Tusk at 40: FM's defining record

[elle]

https://www.theringer.com/music/2019/10/14/20913040/tusk-fleetwood-mac-40th-anniversary-stevie-nicks-mick-fleetwood-lindsey-buckingham

‘Tusk’ at 40: On Fleetwood Mac’s Defining Record

Forty years after its release, the group’s improbably cohesive follow-up to ‘Rumours’ remains the blueprint for what comes after astounding commercial success

By Lindsay Zoladz Oct 14, 2019, 10:49am EDT

Getty Images/Ringer illustration

One rumor goes that Stevie Nicks threatened to leave Fleetwood Mac if they actually called the album Tusk. “There was nothing beautiful or elegant about the word ‘tusk,’” she later said. She’s right: It’s a grunt, a jab, a thudding monosyllable that has none of the musicality of the title Nicks was already dreaming up for her first solo record, Bella Donna. It was also, at least according to another rumor, a dick joke: “I don’t recall it being Mick’s joke about a …,” she trailed off in that interview, as if she couldn’t even bring herself to say it. “That went right over my little prudish head. I wasn’t even told that until after the record was done, and then I liked the title even less.”

Another way of thinking about the title, though, is as an outgrowth of the decorative, costly excess that birthed it: Before Fleetwood Mac even arrived at Studio D at L.A.’s Village Studios in 1978, all sorts of exotic knickknacks were imported onto the premises, transforming the space into a simulacra of an obscenely rich rock star’s home. In the liner notes to the album’s 2004 reissue, Nicks set the scene: “shrunken heads and leis and Polaroids and velvet pillows and saris and sitars and all kinds of wild and crazy instruments and tusks on the console.” Photographs by the nature artist Peter Beard were scattered around for inspiration. “Rare woods from Brazil and volcanic stones from Hawaii went into the decor,” Nicks’s biographer, Stephen Davis, writes. All this ambiance—and Lindsey Buckingham still insisted upon recording some of the damn album in a bathroom.

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Such is, as Mick Fleetwood aptly puts it in his biography, “the duality of Tusk.” A sprawling double album, it’s rife with contradictions and ironies. It was, at the time of its release 40 years ago this week, the most expensive album ever made (and the first album ever to cost more than $1 million to record), but its rough edges and experimental ethos have since made it a source of inspiration within the indie-rock world. (In 2002, art-rockers Camper Van Beethoven released a great, imaginative full-album cover of Tusk.) An intentional departure from the coiled energy of Rumours, Tusk is a record large, strange, and varied enough to contain its exact opposite: It is at once sprawling and intimate, masculine and feminine, successful and failed.

It is also the rare album that could sell more than 4 million copies, spawn six hit singles, and, relatively speaking, still be considered a flop. “I say this without hesitation; as a band we really didn’t give a ****,” Fleetwood writes of the record’s commercial prospects. “Not at all.” Not many artists have to confront the mixed blessing of following up what was then the best-selling record of all time, and no one in Fleetwood Mac would have felt creatively satisfied had they just made Rumours II. Still, few listeners or record executives could have quite anticipated the strange sprawl of Tusk, a record that over the years has earned numerous comparisons to the Beatles’ White Album. (Fleetwood, in his memoir, refers to the group’s 1975 self-titled release as their “‘White’ Album”—but he means that in a different sense.) But time sands all edges. Forty years after its release, Tusk feels not so much like an anomaly as an archetype, the urtext of the Difficult Follow-Up Album, and—wild as this would have seemed at the time of its release—increasingly the consensus choice for Fleetwood Mac’s finest record.

The year before he entered the studio to begin recording Tusk, Lindsey Buckingham saw the Clash live in London. The experience left him electrified, challenged, and a little bit personally offended. In late-’70s Britain, writes Nicks’s biographer Davis, “Fleetwood Mac, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Paul McCartney, Elton John, and all the older musicians were mocked for being out of touch with their audience and reviled as ‘dinosaur bands’ and Boring Old Farts.” Buckingham was then not even 30; he wasn’t about to live up to the Boring Old Fart stereotype. So he chopped off his flowing Led Zeppelin locks and traded in his bell-bottoms for skinny jeans and tailored suits. He started hearing beauty in dissonance, like the way recording on a boom box could give music a stark, compressed sound, or the tone you got from playing percussion not on a drum kit but an empty box of Kleenex.

An underappreciated aftershock of punk’s first wave is the kick in the ass it gave to some of the previous generations’ heroes, pushing some of those “dinosaur bands” to make their most adventurous music in years. Punk dared the Stones to make 1978’s Some Girls, their best and most brash record since Exile on Main St. It’s also the inspiration for some of the great Buckingham compositions on Tusk, from the taut, sneering “What Makes You Think You’re the One” to the haunting, oddly dissonant last-call dirge “That’s All for Everyone.” Buckingham was constantly experimenting in Studio D, searching for undiscovered tones and textures: He got the grumbling, blown-out sound of excitable punk ditty “The Ledge” by tuning his guitar down to sound like a bass. (“It sounds to me like it was put in a cement mixer and almost spat out,” he later said, proudly.) “I remember Lindsey used to make such a horrible sound,” the album’s coproducer, Ken Caillat, said in Ryan Reed’s book Fleetwood Mac FAQ. “He would physically make me distort the guitar so that it sounded like fingernails scraping across a chalkboard. I remember when he was recording ‘Not That Funny,’ he insisted he wanted a really weird-sounding vocal, so he made us tape a microphone to a tile floor, and he was doing a push-up over the microphone, singing, ’Not—that—funny—is it?!’ Anything to make it weirder was better on his songs.”

The Beach Boys, too, cast a long shadow over Tusk, and for several different reasons. Ever the studio rat, Buckingham spent the months leading up to the Tusk sessions listening obsessively to Pet Sounds, trying to deconstruct the production techniques behind that innovative masterpiece. It’s also been reported that Buckingham was granted access to the elusive master tapes of the Beach Boys’ then-unreleased Pet Sounds follow-up Smile, and that the Tusk tracks “That’s All for Everyone” and “Beautiful Child” bear the influence of Brian Wilson’s cutting-edge production. During the Tusk sessions, though, Christine McVie went even straighter to the source—she actually started dating a Beach Boy, the dreamy but ultimately troubled drummer Dennis Wilson.

As a counterbalance to Buckingham’s punk outbursts, Tusk showcases some of McVie’s most straight-forwardly lovely compositions: opener “Over & Over” sets a rose-colored tone, while the understated “Never Make Me Cry” is a perennial tear-jerker. Perhaps the most Rumours-reminiscent cut is McVie’s rousing “Think About Me”—one of Tusk’s few full-band jams. Tusk wouldn’t have confounded listeners if even half its songs sounded like this, but restless shape-shifting was also a consistent part of Fleetwood Mac’s ethos, even from the Peter Green days. “They had been a blues band, then a jam band, then a rock band, then a soft rock supernova,” Davis writes. “The Rumours groove had to be part of a progressive continuum, not the endgame.”

One of the most acrimonious fights during Rumours was over the exclusion of Nicks’s masterpiece “Silver Springs.” The band had to make some cuts to keep Rumours confined to a single LP, and when it came time for the final sequencing, the languorous, slow-tempo-ed “Springs” was first on the chopping block. “I started to scream bloody murder and probably said every horribly mean thing you could possibly say to another human being and walked back in the studio and completely flipped out,” Nicks said years later, recalling the conversation with Fleetwood when she first learned the song’s fate.

She got her revenge on Tusk. While Buckingham often approaches songwriting like a code to be cracked (“I’ve learned more about the mathematics of songwriting—how to fit pieces together, line length, timing chords and melodies,” he said around the time of Tusk’s release), Stevie’s process was more intuitive, her songs less rigorously structured. She thrived in open space and sprawl, something Tusk generously supplied. Her songs on the record are loose, unhurried, and exploratory, from the poignant ballad “Storm” to the meditative confessional “Beautiful Child.” The bluesy rocker “Angel” showcases a gravely, newly mature tone of Nicks’s voice that she’d explore further on Bella Donna, while the fan-favorite “Sisters of the Moon” furthered her witchy self-mythology: “A black widow spider makes / More sound than she,” Nicks sang, “and black moons in those eyes of hers / Made more sense to me.”

Her most enduring offering, though, is “Sara”—more of an incantation than a pop song, though it was still Tusk’s highest-charting hit. Her first demo of the track was 16 minutes long; a gorgeous nine-minute take was included on Tusk’s 2004 reissue. In his biography Gold Dust Woman, Stephen Davis calls “Sara” “the most asked-about song by Stevie’s interviewers, even more than ‘Rhiannon.’” Their first question, of course, was almost always, “Who’s Sara?” but that was a misleadingly literal thing to ask of a Stevie Nicks song. “It’s not about Sara [Rector], who was one of my best friends—even though everybody thinks it is,” she said many years later. “But it was really about what was going on with all of us at the time … some songs are about a lot of things.” “Sara” is an impressionistic swirl of all that was happening in Stevie Nicks’s mind in the heady days of 1978, from her ill-fated affair with bandmate Mick Fleetwood to her indecision about whether or not to pursue a solo career. It was a blustery brew but, as she’d tell us a few songs later, she had always been a storm.

While she believed Tusk to be “a spectacular record,” soon-to-be solo star Nicks resented the time its recording required of her. “Tusk took us 13 months to make, which is ridiculous,” she said when promoting Bella Donna in 1981. “I was there in the studio every day—or almost every day—but I probably only worked for two months. The other 11 months I did nothing, and you start to lose it after a while if you’re inactive. You see, Lindsey, Chris, John, and Mick all play, and I don’t. So most of the time I’d be looking at them through the window in the control room. After four or five hours, they’d forget I was even there, they’d be so wrapped up in little details. It was very frustrating.”

One of the approximately 3 billion things I adore about Tusk is that it contains maybe the greatest, and definitely the most petty, album credit of all time:

Lindsay Zoladz
✔
@lindsayzoladz
I completely forgot the production credit on Tusk is “Fleetwood Mac (Special Thanks from the Band to Lindsey Buckingham)” !!!! I will love this petty messy band until I die

View image on Twitter

Buckingham was, more than anyone, the sonic mastermind behind Tusk. But the very fabric of Tusk is also variety, collaboration, and bricolage—an alchemy he never could have achieved alone. If Rumours was the result of a handful of passionate, often-inebriated people standing elbow-to-elbow in a too-small room, Tusk is the sound of them stomping into their respective corners. To love Fleetwood Mac is to marvel at the beautiful absurdity that these five very different people were ever in a band together, let alone a band whose songs could hang together so well. In this sense, the improbably cohesive Tusk just might be their defining record.

Maybe it was just ahead of its time. Tusk’s double-album breadth might have stunted its commercial prospects in 1979—the 2XLP retailed for $16.98, around $50 adjusted for inflation—but in the more-is-more logic of the streaming era, it seems downright normal. (Drake’s mammoth-selling 2018 album Scorpion, for one example, is 15 minutes longer than Tusk.) Forty years later, it remains the blueprint for what comes after astounding commercial success, if an artist is too itchy and creative to simply rest on their laurels. Its forward-thinking ethos has kept it fresh all this time. “Tusk is not going to sound dated in five or 10 years,” the writer Blair Jackson predicted all the way back in 1981, “and I would be willing to bet that a lot more people will slowly be convinced of the album’s greatness than will forget all about it.” You can say that again.

[bombaysaffires]

Tusk had 6 hit singles??

[Netter75]

Tusk had 6 hit singles??

Yeah you don't remember "Angel" lighting up the charts? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[michelej1]

Angel and Sara do sell that album.

Title tune became classic, too, eventually. I suppose I must thank Mick’s USC inspiration, though I would rather forget him.

[bombaysaffires]

hmm... official singles I can recall are

Tusk
Sara
Think About Me
Sisters of the Moon

and the last two were not big hits. (Though I never understood why TAM didn't do well)

[HomerMcvie]

hmm... official singles I can recall are

Tusk
Sara
Think About Me
Sisters of the Moon

and the last two were not big hits. (Though I never understood why TAM didn't do well)

Exactly! Six singles, my ass...

TAM has always been one of my top ten(or five) FM songs. I NEVER tire of it.

[Macfan4life]

I love Tusk. I love how Christine describes it as so "underproduced." Is that not the perfect word to describe it? Its hard to explain so I thought she nailed it with that one word description.
Lindsey sure went out of his way to try and make it the least commercial project ever.
Double album, album cover, underproduced, track listing, and yes many of his songs.

I sometimes wonder if Lindsey had compromised with the band and made a 1 disc album that limited some of the album's oddities what it would have sounded like.

I agree Homer. I think the lead single should have been Think About Me. Its the most traditional FM song ever and could have easily been on Rumours. Tusk (song) is a FM and Lindsey concert staple but I never ever hear it on the radio. Classic rock radio pretends it does not exist even though it was a top 10 single.

[aleuzzi]

hmm... official singles I can recall are

Tusk
Sara
Think About Me
Sisters of the Moon

and the last two were not big hits. (Though I never understood why TAM didn't do well)

Think About Me was a second-tier hit, reaching #20. It’s the Love in Store of TUSK. Sisters, on the other hand, could hardly be considered a hit, more of a rock radio staple. And even that status was brief. It’s primarily remembered for once being a stupendous stage moment for the singer and band on two tours. Think About Me is still played occasionally in stores and on various 70s stations.

[jbrownsjr]

Angel
Sara
Think About Me
Sisters of the Moon
Never Forget
That's All For Everyone
Brown Eyes
Never Make Me Cry
Over and Over
Beautiful Child


Those Are My Highlights

The re-master sparkles on my speakers.

[FuzzyPlum]

hmm... official singles I can recall are

Tusk
Sara
Think About Me
Sisters of the Moon

and the last two were not big hits. (Though I never understood why TAM didn't do well)


Are the other 2 'hit singles' considered to be Angel and Not That Funny?
Goodness me, they each charted precisely nowhere, in no countries. Not even #87 in The Netherlands or anything.

[bombaysaffires]

Are the other 2 'hit singles' considered to be Angel and Not That Funny?
Goodness me, they each charted precisely nowhere, in no countries. Not even #87 in The Netherlands or anything.

Wikipedia says Not That Funny was released as a single only in the UK.,.:shrug:

[bombaysaffires]

Think About Me was a second-tier hit, reaching #20. It’s the Love in Store of TUSK. Sisters, on the other hand, could hardly be considered a hit, more of a rock radio staple. And even that status was brief. It’s primarily remembered for once being a stupendous stage moment for the singer and band on two tours. Think About Me is still played occasionally in stores and on various 70s stations.

I get your point and don't disagree with that, but just to nitpick the songs a little--- TAM is such a better single than Love in Store, which always sounded somehow unfinished to me, like there were layers missing. Its production sounds very....emtpy.... and as a result rather cold and lifeless to me. Whereas Think About Me has such great energy and is bouncy and happy and has all those yummy layers of production that make it closer as others said to previous Mac singles. And it's another CM/LB vocal blend song.

[FuzzyPlum]

Wikipedia says Not That Funny was released as a single only in the UK.,.:shrug:

It says UK, Germany and Netherlands.
Awful choice for a single release. Perhaps as punk was so big at that time in the UK they may have thought NTF to be amongst the must punkiest of the Tusk songs and therefore likely to do well. I'd have chosen almost any other Tusk song ahead of it as a single.

[HomerMcvie]

I get your point and don't disagree with that, but just to nitpick the songs a little--- TAM is such a better single than Love in Store, which always sounded somehow unfinished to me, like there were layers missing. Its production sounds very....emtpy.... and as a result rather cold and lifeless to me. Whereas Think About Me has such great energy and is bouncy and happy and has all those yummy layers of production that make it closer as others said to previous Mac singles. And it's another CM/LB vocal blend song.

It's the perfect song.


If you want to know what pleases me in a song, TAM is IT.
Perfect rock beat
Catchy chorus
Great guitar solo
Lindsey and Chris duetting!!!!!!!

Have I mentioned that I NEVER tire of it? It's made every greatest hits disc I've ever made.

[button-lip]

My Tusk highlights:

1. I Know I'm not Wrong (forever and ever my favorite Tusk Song)
2. The Ledge
3. Tusk
4. Think About Me
5. Angel
6. What Makes you Think you're The One
7. Over and Over
8. Sara

:]:]

[BombaySapphire3]

I don't believe that Angel was ever a single.. It got airplay on rock radio for the first few months after Tusk's release. It would have made a better 4th single than Sisters though as it is more poppy and catchy even though Sisters is the superior song IMO.

