'Mirage' album discussion podcast

[JeremyGloff]

Hey all,

For anyone interested here is our 'Mirage' discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjeZu4bna2E

I love reading everyone's comments after I post these - it's so interesting how different things speak to different people. :)

[bwboy]

I haven’t had a chance to watch it yet, but I wanted to ask if you intend to cover Behind the Mask. I figure you’re covering the FM albums in order, so Tango will likely be next, but I hope you’ll be doing BTM as well.

Also, have you considered covering Enchanted, only skipping the songs that appeared on her previous albums? That way you wouldn’t be covering old ground, yet still be discussing some of her other classics, like Blue Lamp, Whenever I Call You Friend, Sleeping Angel, etc. just something to think about. Thanks for entertaining us with these album discussions!

[HomerMcvie]

I haven’t had a chance to watch it yet, but I wanted to ask if you intend to cover Behind the Mask. I figure you’re covering the FM albums in order, so Tango will likely be next, but I hope you’ll be doing BTM as well.

Also, have you considered covering Enchanted, only skipping the songs that appeared on her previous albums? That way you wouldn’t be covering old ground, yet still be discussing some of her other classics, like Blue Lamp, Whenever I Call You Friend, Sleeping Angel, etc. just something to think about. Thanks for entertaining us with these album discussions!

Your $tevie slip is showing....;):woohoo::wavey:

[bwboy]

Your $tevie slip is showing....;):woohoo::wavey:

I don’t wear slips… I go bare :laugh:

Jeremy and the crew only do Stevie material, which is why I suggested Enchanted. But I’d watch if they did Christine’s or Lindsey’s albums (well, at least two of his albums, anyway).

[JeremyGloff]

Hey!! I LOVE "Behind The Mask" so that's definitely in the line-up. "Time" will be a skip :P

I think we did cover the "Enchanted" songs on the last Stevie episode that went through the comps and live albums!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETltiLHRLAc&t=2s

I love Christine as much as Stevie - so one day I'd love to tackle her three solo albums. I have all of Lindsey's solo albums but only really know "Law And Order" and "Go Insane" - I know everyone looks at "Out Of The Cradle" as a masterpiece but it never grabbed me. I'll try again one day and maybe it will.

I'm a huge fan of the pre-BN stuff - huge Danny Kirwan fan - I actually love his three solo albums too - especially "Second Chapter" - but "Midnight In San Juan" had some really really great songs too.

I love Bob Welch's first solo album too and love every album he did with the Mac.

[DownOnRodeo]

Thanks for the video, Jeremy and collaborators. I have only seen half so far but it's a fun listen as usual.

[bwboy]

Very entertaining discussion, as usual. I was very happy to hear Roland mention how good Straight Back was on the Fleetwood Mac tribute cd- a band called Washed Up performed it and it is incredible! I was actually hoping someone would mention it because it’s that good.

I also agree with Jeremy that Eyes of the World might have been a good single. One thing about Eyes of the World- it really sounds so much like Second Hand News, and I would say Lindsey agrees, because not only has he never sang those songs on the same tour, but for one tour he replaced Eyes of the World WITH Second Hand News. I love both songs, so I don’t mind the similarities at all.

Nice to see Book of Love and Love in Store get some, well, love. Both are very catchy tunes.

[UnwindedDreams]

I also agree with Jeremy that Eyes of the World might have been a good single. One thing about Eyes of the World- it really sounds so much like Second Hand News, and I would say Lindsey agrees, because not only has he never sang those songs on the same tour, but for one tour he replaced Eyes of the World WITH Second Hand News.
Is it the drumming that's the same?

Eyes of the World and Second Hand News were played in the same set on the Say You Will Tour and Live 2013.

[bwboy]

Is it the drumming that's the same?

Eyes of the World and Second Hand News were played in the same set on the Say You Will Tour and Live 2013.

