Destiny Rules documentary

[Moz]

I felt like watching this was but didn't feel like trying to find my DVD. I was happy to find the whole thing uploaded onto YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQOjptfZLJ4

Anyone watched this lately, especially after Lindsey's firing and everything that happened? What does everyone think about the documentary now?

I'm in the middle of watching it now. Had to laugh out loud at this exchange:

Stevie: Maybe we should have your guy mix, like, two of my songs that are...
Lindsey: Two, now? Okay. :rolleyes:

:lol:

[OutsideTheRain]

Simply put: you can easily see that the rest of the band can’t stand him but they put up with him for his creative genius . Stevie is over dramatic and reactionary but Lindsey really just goes out of his way to antagonize her.

[cbBen]

Not just for creativity, but for the name value of the (almost) Rumours lineup reforming for an album, which they actually seem to expect to sell much better than it would.

Behind The Mask and Time had sold poorly, while Tango and The Dance had sold well. The common denominator to good sales seemed to be having Lindsey and Stevie together.

I thought he downplayed her value [after getting her songs done he says they now just have to get her "presence on" (rather than "contribution to") his songs]. But how did he go out of his way to antagonize her?

I will say this: His idea of making it a double-CD was crazy (18 songs were too many). Stevie barely had enough songs to contribute to a single-disc album. If you can't say what you have to say in 80 minutes, something's wrong. He should have done what he "threatened" to do at the beginning: given them his most commercial songs and kept the others for solo work. He may have feared he couldn't get solo work released, but if he had gone to a label like Artemis he probably could have.

[Macfan4life]

I watched it on youtube a few years ago. In some ways it does not feel that long ago and in other ways its a reminder how long ago it was. Its fun to see the "old" cars and flip phones.
I really enjoyed it and glad they did it. I wish we could have gotten one for another album. I was so empathetic to Lindsey's plight. You can see so many of his Tusk elements for SYW. Everyone wanted a shorter commercial album. The sad part is when Mick says Lindsey will be really hurt and destroyed if the album only sells 500k copies. And guess what, the album sold 500k copies. Even that shows how long ago this was because an album today selling 500k copies would be hugely successful. The music industry was changing at such a rapid fashion.
I know I am in a minority on this board but I love the album. Of course it was hollow without Chris. But I am thankful they went forward and created the album. I really don't hate any of the songs. It used to be my workout CD back in the day so I must have listened to it a million times.

[sue]

I know I am in a minority on this board but I love the album. Of course it was hollow without Chris. But I am thankful they went forward and created the album. I really don't hate any of the songs. It used to be my workout CD back in the day so I must have listened to it a million times.

I also love this album…it took months to get into it, and even now it’s not always easy listening.
But I like that, something that’s complex and great to really get your teeth into.
Yes a couple of the songs I don’t appreciate…..but it never was Rumours.

[DownOnRodeo]

It used to be my workout CD back in the day

Destiny Rules is a great driving song.

I used to listen to it cycling home from work late at night, hurtling past the city lights and along a dark river. Now it always takes me back there.

[Karlie]

I watched it on youtube a few years ago. In some ways it does not feel that long ago and in other ways its a reminder how long ago it was. Its fun to see the "old" cars and flip phones.


I know I am in a minority on this board but I love the album. Of course it was hollow without Chris. But I am thankful they went forward and created the album. I really don't hate any of the songs. It used to be my workout CD back in the day so I must have listened to it a million times.

I totally agree. I rewatched it a few months ago and got a strange sense of nostalgia. My mind still thinks of SYW as their “new” album despite it being nearly 20 years old. Listening to it brings back the excitement of being 12 and going to Tower Records after school to buy a brand new Fleetwood Mac CD for the first time ever.

Of course I could (and have) spend hours imagining how much better and different it would have been if Chris had been part of it. (That could be a whole other thread in itself.) But I’m also glad it happened. I’d place Thrown Down, Smile At You, Everybody Finds Out, and Destiny Rules among Stevie’s best songs of all time, and I like most of Lindsey’s songs on it too. Plus I see it as the spark that started the long cycles of touring that eventually gave Christine something to come back to when she was ready.

[HomerMcvie]

Plus I see it as the spark that started the long cycles of touring that eventually gave Christine something to come back to when she was ready.

Endless touring started when people stopped buying cds. Artists were no longer making enough money off album sales, and had to resort to touring constantly for the income.

[SteveMacD]

Endless touring started when people stopped buying cds. Artists were no longer making enough money off album sales, and had to resort to touring constantly for the income.

I’m not sure how much of that applies to Fleetwood Mac. Rumours alone has to line their pockets.

[HomerMcvie]

I’m not sure how much of that applies to Fleetwood Mac. Rumours alone has to line their pockets.

So that's why Mick has been bankrupt(financially, but also morally) so many times.

They haven't earned much from BTM, Time, SYW, or BuckVie. And Tango is 35 years ago.

[SteveMacD]

So that's why Mick has been bankrupt(financially, but also morally) so many times.

They haven't earned much from BTM, Time, SYW, or BuckVie. And Tango is 35 years ago.

I’d be willing to bet all of his bankruptcies since 1984 are Chapter 7 to do away with business debts. I’d be shocked if most of his ventures aren’t LLCs. That’s completely different from what happened in 1984. Businesses do it all of the time.

[Macfan4life]

Destiny Rules is a great driving song.

I used to listen to it cycling home from work late at night, hurtling past the city lights and along a dark river. Now it always takes me back there.
Absolutely.
It was my jogging CD if you could picture that today its laughable but if you remember when portable CD players came out they would skip if you jerked it or ran with it. The more expensive ones did not skip and I was so proud of it. So much of the album has an intenseness good for running or cycling. Even songs like Illume are angry and make you give that extra punch. When Everybody Finds Out came on, my pace would definitely pick up.
Your line about cycling next to a dark river with city lights in the background brings me to:
I like the coastal cities, I like the lights
I like the way the ocean bends into the city at night
It's like living on a working river this coastline is glittering
Like a diamond snake In a black sky

I love when the music hits home like that

When OSOTM came out I was under the influence of something walking along Daytona Beach at night listening to the cassette. It was one of the most magical times in my life and the part in Ghosts "and you feel as if someone is following you" I would always turn around and look :lol:

[jbrownsjr]

To me, this documentary is a clear visual of Lindsey trying to produce a Fleetwood Mac album, and Stevie's politics taking over the band in a way where, even her staff nearly have the same standing as a member of the band.

The album itself is non-cohesive and cold to say the least. Some great tunes on SYW, but the ^ above^ shift in power is playing out on a documentary. Add to that, the heart of Fleetwood Mac was in Great Britain restoring a house.

Two egos, an industry that's not even close to considering a single album, let alone a double. From a band that is absent of a key singer/songwriter.

Touring is the only option now to keep everyone afloat financially. Let's just hope the experience was good for Stevie since she has all the star power.
Let's see how this plays out. :shocked:

[UnwindedDreams]

To me, this documentary is a clear visual of Lindsey trying to produce a Fleetwood Mac album, and Stevie's politics taking over the band in a way where, even her staff nearly have the same standing as a member of the band.

The album itself is non-cohesive and cold to say the least. Some great tunes on SYW, but the ^ above^ shift in power is playing out on a documentary. Add to that, the heart of Fleetwood Mac was in Great Britain restoring a house.

Two egos, an industry that's not even close to considering a single album, let alone a double. From a band that is absent of a key singer/songwriter.

Touring is the only option now to keep everyone afloat financially. Let's just hope the experience was good for Stevie since she has all the star power.
Let's see how this plays out. :shocked:
I think the documentary shows that Stevie got what she wanted with this album. Her favorite Chris Lord-Alge mixed her songs, but she wound up liking Mark Needham's mixes better so she only used Chris Lord-Alge's mix for one song.

I also wonder if they did a double album, how many songs would it have been? 30? And would Stevie have brought songs that were on In Your Dreams or 24 Karat Gold to the table for Say You Will?

[HomerMcvie]

Let's see how this plays out. :shocked:

It's played out. Over. Kaput.

Christine's death was the end. The stupid old goat firing Lindsey ended the band for me. Now with Christine's loss, THEY'RE DEAD TO ME. I'd go to a Lindsey solo show, but other than that, Mick can starve to death, for all I care. Merry Christmas, indeed...

[jbrownsjr]

It's played out. Over. Kaput.

Christine's death was the end. The stupid old goat firing Lindsey ended the band for me. Now with Christine's loss, THEY'RE DEAD .

YIPPERS..It played out.

[HomerMcvie]

YIPPERS..It played out.

Many thanks to the stupid old goat for ruining the last chapter of the band of our lives.

[cbBen]

I think the documentary shows that Stevie got what she wanted with this album. Her favorite Chris Lord-Alge mixed her songs, but she wound up liking Mark Needham's mixes better so she only used Chris Lord-Alge's mix for one song.

Not quite. Lord-Alge mixed one (maybe two) of her songs and she then relented and agreed to go with Lindsey's guy under duress. Stevie didn't choose Needham over Lord-Alge due to preferring the former's results. Rather, she chose not to fight about it with Lindsey and for the sake of social harmony just let him have his way.

I always felt Lindsey's reason for opposing Lord-Alge (at least as he states in the documentary) was a stupid one: that he works fast. So what? I work fast too, because I'm good at what I do and can do a good job fast.

What he could have said instead (and what is probably closer to the truth): As producer, I need the authority to choose and supervise post-production personnel. Perhaps he felt that would have been too politically toxic. I notice on Live At Boston that Lord-Alge mixes Stevie's songs and Needham mixes Lindsey's, just as was contemplated for Say You Will.

A while back I asked here whether, based on the one song on the album Lord-Alge mixed vs. the other songs, who was the better mixer. You all overwhelmingly responded that he was rather than Needham.

Leaving aside 24-Karat Gold, no songs from In Your Dreams would have gone on a longer Say You Will because none were complete at the time other than "Annabel Lee" (the best song on the album), which Stevie had forgotten about and was reminded of during the making of the album. Put that song on Say You Will and make it the lead single and maybe–just maybe–the album fares better.

One job of a producer is to pester relentlessly the songwriter (or the songwriter's staff) for everything in his or her hip pocket. Lindsey should have excavated "Annabel Lee."

[SteveMacD]

Many thanks to the stupid old goat for ruining the last chapter of the band of our lives.

Rock’s greatest soap opera ended with a plot twist? Who would’ve guessed?

[bombaysaffires]

I think the documentary shows that Stevie got what she wanted with this album. Her favorite Chris Lord-Alge mixed her songs, but she wound up liking Mark Needham's mixes better so she only used Chris Lord-Alge's mix for one song.

I also wonder if they did a double album, how many songs would it have been? 30? And would Stevie have brought songs that were on In Your Dreams or 24 Karat Gold to the table for Say You Will?

I think she would disagree with this. She, in the end, was NOT happy with the album and NOT happy with the production of most of her songs. She wasn't especially fond of how Lindsey produced Thrown Down for sure. She would say that she did what she feels she's always had to do with LB as producer and that is compromise to keep the peace and as a result not like some of the results. She's always talked about how when a song is done not to her liking, she just loses interest in it. Or you wish you'd fought harder or whatever. I recall when she later did IYD with Dave she made it a point to say and to have it shown in the doc how much she DID know how she wanted her songs to sound, and added that it was so much easier working with someone (Dave) who didn't take her not taking their suggestions or contributions on a song personally. After SYW she never wanted to record with LB again.

As for her liking Needham's mixes better... she says something to that effect in the doc, but I don't believe her. I think she was just capitulating to make it easier for the band. Especially based on what she said after the album and then the tour for SYW was done. Once she's done her due diligence, been a good soldier and sold whatever is the latest album and tour in all the interviews etc "best ever " blah blah blah, once the money has been made and it's done and dusted, THEN her real feelings come out.

[SteveMacD]

She wasn't especially fond of how Lindsey produced Thrown Down for sure.

And, she’s wrong on that. The demos were almost as lifeless as “Dreams” until Lindsey did something with them. “Thrown Down” was one of the best on the album.

[UnwindedDreams]

Not quite. Lord-Alge mixed one (maybe two) of her songs and she then relented and agreed to go with Lindsey's guy under duress. Stevie didn't choose Needham over Lord-Alge due to preferring the former's results. Rather, she chose not to fight about it with Lindsey and for the sake of social harmony just let him have his way.

I always felt Lindsey's reason for opposing Lord-Alge (at least as he states in the documentary) was a stupid one: that he works fast. So what? I work fast too, because I'm good at what I do and can do a good job fast.

What he could have said instead (and what is probably closer to the truth): As producer, I need the authority to choose and supervise post-production personnel. Perhaps he felt that would have been too politically toxic. I notice on Live At Boston that Lord-Alge mixes Stevie's songs and Needham mixes Lindsey's, just as was contemplated for Say You Will.

A while back I asked here whether, based on the one song on the album Lord-Alge mixed vs. the other songs, who was the better mixer. You all overwhelmingly responded that he was rather than Needham.

Leaving aside 24-Karat Gold, no songs from In Your Dreams would have gone on a longer Say You Will because none were complete at the time other than "Annabel Lee" (the best song on the album), which Stevie had forgotten about and was reminded of during the making of the album. Put that song on Say You Will and make it the lead single and maybe–just maybe–the album fares better.

One job of a producer is to pester relentlessly the songwriter (or the songwriter's staff) for everything in his or her hip pocket. Lindsey should have excavated "Annabel Lee."
Ok, I'll believe you and stand corrected. In my recollection of the documnentary, I thought she had Chris mix Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, Silver Girl, and Illume which I think were the four songs she did in Phoenix right before coming to meet Mick, John, and Lindsey. And then she decided to keep Chris' mix of Destiny Rules for the album.

As far as not using songs from In Your Dreams for Say You Will, wouldn't Secret Love and My Heart have been completed by 2002?

[cbBen]

Ok, I'll believe you and stand corrected. In my recollection of the documnentary, I thought she had Chris mix Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, Silver Girl, and Illume which I think were the four songs she did in Phoenix right before coming to meet Mick, John, and Lindsey. And then she decided to keep Chris' mix of Destiny Rules for the album.

As far as not using songs from In Your Dreams for Say You Will, wouldn't Secret Love and My Heart have been completed by 2002?

Maybe you're right about it being four songs. As I recall it (perhaps wrongly), the agreement was for Lord-Alge to mix one or two songs of hers and then perhaps more, but she relented after the one or two and agreed to Needham.

As for "Secret Love" and "My Heart," I didn't know they were pre-2002 songs. If they are, I'm the one who must stand corrected.

[cbBen]

As for her liking Needham's mixes better... she says something to that effect in the doc, but I don't believe her. I think she was just capitulating to make it easier for the band. Especially based on what she said after the album and then the tour for SYW was done. Once she's done her due diligence, been a good soldier and sold whatever is the latest album and tour in all the interviews etc "best ever " blah blah blah, once the money has been made and it's done and dusted, THEN her real feelings come out.

As evidenced by Live In Boston, where she has Lord-Alge mix her songs while Needham mixes Lindsey's.

[HomerMcvie]

Rock’s greatest soap opera ended with a plot twist? Who would’ve guessed?

We could have had one final album from the band, if it weren't for her.

[Macfan4life]

Are we forgetting. We got the best quote from this documentary that is used all the time on this board: Would you say that to Bob Dylan?

Looking back I wish Christine was allowed to partake in the SYW sessions even though she would not tour. But I completely understand why they were not crazy about that idea. Fleetwood Mac was trying to be relevant in they are a band still creating new stuff. Members that are half in sort of dissolves that premise a bit. But we did get a sensational solo album by Chris the next year.

Yes we are all bitter. Stevie put up with all this drama for decades. She could not have done it for one more album and tour? They dont even see each other on the road except on stage. The silliest and stupidest firing in rock history since Sammy Hagar.

[SteveMacD]

We could have had one final album from the band, if it weren't for her.

We did. Did you really miss her on LBCM?

That said, they could have put “Miss Fantasy,” “Without You,” “Sad Angel,” and “Not Make Believe” on the album, dubbed in Christine, and released it as Fleetwood Mac “On With The Show” in late 2017.

[UnwindedDreams]

Maybe you're right about it being four songs. As I recall it (perhaps wrongly), the agreement was for Lord-Alge to mix one or two songs of hers and then perhaps more, but she relented after the one or two and agreed to Needham.

As for "Secret Love" and "My Heart," I didn't know they were pre-2002 songs. If they are, I'm the one who must stand corrected.
I think Say You Will was one of the Phoenix four songs and not Illume, so my bad. But I think Destiny Rules was the only one mixed by Mr. CLA.

I thought the Lord-Alge decision was because of his price as in I thought Lindsey wanted Needham because his fee was less than Lord-Alge's.

[bombaysaffires]

I think Say You Will was one of the Phoenix four songs and not Illume, so my bad. But I think Destiny Rules was the only one mixed by Mr. CLA.

I thought the Lord-Alge decision was because of his price as in I thought Lindsey wanted Needham because his fee was less than Lord-Alge's.

Lindsey felt Needham was more creative, and actually thought about the songs he was mixing, rather than the production-line (no pun intended) approach of CLA, who is in high demand and thus needs to crank each song out within..what was it, like 4 hours? So that way he could presumably finish 2 a day and fit in all his clients... So basically LB felt like CLA wasn't doing anything creative or unique for a given song but rather giving it the cookie-cutter CLA treatment, whereas Needham really crafted each song to what suited it best. Recall how LB was impressed with how Needham fit in the "together, together, together" vocal with Lindsey's trademark twinkly guitar sound on his mix of Thrown Down. Honestly my sense with Stevie is she wants to make sure her vocals are loud and upfront. That was the thing that really struck me when BD came out... how way out in front of the rest of the tracks her voice was, giving it a somewhat harsher effect, compared to where they put her in the mix on the FM albums up to that point. Compare the official mix of Silver Springs to the remixes later where they pull the louder, stronger vocal out (her preference). One thing I loved (and others often don't) is how upfront Sharon and Lori's harmonies are on BD. As she did more albums, their vocals got further back as well, and hers even more upfront. "I wanna be a staaarrrr....I don't wanna be a cleaning lady"

[RockyRaccoon]

Maybe a little off-topic but I wish somebody would have convinced Lindsey to slow down "Say Goodbye" or even re-record it as a proper duet with Stevie (I think she just put her vocal on top of his solo recording) and make it sound closer to the live arrangement.

[cbBen]

Maybe a little off-topic but I wish somebody would have convinced Lindsey to slow down "Say Goodbye" or even re-record it as a proper duet with Stevie (I think she just put her vocal on top of his solo recording) and make it sound closer to the live arrangement.

Me too. He was cutting corners by not redoing it. And as you say, at least slow it down – or save it for Under The Skin, where a sped-up version (without Stevie) would have fit.

What is "BD"? "Blue Denim"?

[Wdm6789]

They had to have Lindsey and Stevie to tour as Fleetwood Mac. With Christine retired at the time, it couldn’t just be Stevie, Mick, and John, that pretty much would have been a Stevie solo tour with Mick and John on drums and bass.

With Christine’s death, it makes he resent that they fired Lindsey in 2018 right before what should have been their farewell tour. It would have been the perfect final chapter in their legacy. I can respect and empathize with Stevie for not wanting a toxic work environment and not being able to put up with Lindsey anymore, but at that point, she had done it for so many years, she could have stuck it out for one more tour with him. And Lindsey for not wanting to compromise on their proposed timeline for the tour. He knew Christine was in a delicate state, he had just toured with her in 2017 and even mentioned it in an email to Mick. That first TV interview they did when they announced Lindsey’s removal from the band, you can see on Christine, Mick, and John’s faces that they were not happy with the situation.

[UnwindedDreams]

I can respect and empathize with Stevie for not wanting a toxic work environment and not being able to put up with Lindsey anymore, but at that point, she had done it for so many years, she could have stuck it out for one more tour with him.
I do too for Stevie and anyone feeling or being abused. However, it's still unknown by us what was toxic? That night at MusiCares, she wrapped her arm around his arm. They held hands on the red carpet. What did he do to her? Why didn't Mick or John do anything about it like pushing him up against the wall and saying you do that again and I'll eff you up!

[jbrownsjr]

We did. Did you really miss her on LBCM?

That said, they could have put “Miss Fantasy,” “Without You,” “Sad Angel,” and “Not Make Believe” on the album, dubbed in Christine, and released it as Fleetwood Mac “On With The Show” in late 2017.

