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PDB
12-09-2022, 03:21 PM
Maybe I'm an outlier here, but I much prefer the Mirage outtake of Smile At You to the Say You Will version. While the latter is more polished, it lacks the fire and energy of the outtake. However, the outtake is obviously incomplete - there were parts they hadn't filled out and figured out yet. Therefore to me neither version is ideal even though I prefer the older one.

In an attempt to 'fix' this, I created a 'single remix' that merges the best aspects of each - taking the basic track from the outtake and editing it down to be more like the Say You Will version, then adding the 'figured out' parts from the Say You Will version (mainly a bit of Lindsey's guitar, his vocals and the refrain') while keeping Christine's piano, the drums and bass, and adding some echo to Stevie's original vocal.
Macfan4life
12-09-2022, 05:30 PM
I agree and I bet most people on this board agree. They call the Mirage version the "angry" version. It just has more passion. It even sounds like the piano is angry. The band had such brilliant tracks that its sad this one ended up on the cutting room floor. Some say it might not have fit Mirage's "music box" theme. I say that was the reason to put it on the album. The album needed a raw moment here or there.
Stevie was at her vocal peak and we needed more!
jcalzaretta
12-16-2022, 09:44 PM
I was so excited when I first saw the track listing for Smile at You on Say You Will. I nearly cried in pain when I heard it. It lost everything it had on Mirage. I was very disappointed.
Macfan4life
12-17-2022, 03:58 AM
I was so excited when I first saw the track listing for Smile at You on Say You Will. I nearly cried in pain when I heard it. It lost everything it had on Mirage. I was very disappointed.
Yes but finally it was put on an album and released. I still like the SYW version. Without SYW the song may have never seen the light of day.
cbBen
12-17-2022, 12:27 PM
Yes but finally it was put on an album and released. I still like the SYW version. Without SYW the song may have never seen the light of day.

Agreed. I like it too. Skip the weak songs (remember the album is 18 songs) and Say You Will is solid.
HomerMcvie
12-17-2022, 02:03 PM
Agreed. I like it too. Skip the weak songs (remember the album is 18 songs) and Say You Will is solid.

I'm certain that's what the producer was planning.

"Hey guys, they'll skip the sh*tty songs, so let's put out this bloated turd as it is".:lol:
Macfan4life
12-17-2022, 02:52 PM
I'm certain that's what the producer was planning.

"Hey guys, they'll skip the sh*tty songs, so let's put out this bloated turd as it is".:lol:
As long as there was room for Silver Girl we are good.
HomerMcvie
12-17-2022, 04:22 PM
As long as there was room for Silver Girl we are good.

And Come, and Murrow, and Illume.
Macfan4life
12-17-2022, 04:54 PM
And Come, and Murrow, and Illume.
I know. Lindsey's intense playing on those songs offends you.
Hold up your lighter to Landslide and sing along Mike.
HomerMcvie
12-17-2022, 07:02 PM
I know. Lindsey's intense playing on those songs offends you.
Hold up your lighter to Landslide and sing along Mike.
I've always been bothered by hideous noise. Come, mass genocide, and your voice.
Macfan4life
12-17-2022, 07:17 PM
I've always been bothered by hideous noise. Come, mass genocide, and your voice.
I'll follow you down to the sound of my voice will haunt you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0DK-0fIKCw
HomerMcvie
12-17-2022, 07:23 PM
I'll follow you down to the sound of my voice will haunt you.

Well it's a little too late for that. That ship has sailed.:woohoo:
SteveMacD
12-18-2022, 02:02 AM
Stevie's angry vocals on the Mirage outtakes version of "Smile At You" was no match for John's unreal playing on SYW, complimented by Lindsey's more rhythmic playing.
Macfan4life
12-18-2022, 05:02 AM
Stevie's angry vocals on the Mirage outtakes version of "Smile At You" was no match for John's unreal playing on SYW, complimented by Lindsey's more rhythmic playing.
I agree. The SYW version is much more polished. But the rawness and power vocal of the Mirage track makes me like it more. The piano is more simple compared to the SYW track. But that lends to the raw emotion of the song. Its still great that the song made it to an album. It should have been on Tango.
cbBen
12-18-2022, 07:11 AM
Its still great that the song made it to an album. It should have been on Tango.

