20 years since Say You Will...

[Tusky]

What do you think should have happened after?
A new album in 2009 (alongside the Unleashed tour)
Another one in 2013
A final album with the Fireflies called 'On With The Show' and a documentary about the 'making of'...

[sleepless child]

Another album, especially when Chris came back.

[Macfan4life]

Wow, hard to believe its been 20 years. Although when you watch the documentary you are surprised how young they are. Makes you feel old. I remember driving back from the mall listening to the CD. Today malls dont exist and neither do CD players in new cars. This was an odd time for the band. I was so disappointed with Stevie's 2001 solo album. I wanted to like it so bad but it was so meh. Nothing creative and a bit boring. I did not care much for SYW either. It really needed Chris. However after several months of running down the beach to it every night, I started to hear and notice the creativity in the songs. Maybe the headphones and constant play did it but I suddenly fell in love with the album. Everyone Finds Out is a masterpiece especially with headphones. The next year we got a solo album from Chris which was an unexpected surprise. We thought she retired for good. I hate to paint with a broad brush but everything about this era was not that great. 9/11 changed everything. This music brings back some misery. Having said all this, I am thankful for the album and the band marching on. Although without Chris, I had no interest in seeing them in concert.

[jmn3]

Wow. 20 years. Holy hell.

I remember the day my local classic rock station made a big deal about debuting the new Fleetwood Mac single (Peacekeeper) at like 2pm on a random Tuesday or something. I was still an intern just a few weeks shy of the same company hiring me officially and I was in my little cubicle listening super low on a clock radio I had in my desk. I had to make sure I was there and ready right at 2 - lol this in itself makes this entire thing seem SO LONG AGO!

I still think SYW was a solid album but it was bloated and missed Christine terribly. Remove about 4 songs each from S&L and add 3-4 from Chris’ 2004 album and it would’ve been much better.

After SYW and that long tour, they needed a break and I think the world needed a break from the band. They probably should have recorded another album in 2008 and toured behind that instead of just going into the tour only mode that they did in 2009. There was at least the attempt at creativity with SYW and the tour for the most part reflected a willingness to devote a fair number of tracks to new songs. Without Chris we also got additional things in the set like Beautiful Child, Eyes of the World, a non-dragging NGBA, etc.

The real WHAT IF (IMO) was after 1997. They NEVER should have waited to do something until 2002 with a 2003 release. It was too long and they killed that amazing level of momentum that came from The Dance. 1998 should have been a retooled Fleetwood Mac/Buckingham Nicks at 25 celebration. The world hadn’t tired of Stevie and Lindsey’s nonsense and quite frankly it was at its peak. Chris refusing to go on and their willingness to just go their own ways after the Grammys is one in a long list of missed opportunities. If nothing else, Say You Will should’ve been two years earlier.

[Macfan4life]

Wow. 20 years. Holy hell.

I remember the day my local classic rock station made a big deal about debuting the new Fleetwood Mac single (Peacekeeper) at like 2pm on a random Tuesday or something. I was still an intern just a few weeks shy of the same company hiring me officially and I was in my little cubicle listening super low on a clock radio I had in my desk. I had to make sure I was there and ready right at 2 - lol this in itself makes this entire thing seem SO LONG AGO!

I still think SYW was a solid album but it was bloated and missed Christine terribly. Remove about 4 songs each from S&L and add 3-4 from Chris’ 2004 album and it would’ve been much better.

After SYW and that long tour, they needed a break and I think the world needed a break from the band. They probably should have recorded another album in 2008 and toured behind that instead of just going into the tour only mode that they did in 2009. There was at least the attempt at creativity with SYW and the tour for the most part reflected a willingness to devote a fair number of tracks to new songs. Without Chris we also got additional things in the set like Beautiful Child, Eyes of the World, a non-dragging NGBA, etc.

The real WHAT IF (IMO) was after 1997. They NEVER should have waited to do something until 2002 with a 2003 release. It was too long and they killed that amazing level of momentum that came from The Dance. 1998 should have been a retooled Fleetwood Mac/Buckingham Nicks at 25 celebration. The world hadn’t tired of Stevie and Lindsey’s nonsense and quite frankly it was at its peak. Chris refusing to go on and their willingness to just go their own ways after the Grammys is one in a long list of missed opportunities. If nothing else, Say You Will should’ve been two years earlier.
Yes. However Stevie was working on her 6th solo album for years. Stevie went right into Enchanted in 1998 and then TISRL in 1999. She almost had a RAL DeJa'Vu where she did not use what was recorded in those years and brought Sheryl in to start all over again. Stevie was revamping her solo career. I agree, SYW should have come out in 1999 but Stevie was working on her revitalized solo career. The biggest mystery is during this era you would think they would have embraced the Buckingham/Nicks album and performed some of it live. My hunch is someone wanted to not stray from Fleetwood Mac and not be accused them of being a duo again. But that is just a hunch. It was the perfect time to do it yet a lost opportunity.

[aleuzzi]

I remember feeling tepid about SYW’s release because of Christine’s absence. I played the album and initially thought “meh, kinda’ soulless.” But then about a month later I began to LOVE a lot of it. The mid section drags but there are about ten really good songs surrounding it.

Always hated: Come, WTWCT, Peacekeeper, Silver Girl, Goodbye Baby
Feel mixed about: Murrow, Running, Smile at You
Love: the rest...

Then, a year later came IN THE MEANTIME and I was so crazy happy.

[jmn3]

Yes. However Stevie was working on her 6th solo album for years. Stevie went right into Enchanted in 1998 and then TISRL in 1999. She almost had a RAL DeJa'Vu where she did not use what was recorded in those years and brought Sheryl in to start all over again. Stevie was revamping her solo career. I agree, SYW should have come out in 1999 but Stevie was working on her revitalized solo career. The biggest mystery is during this era you would think they would have embraced the Buckingham/Nicks album and performed some of it live. My hunch is someone wanted to not stray from Fleetwood Mac and not be accused them of being a duo again. But that is just a hunch. It was the perfect time to do it yet a lost opportunity.

Agree that Stevie capitalized on the momentum and Chris’ departure to restart her solo career. But I think there would’ve been a lot more money in them pivoting to a 4-piece in 1998 and embracing B/N which was celebrating its 25th anniversary. I think with Chris deciding to step away (key difference here from
2018 of course is that Chris like Lindsey in 1987, chose to walk away) they could have done that with great success and acceptance. It would’ve been a unique way to bridge the gap between what the world had just seen as FM and what FM would end up being for the next 15-17 years. A FMBN tour in 1998 that went outside the US and then a new album in 1999 or 2000 would’ve been much more preferable than what they actually did.

It’s all a moot point now but it was such an interesting time and it’s hard to imagine that these people who love money so much just let the Fleetwood Mac circus fade away for 5 years. The world was so different by 2003 than what it was in 1998.

In the real world, after SYW, another album as a 4-piece in the 2008-10 era and a final album with the fivesome in 2015-16 would have been the way to go. What ended up actually happening is the dumbest of the options one could put together.

[HomerMcvie]

Agree that Stevie capitalized on the momentum and Chris’ departure to restart her solo career. But I think there would’ve been a lot more money in them pivoting to a 4-piece in 1998 and embracing B/N which was celebrating its 25th anniversary. I think with Chris deciding to step away (key difference here from
2018 of course is that Chris like Lindsey in 1987, chose to walk away) they could have done that with great success and acceptance. It would’ve been a unique way to bridge the gap between what the world had just seen as FM and what FM would end up being for the next 15-17 years. A FMBN tour in 1998 that went outside the US and then a new album in 1999 or 2000 would’ve been much more preferable than what they actually did.

It’s all a moot point now but it was such an interesting time and it’s hard to imagine that these people who love money so much just let the Fleetwood Mac circus fade away for 5 years. The world was so different by 2003 than what it was in 1998.

In the real world, after SYW, another album as a 4-piece in the 2008-10 era and a final album with the fivesome in 2015-16 would have been the way to go. What ended up actually happening is the dumbest of the options one could put together.

I can only guess that they knew it would be LAME without Christine. Which it was. The THREE of them is what made them successful. The balance.

They've always been terrible business people. Mick's the card carrier, but they were always too self involved to worry about conquering the world(except Irving, the conqueror... god bless his money grubbing tiny heart).

[Tusky]

This was the closest we got!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmzWejMa-IY

[DownOnRodeo]

Makes you feel old. I remember driving back from the mall listening to the CD. Today malls dont exist and neither do CD players in new cars.

I rode to the shops and back to buy it, listening to it on one of those portable CD players while cycling.

WTWCT was a fun fresh start to the album, but I never cared for it on its own until I saw them play it live.
The GOS tracks continue to be a joy for me, but never gelled well with the newly recorded tracks.
I enjoyed the smack-in-the-face provocativeness of the track ordering, but as a single disc it ends up as somewhat bloaty and incoherent and a few tracks too long. The original two-disc idea, or two different albums, or a more conservative track ordering (putting long wild songs on the back half) may have worked better.
One of the attributes of Christine's that's lacking on SYW is shorter songs. SYW average track length is 4:15. The standard 3:30 pop song duration must work for a reason, and Christine often 'hit it on the nail.'
The documentary shows that SnL were at cross-purposes about the whole endeavor from day one. In terms of investment in the process, it looks akin to a repeat of the recording of Tango, but without a Christine or Sandy Stewart to serve up enough hits and pleasant vocals to round out SnL's rough edges.
But in the final analysis, it was a gift to have a "new" Lindsey/FM album and tour.

[DownOnRodeo]

This was the closest we got!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmzWejMa-IY

They should have released it as an album.

"Buckingham Nicks - A Few Bars"

[Macfan4life]

I just had another memory. When Peacekeeper was released and performed on the Today show, the Iraq war was about to begin. I remember thinking it was sort of spooky and a message that had perfect timing.
I dont disagree that its a more "perfect" album removing tracks. But I will take all the tracks I can get from a band that rarely records albums at that time. So I sort of appreciated Lindsey in not wanting the typical commercial perfect set. The album is long and can wander. But its not filler. I will stop there because I will never be able to convince anyone here its a good album.

[jmn3]

I can only guess that they knew it would be LAME without Christine. Which it was. The THREE of them is what made them successful. The balance.

They've always been terrible business people. Mick's the card carrier, but they were always too self involved to worry about conquering the world(except Irving, the conqueror... god bless his money grubbing tiny heart).