You’re right- when I saw them on opening night of that tour, they didn’t perform Second Hand News, just Eyes of the World. The next night, they added SHN. However, halfway through the tour or so, they dropped Eyes of the World and replaced it with I Know I’m Not Wrong, a song I also think is similar to the other two.

It’s not that I think that Second Hand News and Eyes of the World just sound alike, more that they are similar in mood and execution, with the guitar playing and background vocals- whatever they’re singing after the chorus of SHN “bown bown bown” is similar to EYES “ooh ooh ooh.” The structures of the songs are very much similar, both very upbeat. I like them both a lot, but I don’t know that both belong on the same set list. But I’ve said that for years about Gold Dust Woman and Rhiannon, so what do I know.

Just to be clear, I love Second Hand News, Eyes of the World, and I Know I’m Not Wrong- I just think their structures are very similar to each other, especially with what they sing after each chorus.

[UnwindedDreams]

You’re right- when I saw them on opening night of that tour, they didn’t perform Second Hand News, just Eyes of the World. The next night, they added SHN. However, halfway through the tour or so, they dropped Eyes of the World and replaced it with I Know I’m Not Wrong, a song I also think is similar to the other two.

I like Eyes of the World live so much more than the album version.
They actually replaced Eyes with I Know I'm Not Wrong and Gypsy with Sara a year after the tour started. I think IKINW had never been played on tour before and Sara at that time hadn't been played since Tango Tour?

[Macfan4life]

I like Eyes of the World live so much more than the album version.
They actually replaced Eyes with I Know I'm Not Wrong and Gypsy with Sara a year after the tour started. I think IKINW had never been played on tour before and Sara at that time hadn't been played since Tango Tour?
And unfortunately Sara was only played in Europe in 1988. There has never been a recording produced either I dont think. I always wanted to hear Sara with Rick and Billy. When I saw it in the setlist in Europe I was floored!

Edit: I checked the setlists and Sara was only played in a few stops. Birmingham and Scotland and half of the Wembley Arena shows.

[jmn3]

And unfortunately Sara was only played in Europe in 1988. There has never been a recording produced either I dont think. I always wanted to hear Sara with Rick and Billy. When I saw it in the setlist in Europe I was floored!

Edit: I checked the setlists and Sara was only played in a few stops. Birmingham and Scotland and half of the Wembley Arena shows.

The Dance tour also had Eyes played the very first night and then changed with SHN for the second show - to remain there for the rest of the tour.

I think those SYW Tour changes with IKINW and Sara happened with the 2004 leg. They changed the set up a bit when they came back to the US. Don’t Let Me Down Again got a one off appearance and Lindsey threw Red Rover in as well.

I’m pretty sure Sara was played throughout the 1988 shows they did. I’ve heard exactly one recording and I think it was one of those radio broadcasts they used to do. I want to say from Germany but don’t hold me to that. Somewhere I have an external hard drive with all those old bootlegs that used to get shared on fmlegacy and a few other sites that I’ve long forgotten about!

Some of the records of set lists for Fleetwood Mac in the 1987-90 years have been wonky on the internet for decades. I’ve seen sets claiming Go Your Own Way was not played which seems incredibly unlikely. And of course my favorite is the whackadoo claim that some dope put out there that they opened a 1990 show in New Jersey with Sara. That never happened - there’s literally zero chance. I think setlist.fm continues to perpetuate this and I swear this came from some alt.music.Fleetwood-Mac post without any credibility or backup and was accepted as fact.

[Macfan4life]

The Dance tour also had Eyes played the very first night and then changed with SHN for the second show - to remain there for the rest of the tour.

I think those SYW Tour changes with IKINW and Sara happened with the 2004 leg. They changed the set up a bit when they came back to the US. Don’t Let Me Down Again got a one off appearance and Lindsey threw Red Rover in as well.

