Interesting numbers... [Archive]

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 09:59 AM

Folks, calm down!

I think what happens here is that the Stevie fans feel slighted that she gets fewer songs on albums though she's had the most popularity.

But think of how us Lindsey fans feel. Without him, there would be no Fleetwood Mac sound. All we would have is a spectrum of sound and style differences throughout the years without any cohesion. If not for Lindsey, who gave Fleetwood Mac the sound we all know Fleetwood Mac for, the band probably would have stayed in the outskirts of oblivion forever. It would have disappeared in the mid 70s, I'm sure. Kudos to Mick for spotting the great talent that Lindsey is. And remember, Mick didn't even want Stevie in the first place!

Yet Lindsey is totally underrated. He hardly, or rarely, shows up on "best guitarist" lists and historically he has gotten very little of the band's spotlight. In my estimation, he only really started getting his due when the Dance came out.

Stevie wrote some great songs. That is absolutely a fact. But starting in the mid 80s, her stuff became mediocre. And I believe that a lot of people around here would agree with that.

itsmeangie

08-12-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Folks, calm down!

Stevie wrote some great songs. That is absolutely a fact. But starting in the mid 80s, her stuff became mediocre. And I believe that a lot of people around here would agree with that.

I agree, CarneVaca.
And to those who think that you have to love everything that Stevie does and believe that she can do no wrong in order to call yourself a fan, I disagree.
She's written some great songs and some not so good songs (and some pretty bad songs too as a matter of fact).
That said, i still have the audacity to call myself a Stevie Nicks fan.

*angie

Bella Figura

08-12-2002, 10:44 AM

Just my two cents as both a FM fan and Stevie fan, I think one thing the non-Stevie fans who are totally entitled to their opinion need to understand is that us Stevie fans have had to endure lots of bad press and social put-downs about Stevie, both past and present...Stevie is a no-talent, Stevie is a has-been, Stevie is fat and lazy, Stevie is this, Stevie is that. It has been this way always since the beginning, just read some Rolling Stone articles and you can understand how belittleing it can be to be a Stevie fan. and it was especially hard during the late 80's and early 90's but we made it through.

And with each literary arrow/dagger thrown her way, the social structure continues to try and make her fans feel stupid to enjoy her music/personna. And so we have become more tighter and adamant in her defense. including on this board. I know it can be especially hard on those Stevie fans who come to this board to share their enthusiasm and love of Stevie and her music, They can be gravely disappointed when other FM fans have their own favorites including negative Stevie opinions. But please know that our extreme defense of Stevie comes from a past of hard knocks...Social fabric loves to put people on pedestals only to tear them down at a later time, and from my point of view and experience, society is particularly viscious on women. It can be very perverse and cruel when a woman is on the downside of fame...case in point, Anna Nicole Smith...

I personally came to this board as basically only a Stevie fan and have enjoyed and appreciated having my musical landscape broadened by Lindsey's, Peter Green's and even Bob Welch's music and their wonderful fans. It only has enriched my love of the Mac and does not detract from my love of Stevie's music. As a fellow FM fan, I can only ask that all the non-Stevie fans, try once again and re-listen to her famous stuff and then try some of her new/rare stuff as well, I think as FM fans you will be pleasantly surprised and be re-enraptured by the whole FM magic once again, a perfect time to do so since the new tour will hopefully start in 2003. Believe me as a fellow FM fan, don't listen to just the social/literary hype, Stevie has done some great music since the 70's...

Hawkeye

08-12-2002, 12:09 PM

I Adaore stevie probibly as much as anybody, BUT there was a time frame where she SUCKS. from 1973-1983 Stevie did not have ONE bad song. every Fleetwood Mac Song she did was PERFECT and Bella Donna was PERFECT, and the Wild Heart was all good too. And The live performances I've seen and heard are Spectacular. Stevie looked Great in this time period. It was here 73-83 where stevie was truly to me the greateest musical person ON EARTH. But then comes Rock a little which was a collection of EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE songs. But her live shows were still firery, so this 85-86 era is like a grey area, the calm before the true disater hit. Enter Tango in the Night. 3 PATHETIC songs. Even the much loved Seven Wonders sucked. and now even her live performances are horrible. I've seen the Tango in the night video and she is a lifeless zombie. Then comes an even LOWER point but not the LOWEST, that comes later. OSOTM comes out, and is easily her worst solo work. Although there are a few good songs, this is not a very good album. But Stevie hit the VERY BOTTOM of her career in 1990 with her freaking Behind the Mask songs, and crappy voice. The Second time was not a song it was something someone thwer up. But Stevie finnally rebounds for me in Street Angel, a much disliked album that i fell is leaps and bounds better then TOSOTM. It's a step back to her earlier songs and it rocks. but she is not FULLY back for me. from 1995- 2001 she wrote many great songs and with TISL regained her praise from me. It aint AS good as 73-83 but it'll do for me. Again this is how i fell about stevie, I LOVE HER to death except for those 87-93 years.

Hawkeye

08-12-2002, 12:11 PM

I wrote that long reoply and stupidly ended up putting it in the wrong topic:rolleyes: :laugh: i want this in the talent thread

bjk3047

08-12-2002, 12:14 PM

Bella Figura: I believe that's the most level headed thing I've read on the pro-Stevie side in the past couple weeks. Comments like that make me respect your position on the issue, honestly.
Two additions I'd like to make though. 1. I don't think some of us are making comments meant for others to take as "negative", they're just comments meant to place a different amount of value on Stevie in this case. We just think contributions can be made, but they can only go so far compared to others'. I must say, I LIKE her contributions for the most part. 2. We're not in any way attempting to keep you from enjoying Stevie, we're just giving our opinions of her and her music.
Thank you very much for the post again, I can much more easily accept and respect your opinion without some of the bias and defensiveness I've seen in other posts.
Hawkeye: You know, you can delete a post by clicking on edit and checking the box for delete if you wish. Just an undo button of sorts :)
-Brian

Hawkeye

08-12-2002, 12:25 PM

i know that, but i don't want to re-type the post. So i'll leave it here. now thqt i look at it, it can belon here too i guess.

AliP

08-12-2002, 12:44 PM

The thing that gets me down when I read stuff like this (negative posts) is I feel like I'm one of the few that truly appreciates FM (Rumours) lineup as a whole group. Sure I have my favorite members etc. but I can't say that any one member takes precedence over the other or is better etc. I truly appreciate each member for the contributions they have made. I don't "worship" any member and I see that each one has their faults and is not perfect. I don't feel like I need to get defensive when somebody expresses an opinion or uses constructive criticism. Most importantly, I don't feel the need to put down one member to build another member up. Really, thou how many out there can truly say that they *like* each member of the group and above anything would love to see a "Fleetwood Mac" concert rather than a "Stevie solo concert" or a "Lindsey solo concert". I, for one, can say I have been a Fleetwood Mac fan first and always will be.

