindsey fans have argued. Is Stevie a magnificent stage presence? Yes. Did (and I mean did) she have a lovely voice to accompany some surprisingly different and fresh lyrics? Yes. Was she photogenic and deserving of all the attention she got? Yes and maybe.

My second point is this: Stevie arguably did not need Fleetwood Mac from circa 1978 to about 1986. But after the release of Rock a Little, she started to lose popularity. We've discussed ad nauseum why, so I shan't get into that. So she started to need Fleetwood Mac again. But around 1990 with the release of Behind the Mask, signs started to appear that Fleetwood Mac NEEDED Lindsey Buckingham. Proof: Fleetwood Mac asked Lindsey for a new song and used two Lindsey outtakes for its The Chain box.

In 1995 (or whenever Time came out) it became OBVIOUS that Fleetwood Mac needs Lindsey Buckingham. So, you see, it all goes back to Stevie needing Lindsey to REMAIN commercially successful, though one can argue that she is popular on her own. Don't believe me? Let's compare the sales numbers of the next Fleetwood Mac studio album with TISL. In fact, let's do an album pool (like the superbowl pools) and see who gets closer.

So in conclusion:

Stevie needs Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac needs Lindsey Buckingham. Therefore Stevie Nicks needs Lindsey Buckingham.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Stevie needs Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac needs Lindsey Buckingham. Therefore Stevie Nicks needs Lindsey Buckingham.


There are a gazillion ways to look at every situation, and you're nuts if you don't think that the reverse or your above scheme is also true. That is to say, that Lindsey needs Fleetwood Mac, Fleetwood Mac needs Stevie Nicks. Therefore Lindsey Buckingham needs Stevie Nicks.

[tommer]

Correct me if I am wrong gladly.
you are conceding that Stevie most positively and absolutely needed Lindsey to become who she became.
and lindsey needed mick. LUCK was the main factor there.(and I mean did) my english sucks, but i think the correct word to use there is "IS" and not "DID"
signs started to appear that Fleetwood Mac NEEDED Lindsey Buckingham. Proof: Fleetwood Mac asked Lindsey for a new song and used two Lindsey outtakes for its The Chain box. they also used an unreleased jeremy spencer track, is it your idea that they needed him too? and anyway, i consider 'make me a mask' to be one of "fleetwood mac"'s all time lows.In 1995 (or whenever Time came out) it became OBVIOUS that Fleetwood Mac needs Lindsey Buckingham as i mentioned earlier, the difference between the two lindsey-less albums was the absence and presence of stevie, one did well despite lindsey's absence (but with stevie) and one failed (no stevie=no sales)it all goes back to Stevie needing Lindsey to REMAIN commercially successful.....Let's compare the sales numbers of the next Fleetwood Mac studio album with TISL.i rather compare TISL's sales to Gift Of Screws' "sales". stevie never sold more than FM, yet one could only speculate as for what hights her solo career could have gone to if she would have taken it more seriously and not as a side effect to her band's career. let's do an album pool (like the superbowl pools) i'm not american. i've no idea what you mean.Stevie needs Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac needs Lindsey Buckingham. Therefore Stevie Nicks needs Lindsey Buckingham.not exactly. there will always be a record company out there who would love to help stevie's songs see the light of a music store's shelf, she doesn't need the 'fleetwood mac' title to release her songs.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by tommer
and lindsey needed mick. LUCK was the main factor there.

I'd call it happenstance.

[B] they also used an unreleased jeremy spencer track, is it your idea that they needed him too?

At that point, they might as well have tried that. Of course, new tracks from Stevie and Christine were also used. But not only did they get a new track from Lindsey, they dug up two of his unreleased tracks as well. The point being that he wasn't officially in the band then, and they asked him for a song. If that weren't enough, they went to the vaults for more of his stuff. The unreleased Spencer track was obviously for historical purposes.

there will always be a record company out there who would love to help stevie's songs see the light of a music store's shelf, she doesn't need the 'fleetwood mac' title to release her songs.

That may be true, but 20 years from now we might be saying the same about Spitney Beers too.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

There are a gazillion ways to look at every situation, and you're nuts if you don't think that the reverse or your above scheme is also true. That is to say, that Lindsey needs Fleetwood Mac, Fleetwood Mac needs Stevie Nicks. Therefore Lindsey Buckingham needs Stevie Nicks.


Very good point

Pip

BTW...LMAO at Tommers signature :laugh:

[sulamith]

SmthngOfADreamr!
I was going to post the EXACT same twist on Carne's post!
Glad we think alike!

Admittedly this is fun to discuss as long as we know we aren't going to change anyone's mind and nobody of going to get mad.

Having said that, I will venture out onto this rather precarious limb and say that I agree FM needed Lindsey in 1974, but what if he had joined without Stevie?
Without the eye-candy of Stevie, would the band have been as successful?
Would they have gotten as much attention?
Imagine 70's FM with no Rhiannon, no Dreams, and a HAPPY content Lindsey with a sweet little gypsy wife at home and nothing to rail about. That would have led to no GYOW, no Chain, no Tusk, etc, etc....

Sounds pretty boring to me.

They would have been like America, or the Doobies, or MAYBE Queen if they had dressed Mick up in a dress more often and Lindsey went heavy on the eye shadow.

I'm glad they "needed her" even if they didn't know they needed her as much as they needed Lindsey.

This really is an endless debate isn't it?

[tommer]

The point being that he wasn't officially in the band then, and they asked him for a song. if my memory serves me well, stevie wasn't officially a band member too in 1992.
That may be true, but 20 years from now we might be saying the same about Spitney Beers too. (you didn't get my hint...)

[The Tower]

Originally posted by sulamith
They would have been like America, or the Doobies, or MAYBE Queen if they had dressed Mick up in a dress more often and Lindsey went heavy on the eye shadow.

Have you seen some of those tour shots from the Tusk era??? Lindsey was the Queen of Eye Shadow and Eye Brow Pencil!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Maybe that's what Stevie was talking about in "Nightbird"..... ;)

[CarneVaca]

Sorry... can't talk now. Too busy working on my next episode of...
Tusk: The Story Behind the Story.