Really, I think that's how SYW was made. Dubbing in the other vocals. It would have been nice in another dimension if they had Christine's keys on all songs. (If she had been welcome to participate).
I think Christine would have helped balance Lindsey in the studio emotionally as well. Without her, it was a mess of nasty emotions. No longer break up emotions, but greed and control issues.

I didn't miss Stevie on LBCM. I wouldn't have minded is she was the one who left the band and they continued as a 4some. The four of them touring in smaller venues would have been sensational.

[elle]

To me, this documentary is a clear visual of Lindsey trying to produce a Fleetwood Mac album, and Stevie's politics taking over the band in a way where, even her staff nearly have the same standing as a member of the band.

yes.

i love Destiny Rules doc, but compare it to the warm and easy Making of Buckingham McVie, and it's easy to see where all the drama and toxicity was coming from in Fleetwood Mac.

[cbBen]

yes.

i love Destiny Rules doc, but compare it to the warm and easy Making of Buckingham McVie, and it's easy to see where all the drama and toxicity was coming from in Fleetwood Mac.

Unlike Stevie, Christine didn't have a solo career to put on hold when working with Lindsey or with FM as a whole.

My theory: After 2002 (maybe 2004), Stevie wanted to get away from Lindsey for good. She promoted Say You Will in 2003-04, but couldn't get Lindsey out of FM until Christine returned, as the band needed at least two of its Rumours lead vocalists.

When Christine returned Stevie finally had her chance, but needed a tour with Christine in the fold before making a move. Then the Buckingham McVie project postponed her taking action. The 2017 East-West concerts were too small in number to justify a coup then. Then there was MusiCares.

Finally, and especially having come off her most successful solo tour perhaps ever, she made her move. I believe she may have been prepared to walk away from the band had they chosen Lindsey over her (she didn't need it anymore). But as they were now strictly a live act and not a recording one, she was clearly more valuable to the enterprise.

And so, at long last, she got away from Lindsey.

[HomerMcvie]

Unlike Stevie, Christine didn't have a solo career to put on hold when working with Lindsey or with FM as a whole.

My theory: After 2002 (maybe 2004), Stevie wanted to get away from Lindsey for good. She promoted Say You Will in 2003-04, but couldn't get Lindsey out of FM until Christine returned, as the band needed at least two of its Rumours lead vocalists.

When Christine returned Stevie finally had her chance, but needed a tour with Christine in the fold before making a move. Then the Buckingham McVie project postponed her taking action. The 2017 East-West concerts were too small in number to justify a coup then. Then there was MusiCares.

Finally, and especially having come off her most successful solo tour perhaps ever, she made her move. I believe she may have been prepared to walk away from the band had they chosen Lindsey over her (she didn't need it anymore). But as they were now strictly a live act and not a recording one, she was clearly more valuable to the enterprise.

And so, at long last, she got away from Lindsey.

And ruined the final chapter of our band. I hope she regrets it, although I seriously doubt that she does.

[jbrownsjr]

And ruined the final chapter of our band. I hope she regrets it, although I seriously doubt that she does.

Steve, you, Elle, Tony, and I have been saying all along that it would have been a blessing to get a four-piece. Market it correctly and that little niche of FleetBuckVie could have been some great albums and tours.

I think we even did Setlists:

The Chain
You Make Lovin Fun
In My World
Don't Stop
Red Sun
World Turning
Got A Hold On Me
Trouble
I'm So Afraid
Say You Love Me
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight
Big Love (band)
Bleed To Love Her
Get Like You Used To Be
Go Your Own Way

Encore
On With The Show
Carnival Begin

You and I Part II (Acappella)

[jbrownsjr]

Unlike Stevie, Christine didn't have a solo career to put on hold when working with Lindsey or with FM as a whole.



Even if she did have a solo project, I don't see Christine being toxic with her band. Her ego was mostly in tact her entire career. That's why she's a billion times more important that Nick$.

[elle]

Unlike Stevie, Christine didn't have a solo career to put on hold when working with Lindsey or with FM as a whole..

wait, so you are saying if one is more successful than others around them they have to be toxic to those people? while just a tiny a bit less successful people can have nice warm working relationships?

interesting theory. might be happening in many bands, but hopefully not most.

[Macfan4life]

Unlike Stevie, Christine didn't have a solo career to put on hold when working with Lindsey or with FM as a whole.

My theory: After 2002 (maybe 2004), Stevie wanted to get away from Lindsey for good. She promoted Say You Will in 2003-04, but couldn't get Lindsey out of FM until Christine returned, as the band needed at least two of its Rumours lead vocalists.

When Christine returned Stevie finally had her chance, but needed a tour with Christine in the fold before making a move. Then the Buckingham McVie project postponed her taking action. The 2017 East-West concerts were too small in number to justify a coup then. Then there was MusiCares.

Finally, and especially having come off her most successful solo tour perhaps ever, she made her move. I believe she may have been prepared to walk away from the band had they chosen Lindsey over her (she didn't need it anymore). But as they were now strictly a live act and not a recording one, she was clearly more valuable to the enterprise.

And so, at long last, she got away from Lindsey.
That's a lot of forethought and planning. If she wanted to get away from Lindsey and only do her solo career then why did she do a giant Unleashed tour with Lindsey and the Mac?
I just think she really resented working with Lindsey from SYW on. She still maintained her loyalty to Fleetwood Mac for Mick and John's sake and tolerated Lindsey. No doubt going on 2 huge world back to back tours with Fleetwood Mac 2013-2015 really drove Stevie insane. The Miami 2015 show had Stevie publicly going after Lindsey on stage. However when Lindsey and the rest of Fleetwood Mac went on recording without her was a bridge too far. Pretend for a moment the band did not record the Buck/Vie album. I would bet the house the 2018 World tour would have resumed without Lindsey's firing. It was petty, silly, and rock's stupidest firing since Sammy Hagar. Stevie's power in the band went full tilt when Chris left. The band operated on the perimeter when Stevie gave the green light. Suddenly Chris is back and Stevie did not give the green light to record and tour without her. That had to drive her nuts. Even though she would never admit it the jealousy she felt when Lindsey and Christine wrote and performed World Turning in 1975 was still there. The only difference is that Stevie had no power in 1975 and had all the power in 2018.

[cbBen]

For $. At that point she had more use for FM more than she would in 2018. As I say, I bet she really was prepared to walk away had they chosen Lindsey over her.

She rebuilt her solo career from the ground up starting in 2005. By 2008 (when she would have had to commit to the 2009 tour), she hadn't built it back up enough even to approach outgrowing the band.

As for her solo success necessitating her being toxic:

1. No doesn't necessitate it, just makes it possible.
2. I would characterize it more as power than toxicity (though maybe it was both). They needed her more than vice-versa.

[RockyRaccoon]

I hate the way Lindsey was dismissed but also remember that Lindsey survived a major heart attack while Fleetwood Mac was on their tour and in that case it might be a good thing he wasn’t touring himself when that happened. I think in the end, maybe it was better for him to get out of the stressful environment of Stevie, Mick, playing giant arenas, etc. even if the circumstances were less than ideal.

[jbrownsjr]

For $. At that point she had use for FM more than she would in 2018. As I say, I bet she really was prepared to walk away had they chosen Lindsey over her.

She rebuilt her solo career from the ground up starting in 2005. By 2008 (when she would have had to commit to the 2009 tour), she hadn't built it back up enough even to approach outgrowing the band.

As for her solo success necessitating her being toxic:

1. No doesn't necessitate it, just makes it possible.
2. I would characterize it more as power than toxicity (though maybe it was both). They needed her more than vice-versa.

As the title says: Destiny Rules!

[UnwindedDreams]

She rebuilt her solo career from the ground up starting in 2005. By 2008 (when she would have had to commit to the 2009 tour), she hadn't built it back up enough even to approach outgrowing the band.

Stevie did not rebuild her solo career starting from the ground up in 2005. If anything, she rebuilt it in 1998. She rode The Dance momentum right up to 2001 and was on the music video channels. She had a top 5 album at age 52. In 2002, she worked on SYW. Then from 2003-2004, FM did 135 shows.
In 2005, she rode the momentum from SYW, getting big bucks to play a mini- residency in Vegas. And I'm sure she got a huge advance to do a co-headlining tour with Henley that year. The next year, she was playing arenas and stadiums in Australia (some were co-headlines with John Farnham).

Stevie didn't rebuild. She just did concerts every year, went on tv shows, and released greatest hits or live album dvd.

Once American Horror Story had her on and news got out that Harry Styles partied with her backstage at The o2, she was bigger than FM.

[cbBen]

I hate the way Lindsey was dismissed but also remember that Lindsey survived a major heart attack while Fleetwood Mac was on their tour and in that case it might be a good thing he wasn’t touring himself when that happened. I think in the end, maybe it was better for him to get out of the stressful environment of Stevie, Mick, playing giant arenas, etc. even if the circumstances were less than ideal.

Had Lindsey not been fired, the medical checkup mandated by insurance for a major-artist tour may well have caught the heart problem and prevented emergency surgery. That's exactly what happened to Mick Jagger before the Stones were set to tour. He was able to get a valve replacement instead of more major surgery.

[anusha]

It’s strange. I remember how much the fans who loved The Dance were so excited for SYW. I still think there are great moments on the album, in particular the moments that LB/SN worked together on her newer songs — Thrown Down, Destiny Rules, SYW, Illume. Looking back, I think some of the production was too muddy, like Running in the Garden, Smile at You. And Lindsey hadn’t been open to working from the ground up on his songs with Stevie for decades, if ever. Going back to BN, his songs were always somewhat hermetically sealed. While a double album likely didn’t make business sense and may not have been the best artistic choice, as a fan, I was glad to have the music.

As far as how SYW fits into the SN dynamic with the band, it seems much clearer in retrospect. Back in 1996, SN had a dud of an album with Street Angel, and FM was struggling with Time and that lineup. Getting LB back into the fold and doing The Dance was SN’s and FM’s shot at breaking back into the big money touring and albums — it worked for The Eagles with Hell Freezes Over.

Once they had their big payday with The Dance, they decided to do another album but the record selling business fell apart in the intervening 4 years with Napster. If SYW had sold 5 million or 8 million copies off the bat, we would still be listening to Stevie talk about how LB put beauty into her songs like she did when they were promoting The Dance. But once it was clear that the old FM studio Magic and particularly the big sales of FM albums with LB were in the past, there was literally no way Stevie was going to go back to that.

So FM go into the big money touring years, but Stevie has also been very sharp about having a strong image and forging public connections to younger artists. As time goes on, she’s able to build solo ticket sales to similar size venues to what FM could sell. She was willing to do FM to help Mike Campbell and Mick, but now she really has no need to do it and no need to stay connected to FM when she got a lot of backlash for booting Lindsey. The band was over as a creative endeavor after SYW didn’t sell big, but it limped along for the money until the Finn/Campbell tour. I’m sorry Christine had to suffer through this dysfunction and am very sorry she passed away, but I don’t mourn FM. At some point, hanging around all that dysfunction and unkindness isn’t good for anyone.

[SteveMacD]

Back in 1996, SN had a dud of an album with Street Angel, and FM was struggling with Time and that lineup. Getting LB back into the fold and doing The Dance was SN’s and FM’s shot at breaking back into the big money touring and albums —

In all reality, all Stevie needed to do was quit smoking, drop 25-30 pounds, and have a “comeback” special with relevant artists of the time, like Sheryl Crow and the Foo Fighters. Maybe have Petty and Henley in for good measure. Now, a Fleetwood Mac reunion was more durable, but she would have still been fine without Fleetwood Mac.

Mick, John, Christine, and especially Lindsey needed the reunion more than Stevie. Let’s not forget that OOTC, his masterpiece, tanked pretty badly. He wasn’t commercially viable as a solo artist and needed to be back in Fleetwood Mac. (Let’s not forget that the label stuck one of their producers on him.)

[RockyRaccoon]

When you think about it, even though Stevie has built this popular cultural image that's almost bigger than Fleetwood Mac, her Fleetwood Mac songs are still what she's mostly known for with the younger generation. Aside from her biggest hits like Edge of Seventeen, Stand Back, Stop Draggin' My Heart Around, but I would say even those songs are not as well known these days as Dreams, Rhiannon, or Landslide. And most of her solo albums in general are pretty much forgotten aside from the first two. Her career is kind of paradoxical in that way.

[cbBen]

And even the second would be forgotten were it not for "Stand Back." (I wonder what Lindsey would have done with that song – and for that matter with "Rooms On Fire," "Blue Denim," "Trouble In Shangri-La," Candlebright," and "Sorcerer.")

As for why Lindsey lacked a viable solo career :

1. In 1991, grunge overtook pretty much all other kinds of music, and particularly the sort Lindsey made.
2. After "Trouble" "Holiday Road" "Go Insane" and "Slow Dancing" (not a hit but it at least it sounds like one) he never again wrote a "hit" (other than "Big Love," which would not have been one as a solo release). For all its merits, Out Of The Cradle lacks a big commercial song.

They all were, but indeed Lindsey more so than Stevie was fortunate FM reformed. I'm sure he felt as though he brought more to the table, and perhaps artistically he did (though once they stopped recording albums, and once the prospect of albums turning a big profit went away, his value diminished); but Stevie brought more commercially (bear in mind that Stevie had Dance Club hits on Trouble In Shangri-La).

The documentary gives the impression that Lindsey doesn't appreciate just how much more. He seems to be of the mind than he is more helping out her than vice-versa.

[Ulpian]

In all reality, all Stevie needed to do was quit smoking, drop 25-30 pounds, and have a “comeback” special with relevant artists of the time, like Sheryl Crow and the Foo Fighters. Maybe have Petty and Henley in for good measure. Now, a Fleetwood Mac reunion was more durable, but she would have still been fine without Fleetwood Mac.

Mick, John, Christine, and especially Lindsey needed the reunion more than Stevie. Let’s not forget that OOTC, his masterpiece, tanked pretty badly. He wasn’t commercially viable as a solo artist and needed to be back in Fleetwood Mac. (Let’s not forget that the label stuck one of their producers on him.)

I’m not sure Christine needed it. After Time she was done. She didn’t really need the money, although I’m sure that was a bonus. She could have just retired to Kent in the mid 90s and it’s entirely possible that we would not really have heard from her professionally again.

[Penguin Emeritus]

I’m not sure Christine needed it. After Time she was done. She didn’t really need the money, although I’m sure that was a bonus. She could have just retired to Kent in the mid 90s and it’s entirely possible that we would not really have heard from her professionally again.

I agree she didn't need it financially...if she was worth about 120 million dollars, I'm sure she could pay her bills lol. I think she really needed it emotionally, though, to get herself out of that isolation that had dragged her down towards the end of her 'retirement.' I'm still so glad she came back, and gave herself and the band and all of us that gift.

-Lis

[jbrownsjr]

I’m not sure Christine needed it. After Time she was done. She didn’t really need the money, although I’m sure that was a bonus. She could have just retired to Kent in the mid 90s and it’s entirely possible that we would not really have heard from her professionally again.

I agree. Had she bounced off The Dance and marketed/toured ITM sooner than 2004, she might have had some true sales and fame. Especially, in Great Britain where she is beloved. But, she was tired, probably didn't need money with her new lifestyle and selling of some rights.

Thank God, she left us a HUGE library of songs. I really miss her. It's been a rough December.

[elle]

The documentary gives the impression that Lindsey doesn't appreciate just how much more. He seems to be of the mind than he is more helping out her than vice-versa.

i think you hit the nail on the head - why Stevie was so eager to get rid of Lindsey. he didn't treat her as diva she became. he treated her as someone he grew up with and knew forever.

think about the line in the doc when he says "Karen is telling ME?"
As someone said in this thread, Stevie wanted even her staff to be treated above other FM members.

remember how Stevie always touted how she knew Lindsey before he was this big rock star? the same for him. but she wanted him to treat her as a huge diva she became, not as someone he knew his whole adult life. other than Lindsey, only her parents seemed to have been able to treat her like that, and by the time 2018 rolled around, both of them were gone. and Lindsey was now in her way, daring to not worship her.

one thing though - after the Dance they all became huge for a minute, and Lindsey was on the Stevie level. his return to the band was touted as huge, as well as Stevie-Lindsey dynamic with Silver Springs.

even though Lindsey had solo album almost ready to go, his natural procrastination and need for perfectionism killed his opportunity to ride on the Dance coattails (same as his working on OOTC for years made it come out at the height of the grunge era which killed any chances for that album to be appreciated at the time). Lindsey had horrible timing with many of his endeavors. meanwhile Stevie jumped on FM's newfound coolness and popularity after the Dance, and didn't want to have anything to do with FM, but was riding its coattails for re-building her dead solo career. her (or whoever is managing her career) has had impeccable timing and willingness to try anything that can make her persona more popular. by the time she finally agreed for FM to make an album together (2001 on), her solo career was successfully resurrected while FM huge popularity wave and interest for them blew over.

it's always been interesting to me, how Harry Styles and 1D guys, the same as Lorde, and Haim, were FM fans first, not SN solo fans. FM concert in LA blew up on social media in 2014 because 1D band members including HS were there! unlike other members who just appreciated and acknowledged these young and many of them hugely popular people grew up as their fans, SN put in the work to pursue that connection, and made it look like these people are really just Stevie fans, not FM. she's been building those relationships while basking in the admiration and diva treatment these now hugely popular young people gave her, which was in return giving her a boost and fraction of their popularity.

[elle]

I agree. Had she bounced off The Dance and marketed/toured ITM sooner than 2004, she might have had some true sales and fame. Especially, in Great Britain where she is beloved. But, she was tired, probably didn't need money with her new lifestyle and selling of some rights.

Thank God, she left us a HUGE library of songs. I really miss her. It's been a rough December.

yes. all 3 songwriters could if they knew what they wanted, were smart enough to understand the plans of other FM members, and seized on the timing. Stevie and her team knew what they wanted to do. Christine was just tired and had enough, and Lindsey was hoping they'll follow FM newfound popularity with FM album, and was willing to put solo career on hold. the result - no FM album at the end of 20th century, and no LB solo album either. the first FM album came out 5 years after the dance. that's a small eternity.

[jbrownsjr]

And let's not forget what Christine's return did for FMac. Each crowd roared on those first few notes of YMLF. McVie's return was truly great moment for Fleetwood Mac's legacy and history. Vs. what the other person did for their legacy. :shrug:

[Macfan4life]

And let's not forget what Christine's return did for FMac. Each crowd roared on those first few notes of YMLF. McVie's return was truly great moment for Fleetwood Mac's legacy and history. Vs. what the other person did for their legacy. :shrug:
Successfully lip syncing Seven Wonders on American Horror Story

[jbrownsjr]

Successfully lip syncing Seven Wonders on American Horror Story

God, I forgot about that embarrassing scene. :sorry:

[Macfan4life]

God, I forgot about that embarrassing scene. :sorry:
Perhaps she should have played her tic tac Rhiannon on the piano instead.
When she's walking through front door its a flashback to Homer walking into the Indy arena in 1987 top hat and all.
Good luck girls!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4q2RG8zYU

[Moz]

And let's not forget what Christine's return did for FMac. Each crowd roared on those first few notes of YMLF. McVie's return was truly great moment for Fleetwood Mac's legacy and history. Vs. what the other person did for their legacy. :shrug:

Hanging out with Vanessa Carlton and Harry Styles and spending her days talking about Tom Petty and Prince instead of writing music (or even just dragging out some old demos) to record with the band, complaining that "nobody buys records" (it is extremely difficult to buy records that aren't being f*king recorded), and preventing the band from going out on a high note.

I can understand why Stevie has had such a problem with Lindsey over the years (I've been reading interviews from 1980-1982 and had to to cringe at a few things Chris, John, Mick, but mostly Lindsey said; imagine reading and hearing that from your own bandmate for 40 years). But would it really have been that difficult for her to put her differences aside, drop the stubbornness, and go into the studio in 2016? What's the point of being in a band if you refuse to make new material with them? If I was that unhappy I'd just leave.

[michelej1]

i think you hit the nail on the head - why Stevie was so eager to get rid of Lindsey. he didn't treat her as diva she became. he treated her as someone he grew up with and knew forever.

think about the line in the doc when he says "Karen is telling ME?"
As someone said in this thread, Stevie wanted even her staff to be treated above other FM members.

remember how Stevie always touted how she knew Lindsey before he was this big rock star? the same for him. but she wanted him to treat her as a huge diva she became, not as someone he knew his whole adult life. other than Lindsey, only her parents seemed to have been able to treat her like that, and by the time 2018 rolled around, both of them were gone. and Lindsey was now in her way, daring to not worship her.



