Was Nights in Estoril an outtake from the 80s?

[Villavic]

I usually listen just Christine´s songs from the Time album. So it would be unfair if I give a low rating to the other songs that I don't really remember. I’m not sure why I skip them. It must be my loyalty and fandom to the legendary and favorite lineup of mine. However I don’t skip Billy & Rick songs from BTM.

So it’s no surprise that caught my attention in this article was the NIE review. Was it written in the 80s? Was it an outtake from Tango or BTM? I don’t remember reading about it.

https://splendidfredmagazine.com/2021/05/03/those-strange-times-fleetwood-mac-time/

‘Nights in Estoril’, however, is the real highlight of the album. With its sweeping drumbeat, ‘Everywhere’ synth shimmer and McVie’s verses of the far and fantastical, it’s Christine desperate to recapture Tango in the Night. And she does a stellar job. It’s no ‘Little Lies’, but it could be an outtake from the band’s 80s years, undoubtedly. McVie initially didn’t want to appear on another Fleetwood Mac album by 1995, but was pressured by Warner Bros. to pen five tracks. Thank God. Without them, Time would be an irredeemable affair. Mason and Burnette even get to show off their six-string physique plenty on ‘Estoril’.

[Macfan4life]

Whoever wrote that must be my secret twin. I am not a fan of Time but Nights is one of my favorite Mac songs. It in my top 10 Chris songs. Without this song the album would suffer.
There is sort of a timestamp on the song with her mad love affair with Eddy. So it probably was written in the 80s. But the music was recorded by different musicians and sent to the Mac. Chris did not want to travel to the states and record with the band. This is another reason the song stands out like a sore thumb on the album. Chris submitted a polished gem. She took the bull by the horns.
I was not aware Burnette played on it because did she not use different guitarists?
Chris produced the song too which was rare for her and she did an amazing job.

[aleuzzi]

I’ve said to before and I’ll say it forever: I think TIME is a far better album than BTM, which is their worst. The arrangements on TIME are stripped back, not as much gloss. About half the album works really well. Talking to My Heart, Nothing Without You, Got It in for You, and all of Christine’s songs are pretty strong, I think.

I hate Mason’s tunes, and Mick’s final “opus.”

[Macfan4life]

There is something about this melody that haunts me. It always has. Its very Chris and even though she was mostly responsible for the song really reveals she WAS Fleetwood Mac. Its the most Fleetwood Mac sounding song on Time IMHO.

Piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l36YoyV3MDo

[Villavic]

I’ve said to before and I’ll say it forever: I think TIME is a far better album than BTM, which is their worst. The arrangements on TIME are stripped back, not as much gloss. About half the album works really well. Talking to My Heart, Nothing Without You, Got It in for You, and all of Christine’s songs are pretty strong, I think.

I hate Mason’s tunes, and Mick’s final “opus.”

Not that I dislike Time, but it doesn't move me at all, except for Christine songs. If I skip her songs, I'm feeling I'm listening any new band.

I liked BTM, not much but I enjoyed some songs. I think I liked it because it hadn't been that long since the Tango Tour and I liked the lineup, despite Stevie's performance and missing Lindsey. But I admit that the arrangements were disappointing. That album could have sounded better.

[HomerMcvie]

I'm with Tony, I like Time better than BTM. BTM is too long, with too much filler (SYW, anyone?). Brevity isn't a gift FM possesses. Just because a cd can be 80 minutes, doesn't mean it SHOULD be 80 minutes.

[blinker12]

But the music was recorded by different musicians and sent to the Mac. Chris did not want to travel to the states and record with the band. This is another reason the song stands out like a sore thumb on the album. Chris submitted a polished gem. She took the bull by the horns.

She used different musicians for her tracks?? I’d never heard this before! Were the musicians uncredited? (I’ve never owned a physical copy of Time, I’m afraid…)

[HomerMcvie]

She used different musicians for her tracks?? I’d never heard this before! Were the musicians uncredited? (I’ve never owned a physical copy of Time, I’m afraid…)

Wow. WHY NOT?