How dare you suggest that Irving Azoff has even a tiny heart!

[sue]

I just had another memory. When Peacekeeper was released and performed on the Today show, the Iraq war was about to begin. I remember thinking it was sort of spooky and a message that had perfect timing.
I dont disagree that its a more "perfect" album removing tracks. But I will take all the tracks I can get from a band that rarely records albums at that time. So I sort of appreciated Lindsey in not wanting the typical commercial perfect set. The album is long and can wander. But its not filler. I will stop there because I will never be able to convince anyone here its a good album.

No need to convince me ..I liked it from the day I bought it.
But it’s such a slow burner and took a couple of years to really get into it.
Nowadays I love it…yes it’s long, and there are a couple of songs I might ditch…but so what.

[Tusky]

At the time I was all in. But in retrospect, songs like Thrown Down, Friend, You Are, Down On Rodeo and even Running Through The Garden seem to give a much better through line to where the band ended up. SYW was a valiant attempt at a sonic re-start which didn't end up going anywhere. I sometimes think the Extended Play EP and Buckingham McVie was more in tune with their catalogue now looking back.

[Macfan4life]

It seems that Stevie was not happy during this era? She did not enjoy the SYW recording process (or at least it seems). The entire band was disappointed in its lack of great success. Stevie seemed going through the motions on stage. Perhaps the cash grab tours of Unleashed kept her going with the Mac.
Makes you wonder what would have happened to the band if Christine did not come back. After the Unleashed tour, would the band have ceased to exist? Even though the band had a bumpy ending, Chris's return did revitalize the band till the end.

[HomerMcvie]

How dare you suggest that Irving Azoff has even a tiny heart!

He may be Satan, but he's our Satan- Don Henley

If I were an artist, I'd want the little b*stard managing me.

[Tusky]

It seems that Stevie was not happy during this era? She did not enjoy the SYW recording process (or at least it seems). The entire band was disappointed in its lack of great success. Stevie seemed going through the motions on stage. Perhaps the cash grab tours of Unleashed kept her going with the Mac.
Makes you wonder what would have happened to the band if Christine did not come back. After the Unleashed tour, would the band have ceased to exist? Even though the band had a bumpy ending, Chris's return did revitalize the band till the end.

Yes and wasn't there a rumour she didn't really want to do the Christine tour but felt she had to? I think the bickering with Lindsey had got back again.
I was listening to Swan Song again and it seems to be about Lindsey's annoyance she wouldn't record again. What was brewing had reached a boiling point...

"But is it right to keep me waiting?
Is it right to make me hold out so long?
Yeah, is it right to keep me waiting?
In the shadow of our swan song"

[elle]

reading what people are writing here makes it crystal clear:

1. SYW should have been recorded and released in the late 90s, soon after The Dance
2. Stevie is the only one among the 5 with a good business sense and after The Dance brought FM back, resurrecting her own career was her priority, and the band was not
3. the rest of FM members have no business sense whatsoever, they are just musicians and artists, and agreed on waiting for Stevie and kept chasing their own tails instead of insisting on FM forging ahead
4. Lindsey's known procrastination did not help (recall, he had a solo album done in like 1997-8 but only presented it to the label in 2001!)

so it comes down to who is better at business and marketing in the band, and what are their goals.

[jmn3]

It seems that Stevie was not happy during this era? She did not enjoy the SYW recording process (or at least it seems). The entire band was disappointed in its lack of great success. Stevie seemed going through the motions on stage. Perhaps the cash grab tours of Unleashed kept her going with the Mac.
Makes you wonder what would have happened to the band if Christine did not come back. After the Unleashed tour, would the band have ceased to exist? Even though the band had a bumpy ending, Chris's return did revitalize the band till the end.

Well they basically did another Unleashed tour in 2013 before Chris came back the next year. I think Mick and Lindsey assumed there would be a new album in 2012 to tour behind and when Stevie wouldn’t record they compromised with the EP. If Chris didn’t come back I kind of feel like that 2013 tour would’ve been it. The 2014-15 tour only happened because of Chris and again I’m
sure the hope would’ve been to record something to tour behind but yet again someone wasn’t interested. So we got another Unleashed tour - or The Dance 2.0.

Without a Chris return, what happened in 2018 couldn’t have happened. I think with Stevie continuing to gain popularity as she did in the mid 2010’s, she would’ve been done with FM and LB and kept doing solo tours. Maybe by 2019 they would’ve found their way back to another cash grab tour but if they pushed it off too much Covid would’ve killed it all. Chris definitely added 5 more years to the bands life.

[aleuzzi]

reading what people are writing here makes it crystal clear:

1. SYW should have been recorded and released in the late 90s, soon after The Dance
2. Stevie is the only one among the 5 with a good business sense and after The Dance brought FM back, resurrecting her own career was her priority, and the band was not
3. the rest of FM members have no business sense whatsoever, they are just musicians and artists, and agreed on waiting for Stevie and kept chasing their own tails instead of insisting on FM forging ahead
4. Lindsey's known procrastination did not help (recall, he had a solo album done in like 1997-8 but only presented it to the label in 2001!)

so it comes down to who is better at business and marketing in the band, and what are their goals.

That isn’t my assessment. I believe SYW is their best studio album since 1979–even though about five of the songs really drag (Come and Silver Girl need to biodegrade in a landfill). Ten are excellent. That’s a lot of substance. Throw Down and Say You Will (as opposed to Peacekeeper) may be the closet things to genuine singles, but Lindsey’s Say Goodbye and Red Rover, and Stevie’s Everybody are what I come back to…

I was impressed by the weight of the record, its density, its authenticity, too. Following this, Lindsey’s solo career experiences a renaissance—and those albums are excellent.

[BigAl84]

SYW was such an exciting time. This was a project that fans waited years to see come to fruition. It was a big deal when the 4 reunited to play a private gig at the very end of the Clinton administration. It was the first quasi-public performance as 4-piece band, minus Christine. There was a lengthy wait between Stevie's TISL album and tour wrapping up and fans getting to see footage of them in the studio when The Very Best of Fleetwood Mac was released with a short teaser clip.

Random things I remember from that time:

• Howie Epstein from the Heartbreakers passed away during the time when the band was doing press for the new album. FM recorded a segment for AOL Sessions and you can clearly see Stevie is very upset, not her usual self.

• The band brought seating into their rehearsal stage and ran a contest to attend one of the dress rehearsals for the tour. I think about 200 folks wound up attending a dress rehearsal show.

• Peacekeeper was featured on an episode of Law & Order before the album came out.

• SYW was featured on an episode of friends - again, maybe before the album came out. Not sure on this one.

• For several weeks leading up to the release day, AOL would post a 30 second preview clip of one song each week. We salivated over those clips!!

• The Fan Club fiasco...need I say more.

• Everything got weird towards the end of the album wrapping up. Reports of a big fight over the sequence of the album surfaced. At the same time there's a clip of an interviewer who spoke to both Lindsey and Stevie separately. To Stevie he said "Lindsey said something to the effect that he didn't feel the band realized how hard he worked on the album" to which Stevie is audibly in shock, almost in tears to hear he felt that way. There seemed to have been a full circle of emotions at the end - everything from warm and fuzzies to big time anger.

• Corey Buckingham wrote a "tour journal" and shared it online. It didn't reveal all that much Stevie/Lindsey drama as one would expect.

[aleuzzi]

S
• SYW was featured on an episode of friends - again, maybe before the album came out. Not sure on this one.



I didn't know this. I remember that "Goodbye Baby" was featured in the final episode.

[jmn3]

I didn't know this. I remember that "Goodbye Baby" was featured in the final episode.

Thrown Down played at the end of the episode where Joey hosts the party with his days of our lives costars on the apartment roof. The episode aired right after the album was released.

Quite a feat for an aging classic rock band to have a brand new non-single song featured in Friends at the peak of that show’s popularity.

[aleuzzi]

Thrown Down played at the end of the episode where Joey hosts the party with his days of our lives costars on the apartment roof. The episode aired right after the album was released.

Quite a feat for an aging classic rock band to have a brand new non-single song featured in Friends at the peak of that show’s popularity.

Wow, so Throw Down, plus SYW, plus Goodbye Baby were all featured on Friends? All three Stevie songs, too. I'm guessing that was the work of Azoff.

[Macfan4life]

Some fun facts:

Say You Will debuted at #3 and was certified Gold shortly after its release. I forgot it debuted so high. However Stevie's TISRL debuted at #5. They had clever ways to get albums to chart with pre-streaming sales(notice I said streaming, not digital). After the first week both albums fell like a rock. It was actually considered a disappointment which is sort of funny. 500k sales of an album today would be insane. Yet back then 500k sales was disappointing. Let that sink in for a moment. The most bizarre moment of the SYW documentary is when Mick talks about all the bickering with Lindsey and the band gave Lindsey most of what he wanted, Mick says "If the album sells only 500k copies, Lindsey is going to be very disappointed." Sure enough that is what it sold.
The music industry passed them by. Rock stations were rare and the songs were not pop hits. There were classic rock stations which only played the old stuff. So SYW was music without a home....only core FM fans ate it up.

[UnwindedDreams]

Some fun facts:

Say You Will debuted at #3 and was certified Gold shortly after its release. I forgot it debuted so high. However Stevie's TISRL debuted at #5. They had clever ways to get albums to chart with pre-streaming sales(notice I said streaming, not digital). After the first week both albums fell like a rock. It was actually considered a disappointment which is sort of funny. 500k sales of an album today would be insane. Yet back then 500k sales was disappointing. Let that sink in for a moment. The most bizarre moment of the SYW documentary is when Mick talks about all the bickering with Lindsey and the band gave Lindsey most of what he wanted, Mick says "If the album sells only 500k copies, Lindsey is going to be very disappointed." Sure enough that is what it sold.
The music industry passed them by. Rock stations were rare and the songs were not pop hits. There were classic rock stations which only played the old stuff. So SYW was music without a home....only core FM fans ate it up.
It debuted at 3 and Behind the Mask debuted in the Top 20 but didn't BTM sell more than SYW too?

[jmn3]

Wow, so Throw Down, plus SYW, plus Goodbye Baby were all featured on Friends? All three Stevie songs, too. I'm guessing that was the work of Azoff.

I have to say I have no idea when or where Goodbye Baby or Say You Will were played in Friends. I don’t recall either.

