From the moderator [Archive]

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 08:30 AM

Unfortunately some of the reactions on this board are pretty reflective of what's going on in the country (I realize a handful of people here post from outside the US). Essentially ignorant people who don't understand or appreciate the beauty and sanctity of a free exchange of ideas want to clamp down on some unpopular views. We see it among the corporations that are trying to run our lives and in our pansy-ass government as well.

That of course is in strict violation of the spirit that guided the folks who came up with concepts such as "freedom of speech." Even going back to pre-colonial days, there were folks back in England (and if you want to go back far enough, Greece) who argued in favor of a marketplace of ideas, in which opposing views would fight it out in public and the truth would emerge, whatever it may be.

Now we see the fascists who run these boards going down the track of censorship. It's nothing new here. This board became overly restrictive a few years back after some folks made some unpopular comments and got into cyber verbal conflicts. Having been the one you would probably consider the villain in the thread in question, I understand whom the insults already on this thread are being directed at. Let me make it clear: I don't care that you disapprove of the way I handled myself. The whole thing started after I made unpopular remarks about the band. Some little pissant who was obviously uninformed and thin-skinned decided to engage me in volley of words until she gave up and, presumably, went to complain to the Ledge fascists in charge. Mind you, until this person chose to engage me, I had had what I considered interesting discussions with others on the board. Some people agreed with my positions and some disagreed. Only one person chose to continue to combat me in this way. The thread speaks for itself.

Some people will say I was disrespectful and what have you. Yet I never directly engaged in name-calling while some of my remarks were admittedly less-than-courteous. Hey, that's the breaks. Do people always adress you in precisely the way you would want to be addressed? If you engage in a discussion, you must be mature enough to understand that someone may address you in a way you dislike. I can go back over the thread in question and spot a couple of places where remarks were made that I might have taken as insult. Yet I chose to believe the author(s) was merely making a point, not attacking me. After all, I don't know these people and they don't know me. So whatever assumptions they make about me (or I about them) are unimportant.

Now, kick me off the boards if you must. As you have others who came before me with unpopular views. And as you will others who come after me. Then you'll be well on your way to ensuring that you will have nothing but countless megabytes of cyber drivel about how deep a shade of blue Lindsey's eyes are and how great Stevie looked at the last of her countless appearances at one of these masturbatory celebrity events that are constanly in the news.

Me, I'm interested in the music. And it is because of that that I made my orginal comments on the thread in question.

Gypsy-Rhiannon

06-28-2002, 09:02 AM

Some little pissant who was obviously uninformed and thin-skinned decided to engage me in volley of words until she gave up and, presumably, went to complain to the Ledge fascists in charge.

For you information I took the adult approach and walked away from the argument as it was getting us nowhere and this isn't the place for that. I can honestly say I have never had a problem with anyone on this board before but I will not sit here and be insulted. Was I being overly sensitive??? Maybe so and if that is the case then I will try not to be again. Perhaps you could do the same and let it drop also. Though I expect you will feel the need to respond to my post.

Pip

Oh and obviously I am uninformed again as that sounds like yet more insults you are throwing my way

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 09:16 AM

please stop before the moderator CLOSE THE BOARD! how many times was chit chat closed! enough is enough! drop it everyone please!

mimi:)

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 09:18 AM

"Was I being overly sensitive??? Maybe so and if that is the case then I will try not to be again."

Not being too successful, are you?

"Oh and obviously I am uninformed again as that sounds like yet more insults you are throwing my way."

If the hat fits...

Ghosty

06-28-2002, 09:21 AM

I have not seen the post that this is about. But as far as freedom of speech, no one is taking that away from anyone by locking a post. You can say all you want to say, maybe just not here. And moderators have every right to do that. This is not your message board. Someone else set it up. And they have the right to keep it the way they want it.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have the right to go *everywhere* and say what you want. If someone invites you into their house and then you start up something they do not feel is fitting, and it's upsetting their other guests, they have every right to ask you to either stop, or to please leave. That is not holding back your freedom of speech. Your freedom of speech doesn't entitle you to take away other people's freedoms. And since this message board is very much like someone's living room that you are invited into, then they have the right to say - we don't want this type of thing going on here. And we can respect that, or leave. It's our choice. So chill out and stop throwing the whole "freedom of speech" into the mix. I mean, give me a break.

So, no big deal. Take the conversation elsewhere if you want. That's your freedom. Ain't it grand! ;)

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
"Was I being overly sensitive??? Maybe so and if that is the case then I will try not to be again."

Not being too successful, are you?

"Oh and obviously I am uninformed again as that sounds like yet more insults you are throwing my way."

If the hat fits...

and what r u so mad about? let it go. please!

mimi:)

madformac

06-28-2002, 10:03 AM

OK,

I've been having discussions by email with other nameless Ledgies and the feeling I am getting is this:-

This message board is populated in the greater majority by teenagers, which is on the whole a good thing. It shows this band and it's members are reaching a large range of age groups and not just appealing to the"oldies".

However, some of these teenagers or even some of the adults with immature mentalities seem to take offense if anything with a negative approach to this band is posted. If anyone questions an aspect of the band, it's music or a particular member, especially Stevie, it is deemed blasphemous. Those of you taking this approach know who you are. As for those of you at school or college that feel this way, please understand that you will never gain wisdom in life unless you open up and grasp other peoples ideas, good or bad, and reflect on them with an open mind.

As for the moderators, their job is to ensure that these boards remain free of particularly bad language and to stop any posts that are in bad taste. If Ledgies descend to personal attacks and name calling then they should recieve a friendly warning and their posts should be edited accordingly, not removed altogether. Remember moderators, you wield the power to decide what we see posted, please set a good example to the rest of us. On the whole, keep up the good work.

If this post upsets anybody, sorry if I've caused any trouble in your own personal shangri-la, but please think before you reply to a thread.

Thanks.

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 10:18 AM

"I have not seen the post that this is about."

Would you review a book without reading it first?

"Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have the right to go *everywhere* and say what you want."

I don't think I said that. I was merely suggesting that the folks who control this site should encourage a free exchange of ideas. If you missed that, I suggest you re-read my post.

"and what r u so mad about? let it go. please!"

If you're bothered by this, stop reading it. No one is forcing you to. Let it go

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
[B"and what r u so mad about? let it go. please!"