[Johnny Stew]

I'm really not trying to cause an argument, or perpetuate one... and i'm also not trying to be contrary....
but I'd venture to say that the inclusion of "Silver Springs" on '25 Years - The Chain' was regarded as more of a selling point than "Goodbye Angel" and "Teen Beat."
(And I should note at this moment, that "Goodbye Angel" is one of my favorite songs.)

With absolutely no disrespect meant towards Lindsey in any way, shape, or form, i *do* believe that Stevie's presence in Fleetwood Mac does bolster their sales a little more than if Lindsey were there sans Stevie (referring back to that 1995 blurb by Entertaintment Weekly: "who gives a Tusk about a Fleetwood Mac without Stevie Nicks?" And *this* being said at a time when her career was allegedly in ruins).

But the absolute undeniable fact of the matter is, the inclusion of BOTH individuals at the same time, is what *really* boosts the Mac, sales-wise and creatively (IMO).

Lindsey is a force to be reckoned with in Fleetwood Mac. He has crafted some absolutely brilliant and beautiful songs, and can simultaneously create the most scorching, yet subtle guitar lines.

Stevie gives Fleetwood Mac a voice that is instantly recognizable (whether you love it or hate it), lyrics that are poetic and moving, and a certain je ne sais quois that seems lacking without her.

Fleetwood Mac has existed without them, and has done very well for themselves, but in my opinion, their inclusion kicks everything up a notch.


Johnny Stew

[bjk3047]

my english sucks, but i think the correct word to use there is "IS" and not "DID"
No, that's quite legitimate as is. Oh yeah, and it's gramatically correct too. ;)
they also used an unreleased jeremy spencer track, is it your idea that they needed him too?
There's a bit of a difference between using one unreleased song, and using two unreleased songs AND ASKING for another new one. He wasn't even part of the group! And how do you figure on Stevie not being in the band? She sang backup on Heart of Stone...
as i mentioned earlier, the difference between the two lindsey-less albums was the absence and presence of stevie, one did well despite lindsey's absence (but with stevie) and one failed (no stevie=no sales)
Oh I'm sorry, follwing up 5 straight multi-platinum albums with a gold certification is.....doing well. My mistake.
i rather compare TISL's sales to Gift Of Screws' "sales".
Seeing as how that's quite possible and all.
stevie never sold more than FM, yet one could only speculate as for what hights her solo career could have gone to if she would have taken it more seriously and not as a side effect to her band's career.
Not to be picky, but if you're the one who's going to bring up grammar...height. And yes, merely speculation, nothing more. And if you call 2 albums in a 5 year period in which FM was not together...a side effect...well, in my opinion, you'd be wrong.not exactly. there will always be a record company out there who would love to help stevie's songs see the light of a music store's shelf, she doesn't need the 'fleetwood mac' title to release her songs.
Once again merely speculation. You don't know there'll ALWAYS be a label, there hasn't yet been one...

And how does one figure that Lindsey needs Fleetwood Mac? He's released albums on his own time and really hasn't given a crap about what the public thinks of his work. It's not like he has or had much of an image that he needed to sell records. So what part of FM does he need?

-Brian

[sulamith]

Tower, he did go pretty heavy on the eyeshadow, didn't he?
The guy has a little punk in is soul, I guess. He can play in my make-up case anytime, kinky boy.

Johnny once again, SO right you are, and just what alot of us keep repeating and I guess will continue to repeat........
Hey dudes! It's all about Stevie and Lindsey TOGETHER!!!
Buckingham Nicks kicks butt! Such a perfect blend of feminine and masculine, dark and light. Soft where it needs to be soft, hard where it needs to be edgy and raw, dreamy, sensual, and quiet and loud all at once.

There's no other combo like them, hands down, like it or not.
This new CD is going to rock my soul, and I can't wait for the latest from Buckingham Nicks!

[tommer]

And how do you figure on Stevie not being in the band? because the boxed set came out less than a year after her crisis with mick when she said she's leaving FMSeeing as how that's quite possible and all. right. i was being sarcastic in case you didn't notice.Not to be picky, but if you're the one who's going to bring up grammar...height i'll take a wild guess: my english is far better than your hebrew.And if you call 2 albums in a 5 year period in which FM was not together...a side effect...well, in my opinion, you'd be wrong.in each and every case of a band's vocalist having a parallel carrer as a solo artist the result was either leaving the band (neil young, phil collins...) or leaving the solo career as a secondary effort (mick jagger, dave gahan, stevie nicks...) ...And how does one figure that Lindsey needs Fleetwood Mac? as i mentioned earlier (read before you reply) sadly, currently that's the only option he has to release his material He's released albums on his own time as we witnessed, these rare occasions occur (or don't occur) at warner's decision and not his.and really hasn't given a crap about what the public thinks of his work. and the general public cared about them the same way in return, didn't they...

[jwd]

I agree that the best combination is Lindsey and Stevie together in what we now know as FM. Well put JS!!

Lindsey never needed FM to make his music, but apparently he has needed them, and in particular, Stevie Nicks, to SELL it. Stevie has not needed FM since the Rumours lineup became famous back in the mid 70s. Her solo career has proven this and given the fact that there was very little help, if any, from any of FM's members. If anything Stevie Nicks could have had a much more successful solo career if she had not stayed in Fleetwood Mac.

The only thing that brought Stevie's solo career down was because of her own personal problems, not because Lindsey wasn't there.

Tommer, some people get caught up in grammar and things....I knew what you were saying just fine!

Yeah, and I always thought that eye shadow Lindsey was sporting was a little WEIRD!


Joe

[David]

Originally posted by tommer
stevie never sold more than FM, yet one could only speculate as for what hights her solo career could have gone to if she would have taken it more seriously and not as a side effect to her band's career.
How much more serious could Stevie have been with her solo career?

I just don't consider her solo career a footnote to her main career in Fleetwood Mac, despite what Stevie herself has said so often. Every time she says it, I think she's full of crap. She enjoys rewriting her own history. She has always wanted her fans to think that she continually cut short her solo career activities in order to "be available" for Fleetwood Mac. She has rewritten history, pal, & she wants you to believe the corrected version.

If you tally up the months spent making her own albums & doing her own shows, that number will vastly exceed the months she spent working on Fleetwood Mac albums or doing their tours. I can think of only one time -- & it's never been actually verified -- that she might have cut short a solo activity in order to start working again with the band on its own schedule, & that was when she did just twelve solo shows in 1981 so that she could fly to France with Fleetwood Mac to start recording.