[Macfan4life]

It debuted at 3 and Behind the Mask debuted in the Top 20 but didn't BTM sell more than SYW too?
I think it would be difficult to compare both albums since they were released 13 years apart. So much in the music industry changed by 2003. Rock was dead as played on radio. All the copyright issues started around when youtube was created. All music sales were declining after 2000 when the internet exploded. BTM debuted in the top 20 in the states and #1 in the UK where it went platinum (I believe). Having said that, to have a studio album from a super group barely go gold in 1990 was a big disappointment. BTM had a top ten hit in Canada and sold well in the UK. I guess its a mixed bag. Both were considered disappointments during their initial release.
By today's standards 500k would be a huge success.

[elle]

The music industry passed them by. Rock stations were rare and the songs were not pop hits. There were classic rock stations which only played the old stuff. So SYW was music without a home....only core FM fans ate it up.

it's interesting that you say this - i was not either FM or LB fan at the time, but i heard Peacekeeper on the radio while driving my car tons at the time, and liked it, and knew that's from a new album. that was the only song i heard on the radio from SYW.

i have no idea which station i was listening to at the time.

[jbrownsjr]

it's interesting that you say this - i was not either FM or LB fan at the time, but i heard Peacekeeper on the radio while driving my car tons at the time, and liked it, and knew that's from a new album. that was the only song i heard on the radio from SYW.

i have no idea which station i was listening to at the time.

I heard Peacekeeper at the time of release too. A lot. Los Angeles radio.

I remember because I didn't like it. :lol: And not because Christine wasn't on it. It's just boring. Like Lay Down For Free is boring. Like WTWCT is boring. (love you Elle!)

When I bought the album, Come was my favorite song. I think it's brilliant.

[aleuzzi]

I have to say I have no idea when or where Goodbye Baby or Say You Will were played in Friends. I don’t recall either.

Goodbye Baby was on the last episode. Someone above said they’d heard SYW earlier that season, too.

[DownOnRodeo]

I heard Peacekeeper at the time of release too. A lot. Los Angeles radio.

I remember because I didn't like it. :lol: And not because Christine wasn't on it. It's just boring.

Lindsey's original solo version was great.

[SteveMacD]

• The Fan Club fiasco...need I say more.

Which one? :laugh:

[Street_Dreamer]

I remember how thrilled I was the day the album came out. I haven't anticipated anything as much before or since. Unfortunately, the SYW hasn't had the staying power that other FM albums have had for me.

I've been listening to all of the FM albums the past several weeks and it just feels off compared to the majority of the band's catalogue. Maybe it's the passage of time and all of the events that have happened in those 20 years? The entire album just feels weak to me now. Of everything Lindsey's done between then and now, it's definitely his worst work IMO and Freedom was Stevie's last great song. For me, the four songs from the EP were stronger than everything combined on Say You Will.

The only thing sadder is the even more lackluster Live In Boston release. Bad enough that they couldn't put it on a single DVD but the CD only had 10 songs. I guess disappointment is just part of the legacy of Fleetwood Mac.

[BigAl84]

I didn't know this. I remember that "Goodbye Baby" was featured in the final episode.

Maybe I’ve got my songs mixed up and it was Goodbye Baby, it’s been a long time since I’ve thought about these details lol.

[BigAl84]

I remember how thrilled I was the day the album came out. I haven't anticipated anything as much before or since. Unfortunately, the SYW hasn't had the staying power that other FM albums have had for me.

I've been listening to all of the FM albums the past several weeks and it just feels off compared to the majority of the band's catalogue. Maybe it's the passage of time and all of the events that have happened in those 20 years? The entire album just feels weak to me now. Of everything Lindsey's done between then and now, it's definitely his worst work IMO and Freedom was Stevie's last great song. For me, the four songs from the EP were stronger than everything combined on Say You Will.

The only thing sadder is the even more lackluster Live In Boston release. Bad enough that they couldn't put it on a single DVD but the CD only had 10 songs. I guess disappointment is just part of the legacy of Fleetwood Mac.

Yeah the DVD part is great, but that half-a$$ed audio CD is a weird mix of songs.

I do remember some details about the taping of that show. If my memory is correct, they re-shot some songs for close ups either after the concert was over or the day before/after - but it wasn’t in front of a full arena. They only had several rows of floor seats filled with people.

[jbrownsjr]

Lindsey's original solo version was great.

I've heard that from someone else. I'll have to check out his solo version.

[BigAl84]

I have a new appreciation for the album since I heard the vinyl release. The mix is still quite compressed, but the vinyl sounds better IMO. The layering in thrown down never gets old. I’m still not a fan of Illume and Smile At You. There’s odd tape hiss on Goodbye Baby that drives me to distraction. The version on the Destiny Rules doc is far superior.

[BigAl84]

A lot of reviews that were favorable, still described it as unbalanced and that’s probably the best term for the album. I think 18 tracks is hard to balance between two songwriters. There’s a much stronger 12 track album in that group of songs. There’s a really cool radio edit of Say You Will that should have been the mix used on the album.

[BigAl84]

Which one? :laugh:

Right!? wow...so much was promised with that fan club and next to nothing actually happened. I paid face value for a 15th row ticket and it was a better seat than what was being reserved for fan club members.

Weekly behind the scenes video clips turned out to be two clips of Mick on his treadmill....

It was peak era "Mick the Grifter"

[AnthonyMI]

Goodbye Baby was on the last episode. Someone above said they’d heard SYW earlier that season, too.

It was Thrown Down. And it was on the one where Joey and Rachel go to a party and Joey was going to ask Rachel out because he was in love with her or something. It was during that weird time that they were trying to make Joey and Rachel a Thing and it wasn’t working

[SteveMacD]

1. SYW should have been recorded and released in the late 90s, soon after The Dance

4. Lindsey's known procrastination did not help (recall, he had a solo album done in like 1997-8 but only presented it to the label in 2001!)

so it comes down to who is better at business and marketing in the band, and what are their goals.

Hindsight being 20/20, when Christine made it known that The Dance would be her last project with Fleetwood Mac, which she said was when they were still negotiating the reunion, Lindsey, Mick, and John should have formed an offshoot and had the album ready to go for when the tour ended, because Christine refusing to extend the tour was completely predictable.

The album should have either come out in early November or around the Hall of Fame induction followed by a February-April tours of Europe and Oceana and Japan. Then, do a US tour just prior to Memorial Day to the Fourth of July weekend. Take a paternity break and resume for another North American leg from September through December.

Ride the immediate coattails of The Dance and be the de facto Fleetwood Mac tour for outside of North America.

[Hawkeye]

Wow, so Throw Down, plus SYW, plus Goodbye Baby were all featured on Friends? All three Stevie songs, too. I'm guessing that was the work of Azoff.

Say You Will was That 70s Show not friends

[Tusky]

Does anyone know what the 'original' double album tracklisting was that caused all the fracas?

[jbrownsjr]

Does anyone know what the 'original' double album tracklisting was that caused all the fracas?

That would be cool to see. If there is such a thing.

[BigAl84]

That would be cool to see. If there is such a thing.

Not Make Believe and Love Minus Zero were included on the limited edition version as bonus tracks.

Not make believe always sounded unfinished to me, I was surprised they let it out the door as bonus material.

Those two tracks would have made a total of 20 tracks. It’s unknown what else was completed.

[BLY]

Not Make Believe and Love Minus Zero were included on the limited edition version as bonus tracks.

Not make believe always sounded unfinished to me, I was surprised they let it out the door as bonus material.

Those two tracks would have made a total of 20 tracks. It’s unknown what else was completed.

“I am waiting” was recorded for Say You Will with Stevie. A clip from the documentary captured it.

[jbrownsjr]

Not Make Believe and Love Minus Zero were included on the limited edition version as bonus tracks.

Not make believe always sounded unfinished to me, I was surprised they let it out the door as bonus material.

Those two tracks would have made a total of 20 tracks. It’s unknown what else was completed.

I actually like "Not Make Believe" I bought the bonus "orange" CD when it came out.

[aleuzzi]

Say You Will was That 70s Show not friends

Good to know. Thnx.

[BigAl84]

“I am waiting” was recorded for Say You Will with Stevie. A clip from the documentary captured it.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one!!

It seems like the majority of material they had to extend the album into a double album was mostly Lindsey's and not an equal split between he and Stevie. I wonder how much of that influenced the decision in addition to the business and financial factors.

[Tusky]

Someone's ripped the audio of that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFDBiDJkhg

[bombaysaffires]

“I am waiting” was recorded for Say You Will with Stevie. A clip from the documentary captured it.

It was one of the tracks Lindsey had already recorded, and one of the ones that as he says in the documentary "we'll get Stevie's presence on some of my songs". The ripped audio includes some of the vocal arranging he worked on with her and then her actually recording her part.

[cbBen]

As per the documentary, Lindsey decidedly didn't want it to sound like Fleetwood Mac. Something like "reinvent ourselves in the most credible possible way" is how he worded it – which in effect means "do something different."

[UnwindedDreams]

As per the documentary, Lindsey decidedly didn't want it to sound like Fleetwood Mac. Something like "reinvent ourselves in the most credible possible way" is how he worded it – which in effect means "do something different."
Which also tied in to his vision for the tour where he wanted the focus on the music and performance of the instruments. No business attire on Lindsey like The Dance; Lindsey wore weekend casual clothes. He asked the same of Stevie. But I think Say You Will Tour was the last tour of FM or Stevie solo where so many new capes, jackets, hats, gloves, and other belongings of Stevie's were worn on stage. I'm glad she didn't listen to Lindsey for that tour.
2018 Tour had nothing but 2 old shawls.

[justcrazylove]

Say You Will was the album that introduced the band to me. I was a fresh-faced 17-year-old following a band from the '70s wasn't really a vibe in 2003.

I ate this album up every moment of it upon its release, and I still do. The highlights have been covered and we all tend to agree; it's bloated in parts, drags in the middle and is missing Chris. However, the production that was so maligned at the time both on this board and by Stevie has held up. I say this as an unabashed Lindsey fan, the style of production hasn't dated in the same way other music from that period has, look at TISL for evidence. There are enough interesting things happening sonically that your interest as a listener is maintained, this has always been Lindsey's strength as a producer.

