Frozen Love Podcast

[sleepless child]

Just listened to the songexplorer podcast on Frozen Love. Lindsey and Stevie are interviewed seperately, which I think is good. It gives both of them room to talk about the song and not interrupt each other. It is really an awesome episode. About 40 minutes long, going into Fritz and then becoming BuckinghamNicks. Then the making of Frozen Love. And yes, Stevie says she and Lindsey are talking. She mentions this twice. Once saying she talked to him last night and the other saying she is going to call him. Oh boy, so maybe the rumours of a one off concert next year, just may be true.

[Villavic]

Lindsey and Stevie are interviewed seperately, which I think is good.

I haven't heard the podcast yet. So she didn't lie when she wrote in her post "Lindsey and I told Hrishikesh Hirway...". When I read that I didn't believe they were interviewed together, I was right. I didn't know what to expect anyway. And now that you mention she said they are talking, honestly that doesn't make me happy, but whatever! they can do what they want as long as they are at peace with themselves.

But no reunion please.

[sleepless child]

I agree. Good for them if Lindsey has forgiven Stevie, but I don't want to see them onstage again. The podcast is pretty interesting though if you are a Buckinghamnicks fan.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Here's a link to the episode in case you haven't listened to it yet.

https://songexploder.net/buckingham-nicks

[Storms123]

Here's a link to the episode in case you haven't listened to it yet.

https://songexploder.net/buckingham-nicks

I actually thought it was a great interview. They really complemented each other well. Clearly they are/have spoken and it made for a better interview. And Karen "recorded" Stevie's portion, for anyone wondering :]. She got a shout out at the end.

[WalkAThinLine.]

I actually thought it was a great interview. They really complemented each other well. Clearly they are/have spoken and it made for a better interview. And Karen "recorded" Stevie's portion, for anyone wondering :]. She got a shout out at the end.

I agree that this interview was well conducted. The songwriting responsibilities between the two were clearly described, we got some insights on the recording process, the lyrics, and their assessment of the finished product. Arguably one of the biggest treats was hearing the isolated tracks, particularly aspects of the orchestra. This is up there as one of my favorite interviews with members of the band. Song Exploder also did an episode on "Go Your Own Way" in 2018, which I would also recommend. I included the link to the audio and the transcript below.

https://songexploder.net/fleetwood-mac
http://songexploder.net/transcripts/fleetwood-mac-transcript.pdf

[BrownEyedGirl26]

Here's a link to the episode in case you haven't listened to it yet.

https://songexploder.net/buckingham-nicks

Thankyou for uploading this podcast!:]

Back in the day I remember lying on the floor listening to this whole album for the first time and "Frozen Love" was my favourite song immediately. Then I played it over and over!

The perfect vocal harmonies, lyrics and instrumental notes building just at the right time to create this historical masterpiece of music.

Just simply beautiful!

Thankyou Stevie and Lindsey!:xoxo:

[bombaysaffires]

It all really reinforces that they actually should have cowriting credit on many if not most of her FM songs. She writes a simple melody to her lyrics, but he composes almost all the musical parts. But her ego just won't allow it. He did a British interview some years back saying that many of her songs should have properly been cowrites (Rhiannon and Landslide for sure). By today's standards, they would be both credited. So her "songwriting" awards and whatnot have always had to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially when I recently read a couple of interviews with some of the Heartbreakers who were like, man we heard her "demos" and didn't know wtf to make of them. (To the point where later Dave Stewart took the approach of, don't bother just give me lyrics and I'll write some music and then you can put a melody to it. If she could only have put her ego aside to do more of that with Lindsey instead....which she maybe might have if he had not been so cutting in his feedback) A lot of Lindsey's angst about working with her for years and years especially in the 70s-80s came from this... she was getting all sorts of attention and kudos and he knew that he was hugely responsible for all the credit she was getting (as a writer). He's mellowed and says it well in this interview, that he was doing all this musical stuff to her material BUT wouldn't have anything to even be working on without that "center" material that she brought in. That's the sad thing about their whole working relationship-- they were so good together, and their skill sets were so opposite that it shouldn't have been so competitive, but that need to be the "star" and get ALL the greedy credit got in the way for BOTH of them.

