View Full Version : Say You Will
I know I’m in a minority, but I like Say you will..
It grew on me and it was definitely a slow burner.
I often wonder why Stevie disliked the Album...
Was it the actual recording of it, (there is the infamous Bob Dylan argument)?
Was it the fact that it is a very long album?....it is about 3 songs too long.
Or what? Something more obscure?
Anyone got any real ideas....I know some of you more educated Ledgies will have some decent theories.
If this has been discussed before, please accept apologies.
Macfan4life
04-12-2020, 04:01 PM
I am with you that Say You Will is brilliant and Lindsey did an outstanding job. Stevie seems to jump on the bandwagon if something is not commercially successful. She stated that when she wrote Say You Will she thought instantly it would be a huge hit if she ever did write a hit. They spent so much time on the album and no doubt were disappointed in the sales and airplay. But there are many fans that think the same way if something is not commercially successful. Some of band's best music is the stuff that is not commercially popular.
I agree with Stevie the album could have been a bit shorter but hey.. the more material the better.
Here is why I love Say You Will:
Finally get the great Stevie songs Smile at you, Running through the Garden, and Thrown Down. Wow, she should have coughed them up earlier because these are some of her best written songs. Lindsey does them justice!!!
Illume is an outrageous poem about 9/11. How in the world do you put it to music. Buckingham shines with an angry growing musical orchestra that is so unpredictable that its confusing the first time you hear it. I think he captured the spirt and the unpredictability of 9/11 perfectly. Those that want pop songs can listen to Talk To Me instead.
Come. We get to hear Lindsey at extended play on an album. Nuff said
Everybody Finds Out - is a musical masterpiece and probably top 5 musical pieces from the Mac. The bass lines are out of this world. The percussion is a full orchestra. The music just builds and builds and then explodes. THIS should have been the first single off the album.
I don't think there are duds or any padding on this album. I love the opener, whats the world coming to.
Yes of course Christine would have been the icing on the cake but we cant change that.
This album gets flamed along with TOSOTM and Street Angel yet people will flock to songs on those albums as one of their favorites which is odd to me.
When this CD came out, I wore it out. I used to run down Ocean Drive every night with this CD playing. Gosh remember CD holders? Yeah, I was a bit old fashioned even for 2003 when digital music was coming out.
Its frustrating because Christine would have made the album so much better but she was not there.
As far as the album being too long...….I think Lindsey was very proud of all the songs and did not want to cut any. They all fit so WTH. IMHO Lindsey was just as creative as Tusk. I am not casting judgment but this is an album that I cant understand if you are a Mac fan how you cant appreciate this album. The music is so good even if you stripped all the vocals and singing.
The only song I don’t like that much is...Come..
It kind of just grates, not a fan.
So you think the main reason Stevie didn’t like it, is purely sales and finance.
The record didn’t sell too good, so didn’t make that much money...
Wow, I never thought that....
I’m not disagreeing it’s a very good point, but isn’t this supposed to be art..
Obviously not, and by 2003 it’s just money, money, money.
Well someone should tell her, that it’s a bloody good record and she should be proud...
I like it.
HomerMcvie
04-12-2020, 07:04 PM
I think the whole record is dark and depressing. There's no bounce to it.
Hmm, what(who) was missing?
I like Time better than SYW.
I know I’m in a minority, but I like Say you will..
It grew on me and it was definitely a slow burner.
I often wonder why Stevie disliked the Album...
Was it the actual recording of it, (there is the infamous Bob Dylan argument)?
Was it the fact that it is a very long album?....it is about 3 songs too long.
Or what? Something more obscure?
Anyone got any real ideas....I know some of you more educated Ledgies will have some decent theories.
If this has been discussed before, please accept apologies.
not sure whether you are in the minority. in general seems that people who rank Tusk high / #1 Mac album rank SYW extremely high too. there is some fantastic stuff on this album. Lindsey was on the top of his game as all around still-innovative songwriter.
The only song I don’t like that much is...Come..
It kind of just grates, not a fan.
.
haha see Come to me is the ultimate example of how fantastic Mac can be as a band going in different directions instead of resting on their past laurels. i love it, and live has been always amazing.
michelej1
04-12-2020, 11:41 PM
Yes I think you’ve covered it. Everyone could predict going in that the album was not going to sell, at that stage in their lives. But then when you put 18 songs on it you ruined whatever small chance it had of catching fire. Plus you open it with two Lindsey songs, neither of which would necessarily appeal to her, and you have a recipe for disaster in her mind. And the recording process was no fun. Besides, I think she missed having Christine’s tunes in there, to balance out the Red Rovers. They tried to substitute for Christine, of course, but it is no surprise that Stevie was unhappy from dream catcher to album sequencing.
I like the album. There are places where the running order is mindnumbing. Tragically, people have fallen into comas during the back to back horror of Silver Girl and RTTG. Still, I was thrilled to have it. I consider Miranda, Thrown Down and EFO among my favorite FM songs.
Macfan4life
04-13-2020, 06:07 AM
not sure whether you are in the minority. in general seems that people who rank Tusk high / #1 Mac album rank SYW extremely high too. there is some fantastic stuff on this album. Lindsey was on the top of his game as all around still-innovative songwriter.
We think alike but most in this forum rank Tusk the top or #2 of all time favorite and Say You Will gets very little love so I understand being in the "minority" on this one.
I agree. SYW is so Tusk like. Look how people are describing SYW.....cold and without a bounce or over-produced or under produced. Sound familiar?
Allume sounds like Stevie is singing into a tube in a bathroom. Sound familiar? Too many songs. Too long. Tracking is not right. Sound familiar?
This is why both of us agree that SYW is really Tusk 2 without Christine. Of course its more slick than Tusk being 1978/1979 vs 2003.
Having said all this. I have one question to all the comments on this thread.
Would any of you say any of this to Bob Dylan??
The great thing about these threads, it makes you go back and listen to them again.
So I’ve just watched...Come and then Say Goodbye, live from 2004.
Just fabulous, even though Come is not my favourite song,still fab..
mitzo
04-13-2020, 08:45 AM
To me this is actually Stevie's best solo album.
HomerMcvie
04-13-2020, 10:19 AM
The great thing about these threads, it makes you go back and listen to them again.
So I’ve just watched...Come and then Say Goodbye, live from 2004.
Just fabulous, even though Come is not my favourite song,still fab..
Come doesn't sound like a FM song.
I've told the story a million times, but I hadn't bought SYW yet when it came out(no Christine, so I wasn't in much of a rush). My cousin's roommate had bought the deluxe SYW and HATED it. She gave it to me. I asked her why she hated it so much. She said, "that Come song. It doesn't sound like FM. I can't stand it".
So at least Come got me a free deluxe SYW. :wavey: But it's just too "experimental hard rock" for me, too.
Count me as a fan of the album since the beginning. It is absolutely too long and some of the tracks are filler but I think it is a very solid later-day Fleetwood Mac album and certainly something that shouldn't have just been forgotten about. The running order is certainly a head scratcher in many spots. Pare it down to the list below and I'd like it more, although I'd reorder the songs and pick some different singles:
WTWCT
Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Running Through the Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
Bleed to Love Her
Everybody Finds Out
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby
Contrary to many, I love Running Through the Garden. I think it could have been a tour de force live if they would have done it more than once. Likewise, Everybody Finds Out should have replaced Stand Back in the set for Stevie's "fast" song.
Smile At You was a total disappointment in the form that it was released. Silver Girl should have been shot into the sun via cannon. Murrow and Red Rover are just not FM enough. Come, to me, is like I'm So Afraid. Amazing live, a real dud on the album. I hated his voice on that track, whereas live I thought it rocked hard. Illume never did anything for me - it just lacks the emotion I'd figure a song with 9-11 in the title would have.
lbfan
04-13-2020, 11:39 AM
Say You Will, to me, is Buckingham Nicks II. I only have Lindsey’s songs on my iPhone (and I am sure some only Stevie’s songs on their device).
sleepless child
04-13-2020, 11:58 AM
I loved this record too. But the song Say you will is not a fav of mine. One of the few Stevie songs I really don't like listening too. I love alot of Lindsey's stuff and Thrown Down and Destiny Rules are some of my fav songs on the album. The documentary looked as though everyone was enjoying doing the album except when it came to the mixing and the argument between Lindsey and Stevie. I think something on the road is what caused her dislike of the Say you will expeirence
I loved this record too. But the song Say you will is not a fav of mine. One of the few Stevie songs I really don't like listening too. I love alot of Lindsey's stuff and Thrown Down and Destiny Rules are some of my fav songs on the album. The documentary looked as though everyone was enjoying doing the album except when it came to the mixing and the argument between Lindsey and Stevie. I think something on the road is what caused her dislike of the Say you will expeirence
Say You Will (the song) was as clear an attempt at filling Christine's absence as anything. It's not a bad song per se, but it's middle of the road. Nothing special. It's not what people want or expect from Nicks in the context of Fleetwood Mac. It certainly wasn't a good single choice for Fleetwood Mac in 2003 and the fact that it was pimped at every concert on that tour over some far superior Stevie tracks from the album has always been beyond me.
cbBen
04-13-2020, 03:09 PM
Love the album, and will have more to say, but that Stevie or anyone else (record exec in Destiny Rules doc) thought "Say You Will" would be a hit is mind boggling.