Otherwise, it's been pretty much a full-time solo career for Stevie Nicks since 1981. She spent a few weeks in France recording with Mac in 1981, then spent another six or eight weeks at Larrabee with Mac finishing overdubs, & that was it for "Mirage." She then spent several months doing her own album, & broke for a mere seven weeks for the Mac tour, after which she got right back to her own album, which took her through early 1983. Her tour that year took about six months of her time -- one for rehearsal & five for the shows.

She spent the next two years, on & off, putting together her next album. Once that was done, in late 1985, she took off to Australia with the Heartbreakers while the rest of Fleetwood Mac was in preproduction for "Tango." Over the next year, she spent about five months on the road again for her solo career, & spent about ten days (according to the others) recording for "Tango."

I don't want to go on -- this is boring. But I really think that I've made my case that Stevie's "side" career all these years was Fleetwood Mac & her main career was definitely her solo career, & it was plenty serious. Now, the other members of Fleetwood Mac were as much to blame for the all-around halfhearted efforts; Christine & Lindsey didn't seem to care that the band was lying dormant for years at a time. This isn't a Blame Stevie game -- they were all morons when it came to the group's activity level. But for Stevie to say repeatedly throughout the years that the band somehow interfered in some serious way with her solo career is just rank idiocy. It's a Stalinesque rewrite of history, a purging of the facts & a reconstitution of the party line.

Other than that, though, how's everybody doing today? I'm listening to "Rock a Little" here & blissing out to "If I Were You" & "The Nightmare." Stevie has transported me to another world.

[jwd]

The ONLY time Stevie was not really involved with Fleetwood Mac was for Tango and we all know what shape she was in at that point in time. Other than that Fleetwood Mac was not really an active band at all during her solo career years. Maybe give her some credit for at least putting out her songs when there was no other outlet for her, at least not in FM. The point is that she didn't have to be in FM, but she was because I truly believe she LOVED being in that band. I don't think that's crap at all.


Joe

[rhiannon1119]

I agree with you Joe. Once Stevie did Bella Donna.. it did pretty well. She could have easily said goodbye to Fleetwood Mac to concentrate on her own solo career. Instead, she chose to do both. Most people who are in a band, when they do solo projects, sometimes leave the band because they think they can be more successful by themselves. I give Stevie credit for sticking with Fleetwood Mac and maintaining a successful solo career too.

:) Michelle

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
"Silver Springs" on '25 Years - The Chain' was regarded as more of a selling point than "Goodbye Angel" and "Teen Beat."


Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten that song is in there. Well, I have to agree with that assessment. Damn you and your elephantine memory, Johnny!!!

[becca]

Well... technically all FM needs to be FM is Fleetwood and McVie. They did complete and sell nine whole albums and a few singles besides without any Buckinghams Nicks or Fritzeses, and a couple best ofs as well. They weren't totally wasted or boring years before they hit the Frampton/arena scale. Mick found Buckingham and Nicks from hearing Frozen Love, and he found other people before and after to invite into his group. His group is what he wants it to be. There would have been no FM for them to have joined if all that went before (for eight years) was not successful.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Damn you and your elephantine memory, Johnny!!! :)
Ahh, but if only I had paid as much attention in Algebra class as I did to Fleetwood Mac!
:laugh:


Johnny Stew

[Johnny Stew]

I totally know what you mean, Becca, and I'd be one of the last people to ever write-off Fleetwood Mac's wealth of great music, both before and after Buckingham & Nicks.... I just feel that the presence of *both* Lindsey & Stevie boosts Fleetwood Mac's appeal (to the general audience, at least) and definitely their sales.

And yes, that so-called Buckingham & Nicks chemistry has sometimes over-shadowed the great musical legacy that Fleetwood Mac possesses, but I also think that it greatly enhanced Fleetwood Mac's bankability.
In saying that, there's also no question in my mind that being in Fleetwood Mac helped Lindsey & Stevie.



Johnny Stew

[David]

Originally posted by jwd
The ONLY time Stevie was not really involved with Fleetwood Mac was for Tango and we all know what shape she was in at that point in time.
From the David Gans interview in The Record, Sept 1982:

The roaring success of Nicks’s solo album, Bella Donna, and her absence from recording sessions, interviews (at least those concerning Fleetwood Mac) and tour preparations seem ample evidence to support the notion that the singer has reached the point of self-sufficiency.

Nicks, on the other hand, was scheduled to show up only for the last ten days of work prior to the start of the tour.

"She phones her part in," says [Christine] McVie without a trace of irony.

No one in the Fleetwood Mac organization seems to know for sure what Nicks’s intentions are with respect to the band, and when asked if she would respond to specific issues raised in the interview with the others, a representative of Azoff’s company said, "She just wants to work on her record."

I stand completely by what I said earlier: Stevie Nicks put the majority of her time & energy into her solo career from 1981 to the present. To listen to her talk about the situation all these years, you would think that she was constantly forced to drop everything & run to a studio or a rehearsal hall because Fleetwood Mac called. I think her real response most of the time was more along the lines of: "When I'm done with my album, I'll help do yours" or "When I'm back from my tour, I'll start packing for yours."

Her solo career was her primary career; Fleetwood Mac was what she did in between solo gigs. And who can blame her? If I were Stevie Nicks back in those days, I'd have put my solo career ahead of Fleetwood Mac, too. Why would anyone want to hang around a studio with a bunch of people who don't really have a lot of professional respect or admiration for you? You'd have to be really cruel or short-sighted to blame Stevie for cutting out instead of keeping couped up with Lindsey & Christine & Mick & listening to the three of them browbeat you or snicker at you all the time. So good for Stevie for putting Mac second once her own career took off. I say go for it, Stevie. Good for you.

Nevertheless, that *is* what she did. If she wants to reinterpret the past by rewriting her history with the band and claim that she had to squeeze her solo career into the stray few hours or days that Fleetwood Mac allotted her, that's her business. But I'm certainly not going to believe it.

As far as the other thread's topic -- "Who needs whom more?" -- I think they all need a job.