[Macfan4life]

She used different musicians for her tracks?? I’d never heard this before! Were the musicians uncredited? (I’ve never owned a physical copy of Time, I’m afraid…)
Michael Thompson is credited for guitar on all of her songs on Time. If I remember correctly she did not want to record with the band in CA and recorded many of her songs in England and sent them over. I should not have said "musicians" but musician since she did not want to travel and did not get along with another guitarist. She also produced the song. I never knew any of this either until about 10 years ago on this board.

Although when you think about it, she had to have had other "musicians" to record in England besides a guitar player. However no one else is credited except the guitarist who played on all her songs. The guitar playing is excellent on that song. I researched him and he has played with endless major recording artists. I suppose that is what you call a "studio musician." Maybe he was hired out of desperation in crafting some sort of song or demo to send to the Mac.
Time information is so sketchy and I wish we knew more.

[SteveMacD]

I still think Christine’s songs were from the Spring, 1993 demo sessions, before Bekka and Dave were in the band.

Bands on big labels basically record an album twice. They’ll record demos in a smaller (but totally professional) studio to work out arrangements, harmonies, etc. Then, they’ll redo everything in a bigger studio.

That’s why Billy’s on “I Do.” He was still in the band for the early demo sessions. Michael Thompson was hired for the sessions because Fleetwood Mac didn’t have a lead guitarist at that time.

Christine pulled out at some point, but she’s on Billy’s songs and one or two of Bekka’s. So, maybe she showed up on the days they weren’t working on Dave’s stuff and procrastinated letting them work on her songs, before pulling out of the sessions altogether.

The band submitted a version of the album without her, but the label rejected it. However, since she was basically done, they just used the demos. She may have come back to layer on some harmonies and keyboards to the other songs, but I doubt she spent weeks with them.

However, throughout that era, Christine was always mentioned as being a member of the band in interviews and Bekka’s Rolling Stone interview makes it clear that Christine was in communication with the band on some level throughout. And, IIRC, Christine expressed annoyance with how long it took to make the album because of all the touring the others had been doing in that AOL session. Finally, John Courage was the one organizing the recording sessions, and I doubt he would continue to be involved if his client wasn’t part of the sessions, but who knows?

[Macfan4life]

I still think Christine’s songs were from the Spring, 1993 demo sessions, before Bekka and Dave were in the band.

Bands on big labels basically record an album twice. They’ll record demos in a smaller (but totally professional) studio to work out arrangements, harmonies, etc. Then, they’ll redo everything in a bigger studio.

That’s why Billy’s on “I Do.” He was still in the band for the early demo sessions. Michael Thompson was hired for the sessions because Fleetwood Mac didn’t have a lead guitarist at that time.

Christine pulled out at some point, but she’s on Billy’s songs and one or two of Bekka’s. So, maybe she showed up on the days they weren’t working on Dave’s stuff and procrastinated letting them work on her songs, before pulling out of the sessions altogether.

The band submitted a version of the album without her, but the label rejected it. However, since she was basically done, they just used the demos. She may have come back to layer on some harmonies and keyboards to the other songs, but I doubt she spent weeks with them.

However, throughout that era, Christine was always mentioned as being a member of the band in interviews and Bekka’s Rolling Stone interview makes it clear that Christine was in communication with the band on some level throughout. And, IIRC, Christine expressed annoyance with how long it took to make the album because of all the touring the others had been doing in that AOL session. Finally, John Courage was the one organizing the recording sessions, and I doubt he would continue to be involved if his client wasn’t part of the sessions, but who knows?
I was hoping you would show up
A thread like this needs you
;)
I think you may be correct and this explains why Nights is so polished with another guitar player. It could have been recorded prior to hiring the other guitarist.
What would we do without you?

[Villavic]

With all the information I'm discovering in this thread, it's harder for me to call TIME a Fleetwood Mac album.

[SteveMacD]

With all the information I'm discovering in this thread, it's harder for me to call TIME a Fleetwood Mac album.