I’m pretty sure Sara was played throughout the 1988 shows they did. I’ve heard exactly one recording and I think it was one of those radio broadcasts they used to do. I want to say from Germany but don’t hold me to that. Somewhere I have an external hard drive with all those old bootlegs that used to get shared on fmlegacy and a few other sites that I’ve long forgotten about!

Some of the records of set lists for Fleetwood Mac in the 1987-90 years have been wonky on the internet for decades. I’ve seen sets claiming Go Your Own Way was not played which seems incredibly unlikely. And of course my favorite is the whackadoo claim that some dope put out there that they opened a 1990 show in New Jersey with Sara. That never happened - there’s literally zero chance. I think setlist.fm continues to perpetuate this and I swear this came from some alt.music.Fleetwood-Mac post without any credibility or backup and was accepted as fact.
Yes I remember the New Jersey urban legend. It was never on a setlist website but something reported online by a fan. That had traction until the show had a recording and setlist and found out that never happened. If they were going to throw Sara in a show, it would not be an opener.

[jmn3]

Yes I remember the New Jersey urban legend. It was never on a setlist website but something reported online by a fan. That had traction until the show had a recording and setlist and found out that never happened. If they were going to throw Sara in a show, it would not be an opener.

Exactly. It made no sense. And then just wrap up Sara and then go right back to The Chain and the normal set. Not sure where people get the idea to spread that type of nonsense.

[aleuzzi]

I also agree with Jeremy that Eyes of the World might have been a good single. One thing about Eyes of the World- it really sounds so much like Second Hand News, and I would say Lindsey agrees, because not only has he never sang those songs on the same tour, but for one tour he replaced Eyes of the World WITH Second Hand News. I love both songs, so I don’t mind the similarities at all.

Nice to see Book of Love and Love in Store get some, well, love. Both are very catchy tunes.

Interesting, I never noticed this until you mentioned it. Yes, those two songs are definitely working in the same idiom. Not identical twins but certainly siblings with similar features. As much as I love EOTW on the album, the live performance of it on the Mirage concert video is so much more exciting because the whole band is working together. You can hear Christine’s sparkling keyboards, Stevie’s raw and rowdy harmonies—it’s just so exciting. The studio version misses the opportunity to bring in the three-part harmonies. It’s another case of Lindsey’s desire to do a quasi-solo album within a FM record.

Love in Store is the perfect opener. Never has Stevie’s presence on a Christine song lifted the tune from pleasant to such incredible pop heights. The simple, effective guitar and the throbbing rhythm section make a perfect setting for this ditty. LIS has never gotten its due. Had it been a video, it likely would have made a more lasting impression.

I really wish the band had included its after-hours, bluesy rendition of Beauty and the Beast. As impressive as it is closing THE WILD HEART, the FM version taps into something earthier, an experience more connected to sex and the body. They should have dumped Oh Diane.

Each of the writers should have had four songs each. Would never happen in Lindsey world.

[HomerMcvie]

I think setlist.fm continues to perpetuate this and I swear this came from some alt.music.Fleetwood-Mac post without any credibility or backup and was accepted as fact.

Did you know that alt.music.FM. still exists? Well, somewhat? My ISP hasn't had newsgroups for.....well......longer than I care to admit! But here's what still exists.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.music.fleetwood-mac?pli=1

[HomerMcvie]

Interesting, I never noticed this until you mentioned it. Yes, those two songs are definitely working in the same idiom. Not identical twins but certainly siblings with similar features. As much as I love EOTW on the album, the live performance of it on the Mirage concert video is so much more exciting because the whole band is working together. You can hear Christine’s sparkling keyboards, Stevie’s raw and rowdy harmonies—it’s just so exciting. The studio version misses the opportunity to bring in the three-part harmonies. It’s another case of Lindsey’s desire to do a quasi-solo album within a FM record.

Love in Store is the perfect opener. Never has Stevie’s presence on a Christine song lifted the tune from pleasant to such incredible pop heights. The simple, effective guitar and the throbbing rhythm section make a perfect setting for this ditty. LIS has never gotten its due. Had it been a video, it likely would have made a more lasting impression.