Indeed. I don't know whether it was social politics or what (though that didn't seem to stop them from reaching back to "That's Alright" for Mirage) but, instead of "Welcome To The Room...Sara" and "When I See You Again," the band should have found a diplomatic way to tell Stevie that she had other "more Mac-like" songs they'd prefer, such as "Smile At You" and perhaps "Destiny Rules" or "Running Through The Garden." Maybe they did and she insisted, but her stated policy was that the band had first dibs on her songs (maybe she'd changed that policy by this point, but she didn't use any of the above songs on her following three solo albums).
blinker12
12-18-2022, 08:57 AM
Did the original poster mean to include a link to the remix they created? I’d like to hear it!

I think my favorite versions of the song are the Tusk outtakes. Stevie’s not quite as angry as on Mirage, but her vocals have more range and the band sounds tighter.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DDxGuIH_WVU&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
Macfan4life
12-18-2022, 09:11 AM
Indeed. I don't know whether it was social politics or what (though that didn't seem to stop them from reaching back to "That's Alright" for Mirage) but, instead of "Welcome To The Room...Sara" and "When I See You Again," the band should have found a diplomatic way to tell Stevie that she had other "more Mac-like" songs they'd prefer, such as "Smile At You" and perhaps "Destiny Rules" or "Running Through The Garden." Maybe they did and she insisted, but her stated policy was that the band had first dibs on her songs (maybe she'd changed that policy by this point, but she didn't use any of the above songs on her following three solo albums).
My guess is that Stevie wanted to feel relevant. Digging up old songs could have made her feel washed up. All her Tango songs were recently written. But you are correct, Tango would have been so much better with any version of Smile At You and Running Through The Garden.
jcalzaretta
12-18-2022, 11:04 AM
I did not care for - I should have turned away and ran....ah ah. as fast as I can. I thought it lost some meaning the way it was done.
UnwindedDreams
12-18-2022, 11:12 AM
Tom Moncrieff is on guitar in the Smile At You demos, right?
SteveMacD
12-18-2022, 01:56 PM
I think Stevie was trying to be profound about her rehab on TITN.

That said, WISYA would have been better served as a mid-tempo song a-la “If Anyone Falls.” WTTRS and WISYA weren’t great songs, but Lindsey’s production style further hurt them.
PDB
12-19-2022, 02:40 PM
Did the original poster mean to include a link to the remix they created? I’d like to hear it!


I have not shared a link yet. I apologize for the delay. I am really proud of it and want to share it, but copyright concerns prevent me from sharing it broadly. I'm looking into options like doing a small listening party with a few folks where you can hear it but not download it and it wouldn't be a public performance.
jbrownsjr
12-20-2022, 09:32 AM
I think Stevie was trying to be profound about her rehab on TITN.

That said, WISYA would have been better served as a mid-tempo song a-la “If Anyone Falls.” WTTRS and WISYA weren’t great songs, but Lindsey’s production style further hurt them.

Are there demo's of the WISYA? Because I felt like he saved these songs.

I don't mind either one of them. (Most people hate them.) But I can't imagine LB made these any worse than they were.

I love the guitar, back ground vocals, Christine's contributions etc. I actually like the sound of the drums on WTTRS. Kind of a Hugh Padgham feel. Now, I haven't really heard the demo's. So my opinion may be voided if there are demo's floating out there. But usually, her voice on a demo tends to make me nervous.
SteveMacD
12-20-2022, 01:43 PM
Are there demo's of the WISYA? Because I felt like he saved these songs.

I don't mind either one of them. (Most people hate them.) But I can't imagine LB made these any worse than they were.

I love the guitar, back ground vocals, Christine's contributions etc. I actually like the sound of the drums on WTTRS. Kind of a Hugh Padgham feel. Now, I haven't really heard the demo's. So my opinion may be voided if there are demo's floating out there. But usually, her voice on a demo tends to make me nervous.

Here’s WTTRS
https://youtu.be/lbRiaQd76R0
Macfan4life
12-20-2022, 02:00 PM
Are there demo's of the WISYA? Because I felt like he saved these songs.

I don't mind either one of them. (Most people hate them.) But I can't imagine LB made these any worse than they were.