[bombaysaffires]

I agree that this interview was well conducted. The songwriting responsibilities between the two were clearly described, we got some insights on the recording process, the lyrics, and their assessment of the finished product. Arguably one of the biggest treats was hearing the isolated tracks, particularly aspects of the orchestra. This is up there as one of my favorite interviews with members of the band. Song Exploder also did an episode on "Go Your Own Way" in 2018, which I would also recommend. I included the link to the audio and the transcript below.

https://songexploder.net/fleetwood-mac
http://songexploder.net/transcripts/fleetwood-mac-transcript.pdf

Thanks for sharing this!

[BigAl84]

This is actually the first interview Stevie has done in probably a decade where I didn't find myself cringing. She didn't come across bitter or go down any of her classic self-indulgent, distorted views of reality :]

It reminded me of the Stevie that did an interview with Jim Ladd in 1998 for the Enchanted Tour. We haven't seen that side of Stevie in a really long time.

[Villavic]

A lot of Lindsey's angst about working with her for years and years especially in the 70s-80s came from this... she was getting all sorts of attention and kudos and he knew that he was hugely responsible for all the credit she was getting (as a writer).

If that is true, Lindsey shouldn't have allowed that for so many years. But instead, he just kept perpetuating that soap opera of angst. Cause of all the managers I've had and admired, one lesson has always stuck with me: If you allow the problem, you become part of the problem.

Of course, if he had done that from the beginning, we wouldn't have the Fleetwood Mac we know today. :laugh:

This is actually the first interview Stevie has done in probably a decade where I didn't find myself cringing. She didn't come across bitter or go down any of her classic self-indulgent, distorted views of reality :]

It reminded me of the Stevie that did an interview with Jim Ladd in 1998 for the Enchanted Tour. We haven't seen that side of Stevie in a really long time.

Maybe that fall that injured her shoulder also hit her head and put some things in their place. :)

[anusha]

I think songwriting credits in a band are complicated -- either you go the route of U2 and just share them equally, or a primary songwriter or songwriters get credit and maybe agree to a revenue split with the others on the songwriting royalties. Even then, disputes arise -- Sting was recently sued by Andy Summers and Stewart Copeland over the songwriting credits for "Every Breath You Take" over 40 years after the song came out -- and they had negotiated a revenue split a couple of times over the years.

On the other hand, Pat Benetar splits her songwriting with her husband, Neil Girardo, and they are billed together on their current tours, but she still remains the star. So, I don't know that songwriting credits would have given Lindsey the recognition he may have felt was missing. Maybe he would have been happy if he had been included in the accolades/fame/respect Stevie got for her songs, but the nature of fame sometimes doesn't allow for nuance like that.

At the end of the day, it feels like the personal/emotional conflict between them was fueled by the breakup and how fame changed them and their own inherent personality traits (self-involvement especially), and even if Lindsey had gotten more credit for his role in authorship, they probably would have ended up in the same fights. No matter how you assign credits, nothing would change the fact that he worked hard on songs that made his ex super famous and able to wield a lot of power in FM, while he was just not in that echelon of fame. The fact that they were able to work together as long as they did may be more exceptional than the fact that it had the ugly breakdown it did by the end.

[bombaysaffires]

I think songwriting credits in a band are complicated -- either you go the route of U2 and just share them equally, or a primary songwriter or songwriters get credit and maybe agree to a revenue split with the others on the songwriting royalties. Even then, disputes arise -- Sting was recently sued by Andy Summers and Stewart Copeland over the songwriting credits for "Every Breath You Take" over 40 years after the song came out -- and they had negotiated a revenue split a couple of times over the years.

On the other hand, Pat Benetar splits her songwriting with her husband, Neil Girardo, and they are billed together on their current tours, but she still remains the star. So, I don't know that songwriting credits would have given Lindsey the recognition he may have felt was missing. Maybe he would have been happy if he had been included in the accolades/fame/respect Stevie got for her songs, but the nature of fame sometimes doesn't allow for nuance like that.

At the end of the day, it feels like the personal/emotional conflict between them was fueled by the breakup and how fame changed them and their own inherent personality traits (self-involvement especially), and even if Lindsey had gotten more credit for his role in authorship, they probably would have ended up in the same fights. No matter how you assign credits, nothing would change the fact that he worked hard on songs that made his ex super famous and able to wield a lot of power in FM, while he was just not in that echelon of fame. The fact that they were able to work together as long as they did may be more exceptional than the fact that it had the ugly breakdown it did by the end.