[jbrownsjr]

I don't believe that Angel was ever a single.. It got airplay on rock radio for the first few months after Tusk's release. It would have made a better 4th single than Sisters though as it is more poppy and catchy even though Sisters is the superior song IMO.

I think Never Forget, Angel and Tusk would have been good choices.

[David]

I think Never Forget, Angel and Tusk would have been good choices.

From the point of view of Warner Brothers, the traditional idea of a radio-friendly single that would appeal to a mass audience was very strong.

But from the point of view of the band (or at least some of the band), that idea was tiresome. Why give the radio audience what it expects? Give it something it doesn’t expect, like Tusk, a track that didn’t sound remotely like anything else on the radio in the US in 1979. Tusk was a brilliant idea for a first single, not only because it’s a great track but because it’s a completely new idea for a radio single—it’s an anti-single. Its response on radio was mostly positive on its own terms (everyone was talking about it in 1979—it wasn’t flying under anyone’s radar), and that weirdness combined with its sonic power (a jungle statement) also made it a longstanding artifact of USC Trojan culture in the years after. (I attended many, many Trojan football games at the Coliseum, and Tusk at halftime was always rowdy and popular. Unlike a lot of other halftime nonsense, it energized the stadium.)

After Tusk, it didn’t matter what the singles were. Nothing was going to make the album sell millions more, and the tour itself was pushing the weirdness quotient that the band wanted to push that year (where songs onstage lost all resemblance to their sleek, smooth studio counterparts).

Before June 1982, nobody knew what Mirage was going to sound like. Tusk succeeded in that way.

[jbrownsjr]

From the point of view of Warner Brothers, the traditional idea of a radio-friendly single that would appeal to a mass audience was very strong.

But from the point of view of the band (or at least some of the band), that idea was tiresome. Why give the radio audience what it expects? Give it something it doesn’t expect, like Tusk, a track that didn’t sound remotely like anything else on the radio in the US in 1979. Tusk was a brilliant idea for a first single, not only because it’s a great track but because it’s a completely new idea for a radio single—it’s an anti-single. Its response on radio was mostly positive on its own terms (everyone was talking about it in 1979—it wasn’t flying under anyone’s radar), and that weirdness combined with its sonic power (a jungle statement) also made it a longstanding artifact of USC Trojan culture in the years after. (I attended many, many Trojan football games at the Coliseum, and Tusk at halftime was always rowdy and popular. Unlike a lot of other halftime nonsense, it energized the stadium.)

After Tusk, it didn’t matter what the singles were. Nothing was going to make the album sell millions more, and the tour itself was pushing the weirdness quotient that the band wanted to push that year (where songs onstage lost all resemblance to their sleek, smooth studio counterparts).

Before June 1982, nobody knew what Mirage was going to sound like. Tusk succeeded in that way.

I completely agree. I love Tusk as the first single. I was commenting on what would have been more radio friendly. I even like Tusk's running order. And I did NOT when I first bought it.

[Jondalar]

I love the experimentalness of Tusk, Honey Hi and Brown Eyes.

[Macfan4life]

I don't think anyone disagrees that Tusk was experimental and sort of anti-corporate rock. Bravo. It was a huge risk to dare to be so different.
HOWEVER, lets talk about the band post-Tusk. IMHO life after Tusk killed the band's creativity. While I like Mirage, it was an album that swung way too far into the pop/adult contemporary sphere that was so anti-Tusk. It was purposely commercial almost sweet bubble gum high pop greatness. Then Tango came along and the band again was under HUGE pressure for a commercial success after 5 years apart. We get sweet 80s synth pop. So while Tusk was considered a refreshing change, its impact sort of ruined their rock chops to some extent IMHO.

[sasja]

What Makes You Think You're the One ?

Awesomeness for 40 years long! Still just LOVE that song SO much!:thumbsup::nod:

[bombaysaffires]

I don't think anyone disagrees that Tusk was experimental and sort of anti-corporate rock. Bravo. It was a huge risk to dare to be so different.
HOWEVER, lets talk about the band post-Tusk. IMHO life after Tusk killed the band's creativity. While I like Mirage, it was an album that swung way too far into the pop/adult contemporary sphere that was so anti-Tusk. It was purposely commercial almost sweet bubble gum high pop greatness. Then Tango came along and the band again was under HUGE pressure for a commercial success after 5 years apart. We get sweet 80s synth pop. So while Tusk was considered a refreshing change, its impact sort of ruined their rock chops to some extent IMHO.

One review (Rolling Stone maybe?) described the whole album as having a music-box quality and to me that's an apt description of the sort of..... tinkly....elements on most of the songs.

[aleuzzi]

Issuing “Tusk” (the song) as the lead single was the right choice. So left field and so bizarre in comparison to anything from the previous two records (or eight records). It’s not only my favorite song from the album but one of my favorites from the entire band catalogue—as iconic and palate cleansing as “Hypnotized” or “Albatross,” but weirder, so much weirder.

The lush, mysterious “Sara” makes for great contrast. “Think About Me” lands somewhere between the elegant folk of “Storms” and the frenzied rockabilly of “”That’s Enough for Me.”

[HomerMcvie]

Issuing “Tusk” (the song) as the lead single was the right choice. So left field and so bizarre in comparison to anything from the previous two records (or eight records). It’s not only my favorite song from the album but one of my favorites from the entire band catalogue—as iconic and palate cleansing as “Hypnotized” or “Albatross,” but weirder, so much weirder.

The lush, mysterious “Sara” makes for great contrast. “Think About Me” lands somewhere between the elegant folk of “Storms” and the frenzied rockabilly of “”That’s Enough for Me.”

While I do agree that Tusk was the best first single(given how.....DIFFERENT the album was), but I think that Think About Me might have pulled people in more, giving them more of a Rumours vibe. Who knows, maybe it would have sold a bit more? 4M is huge numbers now, but it wasn't then, following their career defining album.

Sara was a good followup. As a former $tevie fan, I was always amazed that Angel didn't make it as a single.

Looking back, there really weren't many "hits" on it(radio listening wise).

[Macfan4life]

One review (Rolling Stone maybe?) described the whole album as having a music-box quality and to me that's an apt description of the sort of..... tinkly....elements on most of the songs.
Yes. The band (except Lindsey) felt they had made a mistake with Tusk (shortly after Tusk, not today) and were always chasing pop radio. So while Tusk was anti-corporate and anti-commercial, its impact on the band made them more corporate and more commercial with their final 2 albums with this line up. While I appreciate Tusk, the Tusk hangover impacted their greatness IMHO. I don't see Mirage and Tango as having the depth of greatness their first 3 albums had with this line up.

[BLY]

Yes. The band (except Lindsey) felt they had made a mistake with Tusk (shortly after Tusk, not today) and were always chasing pop radio. So while Tusk was anti-corporate and anti-commercial, its impact on the band made them more corporate and more commercial with their final 2 albums with this line up. While I appreciate Tusk, the Tusk hangover impacted their greatness IMHO. I don't see Mirage and Tango as having the depth of greatness their first 3 albums had with this line up.


I think the reason that Mirage and Tango didn’t have the “depth of greatness” was largely due to the solo career focus that was in full force from 1981-1987.

[Macfan4life]

I think the reason that Mirage and Tango didn’t have the “depth of greatness” was largely due to the solo career focus that was in full force from 1981-1987.
I see your point and would agree a tiny bit. The bigger picture is that while the band was creative naturally for their first 2 albums together and very creative for #3. The blowback from Tusk changed the band to be chasing commercial success. It was pivotal for the band for Mirage to chart hit singles and be radio friendly (aka music box). Even more so for Tango. I believe even in Mick's first book Lindsey was under tremendous pressure for the album to get Mick out of bankruptcy. My only point is that something that is not talked about (much). While Tusk is applauded these days for the risk the band took, there is no doubt it changed them forever and seeking commercial success and so anti-Tusk the rest of their album existence.
That is what irks me about Tusk. Not the album itself but the post Tusk era i.e. over compensating future projects. While Tusk is underproduced Mirage and Tango are way overproduced.

[BLY]

I see your point and would agree a tiny bit. The bigger picture is that while the band was creative naturally for their first 2 albums together and very creative for #3. The blowback from Tusk changed the band to be chasing commercial success. It was pivotal for the band for Mirage to chart hit singles and be radio friendly (aka music box). Even more so for Tango. I believe even in Mick's first book Lindsey was under tremendous pressure for the album to get Mick out of bankruptcy. My only point is that something that is not talked about (much). While Tusk is applauded these days for the risk the band took, there is no doubt it changed them forever and seeking commercial success and so anti-Tusk the rest of their album existence.
That is what irks me about Tusk. Not the album itself but the post Tusk era i.e. over compensating future projects. While Tusk is underproduced Mirage and Tango are way overproduced.


Yes..I would agree with your point. Let’s also add the drugs and all the obsessive life styles that was spinning out of control from 1981-1987

[aleuzzi]

While I do agree that Tusk was the best first single(given how.....DIFFERENT the album was), but I think that Think About Me might have pulled people in more, giving them more of a Rumours vibe. Who knows, maybe it would have sold a bit more? 4M is huge numbers now, but it wasn't then, following their career defining album.

Sara was a good followup. As a former $tevie fan, I was always amazed that Angel didn't make it as a single.

Looking back, there really weren't many "hits" on it(radio listening wise).

Think About Me---what a great tune. But I like the earlier 1978 version (on the deluxe edition) MUCH better. It's catchy, direct, Christine's voice is not double-tracked, Lindsey isn't hogging the mic, the organ and keys are very present. And you can hear these cool, industrial percussion things going on in the background. I think if the track had been built up in a way that captured the spirit of this initial version, it could have been a BIG statement of girl pop...Still, I do like the finished album version. Just not as much as I do the 1978 version.

[jcalzaretta]

The list price of the album was crazy for the time. And a radio station played the whole album. If neither of them were a factor, I would have said Think About Me for the lead. I am ok with Tusk then Sara. Of course LB wanted his single released first because he wanted the contrast. LB would never have agreed to Think About Me. Also, I do think Think About Me as the lead would have misled buyers into thinking they got Rumours II. Someone might have considered that as well. That could have turned off fans. Who knows. In the end - 40 years later. The songs that hold up - Tusk, Think About Me, I Know I'm Not Wrong. Over and Over and all of Stevie's.

[greendaze5]

I always got the impression that Christine was reluctant to do her 'Tusk' songs on stage during that tour.

Whereas Stevie and Lindsey did 3 to 4 of their songs live, Christine only did 'Over and Over' (and 'Think About Me' only here and there).

What gives? :confused:

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[HomerMcvie]

I always got the impression that Christine was reluctant to do her 'Tusk' songs on stage during that tour.

Whereas Stevie and Lindsey did 3 to 4 of their songs live, Christine only did 'Over and Over' (and 'Think About Me' only here and there).

What gives? :confused:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rFOZTi0fE7o" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
They did Brown Eyes on the Tusk Tour.

[greendaze5]

They did Brown Eyes on the Tusk Tour.

Hmm, I think 'Brown Eyes' wasn't until the 1982, 1987, and 1990 tours.

Can anyone shed some light on Christine's 'Tusk' songs during the 1979/1980 tour? I'm still pretty sure she only did 'Over and Over', and 'Think About Me' (but sporadically).

[HomerMcvie]

Hmm, I think 'Brown Eyes' wasn't until the 1982, 1987, and 1990 tours.

Can anyone shed some light on Christine's 'Tusk' songs during the 1979/1980 tour? I'm still pretty sure she only did 'Over and Over', and 'Think About Me' (but sporadically).
I was a kid(and was sick as a dog, but begged my mom to let me go), but Tusk was my first FM concert. I'm 99% certain they played Brown Eyes.

[HomerMcvie]

Hmm, I think 'Brown Eyes' wasn't until the 1982, 1987, and 1990 tours.

Can anyone shed some light on Christine's 'Tusk' songs during the 1979/1980 tour? I'm still pretty sure she only did 'Over and Over', and 'Think About Me' (but sporadically).
For a year or so, I could recite the set list in order.

Those brain cells departed, some considerable time ago.

[vivfox]

I was a kid(and was sick as a dog, but begged my mom to let me go), but Tusk was my first FM concert. I'm 99% certain they played Brown Eyes.


Brown Eyes made its concert debut on the Mirage tour.

[cbBen]

"That's All For Everyone" and "Walk A Thin Line" are my favorites.

[David]

Hmm, I think 'Brown Eyes' wasn't until the 1982, 1987, and 1990 tours.

Can anyone shed some light on Christine's 'Tusk' songs during the 1979/1980 tour? I'm still pretty sure she only did 'Over and Over', and 'Think About Me' (but sporadically).That's my understanding. In fact, there were actually entire shows where Chris did none of her 1979 songs (Oh Daddy was pulled in for Over and Over for a time.) But have you heard the rehearsal audio of the band running through Brown Eyes, Honey Hi, Over and Over, and Think About Me? The band sounds really good on all of them. I think there's an old thread or two about this if you want to pursue it.

Edit: Adding the audio for the above-mentioned tour rehearsal (https://soundcloud.com/clivebrook/sets/tusk-rehearsals-vol-1).

[BLY]

It would have been great if the MAC would have done Tusk in its entirety. I know it would have been such a risk but a great idea after the 2+ years of touring Rumours. Even if it was just a select group of shows. It was another missed opportunity. If the 5 were together today it could have been a nice 40th celebration. A dude can dream.😎

[jmn3]

It would have been great if the MAC would have done Tusk in its entirety. I know it would have been such a risk but a great idea after the 2+ years of touring Rumours. Even if it was just a select group of shows. It was another missed opportunity. If the 5 were together today it could have been a nice 40th celebration. A dude can dream.😎

Haha, they could never even play Rumours in it's entirety (close, but never the whole thing). There is zero chance they'd ever do Tusk as a whole unfortunately.

I thought that the 2009 Tour should have been a celebration of the 30th anniversary of Tusk. Obviously, it would have been without Christine, but I thought a better idea than Unleashed :rolleyes: would have been to do a mini-Tusk set. Maybe 6-7 songs mid-show... I Know I'm Not Wrong/Angel/Walk a Thin Line/Storms/Brown Eyes/Sisters/Tusk...flanked by the normal setlist. Certainly a better reason to tour than whatever they trotted out as their reason in 2009. And yes, I just suggested Lindsey and Stevie do Brown Eyes sans Christine. It couldn't be worse than Say You Love Me or Stevie's discombobulated Don't Stop lyrics. :sorry:

[BLY]

[QUOTE=jmn3;1254668]Haha, they could never even play Rumours in it's entirety (close, but never the whole thing). This would have been easy to add I Don’t Want to Know to the play list and do Silver Springs as the encore. Again missed opportunity.

[Macfan4life]

The list price of the album was crazy for the time. And a radio station played the whole album. If neither of them were a factor, I would have said Think About Me for the lead. I am ok with Tusk then Sara. Of course LB wanted his single released first because he wanted the contrast. LB would never have agreed to Think About Me. Also, I do think Think About Me as the lead would have misled buyers into thinking they got Rumours II. Someone might have considered that as well. That could have turned off fans. Who knows. In the end - 40 years later. The songs that hold up - Tusk, Think About Me, I Know I'm Not Wrong. Over and Over and all of Stevie's.
LOL the fans were already turned off. Today Tusk is revered but the Mac took a tremendous beating because of Tusk. Rock radio was not going to play Tusk or Sara. Remember during the 1982 US Festival when Lindsey introduced a song from Tusk and Christine explains "the album you guys all hated."
The Mac gets played every day in heavy rotation on classic rock stations across the country. However, anything from Tusk is hardly played. I remember there was a local radio station that used to count down music's biggest "turkeys" on Thanksgiving day. The song Tusk was always in the top 10.

[Netter75]

That's my understanding. In fact, there were actually entire shows where Chris did none of her 1979 songs (Oh Daddy was pulled in for Over and Over for a time.) But have you heard the rehearsal audio of the band running through Brown Eyes, Honey Hi, Over and Over, and Think About Me? The band sounds really good on all of them. I think there's an old thread or two about this if you want to pursue it.

Edit: Adding the audio for the above-mentioned tour rehearsal (https://soundcloud.com/clivebrook/sets/tusk-rehearsals-vol-1).

I hadn't heard some of that rehearsal audio before. I'm surprised how great Honey Hi sounds. Stevie and Christine's harmonies are excellent. They could definitely have included that song in some sort of mid-set acoustic section as a happy alternative to Storms or something.