It's so far from what a love song should be: "Girl begs boy to stick around at least long enough so she can change his mind." That's your archetypal love song? Are you kidding me? Boys chase girls or, if you want to turn the archetype on its head in an interesting way, girls chase boys. Girls don't beg boys to stick around so they can plead with them. That's a sort of mushy limbo, and not a hit love song in a million years.
The melody is pretty good but the lyrics are pretty weak. Had they brought in a lyricist to revise them into more of a classic story, then the song may have fared better.
They went so middle-of-the-road with the single choices. "Everybody Finds Out" might have been a hit. "Say You Will" and "Peacekeeper"?: not a chance.
Again, I will have more to say. I love Lindsey's production, and the album overall (though, yes, it is too long). I think she's great but on this one I don't miss Christine. It was a nice change of pace without her. I do think it would have turned out better with Lord-Alge mixing, but hindsight's 20/20.
Macfan4life
04-13-2020, 03:32 PM
Love the album, and will have more to say, but that Stevie or anyone else (record exec in Destiny Rules doc) thought "Say You Will" would be a hit is mind boggling.
It's so far from what a love song should be: "Girl begs boy to stick around at least long enough so she can change his mind." That's your archetypal love song? Are you kidding me? Boys chase girls or, if you want to turn the archetype on its head in an interesting way, girls chase boys. Girls don't beg boys to stick around so they can plead with them. That's a sort of mushy limbo, and not a hit love song in a million years.
The melody is pretty good but the lyrics are pretty weak. Had they brought in a lyricist to revise them into more of a classic story, then the song may have fared better.
They went so middle-of-the-road with the single choices. "Everybody Finds Out" might have been a hit. "Say You Will" and "Peacekeeper"?: not a chance.
Again, I will have more to say. I love Lindsey's production, and the album overall (though, yes, it is too long). I think she's great but on this one I don't miss Christine. It was a nice change of pace without her. I do think it would have turned out better with Lord-Alge mixing, but hindsight's 20/20.
Say you will is in my least favorite half of songs on the album but it still would have been better than Peacekeeper as the first single.
But one thing the Mac kept consistent is not letting Nicks ever have the first single off any album (even without Christine).
I catch the groove of Say You Will and I have a soft spot because it was written for or inspired for Christine. I just hate the ending.
bombaysaffires
04-13-2020, 04:31 PM
Love the album, and will have more to say, but that Stevie or anyone else (record exec in Destiny Rules doc) thought "Say You Will" would be a hit is mind boggling.
It's so far from what a love song should be: "Girl begs boy to stick around at least long enough so she can change his mind." That's your archetypal love song? Are you kidding me? Boys chase girls or, if you want to turn the archetype on its head in an interesting way, girls chase boys. Girls don't beg boys to stick around so they can plead with them. That's a sort of mushy limbo, and not a hit love song in a million years.
The melody is pretty good but the lyrics are pretty weak. Had they brought in a lyricist to revise them into more of a classic story, then the song may have fared better.
They went so middle-of-the-road with the single choices. "Everybody Finds Out" might have been a hit. "Say You Will" and "Peacekeeper"?: not a chance.
Again, I will have more to say. I love Lindsey's production, and the album overall (though, yes, it is too long). I think she's great but on this one I don't miss Christine. It was a nice change of pace without her. I do think it would have turned out better with Lord-Alge mixing, but hindsight's 20/20.
This has always been Lindsey's issue/gripe. It was certainly his concern for SYW which he talks about in the documentary. he knew the powers that be would pick the most conservative songs from all of the songs he could contribute and he'd have to fight for more experimental or just less conservative songs. But even then they'd pick the most conservative of those for singles. he was right.
Stevie herself has said, when talking about her solo career, that she's never been good at picking singles, at knowing which songs would make great singles. Jimmy sure was, and she relied on him and others (Fishkin, Danny Goldberg etc) to make those decisions. So she wouldn't be much help on that front.
HomerMcvie
04-13-2020, 05:15 PM
It's so far from what a love song should be: "Girl begs boy to stick around at least long enough so she can change his mind." That's your archetypal love song? Are you kidding me? Boys chase girls or, if you want to turn the archetype on its head in an interesting way, girls chase boys. Girls don't beg boys to stick around so they can plead with them. That's a sort of mushy limbo, and not a hit love song in a million years.
The melody is pretty good but the lyrics are pretty weak. Had they brought in a lyricist to revise them into more of a classic story, then the song may have fared better.
It is laden with cheesy lyrics.
Had they brought in a lyricist? Can you IMAGINE $tevie's response to that?
Ben, would you say that to Bob Dylan?:lol:
Macfan4life
04-13-2020, 05:43 PM
It is laden with cheesy lyrics.
Had they brought in a lyricist? Can you IMAGINE $tevie's response to that?
Ben, would you say that to Bob Dylan?:lol:
Now THAT would have made great TV and made the documentary so much better.
Could you imagine Lindsey:
Stevie, lets bring in a lyricist and change some of the lyrics.
She freaked out because he was trying to correct her constant changing tenses in songs.
She would have melted down
HomerMcvie
04-13-2020, 06:09 PM
Now THAT would have made great TV and made the documentary so much better.
Could you imagine Lindsey:
Stevie, lets bring in a lyricist and change some of the lyrics.
She freaked out because he was trying to correct her constant changing tenses in songs.
She would have melted down
$he's a poet. Just axe her. $he is so full of herself it makes me want to puke coat hangers.
I would have loved to have seen a larger meltdown, though.:angel::angel::angel:
aleuzzi
04-13-2020, 08:02 PM
A lot of people love SYW, especially the Buckingham-Nicks fans. I was initially hostile to the record’s existence. The thought of FM releasing new music without Christine was difficult to support. But when I did sit down and listen to it I was amazed at the abundance of high quality music on it. It’s not always even and I believe the middle of the sequence sags in comparison to the first five and last five songs. But that’s okay, too—because the writers were stretching out, giving it their all. Much of Stevie’s material is VERY STRONG. But some of my favorite moments come from Lindsey’s: Red Rover, Say Goodbye, Steal Your Heart Away. My favorite Stevie tunes here are: Throw Down, Illume, and Everybody Finds Out.
michelej1
04-13-2020, 11:43 PM
Love the album, and will have more to say, but that Stevie or anyone else (record exec in Destiny Rules doc) thought "Say You Will" would be a hit is mind boggling.
It's so far from what a love song should be: "Girl begs boy to stick around at least long enough so she can change his mind." That's your archetypal love song? Are you kidding me? Boys chase girls or, if you want to turn the archetype on its head in an interesting way, girls chase boys. Girls don't beg boys to stick around so they can plead with them. That's a sort of mushy limbo, and not a hit love song in a million years.
The melody is pretty good but the lyrics are pretty weak. Had they brought in a lyricist to revise them into more of a classic story, then the song may have fared better.
But if you are impersonating Christine, those are the lyrics you write because Christine writes lyrics like that, pleading to the man, begging to be deceived just a little longer, just to keep him. Stevie eschews Dutch sentiments. I remember when she did Reconsider Me she said that words like that were not really her thing.
michelej1
04-13-2020, 11:46 PM
This has always been Lindsey's issue/gripe. It was certainly his concern for SYW which he talks about in the documentary. he knew the powers that be would pick the most conservative songs from all of the songs he could contribute and he'd have to fight for more experimental or just less conservative songs. But even then they'd pick the most conservative of those for singles. he was right.
Trouble, Did You Miss Me. He knows how it goes.
And those pop concerns were why we got SYHA again.
michelej1
04-13-2020, 11:51 PM
$he's a poet. Just axe her. $he is so full of herself it makes me want to puke coat hangers.
I would have loved to have seen a larger meltdown, though.:angel::angel::angel:
Lindsey said that the first time he met her she shared some of her writing with him and considered herself a poet even then. Sixteen. He may have only smirked internally at that time.
Actually she was a great poet and was a great singer.
HomerMcvie
04-13-2020, 11:57 PM
Lindsey said that the first time he met her she shared some of her writing with him and considered herself a poet even then. Sixteen. He may have only smirked internally at that time.
Actually she was a great poet and was a great singer.
Well, she's definitely smirkworthy. I'm sure more so now than back then.