Well said, and I can't disagree that it wouldn't have solved all their problems. She was getting a level of attention that he felt wasn't equivalent to the level of what she brought to the table-- and he is probably correct in that with regards to hit records. Left on her own she could never produce one of her songs as a hit record--she doesn't have the musical chops or the objectivity. He absolutely could write, play, engineer and produce one of his own songs and have it be a hit (and he has a couple of times)... BUT....she had a more compelling stage presence live AND was very smart in crafting a VISUAL image that has lived on all these years (aided very much by Herbie who took just the right photos of her). Stevie WANTED fame and was going to do anything to get it. And frankly his songs didn't necessarily connect emotionally with people the ways hers did.

Lindsey has always had a more mixed feeling about fame and a more cynical outlook about it, and wasn't always going to just "play the game" to get it like she was. So I agree, her fame is about far more than her songs, and like it or not, that's how showbiz works. She sometimes OVER estimated her talent, and he sometimes UNDER estimated her talent.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Thankyou for uploading this podcast!:]



I just want to clarify that I didn't upload the podcast - I merely posted it here.

[HerOwnSociety]

This is actually the first interview Stevie has done in probably a decade where I didn't find myself cringing. She didn't come across bitter or go down any of her classic self-indulgent, distorted views of reality :]

It reminded me of the Stevie that did an interview with Jim Ladd in 1998 for the Enchanted Tour. We haven't seen that side of Stevie in a really long time.

I think she realizes it good for her popularity to tease that her and Lindsey are on good terms. I'm not really buying that her self-serving, histrionic ways have gone anywhere. I hope Lindsey see's through it and gets to tell his side of things in the Apple+ documentary. I hate to see him steamrolled by her once again at this point in his life.

[DownOnRodeo]

It all really reinforces that they actually should have cowriting credit on many if not most of her FM songs. She writes a simple melody to her lyrics, but he composes almost all the musical parts. But her ego just won't allow it. He did a British interview some years back saying that many of her songs should have properly been cowrites (Rhiannon and Landslide for sure). By today's standards, they would be both credited.

I haven't listened to the podcast, but early-career Lindsey could have all the hookiest guitar meolodies and genuis arrangements in the world and still not write lyrics like early-career Stevie. I'm not sure what the default standard for "songwriting" credit should be, but it would be a mistake to unfairly minimise the value and power those lyrics have all on their own. No one's suggesting the songs would have succeeded had Stevie somehow produced them herself and played the instruments. But even if it wasn't Lindsey et al, those same lyrics, singer, performer and personality would, I think, surely have met with some degree of success even with a different music/arrangement/production.

Lindsey probably should have taken producer credits prior to Tusk, though.

[cbBen]

I haven't listened to the podcast, but early-career Lindsey could have all the hookiest guitar meolodies and genuis arrangements in the world and still not write lyrics like early-career Stevie. I'm not sure what the default standard for "songwriting" credit should be, but it would be a mistake to unfairly minimise the value and power those lyrics have all on their own. No one's suggesting the songs would have succeeded had Stevie somehow produced them herself and played the instruments. But even if it wasn't Lindsey et al, those same lyrics, singer, performer and personality would, I think, surely have met with some degree of success even with a different music/arrangement/production.

Lindsey probably should have taken producer credits prior to Tusk, though.

As Bella Donna demonstrates. As per the podcast, Lindsey received writing credit on "Frozen Love" because he wrote the instrumental passages between the lyrics. That is different from fashioning sympathetic guitar parts and such, as Lindsey did on Stevie's other songs. Her songs on BN are much better than his. She was the better songwriter through the seventies or early eighties. Sometime later in the eighties, Lindsey became the better songwriter.

[BrownEyedGirl26]

I just want to clarify that I didn't upload the podcast - I merely posted it here.

Okay sorry, I meant thankyou for posting it here!:nod:

[aleuzzi]

As much as Stevie annoys me these days, her views on song authorship align with mine. No matter how skeletal the song might be, if those lyrics and melodies and basic chord changes are yours then it’s your song.