I really wish the band had included its after-hours, bluesy rendition of Beauty and the Beast. As impressive as it is closing THE WILD HEART, the FM version taps into something earthier, an experience more connected to sex and the body. They should have dumped Oh Diane.

Each of the writers should have had four songs each. Would never happen in Lindsey world.
I don't think they're even cousins. Maybe 3rd cousins, twice removed. A cousin Jerry Lee Lewis would marry... Yeah, they're both in the key of A. That's about it.

As many have mentioned over the years, LIS sounds like it's not finished. I LOVE it, but it's no Hold Me or Gypsy. Sounds like Lindsey got tired, and stopped a couple steps shy of masterpiece.

WH's B&B is the best. It still draws me back to that moment in time, and I can easily cry upon hearing it. When Stevie was still an artist.

You go with your strong suit. Lindsey's world made the right Ayatollah decisions. We wouldn't still be talking about them when they're 100, if he hadn't. They OWE him, BIG TIME. Especially the old goat...

[aleuzzi]

I don't think they're even cousins. Maybe 3rd cousins, twice removed. A cousin Jerry Lee Lewis would marry... Yeah, they're both in the key of A. That's about it.

As many have mentioned over the years, LIS sounds like it's not finished. I LOVE it, but it's no Hold Me or Gypsy. Sounds like Lindsey got tired, and stopped a couple steps shy of masterpiece.

WH's B&B is the best. It still draws me back to that moment in time, and I can easily cry upon hearing it. When Stevie was still an artist.

You go with your strong suit. Lindsey's world made the right Ayatollah decisions. We wouldn't still be talking about them when they're 100, if he hadn't. They OWE him, BIG TIME. Especially the old goat...

It’s the “unifinished-ness” of Love In Store that appeals to me. It still has that spontaneous, live-in-studio feel, even if that isn’t the case. Compared to the impeccable, intricate arrangements on Can’t Go Back, Hold Me, or Gypsy, Love In Store sounds like an impromptu declaration of infatuation. I feel it. I really do. I wouldn’t if it were more polished.

But Lindsey appears to have gotten lazy with a handful of tunes on Mirage. That’s Alright and Straight Back are good songs, but their arrangements are fairly unimaginative. Oh Diane lacks a quirky production touch—at least I think so. Or maybe Lindsey wasn’t allowed to carry these tunes further. Mick mentions “semi-tense” discussions during the sessions re: the direction the music should take. Lindsey wanted a 1950s, Eddie Cochrane vibe; the rest of the band wanted more classic Rumours…

[Macfan4life]