When did she earn his full blown smirks? Tusk era?
michelej1
04-14-2020, 01:32 AM
At what stage in a relationship does Lindsey’s desire to mock someone outweigh his desire to sleep with them?
Waddy said he tried to get Lindsey to come on the road with him where he could make real money. He implored Lindsey, told him not to spend his life working on Stevie’s the flower and the vine songs. Oh the irony.
Dragon
04-14-2020, 03:16 AM
I know I’m in a minority, but I like Say you will..
It grew on me and it was definitely a slow burner.
I often wonder why Stevie disliked the Album...
Was it the actual recording of it, (there is the infamous Bob Dylan argument)?
Was it the fact that it is a very long album?....it is about 3 songs too long.
Or what? Something more obscure?
Anyone got any real ideas....I know some of you more educated Ledgies will have some decent theories.
If this has been discussed before, please accept apologies.
Say You Will is a long album indeed. It was intended to be a double album. Reprise wanted a single album with more tracks. The band could have countered with two albums, one released in 2003, and the other released in 2004.
Say You Will could have used more keyboards. "Smile at You" could have used a piano. "Running through the Garden" could have used synthesizers.
Macfan4life
04-14-2020, 05:46 AM
But if you are impersonating Christine, those are the lyrics you write because Christine writes lyrics like that, pleading to the man, begging to be deceived just a little longer, just to keep him. Stevie eschews Dutch sentiments. I remember when she did Reconsider Me she said that words like that were not really her thing.
Exactly
I actually think its a very cleverly written song. Begging someone to stay around and to get them to "dance" i.e. extend the Dance tour
cbBen
04-15-2020, 12:26 AM
Exactly
I actually think its a very cleverly written song. Begging someone to stay around and to get them to "dance" i.e. extend the Dance tour
Talk about something bound to go over the public's head. The point is it was not a hit song, and those in the FM camp who thought it would be were misguided and self-deluding.
HomerMcvie
04-15-2020, 12:39 AM
Talk about something bound to go over the public's head. The point is it was not a hit song, and those in the FM camp who thought it would be were misguided and self-deluding.
$tevie pretending to be Christine is almost the same thing as Neil singing Lindsey's songs.:lol:
Macfan4life
04-15-2020, 03:55 AM
Talk about something bound to go over the public's head. The point is it was not a hit song, and those in the FM camp who thought it would be were misguided and self-deluding.
That's your opinion. Its probably the most pop song she has ever written. Stevie stated that and I agree. And that's my opinion. The song also is a metaphor and philosophy about the direction of the band after Christine. It did not go over anyone's head. The band and Stevie promoted the album with the story. I don't think there is anything cheezy about the song at all. Its written from the heart. If you want cheeze, break out your RAL album and you can breakdance to Sister Honey :eek:
17 years today! :]:thumbsup:
jbrownsjr
04-15-2020, 08:05 PM
$tevie pretending to be Christine is almost the same thing as Neil singing Lindsey's songs.:lol:
It's horrid even when she sings on Don't Stop and World Turning. Say You Won't.
HomerMcvie
04-15-2020, 09:00 PM
It's horrid even when she sings on Don't Stop and World Turning. Say You Won't.
You forgot Say You Love Me. $he sucks on that, too.
As always, this is my favorite song of hers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGBqB_k84Ms
The Say You Will tour was amazing. It was the only time I ever saw the band more than once on an album tour. There was no reason for them to do any Christine songs with the exception of Don’t Stop. Say You Love Me wasn’t necessary to do. We didn’t need to hear that without Christine.
HomerMcvie
04-15-2020, 10:01 PM
I just realized that BuckVie is the only FM tour from which I ever saw two shows. Nashville and Louisville.
I've seen one show from every other tour, Tusk forward.
Macfan4life
04-16-2020, 05:10 AM
As much as I liked the album SYW the tour is when it hit home with me how much Christine was needed in the band. IMHO Stevie looked sad. I like how they dug into some material but unfortunately did not take enough risks live to cater to the casual fans. I would have loved to hear more material from the new album. Also it would have been the perfect time to do Frozen Love and I Don't Want To Know.
A lost opportunity. They tried to stick to the traditional Mac live performance and Christine's absence was just too much for me. The magic was gone. Christine is the soul of the band IMHO.
As much as I liked the album SYW the tour is when it hit home with me how much Christine was needed in the band. IMHO Stevie looked sad. I like how they dug into some material but unfortunately did not take enough risks live to cater to the casual fans. I would have loved to hear more material from the new album. Also it would have been the perfect time to do Frozen Love and I Don't Want To Know.
A lost opportunity. They tried to stick to the traditional Mac live performance and Christine's absence was just too much for me. The magic was gone. Christine is the soul of the band IMHO.
I missed Christine very much on the tour and on the album.This was the opportunity to reissue Buckingham Nicks. They could have done a four song set on the tour. Stephanie, Crying in the Night, Don’t Let Me Down Again and Frozen Love.
BigAl84
04-17-2020, 08:33 AM
A few things that are maybe a little interesting that I remember from the SYW time.
1. About a month before release day, AOL would launch one new track or snippet of a track every week or something. It was a big deal and I remember making sure I was online to hear them. It was really exciting.
2. The band filmed a segment for AOL Sessions and Stevie had a perm. She also looked hugely sad and depressed while filming this segment. I believe this was due to the passing of Howie Epstein of The Heartbreakers. I don't remember if his passing was announced after AOL Sessions was filmed and released or before.
3. I remember going to pick up a special copy of USA Today because it has a big giant 1 page insert advertising the tour - I think I still have it somewhere.
4. This might of been the last tour with an uptempo version of Never Going Back Again being performed, with Stevie on harmony.
5. Hearing the initial recordings of "Sara" from opening night 2004 in Madison was amazing. We hadn't heard that song live in 25 years.
6. I saw them early in the tour in Buffalo - May 15, 2003 I believe and again in June 2004 at Blossom Music Center in Cleveland. Two very different shows in my opinion.
7. Peacekeeper was featured on an episode of Law and Order (I believe) before the album was released, it was a big deal to watch and hear as much of the track as possible.
8. The final, final show of the tour kept changing due to all the rescheduling that took place when Stevie was sick. I believe the tour wrapped up at some relatively odd venue at an Indian Casino in California that had a pretty small venue.
It was really an exciting time. Between '03-'04 I was a senior in high school and freshmen in college. Hard to believe all that time has gone by so quickly.
A few things that are maybe a little interesting that I remember from the SYW time.
1. About a month before release day, AOL would launch one new track or snippet of a track every week or something. It was a big deal and I remember making sure I was online to hear them. It was really exciting.
2. The band filmed a segment for AOL Sessions and Stevie had a perm. She also looked hugely sad and depressed while filming this segment. I believe this was due to the passing of Howie Epstein of The Heartbreakers. I don't remember if his passing was announced after AOL Sessions was filmed and released or before.
3. I remember going to pick up a special copy of USA Today because it has a big giant 1 page insert advertising the tour - I think I still have it somewhere.
4. This might of been the last tour with an uptempo version of Never Going Back Again being performed, with Stevie on harmony.
5. Hearing the initial recordings of "Sara" from opening night 2004 in Madison was amazing. We hadn't heard that song live in 25 years.
6. I saw them early in the tour in Buffalo - May 15, 2003 I believe and again in June 2004 at Blossom Music Center in Cleveland. Two very different shows in my opinion.
7. Peacekeeper was featured on an episode of Law and Order (I believe) before the album was released, it was a big deal to watch and hear as much of the track as possible.
8. The final, final show of the tour kept changing due to all the rescheduling that took place when Stevie was sick. I believe the tour wrapped up at some relatively odd venue at an Indian Casino in California that had a pretty small venue.
It was really an exciting time. Between '03-'04 I was a senior in high school and freshmen in college. Hard to believe all that time has gone by so quickly.
The song Say You Will was featured on That 70 show prior to its release.😎
I like Say You Will. It's not on my Top 5 of FM albums, but I like it. I found it at a great moment in my life so it has its respects.
Unfortunately, there's a moment where the album is too long to me, where I lose the notion of what I'm hearing, and it's in the middle of the album. Anyway, there's a lot of songs that deserve a good attention.
- What's The World Coming To is a nice piece. I like it as a beginning.
- Murrow is hard to hear. I like it because of the Soundstage version, but the guitar of the studio version sounds a bit creepy haha
- Illume is maybe my favourite. The "dark" of its sound is great. And the best, it's a long song. A nice work of Stevie Nicks.
- Come and Bleed To Love Her are other songs that sounded better live, but are great to hear them on the album.
- I don't like Say Goodbye at all. It goes to fast, and the guitar sounds really different. Once again, Soundstage rules.
- Steal Your Heart Away is simply wonderful, sweet and a great moment of Say You Will.
- After Illume, Destiny Rules and Everybody Finds Out are the best works of Nicks.