As fans, we are gifted 18 tracks in a very limited discography in the grand scope of the band's life. Lastly, we have SYHA and BTLH the last official 5-member Fleetwood Mac recordings, and I adore them.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Does anyone know what the 'original' double album tracklisting was that caused all the fracas?

Buckingham mentioned that 10 of Stevie's songs were under consideration, meaning that "Not Make Believe" was her only song that hit the cutting room floor. In an interview with Guitar World Acoustic in 2006, Buckingham said that "Down on Rodeo" and "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" were also considered. And we saw footage of Buckingham and Nicks recording "I Am Waiting" in the Destiny Rules documentary. It's possible that other songs recorded during the 1995 Ocean Way recording sessions were under consideration ("Right Place to Fade", "Wait For You", and "Gift of Screws"), although this has not been confirmed to my knowledge. However, we can add "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" to the list of songs recorded during the Say You Will sessions.

Here's a transcription of the Guitar World Acoustic interview http://www.fleetwoodmac-uk.com/articles/2006/LB_2006-10_016.html

[blinker12]

Say You Will was the album that introduced the band to me. I was a fresh-faced 17-year-old following a band from the '70s wasn't really a vibe in 2003….


What a great post. I agree with every word.

[BigAl84]

Say You Will was the album that introduced the band to me. I was a fresh-faced 17-year-old following a band from the '70s wasn't really a vibe in 2003.

It was The Dance in '97 that locked me in. I was a dorky 13/14 year old kid. While everyone in middle school was jamming to the Backstreet Boys, here I was playing...Fleetwood Mac!?

I agree, while I wish the mix had more air to it, a little less condensed..It's aged far better than a lot of songs on TISL.

[BigAl84]

In addition to making a record that was artistically challenging and not pure fluff, I think he envisioned that whole period for the band as a new productive phase that would include multiple albums and tours. A stark difference from other boomer bands falling back on the greatest hits touring model. He mentioned in Destiny Rules the attempt to "string a couple of years together" I He later revealed in other interviews down the road that he had hoped for at least one follow up album to happen in relatively quickly after SYW.

Unfortunately what really happened was a constant uphill battle to get Stevie onboard to do anything in the studio from 2004 onward. The ice cracked a little bit for the 2013 EP, but quickly turned into the stalemate situation. Luckily it gave us Buckingham McVie which is arguably stronger without Stevie (and personally, it's my theory that's what really led to the 2018 friction. Being upstaged)

[BigAl84]

One memory that really stands out from that time - there was like an entire year between knowing they were working on something and the album being released. I remember constantly thinking that the entire project could implode at any time. Some sort of argument would go nuclear and the whole thing would be scrapped. I remember being in disbelief actually holding the album in my hand and witnessing a tour that went for nearly a year.

When Destiny Rules was released it was fascinating to watch, but I think it showed how difficult the process was and a diminishing likelihood that they would do it again. I don't remember what the initial reaction was here at the ledge, it would be fascinating to go back to those threads if they still exist.

The end of the SYW tour marked the start of what seemed like YEARLY greatest hits tours from Stevie which put FM on hold until 2009.

[aleuzzi]

The end of the SYW tour marked the start of what seemed like YEARLY greatest hits tours from Stevie which put FM on hold until 2009.


Absolutely. SYW was not only a near-miracle but a substantial body of work. Though initially estranged to anything without Christine, I soon warmed to it and was grateful for such an enormous amount of new songs.

Sadly it was a sort of swansong for THAT lineup. BuckVie was an equally fine FM album.

[jbrownsjr]

Absolutely. SYW was not only a near-miracle but a substantial body of work. Though initially estranged to anything without Christine, I soon warmed to it and was grateful for such an enormous amount of new songs.

Sadly it was a sort of swansong for THAT lineup. BuckVie was an equally fine FM album.

And if you compare it to TISL it's pretty solid. Like I've always said about this album: You can tell the musical and romantic relationship these two had was dead as a door nail. (I've never understood that expression)

There are some bright spots on this album, but it's a pooper as a concept. I give LB a lot of credit for really trying to do something different. But, he needed all 4 of them to see his vision. And commercially it would have cost them because the other 3 weren't all on board.

I think they just put songs together rather than making an album together. LB solo project with the other 3. Even though, he wanted and invited more from them.

[bombaysaffires]

I'm sure someone has done this in some thread or other, but a thought experiment: what Christine songs would have made SYW better and removed some of the S&L dead wood? The closest timeframe material we have of Chris's was the set of songs she did for In the Meantime (even though they were a bit later in time at least in terms of the album coming out, but it's the closest we have of her material in that general timeframe). Which ITM songs (and I guess that would exclude those written by her nephew) would have improved SYW overall and which S & L songs would they replace?

[aleuzzi]

I'm sure someone has done this in some thread or other, but a thought experiment: what Christine songs would have made SYW better and removed some of the S&L dead wood? The closest timeframe material we have of Chris's was the set of songs she did for In the Meantime (even though they were a bit later in time at least in terms of the album coming out, but it's the closest we have of her material in that general timeframe). Which ITM songs (and I guess that would exclude those written by her nephew) would have improved SYW overall and which S & L songs would they replace?

Yes, there was a thread that came out not long after ITM was released. Don’t know where it is...

But I always thought six songs from each of them.

Lindsey:

Red Rover
Say Goodbye
Steal Your Heart Away
Peacekeeper
Miranda
Murrow

Stevie:

Say You Will
Everybody Finds Out
Throw Down
Destiny Rules
Illume
Running Through Her Garden

Christine:

Friend
Anything is Possible
Forgiveness
Liar
So Sincere
Giving It Back

[HomerMcvie]

Absolutely. SYW was not only a near-miracle but a substantial body of work. Though initially estranged to anything without Christine, I soon warmed to it and was grateful for such an enormous amount of new songs.

Sadly it was a sort of swansong for THAT lineup. BuckVie was an equally fine FM album.
Yeah, but BuckVie was such a positive, happy album. THE ANTITHESIS OF SAY YOU WON'T.

[aleuzzi]

Yeah, but BuckVie was such a positive, happy album. THE ANTITHESIS OF SAY YOU WON'T.

No doubt. SYW was moody and dark. Some of which may have been due to the political climate (Peacekeeper, Murrow, Illume, WTWCT) but also perhaps a reflection of how Lindsey and Stevie felt working with one another, sans Christine as a crucial buffer.

I LOVE BuckVie (and mostly prefer it to SYW), but there’s no question I would have loved it more as an official FM record, with 3 or 4 Stevie songs, her backing vocals, and Christine playing keyboards on Lindsey’s songs.

[bombaysaffires]

No doubt. SYW was moody and dark. Some of which may have been due to the political climate (Peacekeeper, Murrow, Illume, WTWCT) but also perhaps a reflection of how Lindsey and Stevie felt working with one another, sans Christine as a crucial buffer.

I LOVE BuckVie (and mostly prefer it to SYW), but there’s no question I would have loved it more as an official FM record, with 3 or 4 Stevie songs, her backing vocals, and Christine playing keyboards on Lindsey’s songs.

Good point... it was barely a couple years post-9/11 when the album came out in 2003, so it would have been recorded at some point in 2002....and things were rather dark and scary overall....

[WalkAThinLine.]

And if you compare it to TISL it's pretty solid. Like I've always said about this album: You can tell the musical and romantic relationship these two had was dead as a door nail. (I've never understood that expression)

There are some bright spots on this album, but it's a pooper as a concept. I give LB a lot of credit for really trying to do something different. But, he needed all 4 of them to see his vision. And commercially it would have cost them because the other 3 weren't all on board.

I think they just put songs together rather than making an album together. LB solo project with the other 3. Even though, he wanted and invited more from them.

Say You Will is essentially the work of two solo artists with Mick Fleetwood and John McVie serving as the rhythm section. With Christine McVie (unfortunately) gone from the band, Buckingham and Nicks could have used the opportunity to highlight their dynamic by writing new songs together. Instead, the two brought in largely finished material with varying degrees of quality to the studio. Several of Lindsey's songs ("Murrow", "Red Rover", and "Come") are more akin to solo songs than Fleetwood Mac songs, with Nicks entirely absent from them. As much as I enjoy the song, I'm surprised that "Murrow" was selected as track 2 given its relatively experimental nature. And "Illume" grinds the album's momentum to a halt.

[HomerMcvie]

Say You Will is essentially the work of two solo artists with Mick Fleetwood and John McVie serving as the rhythm section. With Christine McVie (unfortunately) gone from the band, Buckingham and Nicks could have used the opportunity to highlight their dynamic by writing new songs together. Instead, the two brought in largely finished material with varying degrees of quality to the studio. Several of Lindsey's songs ("Murrow", "Red Rover", and "Come") are more akin to solo songs than Fleetwood Mac songs, with Nicks entirely absent from them. As much as I enjoy the song, I'm surprised that "Murrow" was selected as track 2 given its relatively experimental nature. And "Illume" grinds the album's momentum to a halt.
How could any negative review leave off Come? It's a horrible song, and trashy subject matter. And also the reason I was gifted the deluxe SYW by my cousin's roommate, because she hated Come, and said, "this album doesn't sound like FM!"
Indeed. The queen was retired.

[jmn3]

How could any negative review leave off Come? Is a horrible song, and trashy subject matter. And also the reason I was gifted the deluxe SYW by my cousin's roommate, because she hated Come, and said, "this album doesn't sound like FM!"
Indeed. The queen was retired.

Awwww you’re clutching your chiffon about the subject matter in Come? You and ol’ $tevie have your common ground after all!

[HomerMcvie]

Awwww you’re clutching your chiffon about the subject matter in Come? You and ol’ $tevie have your common ground after all!

I'm no prude. I've had several wh*rish chapters in my life(god I miss those days). But I don't want my FM trashy. I want my FM with melody, and harmony. WITH ZERO SCREAMING.

SYW should've been cut down to the best 8 songs by S&L, and added 4 Christine songs. THAT would've worked.

[aleuzzi]

How could any negative review leave off Come? It's a horrible song, and trashy subject matter. And also the reason I was gifted the deluxe SYW by my cousin's roommate, because she hated Come, and said, "this album doesn't sound like FM!"
Indeed. The queen was retired.

Agreed! “Come” is so indulgent and boring. At least it has good guitar, but man, what a slog…

[SteveMacD]

This is what should have happened. Way better, more consistent album than anything we got, too.