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by AliP
The thing that gets me down when I read stuff like this (negative posts) is I feel like I'm one of the few that truly appreciates FM (Rumours) lineup as a whole group

AAHHHHH!!!! Therein the rub. When the band was acting like a band, they could truly be appreciated as a group. Starting with Tusk, they were going their own ways separately, even though they managed to pull it together for what in my opinion IS the Fleetwood Mac masterpiece. Then Stevie went solo ("Never gonna make it, baby" Could Lindsey have been more wrong?) and she started contributing crappy songs to Fleetwood Mac. Even though Gypsy is a great song, everything else that she gave Fleetwood Mac after that was crap. Yet her blind-faith friends were still eating it up. Sorry, the quality is simply not there.

Meanwhile, Lindsey was getting better.

Now, I'm told TISL has great stuff. It doesn't appeal to me, but fine, that's a matter of opinion. Now let's see what she gives the band this time. More crappy leftovers? This is my issue. I do not want another Fleetwood Mac album if it's going to be a bunch of great songs from Lindsey peppered with crappy leftovers from Stevie.

David

08-12-2002, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Yet Lindsey is totally underrated. He hardly, or rarely, shows up on "best guitarist" lists and historically he has gotten very little of the band's spotlight. In my estimation, he only really started getting his due when the Dance came out.
As far as the public is concerned, maybe that's true. But LB has almost always been praised in the rock press, which is usually where the really interesting opinions are found. Particularly in 1979, he was considered a breath of fresh air (by the way, how stale that cliche has become). During their commercial heyday, when they were still a fascinating & vital presence on the pop-rock scene, Fleetwood Mac were critics' pets, & LB typically received the lion's share of credit -- whether it was the band's arrangements & production in the studio or its live gigs. His confidence grew onstage over the years from the time he joined the band, & by the time the whole "Tusk" dunciad rolled around, he was, as a couple of rock reviewers in the L.A. Times noted, dominating the band's live shows as the kinetic center. I was lucky enough to see the band play a bunch of times in those days, & he really was the dominant force, whether he was driving the band into hard-rock terrain instrumentally or forcing the others to continually take chances in their appeal. He loosened up the others considerably, so that his bandmates' songs, like "Angel" or "Over & Over," became dazzling, sexy displays of on-the-fringe prowess.

Johnny Stew

08-12-2002, 01:48 PM

Well, most likely this is the last post I will make on the subject, since this horse is long dead, and now very well beaten.

I read Bella Figura's post, and I think she perfectly struck the nail on the head.
Many of Stevie's fan take these debates to heart, because there always seems to be an air of snobbery throughout the proceedings.
The implication always being that Stevie Nicks fans are mindless sheep, worshiping at an altar somewhere, giving their souls up to some chick rock 'n roll star, and just waiting for the day when they can put on their platform boots and the Halle-Bopp comet will come take them away.

I'm well aware of Stevie's limitations as a musician and a singer, but that doesn't tarnish my enjoyment of her music.
I'm also aware that not every song she writes is a masterpiece, but that doesn't stop me from being entertained or moved or inspired by them.
Lindsey and Christine have written some pretty big stinkers as well.

Lindsey was indeed the chief architect of the Fleetwood Mac "sound," but his vision wasn't always spot on. He's produced some songs that can be deemed quite mediocre, to say the least.
Christine has written the majority of Fleetwood Mac's hit singles, but at their core, most of them have no more depth than "silly love songs."
But that doesn't stop me from being entertained by their music, nor does it sour my opinion of their contributions to the band.

It's obvious that I'm a Stevie fan... I am also a major Lindsey fan, and a major Christine fan... but most of all, i'm a FLEETWOOD MAC fan.
I subscribe to the theory that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

You put the three of them together, and their styles compliment each other beautifully. The amount of Fleetwood Mac gems far outweighs the clunkers. And even their lesser songs are usually more enjoyable than other band's biggest accomplishments.

Yes, Stevie "only" writes and sings, but I don't see why that implies she is the least important member of the band.
Nor do I see why finding enjoyment in each one of her songs implies that someone is blind to her limitations.

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but when you love something or someone, it doesn't mean that you're blind to their faults... it's merely that their faults are a part of them, and therefore you can love those as well.

And I think that's where these arguments come in: There are people who love the band, warts and all, and find it engaging to discuss all aspects of their music and personalities, including the negatives.... And there are other people here who also love the band, and are cognizant of the negatives, but prefer to focus on the postives.
The "All Aspects" people can't understand why the other faction appears to be so blindly loyal... while the "Focus On The Positive" folks can't understand why the others seem to only discuss what's wrong with the band, and not what's right.

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.

Johnny Stew

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 01:54 PM

Funny how no one's touching the "crappy leftover" statement. Because it's true!

Johnny Stew

08-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Could be that.... or it could be that no one wants to get into yet another argument with you over something that is entirely subjective.
:D

Johnny Stew

Bella Figura

08-12-2002, 02:04 PM

and the ref call "foul", free rim shots for Stevie....

she is the greatest musician to ever play music since Mozart
she is the most talented poet since Elizabeth Barret Browning
she is the most beautiful woman since Helen of Troy
she is the most popular 20th century icon since the Beatles and Elvis Presley put together
she is the priestess, she is the reason birds sing in the morning and crickets chirp at night
she is the goddess, she is the reason the sun shines in the morning and the moon beams at night
she is the reason i wear my platform boots proudly and you know what Nancy Sinatra has to say about boots...

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Could be that.... or it could be that no one wants to get into yet another argument with you over something that is entirely subjective.
:D

Johnny Stew

Come on, Johnny, now you're just trying to hurt me.

Gypsy-Rhiannon

08-12-2002, 02:10 PM

Well they say the truth hurts

Pip

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
Well they say the truth hurts

Pip

Which is why all the Stevie fans on this board are whining?

Ouch!

Street Angel

08-12-2002, 02:21 PM

I don´t see the need to post a "I defend Stevie with teeth and claws, because she´s perfect"-kind of post. But one thing that came to my mind when I read the posts was...

I can´t remember reading anywhere that artists like Peter Gabriel, Joni Mitchell or Lou Reed are highly regarded because of their perfection on any instruments. What they are acknowledged for is their talent in songwriting. If anyone wants to rank Stevie next to the SONGWRITING talents of the artists mentioned above, is of course anyone´s personal choice.

I think Stevie´s problem has often been the fact that unlike some other artists she involuntarily tends to distract people from looking at her work and make them concentrate on the "airy fairy"/ "black shawl"/ "priestess"/ "gypsy" or whatever aspect of her visual appearance instead.