- Red Rover is amazing. But Lindsey put the style of the song in all his next solo albums... :distress:
My Top 5 of songs would be:
1) Illume
2) Steal Your Heart Away
3) What's The World Coming To
4) Bleed To Love Her
5) Destiny Rules
Of course, I missed Christine! :(
Mark.
tabruns
04-19-2020, 06:35 PM
I also really like SAY YOU WILL. Although it did suffer by not having McVie, so the Mac chemistry wasn't quite there, I thought Buckingham did a great job producing and both his and Nicks's songs were high quality. Nicks definitely bounced back from the sub-par materials she'd submitted for TANGO and MASK. "Say You Will", "Thrown Down" and "Illume" are really excellent. "Everybody Finds Out" and "Destiny Rules" nearly so.
Buckingham did great with topical songs that really spoke the times: "Peacekeeper", "What's The World Coming To", "Murrow". "Steal Your Heart Away" is a gorgeous piece of ear candy, and the vocals on "Miranda" are rather amazing.
I think the band should have added a few more songs and gone for an actual double CD. They'd have been certified platinum if they had.
tabruns
04-19-2020, 06:39 PM
5. Hearing the initial recordings of "Sara" from opening night 2004 in Madison was amazing. We hadn't heard that song live in 25 years.
OMG YES, I was at that same show. I remember the incredible reaction when the song started. I also remember how touched the band was that the huge crowd was really patient when Buckingham's guitars just wouldn't tune up at one point.
tabruns
04-19-2020, 06:42 PM
That's your opinion. Its probably the most pop song she has ever written. Stevie stated that and I agree. And that's my opinion. The song also is a metaphor and philosophy about the direction of the band after Christine. It did not go over anyone's head. The band and Stevie promoted the album with the story. I don't think there is anything cheezy about the song at all. Its written from the heart. If you want cheeze, break out your RAL album and you can breakdance to Sister Honey :eek:
True, "Say You Will" IS very catchy. During Mac's heyday it would have been a Top Ten hit. It was a hit on the AC chart, but there was just no way a legacy band was going to get a Top 40 hit on the Billboard Hot 100.
HomerMcvie
04-19-2020, 09:14 PM
I think the band should have added a few more songs and gone for an actual double CD. They'd have been certified platinum if they had.
I disagree.
It's been certified as selling 500K in the U.S., 100K in the U.K., 50,000 in Canada, and 7,500 in New Zealand.
And a higher price point for a double album might have kept half of those people from buying.
Note - IT'S TOO DAMNED LONG AS IT IS!!!!!!:laugh::wavey:
KenshiMaster16
04-22-2020, 01:16 AM
I disagree.
It's been certified as selling 500K in the U.S., 100K in the U.K., 50,000 in Canada, and 7,500 in New Zealand.
And a higher price point for a double album might have kept half of those people from buying.
Note - IT'S TOO DAMNED LONG AS IT IS!!!!!!:laugh::wavey:
Yep. We could've done without 4-ish songs and it still would have been, at least in my opinion, a very solid effort (like it still is). Maybe chop off Murrow and Miranda for Lindsey, then chop off Silver Girl and Goodbye Baby for Stevie.
Both of Buck's sound way too much like his solo material and both of Stevie's have always been clunkers to my ears. Her other material on the album is far more superior.
HomerMcvie
04-22-2020, 02:04 AM
Yep. We could've done without 4-ish songs and it still would have been, at least in my opinion, a very solid effort (like it still is). Maybe chop off Murrow and Miranda for Lindsey, then chop off Silver Girl and Goodbye Baby for Stevie.
Both of Buck's sound way too much like his solo material and both of Stevie's have always been clunkers to my ears. Her other material on the album is far more superior.
I agree on both points, except I'd lose Come and Murrow for Lindsey. Miranda's pretty catchy.
And I'd lose Silver Girl, Illume(bores me to tears), and SYW(I HATE the children's chorus at the end = cheesy AF) for Stevie.
Macfan4life
04-22-2020, 04:44 AM
I agree on both points, except I'd lose Come and Murrow for Lindsey. Miranda's pretty catchy.
And I'd lose Silver Girl, Illume(bores me to tears), and SYW(I HATE the children's chorus at the end = cheesy AF) for Stevie.
Oh come on now
You've built your life around Silver Girl and you know it
mitzo
04-22-2020, 07:51 AM
I agree on both points, except I'd lose Come and Murrow for Lindsey. Miranda's pretty catchy.
And I'd lose Silver Girl, Illume(bores me to tears), and SYW(I HATE the children's chorus at the end = cheesy AF) for Stevie.
4 songs I'd cut are Murrow, Come, Red Rover, and Bleed to Love Her.
I’d cut just two songs, I like the Album but it is too long.
Come and Silver Girl could both go for me...
vivfox
04-22-2020, 05:26 PM
Oh come on now Homer.
You've built your life around Silver Girl and you know it
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
vivfox
04-22-2020, 05:29 PM
Come and Silver Girl could both go for me
For many fans these are the one song from each artist least liked. But you know if they had made this an album of just 13 tracks, these surely would have been included. I have only heard maybe one or two fans besides Homer say they like Silver Girl. I wonder if Sheryl Crow secretly hated it along with the rest of us people with musical taste?
HomerMcvie
04-22-2020, 05:55 PM
For many fans these are the one song from each artist least liked. But you know if they had made this an album of just 13 tracks, these surely would have been included. I have only heard maybe one or two fans besides Homer say they like Silver Girl. I wonder if Sheryl Crow secretly hated it along with the rest of us people with musical taste?
They were joking. I hate that f*cking song!
tabruns
04-27-2020, 02:24 PM
Yep. We could've done without 4-ish songs and it still would have been, at least in my opinion, a very solid effort (like it still is). Maybe chop off Murrow and Miranda for Lindsey, then chop off Silver Girl and Goodbye Baby for Stevie.
Both of Buck's sound way too much like his solo material and both of Stevie's have always been clunkers to my ears. Her other material on the album is far more superior.
Can't agree on "Miranda" at all. That's a great song.
jcalzaretta
04-29-2020, 03:16 PM
this review is spot on. I agree 150%
WTWCT
Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Running Through the Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
Bleed to Love Her
Everybody Finds Out
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby
Contrary to many, I love Running Through the Garden. I think it could have been a tour de force live if they would have done it more than once. Likewise, Everybody Finds Out should have replaced Stand Back in the set for Stevie's "fast" song.
Smile At You was a total disappointment in the form that it was released. Silver Girl should have been shot into the sun via cannon. Murrow and Red Rover are just not FM enough. Come, to me, is like I'm So Afraid. Amazing live, a real dud on the album. I hated his voice on that track, whereas live I thought it rocked hard. Illume never did anything for me - it just lacks the emotion I'd figure a song with 9-11 in the title would have.
Macfan4life
04-30-2020, 06:10 AM
Illume is pure Lindsey. I used to say the same thing about Over and Over. I actually had the live album before Tusk. So I was used to the live version and the album version is cold and has no warmth yet the lyrics are warm and inviting.
It's part of Lindsey's production. Was 9/11 warm and fuzzy? No.
My point is that its perfectly fine to not like the song but the reasons people give irk me. Do people really want a catchy pop song about 9/11. Has anyone listened to the song with headphones? Its more of a poem set to music than a song to sing along to.
The song is unpredictable. You don't know where its going with any melody. It sounds like Stevie is singing into a tube in her bathroom. Its cold and distant. Its about mass death and escaping the stench. It captures every element of the feeling of 9/11 IMHO. Its actually confusing the first few times you hear it. Remember the confusion of 9/11?
I can appreciate what Lindsey did with the song because its all him. It would have been an easy pass to put it on an album but I am glad it did. Lindsey calls himself a painter and this painting would be a dark and confusing painting. People would not like the painting and fear it or say "it does nothing for me." But if someone explained the painting to you, you would appreciate what the artist was conveying.
mitzo
04-30-2020, 07:37 AM
Illume is pure Lindsey. I used to say the same thing about Over and Over. I actually had the live album before Tusk. So I was used to the live version and the album version is cold and has no warmth yet the lyrics are warm and inviting.
It's part of Lindsey's production. Was 9/11 warm and fuzzy? No.
My point is that its perfectly fine to not like the song but the reasons people give irk me. Do people really want a catchy pop song about 9/11. Has anyone listened to the song with headphones? Its more of a poem set to music than a song to sing along to.
The song is unpredictable. You don't know where its going with any melody. It sounds like Stevie is singing into a tube in her bathroom. Its cold and distant. Its about mass death and escaping the stench. It captures every element of the feeling of 9/11 IMHO. Its actually confusing the first few times you hear it. Remember the confusion of 9/11?
I can appreciate what Lindsey did with the song because its all him. It would have been an easy pass to put it on an album but I am glad it did. Lindsey calls himself a painter and this painting would be a dark and confusing painting. People would not like the painting and fear it or say "it does nothing for me." But if someone explained the painting to you, you would appreciate what the artist was conveying.