Buckingham Fleetwood McVie (1998)

The Right Place to Fade
Wait For You
Miranda
Red Rover
Murrow
Someone’s Gotta Change Your Mind
—
Down On Rodeo
Come
Steal Your Heart Away
Gift of Screws
Bleed to Love Her
Say Goodbye

[BigAl84]

This is what should have happened. Way better, more consistent album than anything we got, too.

Buckingham Fleetwood McVie (1998)

The Right Place to Fade
Wait For You
Miranda
Red Rover
Murrow
Someone’s Gotta Change Your Mind
—
Down On Rodeo
Come
Steal Your Heart Away
Gift of Screws
Bleed to Love Her
Say Goodbye

That’s a solid set of tunes and I agree, it stands on its own for that concept/lineup.

[jmn3]

This is what should have happened. Way better, more consistent album than anything we got, too.

Buckingham Fleetwood McVie (1998)

The Right Place to Fade
Wait For You
Miranda
Red Rover
Murrow
Someone’s Gotta Change Your Mind
—
Down On Rodeo
Come
Steal Your Heart Away
Gift of Screws
Bleed to Love Her
Say Goodbye

I like it Steve! But no way they were gonna do anything without Stevie even in 1998. Instead they preferred to dick around for 5 years.

[jmn3]

I'm no prude. I've had several wh*rish chapters in my life(god I miss those days). But I don't want my FM trashy. I want my FM with melody, and harmony. WITH ZERO SCREAMING.

SYW should've been cut down to the best 8 songs by S&L, and added 4 Christine songs. THAT would've worked.

Definitely not a fan of Come either just to clarify. I thought it came across good live but the album version is crap.

[elle]

Of everything Lindsey's done between then and now, it's definitely his worst work IMO and Freedom was Stevie's last great song. For me, the four songs from the EP were stronger than everything combined on Say You Will.

it's always so interesting to see, the range of musical tastes in FM fans.

to me, Lindsey's SYW material (+all those other songs from his not-to-be 2001 solo album) was what made me a huge Lindsey fan that i still am.

his 90s era music was fantastic, and it moved in different direction from his early music in 70s and 80s. and that different direction was music that i absolutely adore.

so yes, i think Lindsey's mid to late 90s-era music is his strongest ever.

sure, i loved where he went with Seeds, and i enjoy his songs on BuckVie and Lindsey Buckingham 2021 album. and Second Hand News is probably still the most perfect little rocking pop song ever. but 90s were Lindsey's creative peak. he mellowed back up after that. he stuck to his guns and didn't try to go in many different directions after that. which is completely fine.

and so, while he was on his creative peak, he tried to take Fleetwood Mac in a new, different creative direction. he hoped maybe this time around Tusk-like push will work and other band members will finally accept and run with him too, and maybe they'll gain new audiences, or take their old audiences on a new journey with them.

looking at all the hate at Come, Red Rover and Murrow here, Fleetwood Mac historical fans were stuck in their ways, and did not care about evolving band. which is ok, we like what we like... still interesting to read.

when Destiny Rules started with that excerpt of Come? it was glorious! i was thinking - can't believe this is still FM, how great to hear this evolution!

[elle]

Definitely not a fan of Come either just to clarify. I thought it came across good live

it's amazing live! highlight of any live LB show when he played it.

[elle]

This is what should have happened. Way better, more consistent album than anything we got, too.

Buckingham Fleetwood McVie (1998)

The Right Place to Fade
Wait For You
Miranda
Red Rover
Murrow
Someone’s Gotta Change Your Mind
—
Down On Rodeo
Come
Steal Your Heart Away
Gift of Screws
Bleed to Love Her
Say Goodbye

you mean original Gift of Screws. yes, amazing album that never was and should have been released in late 90s!

add also The Singer not the Song and She Smiled Sweetly. Deep Dense would have been nice too! and that never finished crazy song called Steve's Riff.

[SteveMacD]

you mean original Gift of Screws. yes, amazing album that never was and should have been released in late 90s!

add also The Singer not the Song and She Smiled Sweetly. Deep Dense would have been nice too! and that never finished crazy song called Steve's Riff.

I thought of calling it “Gift of Screws,” but in my mind, it would have been released right around the HoF ceremony, and making it an eponymous album made more sense from a marketing standpoint.

I also didn’t want to water down the album with Stones covers. Lindsey’s original compositions were too strong for that.

[BigAl84]

It’s been 20 darn years and I STILL WANT to hear the full version of that instrumental snippet that is played on the Destiny Rules doc!!

[BigAl84]

Oh man…does anyone remember from the SYW tour when Linsey would point his finger at ladies in the audience during “Come”😂😂😂😂

[elle]

I thought of calling it “Gift of Screws,” but in my mind, it would have been released right around the HoF ceremony, and making it an eponymous album made more sense from a marketing standpoint.

I also didn’t want to water down the album with Stones covers. Lindsey’s original compositions were too strong for that.

i hear you.

you look at that list of songs and they are all amazing and really strong, not a dud between them (well, other than Say Goodbye but hey there's always one!).

i adore those Stones covers he did, but again, i hear you.

[BigAl84]

i hear you.

you look at that list of songs and they are all amazing and really strong, not a dud between them (well, other than Say Goodbye but hey there's always one!).

i adore those Stones covers he did, but again, i hear you.

Wait a minute…Elle! You’re not a fan of Say Goodbye? I’m not a huge fan of that one either and it’s been my dirty little secret for YEARS.

[elle]

Oh man…does anyone remember from the SYW tour when Linsey would point his finger at ladies in the audience during “Come”😂😂😂😂

all the time! people are still talking about specific shows when they were Lindsey's Come girl!

[elle]

Wait a minute…Elle! You’re not a fan of Say Goodbye? I’m not a huge fan of that one either and it’s been my dirty little secret for YEARS.

ha! i knew our tastes had to be similar!

i severely dislike both the sped up and the slow / live versions.

i mean intricate guitar parts are nice, but the song is Julio Iglesias kind of schlock that i never cared for.

[BigAl84]

ha! i knew our tastes had to be similar!

i severely dislike both the sped up and the slow / live versions.

i mean intricate guitar parts are nice, but the song is Julio Iglesias kind of schlock that i never cared for.

Speaking of slowed down songs…the shady pines version of NGBA still takes home the trophy for being my least favorite of all time.

[BigAl84]

all the time! people are still talking about specific shows when they were Lindsey's Come girl!

Oh yeah, I remember reading those comments all the time about being one of the chosen!!

That was the tour of Stevie’s lasso dance during Say You Will and Lindsey’s Come finger…wow what kind of sentence did I just write!?

[jmn3]

Speaking of slowed down songs…the shady pines version of NGBA still takes home the trophy for being my least favorite of all time.

I love how they did it on the Say You Will tour. Once it went back to a LB only presentation it has gotten increasingly slow seemingly every time he plays it.

[BigAl84]

I love how they did it on the Say You Will tour. Once it went back to a LB only presentation it has gotten increasingly slow seemingly every time he plays it.

Yes! It was uptempo with Mick on drums.

[jmn3]

Oh yeah, I remember reading those comments all the time about being one of the chosen!!

That was the tour of Stevie’s lasso dance during Say You Will and Lindsey’s Come finger…wow what kind of sentence did I just write!?

🤣🤣🤣

There was also that sparring hug fight thing S&L did at the end of Tusk on that tour. I don’t think I can make it nearly as interesting sounding as “Lindsey’s Come finger”

[jmn3]

Yes! It was uptempo with Mick on drums.

Yep. All 4 of them on stage. It had a nice feel and wasn’t anything like the slow dirge that it became later.

[elle]

Yep. All 4 of them on stage. It had a nice feel and wasn’t anything like the slow dirge that it became later.

same during Lindsey's solo Soundstage with only him and SN on stage - great fast version (even with that little blip/mess-up in it).

it's not really a band vs no band or band vs solo question, just whether he does slow or regular version makes all the difference. and in most cases he would do different versions solo first, and then just take them to FM tour. like the acoustic Big Love and Go Insane that he was doing solo first years before bringing it to The Dance FM tour.

i don't think his fingers can physically play too many fast acoustic intricate songs in a single night anymore. so i don't see us ever getting regular tempo NGBA live again. which is fine, i'd rather see his newer songs with intricate guitar work actually played live, like Rock Away Blind or Love Is Here To Stay. that's a current-day treat, NGBA is history.

[UnwindedDreams]

i don't think his fingers can physically play too many fast acoustic intricate songs in a single night anymore. so i don't see us ever getting regular tempo NGBA live again. which is fine, i'd rather see his newer songs with intricate guitar work actually played live, like Rock Away Blind or Love Is Here To Stay. that's a current-day treat, NGBA is history.
I wish he would leave NGBA and Trouble out his set.
Also, release a new song Lindsey!

[elle]

I wish he would leave NGBA and Trouble out his set.
Also, release a new song Lindsey!

he will. patience!

i agree on NGBA and Trouble, but i don't think that will ever happen. even slowed down NGBA gets rousing response from casual / FM fans who go to LB solo shows only knowing FM stuff and Trouble (also Holiday Road, which he skips on most tours and it's always a huge crowd pleaser!). he almost skipped Trouble at several solo tours and always added it back in the last moment.

that was another great thing about BuckVie tour - the songs they did were great versions, they were rocking, setlist was flowing and they had funny little banter in between. and they dared to skip hits like Don't Stop, Second Hand News, Songbird, The Chain, and Big Love, normal mainstays of their/'FM setlists, in favor of new songs.

[HomerMcvie]

he will. patience!

i agree on NGBA and Trouble, but i don't think that will ever happen. even slowed down NGBA gets rousing response from casual / FM fans who go to LB solo shows only knowing FM stuff and Trouble (also Holiday Road, which he skips on most tours and it's always a huge crowd pleaser!). he almost skipped Trouble at several solo tours and always added it back in the last moment.

that was another great thing about BuckVie tour - the songs they did were great versions, they were rocking, setlist was flowing and they had funny little banter in between. and they dared to skip hits like Don't Stop, Second Hand News, Songbird, The Chain, and Big Love, normal mainstays of their/'FM setlists, in favor of new songs.

EIGHT new songs in the show was a miracle!

[SteveMacD]

I like it Steve! But no way they were gonna do anything without Stevie even in 1998. Instead they preferred to dick around for 5 years.