She basically came out and said it. She said she wanted him to revel in her fame or else she would leave so fast the palm trees would hit him in the head. But she’s always been restrained horror. It was just the first time the restraints were gone. She is unchanged. It’s the rest of the band that ruined everything by giving into her. If they had held their ground, she would’ve backed down because she likes the FM touring money as much as anybody else. It wasn’t really going to be my way or the highway. It was going to be my way until you call my bluff. How I wish they had.They simply could’ve refused to fire Lindsey.

I’m just very depressed about how this all ended. And it just feels out of place that Christine died now, like it wasn’t supposed to happen. I guess I thought there would be more.

[michelej1]

When you think about it, even though Stevie has built this popular cultural image that's almost bigger than Fleetwood Mac, her Fleetwood Mac songs are still what she's mostly known for with the younger generation. Aside from her biggest hits like Edge of Seventeen, Stand Back, Stop Draggin' My Heart Around, but I would say even those songs are not as well known these days as Dreams, Rhiannon, or Landslide. And most of her solo albums in general are pretty much forgotten aside from the first two. Her career is kind of paradoxical in that way.

She has some amazing solo songs that never became big hits, but are far superior to those that received airplay like Talk To Me and I Can’t Wait. And they sounded wonderful live too. From OTR and HSML to Sorcerer.

But I have to say, her songs that gave me joy, with the nebulous lyrics that could be molded and shaped so they they seemed to relate directly to things in my personal life, just make me grimace now. Her personality has ruined her catalog for me.

[HomerMcvie]

Perhaps she should have played her tic tac Rhiannon on the piano instead.
When she's walking through front door its a flashback to Homer walking into the Indy arena in 1987 top hat and all.
Good luck girls!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4q2RG8zYU

Mike Pence was on my arm...

Macfan4life, no matter how many times you try to seduce me, I'M NOT MARRYING YOU. Get that through your head.

[cbBen]

What's HSML?

[Macfan4life]

Mike Pence was on my arm...

Macfan4life, no matter how many times you try to seduce me, I'M NOT MARRYING YOU. Get that through your head.
Did Mike clutch his Bible when Mick played himself?

[michelej1]

What's HSML?

How Still My Love. I’m just saying she had lots of solo songs that fans loved and were hot live. They were as good as Stand Back and Leather and Lace.

[HomerMcvie]

Did Mike clutch his Bible when Mick played himself?

He was clutching his dickey.

[Macfan4life]

He was clutching his dickey.
Then after the show you drove to a dark cornfield and showed him your sister honey while you played HAEWFY.

[jbrownsjr]

She basically came out and said it. She said she wanted him to revel in her fame or else she would leave so fast the palm trees would hit him in the head. But she’s always been restrained horror. It was just the first time the restraints were gone. She is unchanged. It’s the rest of the band that ruined everything by giving into her. If they had held their ground, she would’ve backed down because she likes the FM touring money as much as anybody else. It wasn’t really going to be my way or the highway. It was going to be my way until you call my bluff. How I wish they had.They simply could’ve refused to fire Lindsey.

I’m just very depressed about how this all ended. And it just feels out of place that Christine died now, like it wasn’t supposed to happen. I guess I thought there would be more.

It makes you wonder how many other times she has done this.

[cbBen]

She basically came out and said it. She said she wanted him to revel in her fame or else she would leave so fast the palm trees would hit him in the head. But she’s always been restrained horror. It was just the first time the restraints were gone. She is unchanged. It’s the rest of the band that ruined everything by giving into her. If they had held their ground, she would’ve backed down because she likes the FM touring money as much as anybody else. It wasn’t really going to be my way or the highway. It was going to be my way until you call my bluff. How I wish they had.They simply could’ve refused to fire Lindsey.

I’m just very depressed about how this all ended. And it just feels out of place that Christine died now, like it wasn’t supposed to happen. I guess I thought there would be more.

When and where did she come out and say she wanted him to revel in her fame? In the documentary? Elsewhere? If the former, at what point? Thanks.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Mw0LudFm4

[sue]

She basically came out and said it. She said she wanted him to revel in her fame or else she would leave so fast the palm trees would hit him in the head. But she’s always been restrained horror. It was just the first time the restraints were gone. She is unchanged. It’s the rest of the band that ruined everything by giving into her. If they had held their ground, she would’ve backed down because she likes the FM touring money as much as anybody else. It wasn’t really going to be my way or the highway. It was going to be my way until you call my bluff. How I wish they had.They simply could’ve refused to fire Lindsey.

I’m just very depressed about how this all ended. And it just feels out of place that Christine died now, like it wasn’t supposed to happen. I guess I thought there would be more.

Never thought of it from that angle and it’s right.
The others should have stood up to her, stood up for the moral rights of the band.
She would have backed down.
So, Chris, John and Mick sacked Lindsey.
Not Stevie !!

I think she has changed though..

[jbrownsjr]

Never thought of it from that angle and it’s right.
The others should have stood up to her, stood up for the moral rights of the band.
She would have backed down.
So, Chris, John and Mick sacked Lindsey.
Not Stevie !!

I think she has changed though..

I don't believe Christine had anything to do with it. I believe the decision was made already while she was away. And since mgmt knew this would be the last tour, it would be easy to get away with a swap of guitarist and singer.

They all could have balked and put their foot down, but imagine how difficult that would be when Mick has already agreed to it.
A power play was made and it forced their outstretched hands.

[HomerMcvie]

I don't believe Christine had anything to do with it. I believe the decision was made already while she was away. And since mgmt knew this would be the last tour, it would be easy to get away with a swap of guitarist and singer.

They all could have balked and put their foot down, but imagine how difficult that would be when Mick has already agreed to it.
A power play was made and it forced their outstretched hands.

And that's why Stevie is the worst thing that ever happened to Fleetwood mac! She's Satan!

[jbrownsjr]

And that's why Stevie is the worst thing that ever happened to Fleetwood mac! She's Satan!

I don't think she's the worst thing. I love a lot of her music and at one time had a ton of respect for her. I do agree the end was completely her power play using mgmt.

In the end, I've too realized that FMac is really the brits. Good or bad, better or worse, FM was the brits. And Christine was their musical and emotional heart.

[HomerMcvie]

I don't think she's the worst thing. I love a lot of her music and at one time had a ton of respect for her. I do agree the end was completely her power play using mgmt.

In the end, I've too realized that FMac is really the brits. Good or bad, better or worse, FM was the brits. And Christine was their musical and emotional heart.
Do you mean that you love her music from FOUR DECADES ago? Almost half a century ago?

Yeah, me too. :lol:

[HomerMcvie]

Then after the show you drove to a dark cornfield and showed him your sister honey while you played HAEWFY.

He stuck his hand inside my glove, and I was so afraid that I had to show him my green manalishi.

[jbrownsjr]

Do you mean that you love her music from FOUR DECADES ago? Almost half a century ago?

Yeah, me too. :lol:

Yes, and yes.

[michelej1]

Never thought of it from that angle and it’s right.
The others should have stood up to her, stood up for the moral rights of the b
She would have backed down.
So, Chris, John and Mick sacked Lindsey.
Not Stevie !!

I think she has changed though..

The only power she had over them is ticket sales and, like I said, she wanted that tour money too. So, it's not like she would have held out forever. If she had threatened and they held their ground, she would have come around in about 6 months.

And my thing is, if he's so impossible [and Lindsey is a nut, but he's their nut] then fire him when you still need him, if he's so awful. When you need him as a producer or as 2 of 3 lead singers, you somehow find a way to tolerate him. Don't use him up until he's done all you think he can for you and then fire him. I don't forgive them for that. And Christine can hear me now, so she knows I am angry about that -- but I still love her!

[michelej1]

When and where did she come out and say she wanted him to revel in her fame? In the documentary? Elsewhere? If the former, at what point? Thanks.: https://www.youtube.com/w
atch?v=v0Mw0LudFm4

She said she wanted him to enjoy what she does and enjoy her celebrity in 2008 or else she would walk away and let the palms hit him in the head, which I found amusing, because I don't know where it came from.

[UnwindedDreams]

She said she wanted him to enjoy what she does and enjoy her celebrity in 2008 or else she would walk away and let the palms hit him in the head, which I found amusing, because I don't know where it came from.
I remember that. She said that she isn't sure she wants to go back to Fleetwood Mac. She said she was getting great reviews for her solo shows. And that Lindsey should enjoy her celebrity. She also said he wasn't nice to her on the Say You Will Tour.

[jbrownsjr]

I remember that. She said that she isn't sure she wants to go back to Fleetwood Mac. She said she was getting great reviews for her solo shows. And that Lindsey should enjoy her celebrity. She also said he wasn't nice to her on the Say You Will Tour.

She and Mick's politics, I'm sure, had nothing. to do with that...

[HomerMcvie]

She and Mick's politics, I'm sure, had nothing. to do with that...

In Mick's defense, if Lindsey was the seat filler, he would have chosen Lindsey. See, Mick, he's a whore. That's just what he is.

[cbBen]

She said she wanted him to enjoy what she does and enjoy her celebrity in 2008 or else she would walk away and let the palms hit him in the head, which I found amusing, because I don't know where it came from.

found it: https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/23095988.html

"So if Lindsey Buckingham wants to be the Lindsey Buckingham that he was a long time ago—and be happy with me and enjoy what I do, and enjoy my celebrity and just appreciate the marvellous (sic.) gift of being in this elite band—then I will do it again. I will also walk away so fast that the palm tree tops will fall on his head."

Yeah, she's saying he shouldn't take her or take being in FM for granted. And that, in FM (the big machine that at this point by Lindsey's own acknowledgement was enabling his solo work), he's riding the coattails of her celebrity and should understand as much. I agree.

[michelej1]

Lindsey was undoubtedly benefiting from the success of Fleetwood Mac which is far from riding Stevie’s coattails since she was in no conceivable way more responsible for FM’s success than he was.

[michelej1]

In Mick's defense, if Lindsey was the seat filler, he would have chosen Lindsey. See, Mick, he's a whore. That's just what he is.

Mick has proven you right. He DID choose Lindsey over Stevie. Of course, Lindsey didn’t demand Stevie’s ouster from the band. He only demanded Tusk and gave it to him over everyone else is objections.

Mick knew that Stevie mesmerized some fans, but he didn’t believe that she alone could keep FM at the industry heights that it was at and he credited Lindsey with much of Rumours’ success. If Lindsey had only contributed his songs, he wouldn’t have mattered to Mick. But Mick thought that he enhanced everyone else’s work. So he cater to Lindsay. Because Mick needed records. Fast forward later when Mick did not need records and only needed someone to twirl on stage, then he has no more use for Lindsey.

[michelej1]

I remember that. She said that she isn't sure she wants to go back to Fleetwood Mac. She said she was getting great reviews for her solo shows. And that Lindsey should enjoy her celebrity. She also said he wasn't nice to her on the Say You Will Tour.

She always says Lindsey is “mean” to her but she never says how. The only time she has given examples are when she says he:

1. Left her record on the stair.

2. Called her Sammy Davis Jr.

3. Told her to wear an ugly sweater

The only thing she said he did to her on the SYW tour was tell her to wear a granny sweater. And we can assume that he argued with her about sequencing on the album when she was in Hawaii. And he got his way, despite her being a bigger celebrity. That apparently infuriated her. And on the sequencing score I think she was right because I don’t think that the opening songs on SYW did the album any favors.

The funny thing is, in that 2008 interview she claims Lindsey used to be nice to her a long time ago, but if you ever listen to any of her “long time ago” interviews Lindsey was never nice to her ever in his entire life, not way back then either.

Lindsey treats her like she treats him. She has scorned and mocked and complained about him for 40 years now. How dare he smirk back? How DARE he?

And you don’t need to be a fan of hers to understand how it cut like a knife when he told her that she shouldn’t take the mic off the stand. He is the devil.

[UnwindedDreams]

She always says Lindsey is “mean” to her but she never says how. The only time she has given examples are when she says he:

1. Left her record on the stair.

2. Called her Sammy Davis Jr.

3. Told her to wear an ugly sweater

The only thing she said he did to her on the SYW tour was tell her to wear a granny sweater. And we can assume that he argued with her about sequencing on the album when she was in Hawaii. And he got his way, despite her being a bigger celebrity. That apparently infuriated her. And on the sequencing score I think she was right because I don’t think that the opening songs on SYW did the album any favors.

The funny thing is, in that 2008 interview she claims Lindsey used to be nice to her a long time ago, but if you ever listen to any of her “long time ago” interviews Lindsey was never nice to her ever in his entire life, not way back then either.

Lindsey treats her like she treats him. She has scorned and mocked and complained about him for 40 years now. How dare he smirk back? How DARE he?

And you don’t need to be a fan of hers to understand how it cut like a knife when he told her that she shouldn’t take the mic off the stand. He is the devil.
I wish I knew where I could find Stevie on video talking about the cardigan. My recollection is that Lindsey said he thought the band should move forward with a new front. That the focus shouldn't be on the stage clothes and costumes but on the music. So Stevie decided to wear that sweater. She didn't sound angry when she gave the interview either.

What was pretty funny is that the Say You Will Tour had some of the best Stevie outfits: The red Sara kimono (putting the hair in the bun was amazing), the red and gold cape for Goodbye Baby, The Gypsy beige sparkly coat. Rhiannon wings, the coat for Go Your Own Way, the gloves, the scarves on the 2004 leg.

[UnwindedDreams]

found it: https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/23095988.html

"So if Lindsey Buckingham wants to be the Lindsey Buckingham that he was a long time ago—and be happy with me and enjoy what I do, and enjoy my celebrity and just appreciate the marvellous (sic.) gift of being in this elite band—then I will do it again. I will also walk away so fast that the palm tree tops will fall on his head."

Yeah, she's saying he shouldn't take her or take being in FM for granted. And that, in FM (the big machine that at this point by Lindsey's own acknowledgement was enabling his solo work), he's riding the coattails of her celebrity and should understand as much. I agree.
Stevie is like Don Corleone. You have to kiss the ring.

[michelej1]

I wish I knew where I could find Stevie on video talking about the cardigan. My recollection is that Lindsey said he thought the band should move forward with a new front. That the focus shouldn't be on the stage clothes and costumes but on the music. So Stevie decided to wear that sweater. She didn't sound angry when she gave the interview either.

What was pretty funny is that the Say You Will Tour had some of the best Stevie outfits: The red Sara kimono (putting the hair in the bun was amazing), the red and gold cape for Goodbye Baby, The Gypsy beige sparkly coat. Rhiannon wings, the coat for Go Your Own Way, the gloves, the scarves on the 2004 leg.

In that one interview, I don't remember what she said he said, but it was a criticism like tone it down. Don't be so glamorous or dramatic or something he supposedly said to her. I mean, Lindsey does say things to her and I don't think he does it 100% innocently. After all, even though he judges Mick's red, hand made shoes, do you think he ever tells Mick not to wear them? We all saw Lindsey suggest that she align her pronouns for Thrown Down. That hurt her so much that she had to resurrect the incident 10 years later for In Your Dreams. Most of us will never know pain like she endured.

BUT she wore that same granny sweater for other appearances outside of Fleetwood Mac, which suggests it wasn't all that humiliating for her. Of course her fans have all sorts of explanations for this. They suggest maybe because she was on tour she didn't have any other clothes with her when she made other appearances, as if she flies around the world with nothing more than Karen's back pack to store her meager belongings in.

[jbrownsjr]

Lyrics from Fall From Grace

Maybe I am calmer now
Maybe things are fine
Maybe I made the whole thing up
Maybe it isn't a lie
Maybe the reasons I say these things
Is to bring you back alive
Ooh, maybe I fought this long and this hard just to make sure you survive! Yeah
Just to make sure you survive

[cbBen]

She always says Lindsey is “mean” to her but she never says how.

The funny thing is, in that 2008 interview she claims Lindsey used to be nice to her a long time ago, but if you ever listen to any of her “long time ago” interviews Lindsey was never nice to her ever in his entire life, not way back then either.

As if on purpose (there are plenty of musicians in the world), he continually steals away her band members:

1. Brett
2. Taku
3. Jimmy
? others I'm forgetting

It's as though every time he needs a band member, he just looks at Stevie's band and takes his pick.

As for "when he was nice to me," she may be referring to 1996-97.

[UnwindedDreams]

As if on purpose (there are plenty of musicians in the world), he continually steals away her band members:

1. Brett
2. Taku
3. Jimmy
? others I'm forgetting

It's as though every time he needs a band member, he just looks at Stevie's band and takes his pick.

As for "when he was nice to me," she may be referring to 1996-97.
You know that he stole Jimmy?
Because he didn't. Stevie fired him.

[cbBen]

She fired him before Lindsey hired him? What's the chronology?

Because he was the longtime drummer in her band and, next thing you know, he's touring with Lindsey/Christine and then Lindsey solo instead of going out with Stevie on the 24-Karat Gold or Billy Joel tours, just as Brett (with the exception of one tour c. 2011) and Taku were in her band and then, next thing you know, in Lindsey's.

[jbrownsjr]

As for "when he was nice to me," she may be referring to 1996-97.

And a tad bit in 1998

[UnwindedDreams]

She fired him before Lindsey hired him? What's the chronology?

Because he was the longtime drummer in her band and, next thing you know, he's touring with Lindsey/Christine and then Lindsey solo instead of going out with Stevie on the 24-Karat Gold or Billy Joel tours, just as Brett (with the exception of one tour c. 2011) and Taku were in her band and then, next thing you know, in Lindsey's.
There was talk that Jimmy wasn't nice to Stevie fans. He wasn't nice when I met him in Atlantic City in 2008.

However, Jimmy chose to tour with The Chicks in 2016 instead of Stevie. And that tour went into spring of 2017 I believe. Stevie liked Drew Hester and pledged the job to Drew because she loved how he played her songs. So Jimmy became available since Stevie didn't call him back so Lindsey and Christine got him. I have a feeling it was through Brett. He and Jimmy were close.

[UnwindedDreams]

She fired him before Lindsey hired him? What's the chronology?

Because he was the longtime drummer in her band and, next thing you know, he's touring with Lindsey/Christine and then Lindsey solo instead of going out with Stevie on the 24-Karat Gold or Billy Joel tours, just as Brett (with the exception of one tour c. 2011) and Taku were in her band and then, next thing you know, in Lindsey's.

Also Stevie dropped her percussionists after 2011. Even this year she didn't have percussion.

[cbBen]

Jimmy chose to tour with The Chicks in 2016 instead of Stevie. And that tour went into spring of 2017 I believe. Stevie liked Drew Hester and pledged the job to Drew because she loved how he played her songs. So Jimmy became available since Stevie didn't call him back so Lindsey and Christine got him. I have a feeling it was through Brett. He and Jimmy were close.

Thanks......

[michelej1]

As if on purpose (there are plenty of musicians in the world), he continually steals away her band members:

1. Brett
2. Taku
3. Jimmy
? others I'm forgetting

It's as though every time he needs a band member, he just looks at Stevie's band and takes his pick.

As for "when he was nice to me," she may be referring to 1996-97.


Just be thankful he didn’t take Waddy then. You’re welcome.

[UnwindedDreams]

Thanks......
Drew did an interview last year on YouTube where he said he had nothing to do with the switch or something like that. Like he was being clear it was between Stevie(and or Waddy) and Jimmy. Stevie said to Drew "You're not going anywhere"

I actually liked Jimmy's drumming best. I think Drew isn't as grooving. I feel like I hear more cymbal from him whereas Jimmy was really proving a foot stomping beat.

[michelej1]

You know that he stole Jimmy?
Because he didn't. Stevie fired him.

And why would they leave Stevie for Lindsey. He loses money on tours. She is supposedly the biggest star the world has ever seen and magnanimous, kind and loving.:lol:. Surely she pays them well. He can’t outspend her. Why would they leave her to go play small clubs with Lindsey? He may have tried to lure them away like the Pied Piper, to ruin her solo career because he’s SO jealous. But how exactly did he accomplish it?

[cbBen]

Lindsey probably does pay more. He prioritizes making good music over turning a profit. Doesn't change the fact that in a world of innumerable musicians, he seems to treat Stevie's band as his farm team.

That said, one should note that he did play with Brett and with Taku in FM (and on his Soundstage appearance) before the two of them joined Stevie's band.

Still, in 2006-07 he straight up took them from Stevie's band. Of course she says their replacements are fantastic. That's just P.R.