Street Angel

08-12-2002, 02:25 PM

AAH! Wrong thread... I somehow can´t get it moved over to the "Talents" thread... sorry! :)

blinker12

08-12-2002, 02:27 PM

Could be that.... or it could be that no one wants to get into yet another argument with you over something that is entirely subjective.

Well put, Johnny.
I already said most of what I had to contribute to this topic over on the "most talented member" thread. I acknowledge that Stevie had a down period (1985-1993 IMO), but: a) everyone has down periods in life; and b) I think she's on the other side of it now.
Really, her creative dip lasted a shorter amount of time than it has taken Lindsey to put together a single album's worth of new solo material (10 years and counting). Stevie releases more material than does Lindsey, so she exposes herself to more scrutiny.
That's not a judgement call; I love them both to bits. But let's put things in perspective.

Johnny Stew

08-12-2002, 02:35 PM

*sighs*
Before I even post this, I'm already ashamed of myself... because I know the difference between a healthy dialogue, and something that is quite simply meant to be bating.
And typically I'm smart enough to avoid being dragged into the latter.
But, alas, here I go anyway....

Anytime someone makes sweeping generalizations... such as a song being "crappy"... with no valid argument to back that up, they should expect a rebuttal.
Calling something "crappy" is an opinion, and leaves itself open to be argued, or ignored.

Also to write off any discussion as "whining"... implies that other people's opinions are childish and inconsequential.
Which is another statement in which I can see nothing constructive.

At this point in the game, one must wonder why someone would make such comments.
Obviously some kind of reaction was being sought, and I doubt the intentions were merely to engage discussion.

I enjoy healthy debates... when they can be conducted as adults.
But anything less, and I bore very quickly... and tend to lend very little credence to the point of view being stated.

Johnny Stew

Bella Figura

08-12-2002, 02:57 PM

yes, Johnny Stew, I could hear your sigh right thru my speakers and you are so right on the money...when reason and humor try to lift an interesting discussion to it's rightful healthy level, all that is needed is one small inciteful comment to bring it all down once more...

and finally there is only one last recourse...

"Bored now" Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Street Angel
AAH! Wrong thread... I somehow can´t get it moved over to the "Talents" thread... sorry! :)

Do post there. I think we can break 100!

AliP

08-12-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca

AAHHHHH!!!! Therein the rub. When the band was acting like a band, they could truly be appreciated as a group.

Thanks for the insight Carne. Once again, I have no problem with others opinions. And that is exactly what yours is an opinion - too bad it seems like an opinion that is forced on others. I'll say it again, I appreciate the group as a whole. And just because you don't appreciate ANY of Stevie's contributions that's fine. But don't try to imply that's the way we all SHOULD feel.

I think Johnny Stew said it best
.
<B>The "All Aspects" people can't understand why the other faction appears to be so blindly loyal... while the "Focus On The Positive" folks can't understand why the others seem to only discuss what's wrong with the band, and not what's right. </B>

I guess I just don't understand all the negativity that's all. I focus on the positives of the band and try to keep away from the negatives. It's too bad we all can't do that.

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
*sighs*
Anytime someone makes sweeping generalizations... such as a song being "crappy"... with no valid argument to back that up, they should expect a rebuttal.
Calling something "crappy" is an opinion, and leaves itself open to be argued, or ignored.

Also to write off any discussion as "whining"... implies that other people's opinions are childish and inconsequential.
Which is another statement in which I can see nothing constructive.

Johnny Stew

Oh, gee, here we go. Is the "whining" comment going to get me another point? Hey, how many points do I get anyway? Johnny, I can't believe you took that seriously. It was obviously written in jest. So if I but one of these ;) next to the remark, it would make it OK?

I simply don't get it. People are way too sensitive on this board. You try to have a serious discussion, and people get on you for saying this in that way about a band member. You make a joke, somebody gets offended. Get real, folks.

As for the use of "crappy," it was admittedly done to elicit a response. But isn't that what we're doing? Exchanging comments. I keep reading about people get on here to make statements that will elicit a response as if that's bad thing. I though this was a discussion board.

Like it or not, all Stevie Nicks has given to Fleetwood Mac since 1982 is leftovers, most of which weren't very good. And that is all I was saying.

I was being playful, Johnny, and you took me way too seriously. Forgive me for assuming you had a sense of humor.

CarneVaca

08-12-2002, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by AliP

And just because you don't appreciate ANY of Stevie's contributions that's fine. But don't try to imply that's the way we all SHOULD feel.

Not true. Scroll back to see where I praised Stevie for having written some great songs. (It might be in another thread.) Also, I've credited her for being a survivor. It's a funny thing: I can actually see people in multidimensional terms, which is why I have praised and criticized her.

jwd

08-12-2002, 04:39 PM

Posted be CarneVaca:Folks, calm down!

I think what happens here is that the Stevie fans feel slighted that she gets fewer songs on albums though she's had the most popularity

Gee I don't feel slighted at all. Actually I think that all the members get equal TIME on an album, which is the way it should be. I might feel a bit slighted though if my favorite band member's songs weren't being released as singles equally.

Joe

EnchantedStorms

08-12-2002, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Street Angel
I don´t see the need to post a "I defend Stevie with teeth and claws, because she´s perfect"-kind of post. But one thing that came to my mind when I read the posts was...

I can´t remember reading anywhere that artists like Peter Gabriel, Joni Mitchell or Lou Reed are highly regarded because of their perfection on any instruments. What they are acknowledged for is their talent in songwriting. If anyone wants to rank Stevie next to the SONGWRITING talents of the artists mentioned above, is of course anyone´s personal choice.

Isn't that what Stevie, herself, has said many, many times? That she ONLY wants to be remembered for being a great SONGWRITER? Not for being a great piano player or a great guitar player. Well... congradulations, Stevie...I think you've made it. (Even if you cannot stand her music, if you just read her words, you have to admit, the woman can write some pretty great stuff.)

Bella Figura....wonderful post. And the same goes for Johnny Stew, I have actually looked forward to reading them. You both have made excellent points.

Okay...I'm going back into hiding now. I normally don't post on these long "discussion" type threads....just because I simply don't have the time.

And yes....as much as I love Stevie...I do believe that the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts".
~~Angela~~:wavey:

bjk3047

08-12-2002, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by jwd

Gee I don't feel slighted at all. Actually I think that all the members get equal TIME on an album, which is the way it should be. I might feel a bit slighted though if my favorite band member's songs weren't being released as singles equally.