They knew long before the tour there was no chance of that material being released or toured by the classic Fleetwood Mac. Christine made it clear at the start of The Dance that she was leaving after it was finished. Given she’d already retired from touring, her pulling the plug after the first leg was completely predictable. Also just as predictable was Stevie returning to her solo work after The Dance tour ended.

It should have been obvious that releasing and touring that album as an offshoot was the only way that material was going to get any momentum from The Dance. Tours of Europe and Oceana/Japan should have been booked right after Christine called it quits (serving as de facto Fleetwood Mac tours) and the album should have been released around the HoF ceremony.

But, as Elle has pointed out, they have terrible business sense.

[BigAl84]

They were masters at pissing an entire decade away between projects. If only they could have had a run of new material like Lindsey did from 2006-2011. Lindsey sure tried.

[UnwindedDreams]

They were masters at pissing an entire decade away between projects. If only they could have had a run of new material like Lindsey did from 2006-2011. Lindsey sure tried.
I do think after Trouble in Shangri-La Stevie went along with her management and Irving's orders that she do hit tours starting with a Vegas residency in 2005, a co-headline with Henley, Australia with a never released symphony concert, Crystal Visions Tour 2007, Soundstage dvd and album, Crystal Visions Tour 2008. So when Lindsey wanted to make new music before Unleashed, Stevie just wanted to do the old stuff (though she got to do Storms which was never done live before and Say You Love me which hadn't been done in 10 years). I think the only reason she did 3 songs on the Extended Play in 2012 was because she had become an artist again by releasing her 2011 album In Your Dreams. When that didn't sell to her liking, in 2014 she/her management thought she could ride the Chris reunion wave and American Horror Story wave to get 24 Karat Gold Songs from the Vault to be a Top 5 album, and it didn't work. Had Stevie done the 2014 Fleetwood Mac album recording, that album would have debuted at at least #3. The 24 Karat Gold album was a way of Stevie showing FM that she didn't need them and that she could record her own album.

Then in 2016 she decided to tour that album and barely played any songs from it. And now what has Stevie done since that 24 Karat Gold Tour, basically tours in the spirit of the 2005-2010 Tours. It stinks as a hardcore fan of her.

[BigAl84]

I do think after Trouble in Shangri-La Stevie went along with her management and Irving's orders that she do hit tours starting with a Vegas residency in 2005, a co-headline with Henley, Australia with a never released symphony concert, Crystal Visions Tour 2007, Soundstage dvd and album, Crystal Visions Tour 2008. So when Lindsey wanted to make new music before Unleashed, Stevie just wanted to do the old stuff (though she got to do Storms which was never done live before and Say You Love me which hadn't been done in 10 years). I think the only reason she did 3 songs on the Extended Play in 2012 was because she had become an artist again by releasing her 2011 album In Your Dreams. When that didn't sell to her liking, in 2014 she/her management thought she could ride the Chris reunion wave and American Horror Story wave to get 24 Karat Gold Songs from the Vault to be a Top 5 album, and it didn't work. Had Stevie done the 2014 Fleetwood Mac album recording, that album would have debuted at at least #3. The 24 Karat Gold album was a way of Stevie showing FM that she didn't need them and that she could record her own album.

Then in 2016 she decided to tour that album and barely played any songs from it. And now what has Stevie done since that 24 Karat Gold Tour, basically tours in the spirit of the 2005-2010 Tours. It stinks as a hardcore fan of her.

Stevie definitely admitted during the press interviews for In Your Dreams that she was advised in 2005-ish to focus her energy on touring instead of making albums. She didn't get specific on who exactly gave her that advice. Looking back, she really used her "3 year rule" as a means to avoid working with the band. She always talked up to being a wise way to not oversaturate the market with Fleetwood Mac, but it was really all about avoiding another recording project with the band.

Not to go off topic but...I'm still curious about the details around the 24k Gold album and her allegation that it was a contractual obligation that forced her hand into getting it done via two weeks in Nashville. I have a really hard time believing that her management and lawyers somehow forgot about an album on the books amongst the planning of two massive Fleetwood Mac tours (2013 & 2014) Something really doesn't add up, IMO. Did her team think that would be fulfilled by participating in a new Fleetwood Mac album with Christine and realized she was dead set on not participating? Or was it just an ego driven revenge move when she caught wind of Buckingham McVie moving forward without her, the contractual obligation part being totally made up.

[jmn3]

I think the only reason she did 3 songs on the Extended Play in 2012 was because she had become an artist again by releasing her 2011 album In Your Dreams.

I always assumed she did the EP to placate Lindsey and get him to agree to a Fleetwood Mac tour. In those pre-Christine returning days, she didn’t have the power she got once Chris was back and her star had regained a following with AHS. I feel like Lindsey wasn’t going to tour without something new in the set and was demanding a new album and she placated him with the EP. She needed him to agree then and he was probably content to wait her out and do more solo work. Her solo career was just coming off of that nonsense thing she did with Rod Stewart which she appeared to hate.

[BigAl84]

I think her participation in the EP was actually one of the most organic, non-business driven decisions she had made in a long time. She asked Lindsey to work on Soldiers Angel which got them working together in the first place. She spoke about hanging out at Lindsey's house and having a great time, he also hung out at her house to record SA.

For a minute in 2013 it really looked like a Buckingham Nicks reissue package was on the table that would include the newly reworked "Without You" If my memory is correct, there was some sort of difference in opinion between releasing it with original demos or reworked demos. I don't remember who was onboard for what. It all fizzled out by the time the tour got underway and it was never talked about again. Shocking!

[aleuzzi]

I think her participation in the EP was actually one of the most organic, non-business driven decisions she had made in a long time. She asked Lindsey to work on Soldiers Angel which got them working together in the first place. She spoke about hanging out at Lindsey's house and having a great time, he also hung out at her house to record SA.

For a minute in 2013 it really looked like a Buckingham Nicks reissue package was on the table that would include the newly reworked "Without You" If my memory is correct, there was some sort of difference in opinion between releasing it with original demos or reworked demos. I don't remember who was onboard for what. It all fizzled out by the time the tour got underway and it was never talked about again. Shocking!

That's true, but the fact that she did not contribute a new song to the EP was also telling. By this time she was hoarding whatever new material she had for her solo career.

[SteveMacD]

That's true, but the fact that she did not contribute a new song to the EP was also telling. By this time she was hoarding whatever new material she had for her solo career.

That’s the thing, though. Outside of “Lady,” she didn’t have any new material.

[mylittledemon]

Doesn't seem like 20 years. Wow.

I was working my way through college at the time and I handmade this poster by Xerox'ing a photo collection I had amassed. If I remember rightly, an enthusiastic customer offered me $30 for the poster and came back for it at the end of the day.

[aleuzzi]

That’s the thing, though. Outside of “Lady,” she didn’t have any new material.

And she wrote “Lady” in ‘72 or ‘73.

[UnwindedDreams]

And she wrote “Lady” in ‘72 or ‘73.
Did she write Cathouse Blues in 1969? One of the songs on the album I swear she said she wrote in the late 60s!

[aleuzzi]

Did she write Cathouse Blues in 1969? One of the songs on the album I swear she said she wrote in the late 60s!

Could be! Early 70s at the latest.

[Macfan4life]

Doesn't seem like 20 years. Wow.

I was working my way through college at the time and I handmade this poster by Xerox'ing a photo collection I had amassed. If I remember rightly, an enthusiastic customer offered me $30 for the poster and came back for it at the end of the day.
That's a great poster. You worked at a record store and did this promotion?
That is so freaking cool.

[BigAl84]

This is my pared down Say You Will album that I've been tinkering with lately. I've added a few 2013 EP tracks that fit in surprisingly well.

1. Sad Angel
2. Everybody Finds Out
3. Miranda
4. Thrown Down
5. Peacekeeper
6. Running Through The Garden
7. Murrow
8. Bleed To Love Her
9. Say You Will
10. Steal Your Heart Away
11. Destiny Rules
12. It Takes Time

[cbBen]

1. Everybody Finds Out (should have been the single)
2. Steal Your Heart Away
3. Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
4. Illume (9-11)
5. Thrown Down
6. Smile at You
7. Miranda
8. Running Through the Garden
9. Destiny Rules
10. Say Goodbye (re-cut a la the live version)
11. Down On Rodeo
12. I'll Wait For You (could have really benefited from Stevie)

If they were also to include "Goodbye Baby," it should have been an acoustic guitar version (as they run it down in the documentary).

[jbrownsjr]

1. Everybody Finds Out (should have been the single)
2. Steal Your Heart Away
3. Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
4. Illume (9-11)
5. Thrown Down
6. Smile at You
7. Miranda
8. Running Through the Garden
9. Destiny Rules
10. Say Goodbye (re-cut a la the live version)
11. Down On Rodeo
12. I'll Wait For You (could have really benefited from Stevie)

If they were also to include "Goodbye Baby," it should have been an acoustic guitar version (as they run it down in the documentary).

I love this!

[SteveMacD]

This is my pared down Say You Will album that I've been tinkering with lately. I've added a few 2013 EP tracks that fit in surprisingly well.

I tend to use EP and LBCM for a final album:

Sleeping Around The Corner
Feel About You
Without You
In My World
Red Sun
Ms. Fantasy
Love Is Here To Stay
—
Too Far Gone
Not Make Believe
Lay Down For Free
Game of Pretend
Sad Angel
On With The Show
Carnival Begin

[jbrownsjr]

I tend to use EP and LBCM for a final album:

Sleeping Around The Corner
Feel About You
Without You
In My World
Red Sun
Ms. Fantasy
Love Is Here To Stay
—
Too Far Gone
Not Make Believe
Lay Down For Free
Game of Pretend
Sad Angel
On With The Show
Carnival Begin

This is pretty fantastic too.
Ending with CBegin and I quite like, Not Make Believe.

[elle]

This is my pared down Say You Will album that I've been tinkering with lately. I've added a few 2013 EP tracks that fit in surprisingly well.

1. Sad Angel
2. Everybody Finds Out
3. Miranda
4. Thrown Down
5. Peacekeeper
6. Running Through The Garden
7. Murrow
8. Bleed To Love Her
9. Say You Will
10. Steal Your Heart Away
11. Destiny Rules
12. It Takes Time

this flows nicely, and all strong songs.

[elle]

I love this!

how are we such good friends with such diametrically opposite musical taste??