If you're bothered by this, stop reading it. No one is forcing you to. Let it go [/B]

1st of all i don't have to stop reading anything that i don't want to. did i say this was "bothering" me? NO I DID NOT! and i know that "no one is forcing" me to read this thread, so you DON'T have to tell me that.

this thread started off with a moderator's post, so of course i'm gonna read it! i was simply asking you "why and what are you so mad about?" so, if you don't want to answer my question, then fine.

mimi:)

David

06-28-2002, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
... nothing but countless megabytes of cyber drivel about how deep a shade of blue Lindsey's eyes are and how great Stevie looked at the last of her countless appearances at one of these masturbatory celebrity events that are constanly in the news.
Just a brief interruption here for a hearty laugh at a beautifully constructed sentence with just the right touch of snark.

All right. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 11:00 AM

"1st of all i don't have to stop reading anything that i don't want to. did i say this was "bothering" me? NO I DID NOT! and i know that "no one is forcing" me to read this thread, so you DON'T have to tell me that."

Tyshiria, let's try to be reasonable here. Read. Don't read. That's up to you. But so far all you've added to this thread and the one that was closed were strongly-worded suggestions for people to stop engaging in the argument. Therefore, I deduced that the exchange bothered you. If that is so, I respectfully recommend that you not get involved. I have read plenty of discussions on these boards that I thought were silly, or even stupid, but I simply moved on. I didn't go to the trouble of posting to tell people to quit it.

"i was simply asking you 'why and what are you so mad about?' so, if you don't want to answer my question, then fine."

I didn't answer your question because the premise is wrong. You assumed I'm mad. Actually, I've been having a great deal of fun.

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
"1st of all i don't have to stop reading anything that i don't want to. did i say this was "bothering" me? NO I DID NOT! and i know that "no one is forcing" me to read this thread, so you DON'T have to tell me that."

Tyshiria, let's try to be reasonable here. Read. Don't read. That's up to you. But so far all you've added to this thread and the one that was closed were strongly-worded suggestions for people to stop engaging in the argument. Therefore, I deduced that the exchange bothered you. If that is so, I respectfully recommend that you not get involved. I have read plenty of discussions on these boards that I thought were silly, or even stupid, but I simply moved on. I didn't go to the trouble of posting to tell people to quit it.

"i was simply asking you 'why and what are you so mad about?' so, if you don't want to answer my question, then fine."

I didn't answer your question because the premise is wrong. You assumed I'm mad. Actually, I've been having a great deal of fun.

well that's not so, so your assumption was as wrong as mine. and if you're having "fun".........knock yourself out!

mimi:)

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 11:15 AM

"well that's not so, so your assumption was as wrong as mine. and if you're having "fun".........knock yourself out!"

Good, I'm glad we were able to reach some sort of agreement. I hope you are having fun too.

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
"well that's not so, so your assumption was as wrong as mine. and if you're having "fun".........knock yourself out!"

Good, I'm glad we were able to reach some sort of agreement. I hope you are having fun too.

you're funny.

mimi

Hawkeye

06-28-2002, 12:09 PM

Mick had NO IDEA what he was doing by doing that interveiw that threw us hungry dogs a bone, but little did we know the bone had been spiked with rat poison.

Johnny Stew

06-28-2002, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Now we see the fascists who run these boards going down the track of censorship.

I take offense at being called a fascist.
I'm a registered democrat.
;)
:D

Johnny Stew

Carole Ann

06-28-2002, 12:42 PM

Just a brief interruption here for a hearty laugh at a beautifully constructed sentence with just the right touch of snark.

Just ANOTHER break from the hoo-hah for a round of applause (clap-clap-clap) for an equally well-constructed, yet subtly snarky sentence. Thanks, D.

As for the rest of it:

Carne, when you're speaking to those of us who are adults and have been through it and back again, you are preaching to the choir. We agree yet perceive the futility of your campaign. We who have been there and back again know that everything you say rings true, but to only a small segment of this board.

The rest of 'em? Well, they're the ones who insist (still) on living their lives through the lyrics of a song, I think, because they haven't lived LONG ENOUGH to realize that LB is NOT going to "get back with" the ponderous Ms. Nicks, yet that's what we read about here: "Yippee, Mick says they're back in the studio and the chemistry is back between Stevie and Mr. Whiney." This, they take to mean there's potential f*cking going on during breaks in the janitor's closet. They're living lives not yet defined through this non-couple and WILL NOT GIVE AN INCH until, we can only hope, they've gotten 10 or more years under their belts and can see that it's all smoke and mirrors; it's all what THEY perceive is going on; it has NOTHING to do with reality. Or maybe it does. But you're never going to convince anyone of anything until they're ready to be convinced. And those masturbatory Nicksians and (with the exception of one or two) those salivatory Buckingham-ites will stand their ground as surely as the waves go out and the waves come back in.

We agree with you; but that's not the point. No one ELSE is going to, so you've kind of got yourself into a bind here. You've evidently got two options and two only: Preach to the choir or preach to the brick wall. :distress: :rolleyes:

Bella Figura

06-28-2002, 01:07 PM

madformac and CaroleAnn are quite right and they both said it with humor and intelligence...The thing to remember is that there are alot of young people on this board for whom a fairy tale life is still a possibility, they have the road ahead of them...and so, thankfully I might add, they can see reality in a romantic and hopefully positive light.

We older ledgies should remember we were once young and romantic ourselves...and we never listened to anyone either and took life way tooo seriously ourselves. Only time has taught us there is really is no happily ever after, you can't control situations and even people, and scary and wierd things happen to us in life and everything is not always black and white. so we need to nod and wink and know...

I think the younger people need to understand that the one thing that survives the rough patches in life is a good sense of humor. It can be ironic, it can even be bitter and rough but it has to be funny...and Stevie and Lindsey and the entire band can be perfect foils for this type humor...it becomes just another reason we older ledgies remain drawn to them and their music...so let us have our fun and don't take us toooo serious...

and one last thing...I just absolutely love the color of this brick wall!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Carole Ann

06-28-2002, 01:23 PM

The thing to remember is that there are alot of young people on this board for whom a fairy tale life is still a possibility, they have the road ahead of them...and so, thankfully I might add, they can see reality in a romantic and hopefully positive light.

EXACTLY what I was getting at, although not as gracefully. THANK you! That IS what I meant.:p

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 01:36 PM

thanks for giving us all such a laugh.

mimi:)

Johnny Stew

06-28-2002, 01:44 PM

It's not necessarily to *whom* you're preaching, but *how* you're preaching.

Expressing opinions is a great thing... most especially when it's done with tact and respect.

"There ain't no good guy... there ain't no bad guy... there's only you and me, and we just disagree...."

Johnny Stew

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
It's not necessarily to *whom* you're preaching, but *how* you're preaching.

Expressing opinions is a great thing... most especially when it's done with tact and respect.

"There ain't no good guy... there ain't no bad guy... there's only you and me, and we just disagree...."