It's honestly shocking that Think About Me didn't get played very often (being a minor single and the only Rumours-y song on the album) while the dirge Over and Over did. Not complaining, those harmonies are excellent, but that would've been the LAST song I would have expected them to play out of her set of songs. But then I'd say the same about Oh Daddy and they played that on 3 world tours :laughs:

Brown Eyes should always be in the Mac setlist. It sounded soooooo good on the Mirage and Tango tours. Never Forget might have made a cute encore closer too with the harmonies.

[greendaze5]

Edit: Adding the audio for the above-mentioned tour rehearsal (https://soundcloud.com/clivebrook/sets/tusk-rehearsals-vol-1).

Wow! 'Honey Hi' (live)!!!!!!!! :nod:

Thanks for posting! :xoxo:

[bombaysaffires]

Wow, Stevie's vocals sound AWFUL. Dreams is a mess, she doesn't even know the words, and Rhiannon is a sh&t show as well.

She pulls it out for Sara at least.

[jbrownsjr]

Wow, Stevie's vocals sound AWFUL. Dreams is a mess, she doesn't even know the words, and Rhiannon is a sh&t show as well.

She pulls it out for Sara at least.

Haha! I was casually listening to Dreams and went.. "ewwww, where are we in the song???"

[vivfox]

It would have been great if the MAC would have done Tusk in its entirety.


I've never been a fan of tribute bands but a small group of musicians from various bands did get together to perform Tusk from the first song to the last. They were very good. This was around 2008 probably. I went with another Ledgie.

[nicepace]

Can anyone shed some light on Christine's 'Tusk' songs during the 1979/1980 tour?

There are probably plenty of setlists from that tour as well as other FM tours at www.setlist.fm .

[BLY]

As I was listening to several tracks today from Tusk the one thing I wish Lindsey would have done was to add Christine and Stevie’s vocals to more of his tracks. Save Me a Place, That’s All For Everyone and Walk a Thin Line comes to mind.

[Macfan4life]

As I was listening to several tracks today from Tusk the one thing I wish Lindsey would have done was to add Christine and Stevie’s vocals to more of his tracks. Save Me a Place, That’s All For Everyone and Walk a Thin Line comes to mind.
And what...make Tusk a full band effort? :eek: LOL

Some including Lindsey may say part of Tusk was Lindsey's first solo effort. He did say exactly that right after Tango comparing making both of the albums to the same process and formula. Tango started out as a Lindsey solo album and much of it was recorded by himself in his home studio.

[jbrownsjr]

And what...make Tusk a full band effort? :eek: LOL

Some including Lindsey may say part of Tusk was Lindsey's first solo effort. He did say exactly that right after Tango comparing making both of the albums to the same process and formula. Tango started out as a Lindsey solo album and much of it was recorded by himself in his home studio.

Don't forget SYW. And then BuckVie had a few tunes already recorded.

[sue]

Don't forget SYW. And then BuckVie had a few tunes already recorded.

How could we forget SYW...one of my favourite albums.
Ssssh but I actually prefer it to TITN.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Speaking of Tusk Rehearsals:

Does anybody have "Oh Daddy" from 10/19? That's the only track I'm missing from that day.

Thanks!!

[aleuzzi]

Angel
Sara
Think About Me
Sisters of the Moon
Never Forget
That's All For Everyone
Brown Eyes
Never Make Me Cry
Over and Over
Beautiful Child


Those Are My Highlights

The re-master sparkles on my speakers.

My highlights:

Think About Me
Save Me a Place
Sara
Storms
Not That Funny
Angel
Brown Eyes

And all of side 4

[jbrownsjr]

My highlights:

Think About Me
Save Me a Place
Sara
Storms
Not That Funny
Angel
Brown Eyes

And all of side 4

I love the rehearsals of Save Me A Place with Christine on guitar. Also, the harmonies on that song. And I also love the long version of Not That Funny (Mirage) on the upright. Would love to have seen Don't Stop on the Upright on the HBO special.

[BLY]

I love the rehearsals of Save Me A Place with Christine on guitar. Also, the harmonies on that song. And I also love the long version of Not That Funny (Mirage) on the upright. Would love to have seen Don't Stop on the Upright on the HBO special.



It’s so nice to see posts that still exists that I can actually agree with. Save Me a Place with Chris on guitar the three part harmonies.......��

[jbrownsjr]

It’s so nice to see posts that still exists that I can actually agree with. Save Me a Place with Chris on guitar the three part harmonies.......��

It's just really cool to see them playing as a band.

On the albums:

In their history (Rumours 5) They've also had a back log of songs. It's just that during Tusk and after. LB started recording without them. Then either leaving members off, or adding them later. I think that's my main problem with some of the final material.

Having said that, his work with Christine on Mirage and Tango is impressive. SYW, not so much of a chemistry even though some great songs came out of it.

[aleuzzi]

It’s so nice to see posts that still exists that I can actually agree with. Save Me a Place with Chris on guitar the three part harmonies.......��

I never understood why LB didn't exploit those gorgeous three-part harmonies (where both Christine and Stevie kick some serious butt). The lp version is lovely with a hundred Lindseys harmonizing with each other, but think of how much more human and exciting those three voices might have been!

It's for this reason that I particularly love all of side 4. Honey Hi--the harmonies! Never Forget--the harmonies! Beautiful Child--the descants! Walk a Thin Line--the harmonies!

[aleuzzi]

It's just really cool to see them playing as a band.

On the albums:

In their history (Rumours 5) They've also had a back log of songs. It's just that during Tusk and after. LB started recording without them. Then either leaving members off, or adding them later. I think that's my main problem with some of the final material.

Having said that, his work with Christine on Mirage and Tango is impressive. SYW, not so much of a chemistry even though some great songs came out of it.

Agreed. The live three-part harmonies on Isn't it Midnight and Eyes of the World are fantastic. Why, oh why were they not considered for their respective albums? Think of how cool Big Love would have been if all three of them were singing on it. When all three voices are singing on The Dance's Silver Springs, I get chills.

Love SYW as a testament to the duo's continued viability as songwriters. The set is strengthened by the trio's instrumentation. But it's so bifurcated. Christine is sorely missed.

[Macfan4life]

I love the rehearsals of Save Me A Place with Christine on guitar. Also, the harmonies on that song. And I also love the long version of Not That Funny (Mirage) on the upright. Would love to have seen Don't Stop on the Upright on the HBO special.
A-men
Sadly Chris retired the upright after Mirage. Loved watching her play Sara and Not That Funny. It would be a dream to see Don't Stop
IMHO when the upright left the stage, the Mac was never the same

[HomerMcvie]

A-men
Sadly Chris retired the upright after Mirage. Loved watching her play Sara and Not That Funny. It would be a dream to see Don't Stop
IMHO when the upright left the stage, the Mac was never the same

Mirage was really the end of them as being "just a band". Big production started taking over by Tango. Stevie's backup singers, and off stage keyboard players. :mad:

[David]

I think Chris played both Don’t Stop and Songbird on her Yamaha grand (or the Hamilton before that). When I was ahem much younger, I used to throw sheet music and aluminum drink coasters into the grand piano to simulate the honky-tonky sound Christine got for Sara and Not That Funny. It’s actually easier to tack a grand piano than an upright because the iron plate, the soundboard, the bridge and the strings are all horizontal—so bits of trash can be added under the lid and will just lie there. For an upright, you have to construct an entire mechanical rigmarole that offsets by pedal, and what teenager has the wherewithal to do that while his parents aren’t looking (as he trashes their Yamaha C7)?

Tacking the piano sounds as if it was originally Lindsey’s idea for the tour. But if Stevie played the tack piano originally on the demo, it may have been one of her friends’ idea—maybe Tom.

[David]

Mirage was really the end of them as being "just a band". Big production started taking over by Tango. Stevie's backup singers, and off stage keyboard players. :mad:True. Although many of us forget that even during, say, the Tusk and Mirage tours, there was more than one extra guy playing something or other. Ray Lindsey, of course, playing rhythm guitar on Second Hand News, Gypsy, and Go Your Own Way. Jeff Sova played a tape of all that Dodger Stadium noise on Tusk and also played an Oberheim or something to simulate some brass (it didn’t sound like brass back then—it sounded like a synthesizer saw wave). Sova also played a synth pad on Hold Me in 1982. And Tony Todaro played drums on his own kit on Tusk in 1980—you could see him in silhouette playing behind Mick at the Hollywood Bowl.

But these guys didn’t swamp the show by any means, or detract any attention from the four main instrumentalists. So, yes, the nonsense started in 1987 with digital instrumentation. Remember Mick’s nonsense on World Turning that year with the Atari vest? I doubt he was triggering absolutely everything we heard—which sounded like a film soundtrack orchestra: swelling strings and brass, Mick’s digitized shouting, the percussive stuff from him tapping his vest, etc. Dan Garfield added all sorts of stuff offstage to most of the set, including Seven Wonders, Gold Dust Woman, Everywhere, and Little Lies. A few years afterward, he even sold his rig and modules on eBay.

This past year’s tour was ridiculous on that front. Weren’t there something like 14 people onstage? One of the reviews in the paper even called them out on it. It was certainly the first time that Fleetwood Mac ever played with two Hammond B3s live. Why on earth . . . ?! Why does any live outfit need two B3s?

[HomerMcvie]

True. Although many of us forget that even during, say, the Tusk and Mirage tours, there was more than one extra guy playing something or other. Ray Lindsey, of course, playing rhythm guitar on Second Hand News, Gypsy, and Go Your Own Way. Jeff Sova played a tape of all that Dodger Stadium noise on Tusk and also played an Oberheim or something to simulate some brass (it didn’t sound like brass back then—it sounded like a synthesizer saw wave). Sova also played a synth pad on Hold Me in 1982. And Tony Todaro played drums on his own kit on Tusk in 1980—you could see him in silhouette playing behind Mick at the Hollywood Bowl.

But these guys didn’t swamp the show by any means, or detract any attention from the four main instrumentalists. So, yes, the nonsense started in 1987 with digital instrumentation. Remember Mick’s nonsense on World Turning that year with the Atari vest? I doubt he was triggering absolutely everything we heard—which sounded like a film soundtrack orchestra: swelling strings and brass, Mick’s digitized shouting, the percussive stuff from him tapping his vest, etc. Dan Garfield added all sorts of stuff offstage to most of the set, including Seven Wonders, Gold Dust Woman, Everywhere, and Little Lies. A few years afterward, he even sold his rig and modules on eBay.

This past year’s tour was ridiculous on that front. Weren’t there something like 14 people onstage? One of the reviews in the paper even called them out on it. It was certainly the first time that Fleetwood Mac ever played with two Hammond B3s live. Why on earth . . . ?! Why does any live outfit need two B3s?

I was going to mention that. I watched the Tusk doc last night, and was going to mention the CHEESY "horn" parts he was playing during Tusk. I'd call it more like a flute sound. Is that the best horn sound keys could get back then?

I was beginning to play keyboards by 1987, but I was POOR, and a Rhodes and some Korg synth(it's been so long now, I can't remember what model) was about the best I could afford. Wish I had that Rhodes now! I sold it for $100(I paid $400) to a friend. They're going for about 2K now.

Mick's Vesturbation was just about the dumbest thing the band ever did, live.

Really, I see the need for a second guitar and a second key player(or ONE that does both[Brett]).

Two B3's are needed, because they need someone who can actually still play one.:p Sorry, Christine is showing the effects of being a senior citizen.:shocked:

As easy as it it to mock the 14 people on stage, the Eagles do it, too. Two non member key players, 4 horns, and an extra drummer. Extra guitar player, too, if you count Steuart as a non member. And I'm still leaving out Deacon and Vince Gill(but of course that's an unusual situation, because of Glenn's death).

[bombaysaffires]

forgive my musicianship ignorance, but why do they need a backup drummer? is it just that Mick gets fatigued and someone else is carrying the actual physical load of banging away on certain songs? The early rumours5 tours certainly didn't have thin sounding drums.

Is john the only one who doesn't have a backup player on his instrument, or is there a bass player now too?

[Macfan4life]

I do agree that some of the backing musicians is a bit extreme. I don't think they needed 3 back up singers in 1987 but Stevie had 3 of them on her RAL tour so I guess she could not pick who stayed home. The additional percussionist does add a neat layer to the songs live.
I may be in the minority of what I am going to say. As much as I wish Lindsey stayed to tour during Tango and I missed him, I much preferred the Tango Tour and BTM tour compared to the Dance. Its not about Lindsey at all but the sound. By 1997 technology really changed the way bands sound live. Gone was arena rock by the Mac and their live sound had changed to a very studio-esque sound. Call me old fashioned but I love and miss the arena rock sound. For example, LOVED Chris cranking up the organ keyboards for Say You Love Me during the Tusk tour. For On With The Show, it was a pre-programmed type of thing that Chris needed to learn how to manipulate it live. I remember one show had several false starts to Say You Love Me because of this new fangled piece of technology. The Chain and Sisters really ROCKED during that era. Today is a very technical sound which I bet most appreciate. I miss the arena rock sound of not trying to sound like the record.

[HomerMcvie]

I do agree that some of the backing musicians is a bit extreme. I don't think they needed 3 back up singers in 1987 but Stevie had 3 of them on her RAL tour so I guess she could not pick who stayed home. The additional percussionist does add a neat layer to the songs live.
I may be in the minority of what I am going to say. As much as I wish Lindsey stayed to tour during Tango and I missed him, I much preferred the Tango Tour and BTM tour compared to the Dance. Its not about Lindsey at all but the sound. By 1997 technology really changed the way bands sound live. Gone was arena rock by the Mac and their live sound had changed to a very studio-esque sound. Call me old fashioned but I love and miss the arena rock sound. For example, LOVED Chris cranking up the organ keyboards for Say You Love Me during the Tusk tour. For On With The Show, it was a pre-programmed type of thing that Chris needed to learn how to manipulate it live. I remember one show had several false starts to Say You Love Me because of this new fangled piece of technology. The Chain and Sisters really ROCKED during that era. Today is a very technical sound which I bet most appreciate. I miss the arena rock sound of not trying to sound like the record.
I agree. It was much better THEN, warts and all. No need for a gigantic wall of sound. Just go out there and do your best! It's far more intimate that way.

During the second show of BuckVie(Nashville), they were starting a song, and apparently the wrong keyboard sound was selected, and they had to stop the song and start over....but she didn't know how to change it, so the keyboard tech had to come out and change it for her. Which was surprising, because she was barely playing anything anyway. Mostly just holding organ chords. Hold Me piano part was OBVIOUSLY programmed. Her hands weren't moving anything like they should have been for it. I do wonder which is her bigger issue, mental or physical? Mind is slipping a bit, or arthritis? Perhaps a combination...

[Macfan4life]

I agree. It was much better THEN, warts and all. No need for a gigantic wall of sound. Just go out there and do your best! It's far more intimate that way.

During the second show of BuckVie(Nashville), they were starting a song, and apparently the wrong keyboard sound was selected, and they had to stop the song and start over....but she didn't know how to change it, so the keyboard tech had to come out and change it for her. Which was surprising, because she was barely playing anything anyway. Mostly just holding organ chords. Hold Me piano part was OBVIOUSLY programmed. Her hands weren't moving anything like they should have been for it. I do wonder which is her bigger issue, mental or physical? Mind is slipping a bit, or arthritis? Perhaps a combination...
What you describe is the next generation of technology. The first was the additional musicians, then technology lost the big arena rock sound, and yes now there are pre-programmed tracks and even pre-recorded vocal tracks.

I drive myself crazy because I love Lindsey and love his solo shows and music. I think Rick and Billy were horrible singers and lack luster guitar playing who played too conservative. Having said that, I think the BTM/Farewell tour of the Mac was one of the best Mac concerts ever. On with the show was incredible just for the fact Christine came back as she swore she would never do. But musically I just loved the sound better in 87/90.
Now what I said should make no sense at all but its how I feel. It makes me feel guilty a bit.

[HomerMcvie]

What you describe is the next generation of technology. The first was the additional musicians, then technology lost the big arena rock sound, and yes now there are pre-programmed tracks and even pre-recorded vocal tracks.

I drive myself crazy because I love Lindsey and love his solo shows and music. I think Rick and Billy were horrible singers and lack luster guitar playing who played too conservative. Having said that, I think the BTM/Farewell tour of the Mac was one of the best Mac concerts ever. On with the show was incredible just for the fact Christine came back as she swore she would never do. But musically I just loved the sound better in 87/90.
Now what I said should make no sense at all but its how I feel. It makes me feel guilty a bit.