Illume is probably my favourite track on the album. Dark and dramatic, it captures the mood of the time. Stevie really tears into the vocals for the most part, and the trance-like beat and heavy instrumentals are really effective.
Macfan4life
04-30-2020, 08:22 AM
Illume is probably my favourite track on the album. Dark and dramatic, it captures the mood of the time. Stevie really tears into the vocals for the most part, and the trance-like beat and heavy instrumentals are really effective.
The lyrics are very good too. People really want literal words? "We are in a hotel and buildings are falling down.....la la la la"
Poetry is subtle and the casual listener may not even catch on its about 9/11. She even mentions Osama without calling him by name (shadow of a stranger). Her reference is putting smell to cover the smell of death and how they can get out. All very real and dramatic in poetry style. I suppose its a song that makes you think very similar to the actual 9/11 memorials. Each memorial like war memorials are an artist's view in trying to convey something that is not always literal.
My first several times hearing the song, I was confused like everyone else. WTH? But then I understood, that's on purpose and then I got to see the layers Buckingham added to the song. What people are saying they don't like about the song are purposely put there. Its like the debate on whether Tusk is under produced or over produced. Many will say its over produced purposely to sound like its underproduced.
Illume : Confusing, dark, angry, singing cold, distant, no direction where its going Those were my feelings exactly on the day of 9/11
jbrownsjr
04-30-2020, 10:41 AM
Illume is probably my favourite track on the album. Dark and dramatic, it captures the mood of the time. Stevie really tears into the vocals for the most part, and the trance-like beat and heavy instrumentals are really effective.
If I had to pick a favorite, Illume would be it. Her harsh vocals match the mood. Kind of why I love WISYA.
If I had to pick a favorite, Illume would be it. Her harsh vocals match the mood. Kind of why I love WISYA.
Yes, I do love her harsh vocals on both of these tracks. Say You Will is a great album. Christine said she would have recorded with them at the time. However, I forget if it was Stevie or Lindsey that said if Christine had a hit on the album they couldn’t do it on the tour. So they recorded it without her.
HomerMcvie
04-30-2020, 11:59 AM
Yes, I do love her harsh vocals on both of these tracks. Say You Will is a great album. Christine said she would have recorded with them at the time. However, I forget if it was Stevie or Lindsey that said if Christine had a hit on the album they couldn’t do it on the tour. So they recorded it without her.
I'm pretty sure it was Lindsey who said that.
I'm pretty sure it was Lindsey who said that.
You are correct it was Lindsey. It was a bad call(IMO) not to let her record with them. She was already on two of the tracks.😎
HomerMcvie
04-30-2020, 10:04 PM
You are correct it was Lindsey. It was a bad call(IMO) not to let her record with them. She was already on two of the tracks.😎
I get his point. She made all these poppy, radio friendly songs. Even if they didn't have any new hits, people would want to hear her songs. More so if she had a real presence on the new record.
Even if she's spineless(in regards to saving Lindsey), she is the sound of FM to me. She's the balance that made it all work.
tabruns
05-01-2020, 12:28 AM
Illume is probably my favourite track on the album. Dark and dramatic, it captures the mood of the time. Stevie really tears into the vocals for the most part, and the trance-like beat and heavy instrumentals are really effective.
I like "Illume" a lot. I think it's a great Nicks track. Between that and "Say You Will" and "Thrown Down", Nicks had 3 classic tracks just like she's had on every Mac album except TANGO IN THE NIGHT and BEHIND THE MASK.
SteveMacD
05-01-2020, 01:20 AM
It was Stevie that said something about what if Christine had a hit. Maybe Lindsey did, too, when he wasn’t too busy talking about burning bridges.
SteveMacD
05-01-2020, 01:23 AM
I like "Illume" a lot. I think it's a great Nicks track. Between that and "Say You Will" and "Thrown Down", Nicks had 3 classic tracks just like she's had on every Mac album except TANGO IN THE NIGHT and BEHIND THE MASK.
She also had as many clunkers as Tango and Mask...
That said, I think her songs on SYW were her best since Mirage.
jbrownsjr
05-01-2020, 09:52 AM
It was Stevie that said something about what if Christine had a hit. Maybe Lindsey did, too, when he wasn’t too busy talking about burning bridges.
Honestly, I know it must have been difficult to work with just Stevie without having Christine around as a buffer; but, he could have honored Christine's legacy instead of taking pot shots are her songs, and life choices. She's pretty legendary and her contributions kept the band going in many instances. I was pretty shocked he was acting like that when she left. (I didn't know at the time he really wanted her to stay.)
Honestly, I know it must have been difficult to work with just Stevie without having Christine around as a buffer; but, he could have honored Christine's legacy instead of taking pot shots are her songs, and life choices. She's pretty legendary and her contributions kept the band going in many instances. I was pretty shocked he was acting like that when she left. (I didn't know at the time he really wanted her to stay.)
I've long felt there was a lot of resentment by all of them (maybe not John, who knows, the man doesn't seem to care either way about anything) toward Christine leaving in 1998. 20+ years on, that all thawed away, but I think especially in the immediate post-Dance years, they were all pissed at her. Think of the money they did NOT make by milking The Dance tour out until 1999. Hell Freezes Over went on for over two years and I'm sure the powers that be and the band itself saw a similar market for their reunion. They could've toured all over the world...gone to Australia for the first time since Tusk, Japan, done a full tour of Europe, and then come back and did a second leg in the US before wrapping up.
So, I think that lost opportunity resentment lasted for awhile and in Lindsey's case, he can say what he wants now, but he was pretty crappy toward Christine during the lead up to SYW. The bridges, the masculine show, all that nonsense. To me, it was a way to sell the band without their biggest hitmaker and also express some of that resentment for leaving in '98.
In my own alternative reality - I see the band either touring as a five piece through 1999, or touring as Buckingham Nicks with Mick Fleetwood and John McVie in celebration of that albums 25th anniversary and rerelease on CD. They could've stretched that gravy train out for awhile and with Chris leaving, they dropped a golden opportunity to release that album to the masses and tour behind it. I imagine a Buckingham Nicks set along with a few select solo songs from each and a solid set of Fleetwood Mac hits would have been incredibly lucrative and popular in the early post-Dance years.
Say You Will was a long 6 years later and I just think things could have been a lot different and more interesting if they did something together within those 6 years or at the very least just let Christine play on the album and not tour.
jbrownsjr
05-04-2020, 09:59 PM
I've long felt there was a lot of resentment by all of them (maybe not John, who knows, the man doesn't seem to care either way about anything) toward Christine leaving in 1998. 20+ years on, that all thawed away, but I think especially in the immediate post-Dance years, they were all pissed at her. Think of the money they did NOT make by milking The Dance tour out until 1999. Hell Freezes Over went on for over two years and I'm sure the powers that be and the band itself saw a similar market for their reunion. They could've toured all over the world...gone to Australia for the first time since Tusk, Japan, done a full tour of Europe, and then come back and did a second leg in the US before wrapping up.
So, I think that lost opportunity resentment lasted for awhile and in Lindsey's case, he can say what he wants now, but he was pretty crappy toward Christine during the lead up to SYW. The bridges, the masculine show, all that nonsense. To me, it was a way to sell the band without their biggest hitmaker and also express some of that resentment for leaving in '98.
In my own alternative reality - I see the band either touring as a five piece through 1999, or touring as Buckingham Nicks with Mick Fleetwood and John McVie in celebration of that albums 25th anniversary and rerelease on CD. They could've stretched that gravy train out for awhile and with Chris leaving, they dropped a golden opportunity to release that album to the masses and tour behind it. I imagine a Buckingham Nicks set along with a few select solo songs from each and a solid set of Fleetwood Mac hits would have been incredibly lucrative and popular in the early post-Dance years.
Say You Will was a long 6 years later and I just think things could have been a lot different and more interesting if they did something together within those 6 years or at the very least just let Christine play on the album and not tour.
Absolutely! Even if she had a hit it would have been such an improvement. You Are or Friend would have really been nice on the radio with Lindsey's sensibilities. Peacekeeper and Say You Will were terrible choices in my opinion.
Absolutely! Even if she had a hit it would have been such an improvement. You Are or Friend would have really been nice on the radio with Lindsey's sensibilities. Peacekeeper and Say You Will were terrible choices in my opinion.
I like Peacekeeper, a lot...it’s one of my favourites from the whole Album.
It’s still played often on UK Radio......(well Ken Bruce show).
But I agree, Christine just 2-3 songs would have been great, more whole as it were.
Absolutely! Even if she had a hit it would have been such an improvement. You Are or Friend would have really been nice on the radio with Lindsey's sensibilities. Peacekeeper and Say You Will were terrible choices in my opinion.