[jwd]

Yep, I think there's only so much a songwriter/singer can contribute to making a record, especially when you're one of three and not a musician. She has felt like there was really no reason for her to be there. Same could be said for the upcoming lp when she handed over her songs to Lindsey for the band to work on and then join them later to do her vocal parts. What's wrong with that? I wouldn't say she was putting her solo career over that of FM's, just good time management. ;)

I think the only time Stevie fell a little short in her efforts was the songs she contributed to Tango(this is debateable too) mainly because of her condition. Even if she didn't show up like the other band members thought she should have for Mirage she certainly contributed three knock out songs for the record.

Posted by David: You'd have to be really cruel or short-sighted to blame Stevie for cutting out instead of keeping couped up with Lindsey & Christine & Mick & listening to the three of them browbeat you or snicker at you all the time.

If that is true I would only think it would be because they were so jealous of her and the phenomenal solo career she was having.....something they would never achieve.



Joe

[David]

Originally posted by jwd
If that is true I would only think it would be because they were so jealous of her and the phenomenal solo career she was having.....something they would never achieve.
Actually I kinda think it was just that they thought she was a ditz.

[bjk3047]

because the boxed set came out less than a year after her crisis with mick when she said she's leaving FM right.
Welllll she was presumably with the band while recording Paper Doll and Heart of Stone...I find it incredibly hard to believe that she wasn't percieved as part of the band.
i was being sarcastic in case you didn't notice.
My apologies, didn't catch that.
i'll take a wild guess: my english is far better than your hebrew.
I look forward to The Ledge V. 2.0 available in Hebrew only. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Hebrew, you opened up the can of worms by mentioning grammar bub!
in each and every case of a band's vocalist having a parallel carrer as a solo artist the result was either leaving the band (neil young, phil collins...) or leaving the solo career as a secondary effort (mick jagger, dave gahan, stevie nicks...)
I think that's a bit of a vast generalization there. Each and every case? And you still didn't answer my question! How are two albums in a 5 year FM dormant period a side-career? Do you honestly think she cared in the least as to the status of FM during any of those five years?
... as i mentioned earlier (read before you reply) sadly, currently that's the only option he has to release his material
Again, wonderful use of factual information. How you just arbitrarily decide that that's the only way LB could release material? I wasn't aware that his solo work had to pass by you before making it to the public.
as we witnessed, these rare occasions occur (or don't occur) at warner's decision and not his.
We witnessed? Oh man! Who forgot to tell me about all of us being allowed in the Warner Brothers office meeting? Once again, your argument has no leg to stand on...at absolute best. Bring the WB exec in to tell me LB wasn't allowed to release an album, then I'll shut up.
and the general public cared about them the same way in return, didn't they...
Perhaps the Stevie fans...;) Ok ok, I was kidding. The general public did better with SN's 90's releases?
-Brian

[jwd]

Posted by David: Actually I kinda think it was just that they thought she was a ditz.

Funny how the "Upside" is turning into the downside. :laugh:

One "ditz" that made them a hell of a lot of money!!! :nod:


Joe

[Lori]

Originally posted by sulamith
Soft where it needs to be soft, hard where it needs to be edgy and raw...

Sharon, I am rotflmao that you managed to avoid saying "hard where it needs to be hard..." :laugh: I bet it was difficult for you to avoid, though, considering we ARE talking about darling Lindsey, huh? ;)



Originally posted by Johnny Stew
and a certain je ne sais quois that seems lacking without her.

Fleetwood Mac has existed without them, and has done very well for themselves, but in my opinion, their inclusion kicks everything up a notch.


Hey, Johnny, for those of us who took Spanish in school, how exactly does "je ne sais quois" translate? I can see I need to brush up on my German... *snort* ;)

Also, I totally agree with your last paragraph 100%; the SN/LB duo within the context of FM is what makes them a magical, mystical powerhouse (oh yeah, and the rhythm section so happens to kick ass, too). :nod:

Okay, I've had my fun being a smart@$$...I'm outta here.

Oh, and a shout out to Joe and Johnny Stew, both! How are my buds? I've missed you two! However, Mommyness and Wifelyness is consuming most of my time these days...I'm popping in here when I can, to read, which isn't often, but pretty much keeping quiet. Hope all is well with the both of you! Take care, guys!

Lori :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

Hi Lori!

"Je ne sais quois" is a French term for "something indescribable." :)

Good to hear you're doing well... even if you've been a bit busy lately (to say the least)!

Things are good here.... can't complain.
(Well, i *could* but what good does that do! :laugh: )

Take good care!

Johnny Stew

[Lori]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew

"Je ne sais quois" is a French term for "something indescribable." :)

Hey, thanks for the translation!

And sheesh, Brian, I do hope you know that I knew that was French...I was joking about the German thing...I may have lost many, but I don't think I've lost ALL of my brain cells - YET! :D

Lori :wavey:

[tommer]

Welllll she was presumably with the band while recording Paper Doll and Heart of Stone...I find it incredibly hard to believe that she wasn't percieved as part of the band. they BOTH wern't official members at the time, her recording with them (instead of just giving solo stuff and labelling it 'fleetwood mac' like lindsey did) just comes to show how cooperative she was despite her situation with mick, and her good nature. you opened up the can of worms by mentioning grammar bub! again, read before you post. i initially claimed my english sucks.I think that's a bit of a vast generalization there. Each and every case? please gimme ONE good example to prove me wrong then.And you still didn't answer my question! How are two albums in a 5 year FM dormant period a side-career? that's because i still don't understand which albums you are refering to.your argument has no leg to stand on...at absolute best. Bring the WB exec in to tell me LB wasn't allowed to release an album, then I'll shut up. do you REALLY want me to rub it in??? okay. Gift Of Screws is a finished project which warner declines to release for several years now, probably because they don't really like losing money over LB again. if they didn't need him for FM's sake they would have let him 'go his own way' a loooooong time ago. (and no, i don't have a WB exec to testify this in a court of law, these are just circumstantial evidences, but quite solid ones i'd say) recording his music with fleetwood mac is the only option he has to release his music at the moment (oh...truth bitter truth...). The general public did better with SN's 90's releases? indeed so. in the US alone her 90's releases scored 2 gold and 1 platinum status, which is more than all of the other band members' solo projects ever, combined.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by tommer
okay. Gift Of Screws is a finished project which warner declines to release for several years now, probably because they don't really like losing money over LB again. if they didn't need him for FM's sake they would have let him 'go his own way' a loooooong time ago. (and no, i don't have a WB exec to testify this in a court of law, these are just circumstantial evidences, but quite solid ones i'd say) recording his music with fleetwood mac is the only option he has to release his music at the moment (oh...truth bitter truth...). indeed so.