Johnny Stew

i couldn't agree more!

mimi:)

Carole Ann

06-28-2002, 01:48 PM

...for taking up half a damned page with extraneous quotes; you and Our Pip just go hog-wild, don't'cha?!! :D

madformac

06-28-2002, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Bella Figura
The thing to remember is that there are alot of young people on this board for whom a fairy tale life is still a possibility, they have the road ahead of them...and so, thankfully I might add, they can see reality in a romantic and hopefully positive light.

Very nicely put Bella Figura.

I don't remember too much about my teenage years other than acne, mood swings and thoughts about girls!! :laugh: :laugh:

Hopefully, though, I have always tried to understand situations from other perspectives than my own, don't get me wrong, I LOVE a good argument, but in a constructive way. I don't feel the need to throw the rattle out of the pram if I hear something I don't like :laugh:

From some of the replies I have read lately it's as if one Ledgie has stolen the other's crayons!! It's a bit like a kindergarten!

Life can be wonderful when you are young, or young at heart, don't waste it in trivial tit for tat mud slinging. Enjoy yourselfs!

:blob2: :] :blob2: :] :blob2:

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Carole Ann
...for taking up half a damned page with extraneous quotes.:distress:

oh no problem. aren't they just the best? :nod:

mimi:)

Carole Ann

06-28-2002, 01:54 PM

aren't they just the best?

N-n-n-o-o-o-o-o.:rolleyes:

Maybe one of these days, they'll be YOUR quotes so you won't have to rely on someone else's words to express what you're feeling. Or maybe not.

Cristian

06-28-2002, 01:57 PM

:laugh: :laugh:

This thread is just too damn funny. :D

Song of the moment - Bella Donna

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Carole Ann

N-n-n-o-o-o-o-o.:rolleyes:

Maybe one of these days, they'll be YOUR quotes so you won't have to rely on someone else's words to express what you're feeling. Or maybe not.

lmao! i'm not relying on someone else's quotes to express what i'm feeling. did i tell you i was doing that? no i didn't. don't make assumptions my dear. my quotes are just that......QUOTES :lol: things i have come across that i thought were funny and sweet.

you're too much :laugh:

mimi:)

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Carole Ann

Maybe one of these days, they'll be YOUR quotes so you won't have to rely on someone else's words to express what you're feeling. Or maybe not.

Now it's my turn to roll on the floor laughing.

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca

Now it's my turn to roll on the floor laughing.

:lol: good boy! :lol:

mimi:)

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 02:15 PM

"good boy!"

Your wit is impressive.

tyshiria

06-28-2002, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
"good boy!"

Your wit is impressive.

oooooooh you're too sweet. thanks hun. are you still rolling around on the floor?

mimi:)

Hawkeye

06-28-2002, 02:18 PM

19, but i don't think or WANT stevie and Lindsey to get back together. When you fairy talers(nice new word i just made up :laugh: ) see Lindsey holding his little girl in his arms and his wife, how can you want him to reunite with Stevie. The soap opera was great in the 70's and has been the source of probibly 85% of Stevie's songs, BUT let's keep it that way.

highpriestess53

06-28-2002, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Now we see the fascists who run these boards going down the track of censorship. It's nothing new here.
Some little pissant who was obviously uninformed and thin-skinned decided to engage me in volley of words until she gave up and, presumably, went to complain to the Ledge fascists in charge.

I take exception to you and your attitude towards others The person to whom you are referring is a close personal friend, as for the moderators being fascists in YOUR opinion, well I am glad that they are because it means that they can zip your lips when needed.

Now, kick me off the boards if you must.

Why not save the moderators the trouble and leave.

Then you'll be well on your way to ensuring that you will have nothing but countless megabytes of cyber drivel about how deep a shade of blue Lindsey's eyes are and how great Stevie looked at the last of her countless appearances at one of these masturbatory celebrity events that are constanly in the news.

Perhaps that is the way some of us like the boards and I guess you must enjoy watching Stevie and the other celebrities for you to be soooo open about your lonesome sexual persuits...you must really find yourself a 'friend'.

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 04:33 PM

"Perhaps that is the way some of us like the boards and I guess you must enjoy watching Stevie and the other celebrities for you to be soooo open about your lonesome sexual persuits...you must really find yourself a 'friend'."

You're obviously too stupid to understand the term "masturbatory" in that context. Why don't you pick on someone of your own tiny intellectual size?

I won't even dignify your other comments with a reply.

Carole Ann

06-28-2002, 04:38 PM

All this rapier wit flying around here is bound to zap you if you don't watch out!

God help us if they ever get their hands on a thesaurus...:distress: :distress:

madformac

06-28-2002, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Carole Ann
God help us if they ever get their hands on a thesaurus...:distress: :distress:

A thesaurus, what does that mean??? ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Carole Ann

06-28-2002, 06:45 PM

Johnny Stew wrote:
"There ain't no good guy... there ain't no bad guy... there's only you and me, and we just disagree...."

No fair, Stewy, quoting one of my five favorite songs in the world right in the middle of a "disagreement." Foul, foul, foul!:p :p

Wild Heart

06-28-2002, 07:21 PM

I wasn't going to post anymore because I'm personally sick of this whole immature, character bashing, degrading mess but I just can't help myself when someone start throwing around the old Freedom of Speech defense.

Freedom of Speech is a right set forth by our forefathers to grant to right to express opinions in a rational, respectful manner. RESPECTFUL. THAT is what is wrong with this country, society and world (and this board)......period. There use to be a line that decent people knew not to cross. Not just because it wasn't acceptable but because it just was not the right thing to do. Nobody cares anymore about the right thing. They only care about their selfish personal satisfaction no matter who it hurts. These days people are rude and disrespectful to each other on a daily basis and no where is that more evident than on this board.

There are a very small minority of people who seem to automatically turn vicious and nasty when other don't agree with their opinions. One extremely negative person in particular seems to have made a sport out of attacking anyone who disagrees with him/her in any shape or form with his/her name calling, sarcarism and character assasination. This person claims to be here for the music yet this whole thing was started when he/she posted several messages ripping FM apart over this GH thing, something we don't even know for sure will materialize or not or in what form. It's fine if you question the band's motives and the extent of the corporate involvement or whatever, everyone has an opinion and not everyone will agree but it's like it was said before...it's not that you do it, it's HOW you do it and how you continue to do it. I have an idea this person knew his/her comments would ignite a firestorm of angry posts and that's probably part of his/her motive for using the verbage he uses. Just look a this thread. It started out as a moderator's thread closing the original post and it has now turned into another verbal p!ssing match to put it lightly and another excuse to intimidate and degrade other people. You're not even respectful to the moderators.