I finally got around to watching and listening to this all day yesterday. As usual I really enjoyed it. Its fun to listen to some that think just like you and would say what you say and then those who you fall out of your chair in disbelief in disagreement.
I was surprised at a few things. First I loved the love for Love In Store. That song does not get much love here but I have always loved it and was a reason I became a fan. I dont find it unfinished as some of you. Its a very short, almost trite wording song. In that way its similar to Think About Me. Its a quick very simple song but with many layers which makes it special. Its a great album opener. I applaud the panel for acknowledging this about the song. LIS is a song that is different than most any other Mac song with the harmonies. Its such a blushing love song. How anyone does not like this song is curious to me.
I was shocked at the panel almost calling Straight Back filler since most of the panel was Stevie fans. OMG Straight Back is one of my favorite Mac songs and one of the best of Mirage IMHO. Its not a classic song with verse, chorus, repeat. Its dreamy, and has such a brillant Mac sound that is so classic. I also LOVE Stevie songs where she throws her voice. Back then she could really do it. I am glad they went rock format because if you read the lyrics, I could see doing the song like Storms or something. Its a rocker and I love it. I dont understand the hate Wish You Were Here got either because I think its a great closer. Clearly Chris likes the song since she dug it out for Buck/Vie.
Jeremy is so funny singing Only Over You. I laughed out loud because his reason was the same for me never liking the song. If you can get past that first 3 seconds the song is fantastic otherwise and has some very clever playing.
That's Alright is a polished gem and there are so many variations of the song but the album version does it justice. I disagree with one of the panelists who thought Stevie was saving her songs for solo. This was a Buck/Nicks song that she thought should finally see the light of day. Like most of the panel I agree Smile At You should have been on the album. I see why it got the cut because its a very raw, angry, and emotional song while the rest of the album is more robotic. But IMHO that is the reason TO put it on the album. As Jeremy said the album has no peaks and valleys, its very consistent. But sometimes having peaks and valleys or another mood on the album here and there is a good thing. It could have given the album more depth. This is the one Mac album where giving Nicks another song would have been a plus. But with Bella Donna still riding high on the charts.....fat chance!
One thing we all agree on is what a masterpiece Gypsy is. I agree with Jeremy that it was an end to an era and this was Nick's last classic, epic song. It fits in the mold of Rhiannon, Landslide, Dreams, Gold Dust, Sara and Gypsy. I fell out of my chair when one panelist compared it to Seven Wonders :eek: I also agree that its a song that does not translate live like the magic studio cut. I would say the 1982 tour version is my favorite. The country feel fits the song fine. If you cant duplicate the sound, take it to another place.
I would add that Gypsy has the best bridge of any Mac song. I would also add that it could be one of the best bridges in rock history. Stevie's passion, intensity, and vocal range takes the song to another level during the bridge. This is why it falls flat live. She could still carry the bridge live in 1982 and probably could have done in in 1983 but she was too high to really care at that point.
Hold Me and Eyes of the World both brilliant. Glad Empire State got some love too. Mirage is sometimes almost a forgotten album from the band. Everyone knows earlier stuff but almost forgets about Mirage for some reason. IMHO it was the LAST album by these 5. IMHO Tango does not count because Stevie was not there and it was mostly a Lindsey solo album. Truly an end to an era.
Jeremy's jokes are so funny. I laughed out loud when they spoke of the haunted chateau and how the doors kept opening. Jeremy said it was Chris Nicks who kept coming in to ask to do the artwork. Everyone should go back and watch the Enchanted perspective video when he sings the bridge to Big Time Rock N Roll star. Fall out of the chair funny!
I will correct one thing and that was that Dennis Wilson died in late 1983 a year and half after Mirage's release. He got to hear the songs written and inspired by him. So it was not correct to say Chris was in grief during the recording of Mirage.

Great job again everyone. I would give the album a solid 8. If Smile At You was on it instead of Oh Diane, it would be a 9.

[bwboy]

Macfan4life you made a lot of interesting points. Spot on about how it feels when someone else points out something you’ve noticed, as well. It’s a cool feeling.

Straight Back is a quintessential Stevie song, so I also was surprised at some of the comments by the panel. I believe the quote that everyone was trying to remember Stevie saying was “I offer a bunch of songs to FM and they tend to pick the weird ones” or something to that effect. Straight Back and Gypsy fit that bill, so it’s a great surprise they included That’s Alright, which is much more of a straight forward country song. A nice counterpart to Gypsy and Straight Back. Macfan, I’ve been meaning to ask if you heard the version of Straight Back by Washed Out on the FM tribute album? They take it to a whole new level.

Love in Store, I think everyone here likes. Unfinished may not be the right word, but I know what they mean. It’s almost like an instrument is missing, or something like that. I still love it, though, and the harmonies are why FM is so good.

[Macfan4life]

Macfan4life you made a lot of interesting points. Spot on about how it feels when someone else points out something you’ve noticed, as well. It’s a cool feeling.