Friend would have been a much better single than both Peacekeeper and Say You Will. The song Say You Will is so clearly Stevie trying to be Christine that it just doesn't work. I don't know that any Fleetwood Mac song would have been a 'hit' in 2003 (I'm inclined to say no way), but a Lindsey-produced Friend with the three voices would have been the best lead single from a 5-some album. I like Peacekeeper and think it is a solid choice and I wish they would've pimped the hell out of Everybody Finds Out. Thrown Down would have been a solid single as well and clearly was good enough to close out an episode of Friends which was still pulling 20M viewers a week.
Illume is probably my favourite track on the album. Dark and dramatic, it captures the mood of the time. Stevie really tears into the vocals for the most part, and the trance-like beat and heavy instrumentals are really effective.
Exactly This!! That's what I wanted to say before, the trance-like beat of the song. It gives the atmosphere...
I read the story of the meaning of Illume, but for someone who discovered the song err...9 years later? ( :wavey: ) it's interesting to give a new sense to the song, even when you hear that and you still think on what happened that 9/11.
[...] Christine said she would have recorded with them at the time. However, I forget if it was Stevie or Lindsey that said if Christine had a hit on the album they couldn’t do it on the tour. So they recorded it without her.
With some pressure from WB, she recorded a few -good- songs for the Time album, without Lindsey and Stevie on board. Why she didn't try to make the same and record her part by her own way??:shrug: It was maybe the chance for a last album of the Rumours line-up, but then we would start to make new questions...
SteveMacD
05-06-2020, 04:19 PM
With some pressure from WB, she recorded a few -good- songs for the Time album, without Lindsey and Stevie on board.
She was under contract to make that album. She signed on in 1993, before Billy left, before Bekka and Dave joined, and before Billy returned. She tried to pull out, but the label forced the issue. No way they were going to release a Fleetwood Mac without all three of the Rumours vocalists.
Why she didn't try to make the same and record her part by her own way??:shrug:
She offered but they refused since she wouldn’t tour.
BigAl84
05-07-2020, 11:49 AM
IMO, I don't think the entire "Burning her bridges" Christine thing was ever meant as harshly or negatively as it may have been received. Yes, the term "burning your bridges" is very often meant negatively however, it's possible that it was used due to how extremely adamant Christine was about her decision. She was asked repeatedly and repeatedly said no, sold her house, packed up, and moved to another continent. Apparently it got to the point where she told mick "don't even ask me"
And it certainly wasn't just Lindsey speaking to the press about the bands sound being more masculine. Stevie, Mick, John...they all talked about that. Stevie is even quoted as talking pretty highly of Lindsey by "working up the show" into a big rock and roll show.
Additionally, at the time I never got the impression these statements were a slight against Christine or intended to be so. The dynamic of the band indeed changed, which is well documented and talked about in interviews from that time.
Personally, I was way more offended by the Sheryl Crow fiasco. To me, that's worse than Christine not being there. Luckily, it appears Lindsey was able to put the kibosh on that, in addition to the apparent attempt to replace John during his cancer scare...but I digress.
BigAl84
05-07-2020, 11:56 AM
Also regarding the loss of momentum and inability to extend the dance tour causing resentment...
Who knows how the other 4 felt, but I'd venture to say that it actually opened the golden window for Stevie to restart her solo career. She was back out on the road behind the Enchanted Box Set, did the millennium shows, and went back to finish TISL which really started before the Dance.
This was before the era of Fleetwood Mac tour resentment/martyrdom coming from Stevie, I don't remember any quotes from Stevie that hinted at any resentment towards Christine.
Personally, I was way more offended by the Sheryl Crow fiasco. To me, that's worse than Christine not being there. Luckily, it appears Lindsey was able to put the kibosh on that, in addition to the apparent attempt to replace John during his cancer scare...but I digress.
THAT had to be one of the worst ideas Stevie (and Mick most likely) ever presented. AWFUL!
UnwindedDreams
05-07-2020, 12:44 PM
Personally, I was way more offended by the Sheryl Crow fiasco. To me, that's worse than Christine not being there. Luckily, it appears Lindsey was able to put the kibosh on that, in addition to the apparent attempt to replace John during his cancer scare...but I digress.
Is it reported that Mick wanted to replace John for the Fall 2013 Tour? I can't recall a report of Lindsey or Stevie looking to replace John.
HomerMcvie
05-07-2020, 12:48 PM
THAT had to be one of the worst ideas Stevie (and Mick most likely) ever presented. AWFUL!
Whatever Stevie wants, Dick supports. Gotta suck up to the meal ticket!
HomerMcvie
05-07-2020, 12:49 PM
Is it reported that Mick wanted to replace John for the Fall 2013 Tour? I can't recall a report of Lindsey or Stevie looking to replace John.
Because Mick is SCUM. Absolute f*cking SCUM.
Whatever Stevie wants, Dick supports. Gotta suck up to the meal ticket!
I really don’t mind Sheryl but a Version of FM infused with her would be about as cringeworthy as... imagine a set with Soak Up the Sun and Sheryl singing Say You Love Me...about as bad as what eventually happened...
HomerMcvie
05-07-2020, 05:48 PM
I really don’t mind Sheryl but a Version of FM infused with her would be about as cringeworthy. Imagine a set with Soak Up the Sun and Sheryl singing Say You Love Me. About as bad as what eventually happened...
I'd rather have Bekka back. That girl can SING. Best singer FM ever had.
But of course that would show off the other's(all of them) geriatric vocal cords.
BigAl84
05-07-2020, 06:21 PM
Is it reported that Mick wanted to replace John for the Fall 2013 Tour? I can't recall a report of Lindsey or Stevie looking to replace John.
It was mentioned in the lawsuit papers. I don’t recall if it was ever mentioned who spearheaded that idea, but apparently Lindsey was against the idea.
BigAl84
05-07-2020, 06:22 PM
I really don’t mind Sheryl but a Version of FM infused with her would be about as cringeworthy as... imagine a set with Soak Up the Sun and Sheryl singing Say You Love Me...about as bad as what eventually happened...
Oh I enjoy Sheryl as her own artist, but I also agree that it would be just as cringeworthy as what eventually happened anyways.
BigAl84
05-07-2020, 06:26 PM
Whatever Stevie wants, Dick supports. Gotta suck up to the meal ticket!
I’m sure there is one more FM tour that will happen after the financial hit Mick is probably taking with his restaurant during this pandemic. He will need a bail out.
HomerMcvie
05-07-2020, 06:44 PM
I’m sure there is one more FM tour that will happen after the financial hit Mick is probably taking with his restaurant during this pandemic. He will need a bail out.
He is surely the biggest LOSER in R&R history.
I'm sure he's lost 50 fortunes.
What a f*cking DUMBASS.
She was under contract to make that album. She signed on in 1993, before Billy left, before Bekka and Dave joined, and before Billy returned. She tried to pull out, but the label forced the issue. No way they were going to release a Fleetwood Mac without all three of the Rumours vocalists.
She offered but they refused since she wouldn’t tour.
So we lost a big chance to hear her voice -a bit better- in SYW... :(
I'd rather have Bekka back. That girl can SING. Best singer FM ever had.
But of course that would show off the other's(all of them) geriatric vocal cords.
Chris has a great voice too! Her style is simply wonderful, but Bekka really rocked!
HomerMcvie
05-09-2020, 01:53 AM
Chris has a great voice too! Her style is simply wonderful, but Bekka really rocked!
Chris was great! But like the other two, there's not much left these days.
Bekka on Blow By Blow? My god, she's AMAZING!
I went and saw her a couple of times in Nashville, maybe 3 years ago, at B.B. Kings, doing a full 3-4 hour night with a full band. F*cking awesome! I met her and talked to her for a few minutes the first time. She was very nice, and very easy to talk to. I requested Dreaming the Dream from Time, and she said they didn't know it, and was surprised that I knew of it.
I meant to bring Time back the next time for her to sign, but it was at my other house out of state, and I forgot to bring it.
HomerMcvie
05-09-2020, 01:57 AM
I have a producer friend in Nashville, who says her ego is massive, though. And so is her Mother's(Bonnie Bramlett, in case you didn't know). He said if you put them together in the same room, it's impossible to fit anything else in the room!:lol:
But she was as sweet as could be, to me. She kept walking out to the sidewalk by herself, to smoke while the band was playing a song without her.
SteveMacD
05-09-2020, 02:55 AM
Is it reported that Mick wanted to replace John for the Fall 2013 Tour? I can't recall a report of Lindsey or Stevie looking to replace John.
I think more has been made of this than is warranted. It seemed more to do with having an alternative if they couldn’t get out of commitments, since John isn’t a vocalist. I’m sure they have insurance, but still not a bad idea to have a backup plan. However, it would have only been temporary.