I hate the tracks, but everyone does it now. I do sound for a bunch of new country acts, and 9 out of 10 play with tracks now.

I think the half the reason most performers went to using "in ear monitors" was to hide the fact that they're using tracks. You can't have the tracks blaring out of a monitor in a club....too obvious.

It bugged the sh*t out of me seeing Lindsey solo, playing along with his karaoke machine. Hire a damned drummer and bass player, and get by like that. NO KARAOKE, PLEASE!

For me, Mirage was their peak, live. The peak of their voices, their looks, and their energy. And it was before the Fleetwood Mac Orchestra. And let's be honest....that's really(Tango, and the orchestra) when the old goat began gaining power in the group.

Christine coming back was a dream come true, and looking back now, THAT should have been the end of their story. Not firing Lindsey, hiring Neil and Hobo Joe to take his place.

[David]

forgive my musicianship ignorance, but why do they need a backup drummer? is it just that Mick gets fatigued and someone else is carrying the actual physical load of banging away on certain songs?
In that particular case—performing Tusk on the 1979–80 tour—I think it was a matter of beefing up the drum beat. When a second person is playing, even a simple beat like Tusk, there is a slight but audible delay effect created by the two drummers playing the same thing. It creates a broader, more expansive “chorus” effect that can sound like Armageddon. It also looks really cool and eerie to silhouette the second drummer behind a screen and throw different colors up on the screen. So I think show business was the reason.


For me, Mirage was their peak, live. The peak of their voices, their looks, and their energy. I loved the way they played most of the set that year, especially Second Hand News, The Chain, Dreams, Rhiannon, Brown Eyes, Eyes of the World, Hold Me, Sara, and Sisters of the Moon. But I still regard the final month of the 1980 tour as the all-time peak for both performance and stage engineering. Those gargantuan jams—The Chain, What Makes You Think You're the One?, Not That Funny, World Turning, Go Your Own Way—were like fireworks going off one minute and daffy sojourns into insanity the next.

[BigAl84]

I love Tusk. I love how Christine describes it as so "underproduced." Is that not the perfect word to describe it? Its hard to explain so I thought she nailed it with that one word description.
Lindsey sure went out of his way to try and make it the least commercial project ever.
Double album, album cover, underproduced, track listing, and yes many of his songs.

I sometimes wonder if Lindsey had compromised with the band and made a 1 disc album that limited some of the album's oddities what it would have sounded like.

I agree Homer. I think the lead single should have been Think About Me. Its the most traditional FM song ever and could have easily been on Rumours. Tusk (song) is a FM and Lindsey concert staple but I never ever hear it on the radio. Classic rock radio pretends it does not exist even though it was a top 10 single.


Actually, I don't think underproduced is the right term. Lindsey wanted a less polished sound, but a whole lot of deliberate production and effort went into making the record sound the way it does. I think it's a very produced album that sounds polished where it needs to and a little raw where it needs to.

[bombaysaffires]

Actually, I don't think underproduced is the right term. Lindsey wanted a less polished sound, but a whole lot of deliberate production and effort went into making the record sound the way it does. I think it's a very produced album that sounds polished where it needs to and a little raw where it needs to.

Agree. hence, a year in the studio. ok maybe not all of that was actual WORK time, but nonetheless....

[Macfan4life]

Actually, I don't think underproduced is the right term. Lindsey wanted a less polished sound, but a whole lot of deliberate production and effort went into making the record sound the way it does. I think it's a very produced album that sounds polished where it needs to and a little raw where it needs to.
Well that was Christine's description and I sort of agree. Is not a raw or organic sound underproduced? I think everyone has the same feeling but different word to describe it. They spent a long time in the studio because they had so much material It was 2 albums and not one. My comment was about how many of us wanted a more cohesive sound with all the members. Leaving backing vocals out and leaving many songs like Honey Hi or Never Make Me cry almost sound like demos. IMHO that is the purest example of underproduced. I also think Over and Over is so raw and underproduced that if it appeared on any other Mac album it would have been super polished. The Mac sort of went overboard with overdubs on Mirage. Christine and I don't see it as a negative term as you may see it. Its neutral. Over-produced does not mean overly commercial either. IMHO when you leave tracks in their organic or raw form, its the definition of under produced. The amount of time on the double album has nothing to do with the production value. We don't mean underproduced as being less effort. I think you are saying Lindsey over produced the album to purposely make it sound less polished?
I guess this conversation is very typical when discussing Tusk because it never fits into any category. One of my biggest regrets in life is not asking Lindsey a quick question during the meet and greet about the Tusk tracking being purposely incohesive as many allege happened. Others disagree with that and if you check the front page of this forum, this question is pending to Richard since 2016 when he mentioned about a Q & A session.

[bombaysaffires]

IMHO when you leave tracks in their organic or raw form, its the definition of under produced. The amount of time on the double album has nothing to do with the production value. We don't mean underproduced as being less effort. I think you are saying Lindsey over produced the album to purposely make it sound less polished?


Yes that's what I and many others mean when we say it is a highly produced album. They didn't leave the songs in a raw state meaning that they went in and did some rough takes and then put those out. Make no mistake everything on there is deliberate and polished. They recorded a lot of backing vocals and instrumental tracks and Lindsey played around with how many to layer in (or not). And even on the songs that you THINK are really minimalist and only have a couple things on them it's not the case. It's hard to imagine but it takes a lot of layers to sound like it's only a few. It's like women who you'd swear aren't wearing any makeup at all and just look naturally flawless, when in reality there are layers and layers of foundation and contouring and highlighter and 6 shades of neutral eyeshadow and eyeliner that look like she's wearing no eye make up at all.

[cbBen]

Agreed. The live three-part harmonies on Isn't it Midnight and Eyes of the World are fantastic. Why, oh why were they not considered for their respective albums? Think of how cool Big Love would have been if all three of them were singing on it. When all three voices are singing on The Dance's Silver Springs, I get chills.

Love SYW as a testament to the duo's continued viability as songwriters. The set is strengthened by the trio's instrumentation. But it's so bifurcated. Christine is sorely missed.

A real waste to leave Stevie's voice off almost any song, but particularly the wordless chorus of "Eyes Of The World."

[button-lip]

For me, Mirage was their peak, live. The peak of their voices, their looks, and their energy. And it was before the Fleetwood Mac Orchestra. And let's be honest....that's really(Tango, and the orchestra) when the old goat began gaining power in the group.

Christine coming back was a dream come true, and looking back now, THAT should have been the end of their story. Not firing Lindsey, hiring Neil and Hobo Joe to take his place.

Agreed about Tango. But then Lindsey left and of course the old goat took the opportunity to gain power.

Christine coming back meant she was free to firing Lindsey, so I don't know if it was such a good thing that she came back. Old Goat couldn't care less about the band's legacy. And that's the f*cking truth.

[HomerMcvie]

Christine coming back meant she was free to firing Lindsey, so I don't know if it was such a good thing that she came back. Old Goat couldn't care less about the band's legacy. And that's the f*cking truth.

But it was REALLY an ordeal for me to deal with them, without the balance that Christine brings. It was FLAT without Christine.

That said (especially after BuckVie, and the love they showed on the swan song for FM), if we'd known she was GOING TO HAVE NO F*CKING SPINE, and let that ego maniacal old goat fire the REASON that made and kept them being ARTISTS, maybe it would have been better if she hadn't come back. Spineless old company shill, who WAS the heroine of my life. Her loyalties are f*cked up beyond belief. Mick called her Superwoman. She ain't. #companyshill

[HomerMcvie]

I remember that when I read Bob Welch's wife's stories about Christine keeping Bob out of the R&RHOF, that she wasn't the woman I'd always hoped she was. And I did my best to ignore it, and forgive her. And I pretty much made it. Until the Lindsey debacle. She's almost as bad and Dick and the Old Goat.'

Lindsey is the ONLY one I'd even care to meet, these days. Perhaps John, but I've never understood anything he's ever said on camera, so it would be frustrating trying to decipher his cockney mumblings. :lol:

[Macfan4life]

I remember that when I read Bob Welch's wife's stories about Christine keeping Bob out of the R&RHOF, that she wasn't the woman I'd always hoped she was. And I did my best to ignore it, and forgive her. And I pretty much made it. Until the Lindsey debacle. She's almost as bad and Dick and the Old Goat.'

Lindsey is the ONLY one I'd even care to meet, these days. Perhaps John, but I've never understood anything he's ever said on camera, so it would be frustrating trying to decipher his cockney mumblings. :lol:
I'm with you admiring Christine as my favorite member. She has always had a calming effect on me. Her songs are always excellent and always loved how it was never about "her" but always the group effort. All traits that I admire. I love her playing too. Everything she adds to a song it always top notch. But if you read some of Bob's interviews during the 90's, Bob had some harsh things to say about her saying stuff like she acted like royalty, etc. I guess those traits of putting the band FIRST (no matter what) does come with some negative baggage i.e. turning your back on Lindsey and not putting your foot down, turning your back on Bob, etc. She seems to have a blind loyalty to Mick except when she wanted to leave the band. She even gave him $50,000 during his peak debt crisis in 1984.

[sue]

I'm with you admiring Christine as my favorite member. She has always had a calming effect on me. Her songs are always excellent and always loved how it was never about "her" but always the group effort. All traits that I admire. I love her playing too. Everything she adds to a song it always top notch. But if you read some of Bob's interviews during the 90's, Bob had some harsh things to say about her saying stuff like she acted like royalty, etc. I guess those traits of putting the band FIRST (no matter what) does come with some negative baggage i.e. turning your back on Lindsey and not putting your foot down, turning your back on Bob, etc. She seems to have a blind loyalty to Mick except when she wanted to leave the band. She even gave him $50,000 during his peak debt crisis in 1984.

I think the older they’ve got the three Brits have stuck together...
They have a long long history back to the mid 1960’s
.....Unfortunately due mainly to Mick having permanent money problems
they have to sit at the same table as the cash cow....

[elle]

But it was REALLY an ordeal for me to deal with them, without the balance that Christine brings. It was FLAT without Christine.

That said (especially after BuckVie, and the love they showed on the swan song for FM), if we'd known she was GOING TO HAVE NO F*CKING SPINE, and let that ego maniacal old goat fire the REASON that made and kept them being ARTISTS, maybe it would have been better if she hadn't come back. Spineless old company shill, who WAS the heroine of my life. Her loyalties are f*cked up beyond belief. Mick called her Superwoman. She ain't. #companyshill
as a fan, and as a feminist, i'm very happy she came back. i was happy to see a 70 year old woman being able to come back and reclaim her place in rock history. as a fan, i am thrilled to have gotten Buckingham McVie, songs that we probably still would not get out with the band trying to appease Stevie and bring her to the table to release that as Mac album. i'm thrilled to see Lindsey-Christine collaboration and how productive and happy it was at this late stage in their career. i'm thrilled to have making off BuckVie footage, showing us how happy and cohesive and creative Fleetwood Mac can be where the person constantly holding them back and constantly inciting unnecessary fights and touting their own importance is not there.

yes, personally for Lindsey it did not end well, and ended in a heart attack and voice damage. i'm still hoping he will come back. but at least he's not wasting away more years on useless jukebox tours.

I remember that when I read Bob Welch's wife's stories about Christine keeping Bob out of the R&RHOF, that she wasn't the woman I'd always hoped she was. And I did my best to ignore it, and forgive her. And I pretty much made it. Until the Lindsey debacle. She's almost as bad and Dick and the Old Goat.'

Lindsey is the ONLY one I'd even care to meet, these days. Perhaps John, but I've never understood anything he's ever said on camera, so it would be frustrating trying to decipher his cockney mumblings. :lol:
you take Mick's word (washing his own hands and putting it all on someone else) as gospel. i don't believe a word Mick's saying, so i don't see why would we believe what he said to Wendy is true. he was just trying to make her stop blaming him.

i never understood this - why are you giving a pass to John while at the same time blaming Christine? John had an opportunity to say no to Mick, before Christine even knew what was happening. he just lazily rolled over and couldn't care less. and then Christine went with him and Mick. so John is even more to blame than Christine. just because he doesn't say much he always get more of a pass than anyone else in that band. he shouldn't.

I'm with you admiring Christine as my favorite member. She has always had a calming effect on me. Her songs are always excellent and always loved how it was never about "her" but always the group effort. All traits that I admire. I love her playing too. Everything she adds to a song it always top notch. But if you read some of Bob's interviews during the 90's, Bob had some harsh things to say about her saying stuff like she acted like royalty, etc. I guess those traits of putting the band FIRST (no matter what) does come with some negative baggage i.e. turning your back on Lindsey and not putting your foot down, turning your back on Bob, etc. She seems to have a blind loyalty to Mick except when she wanted to leave the band. She even gave him $50,000 during his peak debt crisis in 1984.
yes.

[bombaysaffires]

I'm with you admiring Christine as my favorite member. She has always had a calming effect on me. Her songs are always excellent and always loved how it was never about "her" but always the group effort. All traits that I admire. I love her playing too. Everything she adds to a song it always top notch. But if you read some of Bob's interviews during the 90's, Bob had some harsh things to say about her saying stuff like she acted like royalty, etc. I guess those traits of putting the band FIRST (no matter what) does come with some negative baggage i.e. turning your back on Lindsey and not putting your foot down, turning your back on Bob, etc. She seems to have a blind loyalty to Mick except when she wanted to leave the band. She even gave him $50,000 during his peak debt crisis in 1984.

I'd always heard it was $100k.

[BombaySapphire3]

I'd always heard it was $100k.

Either way it was not nearly enough to get that greedy old P.O.S. out of the red..It took the Tango album and tour to do that but he would lose that fortune as well.

[David]

Yes that's what I and many others mean when we say it is a highly produced album. They didn't leave the songs in a raw state meaning that they went in and did some rough takes and then put those out. Make no mistake everything on there is deliberate and polished. They recorded a lot of backing vocals and instrumental tracks and Lindsey played around with how many to layer in (or not). And even on the songs that you THINK are really minimalist and only have a couple things on them it's not the case. It's hard to imagine but it takes a lot of layers to sound like it's only a few. It's like women who you'd swear aren't wearing any makeup at all and just look naturally flawless, when in reality there are layers and layers of foundation and contouring and highlighter and 6 shades of neutral eyeshadow and eyeliner that look like she's wearing no eye make up at all.Good way to put it—good analogy. I think we’re all on the same page. The production label includes things like the arrangements or orchestrations, which involve deciding which instruments to incorporate, setting levels, deciding how (or whether) to combine instruments or vocals (double-tracking, triple-tracking, quadruple-tracking), instrumental costuming (creating the illusion of one instrument with another), and so on.

Over and Over may have a lot of thinking behind it and a lot of conscious craftsmanship involved in its recording, but it’s arranged to sound as if you were only hearing a basic combo: drums, bass, electronic piano, organ, acoustic guitar, an electric guitar or two, a lead vocal and some harmonies. It has a natural, ad hoc feel—kind of a “take it from the top” live feel, which is something that Fleetwood Mac usually does not do. What you usually hear is an entire novel of sound ideas where pieces of instrumentation or vocals are stripped or combined in ways that the listener feels more than hears. Fleetwood Mac is the idea band. They must have thousands of ideas in a year of being in the studio, and I bet they put the majority of those ideas on tape. But months later, they may remove a bunch of them, too (think of the way the kit brushes were removed from Never Going Back Again).

Sometimes they go wrong for my personal taste. Why isn’t there a chunkier, more prominent piano on Love in Store? It fairly cries out for it.

[bombaysaffires]

Sometimes they go wrong for my personal taste. Why isn’t there a chunkier, more prominent piano on Love in Store? It fairly cries out for it.

Ugh this song is one of my personal bugaboos as well... it just doesn't work. It sounds to me very..... empty. Lots of unfilled spaces. Cold. Unfinished. Especially on an album so full of plinks and plops and all sorts of sounds (like Gypsy).:(

[Macfan4life]

I'd always heard it was $100k.
I'm going off memory from Mick's own words in his first book. Although $50,000 in 1984 would almost be $100,000 today. But the money only carried Mick for one month before he officially declared bankruptcy.

BTW, would it not be a dream to bring Lindsey into this Tusk conversation. I bet he would love it too. Answering all Tusk related questions with dedication. (I don't believe this) but there are many in the rock world that believe Tusk ruined FM. You hear the White Album and Rumours on classic rock stations every day. They never play Tusk or Sara and Mirage is too light pop, etc. I often wonder not about Tusk that changed the band but Rumours. What IF Rumours was as successful or a tad less successful than the White Album. What would Tusk have sounded like then? Would it have even been called Tusk? What if we got another "traditional" album like the first 2. Interesting to think about it.