Joe

Well now, that's a whole 'nother pot of gold. Singles are not picked on a democracy based system. The label puts out singles that they think will make the album sell. They don't give a flying f*** as to who sings the song. If Bob the talking baby sang the song and it meant more sales than a kick-ass song, Bob wins. It's just the sad truth.
-Brian

jwd

08-13-2002, 04:02 PM

Posted by bjk3047:Well now, that's a whole 'nother pot of gold. Singles are not picked on a democracy based system. The label puts out singles that they think will make the album sell. They don't give a flying f*** as to who sings the song. If Bob the talking baby sang the song and it meant more sales than a kick-ass song, Bob wins. It's just the sad truth.

True...they are released to promote and sell an album. Therefore the songs that are released are typically the stronger songs that do appeal to a larger audience. More so than not, songs that are released would be classified as "kick ass" songs. And hey if it puts money in my pocket, lets my band keep touring and recording.....then thank you Christine and Stevie for writing most of the hit singles and of course to Lindsey for adding the "magic" with the stellar rhythm section of John and Mick added in.

P.S. I never felt slighted AT ALL......REALLY! ;)

Joe

chiliD

08-13-2002, 06:02 PM

Now wait...

Chris' singles:

Over My Head
Say You Love Me
Don't Stop
You Make Loving Fun
Think About Me
Hold Me
Little Lies
Everywhere

Stevie's singles:
Rhiannon
Dreams
Sara
Fireflies
Gypsy
Seven Wonders
Silver Springs

Lindsey's singles:
Go Your Own Way
Tusk
Big Love
Family Man

...ok....never mind.

(I wonder why it SEEMS that Lindsey had more? Could it be that his had more IMPACT than Stevie's? It's a given that all of Christine's were memorable. Other than "Dreams", "Gypsy" & "Silver Springs", the rest seem kind of inconsequential...not exactly the word I want to use, but I can't think of the exact word that fits what I'm trying to get at... to "GYOW", "Tusk" & "Big Love". Does anyone else have an idea of what I'm trying to get at, here? Absolutely NOT Stevie bashing in the least, but for some reason those three Lindsey singles seem to outweigh all the other Stevie singles besides the three I mentioned above.)

Hawkeye

08-13-2002, 06:12 PM

what about RHIANNON. AND you forgot about Landslide and sisters of the Moon.

jmn3

08-13-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Hawkeye
what about RHIANNON. AND you forgot about Landslide and sisters of the Moon.

I'll never get why SOTM only charted at # 86 or something.

I was just being born at the time...so I don't have a good memory of it being out...but maybe people were sick of Stevie's 'witchy-fairy' crap at that point. (Rhiannon, GDW, SOTM, Straight Back...)

Ironically though...if I had to pick 4 of her songs that were my favorites...those would probably be the four.

And on a side note...SOTM is amazing live!

CarneVaca

08-14-2002, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by chiliD
Now wait...
(I wonder why it SEEMS that Lindsey had more? Could it be that his had more IMPACT than Stevie's? It's a given that all of Christine's were memorable. Other than "Dreams", "Gypsy" & "Silver Springs", the rest seem kind of inconsequential...not exactly the word I want to use, but I can't think of the exact word that fits what I'm trying to get at... to "GYOW", "Tusk" & "Big Love". Does anyone else have an idea of what I'm trying to get at, here? )

I absolutely know what you mean. Before I got sick of classic rock stations, not only would I hear Go Your Own Way more than any other Fleetwood Mac song, but Lindsey's version of Oh Well was a common staple. The Chain (penned by all members) and Monday Morning were also played frequently, though probably not as much as Don't Stop, Rhiannon and Dreams. You Make Loving Fun was also played very often.

The Tower

08-15-2002, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca

Like it or not, all Stevie Nicks has given to Fleetwood Mac since 1982 is leftovers, most of which weren't very good. And that is all I was saying.

I have read and heard in numerous interviews from different sources within the band that, for the most part, Stevie usually offers up a large number of demos to the rest of the band and the band picks which songs will make it on the album. This has been stated fairly consistently over the last 20+ years.

For instance, Stevie has been quoted as saying that she offered 17 demos to Lindsey for him (as producer) to select for the upcoming album.

Also, on Tango in the Night, Fleetwood Mac as a band selected "When I See You Again" for inclusion on the album instead of "What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done for You?"

So the idea of Stevie controlling the content of FM albums isn't all it's cracked up to be. If any fans out there think that Stevie's FM output ain't so hot, then the band is at the very least partly responsible, if not more so. Granted, it may be possible that most or all of Stevie's material at the time was sub-par- however, I for one think that "Juliet" is one of Stevie's better efforts. I think that "Juliet" should have definitely been used in place of any one of the songs of Stevie's that made it onto Tango.

Who knows what other material Stevie offered during those sessions, and why it wasn't selected? "Smile at You", "The Dealer", "If You Were My Love" are all great demos that have been offered numerous times to FM over the years and been rejected for one reason or another.

This idea that artists have complete control over what gets out to the public is pretty much untrue. They have a voice, and when the going gets tough they can stand behind a song and say "This is going on the album no matter what!" But even that level of commitment still doesn't guarantee a song will make it to an album.

The Other Side of the Mirror was controlled by Rupert Hine. Behind the Mask was a restart of sorts, with FOUR songwriters and vocalists. Street Angel was created in a Klonopin haze. One can't really make Stevie 100% responsible for her output during those times. And besides, I for one think that some great music DID come out of those years:

Juliet
Ooh My Love
Ghosts
Desert Angel
Freedom
The Second Time
Love is Like a River
Jane

sulamith

08-15-2002, 01:28 PM

Well said, Tower!

Check out this quote from Stevie from Bam magazine 10/23/87.
"In the studio, if Lindsey said the wall was gray, I would be absolutely sure it was pink. In oreder to get one of my songs on a record, I would have to say, OK, the wall is gray, Lindsey. Otherwise, it was the back of the bus. Now, this has nothing to do with the other members of Fleetwood Mac, who from the beginning, have always been lovely to me, have always known how important my songs were to me, whereas with Lindsey, he would rather I just stayed at home doing laundry. we are talking about a man who was in love with a woman, and would just as soon she faded out and just been his old lady or wife. Period."

Now my point with this is, the bitterness between S&L during those years played a big part, too. Stevie has talked about offering songs and Lindsey saying "Forget it! Not that one." So, it seems he would reject songs based on his like or dislike of the emotional content. If it was about a particular sensitve area of their relationship, it got vetoed. Even he said he reached a point where he didn't want arrange for her because his heart just wasn't in it anymore. He even said he hated to admit that, and you can tell he feels bad about it now.

I feel they are both at their best together. They balance and compliment each other so well. They have both had career highs and lows, but it seems Lindsey had the upper hand during the Tango era. Stevie was in a real bad emotional place, and her creativity did reflect that, but him not wanting to help her put out the best music she could at that time is really the equivalent of turning the knife a little, IMHO.

They were both playing emotional hardball, and they both got hurt real bad.