It was mentioned in the lawsuit papers. I don’t recall if it was ever mentioned who spearheaded that idea, but apparently Lindsey was against the idea.
yes. plus there were leaks from the band about that around that time. Mick and Stevie only relented not replacing John once they were informed insurance will cover their pulling out of Australia dates.
before that, Lindsey was the only one holding the line, that they should not tour without John.
so i guess since that time, John was well aware Mick and Stevie will throw him under the bus, if needed. maybe that's why people blame not stopping Lindsey ouster more on Christine. but - without John, Christine and Lindsey all there, with just Mick and Stevie, how successful would they be in selling the band as Fleetwood Mac? who knows? they have a great PR machine behind them when they need it.
UnwindedDreams
05-09-2020, 03:52 PM
I guess they could've had Al Ortiz do the Fall 2013 Tour. He even sang backup Gypsy and Rhiannon on the 24K Tour:laugh:
I think Ron Blair sang backup vocals sometimes in Heartbreakers shows.
SteveMacD
05-09-2020, 04:08 PM
yes. plus there were leaks from the band about that around that time. Mick and Stevie only relented not replacing John once they were informed insurance will cover their pulling out of Australia dates.
before that, Lindsey was the only one holding the line, that they should not tour without John.
so i guess since that time, John was well aware Mick and Stevie will throw him under the bus, if needed. maybe that's why people blame not stopping Lindsey ouster more on Christine. but - without John, Christine and Lindsey all there, with just Mick and Stevie, how successful would they be in selling the band as Fleetwood Mac? who knows? they have a great PR machine behind them when they need it.
It would have only been a temporary, contractual obligation move. I’m sure John would have been fine with it. Plus, I seem to recall everyone thinking it was cool when Steve filled in for Mick after he got sick mid-show.
SteveMacD
05-09-2020, 04:12 PM
I guess they could've had Al Ortiz do the Fall 2013 Tour. He even sang backup Gypsy and Rhiannon on the 24K Tour:laugh:
I think Ron Blair sang backup vocals sometimes in Heartbreakers shows.
Nah. George Hawkins. He worked with Mick, Christine, and Lindsey, sang harmonies on John’s album, and sang Stevie’s parts on “Whenever I Call You Friend” when he was working for Kenny Loggins. Then again, I’m not sure he himself wasn’t sick by that point.
BigAl84
05-11-2020, 12:09 PM
yes. plus there were leaks from the band about that around that time. Mick and Stevie only relented not replacing John once they were informed insurance will cover their pulling out of Australia dates.
before that, Lindsey was the only one holding the line, that they should not tour without John.
so i guess since that time, John was well aware Mick and Stevie will throw him under the bus, if needed. maybe that's why people blame not stopping Lindsey ouster more on Christine. but - without John, Christine and Lindsey all there, with just Mick and Stevie, how successful would they be in selling the band as Fleetwood Mac? who knows? they have a great PR machine behind them when they need it.
Great PR machine and a casual fanbase that will show up for anything apparently. They still took a bath on that first leg when places were barely half sold. I think they got much better at "papering" shows and giving away tickets as the tour progressed. That's the only reason that tour went on as long as it did - they had to recoup money and shows were paced very far apart. People loved reporting show stats from billboard or Pollstar, but it's pretty common knowledge that those stats are doctored to cover up poor sales well before they are published.
For a hot minute, I gave them a sliver of credit for an interesting setlist. Then, like every interesting Fleetwood Mac setlist, they reverted back to the usual. Oh, but it was Lindsey responsible for the stale setlists! RIGHT!
Nicks Fan
05-11-2020, 12:59 PM
Great PR machine and a casual fanbase that will show up for anything apparently. They still took a bath on that first leg when places were barely half sold. I think they got much better at "papering" shows and giving away tickets as the tour progressed. That's the only reason that tour went on as long as it did - they had to recoup money and shows were paced very far apart. People loved reporting show stats from billboard or Pollstar, but it's pretty common knowledge that those stats are doctored to cover up poor sales well before they are published.
For a hot minute, I gave them a sliver of credit for an interesting setlist. Then, like every interesting Fleetwood Mac setlist, they reverted back to the usual. Oh, but it was Lindsey responsible for the stale setlists! RIGHT!
I agree re the setlists. Back when Lindsey quit in 87 the band resorted to doing SN solo songs and a Buckingham Nicks song in the setlist instead of doing any Bob Welch, Danny Kirwan or Jeremey Spencer material. Heck they could have done something rare of Stevie's like Storm's, That's Alright etc but instead they stuck to the tried and true. If Rick and or Billy hadn't insisted on doing some Peter Green songs they wouldn't have done those either.
Face it they are a band that shot themselves in the foot by not playing music from all eras throughout the past 40 plus years so now most fans in attendance don't know or care for songs from that era.
Look at social media. How many of the so called FM fans ever said anything negative about the stale setlists till Lindsey was out? Once he was fired then they tried to act like they cared about Welch, Kirwan etc and were always clammering to hear their songs in the show. I guess anything to justify his firing and or another stale nostlagia tour.
SteveMacD
05-11-2020, 05:34 PM
I agree re the setlists. Back when Lindsey quit in 87 the band resorted to doing SN solo songs and a Buckingham Nicks song in the setlist instead of doing any Bob Welch, Danny Kirwan or Jeremey Spencer material.
Heck they could have done something rare of Stevie's like Storm's, That's Alright etc but instead they stuck to the tried and true.
It was a different equation in 1987. It was their first tour in five years, they had a new lineup, Stevie had a massive solo career by then, and they were still making relevant music. They weren’t a nostalgia act, yet. They were playing it safe and were going out of their way to spotlight the girls.
As for doing DLMDA, that was entirely Billy’s idea. He and his dad were signed to Polydor in 1973 and were given a copy of the album by the label and Billy immediately loved it, saying it reminded him a little of Delaney & Bonnie. And, DLMDA was a perfect stylistic fit for him. That said, his solo song “It Ain’t Over,” which was a duet with Christine, would have been much more appropriate.
If Rick and or Billy hadn't insisted on doing some Peter Green songs they wouldn't have done those either.
I don’t think they had to insist on anything. Mick, John, and Christine are always up for playing blues. Plus, with Rick having been a Bluesbreaker, I think that was the point in bringing him in. The blues were in vogue again, notably thanks to Stevie Ray Vaughn.
Face it they are a band that shot themselves in the foot by not playing music from all eras throughout the past 40 plus years so now most fans in attendance don't know or care for songs from that era.
Yes and no. By the time they got to Tusk, when they were knee deep in current relevance, they had enough from just that lineup that they wanted to play that there wasn’t room for the old stuff, beyond “Oh Well.” Plus, would it have made sense to keep “Hypnotized” in the set when Bob Welch was successfully touring as a solo artist?
Look at social media. How many of the so called FM fans ever said anything negative about the stale setlists till Lindsey was out?
Around here, it was a very common complaint. Personally, I’ve always thought they could have expanded what they were drawing upon. Especially during the “Time” era tours.
SteveMacD
05-11-2020, 05:50 PM
Great PR machine and a casual fanbase that will show up for anything apparently.
Also, die-hard fans. People who want to see Christine, Stevie, Mick, and John. Plus, Finn and Campbell also brought in a people.
They still took a bath on that first leg when places were barely half sold.
They wouldn’t have taken a bath. They have guarantees. It’s the promoter who would take a bath.
That's the only reason that tour went on as long as it did - they had to recoup money and shows were paced very far apart. People loved reporting show stats from billboard or Pollstar, but it's pretty common knowledge that those stats are doctored to cover up poor sales well before they are published.
The shows I saw were 85%-90% sold out, and most of the pictures I saw from other shows looked similar.
What evidence do you have that disputes the numbers? Is that something you know for a fact to be true, or is that just something you want to be true?
button-lip
05-11-2020, 08:14 PM
Great PR machine and a casual fanbase that will show up for anything apparently. They still took a bath on that first leg when places were barely half sold. I think they got much better at "papering" shows and giving away tickets as the tour progressed. That's the only reason that tour went on as long as it did - they had to recoup money and shows were paced very far apart. People loved reporting show stats from billboard or Pollstar, but it's pretty common knowledge that those stats are doctored to cover up poor sales well before they are published.
For a hot minute, I gave them a sliver of credit for an interesting setlist. Then, like every interesting Fleetwood Mac setlist, they reverted back to the usual. Oh, but it was Lindsey responsible for the stale setlists! RIGHT!
This last tour was a great opportunity to get a front row half the price. I remember reading comments on Twitter of many fans who experienced the joy of buying a cheap seat to end up on the front row. :nod:
Giving away was the key on this tour. :nod:
SteveMacD
05-11-2020, 09:04 PM
This last tour was a great opportunity to get a front row half the price. I remember reading comments on Twitter of many fans who experienced the joy of buying a cheap seat to end up on the front row. :nod:
Giving away was the key on this tour. :nod:
Except, the band didn’t control the ticket prices and didn’t make a decision to reduce prices. That was all the promoters. The band would have gotten paid, regardless.