Conjecture, sheer conjecture. The truth is we truly don't know exactly what went on, except for Lindsey admitting that he was considering releasing the material as a Fleetwood Mac album so it would get more exposure. That Out of the Cradle did not sell is a sad reality that I blame on the label. At best, their marketing muscle being the record was half-hearted. Let's see how much more promotion will go on when the new record comes out.

By the way, since the grammar dispute over "did" originally referred to something I wrote, just to clarify: "Did" was the grammatically correct use of the tense in the sentence in question. I am not a native English speaker either, but I make my living off the English language.

Lastly, I agree with David's assessment of Stevie's dedication to Fleetwood Mac after 1981. And I would add that in light of this, her villification of Lindsey Buckingham when he decided to walk out in 1987 was doubly gallling. Not only did he put his own album on hold to reluctantly work with the band and dress up her bottom-of-the-barrel songs, he had way bigger hits on that album than her sad excuse for a song, "Seven Wonders."

Tango was as great as it was because once again, Lindsey Buckingham was fully in control. It was successful in spite of Stevie Nicks.

Peace

[tommer]

Out of the Cradle did not sell is a sad reality that I blame on the label. i don't. did you expect them to be some kind of alchemists to make this album into gold? one fine song and a beautiful sleeve are not enough to sell a record apparently.he put his own album on hold to reluctantly work with the band a reminder: there was a 5 year gap between TITN and OOTC. he always seem to have an album down his sleeve. he claimed the same regarding The Dance and the current recording sessions (should we expect GOS's release in 2008 then?) I am not a native English speaker either that's okay, you don't have to be one in order to like lyrics such as Big Love, Caroline and Family Man, although TITN is a masterpiece in terms of production, i listened to some better lyrics (than lindsey's contributions there) which were sung by britney spears.It was successful in spite of Stevie Nicks. my guess is that you just say this in order to irritate, i give you enough credit knowing you are not foolish enough to really believe that.

[sulamith]

Here we go......the same argument AGAIN, when we are supposed to be primarily talking about the upside of Stevie.

Who contributed more, who contributed less, who's contributions were done reluctantly, who's songs sucked, who put their solo album on hold, who held the others back, who was there, who wasn't there, who is responsible for more sales....blah, blah, blah...


Just like Stevie isn't everyone's cup of tea, neither is Lindsey.
There are alot of people who think he just sucks, the same way alot poeple think Stevie sounds like a bleating goat.

No matter how many rounds we go with each other we won't ever know.

Ok, I'm done, resume your debate, but neither of you will emerge victorious, and you will propbably only tick each other off.

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tommer
i don't. did you expect them to be some kind of alchemists to make this album into gold? one fine song and a beautiful sleeve are not enough to sell a record apparently.

So you actually did like one song? Better than nothing.

he always seem to have an album down his sleeve.

That's because he did. No one is more frustrated than I at how slow he is to produce an album.

i listened to some better lyrics (than lindsey's contributions there) which were sung by britney spears.

Well, that speaks volumes, doesn't it?

guess is that you just say this in order to irritate, i give you enough credit knowing you are not foolish enough to really believe that.

OK, let's take the first part of that. Nothing I say on this board is intended to just irritate. That would be a waste of my time. I happen to be able to talk about this band without getting my knickers in a twist. When people say they don't like Lindsey's music, as you have, I simply shrug or, if you're funny about it, laugh. That's about all it's worth. I don't get irritated, unless someone clearly attacks me, which has happened. As far as I'm concerned, you can say whatever you want about the band and its members, and you will never irritate me.

As for whether I am "foolish enough to believe that" -- that being my assertion that Tango was successful in spite of Stevie -- I sincerely believe it. I have no doubt that the Stevie crowd rushed to the stores to buy the album because of her. However, when Big Love, Family Man, Little Lies and Everywhere became ubiquitous on the radio for about two years, I equally have no doubt that it had nothing to do with Stevie Nicks. (As I recall, Seven Wonders disappeared from the airwaves a few weeks after it was released, not to be played ever again with any regularity.) What it had to do with was flawlessly produced, well-written songs that caught the listening public's ear. Seven Wonders, and the other two Nicks contributions to that album, were among the worst of Stevie's songs that have been officially released. And much of that was because her voice was shot, though it has gotten better since. I am not trying to knock Stevie by saying that, (I believe she's admitted her voice wasn't at its best back then) nor am I telling anyone they shouldn't like said songs. I was agreeing with David, who made some excellent points.

[The Tower]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
However, when Big Love, Family Man, Little Lies and Everywhere became ubiquitous on the radio for about two years, I equally have no doubt that it had nothing to do with Stevie Nicks. (As I recall, Seven Wonders disappeared from the airwaves a few weeks after it was released, not to be played ever again with any regularity.) What it had to do with was flawlessly produced, well-written songs that caught the listening public's ear. Seven Wonders, and the other two Nicks contributions to that album, were among the worst of Stevie's songs that have been officially released. And much of that was because her voice was shot, though it has gotten better since.

I was a HUGE Mac fan and very much into their activities when Tango in the Night was released.

I never ONCE heard "Family Man" on the radio- Top 40, AOL Rock, AAA... "Big Love" didn't get much airplay after its initial release. "Everywhere" and "Little Lies" (in particular) were played to DEATH on several different formats. "Seven Wonders" did okay, with modest video airplay and limited radio airplay.

I do recall that a LOT of Mac fans thought that Stevie's voice was allll over "Big Love", which it wasn't. And Stevie's background vocals were a huge contribution to the success of "Little Lies"- believe it or not.

IMO Tango in the Night is a very weak album, most of it due to the overall poor songwriting from all three writers (the only great songs on the album are "Isn't It Midnight" and "Tango in the Night").