CarneVaca

08-15-2002, 01:42 PM

Tower, no one has said artists "have complete control" of album content or that Stevie had control over content in FM albums. To be sure, few artists have total control. I would imagine folks like Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen don't have to justify to the labels why they chose the content they did. Having said that, I should point out that Stevie's use of FM as a dumping place for her solo leftovers in the 1980s is not a new notion. This was widely discussed back then. I respect your choices of 80s songs you like; I just don't happen to like those selections. And while she may have given FM more than three songs for Mirage and Tango respectively, the fact remains that with the exception of Gypsy, they were very low-quality stuff.

As for Sulasmith's comments, there's no doubt that Lindsey made life difficult for Stevie in the studio. But reading her comments, you get the sense she wants to be perceived as this little angel that had no choice in the matter. Meanwhile, Lindsey was pretty much one guy against the rest of the band, so I'm sure she wasn't as defenseless as she may want us to believe.

sulamith

08-15-2002, 01:56 PM

No, Lindsey wasn't one guy against the rest of the band. Production responsibilites had pretty much been handed over to him by the other band members, so alot of things were his call. Mick has said so, and said it was that way because Lindsey has a good ear for production.

Maybe the songs she submitted were crap, so who knows, maybe his producer's ears didn't think they were good. But the ones we do know about, Juliet, for instance which Lindsey even arranged, Smile at You, Ooh My Love, and Planets, along with many others are good songs.

Just don't forget this is the same guy who wrote the song this very forum was named after, telling her "You're never gonna make it, baby".
As much as I love Lindsey, it is pretty evident part of him didn't want her to make it, so he decided to take away his support, which as a BANDMATE he owed to her, forget any past romantic entanglements. As a professional musician he did owe it to her as a colleage to make all of the music as good as possible. He did it with Gypsy and look what beautiful thing they created.

I know Stevie was a real handful during those years, but the main point was she was not offering leftovers. She was using what wasn't rejected, mainly on Tango.
Tusk was an emotional low point for him, Tango was for her.

The Tower

08-15-2002, 02:03 PM

CarneVaca:

Well, I think you're missing my point.

I'm sure that very few FM fans actually know what songs Stevie offered FM during those periods. There could have been many demos offered that were better than what was selected. Who knows what was discarded because of hard feelings, etc.?

The fact that "Gypsy" didn't go on Bella Donna shows how much Stevie DOESN'T have control over what goes on her albums. I'm guessing its exclusion was due to Jimmy Iovine's decision making, or possibly the people behind Modern Records.

One only has to look at the struggle between "I Don't Wanna Know" and "Silver Springs" to see the difficulty over artistic control.

In any case, I think the basis of this debate is this: there are two camps- one group thinks that Stevie's "classic" material and vocals (White Album, Rumours, Tusk, Bella Donna) are superior to her "low period" material (Rock A Little, The Other Side of the Mirror, Behind the Mask, Street Angel)- the other group sees each album as a snapshot of the time in question and can find gems throughout her entire career.

It really IS a matter of each fans taste. I don't think there are any absolutes such as "And while she may have given FM more than three songs for Mirage and Tango respectively, the fact remains that with the exception of Gypsy, they were very low-quality stuff." That statement is not a "fact", it is an opinion.

I can understand why you don't like the material I listed. That's okay- not all of Stevie's stuff is for everyone. I just don't think her "low period" is quite as bad as you describe it. No biggie- just two differing opinions.

CarneVaca

08-15-2002, 02:06 PM

Sulasmith, you're right. They both succumbed to personal enmities and recriminations, which may well have affected song choice. Both are probably to blame equally, but I was reacting to her comments, which were quite nasty and probably not-altogether true. As for Planets, Juliet and the others you mentioned having been rejected, that doesn't change my opinion of the songs. I don't particularly like them. Although, I'll admit Juliet is probably better than Welcome to the Room and When I See You again. But then we're talking differing levels of mediocrity, as far I'm concerned.

sulamith

08-15-2002, 02:20 PM

Tower, I like your way of putting it, as far as being able to find gems throughout her career. When I listen to Stevie, it is always in context to what era she was in, so I guess I fall into that camp.

Carne, Yes, Stevie definitely had snotty things to say about Lindsey from 87 - 90, and yes she is prone to making mountains out of mole hills, I will agree!

I can also see your point about different levels of mediocrity. Stevie is really not for everyone, and no one can force a person to like something they don't. Admittedly, When I See you Again is not a fav of mine at all.
I will applaud you for having at least listened to her solo stuff, so at least you are able to comment on songs such as Juliet and Planets. There are some folks who can't debate intelligently because they have only listened to her FM work.

Hey, I'm cool with it!

CarneVaca

08-15-2002, 02:52 PM

It's interesting to ready Tower's and Sulasmith's comments on listening to Stevie's stuff in the context of the times. It took me quite a while to come to terms with the fact that I did not like Rock a Little and Other Side of the Mirror. I listened, listened again and re-listened. I persuaded myself this was good stuff. Then I'd go back to the earlier music, and inevitably enjoy that far more. Already when Tango came out I couldn't deny it to myself: I don't like Stevie's stuff anymore, but I love the rest of the album. Yet I dutifully bought Mirror and tried very hard to like it. I even bought Street Angel, and probably listened to it five or six times.

So I really can't listen in the context of the times. As far as the quality, my opinions on that are obviously subjective. But there are objective ways of looking at whether a piece of music is good or bad. If you think about it, a lot of people like bad music, judging from the recent appeal of the likes of Spitney Beers and the Backscratch Toys.

The Tower

08-15-2002, 03:22 PM

I still think most of Rock A Little stinks. "If I Were You", "Some Become Strangers", "Sister Honey", "Imperial Hotel", "The Nightmare" (<--- her worst song EVER in my opinion), are all pretty bad.

Tango in the Night is my least favorite FM album (Rumours era). I bought the album when it first came out in '87. I did NOT like it. After listening for awhile, I kinda got into the groove of the album. A week or so ago I pulled the CD out of the mothballs and listened to it. It doesn't hold up.

So.... tastes change, music changes, artists change- their voices change, etc., etc....

Hell, I even bought Time.... :laugh:

sulamith

08-15-2002, 04:24 PM

You bought Time?

Even I"M not THAT hardcore!
LOL!!!

Hawkeye

08-15-2002, 04:41 PM

Time's not THAT hardcore. It has some of Chris's best stuff. Sooner or Later is FANTASTIC. I definitly would tke time over behind the mask. I'm definitly in that group of people you mentioned Tower. I can't get ENOUGH of Bella Donna, wild heart, her tusk, rumours and white album stuff but it's all mediocre on Rock a little thru the awful BTM. The second time is NOT A SONG it's toxic waste. But i DO actually really like street angel, and TISl of course to me is a great comeback. I Love it. and i'd like to add that every stevie soundract song is great. And Gold and Braid isn't on any album that's in a class of it's own.