Illume, Say Goodbye and Smile at You (SYW version) kill this list. plus sequencing is a complete mess, even worse than actual SYW.

[elle]

I tend to use EP and LBCM for a final album:

Sleeping Around The Corner
Feel About You
Without You
In My World
Red Sun
Ms. Fantasy
Love Is Here To Stay
—
Too Far Gone
Not Make Believe
Lay Down For Free
Game of Pretend
Sad Angel
On With The Show
Carnival Begin

pretty good, except GOP should probably be at the end, and Not Make Believe should be deleted.

[jmn3]

This is my pared down Say You Will album that I've been tinkering with lately. I've added a few 2013 EP tracks that fit in surprisingly well.

1. Sad Angel
2. Everybody Finds Out
3. Miranda
4. Thrown Down
5. Peacekeeper
6. Running Through The Garden
7. Murrow
8. Bleed To Love Her
9. Say You Will
10. Steal Your Heart Away
11. Destiny Rules
12. It Takes Time

IMO this is perfection

[jbrownsjr]

how are we such good friends with such diametrically opposite musical taste??

Illume, Say Goodbye and Smile at You (SYW version) kill this list. plus sequencing is a complete mess, even worse than actual SYW.

I don't know, are you breaking up with me? Or, does differing opinions open the door for a bridge to bring us back together.

[elle]

I don't know, are you breaking up with me? Or, does differing opinions open the door for a bridge to bring us back together.

i would never break up with you - you know that :xoxo::nod::):xoxo:

[jbrownsjr]

i would never break up with you - you know that :xoxo::nod::):xoxo:

I'm Under The Skin

[cbBen]

I'm Under The Skin

Moderators, please move to the Lindsey Buckingham board.

[HomerMcvie]

Moderators, please move to the Lindsey Buckingham board.

Or the sexually awkward forum. It's like a baseball catcher's forum here... :laugh:

[BigAl84]

this flows nicely, and all strong songs.

Thanks, Elle! It was a hard decision to omit “Come” but If I had to chose one of his “doesn’t sound like Fleetwood Mac” tunes, I went with Murrow.

[jbrownsjr]

Or the sexually awkward forum. It's like a baseball catcher's forum here... :laugh:

Oh my Lord, I wasn't even thinking that... but ... that's hilarious.:]

[mylittledemon]

That's a great poster. You worked at a record store and did this promotion?
That is so freaking cool.

I worked part-time at Best Buy, and I really just did it out of my own excitement :laugh: What was weird is that Best Buy got no promotion materials for it. No promo copy of the album, only a 24x24in vinyl slick that slid into the aisle endcaps... which overall was odd because Best Buy had heavily promoted The Dance. :shrug:

[anusha]

I do think the context of the times is also worth noting. Napster was probably at its peak in the 3-5 years after The Dance came out so a lot of the industry was not sure what to do. Looking back though, it does seem clear that Stevie was always going to use the momentum from The Dance to revive her solo career — the tanking of Street Angel is what made her even consider FM. A different band would have made better use of the momentum collectively, but it’s not really that surprising that they didn’t.

Looking back on the album itself, I remain a fan of the new songs Stevie brought to the sessions (Illume, Thrown Down, Destiny Rules, Not Make Believe) and some of the GoS songs (especially Down on Rodeo, but NOT Come or Red Rover). I do think some of the production on Stevie’s old demos is too busy for my taste (Running Through the Garden, Everybody Finds Out, Smile at You). In retrospect, it would have been better as a shorter album with bonus tracks maybe. But I’m glad we had a chance to hear so many of these songs and also that Lindsey was able to keep making new music afterwards.

[Nathan]

Doesn't seem like 20 years. Wow.

I was working my way through college at the time and I handmade this poster by Xerox'ing a photo collection I had amassed. If I remember rightly, an enthusiastic customer offered me $30 for the poster and came back for it at the end of the day.

Cool poster dude!

[Macfan4life]

I worked part-time at Best Buy, and I really just did it out of my own excitement :laugh: What was weird is that Best Buy got no promotion materials for it. No promo copy of the album, only a 24x24in vinyl slick that slid into the aisle endcaps... which overall was odd because Best Buy had heavily promoted The Dance. :shrug:
Thats a REALLY cool story. I am glad you shared.

[StevieandChris]

I love this album. It has some of my favorite LB songs --- my top list of his FM songs would be I'm So Afraid, Go Your Own Way, and Big Love and then I'd skip to many of his songs from this record: Peacekeeper, Bleed to Love Her, Steal Your Heart Away, and Miranda.

My two complaints are 1) Lack of Christine songs 2) I wish Smile At You was recorded more like the demos without the sound effects, not sure of the tech language.

[jmn3]

I love this album. It has some of my favorite LB songs --- my top list of his FM songs would be I'm So Afraid, Go Your Own Way, and Big Love and then I'd skip to many of his songs from this record: Peacekeeper, Bleed to Love Her, Steal Your Heart Away, and Miranda.

My two complaints are 1) Lack of Christine songs 2) I wish Smile At You was recorded more like the demos without the sound effects, not sure of the tech language.

BTLY and SYHA are two of my favorite LB songs as well. These were absolutely great! And I’ve long felt that two of my favorite demos from Mirage: Smile at You and If You Were My Love…both absolutely horrible in their eventual released forms decades later. I hate Smile at You on this album. It isn’t one tenth of the song that it was originally.

[StevieandChris]

BTLY and SYHA are two of my favorite LB songs as well. These were absolutely great! And I’ve long felt that two of my favorite demos from Mirage: Smile at You and If You Were My Love…both absolutely horrible in their eventual released forms decades later. I hate Smile at You on this album. It isn’t one tenth of the song that it was originally.

Smile at You really pales in comparison to the demos! I like several of the demos I've heard, all better than the version of SYW.

But I do love the 24 Karat Gold version of If You Were My Love, and I also love the Mirage outtake of If You Were My Love. It depends on my mood. The final version on 24KG is moodier/darker and makes me feel sad/reflective, the outtake version funkier and more upbeat and defiant. It's like Silver Springs. Sometimes I want The Dance version, sometimes I want the Rumours version.

[David]

Looking back on the album itself, I remain a fan of the new songs Stevie brought to the sessions (Illume, Thrown Down, Destiny Rules, Not Make Believe) and some of the GoS songs (especially Down on Rodeo, but NOT Come or Red Rover).

Anusha, I will have to reach deep inside myself to forgive you for not loving “Red Rover.”

[anusha]

Alas, I’m on board for a lot of Lindsey’s experimental stuff but not Red Rover.

I also prefer Stevie’s demos from the Rumours-Wild Heart timespan to most of what she has released as final versions later. In general I actually think that the production on Trouble in Shangri La got the essence of the demos better than what came out later on SYW or 24KG. Goes to show you that it’s better to record good songs when you have them and then figure out how to release them.

[jbrownsjr]

Goes to show you that it’s better to record good songs when you have them and then figure out how to release them.

Amen!!!!!!

[The Chain]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to this day I don't understand the faction of the fanbase that doesn't like the SYW version of Smile At You. That production is just immaculate.. Lindsey's guitar/arrangement, ESPECIALLY John's bass, Stevie's voice is strong here..hell even Mick's drum work which honestly can bore me sometimes.. and that outro! It's beautiful and dark, epic to my ears.

[The Chain]

Anusha, I will have to reach deep inside myself to forgive you for not loving “Red Rover.”

:laugh: agreed! Up there with my favorite Lindsey songs!! A very strange, compelling piece of music. The restless guitar, the vocal melody, the lyrics.. all very beautiful:nod:

[Villavic]

22 years since Say You Will was released.

For obvious reasons I agree with what this critic said "a record that never quite sounds like Fleetwood Mac", though it has some cool tracks.

https://www.allmusic.com/album/say-you-will-mw0000392278

[Penguin Emeritus]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to this day I don't understand the faction of the fanbase that doesn't like the SYW version of Smile At You. That production is just immaculate.. Lindsey's guitar/arrangement, ESPECIALLY John's bass, Stevie's voice is strong here..hell even Mick's drum work which honestly can bore me sometimes.. and that outro! It's beautiful and dark, epic to my ears.

I LOVE that syw version. imo john's bass makes the song. definitely beautiful and dark.

--Lis

[jbrownsjr]

I LOVE that syw version. imo john's bass makes the song. definitely beautiful and dark.

--Lis

John's bass might be the only thing I really cherish about this album.

[aleuzzi]

I remember first hearing it and hating the absence of Christine. Stevie sounded nasal and Buckingham’s tunes seemed tuneless. But then, about a week later, I listened with new ears and felt genuine excitement for about 2/3 of the songs. What I liked most were those songs that DIDN’T sound like traditional FM. “Illume,” “Everybody Finds Out,” “Red Rover,” and “Say Goodbye” all felt new and innovative to my ears. The musicianship was strong and even a little more aggressive—something that translated on the tours. While only a few songs on SYW match my enthusiasm for the bulk of IN THE MEANTIME, I was willing to accept this essentially new band, where the bros hit harder and Stevie’s attack was less precious, more direct and accessible. It all added up to an AMERICAN band backed with two monster rhythm players.

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

I never realized how central Christine was to the Mac chemistry until she wasn’t there. I also never realized how much she WAS the Mac sound until I heard ITM, and felt the bulk of it was more FM than FM—even though none of the remaining four were there.

Put another way, the BuckVie project, in which a different configuration of four FM members are present and one is absent, sounds a lot more like an actual FM record.

[HomerMcvie]

I remember first hearing it and hating the absence of Christine. Stevie sounded nasal and Buckingham’s tunes seemed tuneless. But then, about a week later, I listened with new ears and felt genuine excitement for about 2/3 of the songs. What I liked most were those songs that DIDN’T sound like traditional FM. “Illume,” “Everybody Finds Out,” “Red Rover,” and “Say Goodbye” all felt new and innovative to my ears. The musicianship was strong and even a little more aggressive—something that translated on the tours. While only a few songs on SYW match my enthusiasm for the bulk of IN THE MEANTIME, I was willing to accept this essentially new band, where the bros hit harder and Stevie’s attack was less precious, more direct and accessible. It all added up to an AMERICAN band backed with two monster rhythm players.

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

I never realized how central Christine was to the Mac chemistry until she wasn’t there. I also never realized how much she WAS the Mac sound until I heard ITM, and felt the bulk of it was more FM than FM—even though none of the remaining four were there.