And another thing - yes there are alot of young people on this board and that's another reason to conduct yourself respectively while expressing your opinions. They may be young and their inmaturity may show at times but they deserve respect just like anyone else. I'm sure you were their age at some point.

Life is dramatic enough with worrying about day to day issues and the current state of the world. If I or anyone else need to escape to fairyland from time to time to keep my freaking sanity, it's not your place to judge. I don't hold to any delusions of a L&S wedding, dream of Lindsey's blue eyes or being Stevie's personal stylist or anything else concerning this band but I sometimes need to escape into Stevie's world to remind myself to look for the positive in this cynical world and that is why I come here and why I'm a fan and have been for almost 30 years.

In closing, next time you want to hide behind the old Freedom of Speech defense you may want to take a moment and remember another speech. It starts "Do unto others.......".

Thank you for my moment on the soapbox and I'm now ready for the flaming I know you can't wait to send. Don't burn up your keyboard.

FYI - I do own a thesaurus but I find my dictionary is more useful in looking up the meaning and usage of a word, don't you?

madformac

06-28-2002, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Wild Heart
I sometimes need to escape into Stevie's world to remind myself to look for the positive in this cynical world and that is why I come here and why I'm a fan and have been for almost 30 years.

If you want to escape reality for a while, join in and post a reply on my Fleetwood Mac Big Brother thread. :nod:

It's getting pretty funny!

Wild Heart

06-28-2002, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by madformac

If you want to escape reality for a while, join in and post a reply on my Fleetwood Mac Big Brother thread. :nod:

It's getting pretty funny!

I just skimmed through it quickly and the few things I caught look hilarious! I've got to run an errand real quick but I'll be back later and read the whole thing. I'll try to post if I'm feeling creative. :)

Wild Heart

06-28-2002, 10:07 PM

madformac -

ROTFLMAO! :laugh: :laugh: I read your thread and it's brilliant! Fleetwood Mac escapism at it's finest! :thumbsup: I just wish I had the creative energy to join in but for now I'll let you guys have the fun and I'll reap the reading rewards! :lol:

(I didn't want to spoil the flow of your Fleetwood Mac Big Brother thread so I thought I'd just post here.)

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Wild Heart
Freedom of Speech is a right set forth by our forefathers to grant to right to express opinions in a rational, respectful manner. RESPECTFUL.?

Ah, gee. I don't even want to pick on you, but you were clearly referring to me. Go ahead and name me in your posts. I can take it.

Just a couple of points: I appreciate your sentiments about being courteous and so forth. We should all strive for that. I did attack the moderators, but I didn't attack any other members on this thread. And if you look at the other threads, you will see that mostly I just shot back when I was attacked. Secondly, if the moderators can't take it, they have the power to kick me off. But I want to believe that they understand they have put themselves in the line of fire, especially if they are going to censor our speech.

As for you mixing up "respect" with the principle of Freedom of Speech, sorry, but you are just plain mistaken. If you haven't read the First Amendment, check it out. It might do you some good. You'll also see that nowhere does it say anything about "respect." The word "respecting" appears, but in the context of "about" or "in respect to," not in the context of "respectful" or "courteous." Hey, I live by that First Amendment. I should know. As for our founding fathers, you might be under the mistaken assumption they were civil to each other in their debates. You couldn't be more wrong. Read some historical books about the feuds between the Federalists and their foes. Our friends from Britain I'm sure enjoy the weekly broadcasts (or are they monthly?) of their prime minister being ridiculed by his opponents in Parliament. It is quite a spectacle. At Hyde Park, there is a soapbox where anyone can get up and speak his/her mind. And there is no caviat about respect there either.

Look, this is how arguments are fought. Not everyone is going to have the same standard of courtesy. I speak my mind in a certain way. If you don't like that, I understand. But if you're going to attack me, I'm going to give it back to you.

As for the second point, look, you may have a dictionary, but I suggest you get yourself a decent grammar book and a spell checker. Yikes! I could barely get through the mispellings and misused words:

"Assasination"
"There are a very small minority"
"verbage"
"conduct yourself respectively"

Your public school did you a great disservice. And if you went to a private school, demand your money back.

madformac

06-28-2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Wild Heart
madformac -

ROTFLMAO! :laugh: :laugh: I read your thread and it's brilliant! Fleetwood Mac escapism at it's finest! I'll let you guys have the fun and I'll reap the reading rewards! :lol:

(I didn't want to spoil the flow of your Fleetwood Mac Big Brother thread so I thought I'd just post here.)

Thanks, and no problem, I'll carry on with the thread. It's 4:10am here and I just can't sleep so I'll add a bit more.

Looks like you've got your own debate goin' on on this thread anyway. I'll just sit back and read it, I won't spoil the flow. :laugh: :laugh:

Wild Heart

06-28-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca

As for the second point, look, you may have a dictionary, but I suggest you get yourself a decent grammar book and a spell checker. Yikes! I could barely get through the mispellings and misused words:

"Assasination"
"There are a very small minority"
"verbage"
"conduct yourself respectively"

Your public school did you a great disservice. And if you went to a private school, demand your money back.

And thank you for proving my point about your attitude. So I made a few spelling and grammatical errors. I was p!ssed off and I didn't realize we were being graded for accuracy here! There's is no need to strike out at my educational background. You are certainly working hard on being courteous!

Living by the First Admendment is one thing....abusing it by using it as an excuse to intentionally insult & hurt other people it is quite another...no matter who you are.

CarneVaca

06-28-2002, 10:34 PM

"Living by the First Admendment is one thing....abusing it by using it as an excuse to intentionally insult & hurt other people it is quite another...no matter who you are."

I just don't think you understand the First Amendment. Here's a link for you. Go read it:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3924

It's pretty clear. And it is also pretty clear that none of what I have said here could be considered "abusing" the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has ruled obscene language and speech that incites violence as instances of speech not protected by this right. As far as I can tell, I've done neither.

And you did it again. Please double-check your spelling and grammar. If you ask me, THAT is an abuse of speech.

Johnny Stew

06-28-2002, 10:41 PM

One should never mistake education or intelligence for emotional maturity.

I've known a great number of highly-intelligent people who behaved like petulant three year olds.

Johnny Stew

Sorcerer386

06-28-2002, 10:54 PM

Just like the white winged dove sings a song, sounds like she's singing ooh, ooh, ooh
Just like the white winged dove sings a song, sounds like she's singing ooh baby ooh, say ooh
I hear the call of a nightbird
I hear the call of a nightbird
I still hear the call of a nightbird
Ooh and he says deep in the middle of the night
Do you know what it sounds like
Ooh, do you know what it sounds like
I know what it sounds like...
I know what it sounds like...
I know what it sounds liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike!