The Tower

08-15-2002, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Hawkeye

The second time is NOT A SONG it's toxic waste.

and i'd like to add that every stevie soundract song is great.

And Gold and Braid isn't on any album that's in a class of it's own.

Hmmm... that's odd, Hawkeye- I really love "The Second Time". I think it's very folky and wistful.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the soundtrack songs and, especially, "Gold and Braid". That song kicks ASS- and yet, it was left off of Bella Donna for whatever reason....

Les

08-15-2002, 05:12 PM

Just don't forget this is the same guy who wrote the song this very forum was named after, telling her "You're never gonna make it, baby".

It's interesting to me that the assumption is made that all of this Tusk stuff was about Stevie. I know several people feel that way, but I don't view Tusk as Lindsey's big anti-Stevie statement. I don't view it at all as his emotional low point. In fact, judging from the way he lights up and talks about how exciting the whole process was, I think Tusk was his emotional high point.

Lindsey was surely venting all kinds of feelings on Tusk, but I don't actually see a lot of it necessarily having to do directly or at all with Stevie. The only song on Tusk that Lindsey has ever confirmed might even be a little bit about Stevie is "That's Enough for Me." It certainly doesn't mean other songs didn't also touch on her, but I think Lindsey was making a different kind of statement than just commenting on his ex anymore. A lot of his music was very intentionally raw and I think just stylistically speaking, that begs for a lyric to match. His songs were a concerted effort to veer from the mature, slick, shininess of "adult rock" that many began to mean in a derogatory way when discussing FM. The tone is the exhuberant venting of frustrations over the box he felt the music industry wanted to put them in.

"The Ledge" in particular is one that is so off-the-wall that I think it could apply to any number of things. Lindsey's lyrical style is one where he seems to try to create an emotional atmosphere through the use of specific visual images and the tone of his voice. Those, along with the music, are indicators of how the song feels, without necessarily providing you with a coherent story about why it feels that way. Sometimes it's the form that tells the story as much as any specific words. That's especially true of his faster Tusk songs. Each is just a flash of emotion that has to make the impression very quickly and then it's gone just as quickly - because that's often how emotions flash through your head.

That one particular line - "you're never gonna make it baby" - is one that bears some resemblance to the notion the swim coach planted in his mind - "you're nothing; you'll always be nothing." It's a challenge that probably wasn't ever far from Lindsey's head as he dealt with his own insecurities while trying to forge new courses, knowing that what he was doing was going to shock some people. Certainly he has written songs to other people, but I feel that a lot of Lindsey's song aren't about explaining a point to other people. They're about the raw internal thoughts flying through his head. I actually think a lot of what people view as his invective directed at Stevie is the hard and critical light in which he viewed himself, and his total commitment to the creative direction and stylistic choices he made for Tusk.

David

08-15-2002, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by The Tower
Who knows what other material Stevie offered during those sessions, and why it wasn't selected? "Smile at You", "The Dealer", "If You Were My Love" are all great demos that have been offered numerous times to FM over the years and been rejected for one reason or another.
Christine once said (I think in the "Tango in the Night" listening party on a Florida radio station) that the band rejected relatively few of her songs over the years, whereas Stevie's songs have been rejected in much higher numbers. It might be that way because Christine tended to write only the number of songs needed for an album, but Stevie always brought in many more songs than were needed. In other words, it could have been just a numbers game.

I believe some personal acrimony was responsible for some of the rejected Stevie Nicks songs over the years, but probably not to the degree others think it was. I think that, in general, if the band thought the song would make a good track, & if Stevie was available to put a good vocal on it, the song would have been given a chance. Common sense makes me think that the rejection of a song for personal reasons would have to occur before the band recorded it, not after, which is why I never believed that "Silver Springs" was dumped for personal reasons. That song was completed & was ready to go, & was only dumped after it was ready to go. If a certain member of the band was pissy about "Silver Springs," he wouldn't have put all that work (his & the engineers' & the band members') into it just to dump it afterward. He'd have vetoed the idea to record it in the beginning. But the fact is that he (& all the others) created a beautiful track out of it; there's a lot of love on that track, from everyone. Lindsey says on the Rumours DVD that some of his most beautiful guitar work ever is on that track, so of course he'd have wanted that song released -- & it was released ... but the only room for it was the flip side of the 45 at the time.

In the same context, I have a hunch that some of Stevie's Fleetwood Mac rejects, like "Juliet" or "What Has Rock & Roll Ever Done For You" or "If You Were My Love," might have been rejected for technical rather than personal reasons. Sometimes the musicians work on something for days or weeks & it just doesn't come together: the ideas aren't flowing, the keyboardist is stuck for an appropriate arrangement, the guitarist doesn't have a good grasp on what sort of mood he's going for, the drummer can't get the cymbal sound he wants. It's just not working musically, & nobody's terrifically happy with the rough tracks -- maybe they're boring or they don't go anywhere or they just sound dumb. For studio moles like Fleetwood Mac, I'm sure that probably happened a lot.

tommer

08-15-2002, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Hawkeye
The second time is NOT A SONG it's toxic waste...
Enter Tango in the Night. 3 PATHETIC songs...
Even the much loved Seven Wonders sucked. and now even her live performances are horrible...
her freaking Behind the Mask songs, and crappy voice. The Second time was not a song it was something someone thwer up...
dude, you never cease to amaze me...
you DO know that posting wise remarks is better than posting ignorant ones, right?...:confused:

sulamith

08-15-2002, 05:49 PM

Les, I understand what you are saying about Lindsey's directions and even about him directing alot of his words to his own self, but really, even Christine called Tusk the "bitch at Stevie" album, and as far as his emotional lowpoint, wasn't that the Tour during which he walked over and kicked Stevie on stage in New Zealand? He seems pretty overstimulated and and on the verge of coming unglued in alot of the footage, shaking all over and gesturing wildly.
He was strung out and emotionally raw, and even though I buy all the stuff about him trying to be pared down and anti-pop, I will always believe he was dealing with Stevie with most of that verbal bomb-tossing he was doing during that time.
Even he has said he couldn't get over her, and even though alot of folks don't believe that, I do, and that's the way I'll stay. There are also alot of poeple who DO believe it (WINK, WINK)!
I feel that was his motivation for alot of his actions.
I don't expect to change anyone's opinions, and I won't change mine, but I'll agree to disagree on it, and I love discussing it!

Les

08-15-2002, 06:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sulamith
Les, I understand what you are saying about Lindsey's directions and even about him directing alot of his words to his own self, but really, even Christine called Tusk the "bitch at Stevie" album..