[vivfox]

Either way it was not nearly enough to get that greedy old P.O.S. out of the red..It took the Tango album and tour to do that but he would lose that fortune as well.


Mick has revealed to the world that he lost all his money more times than we originally knew about. Should we assume he will eventually blow through the ten million dollars he earned from this current tour also? I try to imagine having his income from 1977. Would I still have my fortune today? Would I have been like him and blow it all? It's so easy for me to criticize his stupidity when it comes to money but I myself made many a blunder with all the money I earned in my lifetime. I have been marijuana free for almost 11 years now but during those smoking times, I never was able to save money. My bills always got paid but everything after that went up in smoke.

[On Ice]

BTW, would it not be a dream to bring Lindsey into this Tusk conversation. I bet he would love it too. Answering all Tusk related questions with dedication. (I don't believe this) but there are many in the rock world that believe Tusk ruined FM. You hear the White Album and Rumours on classic rock stations every day. They never play Tusk or Sara and Mirage is too light pop, etc. I often wonder not about Tusk that changed the band but Rumours. What IF Rumours was as successful or a tad less successful than the White Album. What would Tusk have sounded like then? Would it have even been called Tusk? What if we got another "traditional" album like the first 2. Interesting to think about it.


Interesting perspective MacMan and one that supports how the bands setlists have remained unchanged for how many decades now. With the exception of I Don't Want to Know and Oh Daddy here and there the whole album gets played. Tusk has all but disappeared and Gypsy and Hold Me are the only Mirage tunes. As for the others, did Behind the Mask and Say You Will actually exist? So I think the band themselves have defined what is memorable and what is not- the shout outs to Tusk that Stevie or Mick gives are empty in my mind as they know a concert full of Tusk songs would see a lot of empty seats. As for what ruined the band's creativity, it was in my mind the gargantuan success of Rumours, they didn't know how to handle it all and it went to their heads, along with a lot of coke, they lost their way and the creativity that spawned Rumours went up in smoke.

[Villavic]

So I think the band themselves have defined what is memorable and what is not- the shout outs to Tusk that Stevie or Mick gives are empty in my mind as they know a concert full of Tusk songs would see a lot of empty seats.

But empty seats confirm my suspicions of who defines what is memorable. The band? Mmmm... I think it is people. Common admirers, who are the majority. It reminds me the History of the Eagles doc, Glenn explained it very clear:

Randy Meisner, called the road manager and said "Tell Glenn I don't want to do Take It To The Limit any more. Take it out of the set. "
Glenn: I confronted him about this. I called him up, and I said, "Randy, there's thousands of people waiting to hear you sing that song. "You just can't say, 'F... them. I don't feel like it. Do you think I like singing Take It Easy and Peaceful Easy Feeling every night? I'm tired of those songs, but there's people in the audience who've been waiting years to see us do those songs."

And to be sincere, I felt so identified with that, since 1997 was my first opportunity to see Fleetwood Mac live, and did I want to see them playing Honey Hi? No, I was dying to see them singing the hits... Don't Stop, GYOW, Tusk(song), Sara, Everywhere, or Rhiannon. Of course in 2009 I wanted different songs and I was so thrilled watching Stevie singing Storms. And in 2014 after being at 2 concerts it was time to expect Sister of the Moon and IKINW, and enjoyed!!! But do most of the public go to a Fleetwood Mac concert 3 or 5 times in their lives? . Ledgies do, of course. Common mortals don't. ;)

And concert operating costs are high, so any singer or band are forced to fill seats. Otherwise it will be the last tour.

[John Run]

I am late to this - but I think Sara is one of the greatest production jobs ever. (I for one have always believed Lindsey generally made better production choices on songs he did not write.) The 2 intertwined acoustics a steel string and nylon mimicking each other and mixed to sound as one. The tele yearning to be heard within the layers of harmonies, while the cradle rocking rhythm arrangement simultaneously anchors the song and hinges each section together. Then my absolute favorite part - the two electric pianos - Christine playing Stevie’s two finger part into a self contained orchestra of chords while Lindsey counters it with a second piano part played slightly off time as only he would.

Just a perfectly produced song.

[michelej1]

But what about those acts who acknowledge they have dedicated fans who see them over and over and over again and play accordingly. Springsteen does this. There are always people there to see him for the first time, but he plays to those people who know everything he’s done and will embrace the deep tracks.

Unfortunately, Prince thought people still needed to see him in high heels. If he’d switched to Reeboks, he might still be alive. But he wasn’t as misguided with his set list. He often liked to play as if he was in his own living room. He would pull old songs out of the mothballs and play them. He would switch up every concert and just choose songs to perform spontaneously and he would expect his band to follow along and to know all of them

How do you finally transform into that performer? When you’ve been around for 40 years and you have sold a record-breaking number of albums, why do you keep playing for those who are seeing you for the first time. You’re almost 80 years old. Stop creating your set list for new people.

[bombaysaffires]

I am late to this - but I think Sara is one of the greatest production jobs ever. (I for one have always believed Lindsey generally made better production choices on songs he did not write.) The 2 intertwined acoustics a steel string and nylon mimicking each other and mixed to sound as one. The tele yearning to be heard within the layers of harmonies, while the cradle rocking rhythm arrangement simultaneously anchors the song and hinges each section together. Then my absolute favorite part - the two electric pianos - Christine playing Stevie’s two finger part into a self contained orchestra of chords while Lindsey counters it with a second piano part played slightly off time as only he would.

Just a perfectly produced song.

the ebbing and swelling of the background vocals are signature Lindsey production and give a momentum to the song her demo doesn't have. Without it the song would drone. He does the same on Gypsy. He puts the hills and valleys into her otherwise flat musical landscape.

[jbrownsjr]

But what about those acts who acknowledge they have dedicated fans who see them over and over and over again and play accordingly. Springsteen does this. There are always people there to see him for the first time, but he plays to those people who know everything he’s done and will embrace the deep tracks.

Unfortunately, Prince thought people still needed to see him in high heels. If he’d switched to Reeboks, he might still be alive. But he wasn’t as misguided with his set list. He often liked to play as if he was in his own living room. He would pull old songs out of the mothballs and play them. He would switch up every concert and just choose songs to perform spontaneously and he would expect his band to follow along and to know all of them

How do you finally transform into that performer? When you’ve been around for 40 years and you have sold a record-breaking number of albums, why do you keep playing for those who are seeing you for the first time. You’re almost 80 years old. Stop creating your set list for new people.

It's what happens when the people paying you 100 mil dictate the show.

[jbrownsjr]

the ebbing and swelling of the background vocals are signature Lindsey production and give a momentum to the song her demo doesn't have. Without it the song would drone. He does the same on Gypsy. He puts the hills and valleys into her otherwise flat musical landscape.

I love what Christine and Lindsey do for Sara live. It's fantastic on the Tusk Tour.

[HomerMcvie]

It's what happens when the people paying you 100 mil dictate the show.

Exactly. They're too afraid they won't sell out the venues if they don't stick to the routine.

Speaking of sell outs....

[sue]

I am late to this - but I think Sara is one of the greatest production jobs ever. (I for one have always believed Lindsey generally made better production choices on songs he did not write.) The 2 intertwined acoustics a steel string and nylon mimicking each other and mixed to sound as one. The tele yearning to be heard within the layers of harmonies, while the cradle rocking rhythm arrangement simultaneously anchors the song and hinges each section together. Then my absolute favorite part - the two electric pianos - Christine playing Stevie’s two finger part into a self contained orchestra of chords while Lindsey counters it with a second piano part played slightly off time as only he would.

Just a perfectly produced song.

Wow, thanks John.
I’m going to put on and listen again(and again) to Sara.
I love it when people with musical knowledge explain and breakdown a song.
Thanks

[aleuzzi]

the ebbing and swelling of the background vocals are signature Lindsey production and give a momentum to the song her demo doesn't have. Without it the song would drone. He does the same on Gypsy. He puts the hills and valleys into her otherwise flat musical landscape.

Amen to that. Without the production, Sara is pretty skeletal. The RS reviewer at the time noted that "Brown Eyes" was a mere scrap of a song that the production made into a magnificent castle in the air. I don't dispute this. The difference is "Brown Eyes" would still sound compelling with just Christine singing to her electric piano. The verses have a tuneful shape and the chorus of sha la las is irresistible. Meanwhile, "Sara" without the gorgeous orchestration, killer bottom-end, and lush vocal harmonies is tedious and unremarkable. The production MAKES the song--excepting the opening piano and vocal section ("Wait a minute baby...) which is catchy on its own.

"Storms" and "Beautiful Child" and "Angel" could stand on their own without elaborate production, .

[bombaysaffires]

Amen to that. Without the production, Sara is pretty skeletal. The RS reviewer at the time noted that "Brown Eyes" was a mere scrap of a song that the production made into a magnificent castle in the air. I don't dispute this. The difference is "Brown Eyes" would still sound compelling with just Christine singing to her electric piano. The verses have a tuneful shape and the chorus of sha la las is irresistible. Meanwhile, "Sara" without the gorgeous orchestration, killer bottom-end, and lush vocal harmonies is tedious and unremarkable. The production MAKES the song--excepting the opening piano and vocal section ("Wait a minute baby...) which is catchy on its own.

"Storms" and "Beautiful Child" and "Angel" could stand on their own without elaborate production, .

actually Lindsey explained in a long interview where he went through many songs and how he produced them that Storms was kind of a basic country song [and from what he said it sounds like it might have been a more twangy or even a bit more upbeat the way she had it] and anyone else would have kept it that way but he wanted it to be more meaningful. I think it was a British interview. I have it recorded somewhere. That's a great example of his production where it sounds really simple like oh that's just Stevie and Lindsey and his one acoustic guitar and it's not. There's many layers of guitar made to sound simple and there's a piano line that runs through it that really adds to it.

The piano on Beautiful Child does sound a lot like they took her original plonky piano thing she does on her demos and polished it a bit. I've never heard her demo of Angel, but given how she's done it solo that's another one that wouldn't have been as good without his influence. Having John's baseline so prominent really makes it pop. And LB tweaked her melody which you can see part of on the Tusk doc. then later in the doc she tells Christine how it was all her idea. :laugh:

[aleuzzi]

actually Lindsey explained in a long interview where he went through many songs and how he produced them that Storms was kind of a basic country song [and from what he said it sounds like it might have been a more twangy or even a bit more upbeat the way she had it] and anyone else would have kept it that way but he wanted it to be more meaningful. I think it was a British interview. I have it recorded somewhere. That's a great example of his production where it sounds really simple like oh that's just Stevie and Lindsey and his one acoustic guitar and it's not. There's many layers of guitar made to sound simple and there's a piano line that runs through it that really adds to it.

The piano on Beautiful Child does sound a lot like they took her original plonky piano thing she does on her demos and polished it a bit. I've never heard her demo of Angel, but given how she's done it solo that's another one that wouldn't have been as good without his influence. Having John's baseline so prominent really makes it pop. And LB tweaked her melody which you can see part of on the Tusk doc. then later in the doc she tells Christine how it was all her idea. :laugh:

Those three songs may sound different and improved from their demos but the song structures themselves are sound and can stand on their own, which was my original point.

[Kyle]

I've always thought Christine's songs got short changed on this album. Lindsey's songs came out the way he wanted. Certainly, a lot of work was put into Sara.

The Peter Green version of Brown Eyes would have been, for me, the highlight of the album. Think About Me is a great song, but it sounds like a run through. I could do without the grunge guitar. Stevie's voice could have been more prominent in the mix.

[aleuzzi]

I've always thought Christine's songs got short changed on this album. Lindsey's songs came out the way he wanted. Certainly, a lot of work was put into Sara.

The Peter Green version of Brown Eyes would have been, for me, the highlight of the album. Think About Me is a great song, but it sounds like a run through. I could do without the grunge guitar. Stevie's voice could have been more prominent in the mix.

I agree. As fine as Brown Eyes is, I prefer the Green version. And I also prefer the Think About Me version (sans Lindsey on vocal) from the deluxe. Had TAB been given a little bit more attention and had it been arranged more imaginatively, it could have been a HUGE hit. The final version we have has its charms and works as solid, crunching pub rock. But I’m one of the few who feel Lindsey’s presence on this one overwhelms the song, as opposed to serving the song—as he did so beautifully with Hold Me.

[HomerMcvie]

Think About Me is a great song, but it sounds like a run through. I could do without the grunge guitar. Stevie's voice could have been more prominent in the mix.

Noooo! I absolutley LOVE it just as it is! I wouldn't change a note of it!

$tevie who? I'll bet she's your favorite?

[HomerMcvie]

I agree. As fine as Brown Eyes is, I prefer the Green version. And I also prefer the Think About Me version (sans Lindsey on vocal) from the deluxe. Had TAB been given a little bit more attention and had it been arranged more imaginatively, it could have been a HUGE hit. The final version we have has its charms and works as solid, crunching pub rock. But I’m one of the few who feel Lindsey’s presence on this one overwhelms the song, as opposed to serving the song—as he did so beautifully with Hold Me.
Lindsey's presence is what makes it work for me. The grungy guitars and his punky "EVERY EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE! "

TAB might be my favorite FM song of all time.

[Villavic]

I just read on november 10, 1979 (a day like tomorrow), Fleetwood Mac came for the second time to the first place in the English rankings with Tusk. On the other side of the Atlantic, in the United States, it reached fourth place.

[TrueFaith77]

I consider TUSK the greatest album of all time--three distinct perspectives on romance at their artistic peak aligned, not by the radical soap-opera narrative of RUMOURS, but by the buoying sound of a strings-like harmonizing. It constitutes a total social vision.

But I couldn't bring myself to celebrate its 40th anniversary with a listening session.

They broke my heart, so I don't know how my ears will hear it now.

It may be overtaken in my estimation by Roxy Music's SIREN--the most perfect expression of the most refined (romantic) sensibility of the 20th Century. It's a great album about desire and heartbreak that can be heard without suffering the personal betrayal of heartbreak.

[David]

I consider TUSK the greatest album of all time--three distinct perspectives on romance at their artistic peak aligned, not by the radical soap-opera narrative of RUMOURS, but by the buoying sound of a strings-like harmonizing. It constitutes a total social vision.
In formalistic terms, is Tusk completely successful — does it achieve or even exceed all its aesthetic goals? Or does its greatness lie at least in part in its folly: in its excesses, its miscalculations, its exhausting grandeur? (The critics at the time hinted at this by comparing it, as you know, to the Beatles’ fractious 1968 studio album The Beatles.)

To me, the link between form and content in Rumours seems insoluble. There is no loose formalistic thread whose teensy bit of unraveling subverts the album’s content. Even the botched production treatment of “Songbird” doesn’t undercut any of the album’s statements (I say it’s botched because, taken by itself, it sticks out sonically like a sore thumb — it lacks the tight compression of the hermetic studio environment and the Appalachian mountain music alchemy of the multitracking, yet it’s still weirdly and entirely of a piece with the rest of the album).

But in Tusk there’s a distracting tension between the work itself and the maze of incompatibilities feeding our aural, visual, and intellectual sensibilities (most often attributed to the differences among the three writers and their aging voices). Does the album’s greatness as a cultural artifact lie in its boastful display of incommensurates? Tusk feels like a folly — many of rock’s most influential works are glorious follies that push the borders of the art outward. And should “Not That Funny” have been . . . well, funnier?

Say, this is fun!

[Villavic]

https://brianadamspr.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/was-that-sarcasm.jpg

[HomerMcvie]

https://brianadamspr.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/was-that-sarcasm.jpg

That David. He sure do have a way with words, don't he? :lol::lol::lol:

:angel: David:angel:

[David]

I could have worded it all more clearly, I suppose. But I wanted to engage with John when he said it was the greatest album of all time. It’s not that I agree or disagree but that I want to hear more from John. He’s written some good books (http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/ResistanceWorksWDC)!

[aleuzzi]

In formalistic terms, is Tusk completely successful — does it achieve or even exceed all its aesthetic goals? Or does its greatness lie at least in part in its folly: in its excesses, its miscalculations, its exhausting grandeur? (The critics at the time hinted at this by comparing it, as you know, to the Beatles’ fractious 1968 studio album The Beatles.)