Wild Heart

06-28-2002, 11:07 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CarneVaca
I just don't think you understand the First Amendment. Here's a link for you. Go read it:

That's o.k.. I have a copy right here in my desk along with the rest of the Bill Of Rights. I've read it many times. I know that you may be surprised that an illiterate bumpkin like myself could read something like that with so many big words.

It's pretty clear. And it is also pretty clear that none of what I have said here could be considered "abusing" the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has ruled obscene language and speech that incites violence as instances of speech not protected by this right. As far as I can tell, I've done neither.

You are correct. You have not, to my knowledge, used obscene language or speech that incites violence (although judging by a couple of the other Ledgie posts, that thought may have crossed a few minds in a milder form). You have, however, deliberately made insulting remarks with the intent on hurting people's feelings (or just to p!ss them off) and then when you're called on being obnoxious, you hide behind Freedom of Speech. You just don't get it! It's not about Freedom of Speech. It's about not being rude and being decent and respectful. No that's not in the freaking First Amendment! I know! It's just something every decent human including yourself should do! Try it sometime - you might like it.

And you did it again. Please double-check your spelling and grammar. If you ask me, THAT is an abuse of speech.

Ah! And you did it again too! You once again have proven my point about that nasty little attitude! You should really have that checked! THAT, my fellow Ledgie, is an abuse of speech.

Wild Heart

06-28-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by madformac

Thanks, and no problem, I'll carry on with the thread. It's 4:10am here and I just can't sleep so I'll add a bit more.

Looks like you've got your own debate goin' on on this thread anyway. I'll just sit back and read it, I won't spoil the flow. :laugh: :laugh:

Well I'm just about debated out! I don't enjoy arguing with sign posts. It's just not fun. I liked Johnny Stew's recent post and after some thought, I think it's time for me to climb out of the gutter and take that high road.

WELSH WITCH

06-29-2002, 03:03 AM

AMEN to that Wild Heart!!!!

BTW nice to see you again here.

Bye,LOL,
Dimphy:wavey:

Robert

06-29-2002, 06:45 AM

A thread was closed over people getting bent out of shape about an album that doesn't even exist yet?What happened to the old days when we actually had a misogynistic homophobe to argue with?Now that was something to get yer panties in a bunch about!

CarneVaca

06-29-2002, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Wild Heart
[QUOTE][i]And you did it again. Please double-check your spelling and grammar. If you ask me, THAT is an abuse of speech.

Ah! And you did it again too! You once again have proven my point about that nasty little attitude! You should really have that checked! THAT, my fellow Ledgie, is an abuse of speech.

Time to get a sense of humor. Why do some people take this stuff so seriously? (making herculean effort not to make another snide remark.)

And as for the rest, I'm glad you say you understand the First Amendment. You didn't seem to in previous posts. I've already addressed your points about courtesy.

Rumours

06-29-2002, 12:56 PM

YAWN :rolleyes:

Sorcerer386, that is a really great song you were singing there!!
Most enjoyable post I've read in this entire thread. At least it was somehow Fleetwood Mac related. Thank you.
Well, off to read threads that actually have a point and a focus relating to the reason that this forum actually exists and the reason I come here........

Stephanie

wondergirl9847

06-29-2002, 01:10 PM

HEAR HEAR, STEPHANIE!

P.S. I JUST HIT 800 posts! WOOHOO! Go me! :blob1::]:blob2:

P.S.S. You would THINK that after 9-11, we would all feel love instead of spreading hatred and foulness around. Geez.

CarneVaca

06-29-2002, 02:18 PM

"You would THINK that after 9-11, we would all feel love instead of spreading hatred and foulness around. Geez."

Wondergirl, thanks for your sentiment. I truly appreciate it. Just one thing, though: Let's be more careful in how we toss around the term "9/11" so casually. I was in New York that day, and I know people who lost loved ones. I make it a point to make sure not to trivialize the event by using it in such a casual contest.

Trust me, I am not criticizing you. I understand what you are saying. I am simply pleading with you to think about it a little more carefully before using the term. I hope you take my remarks in the spirit in which they are intended.

wondergirl9847

06-29-2002, 02:38 PM

Carne, I know people who live in NYC, and trust me, it's not something I used casually. :distress: I was just saying that we need to quit being foul towards each other, that HATRED is what caused 9-11, and I would hope that we would be ABOVE that now. That is what I MEANT. Thanks. :thumbsup:

Vianna

06-29-2002, 05:52 PM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
— The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

There is the First Amendment. Thanks for the link, CarneVaca.

The amendment would apply if this were a public forum. This is not a public forum. It is Marty Adelson's private message board on which he graciously allows us to post and talk to each other online. Therefore no one has the right here to say just anything he/she wants. Rather, Marty has the right to kick the whole bunch of us off his private property if he so chooses.

CarneVaca

06-29-2002, 07:13 PM

Vianna, I know all that, believe me. I went back and forth with Marty on this very issue back around 1998. Or was it 1999? As I've stated previously, kick me off if you wish. And all those who come after me who express themselves in the same way. Then you'll end up with all the hypersensitive teenagers (and some older ones too) who want to discuss trivial matters that have nothing do do with music.

I think you way overreacted on closing the other thread with no warning whatsoever. And that is why I went on the offensive against censorship here. As a moderator, you have a responsibility to make judgement calls, and I understand that. However, and I am sure many will disagree, what you did came across as an abuse of power.

I'm sure no matter what I say you're still going to think you did the right thing. But I wish you would think for a second about allowing people to express themselves freely. Obviously I am not the only who feels this way here. If you want to continue an intelligent exchange of ideas on this board, you're going to have to allow some vituperation. That is simply the way people communicate.

ThePenguin

06-29-2002, 08:31 PM

CarneVaca--

I don't remember you (and therefore a discussion with you about first amendment rights) from a few years ago. Either you were using a different username or the whole thing just didn't move from my short-term to long-term memory.

However, as Vianna pointed out and you are concurring, this is a private board. *To me*, First Amendment rights have always therefore taken a backseat to my own rights as I could close this forum temporarily or permanently at any time. That being said though, I think we give A LOT of leeway around here. *To me*, the Ledge moderators are certainly not overly aggressive in closing or deleting threads-- intervention only happens to an extremely small percentage of what is posted. If anything, my impression usually is that the majority (not everyone...the majority) would prefer the moderators to step in more often then they currently do or have in the past. We want this to be a generally pleasant environment as discussions pertaining to the band and their (in)activities are hobbies for us all.