Hi ,

Christine may have, but I don't think she liked several of Lindsey's "Tusk" songs until years later, so I don't actually imagine that she put a lot of thought into what he was trying to do. Neither Stevie nor Chris were shy about saying they didn't understand or even especially like some of his material.

In that same vein -- and touching on some earlier points in this thread -- that they would express such an opinion isn't something that I think proves they wanted him to fail. But if Lindsey were to reject a Stevie song for an album or say something in public about not liking one of her songs, it seems to be regarded, by some, as an act of great cruelty and a sign that he wanted her to go down the drain. He had mixed feelings from time to time for sure, but I don't think that one can, without a doubt, point to his Tusk songs as proof of bloodlust. What if sometimes he just didn't like her songs, no matter what they were about?

...and as far as his emotional lowpoint, wasn't that the Tour during which he walked over and kicked Stevie on stage in New Zealand?

The tour was a different thing than the making of the album. By the time they were on tour, Lindsey was having fingers pointed at him telling him the album's "failure" was all on him. Certainly heavy drinking and hard feelings don't mix well for anyone. But Lindsey speaks, to this day, of the making of Tusk as his ultimate high point in the band.

He seems pretty overstimulated and and on the verge of coming unglued in alot of the footage, shaking all over and gesturing wildly.

There again, I see some of that as an extension of the statement of Tusk generally. His stage presence, his movements on that whole tour were very much about embodying those songs, right down to the way he dressed, the eyeshadow, etc. Plus, I think even today, to a slightly lesser degree, Lindsey is still a spaz on stage. ;)

I will always believe he was dealing with Stevie with most of that verbal bomb-tossing he was doing during that time.

Fair enough. I think I just see a lot of people, and I'm not saying you're one of them, but I've seen a lot of people dismiss Lindsey's Tusk material, not because they don't like the sound, but because they think it's "mean to Stevie." All I'm trying to say is that seeing those songs as "mean to Stevie" isn't the only way to view why he created them the way he did. It's good to remember that he did a few things in the band because they were important ambitions of his own that Stevie had nothing to do with.

Even he has said he couldn't get over her, and even though alot of folks don't believe that, I do, and that's the way I'll stay. There are also alot of poeple who DO believe it (WINK, WINK)!

Hehe. You're certainly right there. I don't believe that and won't try to change the minds of those who do. I didn't really think that was playing a big part in this discussion, but maybe I was naive in that belief. ;)

The Tower

08-15-2002, 07:18 PM

I thought Lindsey was much more "mean" to Stevie with the Rumours material than with Tusk.

With the exception of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" and "Not That Funny", I think Lindsey's Tusk material is the best he has ever done- though it probably ties with Out of the Cradle's material. "Save Me a Place" and "Walk a Thin Line" are INCREDIBLE!

Hawkeye

08-16-2002, 02:11 AM

WHY did you just pick THOSE quptes. I said PLENTY of NICE thing about the great stevie. But you concentrated on the negative. i wanted to show my flexibility. I LOVE most of the stuff, but the quoted you pulled up are true too. It was a bad time in her life.

tommer

08-16-2002, 05:57 AM

simply because those quotes were the CORE of all the 'strange' ideas you presented, i could have picked the 'Street Angel was going back to form' remark too.
i strongly believe that stevie's Tango tracks are PURE NICKS CLASSICS. Welcome To The Room...Sara & When I See You Again are two of her biggest masterpieces, those were the 2 songs that made me interested in stevie's art.
her voice on Behind The Mask was perfectly fine, i think her songs there are the album's saviors, have another listen to Love Is Dangerous and get the point.
When I See You Again ain't exactly her best track ever (and very badly mixed i must say) but it's far from being one of her worst songs, and is NOT 'toxic waste' by any means and not 'something someone threw up', and while we're on the subject, barfing is exactly what your posts made me wanna do.

Sorceress

08-16-2002, 08:09 AM

[i]I've seen a lot of people dismiss Lindsey's Tusk material, not because they don't like the sound, but because they think it's "mean to Stevie." All I'm trying to say is that seeing those songs as "mean to Stevie" isn't the only way to view why he created them the way he did. It's good to remember that he did a few things in the band because they were important ambitions of his own that Stevie had nothing to do with.

I also continue to believe that there's plenty of nastiness in Lindsey's Tusk lyrics directed at Stevie, AND I also love the sound of his Tusk work!
People have been talking about listening to Stevie's solo stuff with the context of the era of the album in mind. In that same vein, I think Tusk is amazing emotional portrait of where each of the members were during that era. I don't mean to detract from the musical merit of the album, but the pain and anger in many of Lindsey's and Stevie's songs is so moving.

CarneVaca

08-16-2002, 08:13 AM

Hmmm... is it possible that I can stay out of the line of fire for a while? I see hostilities flaring up elsewhere. Well, I need the break.

Les, you have made great points. I salute you. I think the "Lindsey was too mean to Stevie" notion through the years has crossed the boundaries of fairness. While he may have been more outspoken through his words and actions about the hostility between them, I believe that Stevie was far meaner. She probably tortured him psychologically in a major way. Of course, I don't excuse his physical actions.

And I'm probably going to get creamed for this, but here's what I think: When Lindsey talks these days, you can see that he has usually put a lot of thought into what he says and that is pretty sincere. He seems genuinely embarrassed and contrite about some of his past actions. However, when Stevie talks, which is a lot more often, no matter how hard she has worked at creating this motherly persona of loving everyone and everything, she still lets out enough nastiness to show what she really is about. I can't specifically recall any comments, but in the VH1 shows of recent years, whenever she talks about the old days you sense a real bitterness and anti-Lindsey vibe. She strikes me as a bitter person, while Lindsey comes across to me as a guy who realizes he's pulled some boners but has tried very hard to grow up, though not entirely successfully.

Sorceress

08-16-2002, 08:49 AM

...whenever she talks about the old days you sense a real bitterness and anti-Lindsey vibe. She strikes me as a bitter person, while Lindsey comes across to me as a guy who realizes he's pulled some boners but has tried very hard to grow up, though not entirely successfully.

Here's a different way of looking at it: I read what you see as bitterness as regret mixed with a good dose of drama and self-centeredness. I don't think that means she's being anti-Lindsey. She does seem to have some unfinished business with him though. And while the overwhelming vibe Lindsey gives off is that he is regretful, he seems to have his own issues to work through--Stevie-related or not, I don't know.
At any rate, our interpretations are our own and will continue to be.

sulamith

08-16-2002, 09:03 AM

Ok, Carne, I think I can roll up my sleeves and discuss this with you without any creaminess, although I may get slayed in the process, but here goes..........