[michelej1]

Lindsey probably does pay more. He prioritizes making good music over turning a profit. Doesn't change the fact that in a world of innumerable musicians, he seems to treat Stevie's band as his farm team.

That said, one should note that he did play with Brett and with Taku in FM (and on his Soundstage appearance) before the two of them joined Stevie's band.

Still, in 2006-07 he straight up took them from Stevie's band. Of course she says their replacements are fantastic. That's just P.R.

I don't think Lindsey has been poaching Stevie's musicians. Heck, one night in a dark alley, I think I saw Stevie trying to force Carlos on Lindsey. Lindsey ran away, because he wanted no part of it.

But even if he had been going headhunting in Stevie's band, armed with his trusty Rick Turner, I will again play the Waddy card. Waddy was Lindsey's musical cohort and Stevie took him. They're even, for all time.

[cbBen]

Lindsey is first and foremost a lead guitarist, and would never have another lead player like Waddy in his band. Even with his large band of 1992-93, when others played lead they played parts Lindsey taught them note for note. And Lindsey was the only star. No big names like Waddy Wachtel.

Plus, Stevie "took" Waddy in 1981, well after he quit playing with Buckingham-Nicks, which he did on his own accord, not because Stevie "took" him for herself.

[UnwindedDreams]

Because he was the longtime drummer in her band and, next thing you know, he's touring with Lindsey/Christine and then Lindsey solo instead of going out with Stevie on the 24-Karat Gold or Billy Joel tours, just as Brett (with the exception of one tour c. 2011) and Taku were in her band and then, next thing you know, in Lindsey's.
Taku first played with Lindsey solo in 2003 in Chicago before he (Taku) played solo with Stevie. Also, Taku didn't play with Lindsey while Stevie was on tour. When Taku did the Under The Skin Tour, Stevie wasn't on tour. Taku went on to Bette Midler.

[michelej1]

Lindsey is first and foremost a lead guitarist, and would never have another lead player like Waddy in his band. Even with his large band of 1992-93, when others played lead they played parts Lindsey taught them note for note. And Lindsey was the only star. No big names like Waddy Wachtel.

Plus, Stevie "took" Waddy in 1981, well after he quit playing with Buckingham-Nicks, which he did on his own accord, not because Stevie "took" him for herself.

And when Lindsey made appearances on Tom Petty and Don Henley songs, I guess he was doing that to take them away from her, in a sense.

The truth is, it's just a small world. You see the same musicians and crew around all of the time and make connections.

[jbrownsjr]

And when Lindsey made appearances on Tom Petty and Don Henley songs, I guess he was doing that to take them away from her, in a sense.

The truth is, it's just a small world. You see the same musicians and crew around all of the time and make connections.

Christine stole George Hawkins, Billy and Todd!:eek:

[Macfan4life]

Christine stole George Hawkins, Billy and Todd!:eek:
Stevie was a ghost writer for Love Will Show Us How but passed it to Chris because it didn't fit on RAL. She was one of the LOVE dancers in the video too.

[michelej1]

Christine stole George Hawkins, Billy and Todd!:eek:

Lindsey had Ray date Sharon Celani for the sole purpose of infiltrating Stevie’s band and undermining her success. Michele

[cbBen]

Taku didn't play with Lindsey while Stevie was on tour. When Taku did the Under The Skin Tour, Stevie wasn't on tour. Taku went on to Bette Midler.

Ah, you're right. I guess Brett is the only one and, given he didn't have some long-term contract, he's free to play with whoever he wants; just as Stevie is free to discontinue using someone and hire someone else.

Okay, I withdraw my accusation.

[jbrownsjr]

Stevie was a ghost writer for Love Will Show Us How but passed it to Chris because it didn't fit on RAL. She was one of the LOVE dancers in the video too.

Stevie originally auditioned for the part of Mr. LeGrand.

[Macfan4life]

Stevie originally auditioned for the part of Mr. LeGrand.
true but she wanted to remain anonymous. Stevie asked Brad Jeffries to choreograph the Love Dancers. You cant see their faces so its hard to determine which one is Stevie, Brad, Sharon and Lori.
The original script did not involve a UFO either. A giant cow bell was to drop from the stage and surround Chris and her piano. Chris was supposed to knock 3 times and say Rock A Little to escape. The final script was panned as being too cheezy of a promotion especially since RAL was still a year away from release. They eventually settled on "How will you feel 20 years from now." That too was scrapped and Chris stood her ground and the UFO came back.

[UnwindedDreams]

Ah, you're right. I guess Brett is the only one and, given he didn't have some long-term contract, he's free to play with whoever he wants; just as Stevie is free to discontinue using someone and hire someone else.
Yes, Brett first played with Stevie after The Dance on Enchanted Tour. But Mick is the one who brought Brett into FM.
In 2006, Stevie said to Brett that he had to choose which band he was going to be in and he chose Lindsey's. It was nice that he came back for her In Your Dreams Tour so he got to play new songs with Stevie again like he did on TISL Tour.

Of course Neale Heywood is Lindsey's guy and Lindsey brought him into FM for The Dance. The only time Stevie worked with Neale Heywood solo was when she used his track for New Orleans.

[cbBen]

The Enchanted tour is fantastic. Maybe her best solo tour since the early '80s. I have the pro-shot Woodstock '98 video from the webcast. It is fantastic.

1998 was when I first became a FM fan. I considered going to see her, but it was pricey relative to other shows at the time and I was a brand new fan (and even then of FM, not of Stevie solo).

I would see her later in 2005 and, with TP & The Heartbreakers, in 2006.

[jbrownsjr]

Lindsey had Ray date Sharon Celani for the sole purpose of infiltrating Stevie’s band and undermining her success. Michele

He had Neale date Waddy so they could universally pick off anyone at anytime.

[SteveMacD]

Lindsey was undoubtedly benefiting from the success of Fleetwood Mac which is far from riding Stevie’s coattails since she was in no conceivable way more responsible for FM’s success than he was.

Sure. Fleetwood Mac would have TOTALLY still been an arena band if they’d fired Stevie and brought back Bekka Bramlett in 2008.

[cbBen]

Sure. Fleetwood Mac would have TOTALLY still been an arena band if they’d fired Stevie and brought back Bekka Bramlett in 2008.

Yes, that is the litmus test: subtract the member in question and ask what happens to the band's commercial fortunes.

In the 2000's the prospect of Lindsey producing a FM album that would sell in the many millions was no longer present and, financially, Stevie's value to the band dwarfed his (returning to the subject of the thread, in the documentary Stevie–in contradistinction to the others–seems to understand the true prospects for how Say You Will will sell). This dynamic was even more in evidence in 2018 after her hugely successful 24 Karat Gold tour.

The 2018-19 incarnation of the band played large venues. Had they done the honorable thing and told Stevie rather than Lindsey to take a hike if she refused to share the stage with him, they would have either played smaller ones or half-empty ones.

Though to be fair, they would not have replaced Stevie with Bekka. They would have either soldiered on without her or replaced her with a big name such as Bonnie Raitt.

[SteveMacD]

Though to be fair, they would not have replaced Stevie with Bekka. They would have either soldiered on without her or replaced her with a big name such as Bonnie Raitt.

By contrast, Fleetwood Mac would have been fine in 2008 with Billy and Rick back so long as Stevie was in the band.

[jbrownsjr]

Yes, that is the litmus test: subtract the member in question and ask what happens to the band's commercial fortunes.

In the 2000's the prospect of Lindsey producing a FM album that would sell in the many millions was no longer present and, financially, Stevie's value to the band dwarfed his (returning to the subject of the thread, in the documentary Stevie–in contradistinction to the others–seems to understand the true prospects for how Say You Will stands to sell). This dynamic was even more in evidence in 2018 after her hugely successful 24 Karat Gold tour.

The 2018-19 incarnation of the band played large venues. Had they done the honorable thing and told Stevie rather than Lindsey to take a hike if she refused to share the stage with him, they would have either played smaller ones or half-empty ones.

Though to be fair, they would not have replaced Stevie with Bekka. They would have either soldiered on without her or replaced her with a big name such as Bonnie Raitt.

Absolutely! They had very limited options.


1. Continue as a 4 piece and play small venues like Winwood. He occasionally would team up with Steely Dan and then it's Hollywood Bowl type arena. Fleetwood Mac and another big name could put them in an arena w/o Stevie.

2. Replace her with big name. Bekka would not be an option. Completely agree.

The risk involved financially by choosing Lindsey over Stevie was insurmountable. There's no way someone is not going to choose a sure thing over a risky attempt to make the band a viable option w/o Stevie. I don't even blame Mick because his hands were tied.

[anusha]

Totally agree. By the time Stevie gave them her ultimatum — and that’s what it was no matter how she wants to dress it up — the band had to pick her if they wanted to play stadium shows. And at that point, in their 70s, on what was likely going to be their last stadium tour, they weren’t going to stand on principle.

What was sad about it is how shady they were about it in public. That’s the part that I mostly hold against Stevie. In all honestly, both Stevie AND Lindsey sound like pretty awful people, at least when it comes to each other and likely with other people too. I wouldn’t have blamed Stevie if she has owned it and said, “you know, I’ve tried to make it work with Lindsey for 40 years as colleagues and it’s been a real challenge because we are very different people and have a hard time seeing eye to eye. I’m at a point in my life where I don’t want to live with that kind of conflict and tension, and my band mates support my decision. We will always be thankful to Lindsey for all the beautiful music we made together and wish him well in the future.”

Ultimately though, Stevie didn’t want to be blamed for Lindsey leaving so they blamed him, and that is what made this even worse. And then his press after the lawsuit made it clear why he and Stevie shouldn’t be in the same continent much less the same band. Sheesh.

In some ways, without Christine, maybe this means we will be spared any talk of a totally disingenuous reunion now. Because I can’t imagine anyone falling for it. Not at today’s ticket prices.

But the issue with picking Stevie over Lindsey was marketability which many would say is different than value. However, if you’re an oldies band doing an oldies set list, marketability is really all that matters anyway.

[michelej1]

I blame them because none of them needed the money, except for Mick and because at least 2 out of the 3 of them (Mick, John and Christine) had to have the sense to know that Stevie's ultimatum wouldn't last if they refused to back down. Not only does Stevie want tour money. She wants the attention that Fleetwood Mac brings. She wants to play stadiums. She wants the press. She wants the legacy.

She didn't just want to go back out there dodging balls thrown by Rod Stewart fans. Yep, she has the most solo fans, but they don't give her everything she needs.

How long did any of them really think she'd refuse to tour, if Lindsey was part of it? And, except for Mick, if she did continue to refuse, what the heck do they care? John didn't seem happy touring any longer and Christine seemed like she wanted to keep her promise never to "break the chain" again, but she also would have liked to be home with her dogs.

That tour probably cost both John and Christine time off of their lives. I could never have guessed that Christine was in danger, but John looked taxed. It took a physical toll on him. If Lindsey had been wth them, I don't really say the same thing about him, because he is a ham. He is stimulated on stage. He might die there, during his ISA theatrics, but I don't think he'd care. If he'd toured, I don't think he'd have had the heart attack, but if he had, it would have been a lot less tragic turn of events. I can't get over the betrayal.

The argument that they HAD to do it if they wanted to tour doesn't really persuade me. They could have had the tour and their backbones, too.

[bwboy]

I blame them because none of them needed the money, except for Mick and because at least 2 out of the 3 of them (Mick, John and Christine) had to have the sense to know that Stevie's ultimatum wouldn't last if they refused to back down. Not only does Stevie want tour money. She wants the attention that Fleetwood Mac brings. She wants to play stadiums. She wants the press. She wants the legacy.

How long did any of them really think she'd refuse to tour, if Lindsey was part of it?

That tour probably cost both John and Christine time off of their lives. I could never have guessed that Christine was in danger, but John looked taxed. It took a physical toll on him. If Lindsey had been wth them, I don't really say the same thing about him, because he is a ham. He is stimulated on stage. He might die there, during his ISA theatrics, but I don't think he'd care. If he'd toured, I don't think he'd have had the heart attack, but if he had, it would have been a lot less tragic turn of events. I can't get over the betrayal.

I agree with you in thinking that if Christine, Mick, and John had held out, then Stevie would have given in and done the tour with Lindsey. No way to know for sure, of course.

I differ with you about the whole health thing of the band members, though. It’s a tricky issue because we don’t know all the facts and there’s a ton of speculation, but it seems almost a contradiction to say that the tour could have cost both John and Christine time off their lives, but then say if Lindsey had toured, you don’t think he would have had the heart attack. Stress is stress to the human body. That’s why people can have a heart attack riding a roller coaster- the body can’t classify ‘good or fun’ stress from ‘bad stress.’ Or why big football players with a lot of muscle mass have heart attacks.

[cbBen]

As I say above or elsewhere, before a big tour such as FM insurance requires that every band member go through an extensive medical checkup. With the Rolling Stones, this mandated checkup found Mick Jagger's heart issue and he was able to address it with a valve replacement rather than a more invasive surgery such as a bypass.

Accordingly, had Lindsey been in the band the checkup he would have had to undergo may well have turned up his heart issue and he would have been able to address it – though he would not have been able to tour, and perhaps the band would have then said, "Tour is booked, can't cancel, Neil and Mike will fill in, but Lindsey is still a band member; he's just on bed rest" and Stevie would have gotten her wish without having to have Lindsey fired as such.

[bwboy]

I can respect and empathize with Stevie for not wanting a toxic work environment and not being able to put up with Lindsey anymore, but at that point, she had done it for so many years, she could have stuck it out for one more tour with him.

A couple of other folks have said the same thing, questioning why Stevie couldn’t have put up with a few more years with Lindsey. And it would have been years, because of the time it takes them to record an album, plus the tour.

At my job, if I was completely done with working with someone, I don’t think I would stick it out 2-3 more years. As fans, we want FM to make new music, but as an objective guy, I get why she didn’t want to stick it out anymore. I’m not saying she’s right or wrong, I’m just saying she clearly reached her threshold for whatever reason when it came to Lindsey and she was done. And she has the right to say she’s done. Just like he did in 1987.

[bwboy]

As I say above or elsewhere, before a big tour such as FM insurance requires that every band member go through an extensive medical checkup. With the Rolling Stones, this mandated checkup found Mick Jagger's heart issue and he was able to address it with a valve replacement rather than a much more invasive surgery such as a bypass.

Accordingly, had Lindsey been in the band the checkup he would have had to undergo would have likely turned up his heart issue and he would have been able to address it – though he would not have been able to tour, and perhaps the band would have then said, "Tour is booked, can't cancel, we'll have Neil and Mike to fill in, but Lindsey is still a band member; he's just on bed rest" and Stevie would have gotten her wish without having to have Lindsey fired as such.

That’s entirely possible, but it’s not 100% certain. I’m not a doctor and I don’t know how similar Mick Jagger’s situation was to Lindsey’s. Plus all the other factors, such as age. And if I can be snarky for a minute, a physical wouldn’t have helped anyway because some folks feel that Lindsey only had the heart attack because he was fired from FM- if a broken heart led to his heart attack, then a physical wouldn’t have helped :rolleyes: or so they say.

[SteveMacD]

LOL, look at all of Lindsey’s personal physicians on here.

All of whom seem to forget the biggest predictor of heart disease: Family history.

I mean, it’s not like Morris or Greg Buckingham didn’t die young suddenly because of heart attacks. I guess Stevie invented a super secret time machine to take them out, too.

[David]

And why would they leave Stevie for Lindsey?

All I can think of is that, if you're a musician, it's a lot more fun to play LOVE RUNS DEEPER than DREAMS week after week.

[UnwindedDreams]

At my job, if I was completely done with working with someone, I don’t think I would stick it out 2-3 more years. As fans, we want FM to make new music, but as an objective guy, I get why she didn’t want to stick it out anymore. I’m not saying she’s right or wrong, I’m just saying she clearly reached her threshold for whatever reason when it came to Lindsey and she was done. And she has the right to say she’s done. Just like he did in 1987.
Well you don't want FM to make music, you want to hear album tracks live:laugh::xoxo:

I wonder if Mick or John ever said to Lindsey "If you keep this(whatever this is) up, you're out of here"

[michelej1]

I agree with you in thinking that if Christine, Mick, and John had held out, then Stevie would have given in and done the tour with Lindsey. No way to know for sure, of course.

I differ with you about the whole health thing of the band members, though. It’s a tricky issue because we don’t know all the facts and there’s a ton of speculation, but it seems almost a contradiction to say that the tour could have cost both John and Christine time off their lives, but then say if Lindsey had toured, you don’t think he would have had the heart attack. Stress is stress to the human body. That’s why people can have a heart attack riding a roller coaster- the body can’t classify ‘good or fun’ stress from ‘bad stress.’ Or why big football players with a lot of muscle mass have heart attacks.

The body can certainly differentiate between grief and exhilaration, between bad news and good. There’s a different kind of stress (joy excitement v. Worry and anxiety and depression) associated with giving birth and losing a child. The body does not react the same way to each situation.

And yes the comment about insurance is accurate. The insurance check for NBA play is how Magic Johnson discovered he was HIV positive all those years ago, for example.

[michelej1]

Well you don't want FM to make music, you want to hear album tracks live:laugh::xoxo:

I wonder if Mick or John ever said to Lindsey "If you keep this(whatever this is) up, you're out of here"

Maybe they said if you don’t play with a pic, you are out of here. That traumatized him to the point he was still talking about it 30 years later, when he obviously ended up doing what he wanted.

[bwboy]

Well you don't want FM to make music, you want to hear album tracks live:laugh::xoxo:

I wonder if Mick or John ever said to Lindsey "If you keep this(whatever this is) up, you're out of here"

It’s true, I would rather hear deep tracks live than new music! :nod: I just haven’t cared for anything new they’ve done for a long, long time now, solo or together. On the Dance, I loved Silver Springs, the Farmer’s Daughter, and even Oh Daddy, a song I usually don’t care for, and hated Sweet Girl and Temporary One. I only like 6 songs on Say You Will and 2 songs on the EP.

I’m in the minority about preferring deep tracks to new songs, though. I can see why other people would prefer new music, too.

[cbBen]

Maybe they said if you don’t play with a pic, you are out of here. That traumatized him to the point he was still talking about it 30 years later, when he obviously ended up doing what he wanted.

It didn't traumatize him. A now-deceased friend of mine was a record producer. He told me one terrible change in the music industry is that at a certain point everything had to have a story. You couldn't just release an album and have the pitch be "This is great music."

These musicians do interviews and are more or less required to have stories to tell. It's a downside of the biz. Frankly, Lindsey isn't particularly good at this part of the job. He prefers making music.

But as stories go, I'd say it is interesting that Mick hired–as Waddy Wachtel put it–the greatest fingerstyle guitarist in the history of rock, and asked him to play with a pick. It's at least ironic.

Problem is, while a third party like Waddy can say why asking him to play with a pick was ironic (because Lindsey is a singularly good fingerstyle guitarist), Lindsey can't really explain that part himself because it would sound too self-aggrandizing. So when Lindsey talks about it he really tells only half the story and the irony and interest value isn't made clear.

It would be better if they didn't have to come up with any stories and could just say "We make great music." But unfortunately that's just not how it works.

[SteveMacD]

But as stories go, I'd say it is interesting that Mick hired–as Waddy Wachtel put it–the greatest fingerstyle guitarist in the history of rock, and asked him to play with a pick. It's at least ironic.

Given Fleetwood Mac's body of work up until the end of 1974, Waddy would have been the more obvious choice for Fleetwood Mac. He played Les Pauls, he used a pick, and he was a more traditional lead guitarist. I think he would have gotten the equation that he was joining an established band a little more than Lindsey did.

Not that it would have been better.

[Karlie]

Given Fleetwood Mac's body of work up until the end of 1974, Waddy would have been the more obvious choice for Fleetwood Mac. He played Les Pauls, he used a pick, and he was a more traditional lead guitarist. I think he would have gotten the equation that he was joining an established band a little more than Lindsey did.

Not that it would have been better.

They would have also had to look for another singer/songwriter, though. Waddy’s not exactly lead vocalist material...

[SteveMacD]

They would have also had to look for another singer/songwriter, though. Waddy’s not exactly lead vocalist material...

He would have been replacing Bob Welch, though.

Here’s his 45 he recorded at Sound City around the time Buckingham Nicks were recording. They supposedly sing on “You’re the One” and Jim Keltner was on drums (the mix is similar to “Don’t Let Me Down Again”). It was even on Anthem.