To me, the link between form and content in Rumours seems insoluble. There is no loose formalistic thread whose teensy bit of unraveling subverts the album’s content. Even the botched production treatment of “Songbird” doesn’t undercut any of the album’s statements (I say it’s botched because, taken by itself, it sticks out sonically like a sore thumb — it lacks the tight compression of the hermetic studio environment and the Appalachian mountain music alchemy of the multitracking, yet it’s still weirdly and entirely of a piece with the rest of the album).

But in Tusk there’s a distracting tension between the work itself and the maze of incompatibilities feeding our aural, visual, and intellectual sensibilities (most often attributed to the differences among the three writers and their aging voices). Does the album’s greatness as a cultural artifact lie in its boastful display of incommensurates? Tusk feels like a folly — many of rock’s most influential works are glorious follies that push the borders of the art outward. And should “Not That Funny” have been . . . well, funnier?

Say, this is fun!

True, dat, as the kids [used to] say.

Rumours achieves a remarkable coherence through synthesis. The various parts come together. And yes, "Songbird" is sonically different from all the rest, but its placement directly after the album's most raucous, bombastic moment feels deliberate...

By contrast, Tusk achieves fragmentation through fragmentation. The various parts are adjacent but not in conversation. The result is one jarring juxtaposition after another, the story of how these five very different people, and specifically the three songwriters DON'T organically fit together. THIS is Tusk's aesthetic goal. The result is fascinating and, oddly, enduring.

Contemporary reviewers noted similarities with the Beatles White Album but were often careful enough to recognize Tusk was lyrically superficial by comparison. On the other hand, the individual writers on the double Beatles album manage to forge a unified sound--one that is grungier, simpler, and spacier than their previous masterwork. With Tusk, you have different sonic approaches: proto-punk bathroom concoctions; Brian Wilson tributes; L.A. studio sophistication worthy of Steely Dan. It's all over the place...And I love it because of this.

[David]

True, dat, as the kids [used to] say.

Rumours achieves a remarkable coherence through synthesis. The various parts come together. And yes, "Songbird" is sonically different from all the rest, but its placement directly after the album's most raucous, bombastic moment feels deliberate...

By contrast, Tusk achieves fragmentation through fragmentation. The various parts are adjacent but not in conversation. The result is one jarring juxtaposition after another, the story of how these five very different people, and specifically the three songwriters DON'T organically fit together. THIS is Tusk's aesthetic goal. The result is fascinating and, oddly, enduring.

Contemporary reviewers noted similarities with the Beatles White Album but were often careful enough to recognize Tusk was lyrically superficial by comparison. On the other hand, the individual writers on the double Beatles album manage to forge a unified sound--one that is grungier, simpler, and spacier than their previous masterwork. With Tusk, you have different sonic approaches: proto-punk bathroom concoctions; Brian Wilson tributes; L.A. studio sophistication worthy of Steely Dan. It's all over the place...And I love it because of this.
Beautifully stated, Tony. “The various parts are adjacent but not in conversation.” Both Robert Hilburn and Noel Coppage thought the fragmentation was a weakness. With a lot of time behind us, it’s not a weakness any more. The idea that even forward-thinking critics considered it so in 1979 illustrates just how powerful the unity of form and content on Rumours really was. The “not fitting together” quality really is the aesthetic goal, as you said. The craze for paring down the album to a single album or rearranging the track list maybe doesn’t see the point? You shouldn’t want to turn Tusk into an album that’s any more palatable to a mass audience or a boardroom full of radio execs. The album is anti-single and anti-radio. If it had sold at Rumours level, a good argument could be made that it had failed at its goal.

[ViscountViktor]

To me, the link between form and content in Rumours seems insoluble. There is no loose formalistic thread whose teensy bit of unraveling subverts the album’s content. Even the botched production treatment of “Songbird” doesn’t undercut any of the album’s statements (I say it’s botched because, taken by itself, it sticks out sonically like a sore thumb — it lacks the tight compression of the hermetic studio environment and the Appalachian mountain music alchemy of the multitracking, yet it’s still weirdly and entirely of a piece with the rest of the album).



This is really interesting to read coming from someone who is obviously very knowledgeable about music.

I've always hated the compressed vocals on Rumours - they stick out like a sore thumb compared to other music of the time, and indeed other FM albums with the same producers.

Are you saying that they were a production decision, I always thought they were a result of the high end being lost from the masters being overused?

As I was listening to several tracks today from Tusk the one thing I wish Lindsey would have done was to add Christine and Stevie’s vocals to more of his tracks. Save Me a Place, That’s All For Everyone and Walk a Thin Line comes to mind.

And Save Me A Place literally has a 3 part harmony in the chorus which is, you know, Fleetwood Mac's thing. Why did they let Lindsey do all three parts?

[BLY]

[QUOTE=



And Save Me A Place literally has a 3 part harmony in the chorus which is, you know, Fleetwood Mac's thing. Why did they let Lindsey do all three parts?[/QUOTE]


The live versions of this song REALLY showed what the studio version could have been. The three part harmonies were amazing.

[tabruns]

I think if TUSK had been whittled down to a single album it really would have lost quite a bit of its punch. I think Buckingham was right that nothing was going to match RUMOURS, so why even try?

TUSK is underproduced in many areas but on the other hand there's major production in others. "Brown Eyes" is produced to the hilt, as are "Sara" and "Storms". Its sprawling and complex.

"Not That Funny" was a single, so that would make 5. I have no idea what the sixth single could have been. TUSK isn't really a singles album - Buckingham's songs were all veering way left, Nicks was reveling in the extra space to make long spooky anthems, and even McVie's always solid songs lacked the usual pop hooks. It's clear that at the time Buckingham's vision of art-over-commercialism was embraced by both Nicks and McVie, even if later the (relative) lack of sales changed some minds.

I had to chuckles at Mick's quote about not caring about album sales. Sure.

[tabruns]

I think the reason that Mirage and Tango didn’t have the “depth of greatness” was largely due to the solo career focus that was in full force from 1981-1987.

You may have a point here, although Nicks was a prolific enough songwriter that she always had songs to hand over.

I think MIRAGE suffers as a reaction to TUSK. Buckingham felt burned by the band's shifting reaction when TUSK didn't sell big, so that made MIRAGE "safe" (although Nicks still had "Gypsy", and McVie "Hold Me", both great songs).

TANGO was stronger because Buckingham wasn't in reactionary mode by then. He is really strong on that album. McVie too came up with "Little Lies" and "Everywhere", two great songs. Nicks's drug addiction really impacted her songwriting quality and performance at the time.

[tabruns]

As I was listening to several tracks today from Tusk the one thing I wish Lindsey would have done was to add Christine and Stevie’s vocals to more of his tracks. Save Me a Place, That’s All For Everyone and Walk a Thin Line comes to mind.

I agree completely. I think it would have been fascinating if Buckingham had kept the veering-to-the-left production-wise but made the songs actual band performances.

[tabruns]

It's for this reason that I particularly love all of side 4. Honey Hi--the harmonies! Never Forget--the harmonies! Beautiful Child--the descants! Walk a Thin Line--the harmonies!

Oh yes, definitely agree. The harmonies are what save "Honey Hi", and I love all their vocal parts in "Beautiful Child", particularly at the end of the song.....I think the song fades a bit too quickly actually because i love Stevie's distant "aaaahhhhhhh" twice at the end.

[tabruns]

i never understood this - why are you giving a pass to John while at the same time blaming Christine?


Because misogyny.

[jbrownsjr]

The live versions of this song REALLY showed what the studio version could have been. The three part harmonies were amazing.

Absolutely!!!

[ViscountViktor]

Lindsey not letting anyone else sing on his songs post Rumours is one of my biggest Mac bugbears. Think of the harmonies we have missed out on.

[mitzo]

Lindsey not letting anyone else sing on his songs post Rumours is one of my biggest Mac bugbears. Think of the harmonies we have missed out on.
This is a symptom of the reasons he is no longer in the band.

[elle]

Lindsey not letting anyone else sing on his songs post Rumours is one of my biggest Mac bugbears. Think of the harmonies we have missed out on.
Lindsey adding Stevie to his awesome GOS songs and making them non-listenable with all that horrible nasality has been hurtful for my ears. :(

[elle]

Because misogyny.

i don't think so. i think that's over-simplistic lazy crutch explanation, even though there may easily be some truth to it. but John gets a pass a lot in Mac fan community, for the same stuff other guys in the band are repeatedly raked over the coals.

i think there are many nuances to various fans' reasoning as to why they blame Christine but leave John alone for not having a spine in 2018 happenings. some are shippers who blame Christine coming back for breaking up the "lovefest" version of the band. others just set a low low bar for John, while high bar for Christine. funnily enough, however low bar is set for Mick, he still manages to crawl lower than that in most fans eyes! :lol:

[jbrownsjr]

i don't think so. i think that's over-simplistic lazy crutch explanation, even though there may easily be some truth to it. but John gets a pass a lot in Mac fan community, for the same stuff other guys in the band are repeatedly raked over the coals.

i think there are many nuances to various fans' reasoning as to why they blame Christine but leave John alone for not having a spine in 2018 happenings. some are shippers who blame Christine coming back for breaking up the "lovefest" version of the band. others just set a low low bar for John, while high bar for Christine. funnily enough, however low bar is set for Mick, he still manages to crawl lower than that in most fans eyes! :lol:

It really makes me laugh how shippers (not here so much). but you know some of them personally, and so do I. They HATE Christine. And only for the mere reason that she broke B/N up!! It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. They still go on and on and on to this day about how they love each other. The drugs some of these people take must be strong.

[HomerMcvie]

It really makes me laugh how shippers (not here so much). but you know some of them personally, and so do I. They HATE Christine. And only for the mere reason that she broke B/N up!! It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. They still go on and on and on to this day about how they love each other. The drugs some of these people take must be strong.

I know that I rub so many $tevie fans against their grain, but ^^^^^^THIS is the reason I do it. It's just SO STUPID to play this stupid game that $tevie and Lindsey are still in love. Only an idiot could believe it.

I'll bet Lindsey would strangle her to death if he thought he could get away with it.

[tabruns]

Lindsey not letting anyone else sing on his songs post Rumours is one of my biggest Mac bugbears. Think of the harmonies we have missed out on.

Yeah I agree with this. I think its a combination of he doesn't want them to and also at times (like TANGO) where even if he did want them to they weren't there for it (at least, the case with Stevie).

[ViscountViktor]

Lindsey adding Stevie to his awesome GOS songs and making them non-listenable with all that horrible nasality has been hurtful for my ears. :(

I don't know what you're referring to, I just think it's sad that after Rumours Lindsey decided his songs were too good for anyone else to be on, seeming to forget he was actually in a band.

[mitzo]

I don't know what you're referring to, I just think it's sad that after Rumours Lindsey decided his songs were too good for anyone else to be on, seeming to forget he was actually in a band.

Yes and control freaking the bejeesus out of everyone else's songs at the same time.

[elle]

I don't know what you're referring to, I just think it's sad that after Rumours Lindsey decided his songs were too good for anyone else to be on, seeming to forget he was actually in a band.

i'm referring to Say You Will album. for example, listen to What's The World Coming to. nasality kicks in hard there, and makes it completely unlistenable.

to my ears, and watching Destiny rules doc, the problem was that LB didn't take all the control anymore, but shared it with Nicks to appease her. another exhibit is their 2014 EP. she co-produced, and neither was happy. he didn't take all control, and she didn't have all control either.

[HomerMcvie]

Yes and control freaking the bejeesus out of everyone else's songs at the same time.

WHERE would they have been without him?


Living in Behind The Mask land, that's where. Mediocrityville! He knew what he wanted, and got them there. They'd have NEVER been where they are now without his vision.

Prove me wrong.

[button-lip]

WHERE would they have been without him?


Living in Behind The Mask land, that's where. Mediocrityville! He knew what he wanted, and got them there. They'd have NEVER been where they are now without his vision.

Prove me wrong.

He may have been a control freak, but apparently it didn’t matter when they needed him to make them rich. They were willing to put all those differences aside for the sake of their bank accounts.

So it couldn’t have been such an horrendous experience like so many Stevie’s fans pretend to portray if she tolerated him just to be famous and rich.

That poor woman is a martyr.

[button-lip]

It really makes me laugh how shippers (not here so much). but you know some of them personally, and so do I. They HATE Christine. And only for the mere reason that she broke B/N up!! It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. They still go on and on and on to this day about how they love each other. The drugs some of these people take must be strong.

The most hilarious part is how they STILL love each other :lol::lol: And one day they will be back together....

Stevie has a very strange way of demonstrating her love. :rolleyes:

Oh, wait, it’s all Christine’s fault.

[HomerMcvie]

So it couldn’t have been such an horrendous experience like so many Stevie’s fans pretend to portray if she tolerated him just to be famous and rich.

That poor woman is a martyr.

Hey, give her a break. Poor old thing has been in the Army for 45 years! Such a tough life.

$he I$ a martyr.

[SteveMacD]

WHERE would they have been without him?

They'd have NEVER been where they are now without his vision.

Prove me wrong.
I don’t think his production style would have improved songs like “Show Me A Smile,” “Spare Me A Little of Your Love,” “Remember Me,” “Did You Ever Love Me,” “Believe Me,” “Why,” or “Come A Little Bit Closer,” and I don’t think Christine’s writing style was radically different after Lindsey joined. “Over My Head” wasn’t too far removed from “Heroes Are Hard To Find” (especially the early demo with piano) and “Say You Love Me” is very similar to “Spare Me A Little.”

Meanwhile, the Buckingham Nicks live version of “Rhiannon” is ghastly. Funny how “the blues” elevated the live version of that song into a masterpiece. John’s bassline, in a different meter, would have been a classic blues shuffle and Christine’s keyboards during the twirling echoed songs like “No Road Is the Right Road.”

Being forced to work within the context of a proper band helped him grow as a producer. He didn’t appreciate it at the time, eventually walked away from it, and came to appreciate it when he didn’t have it. I think it forced him to get to a place he wouldn’t have organically on his own.

He may have been a control freak, but apparently it didn’t matter when they needed him to make them rich. They were willing to put all those differences aside for the sake of their bank accounts.
He made them rich? LOL!

How much money did he make off the songs from OOTC? How much money did he make off the songs from TITN? I’m sure “Big Love” would have been the biggest hit single of his career without the intrigue of it being the first new Fleetwood Mac song in five years and a cool video with the gang. Also, it’s interesting that TITN’s sales went up after he quit. The tour he wasn’t on significantly helped sales. So, he made money doing nothing. In other words, he did the heavy lifting of making the album and they did the heavy lifting of selling the album.

Fleetwood Mac made six albums post-Peter Green, pre-Lindsey/Stevie. Those six albums sold more than Lindsey’s six solo albums. “Law & Order,” his highest charting solo album, peaked at #32. “Heroes Are Hard To Find” peaked at #34. Meanwhile, “Bella Donna” sold more than “Tusk” and “Mirage.”

[ViscountViktor]

i'm referring to Say You Will album. for example, listen to What's The World Coming to. nasality kicks in hard there, and makes it completely unlistenable.

to my ears, and watching Destiny rules doc, the problem was that LB didn't take all the control anymore, but shared it with Nicks to appease her. another exhibit is their 2014 EP. she co-produced, and neither was happy. he didn't take all control, and she didn't have all control either.

But at least with Stevie singing with him, it sounds like an actual band. Most of his songs on Tusk, Mirage and TITN are just him.

What makes it such a shame is how good they were when they did all properly collaborate.

[mitzo]

But at least with Stevie singing with him, it sounds like an actual band. Most of his songs on Tusk, Mirage and TITN are just him.

What makes it such a shame is how good they were when they did all properly collaborate.

His real contribution to the band was production on the girls' songs. His own songs with FM after Rumours were mostly just him. And the only hit from any of that was Big Love, really.

[elle]

His real contribution to the band was production on the girls' songs. His own songs with FM after Rumours were mostly just him. And the only hit from any of that was Big Love, really.

Tusk and Sara were hits from Tusk.

Hold Me and Gypsy were hits from Mirage. (was Gypsy last Nicks FM hit?)

last FM huge hits from all 5 were Christine's Everywhere and Little Lies, besides Big Love.

Peacekeeper was all over the radio when i didn't even pay attention to FM or LB, so guessing that was a hit too.

[ViscountViktor]

Tusk and Sara were hits from Tusk.

Hold Me and Gypsy were hits from Mirage. (was Gypsy last Nicks FM hit?)

last FM huge hits from all 5 were Christine's Everywhere and Little Lies, besides Big Love.

Peacekeeper was all over the radio when i didn't even pay attention to FM or LB, so guessing that was a hit too.

I think they mean out of Lindsey's post 1979 songs.