I dunno. I don’t really see how it’s all that different from Jeremy not playing on Peter’s songs and not playing at all on Then Play on or how Lindsey didn’t have the others on his songs all that much after Rumours.

[Macfan4life]

With all the information I'm discovering in this thread, it's harder for me to call TIME a Fleetwood Mac album.
To be fair it really was a hodge podge to keep the band going. Chris was half in, Billy came back but not Rick. Another guitarist was used before hiring Dave Mason. Bekka at least worked with the Zoo so it felt like The Zoo featuring Fleetwood Mac.
Even the record label was all messed up. They never promoted the album after promising to do so with Chris's involvement.
The album sold 36,000 copies by 1996 and this is when albums were still selling.

[Mr Scarrott]

I still think ChristineÂ’s songs were from the Spring, 1993 demo sessions, before Bekka and Dave were in the band.

Bands on big labels basically record an album twice. TheyÂ’ll record demos in a smaller (but totally professional) studio to work out arrangements, harmonies, etc. Then, theyÂ’ll redo everything in a bigger studio.

That’s why Billy’s on “I Do.” He was still in the band for the early demo sessions. Michael Thompson was hired for the sessions because Fleetwood Mac didn’t have a lead guitarist at that time.

Christine pulled out at some point, but sheÂ’s on BillyÂ’s songs and one or two of BekkaÂ’s. So, maybe she showed up on the days they werenÂ’t working on DaveÂ’s stuff and procrastinated letting them work on her songs, before pulling out of the sessions altogether.

The band submitted a version of the album without her, but the label rejected it. However, since she was basically done, they just used the demos. She may have come back to layer on some harmonies and keyboards to the other songs, but I doubt she spent weeks with them.

However, throughout that era, Christine was always mentioned as being a member of the band in interviews and BekkaÂ’s Rolling Stone interview makes it clear that Christine was in communication with the band on some level throughout. And, IIRC, Christine expressed annoyance with how long it took to make the album because of all the touring the others had been doing in that AOL session. Finally, John Courage was the one organizing the recording sessions, and I doubt he would continue to be involved if his client wasnÂ’t part of the sessions, but who knows?

I think Steve is correct re 1993. There were certainly plans for Fleetwood Mac to record in April 1993 based on this pre-Clinton inauguration interview in January. Who exactly was there though is a bit open to question- Chris, Mick and John, obviously. At some point Billy left- he wasn't really a lead guitarist so this would also explain why the sessionman Michael Thompson was largely credited for guitars on Christine's songs- he's credited for "additional guitars" on I do so maybe Billy contributed some guitar work later on as well -although Dave Mason could have done this, despite Christine's animus to him. I reckon Billy and Bekka overdubbed some backing vocals on some of Christine's songs in 1994/5 on, although they're not really terribly prominent on them. I could be wrong, though. Worrying about how Time was put together is a bit esoteric...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lc7hE9TIr0&t=493s

[Villavic]

With all the information I'm discovering in this thread, it's harder for me to call TIME a Fleetwood Mac album.

I was reading again that Rolling Stone interview to Bekka, March 2023. I didn't remember this question, but it's funny (but not surprising) how Mick thought later about Time. Sorry Bekka but I must say I don't agree with you about the and whomever else.

In Mick’s second book, he said there were “too many essential pieces missing” from your lineup and he regrets going out under the name Fleetwood Mac. Do you agree?

F--k no. Fleetwood Mac is Fleetwood and Mac and whomever else. Who knows what the f*** is going to happen to other people? Fleetwood and Mac are best friends. They are Johnny and Mick. They’re going to keep going no matter what. They’ve been showing that for 50 friggin’ years now. I’m just proud to be one of the entities of it. I wasn’t disposable, but I felt a little bit disposable. Basically, put it this way, when their management said, “Stevie only does two or three shows a week,” I was like, “Let’s do five. I’m taking this to the bank. Let’s do this. I’m never going to let you down. Let’s do this as many times as you want to until your queen comes back.”