The FAQ was updated rather recently and contains what is and is not acceptable around here. At their discretion, the moderators can close or delete threads and issue strikes to offending posters. If you disagree with the FAQ and the enforcement of it provided by the moderators, then perhaps this forum just is not for you. The moderators and I acknowledge that the FAQ will not please everyone, but no possible incarnation would anyway.

You posted to Vianna that:

As a moderator, you have a responsibility to make judgement calls, and I understand that.

and that is exactly what she did. As I post this, there have been 791 threads in this Rumours forum since The Ledges reopened a few years ago. I think I would be shocked if Vianna closed/deleted more than three or four total, which would be around 0.5%. I don't think she is abusing any "power". Even this thread which has been (again, *to me*) too critical of her has remained open so far.

- Marty

Carole Ann

06-29-2002, 08:49 PM

You sly minx, you! Don't forget his assault on Dutch cheese! I don't know what category THAT would fall under! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Where've you been?

Robert wrote:
What happened to the old days when we actually had a misogynistic homophobe to argue with?

Vianna

06-29-2002, 08:52 PM

As a matter of actual fact, I don't always think I do the right thing. I try to do what seems to me to be the lesser of evils at the time.

I agree with you that debate can be a good thing, I like good discussion, it livens this place up; I don't agree with you that debate necessarily has to involve vituperation. I know in the past that it has, and you don't have to tell a history teacher like myself that we have had incidents in our Congress where people have been physically hurt as a result of debate. One guy lost an ear!I just don't believe it has to come to that.

I also don't want people to feel they can't post an opinion here without having to be thick-skinned enough to be called names or to have references made to their lack of mental ability, and so on and so forth. As a teacher, I have been called every name in the book so you are not going to hurt me but so much no matter what you call me. I am used to it, and I don't let it get to my opinion of myself. I say to myself, "That is one person's opinion. I don't have to buy that". I have the advantage of being old enough and experienced in the ways of the world enough to let it go. It's not the same for everyone on this board and some of them are more easily hurt and put down. I perhaps want to protect people too much. That is my nature.

I closed a thread that was perceived as hurtful by people who reported it. The moderators have a rule about harassment and those who reported the post perceived it as harassment. Harassment is difficult to define, I admit, but I saw elements of harassment in it. I did not close it because I wanted power over anybody. If you perceive it that way, I am sorry. It was not meant that way.

I personally allow you to have your opinion. Please be willing to let me have mine.

CarneVaca

06-29-2002, 10:14 PM

Marty, I didn't expect you to remember our discussion. I'm sure you've had many e-mail exchanges with other Ledge participants over the years. I see you hold the same views now as you did then, and you certainly have that right, since you own this board. At the risk of repeating myself, I only ask that you and whoever else you've charged with policing the words posted here be willing to err on the side of allowing people to exchange ideas. I didn't post here for years because I thought that it had gotten way too restrictive.

Vianna, you most certainly did overreact. It looked as if the discussion was winding down, and you acted without issuing any warning. At the very least, you could have posted a warning on the thread in question. If that is the policy here, than it is a bad policy.

When you say,

"I personally allow you to have your opinion. Please be willing to let me have mine,"

you're missing the point, and being less than accurate at that. When you close a board in which people are expressing opinions, you've just disallowed them from doing just that. And you acted on an opinion (in my view, a bad one) from which you concluded the thread should be closed. Surely you could see how someone might construe that as an abuse of authority. And as far as my allowing you to have an opinion, that is a rather ironic comment, considering that by exercising your authority based on your opinion, you deprived others of doing just that.

Yes, you are right that I made remarks about a couple of people's mental capacities, and so forth. What seems to be lost on the folks who have taken issue with how I've posted here is that a discussion is a two-way thing. If you opt to post in reaction to something I posted, and in doing so you choose to make malicious remarks about supposed sexual perversions because you misunderstood something that was posted, you've just opened yourself up to a very strongly worded retort. I didn't go running to the moderator accusing someone of "harrassment" or whatever the standard is here. I handled it myself.

If you didn't see the remarks in question, I suggest you scroll back to those comments. If someone had posted a similar comment directed at you, I would be willing to bet that you would have some kind of response. You too, Marty. So let's not kid ourselves here. I've never denied that my language was discourteous once or twice, but I haven't seen the same kind of concern expressed here over the remarks similar to those I just mentioned, which by the way were unprovoked. If I say something about the band, and someone attacks me in response, I would call that unprovoked. Is this band so sacrosanct on this board that you cannot criticize it and its members without being attacked? What's the policy on that?

highpriestess53

06-29-2002, 11:41 PM

I like that word 'verbage' you know it conjures up the image of verbal garbage that keeps coming out on this thread...albeit in written form

verbal + garbage = 'verbage' very possibly a new word meaning verbal garbage, spouting crap with no purpose

of course there is the dictionary defined word 'verbiage' that defines the excessive and often meaningless use of words.....I knew what you meant....

Mmmmmmm....verbage...one to think about....:laugh: :laugh:

CarneVaca

06-29-2002, 11:44 PM

highpriestess53

06-29-2002, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca

Is this supposed to be witty?

You wouldn't know dear as you have none...wit that is..:wavey:

Wild Heart

06-29-2002, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by highpriestess53
I like that word 'verbage' you know it conjures up the image of verbal garbage that keeps coming out on this thread...albeit in written form

verbal + garbage = 'verbage' very possibly a new word meaning verbal garbage, spouting crap with no purpose

of course there is the dictionary defined word 'verbiage' that defines the excessive and often meaningless use of words.....I knew what you meant....

Mmmmmmm....verbage...one to think about....:laugh: :laugh:

Actually the word "verbiage" is the word I meant to use. In my fury I left out the "i" but you could be on to something with "verbage"! :laugh: I have a terrible habit of skipping letters and whole words when I type messages. I should proof read but I'm too lazy. I figure whoever is reading will get the point one way or another!

CarneVaca

06-29-2002, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by highpriestess53

You wouldn't know dear as you have none...wit that is..:wavey:

I guess that would depend on your standard of wit.

Oh, and I think the rules and regulations of this board should have a section on spelling and grammar, and on knowing what such words as "masturbatory" mean... On second thought, don't do that. You'll end up with only a handful of people, all of whom have expressed points of view similar to mine. With whom would I argue then?

Johnny Stew

06-30-2002, 12:18 AM

Everyone makes spelling mistakes and gramatical errors... I have noticed them in everyone's posts... including my own.

None of us should throw stones, since we all live in glass houses.