Lindsey never could understand this. He was a producer. Producers arrange and produce. They can make magnificent soundscapes out of even the most basic structures. That he snaked a co-writing credit for Christine’s “That’s How I Feel” (and from “Little Lies”) was pretty lame. But Christine didn’t seem to care. She was secure in her abilities as a songwriter and could he generous to a fault.

Stevie was/is protective of her songs. Good for her.

Lindsey often goes out of his way to explain how vital he was to crafting arrangements and producing those records. He certainly was, but his insistence on his role in the song’s transformation from demo to finished product—often at the expense of undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy—sometimes make him seem petty and jealous. It makes him look smaller than he is. It makes him look a bit desperate.

[BigAl84]

As much as Stevie annoys me these days, her views on song authorship align with mine. No matter how skeletal the song might be, if those lyrics and melodies and basic chord changes are yours then it’s your song.

Lindsey never could understand this. He was a producer. Producers arrange and produce. They can make magnificent soundscapes out of even the most basic structures. That he snaked a co-writing credit for Christine’s “That’s How I Feel” (and from “Little Lies”) was pretty lame. But Christine didn’t seem to care. She was secure in her abilities as a songwriter and could he generous to a fault.

Stevie was/is protective of her songs. Good for her.

Lindsey often goes out of his way to explain how vital he was to crafting arrangements and producing those records. He certainly was, but his insistence on his role in the song’s transformation from demo to finished product—often at the expense of undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy—sometimes make him seem petty and jealous. It makes him look smaller than he is. It makes him look a bit desperate.

Hold up...
Christine was happy to explain in interviews that there were several songs that literally came from small "fragments" that she sent to Lindsey with full intention of having him take a pass a developing them into an actual song because she wasn't able to take the fragment any further. While none of us have heard these fragments - Christine definitely didn't say she had the chords and melody for "Feel About You" figured out and sent it to Lindsey for his flourishes. She openly talked about part of the magic of that project was the fact that she often had little fragments that he was able to develop further.

There's also a larger issue that involves the definition of melody. I'm not a music scholar, but I'm not confident that strumming some chords on a guitar or playing them on a piano is equivalent to crafting a melody. I looked this up and this is what I found:

The fundamental difference between melody and chord progression is how they are constructed. Melody is a sequence of single notes that follow each other. while a chord progression is made up of chords, which are groups of multiple notes played simultaneously. Melodies tend to be formed of single “melody lines” making them more fluid and adaptable. Chords on the other hand provide harmonic stability and fill out the sound.

Chord Progressions provide the foundation and support to give melodies context. The melody is designed to grab the listener’s attention while the chord progression works subtly in the background to enhance the song’s emotional depth.

Structurally, the melody often moves around, rising and falling in pitch while Chord progressions usually cycle predictably, offering stability and structure. This contrast between a fluent flowing melody and a steady chord progression represents the fundamentals of melodic composition and song structure.

I would argue that in a lot of instances, Stevie came to the table with some lyrics and a chord progression - but Lindsey figured out the actual melody. Dreams is a perfect example. I'm not saying Dreams isn't her song and that it should be credited as Lindsey's - they were a musical partnership in a lot of ways where he helped fill in each others gaps. There's always been a bit of an ego driven bias with Stevie when she talks about this exact dynamic and it's been inconsistent. Some days she's happy to admit that a lot of her Fleetwood Mac songs wouldn't be what they are without his help, other days/years it's "my demo was better, I don't want to work with Lindsey" etc etc. If you were to ask Stevie about Dreams, I don't think she would ever for a second say that Lindsey was responsible for developing the melody.

Undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy? There are countless interviews where Lindsey goes out of his way to say Stevie will come in with a beautiful lyric and then go into describing his contribution to the process. He even said in this podcast that he didn't feel she seeked his input on her lyrics and he didn't seek her input on his lyrics. They both knew and understand how they each contributed to each others work.

[aleuzzi]

Hold up...
Christine was happy to explain in interviews that there were several songs that literally came from small "fragments" that she sent to Lindsey with full intention of having him take a pass a developing them into an actual song because she wasn't able to take the fragment any further. While none of us have heard these fragments - Christine definitely didn't say she had the chords and melody for "Feel About You" figured out and sent it to Lindsey for his flourishes. She openly talked about part of the magic of that project was the fact that she often had little fragments that he was able to develop further.