[SteveMacD]

I was reading again that Rolling Stone interview to Bekka, March 2023. I didn't remember this question, but it's funny (but not surprising) how Mick thought later about Time. Sorry Bekka but I must say I don't agree with you about the and whomever else.

In Mick’s second book, he said there were “too many essential pieces missing” from your lineup and he regrets going out under the name Fleetwood Mac. Do you agree?
”

Time was the 12th Fleetwood Mac album to feature Christine McVie as an official member and the 15th she appeared on in some capacity.

The first album with those three had Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer. The sixth album with those three had Bob Welch, Bob Weston, and Dave Walker. The ninth album with those three had Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. The twelfth fifteenth album with those three had Billy Burnette, Bekka Bramlett, and Dave Mason. It’s literally whomever else.

I’ll concede that the public image of Fleetwood Mac was fairly cemented by 1993, and I think the label should have intervened before that lineup ever saw the light of day, however, Bekka wasn’t wrong that it was Mick and John’s band.

[BLY]

I like the Time album and it totally belongs in the Fleetwood Mac catalog. I think all the songs work well together with the exception of Blow by Blow. I still believe this is an important chapter in the soap opera of Fleetwood Mac.

[Villavic]

I’ll concede that the public image of Fleetwood Mac was fairly cemented by 1993

Yes, that's the reason I don't feel Time as a Mac album. But it's just my feeling, my perception. The same feeling that makes me think no reunion is feasible anymore, even if John were there with Mick.

[SteveMacD]

Here’s what I don’t understand.

The label obviously wanted a Rumours lineup reunion, knew that’s the direction they were going to push Lindsey, Stevie, and the band, and that they had zero interest in Time (although were legally obligated to release the album).

If they knew they weren’t going to promote Time, why wouldn’t they have pulled I Do, Nights In Estoril, and All Over Again and saved those for the Rumours lineup?

The (Rumours) band could have had a new studio album finished by late 1996, done the live reunion TV show in early 1997 in conjunction with the released of the new studio album, and released The Dance at the conclusion of the tour.

TIME
Talkin’ To My Heart
Winds of Change
Blow By Blow
Hollywood
The Bigger The Love
Nothing Without You
Sooner or Later
Dreamin’ The Dream
I Wonder Why
I Got It In For You
These Strange Times

ALL OVER AGAIN
My Little Demon
Easy Come, Easy Go
Twisted
Miranda
I Do
Steal Your Heart Away
Temporary One
At Last
Nights In Estoril
Bleed To Love Her
Sweet Girl
All Over Again

[Macfan4life]

Here’s what I don’t understand.

The label obviously wanted a Rumours lineup reunion, knew that’s the direction they were going to push Lindsey, Stevie, and the band, and that they had zero interest in Time (although were legally obligated to release the album).

If they knew they weren’t going to promote Time, why wouldn’t they have pulled I Do, Nights In Estoril, and All Over Again and saved those for the Rumours lineup?

The (Rumours) band could have had a new studio album finished by late 1996, done the live reunion TV show in early 1997 in conjunction with the released of the new studio album, and released The Dance at the conclusion of the tour.

TIME
Talkin’ To My Heart
Winds of Change
Blow By Blow
Hollywood
The Bigger The Love
Nothing Without You
Sooner or Later
Dreamin’ The Dream
I Wonder Why
I Got It In For You
These Strange Times

ALL OVER AGAIN
My Little Demon
Easy Come, Easy Go
Twisted
Miranda
I Do
Steal Your Heart Away
Temporary One
At Last
Nights In Estoril
Bleed To Love Her
Sweet Girl
All Over Again
That's looking back with wishful thinking. Didn't you say that talk of the Dance was as early as New Years Eve 1995? When Time was recorded I don't think they saw a reunion as a possibility. Chris wanted to move to England. She was almost forced to record Time. Stevie was still mad at Mick.
Would you not say that the Time bomb (funny pun) facilitated The Dance?
You have probably with the most knowledge of the Time era.
Of course if you knew the future you have made them record an album in 1996 and tour in 1997. But when Time was getting its footing 1993, 1994 and 1995 a reunion seemed unlikey.