Which is an interesting theory, that Lindsey put all the work into the girl's songs so that he could enjoy his own stuff all on his own, not letting anyone else in.

[HomerMcvie]

His real contribution to the band was production on the girls' songs. His own songs with FM after Rumours were mostly just him. And the only hit from any of that was Big Love, really.

Listen to the demo of Hold Me, and what the final product was, and see how important his production was to the songs.

Sure, the bones of the song were there, but not the magic!

Gypsy, even more so!

[elle]

I think they mean out of Lindsey's post 1979 songs.

Which is an interesting theory, that Lindsey put all the work into the girl's songs so that he could enjoy his own stuff all on his own, not letting anyone else in.

no, the person stated post-Rumours. not post-Tusk.

and yes, Tusk was a hit, still is, and very much a band song. but then many other Tusk songs are not. it runs the gamut.

and then on Mirage, Lindsey worked hard on girls songs, making little masterpieces from Hold Me and Gypsy. and then on Tango Lindsey and Chris worked together, producing a relatively cohesive album.

in the last 15 or so years, Lindsey tried extremely hard to go for that band thing that you and others mention and crave. Stevie wouldn't have it. however he (and Mick) tried to entice her, she kept refusing. then Chris came back and jumped right in! that's why BuckVie sounds so much Fleetwood Mac-y. because those songs were meant to entice Stevie to work all together as a band again. recreate from the ground up, building songs together, that magic that so many here crave and that was broken after Rumours.

[HomerMcvie]

that's why BuckVie sounds so much Fleetwood Mac-y. because those songs were meant to entice Stevie to work all together as a band again. recreate from the ground up, building songs together, that magic that so many here crave and that was broken after Rumours.

Because it's ALL the musicians that are in Fleetwood Mac on it?(yeah, Goat ain't a musician - PLONK PLONK PLONK!)


We know what's broken about FM.


Mick's meal ticket.


Her High Goatness.

[SteveMacD]

We know what's broken about FM.

Still is, too. Just ask Mick, Christine, Campbell, and Finn. I almost hope they do an album without her, again.

[tabruns]

His real contribution to the band was production on the girls' songs. His own songs with FM after Rumours were mostly just him. And the only hit from any of that was Big Love, really.

Well "Peacekeeper" was a hit, on AC and making #80 on the Billboard Hot 100, which is about the best a legacy band can do.

[ViscountViktor]

no, the person stated post-Rumours. not post-Tusk.

and yes, Tusk was a hit, still is, and very much a band song. but then many other Tusk songs are not. it runs the gamut.

and then on Mirage, Lindsey worked hard on girls songs, making little masterpieces from Hold Me and Gypsy. and then on Tango Lindsey and Chris worked together, producing a relatively cohesive album.

in the last 15 or so years, Lindsey tried extremely hard to go for that band thing that you and others mention and crave. Stevie wouldn't have it. however he (and Mick) tried to entice her, she kept refusing. then Chris came back and jumped right in! that's why BuckVie sounds so much Fleetwood Mac-y. because those songs were meant to entice Stevie to work all together as a band again. recreate from the ground up, building songs together, that magic that so many here crave and that was broken after Rumours.

I meant including Tusk.

Why are none of the girls on any of Lindsey's Mirage or Tusk songs? Tango obviously Stevie was barely around so it's understandable, but she was literally sitting in the studio for the entirety of Tusk and Mirage and was completely wasted.

I'm not even sure Chris is on Lindsey's songs on BuckVie, if she is it's not obvious and she's certainly not on all of them, like he is on hers.

[elle]

I'm not even sure Chris is on Lindsey's songs on BuckVie, if she is it's not obvious and she's certainly not on all of them, like he is on hers.

Chris actually took and re-wrote some of originally Lindsey songs on Buckingham McVie, not just that she's on them. she is even lead singer on some of them. Think Red Sun. that was originally Lindsey's song.

Chris and Lindsey collaborate, add on to each other, work around each other, and enjoy that. look at how many co-writes are on Buckingham McVie. some of them started as Lindsey FM songs before Chris came back, while others started as Chris songs that she sent to him to collaborate.

and yes, toxic relationship and constant one-upmanship between Stevie and Lindsey has been a problem that started manifesting itself after Rumours and was definitely not helpful for band working as a unity. they both were probably picking their battles and that resulted in uneven although sometimes interesting products.

[ViscountViktor]

Chris actually took and re-wrote some of originally Lindsey songs on Buckingham McVie, not just that she's on them. she is even lead singer on some of them. Think Red Sun. that was originally Lindsey's song.

Chris and Lindsey collaborate, add on to each other, work around each other, and enjoy that. look at how many co-writes are on Buckingham McVie. some of them started as Lindsey FM songs before Chris came back, while others started as Chris songs that she sent to him to collaborate.

and yes, toxic relationship and constant one-upmanship between Stevie and Lindsey has been a problem that started manifesting itself after Rumours and was definitely not helpful for band working as a unity. they both were probably picking their battles and that resulted in uneven although sometimes interesting products.

Interesting, I didn't know Red Sun was originally Lindsey's. But still, Lindsey is singing on all 5 songs on BuckVie that Chris sings lead on, Chris definitely doesn't sing on all 5 of Lindsey's leads. Point is that after Rumours, Lindsey doesn't like sharing his tracks, which made a mockery of Fleetwood Mac being a 'band'.

I just think it's sad, what we missed out on had he allowed others in. But then strangely on Say You Will Stevie is all over his songs. Probably because he was forced to as part of her agreeing to do it.

[elle]

Interesting, I didn't know Red Sun was originally Lindsey's. But still, Lindsey is singing on all 5 songs on BuckVie that Chris sings lead on, Chris definitely doesn't sing on all 5 of Lindsey's leads. Point is that after Rumours, Lindsey doesn't like sharing his tracks, which made a mockery of Fleetwood Mac being a 'band'.

I just think it's sad, what we missed out on had he allowed others in. But then strangely on Say You Will Stevie is all over his songs. Probably because he was forced to as part of her agreeing to do it.

guess you didn't have much interest in Buckingham McVie. it was all over their interviews at the time.

right, that's my point - your premise is flawed. there are tons of Lindsey tracks that are not "solo" after Rumours era, as you yourself point out. there are a good number that are solo too, sure. but it's not all or nothing, the way your theory is trying to present it.

so blaming it all on Lindsey doesn't work. he was trying really really hard to make a band album the last 15 years. there is someone else in that band who was putting a brake on it, repeatedly. we could have had several FM band albums since 2004. it's disingenuous to use the fact that Stevie repeatedly put a stop on those possible albums as an argument that it's all Lindsey's fault.

btw, I don't think Lindsey sings on Carnival Begins. and live, he definitely didn't sing on Too Far Gone (except maybe "too. far. gone" part, that the whole band sang on.

[UnwindedDreams]

I don't think Lindsey sings on Carnival Begins. and live, he definitely didn't sing on Too Far Gone (except maybe "too. far. gone" part, that the whole band sang on.

I swear I could hear Lindsey sining on the chorus of Carnival Begin. I hear that voice with the effect he uses. It's a very soft voice.

Where I try hardest to listen for him is one spot in "Caution" I don't think it's called the bridge section. It's the CAU-UUA-TION. I can't tell if it's Lindsey and Brandon or just Brandon!

[elle]

I swear I could hear Lindsey sining on the chorus of Carnival Begin. I hear that voice with the effect he uses. It's a very soft voice.

Where I try hardest to listen for him is one spot in "Caution" I don't think it's called the bridge section. It's the CAU-UUA-TION. I can't tell if it's Lindsey and Brandon or just Brandon!

yes! there is that one part in Caution that sounds soo so Lindsey ("Straight out of the news"). i have been re-listening to that part and couldn't figure it out, same as you. can be either way. and we know he contributed some of his production tricks to the track, from what Ronnie was saying.

[michelej1]

yes! there is that one part in Caution that sounds soo so Lindsey ("Straight out of the news"). i have been re-listening to that part and couldn't figure it out, same as you. can be either way. and we know he contributed some of his production tricks to the track, from what Ronnie was saying.

I think I hear him on Caution.

[SteveMacD]

How in the hell are you not grasping the question as to whether or not CHRISTINE sang on any of LINDSEY’S songs on LBCM?

That’s the entire premise of this thread. Aside from SYW (and “Eyes of the World”), Lindsey didn’t have the girls sing on his songs after “Rumours.”

[elle]

How in the hell are you not grasping the question as to whether or not CHRISTINE sang on any of LINDSEY’S songs on LBCM?

That’s the entire premise of this thread. Aside from SYW (and “Eyes of the World”), Lindsey didn’t have the girls sing on his songs after “Rumours.”

not sure who are you yelling at.... but some of us don't like people yelling and cursing.

Sad Angel. Red Sun. Miss Fantasy. :shrug:

yes. aside from.

[SteveMacD]

not sure who are you yelling at.... but some of us don't like people yelling and cursing.

Sad Angel. Red Sun. Miss Fantasy. :shrug:

yes. aside from.

Okay, AND EP...:rolleyes: (forgive me for forgetting about something that was a thing for like five minutes). I guess I should also mention “The Dance,” too, while I’m at it.

“Red Sun” is a CHRISTINE vocal, so that doesn’t answer the very simple question as to whether or not Christine sang or played on any of the songs LINDSEY sang lead vocals on, but I suspect you’re intentionally being an obtuse pain in the ass instead of actually answering a simple question.

[elle]

Okay, AND EP...:rolleyes: (forgive me for forgetting about something that was a thing for like five minutes). I guess I should also mention “The Dance,” too, while I’m at it.

“Red Sun” is a CHRISTINE vocal, so that doesn’t answer the very simple question as to whether or not Christine sang or played on any of the songs LINDSEY sang lead vocals on, but I suspect you’re intentionally being an obtuse pain in the ass instead of actually answering a simple question.

Steve. you need to calm down and stop yelling and insulting people. nobody is here so that you can question them either. and maybe you should read the title of the thread too, before claiming it's about something completely different.

Red Sun was originally a Lindsey song. Christine added lyrics to his music. she is singing a lead on his song. which part of that is so hard to understand?

you are arguing how somehow he is not "letting" her sing a backup on his songs - meanwhile he is not only "letting her" sing back up but she is singing lead on his song. Red Sun alone shoots down your whole premise. i understand you don't like it, but there it is. you know - collaboration. :):woohoo:

[SteveMacD]

Steve. you need to calm down and stop yelling and insulting people. nobody is here so that you can question them either. and maybe you should read the title of the thread too, before claiming it's about something completely different.

Red Sun was originally a Lindsey song. Christine added lyrics to his music. she is singing a lead on his song. which part of that is so hard to understand?

you are arguing how somehow he is not "letting" her sing a backup on his songs - meanwhile he is not only "letting her" sing back up but she is singing lead on his song. Red Sun alone shoots down your whole premise. i understand you don't like it, but there it is. you know - collaboration. :):woohoo:

No it doesn’t. That’s a collaboration. He had the music, which was probably intended for Stevie, and she added lyrics and melody. In publishing, Christine would be considered 75% writer.

However, HIS songs (as opposed to THEIR songs), the ones he sang lead on, weren’t collaborations. Did Christine sing on THOSE?

[UnwindedDreams]

“Red Sun” is a CHRISTINE vocal, so that doesn’t answer the very simple question as to whether or not Christine sang or played on any of the songs LINDSEY sang lead vocals on, but I suspect you’re intentionally being an obtuse pain in the ass instead of actually answering a simple question.

I want to state I disagree with this bullying of Elle. Would a male also be called the same in this context? Or demanded of to answer to someone here.

To my ears, Christine sings on the chorus of Love Is Here to Stay, On With the Show, and Lay Down for Free.

[mitzo]

I guess the reason Lindsey insisted on filling FM albums with his own solo work (that nobody wanted to hear) is his failed solo career and jealousy of Stevie's success. It was always his way of asserting himself and "getting even". It hurt the band as a number of cuts on albums were unlistenable to the majority of fans, and caused the group to basically stop recording at all as Stevie just shut down any efforts to try again.

[SteveMacD]

I want to state I disagree with this bullying of Elle. Would a male also be called the same in this context? Or demanded of to answer to someone here.
Bullying?!? :laugh:

Yes, for the record, I absolutely would criticize a man for intentionally being an obtuse pain in the ass if he was intentionally being an obtuse pain in ass.

It was obvious what the initial question was and Elle kept intentionally dodging it by bringing up irrelevant examples, going to great lengths to not answer the question or simply say she didn’t know.

To my ears, Christine sings on the chorus of Love Is Here to Stay, On With the Show, and Lay Down for Free.

Maybe. It’s hard for me to distinctly hear her in there if she even is. It could just as easily the Fairlight.

[jmn3]

I guess the reason Lindsey insisted on filling FM albums with his own solo work (that nobody wanted to hear) is his failed solo career and jealousy of Stevie's success. It was always his way of asserting himself and "getting even". It hurt the band as a number of cuts on albums were unlistenable to the majority of fans, and caused the group to basically stop recording at all as Stevie just shut down any efforts to try again.

Um...cool take? Lindsey's solo stuff has rarely been something I am a big fan of (with some notable exceptions) and I would agree that some of his stuff on it's own is very un-Fleetwood Mac. But let's not just suggest that Stevie only brought gems to the sessions. Some of what ended up on any post-solo career Fleetwood Mac albums by any of the three were absolute pieces of trash that could be considered unlistenable to a majority of fans. If I never heard When I See You Again, Welcome to the Room, Sara, Sweet/Silver Girl, or Without You again, I would be absolutely fine. They belong in the same garbage heap of outtakes as Family Man, My Little Demon, and Red Rover.

[jmn3]

Bullying?!? :laugh:

Yes, for the record, I absolutely would criticize a man for intentionally being an obtuse pain in the ass if he was intentionally being an obtuse pain in ass.

It was obvious what the initial question was and Elle kept intentionally dodging it by bringing up irrelevant examples, going to great lengths to not answer the question or simply say she didn’t know.



Maybe. It’s hard for me to distinctly hear her in there if she even is. It could just as easily the Fairlight.

To be fair, I would classify a lot of your posts to you being an obtuse pain in the ass just to be one. I would use that on a lot of men and women (and any other gender classifications one wants to use) on this board.

Also being fair, I agree with you that Lindsey's Fleetwood Mac songs would have benefited by including more of Christine and Stevie's voices over the years. This particular group of 5 has always been better together than any one of the individuals on their own. They all brought some critical ingredient to the pot that made those first albums fire. And yes, that includes Stevie. She's become an insufferable shrew
and her crap over the last two decades have resulted in a creative permafrost on the band culminating in her getting Lindsey fired and then going out with a ridiculous, unnecessary, and nonsensical version of the band in 2018-19. However, her input and presence was key to their achievements over the years.

[ViscountViktor]

guess you didn't have much interest in Buckingham McVie. it was all over their interviews at the time.

right, that's my point - your premise is flawed. there are tons of Lindsey tracks that are not "solo" after Rumours era, as you yourself point out. there are a good number that are solo too, sure. but it's not all or nothing, the way your theory is trying to present it.

so blaming it all on Lindsey doesn't work. he was trying really really hard to make a band album the last 15 years. there is someone else in that band who was putting a brake on it, repeatedly. we could have had several FM band albums since 2004. it's disingenuous to use the fact that Stevie repeatedly put a stop on those possible albums as an argument that it's all Lindsey's fault.

btw, I don't think Lindsey sings on Carnival Begins. and live, he definitely didn't sing on Too Far Gone (except maybe "too. far. gone" part, that the whole band sang on.

God you're unpleasant to converse with on here. Let's end this conversation.

[ViscountViktor]

How in the hell are you not grasping the question as to whether or not CHRISTINE sang on any of LINDSEY’S songs on LBCM?

That’s the entire premise of this thread. Aside from SYW (and “Eyes of the World”), Lindsey didn’t have the girls sing on his songs after “Rumours.”

Thank you. Exactly my point.

[ViscountViktor]

If Red Sun even was a Lindsey song, he probably gave the lead to Christine so the album would be split 50/50. That's really not my point.

ALL of Christine's leads on BuckVie have Lindsey on them. If Chris is on Lindsey's leads, it is very hard to make out and could easily be him putting his voice through effects, which is what he preferred to do for the MAJORITY of his 'band contributions' post Rumours. Fact.

I love loads of Lindsey's stuff post Rumours. Tusk is my favourite Mac album. But it doesn't stop my feeling that his songs would've been elevated more if he had actually allowed other people on them, in the spirit of, you know, this band he was in. I don't know the reason for it, but it comes across as selfish.