I do agree that Lindsey has grown trmendously, and I have become a bigger fan of his in the process. As a young high school and college girl in the late seventies and early eighties I was not really a fan of Lindsey's at the time because i was all caught up in the whole Stevie persona. She was, and is, very appealing to young females, spreaking frm that point of view. I recall hearing about some of the stuff, like the infamous kicking incident, and seeing Linds on the Tusk tour, and even though I thought he was a cutie-pa-tootie, I thought his attitude stank. It was amplified when he left in 87, and not much was changed for me by OOTC, but that did cause me to respect him more as a musician. Now, I stayed that way, really until the Dance. Something in his eyes was so much softer, but still intense. I think you are right about him realizing his mistakes. Read my sig line, for instance. He gave alot of interviews during that time expressing sentiments that seemed he was sorry and taking responsibilty for his actions during the hating years. And, he's still a cutie-pa-tootie, to boot, so.... what's not to love?

Now, on to Stevie. This one is alot tougher to explain. I will agree that Stevie still says some pretty biting things these days. On Lindsey's BTM, she said things that.....how shall I put this....sort of alluded that Lindsey's current situation wasn't pure, and that hers and his was. She said, "I loved him before he was rich and famous, before the money. I loved him for all the right reasons." Then there was that comment about, "he's in love with his kids...." Now I realize VH1 can edit those things any way they want, and maybe they were just trying to play up the whole S&L drama, I don't know, but I do feel that Stevie is unhappy with her life these days. I know it is hard for her to see Lindsey married with children. That has helped him grow up alot, even she said so, and in her InStyle interview earlier this year, she said alot about having no regrets about never marrying and having children, and how she can't do both, be a rock star and be in a relationship. Because she never has had children, she said her songwriting has stayed, in a way, like that of a young girl, so it sounded like even SHE was admitting she hasn't matured beyond a certian point. I just think that where the rubber meets the road Stevie IS lonely, and she has said so much that she's not, that now she can't recant it. There's no back-pedaling at this point, because she is now too old to have children, so she says these things because she is trying to convince herself it really IS ok, because ar this point she has no choice. Music is her husband, you know....she made this bed, and she's gotta lay in it!
Now basic psychology will tell you people can only repress things for so long before little things start creeping out. God love her, she can't help it.
She does, however have a kind of quiet wisdom about her that has just come from living such an interesting life, full of many different experiences and struggles.
For me, it just makes me love her more!

chiliD

08-16-2002, 10:28 AM

and how she can't do both, be a rock star and be in a relationship.

It's worked for a lot of other rock stars. I just think Stevie is too cynical & immature to HAVE a relationship, period. Even if she'd spent the last 30 years waiting tables as Clementine's, she probably wouldn't have had a long-term relationship either. She just doesn't seem the type (from hearing the way she's talked about her relationships) to want to WORK at keeping a relationship going...as soon as there's the slightest bit of trouble, she ends the relationship.

sulamith

08-16-2002, 11:10 AM

Chili, Yes it has and is working for alot of people, and maybe seeing them making it work is pretty painful, but like I said, I think she feel she can't eat those words now.

Stevie and Lindsey are both well-known for their stubborness, hard-headedness, and overall inability to compromise on certain things.
Sometimes that's been an asset for them, sometimes a liability.
I just think that that's her story and she's gonna stick to it because she can't change it now anyway.

I was listening to this Eagles song "Victim of Love" which I think is about Stevie (and Lindsey, he's "that man"). I'm sure someone will tell me if they know it is not, but the part in it I love is

Victim of love, I see a broken heart
You got your stories to tell
Victim of love, It's such and easy part
And you know how to play it so well

Later on, he says

Victim of love, I see a broken heart
I could be wrong but I'm not
You're walking a wire of pain and desire
Looking for love in between

It sounds like 70's Stevie to me!
There's some other stuff in this song that I won't get into here, but even though I'm not a huge fan of Don, I have to give him credit for knowing the score.

I don't know that I would call her purely cynical and immature, but I do find it ironic that she has become a bit of a tragic and sad figure, just like she sang about when she was young and didn't have to end up this way.

Now, I'm not saying she has some terrible life, because she doesn't, but I think there is a part of her that s just incredibly broken about ending up alone. Now she feels she has to save face and talk about how wonderful everything is. I can hear little things in her comments that lead me to think she isn't particularly content with herself, that's all.

Oh, and Sorceress, I get that same "unfinshed business" vibe from them both as well.

Johnny Stew

08-16-2002, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by sulamith
On Lindsey's BTM, she said things that.....how shall I put this....sort of alluded that Lindsey's current situation wasn't pure, and that hers and his was.
See, I know that's how a lot of people took that comment, but that's not how I took it at all.

I really didn't see it as being directed at Kristen and/or Lindsey's relationship with Kristen.... it seemed to me that it was more directed at the women and relationships that came directly after Lindsey and Stevie broke up. The women Lindsey dated right after the band had hit it really big, and had a lot of wealth and fame. Which is, as many famous people have said, a period where you really don't know if your new friends and relationships like you for YOU, or for your fame.

Stevie tended to date men who were also famous, so I'm sure she was probably spared those particular feelings of insecurity... whereas the women Lindsey dated weren't famous. Carol Ann and Cheri, at least, both seem to have had aspirations of being famous, so there were probably times when Lindsey wondered if his girlfriends had the purest of motivations.

Also, and maybe this is the "Nicks Fan" in me coming out, but I don't really sense any cynicism when Stevie talks now.
Yes, it was definitely there in full-force during "The Klonopin Years," but now I think she just simply speaks very honestly about how she felt during the early years of her time in Fleetwood Mac.
One *can* be over something that happened in their life, while still being capable of talking about it, and conveying how it made them feel at the time.

And yes, there are a lot of other rock stars who can and have made romances work, but there are also a lot of others who haven't had that luck.

The Wilson sisters are a good example (especially since they're in Stevie's direct group of peers).
Ann Wilson hasn't had a long-term relationship since she and Mike Fisher broke up back in the 70s. While Nancy has been married to Cameron Crowe since 1982.

Even Christine, who *has* had a couple of long-term relationships, is single again... and arguably, her career hasn't been nearly as demanding as Stevie's.
Or, at the very least, her commitment to it hasn't been nearly as acute as Stevie's.

There seems to have been a time in her life, when marriage and motherhood really were things that Stevie hoped to have at some point... but to me, it seems like she has now made peace with not having those things. It also seems to me that she takes full responsibility for not having them.
She has said that she's basically an all or nothing person, and she wouldn't have been happy letting someone else raise her children. She has also said that motherhood would have probably been too distracting to her, to concentrate properly on her music.

She's never said that it *can't* be done, just that she doesn't think *she* could do it.

Wow, this thread definitely morphed into something completely different than I'm sure Christy ever intended!
*lol*

Johnny Stew

*** A little correction: Nancy Wilson and Cameron Crowe haven't been married since 1982... they were married in 1986.
They did, however, begin dating in 1982.***