You’re The One
https://youtu.be/fjxpn7gWAek

Love You Should Save
https://youtu.be/FryhDDB832c

[michelej1]

It didn't traumatize him. A now-deceased friend of mine was a record producer. He told me one terrible change in the music industry is that at a certain point everything had to have a story. You couldn't just release an album and have the pitch be "This is great music."


Yes, I am quite aware that it did not traumatize Lindsey. I also don’t think he said it because he needed a story to tell. He said it long after it happened. It’s not some thing he was saying in interviews in the 70s. He said that after 2000. He didn’t say it to have a story to tell. The media never gets tired of their interpersonal relationships and that story is always available to them if he wanted to just blab for the sake of publicity. The pick is a different matter. He said it because it was a memory that he wanted to tell.

[ricohv]

He would have been replacing Bob Welch, though.

Here’s his 45 he recorded at Sound City around the time Buckingham Nicks were recording. They supposedly sing on “You’re the One” and Jim Keltner was on drums (the mix is similar to “Don’t Let Me Down Again”). It was even on Anthem.

You’re The One
https://youtu.be/fjxpn7gWAek

Love You Should Save
https://youtu.be/FryhDDB832c

Interesting! I never knew about this. Thank you!

[BigAl84]

I don't think Stevie ever had a years long plan to axe Lindsey etc. Not by a long shot. In fact, I think the fallout with Lindsey only became as big as it did because she had the right people around her stoking the fire, instead of being a reasonable voice (i.e her mother, Tom Petty etc)

We all know there was friction about the music they would walk out on stage to for Music Cares and then the on stage smirk. I think her anger combined with some sort of resentment about the Buckingham McVie project caused her to melt down. Irving and all the power players following the cash rallied around her. I'm sure Irving offered her plenty of reassurance of not needing Lindsey (Hey, we just did this with the Eagles!) She was encouraged to exercise her options and she pounced on the opportunity instead of taking a step back to reevaluate.

If she was that pissed about Music Cares, she's watched all of the footage from every angle. She eventually realized it was nearly the entire band joking around behind her, not just Lindsey. Instead of giving the finger to the whole band, she threw Lindsey under the bus because that would be easier to justify. Given their history, it's an easy out. Although, reading what I just wrote...I don't even feel confident she took the time to review the Music Cares footage before making any kind of decision.

So no, I do't think she had a long term plan. She's way too lazy to do that. All she needed was a few people to whisper what she wanted to hear/believe to make one of the biggest fumbles of the last half of her career.

[jbrownsjr]

I don't think Stevie ever had a years long plan to axe Lindsey etc. Not by a long shot. In fact, I think the fallout with Lindsey only became as big as it did because she had the right people around her stoking the fire, instead of being a reasonable voice (i.e her mother, Tom Petty etc)

We all know there was friction about the music they would walk out on stage to for Music Cares and then the on stage smirk. I think her anger combined with some sort of resentment about the Buckingham McVie project caused her to melt down. Irving and all the power players following the cash rallied around her. I'm sure Irving offered her plenty of reassurance of not needing Lindsey (Hey, we just did this with the Eagles!) She was encouraged to exercise her options and she pounced on the opportunity instead of taking a step back to reevaluate.

If she was that pissed about Music Cares, she's watched all of the footage from every angle. She eventually realized it was nearly the entire band joking around behind her, not just Lindsey. Instead of giving the finger to the whole band, she threw Lindsey under the bus because that would be easier to justify. Given their history, it's an easy out. Although, reading what I just wrote...I don't even feel confident she took the time to review the Music Cares footage before making any kind of decision.

So no, I do't think she had a long term plan. She's way too lazy to do that. All she needed was a few people to whisper what she wanted to hear/believe to make one of the biggest fumbles of the last half of her career.


Agree it was abrupt, too. But, I think things were indeed simmering since 1998.

[bwboy]

The body can certainly differentiate between grief and exhilaration, between bad news and good. There’s a different kind of stress (joy excitement v. Worry and anxiety and depression) associated with giving birth and losing a child. The body does not react the same way to each situation.

To quote Dave Mason, we just disagree :lol:

I think the example of giving birth is too far from a heart attack to compare the two, even as a hypothetical example.

[UnwindedDreams]

I don't think Stevie ever had a years long plan to axe Lindsey etc. Not by a long shot. In fact, I think the fallout with Lindsey only became as big as it did because she had the right people around her stoking the fire, instead of being a reasonable voice (i.e her mother, Tom Petty etc)

We all know there was friction about the music they would walk out on stage to for Music Cares and then the on stage smirk. I think her anger combined with some sort of resentment about the Buckingham McVie project caused her to melt down. Irving and all the power players following the cash rallied around her. I'm sure Irving offered her plenty of reassurance of not needing Lindsey (Hey, we just did this with the Eagles!) She was encouraged to exercise her options and she pounced on the opportunity instead of taking a step back to reevaluate.

If she was that pissed about Music Cares, she's watched all of the footage from every angle. She eventually realized it was nearly the entire band joking around behind her, not just Lindsey. Instead of giving the finger to the whole band, she threw Lindsey under the bus because that would be easier to justify. Given their history, it's an easy out. Although, reading what I just wrote...I don't even feel confident she took the time to review the Music Cares footage before making any kind of decision.

So no, I do't think she had a long term plan. She's way too lazy to do that. All she needed was a few people to whisper what she wanted to hear/believe to make one of the biggest fumbles of the last half of her career.
On MusiCares, Lindsey didn't want there to be any walk out music, he wanted The Chain to be their entrance. If you watch the video on Youtube, there was a curtain that opened with FM behind it. They played Rhiannon right before Harry Styles introduced them.

It's weird that she had Lindsey at her AHI Benefits in 2000 and 2001, called him her partner in crime, held hands with him on stage for 15 years, said his name in most interviews, and one day he became Rosemary's Baby. But when she took a swipe a LBCM in her 2017 RollingStone interview, I should have known that's what was up.

[tothegypsy]

The only power she had over them is ticket sales and, like I said, she wanted that tour money too. So, it's not like she would have held out forever. If she had threatened and they held their ground, she would have come around in about 6 months.

I think the difference in the star power of Fleetwood Mac and Steve Nicks solo has narrowed over time. When she added a well-known opener like The Pretenders, she was playing some of the same venues that Fleetwood Mac played.

[SteveMacD]

There was no wild long-standing conspiracy, quit being ridiculous. Stevie was talking about a Buckingham Nicks reunion tour in 2013. Things began fracturing in January, 2014, with Christine returning and Stevie’s AHS episode and came to a head in late 2017. Stevie and Lindsey suddenly needed each other increasingly less to achieve their professional goals. Given their acrimonious relationship, it was almost inevitable that there would be some parting of ways.

Christine’s return meant Lindsey no longer had to walk on eggshells around Stevie. He had a musical partner enthusiastic about working with him. Christine, the buffer, the Stevie whisperer, was back. Certainly she could get Stevie back in the studio.

However, just as Christine was rejoining Fleetwood Mac, Stevie’s episode of American Horror Story aired in mid-January and her popularity started skyrocketing again. That’s when she recorded the vault songs. She didn’t have new songs ready, so she could revisit songs that were discarded and subsequently leaked. She had something to capitalize on with the newfound audience.

This also gave Stevie zero incentive to make a Fleetwood Mac album, especially with Christine back. Why possibly be seen as the inferior songwriter when she was the superior concert attraction? Why do anything to jeopardize her sudden rise in prominence? She remembered 1986-97. And, why do something you don’t enjoy doing?

I doubt she gave a thought to LBCM. She wasn’t jealous. Maybe slightly annoyed that it came up in interviews, but not jealous. She was raking in a lot of money on her huge tour and her name was carrying significantly more weight than Lindsey and Christine as a duo. Her vision of revisiting older material and dusting off songs that haven’t been played in a long time was providing to be more viable than new music. She was vindicated.

Which brings us to 2017. Mick released an expensive picture book of Fleetwood Mac’s 1967-74 years, Stevie and Mick had their listening party of Fleetwood Mac songs from other eras and decided the band was going to play some of those songs (which was obviously going to go over like a lead balloon with Lindsey, but that was Stevie’s vision for the tour), the band was preparing for a 50th career retrospective, Lindsey had the disastrous interview (which lost him Irving), Lindsey lost his ***** and became moody at Classic East during GYOW, Tom Petty died (Mike Campbell was suddenly available), and tour negotiations were very tense.

Lindsey signed a solo deal with Atlantic, had a solo retrospective coming out, and had a new solo album ready to go, so he wanted to focus on that. Initially, he wanted a slight delay and then a tour within a tour. Irving and the band kept saying no and Lindsey kept refusing to sign off on the tour. Whatever happened at MusiCares seems to have been more of the last straw. All of the various issues suddenly snowballed and Stevie decided she couldn’t work with him anymore.

It was a sad but predictable ending to the most dysfunctional band ever.

[cbBen]

There was no wild long-standing conspiracy, quit being ridiculous. Stevie was talking about a Buckingham Nicks reunion tour in 2013. Things began fracturing in January, 2014, with Christine returning and Stevie’s AHS episode and came to a head in late 2017. Stevie and Lindsey suddenly needed each other increasingly less to achieve their professional goals. Given their acrimonious relationship, it was almost inevitable that there would be some parting of ways.

Christine’s return meant Lindsey no longer had to walk on eggshells around Stevie. He had a musical partner enthusiastic about working with him. Christine, the buffer, the Stevie whisperer, was back. Certainly she could get Stevie back in the studio.

However, just as Christine was rejoining Fleetwood Mac, Stevie’s episode of American Horror Story aired in mid-January and her popularity started skyrocketing again. That’s when she recorded the vault songs. She didn’t have new songs ready, so she could revisit songs that were discarded and subsequently leaked. She had something to capitalize on with the newfound audience.

This also gave Stevie zero incentive to make a Fleetwood Mac album, especially with Christine back. Why possibly be seen as the inferior songwriter when she was the superior concert attraction? Why do anything to jeopardize her sudden rise in prominence? She remembered 1986-97. And, why do something you don’t enjoy doing?

I doubt she gave a thought to LBCM. She wasn’t jealous. Maybe slightly annoyed that it came up in interviews, but not jealous. She was raking in a lot of money on her huge tour and her name was carrying significantly more weight than Lindsey and Christine as a duo. Her vision of revisiting older material and dusting off songs that haven’t been played in a long time was providing to be more viable than new music. She was vindicated.

Which brings us to 2017. Mick released an expensive picture book of Fleetwood Mac’s 1967-74 years, Stevie and Mick had their listening party of Fleetwood Mac songs from other eras and decided the band was going to play some of those songs (which was obviously going to go over like a lead balloon with Lindsey, but that was Stevie’s vision for the tour), the band was preparing for a 50th career retrospective, Lindsey had the disastrous interview (which lost him Irving), Lindsey lost his ***** and became moody at Classic East during GYOW, Tom Petty died (Mike Campbell was suddenly available), and tour negotiations were very tense.

Lindsey signed a solo deal with Atlantic, had a solo retrospective coming out, and had a new solo album ready to go, so he wanted to focus on that. Initially, he wanted a slight delay and then a tour within a tour. Irving and the band kept saying no and Lindsey kept refusing to sign off on the tour. Whatever happened at MusiCares seems to have been more of the last straw. All of the various issues suddenly snowballed and Stevie decided she couldn’t work with him anymore.

It was a sad but predictable ending to the most dysfunctional band ever.

Well you've won me over. The above is very compelling.

It amazes me Lindsey ever thought the band would approve the "tour within a tour" idea. Say your favorite member of FM is Lindsey and you have the chance to see him without his having to share the spotlight, all for much less money than FM. Are you going to see FM, Lindsey, or both? Some people would choose just to see Lindsey, and in so doing depress the market for FM tickets. The only way it might have worked is if the band conditioned its approval on Lindsey publicizing in advance that he would be doing no FM songs at these shows (and perhaps even on his calling it the "Songs From My Solo Career Only" tour).

[BigAl84]

Don’t forget all the complaining Stevie did about somehow being forced to record the vault album in two weeks in Nashville. She made comments that made it sound like she was under some sort of contractual obligation that would come due in the middle of the Fleetwood Mac tour. Of course Stevie went into her fall on the sword for Fleetwood Mac mode and implied she had to sacrifice her album for Fleetwood Mac. Blah blah blah Fleetwood Mac is like the army blah blah blah I’m the victim blah blah blah we just toured in 2013 blah blah.

She put such a damper on any Fleetwood Mac momentum that came with Christine’s return. Good on Christine and Lindsey for getting BuckVie over the finish line without her. For somebody who was allegedly happy about Christine’s return, she had middle child syndrome the entire time. I still laugh about the interview where Christine mentions that Stevie gave her an iPod with 24K Gold on it. Classic Stevie - I don’t want to record with you, but let me shove my new album in your face because I’m the greatest.

[HomerMcvie]

Don’t forget all the complaining Stevie did about somehow being forced to record the vault album in two weeks in Nashville. She made comments that made it sound like she was under some sort of contractual obligation that would come due in the middle of the Fleetwood Mac tour. Of course Stevie went into her fall on the sword for Fleetwood Mac mode and implied she had to sacrifice her album for Fleetwood Mac. Blah blah blah Fleetwood Mac is like the army blah blah blah I’m the victim blah blah blah we just toured in 2013 blah blah.

She put such a damper on any Fleetwood Mac momentum that came with Christine’s return. Good on Christine and Lindsey for getting BuckVie over the finish line without her. For somebody who was allegedly happy about Christine’s return, she had middle child syndrome the entire time. I still laugh about the interview where Christine mentions that Stevie gave her an iPod with 24K Gold on it. Classic Stevie - I don’t want to record with you, but let me shove my new album in your face because I’m the greatest.

BEST. POST. EVER.

Absolutely a complete egomaniac. I loathe her now.

[BigAl84]

Stevie 2018:
"This team wanted to get out on the road and one of the members didn't want to go out on the road for a whole year"

Let's hop in the hot tub time machine to March of 2012

Mick Fleetwood:
"We were supposed to tour in 2011, but we delayed it for a year to allow Stevie Nicks to support her solo record and for Lindsey Buckingham to do the same with his. I’ve always been supportive of my bandmates doing solo albums, so long as we kept our band together. If you look at the credits as far back as you like, I’ve always played extensively on many of them, and this time was no different. I played drums on most of Stevie’s latest album, the one she is still out there supporting and the one that is the reason that for now she refuses to do a Fleetwood Mac tour. It comes down to her, and for the first time, I think, even Lindsey has lost his patience. All of this uncertainty is a tremendous change for me.”

“Stevie is really proud of her new album, and I get that, but she will not let it go. Honestly, it’s not easy out there, and it’s done well, but she’s insistent upon working it until it is incapable of growing further. I understand what she likes about her situation: Touring in support of her album, she is able to be her, without any degree of compromise. She doesn’t have to worry about the other three of us asking her to do anything—which is basically the contract that comes with being in a band. She has become enthralled and obsessed with her album in a very nice but very inconvenient way. She’s working 20 times harder than she would ever have to with Fleetwood Mac and not making anything close to as much money as she would with us. But that is what she wants to do, and I respect that. In the past I’d not have taken no for an answer. I’d have persuaded Stevie or whoever needed persuading at the time to do the tour. But I’m not doing that this time or ever again, and there is nothing else to say about it. Stevie changed her program and changed her mind, and however willful anyone may be, this is what’s happening. Or not happening, rather. It’s quite simple: Stevie changed her mind. And you know what? That is our innate privilege as humans: Each of us has the right to change our mind.”

[cbBen]

Stevie 2018:
"This team wanted to get out on the road and one of the members didn't want to go out on the road for a whole year"

Let's hop in the hot tub time machine to March of 2012

Mick Fleetwood:
"We were supposed to tour in 2011, but we delayed it for a year to allow Stevie Nicks to support her solo record and for Lindsey Buckingham to do the same with his. I’ve always been supportive of my bandmates doing solo albums, so long as we kept our band together. If you look at the credits as far back as you like, I’ve always played extensively on many of them, and this time was no different. I played drums on most of Stevie’s latest album, the one she is still out there supporting and the one that is the reason that for now she refuses to do a Fleetwood Mac tour. It comes down to her, and for the first time, I think, even Lindsey has lost his patience. All of this uncertainty is a tremendous change for me.”

“Stevie is really proud of her new album, and I get that, but she will not let it go. Honestly, it’s not easy out there, and it’s done well, but she’s insistent upon working it until it is incapable of growing further. I understand what she likes about her situation: Touring in support of her album, she is able to be her, without any degree of compromise. She doesn’t have to worry about the other three of us asking her to do anything—which is basically the contract that comes with being in a band. She has become enthralled and obsessed with her album in a very nice but very inconvenient way. She’s working 20 times harder than she would ever have to with Fleetwood Mac and not making anything close to as much money as she would with us. But that is what she wants to do, and I respect that. In the past I’d not have taken no for an answer. I’d have persuaded Stevie or whoever needed persuading at the time to do the tour. But I’m not doing that this time or ever again, and there is nothing else to say about it. Stevie changed her program and changed her mind, and however willful anyone may be, this is what’s happening. Or not happening, rather. It’s quite simple: Stevie changed her mind. And you know what? That is our innate privilege as humans: Each of us has the right to change our mind.”

Stevie Nicks 2012:
"Fleetwood Mac [had planned to go out this year but now] is going out next year.... I kind of put them on hold. I mean, I made this record. That was a year. Then I toured last year–off and on all last year–and did lots and lots of press. And then I decided to take this year also to tour all summer, because I did not feel that this record was finished. And so it did not make Fleetwood Mac happy but I said to them, ‘I’m taking 2012 for In Your Dreams. I’m sorry. And if you can’t understand that in your heart–how important this is to me–then I’m sorry, but I’m doing it, and I will see you in 2013.'"

2:22-3:08 here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEXglFYtGCk):

[UnwindedDreams]

Stevie Nicks 2012:
"Fleetwood Mac [had planned to go out this year but now] is going out next year.... I kind of put them on hold. I mean, I made this record. That was a year. Then I toured last year–off and on all last year–and did lots and lots of press. And then I decided to take this year also to tour all summer, because I did not feel that this record was finished. And so it did not make Fleetwood Mac happy but I said to them, ‘I’m taking 2012 for In Your Dreams. I’m sorry. And if you can’t understand that in your heart–how important this is to me–then I’m sorry, but I’m doing it, and I will see you in 2013.'"

2:22-3:08 here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEXglFYtGCk): And that is why Stevie Nicks was Fleetwood Mac from 03-13. Chris brought people back in 2014 and Stevie too from AHS and all her tv. After OWTS, it was back to Stevie. However, not in the UK. Lindsey and Christine's album scored higher than Stevie's last 2 albums there.

[BigAl84]

And that is why Stevie Nicks was Fleetwood Mac from 03-13. Chris brought people back in 2014 and Stevie too from AHS and all her tv. After OWTS, it was back to Stevie. However, not in the UK. Lindsey and Christine's album scored higher than Stevie's last 2 albums there.

Actually, if you read reviews from '03-'04 Lindsey most often than not was mentioned for his energy on stage.

[SteveMacD]

Actually, if you read reviews from '03-'04 Lindsey most often than not was mentioned for his energy on stage.

Be that as it may (and it was), Stevie was the one selling tickets.

[petep9000]

And, she’s wrong on that. The demos were almost as lifeless as “Dreams” until Lindsey did something with them. “Thrown Down” was one of the best on the album.

Oh I disagree, the "Thrown Down" outtake from the TISL sessions (with Lindsey and Mick) is vastly superior to the SYW version. John Shanks made it into a huge epic rock song and Stevie sounds great on it.

[bombaysaffires]

Don’t forget all the complaining Stevie did about somehow being forced to record the vault album in two weeks in Nashville. She made comments that made it sound like she was under some sort of contractual obligation that would come due in the middle of the Fleetwood Mac tour. Of course Stevie went into her fall on the sword for Fleetwood Mac mode and implied she had to sacrifice her album for Fleetwood Mac. Blah blah blah Fleetwood Mac is like the army blah blah blah I’m the victim blah blah blah we just toured in 2013 blah blah.

She put such a damper on any Fleetwood Mac momentum that came with Christine’s return. Good on Christine and Lindsey for getting BuckVie over the finish line without her. For somebody who was allegedly happy about Christine’s return, she had middle child syndrome the entire time. I still laugh about the interview where Christine mentions that Stevie gave her an iPod with 24K Gold on it. Classic Stevie - I don’t want to record with you, but let me shove my new album in your face because I’m the greatest.