Johnny Stew

WELSH WITCH

06-30-2002, 05:06 AM

Right on Johnny!!!!!!:nod:

And since english is not my first language, I think I'm doing a pretty good job.:nod:

Bye,LOL,
Dimphy:wavey:

sodascouts

06-30-2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Then you'll be well on your way to ensuring that you will have nothing but countless megabytes of cyber drivel about how deep a shade of blue Lindsey's eyes are

I totally understand how girlish crushes and gushing may be hard for you to comprehend or relate to. No doubt they seem very silly to you. However, these are simply a young girl's equivalent of many young men's (admittedly much more private) sexual fantasies. Young girls and young men have different outlets, and they take different forms. One is no more contemptible than the other.

Of course, farbeit from me to suggest that the upstanding gentlemen on this board ever indulged in a sexual fantasy of a rock star, actress, etc. But perhaps you might have a...friend who did so at one time? And perhaps through this friend you can better understand, perhaps even try to patiently tolerate, such behavior.

I know it's more than easy to let annoyance flare into a desire to lash out at those who irritate you, to show them how little you think of them. Make them feel stupid and ashamed in the hopes that they'll be too humilated to continue posting about such things. While this would be a great relief to many, I have a feeling that people might be able to see why it might not be the right thing to do.

CarneVaca: I'm not trying to single you out. I know for a fact that many people on the Ledge share your feelings about this matter, and it's hardly surprising that that's the case. However (and perhaps this is naive of me) I'm hoping that understanding might lead to greater tolerance and less condemnation.

I don't expect a reply to this post - I'm not looking for an argument. This thread already has enough of those! It's just something I want people to give some thought to.

CarneVaca

06-30-2002, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by sodascouts

Of course, farbeit from me to suggest that the upstanding gentlemen on this board ever indulged in a sexual fantasy of a rock star, actress, etc.

Chuckling, a little red-faced.

AliP

06-30-2002, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by madformac
OK,

However, some of these teenagers or even some of the adults with immature mentalities seem to take offense if anything with a negative approach to this band is posted. If anyone questions an aspect of the band, it's music or a particular member, especially Stevie, it is deemed blasphemous. Those of you taking this approach know who you are. As for those of you at school or college that feel this way, please understand that you will never gain wisdom in life unless you open up and grasp other peoples ideas, good or bad, and reflect on them with an open mind.

Amen!! Thank you madformac! My thoughts exactly.

Sorcerer386

06-30-2002, 11:48 PM

Is this topic still going on? I'll just go back to singing:

Still through the sunlight, days I wait
Track a ghost through the fog
Sun is burning me
And you come running out in the wind with me
The ocean is your blanket...

ChickenShack

07-01-2002, 12:55 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sorcerer386
[B]Is this topic still going on? I'll just go back to singing:

Still through the sunlight, days I wait
Track a ghost through the fog

She spends alot of valuable time trying to track that muthafreakin ghost, doesn't she? :lol:

Hawkeye

07-01-2002, 01:47 PM

But I chose to DANCE across the STAGES of the world
Everyone said I'd never learn
But I STILL HEAR your words
i waited all my life for you

Gypsy-Rhiannon

07-01-2002, 03:59 PM

She spends alot of valuable time trying to track that muthafreakin ghost, doesn't she?

LMAO!!!!:laugh:

Pip

Sorcerer386

07-01-2002, 04:45 PM

That she does, but you know what, it's one of my favorite Stevie images...track a ghost through the fog, I mean, that's a pretty tough thing to do considering the ghost would blend into the fog. Not wonder why she spends so much time tracking it. :wavey:

EnchantedStorms

07-01-2002, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Sorcerer386
That she does, but you know what, it's one of my favorite Stevie images...track a ghost through the fog, I mean, that's a pretty tough thing to do considering the ghost would blend into the fog. Not wonder why she spends so much time tracking it. :wavey:

lol....I think it's a lost cause....just like these "discussions". But, I agree...that's my favorite Stevie image too. It makes a lot of sense to me, just seems to describe nearly my whole life. (Not that I necessarily think my LIFE is a lost cause...LOL:laugh: but you get my point...)

~~Angela~~:wavey:

Amy Y

07-03-2002, 01:53 AM

I know I've come too late to this thread, but I'd still like to state what I've gathered from some of the things I've read.

Originally posted by Wild Heart

There are a very small minority of people who seem to automatically turn vicious and nasty when other don't agree with their opinions. One extremely negative person in particular seems to have made a sport out of attacking anyone who disagrees with him/her in any shape or form with his/her name calling, sarcarism and character assasination. This person claims to be here for the music yet this whole thing was started when he/she posted several messages ripping FM apart over this GH thing, something we don't even know for sure will materialize or not or in what form. It's fine if you question the band's motives and the extent of the corporate involvement or whatever, everyone has an opinion and not everyone will agree but it's like it was said before...it's not that you do it, it's HOW you do it and how you continue to do it. I have an idea this person knew his/her comments would ignite a firestorm of angry posts and that's probably part of his/her motive for using the verbage he uses. Just look a this thread. It started out as a moderator's thread closing the original post and it has now turned into another verbal p!ssing match to put it lightly and another excuse to intimidate and degrade other people. You're not even respectful to the moderators.

And another thing - yes there are alot of young people on this board and that's another reason to conduct yourself respectively while expressing your opinions. They may be young and their inmaturity may show at times but they deserve respect just like anyone else. I'm sure you were their age at some point.

Life is dramatic enough with worrying about day to day issues and the current state of the world. If I or anyone else need to escape to fairyland from time to time to keep my freaking sanity, it's not your place to judge.

I like your points here. I really do, but there are many ways of escaping from reality. Have you ever considered that all of the attacking and sarcasm here is just another way of escaping from problems and keeping sane? I don't know if that is the situation here, it's just a thought. Some of us dream our way out, some of us fight or scream our way out. Some may overload on reality to escape it.

I find your contradictions interesting, CarneVaca.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Unfortunately some of the reactions on this board are pretty reflective of what's going on in the country (I realize a handful of people here post from outside the US). Essentially ignorant people who don't understand or appreciate the beauty and sanctity of a free exchange of ideas want to clamp down on some unpopular views. We see it among the corporations that are trying to run our lives and in our pansy-ass government as well.