And I wish I could have gotten a giveaway ticket. I didn’t get in for less than three bills, and a couple of shows were last minute things. Worth it just to hear Christine play a couple of blues solos.
UnwindedDreams
05-11-2020, 09:40 PM
And I wish I could have gotten a giveaway ticket. I didn’t get in for less than three bills, and a couple of shows were last minute things. Worth it just to hear Christine play a couple of blues solos. I got in The Garden in the loge next to the stage for under $200. Amazing seat esp for GDW
SteveMacD
05-11-2020, 10:05 PM
I got in The Garden in the loge next to the stage for under $200. Amazing seat esp for GDW
Nice! The best I got was in club seating. The view was better than the nosebleeds and it was a smaller, much less congested section, so I was happy.
cbBen
05-16-2020, 02:35 PM
I rate this album very highly. My chief complaint is that it is too long. It astounds me that Lindsey wanted to make it even longer. He was wrong on that front.
That said, I think he did an amazing job producing. Most interesting production Stevie's material had received in eons.
Here's what Sea Of Tranquility guest co-host Jeff Young said about the album (see 12:50-mark here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdbNnq2L32Q):
"I got a lot to say about this underrated album in their catalog, in the Fleetwood Mac canon, which is Say You Will. And one cool thing is Lindsey did the whole album with the VG-8 Roland–it's like a guitar synthesizer–and the special pickups that he has in his Rick Turner guitar. So it has a very cool sound. He shreds a lot on that album. He gets really aggressive. There's a lot of guitar playing on this album. I think a lot of people miss this record."
Favorite songs are "Murrow" "Everybody Finds Out" "Running Through The Garden" "Steal Your Heart Away" and "Destiny Rules."
Least favorite are the title track (those lyrics), "Silver Girl," and especially "Come" (too heavy for me – I'm a folkie).
Overall, I agree with Jeff Young that it's a tremendously underrated album.
And no, I don't miss Christine. To me, it's a nice of change of pace.
tabruns
05-16-2020, 09:04 PM
I rate this album very highly. My chief complaint is that it is too long. It astounds me that Lindsey wanted to make it even longer. He was wrong on that front.
That said, I think he did an amazing job producing. Most interesting production Stevie's material had received in eons.
Here's what Sea Of Tranquility guest co-host Jeff Young said about the album (see 12:50-mark here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdbNnq2L32Q):
"I got a lot to say about this underrated album in their catalog, in the Fleetwood Mac canon, which is Say You Will. And one cool thing is Lindsey did the whole album with the VG-8 Roland–it's like a guitar synthesizer–and the special pickups that he has in his Rick Turner guitar. So it has a very cool sound. He shreds a lot on that album. He gets really aggressive. There's a lot of guitar playing on this album. I think a lot of people miss this record."
Favorite songs are "Murrow" "Everybody Finds Out" "Running Through The Garden" "Steal Your Heart Away" and "Destiny Rules."
Least favorite are the title track (those lyrics), "Silver Girl," and especially "Come" (too heavy for me – I'm a folkie).
Overall, I agree with Jeff Young that it's a tremendously underrated album.
And no, I don't miss Christine. To me, it's a nice of change of pace.
I think this album is under-rated also, although I think it should have been a double album. Lots of great songs on this album.
Favorites are: Peacekeeper, Say You Will, Thrown Down, Steal Your Heart Away, Illume, Miranda, Destiny Rules
SteveMacD
05-17-2020, 10:11 PM
"And one cool thing is Lindsey did the whole album with the VG-8 Roland–it's like a guitar synthesizer–and the special pickups that he has in his Rick Turner guitar.”
That’s probably the least enduring quality of the album for me. I’d much rather have a lot of vintage guitars and amps than that.
And no, I don't miss Christine. To me, it's a nice of change of pace.
I did, but I think they did a good job without her. The title track feels like Stevie consciously trying to write a Christine song and it achieved its goal.
SteveMacD
05-23-2020, 03:56 AM
So, I rewatched THE scene from DR, and there’s a point where Lindsey took it too far. After Stevie says something about a lyric flowing so beautifully, he should have dropped it. A simple “yeah, I can hear that” or something along those lines would have probably lead to more albums. In the context of the past few years, it’s like pick your battles, dude.
jcalzaretta
05-26-2020, 08:33 PM
1. WTWCT. This is fine. Nothing special
2. Murrow. Can do without.
3. Illume. Like it fine. Has some great parts. Obviously meaningful about 9/11
4. Thrown Down. Pure Brilliance
5. Miranda. Love it. Not a fan of the fade out part. But love the song.
6. Red Rover. Don't like it
7. Say You Will. Love it.
8. Peacekeeper. LOVE IT. The vocals are amazing here.
9. Come. Don't like it
10. Smile at you. Ruined. Just left me speechless given the brilliance of the demo.
11. Running Through the Garden. LOVE IT. Wish they kept this in set list.
12. Silver Girl. Garbage
13. Steel Your Heart Away. One of the loveliest songs I ever heard. Absolutely adore this.
14. Bleed to Love Her. LOVE IT
15. Everybody Finds Out. LOVE IT
16. Destiny Rules. LOVE IT
17. Say Goodbye. Great song. Done so well live.
18. Goodbye Baby. Fine.
cbBen
05-26-2020, 11:03 PM
The above matches my evaluation almost exactly, except I like "Murrow" and don't like the title track (the melody fine, the lyrics not so much). I will also say I don't think "Smile At You" was ruined. Remember Stevie was a lot older. They weren't going to recreate that raw anger as effectively. This was about as good as they could do at this point.
johnnystorms
05-31-2020, 04:50 AM
Should have been lead single!! Dance music was exploding, Stevie is/was the star, and Lindsey's production was epic! Pair it with a modern video and i'm sure it would have gotten more attention than Peacekeeper which was too politically charged at the time. I am with you that Say You Will is brilliant and Lindsey did an outstanding job. Stevie seems to jump on the bandwagon if something is not commercially successful. She stated that when she wrote Say You Will she thought instantly it would be a huge hit if she ever did write a hit. They spent so much time on the album and no doubt were disappointed in the sales and airplay. But there are many fans that think the same way if something is not commercially successful. Some of band's best music is the stuff that is not commercially popular.
I agree with Stevie the album could have been a bit shorter but hey.. the more material the better.
Here is why I love Say You Will:
Finally get the great Stevie songs Smile at you, Running through the Garden, and Thrown Down. Wow, she should have coughed them up earlier because these are some of her best written songs. Lindsey does them justice!!!
Illume is an outrageous poem about 9/11. How in the world do you put it to music. Buckingham shines with an angry growing musical orchestra that is so unpredictable that its confusing the first time you hear it. I think he captured the spirt and the unpredictability of 9/11 perfectly. Those that want pop songs can listen to Talk To Me instead.
Come. We get to hear Lindsey at extended play on an album. Nuff said
Everybody Finds Out - is a musical masterpiece and probably top 5 musical pieces from the Mac. The bass lines are out of this world. The percussion is a full orchestra. The music just builds and builds and then explodes. THIS should have been the first single off the album.
I don't think there are duds or any padding on this album. I love the opener, whats the world coming to.
Yes of course Christine would have been the icing on the cake but we cant change that.
This album gets flamed along with TOSOTM and Street Angel yet people will flock to songs on those albums as one of their favorites which is odd to me.
When this CD came out, I wore it out. I used to run down Ocean Drive every night with this CD playing. Gosh remember CD holders? Yeah, I was a bit old fashioned even for 2003 when digital music was coming out.
Its frustrating because Christine would have made the album so much better but she was not there.
As far as the album being too long...….I think Lindsey was very proud of all the songs and did not want to cut any. They all fit so WTH. IMHO Lindsey was just as creative as Tusk. I am not casting judgment but this is an album that I cant understand if you are a Mac fan how you cant appreciate this album. The music is so good even if you stripped all the vocals and singing.
johnnystorms
05-31-2020, 05:05 AM
Exactly
I actually think its a very cleverly written song. Begging someone to stay around and to get them to "dance" i.e. extend the Dance tour
Yep! a high end music video... the band morphing into kids singing out the chorus... def coulda been a hit.. was 5 years after a HUGE hit The Dance.
johnnystorms
05-31-2020, 05:16 AM
I get his point. She made all these poppy, radio friendly songs. Even if they didn't have any new hits, people would want to hear her songs. More so if she had a real presence on the new record.
Even if she's spineless(in regards to saving Lindsey), she is the sound of FM to me. She's the balance that made it all work.
But the concert goers turn out regardless. So why NOT have a hit single to push the record??
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.