Let's also not forget that Stevie (and her people) set up a Rolling Stone cover story on Stevie and Stevie alone in the middle of a big FM tour after Christine's return. How's that for team spirit? She was NOT promoting a solo album or touring for one at that time. Lindsey was totally and rightfully p*ssed about this and refused to contribute to the article.. same for Mick and for John. Chris was the only one to speak to the reporter and give any quotes.

She'll delay a band tour for a solo tour, and she'll promote herself OVER her band WHILE touring with them.... but god d*m don't dare "smirk" when she's blathering on and on (and even if everyone around you is waltzing away, rolling their eyes, and laughing about your speech, don't be Lindsey or none of that will matter, you'll still be the bad guy)

[SteveMacD]

She was NOT promoting a solo album or touring for one at that time.
Actually, 24KG had come out three or four months earlier.

[bwboy]

Let's also not forget that Stevie (and her people) set up a Rolling Stone cover story on Stevie and Stevie alone in the middle of a big FM tour after Christine's return. How's that for team spirit? She was NOT promoting a solo album or touring for one at that time. Lindsey was totally and rightfully p*ssed about this and refused to contribute to the article.. same for Mick and for John. Chris was the only one to speak to the reporter and give any quotes.

Really? And here I thought Rolling Stone chose to interview Stevie and put her on the cover, not that Stevie (and her people) set it up. Funny that you mention team spirit and then praise Mick, John, and Lindsey for not speaking to the magazine. The double standard here completely undermines your point.

Someone else mentioned before that at one time Stevie wouldn’t talk to Rolling Stone about FM, which was childish. Here, they do the same thing, which was equally childish.

Just to add, I remember being surprised that RS did a cover story on Stevie when FM was in the midst of a tour, a tour that brought back Christine, no less. But RS had done a cover story and interview with FM not that long before this one, so maybe that was a factor, who knows. When one member of FM gets press, it benefits the group as a whole, anyway, whether it be a solo interview with Lindsey, Stevie, or Christine.

[UnwindedDreams]

Chris was the only one to speak to the reporter and give any quotes.

It's true she spoke to the magazine. However after Christine passed away, it turns out that the interview where Chris spoke with RollingStone wasn't just about Stevie. It was a full unreleased interview. It was about what it's like to have two lead women in a band, the longevity of the band, how Lindsey is the one in the band who knows what Stevie is trying to achieve with her songs (i.e. for Dreams, Chris said to Stevie "“I don’t know what the **** you mean.”:laugh:), and she says Lindsey had a marvelous solo career.

[UnwindedDreams]

But RS had done a cover story and interview with FM not that long before this one, so maybe that was a factor, who knows.
I don't think it's true they got a cover in 2014. The last cover for FM was The Dance.

They were on the Today Show in March 2014. Just as the 2018 lineup was on CBS This Morning with no Rolling Stone Cover.

[bwboy]

It's true she spoke to the magazine. However after Christine passed away, it turns out that the interview where Chris spoke with RollingStone wasn't just about Stevie. It was a full unreleased interview. It was about what it's like to have two lead women in a band, the longevity of the band, how Lindsey is the one in the band who knows what Stevie is trying to achieve with her songs (i.e. for Dreams, Chris said to Stevie "“I don’t know what the **** you mean.”:laugh:), and she says Lindsey had a marvelous solo career.

Not a big deal, but just to be clear, because I was the one who posted that full interview with Christine here after she passed away, the interview in question was about Stevie. In the original, published Rolling Stone article, the writer only included questions and answers to and from Christine that were about Stevie, because that was what the article was about. After Christine’s death, the writer posted the entire interview with Christine, which included questions and answers not specifically about Stevie. It is a great read, and I’m thankful he posted the full interview because Christine shared some really interesting answers.

I just wanted to make sure there wasn’t confusion, since I was the one who posted it here.

[BigAl84]

Really? And here I thought Rolling Stone chose to interview Stevie and put her on the cover, not that Stevie (and her people) set it up. Funny that you mention team spirit and then praise Mick, John, and Lindsey for not speaking to the magazine. The double standard here completely undermines your point.

Someone else mentioned before that at one time Stevie wouldn’t talk to Rolling Stone about FM, which was childish. Here, they do the same thing, which was equally childish.

Just to add, I remember being surprised that RS did a cover story on Stevie when FM was in the midst of a tour, a tour that brought back Christine, no less. But RS had done a cover story and interview with FM not that long before this one, so maybe that was a factor, who knows. When one member of FM gets press, it benefits the group as a whole, anyway, whether it be a solo interview with Lindsey, Stevie, or Christine.


Even if Rolling Stone had approached Stevie's camp about a cover, it doesn't seem likely she said "Thanks, but we're in the middle of a Fleetwood Mac project and it should really be a Fleetwood Mac cover if anything" She went right along with a solo cover story. There hasn't been a new FM cover shot for Rolling Stone since '97.

[elle]

Even if Rolling Stone had approached Stevie's camp about a cover, it doesn't seem likely she said "Thanks, but we're in the middle of a Fleetwood Mac project and it should really be a Fleetwood Mac cover if anything" She went right along with a solo cover story. There hasn't been a new FM cover shot for Rolling Stone since '97.

there has to be some old threads about this. i remember it was discussed here, and basically RS approached them through Stevie's mgmt and wanted the FM cover story, and Stevie's mgmt said how about making a cover story about Stevie instead.

Chris was the only one who was way to nice and a game while others were all not happy that Stevie's trying to make FM tour about only her, and turns out that while Chris gave a nice interview about the band in her answers, only Stevie-related answers were included (of course).

promoting Stevie only in the middle of the FM tour is NOT promoting FM. it's trying to promote that FM is only about Stevie.

[BigAl84]

there has to be some old threads about this. i remember it was discussed here, and basically RS approached them through Stevie's mgmt and wanted the FM cover story, and Stevie's mgmt said how about making a cover story about Stevie instead.

Chris was the only one who was way to nice and a game while others were all not happy that Stevie's trying to make FM tour about only her, and turns out that while Chris gave a nice interview about the band in her answers, only Stevie-related answers were included (of course).

promoting Stevie only in the middle of the FM tour is NOT promoting FM. it's trying to promote that FM is only about Stevie.

Oh gross, I was not aware of that. She's a real gem.

[bwboy]

Even if Rolling Stone had approached Stevie's camp about a cover, it doesn't seem likely she said "Thanks, but we're in the middle of a Fleetwood Mac project and it should really be a Fleetwood Mac cover if anything" She went right along with a solo cover story. There hasn't been a new FM cover shot for Rolling Stone since '97.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but honestly, if my local newspaper wanted to do a profile on me regarding my work with drug addiction, my role in the community, and a look at my family, I would probably say “sure thing!” It wouldn’t occur to me to tell them they should instead do an article and photo spread of my co-workers as well.

[elle]

Really? And here I thought Rolling Stone chose to interview Stevie and put her on the cover, not that Stevie (and her people) set it up.

you thought what Stevie's PR team wanted you to think. that's why they are paid big bucks!

same as you probably think the Stevie deservedly became the first woman inducted into rnrhof twice, rather than numerous other women with way more successful solo carriers, starting with Tina. that's why when Tina (and several others) was finally inducted for the second time, there were no mentions about Stevie already being there. because it was shameful and looked bad for rnrhof.

[jbrownsjr]

you thought what Stevie's PR team wanted you to think. that's why they are paid big bucks!

same as you probably think the Stevie deservedly became the first woman inducted into rnrhof twice, rather than numerous other women with way more successful solo carriers, starting with Tina. that's why when Tina (and several others) was finally inducted for the second time, there were no mentions about Stevie already being there. because it was shameful and looked bad for rnrhof.

What's funny is that Stevie mentions it in her speech. :lol:

[BigAl84]

This isn't a dig at Stevie, but Tina should of been inducted first. It's mind boggling that she wasn't. Tina was part of the Ike and Tina Review, but also had her own solo career.

Okay, this might be a partial dig...I think this is proof of how Stevie's solo career has perhaps (dare I say!!) been over inflated in the past 10-15 years or so. The inflated cult status got her into the HOF before Tina. The prolific songwriter that has been dormant (of writing new material) since 1999....

[jbrownsjr]

This isn't a dig at Stevie, but Tina should of been inducted first. It's mind boggling that she wasn't. Tina was part of the Ike and Tina Review, but also as a solo artist!!

Okay, this might be a partial dig...I think this is proof of how Stevie's solo career has perhaps (dare I say!!) been over inflated in the past 10-15 years or so. The inflated cult status got her into the HOF before Tina. The prolific songwriter that has been dormant (of writing new material) since 1999....

Absolutely, at this point having great mgmt is key. Like Elle said, she gets the best press money can buy. Lindsey didn't really kiss ass when it came to the powers that give such awards or record companies, mgmt, etc.. It clearly hurt him. They dropped him like a 7 dollar bill. ;)

[elle]

This isn't a dig at Stevie, but Tina should of been inducted first. It's mind boggling that she wasn't. Tina was part of the Ike and Tina Review, but also had her own solo career.

Okay, this might be a partial dig...I think this is proof of how Stevie's solo career has perhaps (dare I say!!) been over inflated in the past 10-15 years or so. The inflated cult status got her into the HOF before Tina. The prolific songwriter that has been dormant (of writing new material) since 1999....

it was not the inflated cult status, it was behind the scenes work of IA and co.

it's amazing how humble Tina was in her acceptance speech too. the woman with solo carrier that had number one hits in every decade and who completely reinvented herself and created a huge new solo carrier after Ike and Tina.

[BigAl84]

it was not the inflated cult status, it was behind the scenes work of IA and co.

it's amazing how humble Tina was in her acceptance speech too. the woman with solo carrier that had number one hits in every decade and who completely reinvented herself and created a huge new solo carrier after Ike and Tina.

Oh I absolutely agree. It was the behind the scenes work and the cult status just guaranteed a positive reception and a low risk scenario for the RRHOF.

[BigAl84]

Glen Frey's son has left the Eagles. I wonder how poorly he has been blacklisted by Irving etc. for having the audacity to leave the money making machine.

[bombaysaffires]

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but honestly, if my local newspaper wanted to do a profile on me regarding my work with drug addiction, my role in the community, and a look at my family, I would probably say “sure thing!” It wouldn’t occur to me to tell them they should instead do an article and photo spread of my co-workers as well.

completely and totally different and irrelevant

[bwboy]

you thought what Stevie's PR team wanted you to think. that's why they are paid big bucks!

same as you probably think the Stevie deservedly became the first woman inducted into rnrhof twice, rather than numerous other women with way more successful solo carriers, starting with Tina. that's why when Tina (and several others) was finally inducted for the second time, there were no mentions about Stevie already being there. because it was shameful and looked bad for rnrhof.

Just because Im not a fan, or actively dislike someone, doesn’t mean I don’t think they should be inducted. I dislike KISS, but I’d never say they shouldn’t be inducted.

As a fan of Stevie, I’m totally glad she’s in the RRHOF twice. I’m also glad Tina Turner is, too. If Diana Ross gets inducted for her solo career, I’m not going to say she doesn’t deserve it.

[BigAl84]

Just because Im not a fan, or actively dislike someone, doesn’t mean I don’t think they should be inducted. I dislike KISS, but I’d never say they shouldn’t be inducted.

As a fan of Stevie, I’m totally glad she’s in the RRHOF twice. I’m also glad Tina Turner is, too. If Diana Ross gets inducted for her solo career, I’m not going to say she doesn’t deserve it.

I don't think anyone is saying she shouldn't have been inducted. The point is, Tina was well established by 1975. Well before Stevie. She was part of a band/duo and also had a solo career. The RRHOF touted Stevie as being one of the first women to do that and a big reason behind her induction, which isn't entirely accurate.

[elle]

Just because Im not a fan, or actively dislike someone, doesn’t mean I don’t think they should be inducted. I dislike KISS, but I’d never say they shouldn’t be inducted.

As a fan of Stevie, I’m totally glad she’s in the RRHOF twice. I’m also glad Tina Turner is, too. If Diana Ross gets inducted for her solo career, I’m not going to say she doesn’t deserve it.
what she says bellow. you seem to be missing the point, again.

just because you are a fan of someone, doesn't mean you have to be blind to much larger contributions of other women, who should have been there twice or even more (or were not there even once and were long eligible) before a much smaller solo career needed to be recognized.
completely and totally different and irrelevant

[HomerMcvie]

what she says bellow. you seem to be missing the point, again.

just because you are a fan of someone, doesn't mean you have to be blind to much larger contributions of other women, who should have been there twice or even more (or were not there even once and were long eligible) before a much smaller solo career needed to be recognized.
He's totally Team Chiffon, no matter how hard he protests. He can't hide it.

[bwboy]

He's totally Team Chiffon, no matter how hard he protests. He can't hide it.

I’m totally a Stevie fan! I’m just rational and don’t hate people I’ve never met because they got another millionaire kicked out of a rock and roll group LOL! Also, I’m team Fleetwood Mac.

Rock on! :]

I also don’t care Stevie was admitted twice before Tina. I just have better things to whine about, that’s all.

[BigAl84]

I’m totally a Stevie fan! I’m just rational and don’t hate people I’ve never met because they got another millionaire kicked out of a rock and roll group LOL! Also, I’m team Fleetwood Mac.

Rock on! :]

I also don’t care Stevie was admitted twice before Tina. I just have better things to whine about, that’s all.

Team Fleetwood Mac yet complacent with what took place in 2017/2018? That's always a head scratcher for me.

[elle]

Team Fleetwood Mac yet complacent with what took place in 2017/2018? That's always a head scratcher for me.

lol. yep, oxymoron.

[BigAl84]

it was not the inflated cult status, it was behind the scenes work of IA and co.

it's amazing how humble Tina was in her acceptance speech too. the woman with solo carrier that had number one hits in every decade and who completely reinvented herself and created a huge new solo carrier after Ike and Tina.

Tina didn't hold court for a half hour at the podium!?

Does anyone remember these humble 90's quotes from Stevie i.e.
“Your graciousness is what carries you. It isn't how old you are, how beautiful you are, or how short your skirt is. What it is, is what comes out of your heart. If you are gracious, you have won the game.”

It's all so extra hilarious now.

[elle]

Tina didn't hold court for a half hour at the podium!?

Tina is amazing.as is Cher (still not there solo, just as a duo). or Cyndi. is Diana Ross in there at least twice?

since rnrhof despite all their shortcomings still means something, also good to finally see more women and women-fronted bands finally inducted in recent years, Janet, Pat Benatar, Carole King (2nd time) .Eurythmics, Carly Simon, The Go-Go's... and for most of these names one can easily say - really hof? only inducted now?

and then there's incomparable Dolly (whether or not she or you think she is rnr enough).

interesting (although now outdated because from 2021) article with very relevant excerpt here:

But when compared to others, it makes one wonder. Singer/Actor Cher has sold more than 100 million records worldwide and is recognized as one of the world's top-selling female recording artists of all time. She’s had 7 Grammy Award nominations and won one Grammy for “Believe.” Cher, a cultural icon and rock legend, completing 26 studio albums, ten compilation albums, two soundtrack albums and three live albums still waits for the nod. And by the way, didn’t Cher set fashion and cultural trends from her stages as a rock Goddess for some four decades? And yet, no doors open for her at the RRHOF. Cyndi Lauper has released 11 studio albums, six compilation albums, five video albums and fifty-one singles. Worldwide, Cyndi has sold approximately 50 million albums. She’s had 16 Grammy Award nominations and won two. Neither of them are in the Hall as yet.

much more here, including Patti LaBelle, Chaka Khan, Gloria Estefan, and the list goes on: https://www.pgsuite.com/culture-arts/2021/11/26/guess-which-women-are-not-in-the-rock-amp-roll-hall-of-fame

[SteveMacD]

Team Fleetwood Mac yet complacent with what took place in 2017/2018? That's always a head scratcher for me.

Soap operas always end on a plot twist. Were you expecting anything different?

Just paying attention to what they said in interviews 2015-17 and looking at the body language at the Classics (especially GYOW from Classic East), it wasn’t remotely surprising or shocking that there was some type of separation, and it was kind of obvious how it was going to play out. Unfortunate, but not shocking.

Getting to actually see the band play “Black Magic Woman,” TMATTYD, “Hypnotized,” and especially “All Over Again” made it completely worthwhile. Hearing Christine trading solos with Mike made it worth it. I’m not speaking about the entire tour, just the shows I attended. As a fan of Fleetwood Mac’s entire body of work, it was refreshing to hear songs beyond the Rumours/SYW eras beyond “Oh Well.”

Furthermore, I also got to see Lindsey solo, so I still got to hear “Big Love,” “Tusk,” and ISA, as well as a few deep cuts that I never thought I’d get to see, especially “I Must Go.”

[elle]

Soap operas always end on a plot twist.

like the main character becoming possessed by the devil (see Marlena in Days). maybe that's apt here?

[jbrownsjr]

Soap opera, yes!! But getting back to the documentary (soap). We can see the plot moving forward. I'm not saying it was planned at all to get rid of LB. back in 1998-2002. But, you sure can see the genesis in this documentary.


The good news for Christine and Lindsey: They could still play and create without her. And they were very wealthy. The bad news was, it hurt the final chapter in my opinion.

[UnwindedDreams]

Not a big deal, but just to be clear, because I was the one who posted that full interview with Christine here after she passed away, the interview in question was about Stevie. In the original, published Rolling Stone article, the writer only included questions and answers to and from Christine that were about Stevie, because that was what the article was about. After ChristineÂ’s death, the writer posted the entire interview with Christine, which included questions and answers not specifically about Stevie. It is a great read, and IÂ’m thankful he posted the full interview because Christine shared some really interesting answers.

I just wanted to make sure there wasnÂ’t confusion, since I was the one who posted it here.
For sure, you're right. When I first read the article in 2015, it seemed like they got a few comments from Chris on Stevie. Then it was an actual interview with other subjects touched on. Of course, they wouldn't include Chris saying she thinks Lindsey had a marvelous career in that 2015 piece LOL!

[bwboy]

Team Fleetwood Mac yet complacent with what took place in 2017/2018? That's always a head scratcher for me.

I don’t know how old you are, so I don’t know if you were a FM fan back in 1987 when Lindsey left, but the similarities for me are striking. Pre-internet, we had to wait for scraps of information about the tour, who was going to replace him, what would the setlist be, etc. not being able to read concert reviews until they came to your city. Nothing like today. Anyway, I remember thinking “if only Lindsey could stick it out for the tour… just a few months.” But he didn’t. Did I hate him for breaking the chain? Nope. He was an adult and he had every right to leave. I still bought his solo albums.

To me, this is so similar to what happened then. You don’t have to try to convince me I’m wrong, and likewise I won’t try to convince you you’re wrong. I think that’s what’s been happening here, at least on my part, unintentionally. But when I see what totally looks like a double standard thing happening, for example calling Stevie out on something that Lindsey also did, I feel the urge to play devil’s advocate and say “oh really.” I probably shouldn’t do it but if haters gonna hate, at least be consistent LOL!

[UnwindedDreams]

Furthermore, I also got to see Lindsey solo, so I still got to hear “Big Love,” “Tusk,” and ISA, as well as a few deep cuts that I never thought I’d get to see, especially “I Must Go.”
And some premium lip synching!:laugh:

[jbrownsjr]

And some premium lip synching!:laugh:

And premium guitar tracks!

[DownOnRodeo]

Does anyone remember these humble 90's quotes from Stevie i.e.
“Your graciousness is what carries you. It isn't how old you are, how beautiful you are, or how short your skirt is. What it is, is what comes out of your heart. If you are gracious, you have won the game.”

It's all so extra hilarious now.

The second half of that quote speaks the bigger truth about her.

[BigAl84]

I don’t know how old you are, so I don’t know if you were a FM fan back in 1987 when Lindsey left, but the similarities for me are striking. Pre-internet, we had to wait for scraps of information about the tour, who was going to replace him, what would the setlist be, etc. not being able to read concert reviews until they came to your city. Nothing like today. Anyway, I remember thinking “if only Lindsey could stick it out for the tour… just a few months.” But he didn’t. Did I hate him for breaking the chain? Nope. He was an adult and he had every right to leave. I still bought his solo albums.