True, true. Reading further on, I stumbled upon this:

" Just one thing, though: Let's be more careful in how we toss around the term "9/11" so casually. I was in New York that day, and I know people who lost loved ones. I make it a point to make sure not to trivialize the event by using it in such a casual contest. "

and this:

"I am simply pleading with you to think about it a little more carefully before using the term. "

Maybe you don't eat what you dish out. If you are purposely being contradicting, then fine, whatever. If not, you should be aware that you just went against your whole fight by that post. Funny that you drew the line at the very mention of 9/11. What gives? You seem to be comfortable chewing up many other sensitive topics. The irony here is incredible. It's all fun and games until something that YOU are personally affected by is mentioned. Granted, it's sensitive to many others here as well, but maybe some of us aren't sensitive to it at all. I'm not one of them, but if I weren't sensitive about it, would that be an unpopular view of which you spoke? And would you be the "essential ignorant" who would want to shut me up?

Also, something about the last quote from that post:

You pleaded to wondergirl to be careful very much like how Tyshiria pleaded for everyone and especially you to stop the heat. You wrote her in response, "If you're bothered by this, stop reading it. No one is forcing you to. Let it go". Maybe you could have taken your own words into consideration. The mention of 9/11 is a sensitive issue to you, just like how the threat of the board being closed was a sensitive issue to Tyshiria.

I hope, CarneVaca, that I have not offended you. I just found it interesting that you contradicted yourself. Maybe you will, too.

love to all,

Amy Yeo

CarneVaca

07-03-2002, 08:10 AM

Amy, Amy, Amy:

Your comments are astounding. I see that you're posting from outside the U.S., so perhaps your connection to the events of 9/11 isn't quite as strong. But your drawing a parallel between my reaction to comments made about 9/11 and the reaction of some posters to what I have said about the band is so surprising that I have to wonder if you realized what you were saying.

My comments to Tyshiria, and I stand by them, were simply a rational way to deal with a problem that seemed to bother her. She got into a discussion to tell others to end the discussion. If I'm at a cocktail party and a group of people huddles next to me to discuss buying shoes or bungee jumping, I may not be interested in the conversation, but I'm not going to tell them to stop it because it does not interest me.

Now when our other friend tossed the term "9/11" into the mix in what seemed to me a cavalier way, I merely "pleaded" with her to consider how she uses the term. Now, she seems like a nice enough person and I am sure she had no intention other than to express a positive sentiment. And I even acknowledged that.

You reached way far to find a parallel here, probably because you had no real substantive contribution to this discussion, which pretty much has wound down. Now, let me plead with you to consider this: Is my reaction to remarks about the murder of more than 3,000 people going about their daily lives a fair comparison to a reaction of someone who was unhappy with the way a discussion about a filthy-rich rock band was going on this board? Unlike most of the world, I didn't have to watch 9/11 on TV.

:distress:

Amy Y

07-03-2002, 02:46 PM

In your opinion, I used an extreme comparison. In someone else's opinion, it may not have been an extremity. This filthy-rich rock band is why people are posting on these boards. Many people here find that Fleetwood Mac is especially important to them. I'm not going to judge what's important to posters here, and to what extent. I'm only suggesting that to others, a message board shut down MAY be just as serious an issue as 9/11 is to you.

I think that everyone who read my post understood that I was simply playing devil's advocate. Of couse I realized what I was writing, but maybe you didn't. See, if you read what I had to write, you would have seen, clearly writen: "... but maybe some of us aren't sensitive to it at all. I'm not one of them...". This should clearly suggest what my standpoint is about it, and why you don't need to plead with me to consider what you're asking. Ask that to everyone else. I'm just wonder if someone here answered yes to your question, would you be okay with that unpopular view, or would you not want hear it.

I hope that you never wonder again if I know what I'm writing, as if you're almost giving me a chance to retract what I wrote. I barely wrote any of my own opinions, just observances and suggestions, so I don't need the tisk-tisk. I just wanted to point out that you were deliciously contradicting, and just to play on that as devil's advocate. I certainly will not apologize for an OBSERVANCE I made on this thread.

I'm not going to comment on your suggestion that because I'm outside the country, my connection to what happened on 9/11 may not be strong. If you honestly want to know what I went through that day, send me a private message telling me so, and I'll be happy to reveal all. The same invitation goes out to anyone else who wants to know.

CarneVaca

07-03-2002, 08:00 PM

Amy:

With all due respect, your premise is incorrect: I never told anyone to stop posting, therefore there is no contradiction. It is simply a figment of your imagination. Or perhaps you simply misread. Pleading with someone to reconsider how the person is using a particular phrase or term is vastly different from telling people engaged in a discussion to stop. If you don't see that universe of difference, there's really not much I can do to help you. As someone who lives by the First Amendment, I would NEVER tell anyone to not express an opinion. I may be guilty of being discourteous here, which may be bad enough in the eyes of some, but I won't tell anyone to not post an opinion.

You've made a lot of assumptions in your post. Your original message was so outlandish that besides what I've already pointed out, you went so far as to try to psycho-analyze me:

"Have you ever considered that all of the attacking and sarcasm here is just another way of escaping from problems and keeping sane? I don't know if that is the situation here, it's just a thought. Some of us dream our way out, some of us fight or scream our way out. Some may overload on reality to escape it."

You know nothing about me. And while I support your right to post whatever opinions you want, I reserve the right to think that you are full of ****. Yeah, you can go ahead and reply that I choose to ignore the part where you say, "I don't know if that is the situation here," but you and I know that you wanted to make the point while leaving yourself just enough room to try to deflect criticism. I've been dealing how people employ rhetoric all my adult life, so such tricks don't work on me.

Despite the sheer folly of your reasoning in your original post, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're a decent person. And I'll just leave it at that.

Amy Y

07-03-2002, 11:33 PM

CarneVaca,

The quote that you just used of mine was directed to Wild Heart. It was her post that I was commenting on at first. I was just coming up with another suggestion to her post, about differing attitudes of everyone on this message board. I wasn't psycho-analyzing you, but since your name directly followed that paragraph, I can understand how you took it as such. I wasn't addressing you until I mentioned your name.

I know you didn't ask anyone to stop posting. You just expressed a concern about the way an issue was mentioned. I took that as nearly a form of attempted censorship, which didn't seem to jive with your previous attitude. That's why I took it as a bit of a contradiction. Obviously, you think I took it wrong.

As for me stating that I don't know if other people's attacking attitudes on the ledge has to do with dealing with life, maybe I should have instead stated that I hope this is the situation, at least in some cases. Some people are also likely to be negative, for no real reason except for that's who they are. Again, I wasn't speaking about you, just posters in general.

Maybe you'll still think that I'm full of crapola, even though it's partially due to misunderstanding. I rather appreciate your honesty about that and your opinion of my reasoning. I hope that if we are involved in another round of posts together, we won't clash as much next time. Even if we do, I'll still look forward to it.

night all,

Amy Yeo