Put another way, the BuckVie project, in which a different configuration of four FM members are present and one is absent, sounds a lot more like an actual FM record.

I agree with every word. SYW is just.... too empty. Christine really was what made it work.

WHAT would've happened if Christine had left the band in 1975, when they joined? WOULD they have had success? I'll bet they'd have had a couple of hits, then faded away. Take away SYLM,OMH,YMLF, and Don't Stop, and there's not a lot of mass appeal left, IMO.

[Villavic]

WHAT would've happened if Christine had left the band in 1975, when they joined? WOULD they have had success? .

We will never know how succesful they would have been, if they were. But definitely there would not have been the Rumours phenomenom. And who knows how long would that lineup have lasted.

My first thoughts coincide with you guys about Christine absence in SYW. I missed her a lot all those years. But I think that to get a complete Fleetwood Mac album, Richard Dashut's presence would have been great. And with Ken, ideal.

[aleuzzi]

I agree with every word. SYW is just.... too empty. Christine really was what made it work.

WHAT would've happened if Christine had left the band in 1975, when they joined? WOULD they have had success? I'll bet they'd have had a couple of hits, then faded away. Take away SYLM,OMH,YMLF, and Don't Stop, and there's not a lot of mass appeal left, IMO.

Not to mention Hold Me, Little Lies, and Everywhere…

But it’s also the album tracks. The white album without Sugar Daddy?! Egads.

[jbrownsjr]

I remember first hearing it and hating the absence of Christine. Stevie sounded nasal and Buckingham’s tunes seemed tuneless. But then, about a week later, I listened with new ears and felt genuine excitement for about 2/3 of the songs. What I liked most were those songs that DIDN’T sound like traditional FM. “Illume,” “Everybody Finds Out,” “Red Rover,” and “Say Goodbye” all felt new and innovative to my ears. The musicianship was strong and even a little more aggressive—something that translated on the tours. While only a few songs on SYW match my enthusiasm for the bulk of IN THE MEANTIME, I was willing to accept this essentially new band, where the bros hit harder and Stevie’s attack was less precious, more direct and accessible. It all added up to an AMERICAN band backed with two monster rhythm players.

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

I never realized how central Christine was to the Mac chemistry until she wasn’t there. I also never realized how much she WAS the Mac sound until I heard ITM, and felt the bulk of it was more FM than FM—even though none of the remaining four were there.

Put another way, the BuckVie project, in which a different configuration of four FM members are present and one is absent, sounds a lot more like an actual FM record.

Yea, couldn't have stated this any better. Spot on, observations.

[Tusky]

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.


SUCH a good post. The Dance was all about reminding us about what we loved about the band - the warmth, the chemistry, the familiar f***** up-ness and beauty. In retrospect SYW felt lacking a layer of organic creation because there wasn't. L&S never created together from the ground up. Unlike say Tango which had the L& Christine chemistry at the heart of so many of the songs. I think I spent a lot of time convincing myself I liked the album but...it <i>had</i> changed. I even think some of Trouble In Shangri-La has more the FMac spirit and like you said In The Meantime. Intellectually I respected and appreciated where Lindsey was coming from in his vision for the album, but it was at odds with what Stevie was bringing to the table and didn't work unlike say Tusk.

[Villavic]

the L& Christine chemistry at the heart of so many of the songs.

Well, he couldn't have described it better.

Christine and I... (https://youtu.be/eaLnxwj-jwo?list=PLzmmLnROlZRgXs_45Z8lkcM_a99p4WsAi&t=452)

[jbrownsjr]

Well, he couldn't have described it better.

Christine and I... (https://youtu.be/eaLnxwj-jwo?list=PLzmmLnROlZRgXs_45Z8lkcM_a99p4WsAi&t=452)

I remember I could recite this docu. haha

[FuzzyPlum]

Also, as much as Lindsey's production skills are lauded, maybe we under-value what Richard and Ken also brought to the table. I like Lindsey solo albums but I find they too lack a bit of warmth.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Also, as much as Lindsey's production skills are lauded, maybe we under-value what Richard and Ken also brought to the table. I like Lindsey solo albums but I find they too lack a bit of warmth.

Richard Dashut did help with the production on Law and Order and Out of the Cradle, but I certainly agree with this. Lindsey benefited considerably from the production choices of Ken Caillat, which is evident through his songs up through the Mirage album. As is the case with many people, Lindsey benefits from having another person in the room to provide additional input and improve his existing ideas. Ken really helped to extract some great ideas out of Lindsey, including the delicate guitar harmonics on "Oh Daddy" and "Silver Springs", which Lindsey wouldn't really explore much on his solo albums.

[Villavic]

I remember I could recite this docu. haha

Take me there, Ken. Take me back.

I was 31 in 1997. At that moment it seemed to me that Rumours had appeared a long time ago. Now it's 2025. Say no more.

[jbrownsjr]

Also, as much as Lindsey's production skills are lauded, maybe we under-value what Richard and Ken also brought to the table. I like Lindsey solo albums but I find they too lack a bit of warmth.

Absolutely, engineering is important. And I think when you try to do everything, things slip thru the cracks.

[jbrownsjr]

Take me there, Ken. Take me back.

I was 31 in 1997. At that moment it seemed to me that Rumours had appeared a long time ago. Now it's 2025. Say no more.

You too, KEN!!!

[Nathan]

You too, KEN!!!

Glad you survived it!

[jbrownsjr]

Glad you survived it!

Totally breaking up....

[BigAl84]

Looking back, had Christine participated...it would have been one of the best later-career comeback albums of all time. With Christines material thrown into the mix, there would of been no shortage of strong material to pick from to have a 12-14 track album.

The lack of warmth due to her absence is even more pronounced due to the 18 track length of the album.

For me the biggest disappointment to this day is that version of Smile At You. I appreciate the fact that they went a complete 180 from the other versions of it, but it just lags (IMO). I wish they would have cut it similar to the prior versions and made the released version a bonus track on the deluxe version etc.

[jbrownsjr]

Looking back, had Christine participated...it would have been one of the best later-career comeback albums of all time. With Christines material thrown into the mix, there would of been no shortage of strong material to pick from to have a 12-14 track album.

The lack of warmth due to her absence is even more pronounced due to the 18 track length of the album.

For me the biggest disappointment to this day is that version of Smile At You. I appreciate the fact that they went a complete 180 from the other versions of it, but it just lags (IMO). I wish they would have cut it similar to the prior versions and made the released version a bonus track on the deluxe version etc.

And had Christine participated, go to London and cut the album in 4 months.

Don't go to Lindsey's house. God, get out of the environment and give the album some flavor. Agreed, it has no flavor, connective tissue, or warmth.

[anusha]

I definitely agree -- Smile at You was such a murky synth heavy production, and it really didn't suit the song at all. I also was not a fan of Running in the Garden, but I think the song itself is just not my taste -- and it would have done better with Rock a Little or Other Side of the Mirror era production.

It is a paradox because I do think that these are the rare missteps that Lindsey has had with Stevie's songs as a producer. And, on the same album, Thrown Down and Destiny Rules are among the best work they've ever done together.

[Villavic]

I’m not saying that I’ve always been able to do that…

[Tusky]

Yeah some sweet combo of something like...
:angel:
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind
Friend
Fall From Grace
Anything Is Possible
Steal Your Heart Away
Planets of the Universe
You Are
Thrown Down
Calumny
If you ever did believe
Northern Star
Bad Journey
Everybody Finds Out
Say Goodbye

[jbrownsjr]

Yeah some sweet combo of something like...
:angel:
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind
Friend
Fall From Grace
Anything Is Possible
Steal Your Heart Away
Planets of the Universe
You Are
Thrown Down
Calumny
If you ever did believe
Northern Star
Bad Journey
Everybody Finds Out
Say Goodbye

You can't leave out Forgiveness. C'mon Tusky!!! :xoxo:

[Tusky]

:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:You can't leave out Forgiveness. C'mon Tusky!!! :xoxo:

:nod:

[BigAl84]

The warmth is what allowed Tusk to be experimental yet pleasant...and eventually, a highly-regarded album. Christine's material and voice were the honey in the tea. Say You Will just suffers from being a really strong earl grey that lacks the honey.

[Villavic]

The warmth is what allowed Tusk to be experimental yet pleasant...and eventually, a highly-regarded album. Christine's material and voice were the honey in the tea. Say You Will just suffers from being a really strong earl grey that lacks the honey.

I feel Stevie's Tusk songs as honey too. I do like some SYW Stevie songs, but after 24 years, that honey was kind of lost.

[Tusky]

The warmth is what allowed Tusk to be experimental yet pleasant...and eventually, a highly-regarded album. Christine's material and voice were the honey in the tea. Say You Will just suffers from being a really strong earl grey that lacks the honey.

S+L both felt the weight of expectation.

Lindsey felt the weight of their legacy and wanted to make them the oldies Radiohead.

Stevie tried to fill the void, writing 'Christine-like' songs that didn't land (SYW and ...Silver Girl).

As the result the album felt heavy

[David]

The warmth is what allowed Tusk to be experimental yet pleasant...and eventually, a highly-regarded album. Christine's material and voice were the honey in the tea. Say You Will just suffers from being a really strong earl grey that lacks the honey.

I detect only a faint hint of bergamot in “Steal Your Heart Away.”

[David]

S+L both felt the weight of expectation.

Lindsey felt the weight of their legacy and wanted to make them the oldies Radiohead.

Stevie tried to fill the void, writing 'Christine-like' songs that didn't land (SYW and ...Silver Girl).

As the result the album felt heavy

Interesting, interesting . . . .

To me, it’s the engineering that makes the album cold and heavy. Imagine most of those songs with a Caillat and Dashut at the helm, as in days of old.

[FuzzyPlum]

S+L both felt the weight of expectation.

Lindsey felt the weight of their legacy and wanted to make them the oldies Radiohead.

Stevie tried to fill the void, writing 'Christine-like' songs that didn't land (SYW and ...Silver Girl).

As the result the album felt heavy

Ha….SYW….the oldies Radiohead :laugh:

[sue]

Ha….SYW….the oldies Radiohead :laugh:

Sorry, I don’t get your quote ??
I am an oldie and kind of like Radiohead…(well a few of their songs)
But I can’t see the comparison…
SYW v Radiohead ?
Explain or it’ll drive me nuts..please