To me, this is so similar to what happened then. You don’t have to try to convince me I’m wrong, and likewise I won’t try to convince you you’re wrong. I think that’s what’s been happening here, at least on my part, unintentionally. But when I see what totally looks like a double standard thing happening, for example calling Stevie out on something that Lindsey also did, I feel the urge to play devil’s advocate and say “oh really.” I probably shouldn’t do it but if haters gonna hate, at least be consistent LOL!

How on earth is the ‘87 scenario similar to ‘18. He left by his own decision in ‘87. In 2018 Stevie worked with Irving Azoff to push him out of the band. There’s no double standard here. Lindsey didn’t have Stevie kicked out of the band in 1987 nor did Stevie try to do the same in ‘87. He left on his own. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

In terms of “breaking the chain”, Lindsey to my knowledge never made public comments about “never sharing the stage with Stevie ever again” between 87-97. Stevie made it very clear in 2018 that she was burning her bridges and never wanted to perform with Lindsey again. On the flip side, when Lindsey was asked by CBS if he would ever consider working with Fleetwood Mac his response was “of course” He also never refused to work on a Fleetwood Mac album during the periods in which he was a member. Stevie has actively blocked a new album since 2010. Fast forward to 2019 when Mike Campbell sent her tracks, he claims he received radio silence.

It’s not at all about convincing - there’s actually a lot of documentation around what actually happened and didn’t happen. There’s not a lot of speculation or grey areas here. It’s very clearly outlined who threw the final darts in 2018.

[BigAl84]

The second half of that quote speaks the bigger truth about her.

Please do elaborate!

[elle]

It’s not at all about convincing - there’s actually a lot of documentation around what actually happened and didn’t happen. There’s not a lot of speculation or grey areas here. It’s very clearly outlined who threw the final darts in 2018.

right.

also, not sure why some people think that others are trying to convince them. or why others try to convince people who know way more than them. and then some seem to think that people hate one or the other person just because they state some facts or put things in the perspective. no reason to call anyone haters, whiners or whatever condescending terms.

some people know the facts, others actually have some backstage information, and simply share the information instead of the made up or misleading stuff. that's all.

[SteveMacD]

How on earth is the ‘87 scenario similar to ‘18. He left by his own decision in ‘87. In 2018 Stevie worked with Irving Azoff to push him out of the band.

The exact similarity is that one party felt they needed to get away from the other.

[BigAl84]

The exact similarity is that one party felt they needed to get away from the other.

And the execution of that leave is entirely different. Leaving vs. using your management to force somebody out of the band. Two completely different moves that had different implications to the rest of the band.

[BigAl84]

right.

also, not sure why some people think that others are trying to convince them. or why others try to convince people who know way more than them. and then some seem to think that people hate one or the other person just because they state some facts or put things in the perspective. no reason to call anyone haters, whiners or whatever condescending terms.

some people know the facts, others actually have some backstage information, and simply share the information instead of the made up or misleading stuff. that's all.

Completely agree. Fans who have been paying attention to what’s been going on leading up to 2018 and beyond get labeled as “hating” The reality is we’ve paid attention to a decade long period of BS. Not to mention we watched other members of the band go silent while Mick Fleetwood led the most dishonest PR campaign of his career, only to kiss Lindsey’s a$$ two years later.

[UnwindedDreams]

This isn't a dig at Stevie, but Tina should of been inducted first. It's mind boggling that she wasn't. Tina was part of the Ike and Tina Review, but also had her own solo career.

Okay, this might be a partial dig...I think this is proof of how Stevie's solo career has perhaps (dare I say!!) been over inflated in the past 10-15 years or so. The inflated cult status got her into the HOF before Tina. The prolific songwriter that has been dormant (of writing new material) since 1999....
Tina opened the door for Stevie's solo career. Many people in the Black Community do not feel that Stevie is the Queen of Rock.
Calling Stevie the Queen of Rock is white washing music history.

[BigAl84]

Tina opened the door for Stevie's solo career. Many people in the Black Community do not feel that Stevie is the Queen of Rock.
Calling Stevie the Queen of Rock is white washing music history.

Right! It’s also absurd that Rosetta Tharpe wasn’t inducted until 2018.

[SteveMacD]

And the execution of that leave is entirely different. Leaving vs. using your management to force somebody out of the band. Two completely different moves that had different implications to the rest of the band.

Yes. Lindsey left the band 56 days before opening night. Stevie said she couldn’t work with Lindsey anymore and Mick and Irving scrambled to keep her in the band after asking promoters which one they’d rather have in the group.

Incidentally, Irving was Lindsey’s manager, not Stevie’s.

[BigAl84]

You’re such a Mick, Stevie, and Irving fanboy!

[SteveMacD]

You’re such Mick and Irving fanboy!

Those are the facts. Too bad you have to resort to name calling than debate the facts.

[BigAl84]

Those are the facts. Too bad you have to resort to name calling than debate the facts.

Oh I wasn’t aware that “fanboy” was considered name calling LOL. Wowzers. Shouldn’t you be patrolling the forums for grammatical errors or something?

[elle]

Yes. Lindsey left the band 56 days before opening night. Stevie said she couldn’t work with Lindsey anymore and Mick and Irving scrambled to keep her in the band

Lindsey left 56 days before the fully booked tour.

it was over 8 months before the start of the planned tour in 2018, which was not booked yet, when Stevie pulled her ultimatum. so there was no reason to scramble. plus you have speculated that they planned this since mid 2017.

Stevie, Irving, and Azoff decided to push Lindsey out. or maybe Stevie and Irving decided, and presented Mick with take it or leave it deal. we know that Chris and John were stunned and wanted nothing to do with it, when it first went down.

[SteveMacD]

Oh I wasn’t aware that “fanboy” was considered name calling LOL. Wowzers. Perhaps you are miffed that I didn’t choose to engage in a half baked argument with you.

Nothing half-baked at all.

Stevie couldn’t work with Lindsey anymore in 2018 just like he couldn’t work with her in 1987.

“So, Stevie should have left” you say.

Let’s say Stevie said “That’s it. I quit. I can’t do this anymore. I can’t work with Lindsey. Send me postcards from the road.” What outcome other than Mick and Irving giving her a “there, there” and scrambling to keep her in the band by any means necessary do you think would have actually happened?

[SteveMacD]

Lindsey left 56 days before the fully booked tour.


Which is way worse. Leaving the band less than eight weeks when there’s a fully booked tour behind a hit album?!? Yikes!

[bwboy]

right.

also, not sure why some people think that others are trying to convince them. or why others try to convince people who know way more than them. and then some seem to think that people hate one or the other person just because they state some facts or put things in the perspective. no reason to call anyone haters, whiners or whatever condescending terms.

some people know the facts, others actually have some backstage information, and simply share the information instead of the made up or misleading stuff. that's all.

I know the facts, it’s just not a big deal to me, that’s all. It’s not like people don’t ‘understand the true story’- most people don’t care that much about people they don’t know. One person said either him or me, so that person was fired. Happens all the time in life. Lindsey is just fine. Maybe I would have felt differently if he hadn’t gotten a $14 million dollar settlement or however much it was. I know people who have been fired that just got their last paycheck. If FM had fired Stevie instead, I wouldn’t have felt sorry for her, either. And if you’re not a FM hater, well, you come across that way in your posts.

I was also really annoyed when Lindsey wouldn’t let Christine record on Say You Will, but I bought the album, and I didn’t hate him. I could have, but I didn’t. He had a right to work how he wanted to, and if he didn’t want to let Chris record with them because she wouldn’t tour, that was his right.

[BigAl84]

Nothing half-baked at all.

Stevie couldn’t work with Lindsey anymore in 2018 just like he couldn’t work with her in 1987.

“So, Stevie should have left” you say.

Let’s say Stevie said “That’s it. I quit. I can’t do this anymore. I can’t work with Lindsey. Send me postcards from the road.” What outcome other than Mick and Irving giving her a “there, there” and scrambling to keep her in the band by any means necessary do you think would have actually happened?

None of this is really relevant to the original comment that was made equating the 87 and 18 events as equals. The outcomes were entirely different.

[elle]

Let’s say Stevie said “That’s it. I quit. I can’t do this anymore. I can’t work with Lindsey. Send me postcards from the road.” What outcome other than Mick and Irving giving her a “there, there” and scrambling to keep her in the band by any means necessary do you think would have actually happened?

it was over 8 months before the start of the planned tour in 2018, which was not booked yet, when Stevie pulled her ultimatum. so there was no reason to scramble. plus you have speculated that they planned this since mid 2017..

no reason to scramble. they could have waited. why rush?

apparently Stevie was not really in any rush if she was willing to pull out. we know Lindsey was not, he wanted to tour solo first. John couldn't care less. Chris was not happy with their stunt. so who needed that tour and wanted to scramble so bad? Irving? Mick?

[SteveMacD]

None of this is really relevant to the original comment that was made equating the 87 and 18 events as equals. The outcomes were entirely different.

Not really. One person decided they couldn’t work with the other and the band carried on with new guitarists.

[BigAl84]

Which is way worse. Leaving the band less than eight weeks when there’s a fully booked tour behind a hit album?!? Yikes!

What’s worse is crapping all over the legacy of the band in the final few years of productivity, blocking the completion of an album with all 5 members, driving a major wedge between multiple members of the band, forcing major lineup decisions to be made without informing the rest of the band first (apparently Christine wasn’t informed until after the fact)

[bwboy]

None of this is really relevant to the original comment that was made equating the 87 and 18 events as equals. The outcomes were entirely different.

Lindsey left FM right before a tour in 1987; Lindsey was fired from FM right before a tour in 2018. It’s not exactly the same situation, and I never said it was. I said they were very similar. Even during the 1987 tour, there was no guarantee FM was going to record another album together- it depended on how the band got along during the tour and audience and critical reaction, which fortunately went very well. Obviously the outcome was way different in 2018 because the tour was longer. I thought there was a chance Stevie would record with them since Lindsey was out of the picture. Once Covid struck, I knew it wasn’t going to happen. So yeah, the two incidents are very similar to me.

[BigAl84]

Not really. One person decided they couldn’t work with the other and the band carried on with new guitarists.

And you’re conveniently leaving out the part where Lindsey was fired from the group in 2018 and was NOT fired in 1987.

Is this the part where you quote Mick and say “we don’t use words like that” LOL

[BigAl84]

Lindsey left FM right before a tour in 1987; Lindsey was fired from FM right before a tour in 2018. It’s not exactly the same situation, and I never said it was. I said they were very similar. Even during the 1987 tour, there was no guarantee FM was going to record another album together- it depended on how the band got along during the tour and audience and critical reaction, which fortunately went very well. Obviously the outcome was way different in 2018 because the tour was longer. I thought there was a chance Stevie would record with them since Lindsey was out of the picture. Once Covid struck, I knew it wasn’t going to happen. So yeah, the two incidents are very similar to me.

Well apologies for the misunderstanding. To me being barred from the group vs not being barred from the group and walking away on my own accord are two drastically different situations. To each their own.

[BigAl84]

no reason to scramble. they could have waited. why rush?

apparently Stevie was not really in any rush if she was willing to pull out. we know Lindsey was not, he wanted to tour solo first. John couldn't care less. Chris was not happy with their stunt. so who needed that tour and wanted to scramble so bad? Irving? Mick?

And didn’t the FM tour wind up starting well past the 3 month delay Lindsey was asking for as a compromise? So the whole thing wound up a moot point.

[elle]

And you’re conveniently leaving out the part where Lindsey was fired from the group in 2018 and was NOT fired in 1987.

Is this the part where you quote Mick and say “we don’t use words like that” LOL

the plan was to blame it on Lindsey, and make him the fall guy, to say he left them in the bind again just like he did in 1987. it didn't work because Lindsey wanted the truth out., that this was nothing like 1987.

it was funny to watch Mick, Stevie and others scramble in that April CBS interview, since they were so obviously stuck with their original lines that were now unusable, and nobody provided them with what to say once it was made public what actually happened.

[elle]

And didn’t the FM tour wind up starting well past the 3 month delay Lindsey was asking for as a compromise? So the whole thing wound up a moot point.

yes, 8 months after the firing.

[BigAl84]

the plan was to blame it on Lindsey, and make him the fall guy, to say he left them in the bind again just like he did in 1987. it didn't work because Lindsey wanted the truth out., that this was nothing like 1987.

it was funny to watch Mick, Stevie and others scramble in that April CBS interview, since they were so obviously stuck with their original lines that were now unusable, and nobody provided them with what to say once it was made public what actually happened.

And Christine literally the pickle in the middle as she was seated between Mick and Stevie. Her body language said everything that needed to be said.

[bwboy]

And you’re conveniently leaving out the part where Lindsey was fired from the group in 2018 and was NOT fired in 1987.

I think SteveMacD knew you were aware of that, so he didn’t need to say it.

The level of uncertainty at what Lindsey did in 1987, leaving the band in the lurch like he did right before a tour… and I’m not saying he was wrong for doing it. But if he could have waited until after the tour and then left the band, who knows, maybe it would have worked out great. Stevie was off cocaine and hadn’t started abusing Klonopin, so touring probably would have gone way smoother than the recording of Tango did. When he left, I thought the was the end of FM. And it wasn’t.

Like I said, I didn’t hate FM when the Time album came out. I didn’t hate them when Lindsey wouldn’t let Christine record with them. And I didn’t hate them when they fired Lindsey and went on tour. Just like I didn’t hate him in 1987.

[BigAl84]

Also let’s not forget that Brett Tuggle aired the dirty laundry to Rolling Stone, confirming a lot of details and fans still continue to diminish everything that went down.

[UnwindedDreams]

I thought there was a chance Stevie would record with them since Lindsey was out of the picture. Once Covid struck, I knew it wasn’t going to happen. Bwboy, there was never a chance the 2018 lineup was going to make new music. Not recording wasn't about Lindsey. Stevie wants to be successful touring. She knows she can't have a #1 song or album again.
If Fleetwood Mac put out an album and it hit #7 like 24KG did, Stevie wouldn't be able to live with herself.
Show Them The Way and For What It's Worth didn't go anywhere. Dreams did thanks to Nathan.
Mike and Neil were not hired to make new music. I hoped they would but it's clear to me they were hired to play on the 2018-2019 Tour and that's it. There have been FM re-releases with Lindsey on them since the 2018-2019 Tour, nothing with Mike and Neil. It's been 3 years since the last show, surely there could have been a live album or BluRay. And they could've made an album in 2021 or 2022. As Trouble in Shangri-La goes "I make excuses for you";)

[elle]

if you’re not a FM hater, well, you come across that way in your posts.

oh wow, I'm seriously confused. how do you define "FM hater"? someone who states stuff that may not always be flattering is not automatically a hater.

i don't think anyone on this board "hates" the band. but we might dislike some or the other periods or actions.

[elle]

Also let’s not forget that Brett Tuggle aired the dirty laundry to Rolling Stone, confirming a lot of details and fans still continue to diminish everything that went down.

ah yes, forgot about that. he confirmed everything we knew for a while, that some just didn't want to accept.

[BigAl84]

Bwboy, there was never a chance the 2018 lineup was going to make new music. Not recording wasn't about Lindsey. Stevie wants to be successful touring. She knows she can't have a #1 song or album again.
If Fleetwood Mac put out an album and it hit #7 like 24KG did, Stevie wouldn't be able to live with herself.
Show Them The Way and For What It's Worth didn't go anywhere. Dreams did thanks to Nathan.
Mike and Neil were not hired to make new music. I hoped they would but it's clear to me they were hired to play on the 2018-2019 Tour and that's it. There have been FM re-releases with Lindsey on them since the 2018-2019 Tour, nothing with Mike and Neil. It's been 3 years since the last show, surely there could have been a live album or BluRay. And they could've made an album in 2021 or 2022. As Trouble in Shangri-La goes "I make excuses for you";)

BuckVie still gets a ton of positive press. I’m sure that’s a bug up her a$$ to this day. Now with Christine gone, the spotlight has been put on it as the last time the group worked together and it’s always mentioned that she was absent.

The silver lining is, it’s probably a stronger record without her contributions if her last two original singles are anything to go by.

[elle]

Soap opera, yes!! But getting back to the documentary (soap). We can see the plot moving forward. I'm not saying it was planned at all to get rid of LB. back in 1998-2002. But, you sure can see the genesis in this documentary.


The good news for Christine and Lindsey: They could still play and create without her. And they were very wealthy. The bad news was, it hurt the final chapter in my opinion.

heh, yes. sorry mr mod!

[bwboy]

Show Them The Way and For What It's Worth didn't go anywhere. Dreams did thanks to Nathan.
Mike and Neil were not hired to make new music. I hoped they would but it's clear to me they were hired to play on the 2018-2019 Tour and that's it. There have been FM re-releases with Lindsey on them since the 2018-2019 Tour, nothing with Mike and Neil. It's been 3 years since the last show, surely there could have been a live album or BluRay. And they could've made an album in 2021 or 2022. As Trouble in Shangri-La goes "I make excuses for you";)

Well, Dreams did well because of the viral video AND because it’s a great song- the same can’t be said for Show Them the Way and For What It’s Worth, both of which were god awful.

You’re probably right about Stevie never recording with FM. I do think, for whatever reason, she just wouldn’t record with Lindsey anymore, despite all the concessions he made for her on the EP. But since she did record those two new songs, that suggests to me she would be willing to record an another album, and since she’s collaborated with Mike Campbell before, it seemed like a possibility. With Christine gone, I know it won’t happen, but like you said, it wouldn’t have happened anyway.

If there was any unreleased music by Christine with or without FM, and I’m sure there is, I hope it gets released. Maybe a post-Rumours collection, similar to the pre-Rumours collection that came out a few years back. Combine Behind the Mask and Time for a Deluxe Edition. Maybe there are outtakes or other songs that Patrick Leonard produced.

There’s got to be more Christine material!

[UnwindedDreams]

BuckVie still gets a ton of positive press. I’m sure that’s a bug up her a$$ to this day. Now with Christine gone, the spotlight has been put on it as the last time the group worked together and it’s always mentioned that she was absent.

The silver lining is, it’s probably a stronger record without her contributions if her last two original singles are anything to go by.

What I meant was that if the album didn't hit #1, Stevie would be devastated. She was when In Your Dreams hit #6. Stevie was really hot in 2014 and even with that and the TV appearances, 24KG hit #7

[BigAl84]

What I meant was that if the album didn't hit #1, Stevie would be devastated. She was when In Your Dreams hit #6. Stevie was really hot in 2014 and even with that and the TV appearances, 24KG hit #7

You’re not wrong. Her stance on recording new music has either been “it costs too much for what it will sell” or “it takes too much time and I’m not willing to invest that amount of time” Having a #1 FM album would be the only thing that would make it worthwhile in her eyes because she’s only interested in the recognition at this point in the game.

Her tune flip flops a bit more when discussing solo records (shocker) for a brief period she decided she didn’t care how many copies 24k sold etc. Yet, we are quickly approaching 8 years since 24k was released and the only thing that followed it up was a live album and two single tracks.

[jbrownsjr]

heh, yes. sorry mr mod!

I honestly forget I'm a mod. What's to mod? You people all say the same things Over and Over again. Christine is rolling in her grave!!!


Roll with me Henry!

[BigAl84]

I honestly forget I'm a mod. What's to mod? You people all say the same things Over and Over again. Christine is rolling in her grave!!!


Roll with me Henry!

Ahahahahaha this made me laugh! To put it in terms Christine would use - I think she would be “gobsmacked” by the extent in which things are discussed around here.

[UnwindedDreams]

Right! It’s also absurd that Rosetta Tharpe wasn’t inducted until 2018.
Madness. Diana Ross, Chaka Khan, Tracy Chapman, LaBelle, Gloria Estefan, and Mary J Blige should've been in before 2019.

But Stevie's white and has Irving, who got himself in the Hall in 2020, so she got in before them.

[SteveMacD]

What’s worse is crapping all over the legacy of the band
Did Lindsey give a damn about the band’s legacy when he quit 56 days before opening night?

blocking the completion of an album with all 5 members,
She didn’t block the completion of the album, she just didn’t participate. As I asked elsewhere, is there anything Stevie Nicks circa 2014-16 could have contributed that would have made the album better or would it have been another TITN situation? I’d rather have ten solid, good songs than an album that’s all over the map.

The only gripe I have is that it wasn’t credited to Fleetwood Mac and that Lindsey stuck to the ridiculous “it felt like a duet album” script, proving he was just as much of a liar for the big machine as anyone else.