I really think that TITN's huge sales, etc. were really due to "reunion promotion" (they got a TON of MTV promotion for weeks and weeks and weeks), not the quality of the album. But that's just my opinion.

Yes, Stevie's contribution to TITN was limited at best- however, I'm surprised she would even want to show up given the situation(s) at the time.

So, an UPSIDE to Stevie for being brave and showing up and participating in Tango in the Night, when most others would have said "FORGET IT!"

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by The Tower

So, an UPSIDE to Stevie for being brave and showing up and participating in Tango in the Night, when most others would have said "FORGET IT!"

Upside the head? :laugh:

[The Tower]

Originally posted by CarneVaca


Upside the head? :laugh:

Hilarious.... :D You shouldn't be soooo mean to poor, little Stevie. Shame on you!

Just kidding!!!! :laugh:

[chiliD]

Yes, Stevie's contribution to TITN was limited at best- however, I'm surprised she would even want to show up given the situation(s) at the time.

So, an UPSIDE to Stevie for being brave and showing up and participating in Tango in the Night, when most others would have said "FORGET IT!"


People have been asking me to the effect, "Why are you so down on Stevie Nicks, chili?"...

The above situation is a "case in point". Once she started off on her solo career in 1981, she has seemed to place more priority on her solo career than she did with the band. Sure, she's SAID things to the contrary in interviews, but the ol' "actions speak louder than words" thing holds true in this case. She's kept the better songs for herself, she's seemed to save her best performances (both live & in studio) for herself, etc. Like we as Fleetwood Mac fans are just supposed to fall over backwards that she decided to show up for a couple of weeks (and not consecutively) to the Tango sessions?? The results speak volumes. Oh, gee, Stevie, thanks for NOT putting "Gypsy" on Bella Donna...and thanks for bringing us "Welcome To The Room...Sara" when we could've had "If I Were You" or "No Spoken Word", etc, etc.

And, since 1997, the same is true...the whole "Dance" reunion was INTENDED to be the catapult for Lindsey's solo album, but who reaped the benefit? Stevie and her "Enchanted" box. Stole the limelight again.

[AliP]

Originally posted by chiliD


And, since 1997, the same is true...the whole "Dance" reunion was INTENDED to be the catapult for Lindsey's solo album, but who reaped the benefit? Stevie and her "Enchanted" box. Stole the limelight again.


But I don't see how that can be blamed on Stevie like she "intentionally" stole the limelight. Of course, we don't know all the facts, but Lindsey's delayed release could have been the result of several things ie. the record company, Lindsey dragging his feet etc. To me, it seems, that Stevie knew she had a huge opportunity after The Dance and she jumped on it. I don't see anything wrong that. It's too bad Lindsey wasn't able to do the same thing.

[chiliD]

Regardless of "intention", it's what happened.

[The Tower]

Once she started off on her solo career in 1981, she has seemed to place more priority on her solo career than she did with the band.

If I were in Stevie's situation I would have done exactly the same thing. The other band members didn't exactly give her any reasons to stay. After Tusk, I'm really surprised she came back to the band. I guess it just shows how much she loves being in FM, or maybe it's something else.

Sure, she's SAID things to the contrary in interviews, but the ol' "actions speak louder than words" thing holds true in this case. She's kept the better songs for herself, she's seemed to save her best performances (both live & in studio) for herself, etc.

I don't agree with the "kept better songs for herself" part. I'm sure that mostl of the songs on Bella Donna were available for FM to use/choose for the group albums. I think its more of a timing thing than anything else. She wrote "Edge of Seventeen in 80/81. If I had written that song, would I hold it FM somehow miraculously decides to get back together? Or would I record it and move on? I would pick the latter.

I have seen a show from every single solo tour Stevie has done, and I STILL think her best live performances have been with FM.

And, since 1997, the same is true...the whole "Dance" reunion was INTENDED to be the catapult for Lindsey's solo album, but who reaped the benefit? Stevie and her "Enchanted" box. Stole the limelight again.

I thought The Dance was designed to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Rumours? If it was supposed to catapult Lindsey, they sure did a crappy job of presenting it that way- considering he never even released a solo album. It's not Stevie's fault that her box set was successful and Lindsey was out of the limelight- simply fans buying product and Lindsey not putting out any product to buy.

[rhiannon1119]

Yes, I agree.. that is what happened... but wasn't Stevie getting ready to start work on a new solo album before the Dance? She put that project on hold when they decided to do the Dance... just as Lindsey put his solo project on hold to do the Dance. What happened after the dance was just seizing an opportunity. Stevie saw an opportunity and took it. Lindsey could have just as easily done the same thing... just my opinion.

:) Michelle

[jwd]

Stevie cuts short her solo tour for Bella Donna. Was this because she was needed to record with FM again on Mirage? She just had experienced one of the most successful solo outings for a woman in rock at the time and FM decides to do another record. What does she do....well of course go back with FM, the band that she really does love.

Nothing is going on between then and Tango....Stevie has released RAL and touring for that and on a crash course with cocaine addiction. What was it that brought FM back together...Christine doing a soundtrack to a movie and gets the boys in the band to help out. Hey this sounds really great....maybe we could give it one more shot!!! Oh and we have to get that "ditzy" blonde chick Stevie so we make sure we sell a few million. Hope she's available...I'm sure she's not BUSY right now!


I think Stevie always wanted to be in FM first and foremost. Seemed to me the other members of FM were the ones who made the call on when to do their next project, regardless of what Stevie was doing at the time. She didn't have to do it, she didn't need to do it; she probably shouldn't have done it based on her schedule and her physical condition.....but she did because she did care......and nothing you can say can change my mind!


Joe

[tommer]

Originally posted by chiliD
...and thanks for bringing us "Welcome To The Room...Sara" when we could've had "If I Were You" or "No Spoken Word", etc, etc.
i challenge anyone to stick a gun to my head and kick me in the balls and i will STILL claim Welcome To The Room...Sara to be very close to being stevie's best record ever.

[jwd]

HI LORI!!! :laugh:

Doing just fine.....Hope all is well with you too!

Johnny Stew(Brian) and I are coming over for dinner tomorrow night...what we havin' Mommie? :)


Joe

[EnchantedStorms]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't it the record company's idea to release Enchanted? Seems like I remember hearing Stevie say that in some tv interview, or something...?