[SteveMacD]

That's looking back with wishful thinking. Didn't you say that talk of the Dance was as early as New Years Eve 1995? When Time was recorded I don't think they saw a reunion as a possibility. Chris wanted to move to England. She was almost forced to record Time. Stevie was still mad at Mick.
Would you not say that the Time bomb (funny pun) facilitated The Dance?
You have probably with the most knowledge of the Time era.
Of course if you knew the future you have made them record an album in 1996 and tour in 1997. But when Time was getting its footing 1993, 1994 and 1995 a reunion seemed unlikey.

Lots to unpack, so TL:DR, after watching their contemporaries have successful reunions and a premier alternative rock band have a minor hit with one of their songs, the label and various entities were actively working on a reunion before Time ever went to press. Every time this subject comes up, I find new details, but it usually creates more questions than answers.
——
Reunion talk likely started heating up in late Fall, 1994. The Eagles and Page/Plant had just had massively successful reunions, the Street Angel wrapped up on Sept. 18, and then on October 4, Smashing Pumpkins released a cover of “Landslide” that was a minor hit. While Lindsey and Fleetwood Mac were relegated to the dinner club/opening act/packaged tour circuit and Stevie was headlining the state fair circuit, one of the premier alternative rock bands was having a minor hit with one of their songs. (Mick, John, and Christine had to have been having “Black Magic Woman” déjà vu.)

In late-1994, Mick was interviewed about his restaurant. He was engaged to Lynn by that point (it was the first I’d heard of her). Anyway, it said Stevie attended the restaurant’s Halloween party. While I don’t know any of the details, there was apparently some type of détente.

So, Stevie finished a disappointing (to her) tour for an album she didn’t like, a cover of one of her Fleetwood Mac songs was suddenly getting buzz two weeks later, and then she was quietly hanging out with Mick four weeks after that.
——
At some point, Lindsey made a cameo appearance on Time because he was recording in the same studio as the band, which means he was working with Rob Cavallo by that point. Billy said Stevie’s lawyer were around when they were finishing up the album and that he warned Bekka and Dave the end was imminent. Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey Buckingham, and Stevie’s lawyers were in the same place at the same time.

Time was released on October 10, 1995. It supposed to have been released a few weeks earlier, but Lynn’s father died in late August. The band’s last tour stop was on Sept. 1 and Mick references the passing in the liner notes, which means the liners were done sometime in September.

That tells me the label was planning on only making a small batch of albums. Don’t you think it’s funny that there was minimal promotion, the album only sold 36,000 copies, yet there aren’t tons of used or cut-out copies out there? So, the label knew in September they weren’t going to promote it and, via Rob Cavallo, were actively campaigning for a reunion.

Which now makes me wonder how much of Christine’s departure had to do with Dave Mason and how much had to do with reading the tea leaves. Not that there weren’t issues with Dave, but it’s not hard to imagine Christine wanting to pull the plug on that lineup and have her songs on a viable Fleetwood Mac album once the “Landslide” cover became a minor hit. All of their careers were in the toilet, yet a relevant band was having success with their music. The problem was she contractually couldn’t.

We still don’t actually know when Christine bailed, where in the timeline the Smile sessions and Richard bailing on Fleetwood Mac were, how far along they were when Billy rejoined, when the band submitted the rejected album, and when Lindsey’s sessions began at the studio. The band’s touring schedule for 1995 really doesn’t provide much help. They did two shows in Japan and one in Puerto Rico in April, a few weeks in Europe from late-May to mid-June, and one last haul from mid-July through September 1. So, there was a month off in April/May, a month off in June/July, the tour ended on September 1, and the album was released on October 10.
—
Still, if I’m WB, I’m pulling the three most mainstream songs. Maybe they could be used on a new Fleetwood Mac album, maybe they could be used as “new” tracks on complications. OTOH, maybe the label was hesitant to even discuss a new studio album before seeing how the TV reunion went, first.