It’s tragic he completely forget the equation when asked if he was looking forward to the Classic shows. All he had to say is something like “it’s always great whenever Fleetwood Mac gets back together on stage.” To throw your manager’s massive festival under the bus is almost a good idea.

forcing major lineup decisions to be made without informing the rest of the band first (apparently Christine wasn’t informed until after the fact)
The vibe I got is they did it that way to protect Christine. However, even if she had been included in the vote, she would have sided with Mick. Her loyalty was always to Fleetwood Mac.

[UnwindedDreams]

You’re not wrong. Her stance on recording new music has either been “it costs too much for what it will sell” or “it takes too much time and I’m not willing to invest that amount of time” Having a #1 FM album would be the only thing that would make it worthwhile in her eyes because she’s only interested in the recognition at this point in the game.

Her tune flip flops a bit more when discussing solo records (shocker) for a brief period she decided she didn’t care how many copies 24k sold etc. Yet, we are quickly approaching 8 years since 24k was released and the only thing that followed it up was a live album and two single tracks.
A live album that has 3 songs from the album the tour was promoting in a 20 song setlist.

[BigAl84]

Did Lindsey give a damn about the band’s legacy when he quit 56 days before opening night?


She didn’t block the completion of the album, she just didn’t participate. As I asked elsewhere, is there anything Stevie Nicks circa 2014-16 could have contributed that would have made the album better or would it have been another TITN situation? I’d rather have ten solid, good songs than an album that’s all over the map.

The only gripe I have is that it wasn’t credited to Fleetwood Mac and that Lindsey stuck to the ridiculous “it felt like a duet album” script, proving he was just as much of a liar for the big machine as anyone else.

It’s tragic he completely forget the equation when asked if he was looking forward to the Classic shows. All he had to say is something like “it’s always great whenever Fleetwood Mac gets back together on stage.” To throw your manager’s massive festival under the bus is almost a good idea.


The vibe I got is they did it that way to protect Christine. However, even if she had been included in the vote, she would have sided with Mick. Her loyalty was always to Fleetwood Mac.

Or you know maybe he stuck to the duet script as a way to give Stevie an out instead of constantly putting her in the hot seat. I know painting Lindsey as the biggest jerk in the world is a favorite pasttime, but perhaps it was a moment of grace instead of lying for the big machine.

I actually agree that in hindsight it’s a better album without her. She clearly didn’t have much to offer then and now.

[BigAl84]

Oh they knew exactly what they were doing leaving Christine in the dark. It wasn’t about protection. They knew darn well she would have slammed down the gavel on that BS immediately. They couldn’t afford to lose Christine and Lindsey. Then it becomes Stevie and the Mac band. I could be crazy but didn’t it eventually come out that Christine threatened to quit, but it was a bit of a moot point because Lindsey was already fired?

[jbrownsjr]

I didn't see it until much much later. But, Lindsey lost a lot of power by leaving in 1987. He showed mgmt:

1. Lindsey could be replaced and they could successfully tour with Stevie and Christine. I think the Vito/Burnette line up lost steam because they didn't want to do it anymore. (1990) But, in 2018 they only need one tour. Why? THEY OLD!!!

2. He stuck it to the band (1987) and the people that make money from them. I don't think they ever forgot that. Doesn't matter if his own personal choice was justified by Mick and Stevie's horrible behavior. You have to show up in that business. You can't just quit. Nobody will ever trust you again.

I also believe Christine lost a lot of power and confidence after her 15 yr absence. Leaving had weakened both of them. Christine cost them a lot of money during The Dance. They could have sold out Europe. And meanwhile, Stevie is building her power and mgmt to the level that her assistant has just as much say as a band member. (Leaving weakened her too). But she got back to busine$$.

So in 2002, when Lindsey is trying to create with his new found 4 piece and write and produce FM, he can no longer get them to buy into making "art".
He can't convince them to flip the industry on its head and make a double album. Heck, he can't even get Stevie to write with him. She came in with her songs, did her parts, wanted creative control of her work, and boom she was gone until the tour.

She then later complained - probably I'm guessing because - the album didn't do well. They even put out a deluxe package with the extra tracks and that had to cost a lot.

He kind of opened the door for them to axe him. He knew she was a egomaniac. And Mick was not going to protect him. (as you can see in the documentary). And then in 2018, Mick again went with what Carl, or Irving or anyone else holding the wallet wanted.

Period.

[BigAl84]

A live album that has 3 songs from the album the tour was promoting in a 20 song setlist.

And how many years after the release of the album and the last date of the tour!? LOLOLOL

[elle]

I honestly forget I'm a mod. What's to mod? You people all say the same things Over and Over again.

lol. i was really tempted to quote over and over the other day, in one of the threads here.

[jbrownsjr]

lol. i was really tempted to quote over and over the other day, in one of the threads here.

There's no stopping you! :lol:

[BigAl84]

I didn't see it until much much later. But, Lindsey lost a lot of power by leaving in 1987. He showed mgmt:

1. Lindsey could be replaced and they could successfully tour with Stevie and Christine. I think the Vito/Burnette line up lost steam because they didn't want to do it anymore. (1990) But, in 2018 they only need one tour. Why? THEY OLD!!!

2. He stuck it to the band (1987) and the people that make money from them. I don't think they ever forgot that. Doesn't matter if his own personal choice was justified by Mick and Stevie's horrible behavior. You have to show up in that business. You can't just quit. Nobody will ever trust you again.

I also believe Christine lost a lot of power and confidence after her 15 yr absence. Leaving had weakened both of them. Christine cost them a lot of money during The Dance. They could have sold out Europe. And meanwhile, Stevie is building her power and mgmt to the level that her assistant has just as much say as a band member.

So in 2002, when Lindsey is trying to create with his new found 4 piece and write and produce FM, he can no longer get them to buy into making "art".
He can't convince them to flip the industry on its head and make a double album. Heck, he can't even get Stevie to write with him. She came in with her songs, did her parts, wanted creative control of her work, and boom she was gone until the tour.

She then later complained - probably I'm guessing because - the album didn't do well. They even put out a deluxe package with the extra tracks and that had to cost a lot.

He kind of opened the door for them to axe him. He knew she was a egomaniac. And Mick was not going to protect him. (as you can see in the documentary). And then in 2018, Mick again went with what Carl, or Irving or anyone else holding the wallet wanted.

Period.

Lindsey should have watched his back way more. Judging by all of his sentiment expressed in the lawsuit, I think he was misguided in thinking that the era of hardball band politics was over. He viewed them as extended family that may often disagree, but would always have each others back. I think his uncomfortable relationship with Irving was a wake up call, but it was already too late. I’m not sure he saw Mick’s willingness to be completely spineless coming a mile a way like the rest of us did. I also don’t think he expected Stevie to be so reluctant to record when Christine returned. It ultimately seemed like Christine’s return caused a new level of band politics to surface in a way that was much different than all the prior years without Christine. There was huge dollars associated with Christine’s return and the pressure was on.

[SteveMacD]

What I meant was that if the album didn't hit #1, Stevie would be devastated. She was when In Your Dreams hit #6. Stevie was really hot in 2014 and even with that and the TV appearances, 24KG hit #7

I think it’s even simpler than that. She hasn’t had a song that’s connected with the masses in over 30 years. Her newer AHS fans love her persona and the music that made her relevant. A new album will most likely hurt her image and not attract new fans.

Similarly, a Fleetwood Mac album would have risked her being seen as the inferior writer in the band, which would have been the case. And, it would have been the case whether Lindsey was in the band or if Neil and Mike were in the band.

[SteveMacD]

Or you know maybe he stuck to the duet script as a way to give Stevie an out instead of constantly putting her in the hot seat. I know painting Lindsey as the biggest jerk in the world is a favorite pasttime, but perhaps it was a moment of grace instead of lying for the big machine.
LOL! Sure, that’s not a CBS level lie.

[SteveMacD]

I didn't see it until much much later. But, Lindsey lost a lot of power by leaving in 1987. He showed mgmt:

1. Lindsey could be replaced and they could successfully tour with Stevie and Christine. I think the Vito/Burnette line up lost steam because they didn't want to do it anymore. (1990) But, in 2018 they only need one tour. Why? THEY OLD!!!

2. He stuck it to the band (1987) and the people that make money from them. I don't think they ever forgot that. Doesn't matter if his own personal choice was justified by Mick and Stevie's horrible behavior. You have to show up in that business. You can't just quit. Nobody will ever trust you again.

I also believe Christine lost a lot of power and confidence after her 15 yr absence. Leaving had weakened both of them. Christine cost them a lot of money during The Dance. They could have sold out Europe. And meanwhile, Stevie is building her power and mgmt to the level that her assistant has just as much say as a band member. (Leaving weakened her too). But she got back to busine$$.

So in 2002, when Lindsey is trying to create with his new found 4 piece and write and produce FM, he can no longer get them to buy into making "art".
He can't convince them to flip the industry on its head and make a double album. Heck, he can't even get Stevie to write with him. She came in with her songs, did her parts, wanted creative control of her work, and boom she was gone until the tour.

She then later complained - probably I'm guessing because - the album didn't do well. They even put out a deluxe package with the extra tracks and that had to cost a lot.

He kind of opened the door for them to axe him. He knew she was a egomaniac. And Mick was not going to protect him. (as you can see in the documentary). And then in 2018, Mick again went with what Carl, or Irving or anyone else holding the wallet wanted.

Period.

Three studio albums and 87 tour dates in 21 years during prime years of his career made him largely irrelevant to a generation and killed whatever power he might have had.

At least Christine had the advantage of her association with Fleetwood Mac since the very beginning and having had the lion’s share of the band’s hits.

[HomerMcvie]

Team Fleetwood Mac yet complacent with what took place in 2017/2018? That's always a head scratcher for me.

He supports his queen no matter her actions. We hold her accountable. THAT'S the difference.

[aleuzzi]

I didn't see it until much much later. But, Lindsey lost a lot of power by leaving in 1987. He showed mgmt:

1. Lindsey could be replaced and they could successfully tour with Stevie and Christine. I think the Vito/Burnette line up lost steam because they didn't want to do it anymore. (1990) But, in 2018 they only need one tour. Why? THEY OLD!!!

2. He stuck it to the band (1987) and the people that make money from them. I don't think they ever forgot that. Doesn't matter if his own personal choice was justified by Mick and Stevie's horrible behavior. You have to show up in that business. You can't just quit. Nobody will ever trust you again.

I also believe Christine lost a lot of power and confidence after her 15 yr absence. Leaving had weakened both of them. Christine cost them a lot of money during The Dance. They could have sold out Europe. And meanwhile, Stevie is building her power and mgmt to the level that her assistant has just as much say as a band member. (Leaving weakened her too). But she got back to busine$$.

So in 2002, when Lindsey is trying to create with his new found 4 piece and write and produce FM, he can no longer get them to buy into making "art".
He can't convince them to flip the industry on its head and make a double album. Heck, he can't even get Stevie to write with him. She came in with her songs, did her parts, wanted creative control of her work, and boom she was gone until the tour.

She then later complained - probably I'm guessing because - the album didn't do well. They even put out a deluxe package with the extra tracks and that had to cost a lot.

He kind of opened the door for them to axe him. He knew she was a egomaniac. And Mick was not going to protect him. (as you can see in the documentary). And then in 2018, Mick again went with what Carl, or Irving or anyone else holding the wallet wanted.

Period.

Lindsey’s weapon has always been critical recognition and wide respect of rock-n-roll peers. In the late 80s Henley cited Lindsey as a great producer and player. Clapton used him to produce a song on BEHIND THE SUN. The critics loved most of his quirky, often boutiquey albums. And no matter who replaced him, Christine always cited him as the best for the band.

This was not enough.

RUMOURS and FLEETWOOD MAC turned the band into money-making stars. Once the other four got a taste of the good life, they were zeroed in on staying commercially viable. Once Stevie’s solo debut became the fifth best selling album of 1981, she was the band’s main route to guaranteed success. Fleetwood Mac’s weapon became their mass appeal—and Lindsey’s creative attempts to undermine that were getting in the way...so to speak. At the same time, they couldn’t reach their commercial heights (on record) or turn in explosive shows (on tour) without him.

The band’s decision to fire him may have seemed like a safe calculation (ie: people will still come to see “the girls”) but it did serious damage to their legacy. About as much damage as Stevie not choosing to record that last album with them, something that would have put a beautiful bow on top of the whole FM package. In hindsight, it’s clear she was plotting LB’s firing even before BuckVie went on tour. As long as their collaboration was not a Fleetwood Mac album, there was no danger of the band needing to tour a hit record with LB. As long as FM simply did greatest hits tours, they could replace him, albeit with dubious results.

[cbBen]

Did Lindsey give a damn about the band’s legacy when he quit 56 days before opening night?

The band was defunct after January 1, 1996.

1996 was a reboot. Rumours members only. That limitation on membership lasted over 20 years. Lindsey's firing destroyed the legacy of the rebooted band.

Lindsey very much gave a damn about that band's legacy.

As for his leaving in '87, he was surrounded by children drinking and doing drugs. He wanted to grow up, which necessitated getting away from that scene.

[DownOnRodeo]

Lindsey very much gave a damn about that band's legacy.

As for his leaving in '87, he was surrounded by children drinking and doing drugs. He wanted to grow up, which necessitated getting away from that scene.

Yes. And despite all the bs during the recording stage as well, he never quit on the album itself.

[BigAl84]

LindseyÂ’s weapon has always been critical recognition and wide respect of rock-n-roll peers. In the late 80s Henley cited Lindsey as a great producer and player. Clapton used him to produce a song on BEHIND THE SUN. The critics loved most of his quirky, often boutiquey albums. And no matter who replaced him, Christine always cited him as the best for the band.

This was not enough.

RUMOURS and FLEETWOOD MAC turned the band into money-making stars. Once the other four got a taste of the good life, they were zeroed in on staying commercially viable. Once Stevie’s solo debut became the fifth best selling album of 1981, she was the band’s main route to guaranteed success. Fleetwood Mac’s weapon became their mass appeal—and Lindsey’s creative attempts to undermine that were getting in the way...so to speak. At the same time, they couldn’t reach their commercial heights (on record) or turn in explosive shows (on tour) without him.

The band’s decision to fire him may have seemed like a safe calculation (ie: people will still come to see “the girls”) but it did serious damage to their legacy. About as much damage as Stevie not choosing to record that last album with them, something that would have put a beautiful bow on top of the whole FM package. In hindsight, it’s clear she was plotting LB’s firing even before BuckVie went on tour. As long as their collaboration was not a Fleetwood Mac album, there was no danger of the band needing to tour a hit record with LB. As long as FM simply did greatest hits tours, they could replace him, albeit with dubious results.

I've always thought that it was the BuckVie project that really put the wheels in motion to axe Lindsey. In previous years all the material that Lindsey, Mick, and John had been working on remained shelved because they couldn't get Stevie onboard. That of course changed with the EP they did in 2013 and a few of those tracks saw the light.

When Christine returned, the public courting of Stevie started up for a second time. Lindsey spoke to the press on behalf of the band for the better part of two years while he was trying to get her to participate, to no avail. It was a major checkmate move to decide to release the album without Stevie. They played nice and flipped the narrative to the "It always felt like a duet album" to perhaps let Stevie off the hook or soften the blow. It was pretty laughable because they had spent the better part of the year+ making statements wishing/hoping she would join them. Additionally, Mick made some really nice remarks to the press about the work that had been completed. When the album was released, critics and the press never glossed over the fact that it was essentially a Fleetwood Mac album minus Stevie Nicks. The damage was done.

So in my eyes, the announcement of that album being released without Stevie was the beginning of the end. Stevie was already in full egomania mode, I think everyone was holding their breath wondering how this was going to go down.

[jbrownsjr]

The band was defunct after January 1, 1996.

1996 was a reboot. Rumours members only. That limitation on membership lasted over 20 years. Lindsey's firing destroyed the legacy of the rebooted band.

Lindsey very much gave a damn about that band's legacy.

As for his leaving in '87, he was surrounded by children drinking and doing drugs. He wanted to grow up, which necessitated getting away from that scene.

Very true. But, quitting (and I completely understand why) set a lot of wheels in motion. He should have never taken so long to put out his solo record. He took out his own legs out in exchange his sanity.

[BigAl84]

Very true. But, quitting (and I completely understand why) set a lot of wheels in motion. He should have never taken so long to put out his solo record. He took out his own legs out in exchange his sanity.

Yeah the biggest wheel that it set in motion was the fact that Steve Nicks could only show up for 6 weeks and the rest of the band would cover her a$$ to make sure she sounded good on the record. It proved that she had enough leverage in the band that she could half-a$$ it and the rest of the band would be forced to deal with it/fix it.

She threw tantrums about decisions that she decided to be absent for in the first place.

It didn't end when she got sober. The diva behavior continued with SYW. Leaving Lindsey on the hook to sequence SYW because she decided she needed to go on vacation. The list goes on....

In hindsight, he should have walked away from the tango sessions until Stevie and Mick got their sh*t together. Mick and Stevie would both throw him under the bus 30 years later anyways. Some friends they are.

[aleuzzi]

I've always thought that it was the BuckVie project that really put the wheels in motion to axe Lindsey. In previous years all the material that Lindsey, Mick, and John had been working on remained shelved because they couldn't get Stevie onboard. That of course changed with the EP they did in 2013 and a few of those tracks saw the light.

When Christine returned, the public courting of Stevie started up for a second time. Lindsey spoke to the press on behalf of the band for the better part of two years while he was trying to get her to participate, to no avail. It was a major checkmate move to decide to release the album without Stevie. They played nice and flipped the narrative to the "It always felt like a duet album" to perhaps let Stevie off the hook or soften the blow. It was pretty laughable because they had spent the better part of the year+ making statements wishing/hoping she would join them. Additionally, Mick made some really nice remarks to the press about the work that had been completed. When the album was released, critics and the press never glossed over the fact that it was essentially a Fleetwood Mac album minus Stevie Nicks. The damage was done.

So in my eyes, the announcement of that album being released without Stevie was the beginning of the end. Stevie was already in full egomania mode, I think everyone was holding their breath wondering how this was going to go down.

I think you’re right on about this.

[BigAl84]

I think you’re right on about this.

Not to mention all of the positive press around the album and tour, which had to have been more salt on the wound for Stevie.

[jbrownsjr]

BuckVie really cranked out a hot album for 1987. Nicks was nowhere to be found.

[cbBen]

Jeremy Spencer is on just one track of Then Play On and still considered a full band member.

The group could have said what Graham Nash eventually said about Daylight Again (a CSN album that was SN with Crosby tacked on at the end of the process, and contributing just one original song): "This combination/permutation (i.e. Stills-Nash) is the only one that has never been tried."

They could have said now that Christine has rejoined, we want to feature her prominently and see what a FM album sounds like produced by Lindsey and dominated by Christine.

Stevie could have said she liked and approved of the idea and it was perfect timing for it anyway given that she was busy with her 24 Karat Gold tour. Then she could have made a token appearance with a two songs and some backing vocals. She still has two good unused songs, no? If not she could just hand over her poetry book and tell Lindsey to draw a couple songs out of it, perhaps with Waddy Dave Stewart and Mike Campbell on hand to help put her words into music.

Point being she didn't need four songs. She didn't need to spend a lot of time in the studio. She could have said "Christine and Lindsey have something special. I didn't want to get in the way. I decided to hang back and let them dominate the show."

It would have made her look big, not small.

[jbrownsjr]

Jeremy Spencer is on just one track of Then Play On and still considered a full band member.

The group could have said what Graham Nash eventually said about Daylight Again (a CSN album that was SN with Crosby tacked on at the end of the process, and contributing just one original song): "This combination/permutation (i.e. Stills-Nash) is the only one that has never been tried."

They could have said now that Christine has rejoined, we want to feature her prominently and see what a FM album sounds like produced by Lindsey and dominated by Christine.

Stevie could have said she liked and approved of the idea and it was perfect timing for it anyway given that she was busy with her 24 Karat Gold tour. Then she could have made a token appearance with a two songs and some backing vocals. She still has two good unused songs, no? If not she could just hand over her poetry book and tell Lindsey to draw a couple songs out of it, perhaps with Waddy Dave Stewart and Mike Campbell on hand to help put her words into music.

Point being she didn't need four songs. She didn't need to spend a lot of time in the studio. She could have said "Christine and Lindsey have something special. I didn't want to get in the way. I decided to hang back and let them dominate the show."

It would have made her look big, not small.

I love this post. In a perfect world where everyone is dancing, spinning and singing with each other!