~~Angela~~:wavey:

[Rumours]

"The above situation is a "case in point". Once she started off on her solo career in 1981, she has seemed to place more priority on her solo career than she did with the band."
**Not in agreeance here. She was using big gaps between times when the Mac decided to release something to get more of her music out there, instead of letting it sit in a vault somewhere--plain and simple.

"She's kept the better songs for herself, she's seemed to save her best performances (both live & in studio) for herself, etc. "
**I don't think this is the case at all.....I love Stevie's solo stuff and seeing her solo, but first and foremost, nothing gets me more than Fleetwood Mac and Stevie's songs with Fleetwood Mac.....I think over-all, people recognize much more and enjoy much more her big songs with the Mac over her big songs in her solo career.

"Like we as Fleetwood Mac fans are just supposed to fall over backwards that she decided to show up for a couple of weeks (and not consecutively) to the Tango sessions??"
**She had already done her album and was doing her tour. It's not like Fleetwood Mac said "ok, we're going back in to the studio and doing another album, let's go" and Stevie said "oh no thanks, not right now, I'm going to go record an album of my own instead and do a subsequent tour.....oh and go into rehab just for the hell of it too after that....I'll call you when the time is right for me, then we'll record together".........She was using down time with them to do her own thing.......you could say to this, why did they decide to record when they knew she wasn't available to join them???? They waited FIVE years....what was another few months????

"and thanks for bringing us "Welcome To The Room...Sara" when we could've had "If I Were You" or "No Spoken Word", etc, etc."
**I ADORE No Spoken Word, and If I Were You is also a very good song......but Welcome To The Room....Sara is nothing to sneeze at either.......autobiographical of what her life was like at that point.

"And, since 1997, the same is true...the whole "Dance" reunion was INTENDED to be the catapult for Lindsey's solo album, but who reaped the benefit? Stevie and her "Enchanted" box. Stole the limelight again."
**So totally not true......let's remember here that Stevie was under contract with Modern to release one more album before she could leave them......which was the Enchanted Box set........but she was planning to do this before The Dance happened AND she specifically asked Lindsey (and I would imagine the other members as well) if the Mac reunion was going to happen......to make up their minds......she was on board with them first......if their thing wasn't going to happen, THEN she was going to move on with her thing--what would become the Enchanted box set. It was THEIR choice. The Mac came first........subsequently resulted in The Dance.....then she went ahead with her project. Lindsey could have done the same, but we STILL have not seen a release. Where is Stevie to blame for this??? Is she suddenly holding "Gift of Screws" hostage with an evil grin on her face??? I think not.
But how is, basically saying, count me in if we're going to do a Fleetwood Mac thing and I will put my solo project back on the shelf if we're going to do this, and pick back up with my solo project after the Mac thing is done, putting her solo career before Fleetwood Mac????

Stephanie

[greatdarkwing]

Let's say *****to please the Stevie bashing crowd****** that Stevie stole the limelight......then where was Lindsey between 1998 and 2001???? He could've easily released 'GOS' in that time period......In my opinion, I don't think 'GOS' was ever ready....Like I said, there was AT LEAST a 3 year time-frame that he could've released the album......

~Alex

JUST MY OPINION:wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by chiliD
thanks for bringing us "Welcome To The Room...Sara" when we could've had "If I Were You" or "No Spoken Word", etc, etc.Is it really reasonable to blame Stevie for using "If I Were You" or "No Spoken Word" (or *any* song that someone deems to be stronger than those she contributed to 'Tango') on her solo album, at a time when a new Mac album was merely a possibility?

Was she really supposed to say, "well, ok, since Fleetwood Mac might record again someday, I should save this one, and that one, and oh, I better save that one too."

When Fleetwood Mac decided to record a new album in the middle of 1985, Lindsey could mine the album he was working on, and give over to Fleetwood Mac the songs he felt were the best, because his album was a work in progress.
Stevie's album was a done deal by that time.

(By the way, Lindsey wrote "Soul Drifter" during the recording sessions for 'Tango In The Night'... while the band was in the other room, in fact.
So, by the "Stevie saved the best songs for herself" logic, was Lindsey wrong for saving "Soul Drifter" for *his* solo album, since it's a stronger song than "Family Man"?)


Another thing to consider... even if Stevie *had* saved "If I Were You," for example, it doesn't mean that Fleetwood Mac would have definitely recorded it.

It seems to me she has given Fleetwood Mac first dibs on many great songs over the years ("Think About It," "Sorcerer," "If You Ever Did Believe," "Beauty And The Beast," "Smile At You," "If You Were My Love," etc., etc., etc.), and they passed over them again and again.
It's obvious that Fleetwood Mac chooses the songs they want to use for their albums, and not necessarily the songs that *we* might feel they should have chosen.

Personally, I feel that "When I See You Again" IS one of Stevie's greatest songs. It's been a personal favorite of mine for years... and I can easily say that I prefer it over "No Spoken Word."
So, more than anything, it's a matter of "you can't please all the people all of the time."

Now, I'm not someone who feels that everyone should adore every single thing Stevie Nicks has ever done, sung, said, or written... but this current wave of "Stevie is the Anti-Christ" sentiments really boggles my mind.

Do people honestly feel that she should have never recorded an album of her own, and spent the rest of her career sitting next to a phone waiting for Fleetwood Mac to call?
Letting dozens upon dozens of songs just stack up, but never daring to use them in case Fleetwood Mac wanted to maybe record them someday?

Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.


Johnny Stew

[Johnny Stew]

And CarneVaca... I'm not trying to nit-pick, or anything, but I don't think that 'Out Of The Cradle' suffered from a lack of promotion.

The record company released no less than three singles from the album, and filmed videos for every single one of them... Billboard Magazine did two features on Lindsey... and he appeared on Leno, Letterman (twice, if I recall correctly), Live With Regis & Kathy Lee, ABC In Concert, VH-1, and PBS (just naming the ones that come to mind)... not to mention the tour.

There were also print ads (in magazines such as Rolling Stone), and promo flats for displays in record stores.

'Out Of The Cradle' did not deserve to fizzle out at #128 on the Billboard Top 200 Albums chart... it's a brilliant album, and deserved so much more... but I really don't know what more could have been done to promote it.