Straight Back is a quintessential Stevie song, so I also was surprised at some of the comments by the panel. I believe the quote that everyone was trying to remember Stevie saying was “I offer a bunch of songs to FM and they tend to pick the weird ones” or something to that effect. Straight Back and Gypsy fit that bill, so it’s a great surprise they included That’s Alright, which is much more of a straight forward country song. A nice counterpart to Gypsy and Straight Back. Macfan, I’ve been meaning to ask if you heard the version of Straight Back by Washed Out on the FM tribute album? They take it to a whole new level.

Love in Store, I think everyone here likes. Unfinished may not be the right word, but I know what they mean. It’s almost like an instrument is missing, or something like that. I still love it, though, and the harmonies are why FM is so good.
Straight Back is incredible. The bass, the keyboards, the drums, the acoustic guitar, electric guitar, the singing, the lyrics. It all comes together perfectly. Like Mac fashion on Mirage, the overdubs are very profound and some could say over done. What confuses people is the song does not really have a chorus. Neither does Gypsy. That confuses people who are always looking for that catchy chorus. Some of the best songs ever recorded dont have a chorus....Stairway to Heaven for example.

He remembers a melody
He remembers how good it can be

I cant help to think those lines are about Lindsey since most of what she wrote was about him.

What was mentioned about the meaning of the song is correct. Stevie wrote it being forced to go back to the Mac. The dream (her solo career) was not over. The dream is just away You fill fly like little wing back to the Sun (the Mac). The dream was not over. The dream has just begun. I think the song needed to go on Mirage no matter what. Chris backing Stevie on "wolf on the run" line always gives me goosebumps.

[jmn3]

Straight Back is incredible. The bass, the keyboards, the drums, the acoustic guitar, electric guitar, the singing, the lyrics. It all comes together perfectly. Like Mac fashion on Mirage, the overdubs are very profound and some could say over done. What confuses people is the song does not really have a chorus. Neither does Gypsy. That confuses people who are always looking for that catchy chorus. Some of the best songs ever recorded dont have a chorus....Stairway to Heaven for example.

He remembers a melody
He remembers how good it can be

I cant help to think those lines are about Lindsey since most of what she wrote was about him.

What was mentioned about the meaning of the song is correct. Stevie wrote it being forced to go back to the Mac. The dream (her solo career) was not over. The dream is just away You fill fly like little wing back to the Sun (the Mac). The dream was not over. The dream has just begun. I think the song needed to go on Mirage no matter what. Chris backing Stevie on "wolf on the run" line always gives me goosebumps.

Straight Back is a great song and I wish they would’ve worked it out for that tour. Stevie was so on fire at that time. Her songs from 1975-83 (I struggle with some of the production on The Wild Heart) were incredible.

I would have also yeeted Empire State or Oh Diane right off the album for If You Were My Love and/or Smile at You. The versions of both of those that ultimately came out are trash in comparison to what they were sounding like for Mirage.

[jbrownsjr]

Straight Back is a favorite of mine! I love the keyboards and how we get more of a NicksVie feel. Feels like she and Christine worked on it a lot more than other tunes.

[bwboy]

Straight Back is a favorite of mine! I love the keyboards and how we get more of a NicksVie feel. Feels like she and Christine worked on it a lot more than other tunes.

Hmmm… all this talk about Mirage is making me want to listen to it again! Great point about Christine and Stevie working very well together.

[jbrownsjr]

Hmmm… all this talk about Mirage is making me want to listen to it again! Great point about Christine and Stevie working very well together.

I wish they had done more together. Watching "All Over Again" 2018 was a bright indication that they had good chemistry as much as anyone else in the band.

[David]

Straight Back is a great song and I wish they would’ve worked it out for that tour.

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpbWVVbJdWE

[dougl]

Very cool. Very NicksVie. Thanks David!

[jbrownsjr]

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpbWVVbJdWE

Holy crap! Fantastic!! Thank you, David. :nod:

[aleuzzi]

Holy crap! Fantastic!! Thank you, David. :nod:

I will echo John’s Holy Crap, David. This sounds hot. They should have done it on the tour.