I love the guitar, back ground vocals, Christine's contributions etc. I actually like the sound of the drums on WTTRS. Kind of a Hugh Padgham feel. Now, I haven't really heard the demo's. So my opinion may be voided if there are demo's floating out there. But usually, her voice on a demo always makes me nervous.
I dont think Lindsey had much time to spend on her demos. He probably did not care either. Her demos are better on songs like WTTRS and even the Dance's Sweet Girl. He kept both songs similar to the demo and the final track had less passion than the demo. Sweet Girl is a live track so maybe my judgment is not fair on that one.
jbrownsjr
12-20-2022, 04:01 PM
Here’s WTTRS
https://youtu.be/lbRiaQd76R0

Ok, it's subjective of course. But, I think he made it slightly better. Lord, this gets worse as it goes on. But, it could be even better with more time. Her howling is the usual nails on a chalkboard voice.

The song is kind of a turd. Imagine if they tried to release this has a hit.
SteveMacD
12-20-2022, 04:49 PM
Ok, it's subjective of course. But, I think he made it slightly better. Lord, this gets worse as it goes on. But, it could be even better with more time. Her howling is the usual nails on a chalkboard voice.

The song is kind of a turd. Imagine if they tried to release this has a hit.

I think his vocal arrangement was better, but I like the more driving tempo and the synth on the demo. I agree about her voice on either version, but I think Lindsey could have kept the elements that actually worked on the demo.
Macfan4life
12-20-2022, 05:38 PM
I think his vocal arrangement was better, but I like the more driving tempo and the synth on the demo. I agree about her voice on either version, but I think Lindsey could have kept the elements that actually worked on the demo.
I agree. The demo is better. Its not a great song but the demo is better. But that's not saying much. However its a fairly clear demo. Many demos from Stevie around this time are a howling mess.
jbrownsjr
12-20-2022, 05:58 PM
I think his vocal arrangement was better, but I like the more driving tempo and the synth on the demo. I agree about her voice on either version, but I think Lindsey could have kept the elements that actually worked on the demo.

I do like the synth in the demo (I get your If Anyone Falls ref, now)
And I agree, you can't make that vocal arrangement any worse!! :lol:

So, not giving LB lots of credit here. But that demo beside a few cool elements is garbage. The temp on Tango drags the song and this awful demo points that out.

Btw, ChiliD once jokingly said he would de-friend me because I defended WTTRS.
HomerMcvie
12-21-2022, 02:07 AM
Btw, ChiliD once jokingly said he would de-friend me because I defended WTTRS.

That Chili was something special. He left for a while, then came back and said(I'm paraphrasing) "I see Homer is holding up the curmudgeon end of things here".

Indeed. :woohoo:
jbrownsjr
12-21-2022, 08:39 AM
That Chili was something special. He left for a while, then came back and said(I'm paraphrasing) "I see Homer is holding up the curmudgeon end of things here".

Indeed. :woohoo:

I really miss him. He did not care if you had a different opinion. His knowledge was immense, and he often told me FM should have ended after the Tusk Tour. Mirage at the very latest. He also correctly hinted that Lindsey and Stevie would ruin FMac.
He had a great running order for Tusk, which actually changed over the years. He loved Rick Vito's guitar more than LB. He loved the extra tracks on BTM.
DownOnRodeo
12-22-2022, 09:16 AM
Someone needs to create a mashup of one of the angry piano demos and the funky SYW version. Knowing the demos with their iconic piano sound ruined the SYW version for me before it had a chance.
jbrownsjr
12-22-2022, 10:03 AM
Someone needs to create a mashup of one of the angry piano demos and the funky SYW version. Knowing the demos with their iconic piano sound ruined the SYW version for me before it had a chance.

Agree. Love the piano.
PDB
12-26-2022, 02:18 PM
Someone needs to create a mashup of one of the angry piano demos and the funky SYW version. Knowing the demos with their iconic piano sound ruined the SYW version for me before it had a chance.

That's kinda what I did -- I kept the drum, piano and lead vocals of the angry demo (with some reverb added to the vocals) and layered on some of Lindsey's guitar parts from the SYW version then took the chorus vocals of the SYW version ("I should have turned away and ran / fast as I can") and put them on top of the empty chorus (with piano) of the angry version, then made a few select other edits to make it flow more like the SYW version. It sounds very full and complete when you put them together.