[WalkAThinLine.]

I think Steve is correct re 1993. There were certainly plans for Fleetwood Mac to record in April 1993 based on this pre-Clinton inauguration interview in January. Who exactly was there though is a bit open to question- Chris, Mick and John, obviously. At some point Billy left- he wasn't really a lead guitarist so this would also explain why the sessionman Michael Thompson was largely credited for guitars on Christine's songs- he's credited for "additional guitars" on I do so maybe Billy contributed some guitar work later on as well -although Dave Mason could have done this, despite Christine's animus to him. I reckon Billy and Bekka overdubbed some backing vocals on some of Christine's songs in 1994/5 on, although they're not really terribly prominent on them. I could be wrong, though. Worrying about how Time was put together is a bit esoteric...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lc7hE9TIr0&t=493s

Didn't Billy publish a book within the last five or so years? What did he have to say about the Time sessions?

[Macfan4life]

I don't necessarily disagree with you Steve but it makes no sense for a record company not to promote one of their albums from a band with a mainstream name. Yanking Chris songs from Time would have hurt it even more.
Ideally it would have been wonderful to scoop everyone up in mid 1995 record another album and do a tour the following year.
I wish Chris was allowed to record on SYW. I also wish Chris could have come back in 2013 before the Unleashed tour and they recorded an album and went on with a proper farewell tour.
I say this all the time but its ridiculously sad the last album of these 5 was Mirage when they all appeared to record and craft an album together. However Stevie was not around much for Mirage either. Tusk was mostly a Lindsey album so you literally have to go back to Rumours for all 5 working everyday in the studio together to record an album.

[Villavic]

Didn't Billy publish a book within the last five or so years? What did he have to say about the Time sessions?

I don't know about the book, but in the RS 2022 interview, he mentioned a bit about the album:

Time was the first one without Stevie. I’m sure you knew it would be tough to sell that without her.

Oh yeah. We all knew it would be a tough road for radio back then.

You wrote Dreaming the Dream” with Bekka.

I remember us writing that in a hotel room somewhere. I brought it back into the band. Dave, Christine, and Mick loved it, so it made the record. When you brought a new song in, everyone had to like it. It was something the band voted on. I still carry that to this day. There’s a lot of things I learned in Fleetwood Mac that work.

When you toured in 1995, there was no Stevie, Christine, or Lindsey. It must have been tricky to go out without at least one of them.

It was tricky, but it was still a good band. The people loved it. I sang Don’t Stop” and “Go Your Own Way.” People want to hear the hits when they come to a concert. When we put out Behind the Mask, we put up a list of all the songs we want to do. At the first night, we’d do a bunch of the new songs. But we’d just go back to doing the hits after the first night. People don’t want to hear the new stuff.

https://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=1279891&postcount=6

[SteveMacD]

I don't necessarily disagree with you Steve but it makes no sense for a record company not to promote one of their albums from a band with a mainstream name. Yanking Chris songs from Time would have hurt it even more.

Lindsey, Stevie, and the Time band were all failing while their contemporaries were having successful reunions and The Smashing Pumpkins were having success with one of their songs. WB wasn’t going to promote Time. However, WB wasn’t necessarily committed to a new studio album by the classic lineup, just a reunion special in conjunction with Viacom, Clear Channel, and Ticketmaster.

When alternative rock took over, legacy artists generally didn’t have success with new studio releases. Since WB had already paid for the Time songs, they decided to release what they had when they could, guaranteeing at least some measure of recouping versus the reunion potentially failing and getting nothing back on their investment. Nobody knew what to expect in 1995, especially from Stevie, who’d gotten some pretty brutal reviews on her 1994 tour.

Things were fluid at WB after Mo and Lenny left in 1994. The bean counters took over. There was no loyalty left. They dropped Van Halen after one flop, and think of the tens of millions of albums they sold.