(Again, I'm not trying to be nit-picky... and i'm definitely not picking on you, CV... but I should also add that "Family Man" charted at #90 on Billboard's Hot 100 Singles chart. If you're going to compare the two, I don't really think it can be considered a bigger "hit" than "Seven Wonders," which peaked at #19.)



Johnny Stew

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Lori
sheesh, Brian, I do hope you know that I knew that was French:laugh: I knew you knew (Sounds like a 'Three's Company' kinda sentence!)... I just reiterated that it's a French phrase. :)


Johnny Stew

[chiliD]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Do people honestly feel that she should have never recorded an album of her own, and spent the rest of her career sitting next to a phone waiting for Fleetwood Mac to call?


Not the "rest of her career", but for as long as she's a member of Fleetwood Mac, that's what she should've done. Granted this is all hindsight & what if, etc, etc, etc, but I think BOTH Lindsey & Stevie should've outright quit after the Tusk tour, let Fleetwood Mac find replacements then. I really think that we would've seen more music out of them all if that'd happened. And, that's NOT saying that either or both of them wouldn't have found their way back into the band at some point SOONER than 1997, as well.

"Stevie is the Anti-Christ"??? Maybe I skimmed over too many posts, but I don't get THAT from this thread, at all! And, is definitely not MY view.

Ok, why don't we start a Mick discussion on how he f***d up Fleetwood Mac's career by mismanaging the band on the Tusk tour...leading to each member of Fleetwood Mac having their OWN managers and how it probably takes more heated negotiations than the baseball owners/players union to get anything accomplished?? ;) :nod:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew

(Again, I'm not trying to be nit-picky... and i'm definitely not picking on you, CV... but I should also add that "Family Man" charted at #90 on Billboard's Hot 100 Singles chart. If you're going to compare the two, I don't really think it can be considered a bigger "hit" than "Seven Wonders," which peaked at #19.)


I think we've had a similar exchange before when I made the point that even though a song may hit the top 10 on the charts it may just as quickly disappear not to be heard again. This charts game you like to use proves very little. How many Grateful Dead songs actually were singles? Yet you may turn on a classic radio station and hear plenty of dead. Same goes for Led Zeppelin. Fleetwood Mac, even. Did Landslide chart before 1997? I don't think it was released as a single, yet it got plenty of radio play. That goes for Silver Springs. I would occasionally hear it on the radio before it was ever included in The Chain box or The Dance. Even Go Your Own Way and Tusk didn't chart very high, as I recall. Yet it would be fair to say that Go Your Own Way is Fleetwood Mac's signature song.

The other point I would make is that there are regional differences. Where I was living at the time, Family Man was played on the radio constantly for months. And as I said before, Seven Wonders was here today, gone tomorrow.

[Johnny Stew]

CarneVaca... I thoroughly agree that a high ranking on the Billboard charts doesn't inherently imply that a song is great.

The only reason I brought up the subject of chart placements, was the fact that you said "Family Man" was a bigger hit than "Seven Wonders."
Charting at #90 compared to #19 does not a "bigger hit" make... that's all I was trying to say.


(For the record, "Go Your Own Way" peaked at #10, and "Tusk" peaked at #8... all discussions of song quality aside, both *can* be considered "big hits.")


And you're right, it does make a difference what region you live in, as far how much a song gets played.

When "Little Lies" was released as the third single from 'Tango In The Night,' "Seven Wonders" was still being played to death around here (the Pittsburgh area).
"Big Love" was a bigger "hit" on the charts, but it didn't seem to get as much airplay (I only heard it once on the radio, in fact, before I bought the album) as "Seven Wonders"... but neither got anywhere near the amount of airplay that "Little Lies" did around here.

In 1990, "Affairs Of The Heart" received WAY more airplay around here than "Skies The Limit," and it wasn't even released as a single. ("Freedom" was also played a few times around here)

To this day, Stevie's songs seem to play more often on our local stations than Lindsey's or even Christine's.
If I hear a Mac, or Mac-related tune, more often than not I hear "Dreams," "Rhiannon," "Landslide," "Silver Springs" (The Dance version), "Gold Dust Woman", "Gypsy," "Edge Of Seventeen," and "Stand Back"
"The Chain" gets played a lot too.
Then on occasion I hear "Go Your Own Way," "Don't Stop," "World Turning," "Over My Head," "You Make Loving Fun," and "Everywhere."

To top it off, we have one local DJ who almost always says, "and that was Stevie Nicks & Fleetwood Mac with ____"... even if it's one of Christine or Lindsey's songs!


Johnny Stew

[chiliD]

Let's also not forget that the actual chart position isn't relative to total units sold...a song that only got to #15 conceivably could've sold MORE units than a song that reached #8...it's all relative to what else is on the charts at any particular moment.

[tommer]

generally speaking- yes,
but a situation in which a record that's peaking at #90 sells more units than a record that's peaking at #19 is HIGHLY unlikely.

[CarneVaca]

I didn't know Go Your Own Way and Tusk charted that high. I honestly thought they had languished at the bottom of the Top 40 somewhere. I suppose I could just go to the relevant section of this site to avoid such misconceptions. Then again, nah.

I'm so out of it when it comes to what's on the radio anymore. I'm going by what I used to hear 10 years ago. Interestingly, when I turned on the car radio by mistake to a classical radio station just last weekend, the opening bars of Go Your Own Way spilled out of my speakers, so I turned it up. By the way, volume buttons on the steering wheel are the way to go!

I'd say Dreams and Edge of Seventeen still get a fair amount of play around here (New York metro) too. And The Chain of course. Interestingly, Stand on the Rock got played for a while in the Boston market (where I was living then, and I don't mean the chicken place).

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Stand on the Rock got played for a while in the Boston market (where I was living then, and I don't mean the chicken place). :laugh: If you *had* heard "Stand On The Rock" in a Boston Market (the chicken place), that could have sparked an interesting conversation too... Mac songs we've heard in restaurants!
:)


Johnny Stew

[CarneVaca]

Interestingly, Johnny, the only places outside of my house, car or office where I've ever heard Soul Drifter and You Do or You Don't were retail stores. The Gap and a local supermarket come to mind. The label must have gotten those songs on some PA System music licensing deal, and they are still played to this day. Funny, heh?