There's also a larger issue that involves the definition of melody. I'm not a music scholar, but I'm not confident that strumming some chords on a guitar or playing them on a piano is equivalent to crafting a melody. I looked this up and this is what I found:

The fundamental difference between melody and chord progression is how they are constructed. Melody is a sequence of single notes that follow each other. while a chord progression is made up of chords, which are groups of multiple notes played simultaneously. Melodies tend to be formed of single “melody lines” making them more fluid and adaptable. Chords on the other hand provide harmonic stability and fill out the sound.

Chord Progressions provide the foundation and support to give melodies context. The melody is designed to grab the listener’s attention while the chord progression works subtly in the background to enhance the song’s emotional depth.

Structurally, the melody often moves around, rising and falling in pitch while Chord progressions usually cycle predictably, offering stability and structure. This contrast between a fluent flowing melody and a steady chord progression represents the fundamentals of melodic composition and song structure.

I would argue that in a lot of instances, Stevie came to the table with some lyrics and a chord progression - but Lindsey figured out the actual melody. Dreams is a perfect example. I'm not saying Dreams isn't her song and that it should be credited as Lindsey's - they were a musical partnership in a lot of ways where he helped fill in each others gaps. There's always been a bit of an ego driven bias with Stevie when she talks about this exact dynamic and it's been inconsistent. Some days she's happy to admit that a lot of her Fleetwood Mac songs wouldn't be what they are without his help, other days/years it's "my demo was better, I don't want to work with Lindsey" etc etc. If you were to ask Stevie about Dreams, I don't think she would ever for a second say that Lindsey was responsible for developing the melody.

Undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy? There are countless interviews where Lindsey goes out of his way to say Stevie will come in with a beautiful lyric and then go into describing his contribution to the process. He even said in this podcast that he didn't feel she seeked his input on her lyrics and he didn't seek her input on his lyrics. They both knew and understand how they each contributed to each others work.

Big disagree on some points. In many interviews for BuckVie, it was clear Christine sent Lindsey rough demos of her work. On the album those songs are Feel About You, Carnival Begin, and Game of Pretend. The fragments you are talking about were the ones she took from him for two additional tracks made in outright, songwriting collaborations with him: Red Sun and Too Far Gone. But Feel About You was a Christine song that Lindsey was given a cowrite to for his heavy presence in the production—and in “undermining” (his word) her demo version. Even in this context, that’s more production than cowriting.

Stevie had the chords and basic melody figured out for Dreams. It’s very rudimentary but it was there before Lindsey made it a masterpiece.

I’m not saying Lindsey wasn’t enormously important in creating the sound for these songs, but did the Beatles give George Martin co-writing credits? No. Lindsey has said he believed he should have been given co-writing credits on some of those classic songs. I think that’s absurd. He was producing those songs. Period.

[lbfan]

Lindsey has said he believed he should have been given co-writing credits on some of those classic songs. I think that’s absurd. He was producing those songs. Period.

I seem to recall Lindsey saying, in the context of the shared song writing credit that other bands utilized, that he MIGHT have deserved credit. I have never heard him say that he SHOULD have been given credit. If you have a link to where he said he SHOULD have been given credit, please provide. In a Q&A with Richard Dashut, he commented that Lindsey was always very generous in sharing song-writing credit. He felt some of his contributions were minimal and didn’t deserve any credit. He did not get any credit on the song Trouble, but felt his contributions on that song were greater than some on which he did receive credit.

I agree that he should have been given co-producer credit on Rumours and Tusk.

[jbrownsjr]

Lindsey often goes out of his way to explain how vital he was to crafting arrangements and producing those records. He certainly was, but his insistence on his role in the song’s transformation from demo to finished product—often at the expense of undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy—sometimes make him seem petty and jealous. It makes him look smaller than he is. It makes him look a bit desperate.

If you have to constantly tell everyone how you crafted the songs, there's probably a bit of untruth or lack of confidence going on.

That includes Christine, too. Despite her sales, she had a top 10 hit out of the gate without him producing. Of course, he did a great job on "I'd Rather Go Blind". That song never would have climbed so high without his work!:wavey:

[aleuzzi]

If you have to constantly tell everyone how you crafted the songs, there's probably a bit of untruth or lack of confidence going on.

That includes Christine, too. Despite her sales, she had a top 10 hit out of the gate without him. Of course, he did a great job on "I'd Rather Go Blind". That song never would have climbed so high without his work!:wavey:

Hahahaha! You’re a Treasure!

[dougl]

Great Frozen Love cover here:

https://youtu.be/TiXRFQYi_QI?si=E27KVqN8NuIZEPym

[bombaysaffires]

Big disagree on some points. In many interviews for BuckVie, it was clear Christine sent Lindsey rough demos of her work. On the album those songs are Feel About You, Carnival Begin, and Game of Pretend. The fragments you are talking about were the ones she took from him for two additional tracks made in outright, songwriting collaborations with him: Red Sun and Too Far Gone. But Feel About You was a Christine song that Lindsey was given a cowrite to for his heavy presence in the production—and in “undermining” (his word) her demo version. Even in this context, that’s more production than cowriting.

Stevie had the chords and basic melody figured out for Dreams. It’s very rudimentary but it was there before Lindsey made it a masterpiece.

I’m not saying Lindsey wasn’t enormously important in creating the sound for these songs, but did the Beatles give George Martin co-writing credits? No. Lindsey has said he believed he should have been given co-writing credits on some of those classic songs. I think that’s absurd. He was producing those songs. Period.

Agree, Stevie most definitely wrote her melodies-- she's SINGING them for pete's sake. Her chords are pretty minimal-- and she herself admits this saying she knows like 4 chords. I don't know how often he changed her actual chords, dunno, but he sure fleshed them out and made them full recordings.

He does say on an interview with a British guy interviewer (the two of them are sitting onstage in front of an audience and Lindsey has his guitar to illustrate some of his points) that some of her songs should probably have been cowrites. I'll have to find it.

[sue]

I am not a musician…even the Ukulele is beyond me..

But I think Stevie comes up with a melody, Lindsey fleshes it out with chords and arrangements.
Then adds key changes and atmospheric sounds.
His gift is hearing how a simple melody can become a song.

She just writes a simple melody

[Villavic]

I am not a musician…even the Ukulele is beyond me..

But I think Stevie comes up with a melody, Lindsey fleshes it out with chords and arrangements.
Then adds key changes and atmospheric sounds.
His gift is hearing how a simple melody can become a song.

She just rights a simple melody

I'm not a musician either. So I wonder what or how much do you have to study to learn chords, sheet music, etc.? Because I remember Lindsey saying in 1997...

Christine and I somehow had a common foundation, even though she was
trained and I was not...

So what did he study to become a musician?

[HomerMcvie]

I'm not a musician either. So I wonder what or how much do you have to study to learn chords, sheet music, etc.? Because I remember Lindsey saying in 1997...

Christine and I somehow had a common foundation, even though she was
trained and I was not...

So what did he study to become a musician?

I am a musician, and I'd fallen in love with Rumours, so I went out and bought the Rumours chord book, and taught myself guitar, and a year or two later, keyboards. IMO, keyboards are MUCH easier than guitar(since guitar requires callouses, it's kind of painful when you're a noobie)

Lindsey studied the Beach Boys and the Kingston Trio.

[bombaysaffires]

great interview, and starting around 19:30 Lindsey goes through some of what he brought to Dreams to make it a viable song. (Also great coz he talks in the BN section about the various jobs and gigs he did to make them money which of course Stevie conveniently leaves out in her telling of events, making it like she was the only one who worked).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIThSD4PAzs&t=10s

[ViscountViktor]

I loved the soloed vocal tracks on this pod - much better than the awful double tracked vocals on the record... WHYYYY.

Also makes me sad because after Rumours the Buckingham Nicks style harmonies between them completely stopped. Should have carried on for much longer than two FM albums....

[bombaysaffires]

I loved the soloed vocal tracks on this pod - much better than the awful double tracked vocals on the record... WHYYYY.

Also makes me sad because after Rumours the Buckingham Nicks style harmonies between them completely stopped. Should have carried on for much longer than two FM albums....

I have always wondered about this myself.... why oh why double them, especially hers??????