I mean, Stevie was sat in the studio for Tusk and Mirage for hours doing f*ck all. He could've actually used her.

[tabruns]

Point is that after Rumours, Lindsey doesn't like sharing his tracks, which made a mockery of Fleetwood Mac being a 'band'.

I just think it's sad, what we missed out on had he allowed others in. But then strangely on Say You Will Stevie is all over his songs. Probably because he was forced to as part of her agreeing to do it.

I think FM would have benefited from Lindsey taking a more band-approach too. But regarding SAY YOU WILL, I think Buckingham and Nicks sharing vocals on most of the songs was because they were trying to avoid a "two solo albums put together" feel; and still some critics view SAY YOU WILL that way anyway.

[tabruns]

Just read GET TUSKED.

Interesting to get an inside view of how that album went down. Buckingham going back and forth between wanting to do his own thing and then back to a more band approach and back again was interesting.

Also Caillat saying at one point they had at least four tracked songs from each of the songwriters and they could have stopped there with a single album and more balanced input from each. I've always wondered what songs Mac would have gone with, had they decided TUSK was going to be a single album.

Apparently part of the reason Nicks has fewer songs on the album is because Buckingham wasn't interested in working on some of them ("The Dealer" presented as an example).

Other bits:

McVie thinking "Honey Hi" could be a hit. Also thinking "Storms" sounded "dodgy" when she first heard it.

"What Makes You Think You're The One" was a lyrical and musical slam on Nicks, down to Buckingham deliberately playing simplistic piano and doing a vibrato with his voice.

Caillat apparently thinking that several of Buckingham's songs would have sounded amazing if Buckingham hadn't insisted on "do everything 180 from where it should be".

J. McVie saying "Never Forget" "sounded awful" when they first worked on it.

Caillat's implied criticism that as the album grew into a double it skewed towards Buckingham, noting that none of Buckingham's songs were rejected, 1 of McVie's was (wonder what song that is?), and multiple Nicks songs were.

Combination of "TUSK actually sold well" and "here's why TUSK didn't sell well" presented: TUSK has sold 6.6 million and if you add in singles and "other formats" (?) sales are 9.2 million. Reasons/excuses why it didn't - Pushed out by Warners as a way too expensive double album; album played over the radio in its entirety before release; left-turn musically too much for some fans.

Overall I was surprised that the band comes off as more productive than has generally been understood, at least when they'd get down to tracking a particular song. I also thought there'd have been more in-studio viciousness presented than there was - but maybe Caillat just didn't dwell on that.

[SteveMacD]

"What Makes You Think You're The One" was a lyrical and musical slam on Nicks, down to Buckingham deliberately playing simplistic piano and doing a vibrato with his voice.

Show of hands: Who listened to WMYTYTO after reading this quote? :wavey:

[elle]

I want to state I disagree with this bullying of Elle. Would a male also be called the same in this context? Or demanded of to answer to someone here.

thank you. unfortunately there's too much bullying in general, these days. people resorting to name calling when they have no good counter-arguments.

i don't think in Steve's case it's misogyny. just exasperation on having to backtrack on points he's trying to push.

[elle]

Also being fair, I agree with you that Lindsey's Fleetwood Mac songs would have benefited by including more of Christine and Stevie's voices over the years. This particular group of 5 has always been better together than any one of the individuals on their own. They all brought some critical ingredient to the pot that made those first albums fire. And yes, that includes Stevie. She's become an insufferable shrew
and her crap over the last two decades have resulted in a creative permafrost on the band culminating in her getting Lindsey fired and then going out with a ridiculous, unnecessary, and nonsensical version of the band in 2018-19. However, her input and presence was key to their achievements over the years.
agree with almost everything in this post. :nod:

the only part i'm not so sure about is "always" in the sentence i bolded. while the sum was definitely better than the separate parts initially, after Rumours, huge fame and huge egos, it all fell apart. here and there glimpses of it resurfaced on some of the songs, but never on the whole album anymore, with all 5. FM fans keep trying to re-catch that lightening in the bottle and keep claiming that can still be the case. Lindsey and Mick and Christine on and off kept trying since the Dance, too. it didn't happen. it's been 40 years plus since it last happened.

[jmn3]

agree with almost everything in this post. :nod:

the only part i'm not so sure about is "always" in the sentence i bolded. while the sum was definitely better than the separate parts initially, after Rumours, huge fame and huge egos, it all fell apart. here and there glimpses of it resurfaced on some of the songs, but never on the whole album anymore, with all 5. FM fans keep trying to re-catch that lightening in the bottle and keep claiming that can still be the case. Lindsey and Mick and Christine on and off kept trying since the Dance, too. it didn't happen. it's been 40 years plus since it last happened.

I think we're actually saying the same thing, elle. My point was that after Rumours, they never really naturally worked together in an organic way (oh god, I sound like LB....where's the cycles?) on an entire album which resulted in the fragmented approach you see on Tusk, Mirage, Tango, Say You Will...with fragmented and disjointed results. It's not bad...I mean Tusk has amazing moments..Gypsy is one of the most beautifully produced songs that I know...and I love pieces of the others from each of the songwriters. But there hasn't been another Rumours and there won't be. You're right, they've been trying to recapture that for 40+ years and have failed each time because their egos, solo careers, and competition with and hatred of each other just kept getting in the way. Once they made money on The Dance and saw the market for money following in the steps of The Eagles, it was too late. There was little desire to even try to let the creative juices fly. When they tried with Say You Will...it led to Stevie icing anything further.

[HomerMcvie]

I think we're actually saying the same thing, elle. My point was that after Rumours, they never really naturally worked together in an organic way (oh god, I sound like LB....where's the cycles?) on an entire album which resulted in the fragmented approach you see on Tusk, Mirage, Tango, Say You Will...with fragmented and disjointed results. It's not bad...I mean Tusk has amazing moments..Gypsy is one of the most beautifully produced songs that I know...and I love pieces of the others from each of the songwriters. But there hasn't been another Rumours and there won't be. You're right, they've been trying to recapture that for 40+ years and have failed each time because their egos, solo careers, and competition with and hatred of each other just kept getting in the way. Once they made money on The Dance and saw the market for money following in the steps of The Eagles, it was too late. There was little desire to even try to let the creative juices fly. When they tried with Say You Will...it led to Stevie icing anything further.
They were too old by the Dance, anyway. Not that you can't still be creative, BUT...

I think most artists(not all) have their extremely creative period early on, in their 20's and 30's. When they're still hungry.

Once you're a multimillionaire, there's not much hunger left. Lindsey still had something to prove with Tusk. By Mirage, they'd turned back to formula, trying to recreate the poppy Rumours sound. Sales were just as important as any ground breaking creativity. More important, actually. Praying to the commercial gods...

[ViscountViktor]

Sorry to keep going on but I'm just listening to Tusk and there are so many opportunities for full band harmonies which instead is just Lindsey and his vocal effects, it's actually tragic.

And even when they are harmonising on something like Think About Me, Stevie's part is so low in the mix and is doubled by Lindsey anyway so you can barely hear it.

What a waste. A dysfunctional band with selfish egotistic individuals who hated working together. I wonder why Stevie just sat there and allowed herself to be used so little.

[SteveMacD]

I wonder why Stevie just sat there and allowed herself to be used so little.

She was busy setting up a solo career.

[ViscountViktor]

She was busy setting up a solo career.

Easy to see why. Most popular member of the group and not being used in favour of about 8 Lindseys on each track.

[tabruns]

Easy to see why. Most popular member of the group and not being used in favour of about 8 Lindseys on each track.

Well I think there was a slow transition from being unsure of herself during the FLEETWOOD MAC album to getting increasingly fed up with how the rest of the band would tend to dismiss her contributions.

Another factor could be that outside influences like Petty and the guy who eventually set up Modern were all seeing the dynamic in the band and stunned that the most popular band member had so little say in the studio.

Caillat references this too when he talks a bit about the band would be dismissive of Nicks's songs, saying "eventually this would come back to bite them in the ass" (meaning, it would push Nicks to seek out a solo career and launch BELLA DONNA).

[elle]

[QUOTE=tabruns;1258041Another factor could be that outside influences like Petty and the guy who eventually set up Modern were all seeing the dynamic in the band and stunned that the most popular band member had so little say in the studio.).[/QUOTE]

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Very interesting! I always heard Stevie fans riffing on this ( as being a great example in this thread as well as during Micks m&gs where Stevie fans refused to believe Muck when he said Stevie is not a musical director etc for their live shows) but I never heard of Petty or any of the musicians espouse that Stevie should have more control in the studio with FM because she’s the most popular?

[UnwindedDreams]

I never heard of Petty or any of the musicians espouse that Stevie should have more control in the studio with FM because she’s the most popular?
Yes, the only thing I can recall Tom saying about Stevie's studio life with FM was his quote from I think Stevie's RS profile:
“Stevie and Lindsey both made really good records on their own, but when we all get excited is when they get together,” says Petty. “As with a lot of bands, when they realize that they’re gonna have to spend their lives together, they get a little grumpy with each other, because they know they’re joined at the hip.”

[ViscountViktor]

Just listening to Angel and the way that Lindsey joins Stevie for the chorus, and then Christine comes in for the second verse. That is the kind of vocal combinations that make the band magic, but these moments are so rare after Rumours due to egos and hating working with each other.

[johnnystorms]

Easy to see why. Most popular member of the group and not being used in favour of about 8 Lindseys on each track.

Absolutely agree. She was Lindsey's 'ex' and Chris' "little sister" in the initial band dynamic, and after becoming the breakout star to the public, the internal band hierarchy never changed. Sooooooo…. she went her "own way".

[elle]

Absolutely agree. She was Lindsey's 'ex' and Chris' "little sister" in the initial band dynamic, and after becoming the breakout star to the public, the internal band hierarchy never changed. Sooooooo…. she went her "own way".

i think you are onto something. :nod::nod: the main band dynamic didn't really change for decades, but it was just slowly shifting. it did very much shift for Chris when she left and came back though, she lost all her power - or she perceived that she lost it.

the only part of what you wrote that is inaccurate is that Stevie went her own way. if she did, neither Stevie fans or Fleetwood Mac fans would have a problem with it. and in the band, only FM member who would have a problem with it would be money thirsty Mick.

instead of going her own way - which she fully could have when she was on the top, and it would have made way healthier atmosphere for everyone (just watch recording of Buckingham McVie video!), seems she was bent on proving to everyone inside the band (well, lets be real - mainly to Lindsey!) that she can and should be in control of Fleetwood Mac, and everyone outside that she IS Fleetwood Mac.

took her decades, and finally she was successful in 2018. now, Mick doesn't even have a control of Fleetwood Mac social media anymore. they post Stevie solo stuff, but they never posted anything about Mick's big London tribute to original Fleetwood Mac.

[Macfan4life]

There is a similar theme I brought up in the Mirage thread about Stevie being used so little. IMHO, the Mac knew of Stevie's popularity and how the crowd roared when she spun around on stage or hit the bathroom when she left the stage. It annoyed them she sometimes would be referred to as the "lead singer' of Fleetwood Mac. I believe the band mostly from Lindsey went out of the way to make sure she was not seen controlling the band or as a lead singer. Stevie never had the lead single off any Fleetwood Mac album even after Christine left. Stevie never had the lead song off any album except one (Angel on Tusk which was a double album). Coincidence, I think not.
Things really got extreme during Mirage. Stevie just came off a hugely successful Bella Donna and the band was not going to budge but to give Stevie 3 songs.
Stevie had incredible material in 1982. The Mac created this wonderful demo of Sleeping Angel that she ended up recording almost exactly like the Mac demo and giving it away to Fast Times soundtrack. She had amazing demos like Smile At You yet they were passed over for Oh Diane? If the band was objective they would make sure the best songs went on the album even if it meant taking one song from Lindsey and give another spot to Stevie. But no way in hell they were going to showcase Stevie's songs after Bella Donna.

[BLY]

There is a similar theme I brought up in the Mirage thread about Stevie being used so little. IMHO, the Mac knew of Stevie's popularity and how the crowd roared when she spun around on stage or hit the bathroom when she left the stage. It annoyed them she sometimes would be referred to as the "lead singer' of Fleetwood Mac. I believe the band mostly from Lindsey went out of the way to make sure she was not seen controlling the band or as a lead singer. Stevie never had the lead single off any Fleetwood Mac album even after Christine left. Stevie never had the lead song off any album except one (Angel on Tusk which was a double album). Coincidence, I think not.
Things really got extreme during Mirage. Stevie just came off a hugely successful Bella Donna and the band was not going to budge but to give Stevie 3 songs.
Stevie had incredible material in 1982. The Mac created this wonderful demo of Sleeping Angel that she ended up recording almost exactly like the Mac demo and giving it away to Fast Times soundtrack. She had amazing demos like Smile At You yet they were passed over for Oh Diane? If the band was objective they would make sure the best songs went on the album even if it meant taking one song from Lindsey and give another spot to Stevie. But no way in hell they were going to showcase Stevie's songs after Bella Donna.

Yes..that pretty much is what happened which is a shame. Stevie said she did the solo thing because of only having 2 songs on an Album wasn’t enough. Well, she obviously wasn’t interested in being in a band.

[button-lip]

I don't think she started a solo career because she didn't have enough songs on each album. She wanted the solo thing, no doubt about that. Besides, she had so much material it was impossible to put it all in the band's albums.
Please, no one pushed her to a solo career! She always wanted to be in charge and she realized the only way to do it was with a solo career. :shrug:

[ViscountViktor]

There is a similar theme I brought up in the Mirage thread about Stevie being used so little. IMHO, the Mac knew of Stevie's popularity and how the crowd roared when she spun around on stage or hit the bathroom when she left the stage. It annoyed them she sometimes would be referred to as the "lead singer' of Fleetwood Mac. I believe the band mostly from Lindsey went out of the way to make sure she was not seen controlling the band or as a lead singer. Stevie never had the lead single off any Fleetwood Mac album even after Christine left. Stevie never had the lead song off any album except one (Angel on Tusk which was a double album). Coincidence, I think not.
Things really got extreme during Mirage. Stevie just came off a hugely successful Bella Donna and the band was not going to budge but to give Stevie 3 songs.
Stevie had incredible material in 1982. The Mac created this wonderful demo of Sleeping Angel that she ended up recording almost exactly like the Mac demo and giving it away to Fast Times soundtrack. She had amazing demos like Smile At You yet they were passed over for Oh Diane? If the band was objective they would make sure the best songs went on the album even if it meant taking one song from Lindsey and give another spot to Stevie. But no way in hell they were going to showcase Stevie's songs after Bella Donna.

This is spot on. It was spite and jealousy from Lindsey, understandable in a way seeing as he had literally brought her into the band, and in the eyes of the public she had usurped him as the force behind Fleetwood Mac. So he basically got her to do as little as possible without the fans complaining, hence we have Mirage and Tango where she is on a combined total of 8 songs. Less than a full album.

[elle]

This is spot on. It was spite and jealousy from Lindsey, understandable in a way seeing as he had literally brought her into the band, and in the eyes of the public she had usurped him as the force behind Fleetwood Mac. So he basically got her to do as little as possible without the fans complaining, hence we have Mirage and Tango where she is on a combined total of 8 songs. Less than a full album.

:laugh: aren't you bored yet of posting the same basic statement in different way for like a month now?

Stevie dumped Lindsey. you may be the kind of person who will do everything you can to lift up and help the partner that dumped you and doesn't let you move on, but most people have hard time dealing with that. Lindsey has been very clear in interviews that it was hard to do. :shrug:

[mitzo]

:laugh: aren't you bored yet of posting the same basic statement in different way for like a month now?

Stevie dumped Lindsey. you may be the kind of person who will do everything you can to lift up and help the partner that dumped you and doesn't let you move on, but most people have hard time dealing with that. Lindsey has been very clear in interviews that it was hard to do. :shrug:

It is likely that she dumped him as he became increasingly bitter and jealous that she captured the fame and not him. He really should have been grateful that she made him rich.

[UnwindedDreams]

It is likely that she dumped him as he became increasingly bitter and jealous that she captured the fame and not him. He really should have been grateful that she made him rich.
Do you wish the worst for Lindsey?

[lbfan]

It is likely that she dumped him as he became increasingly bitter and jealous that she captured the fame and not him. He really should have been grateful that she made him rich.

It is pretty well documented that their breakup started before they even joined FM (“cracks in the relationship”), before the hit records and the fame.

[jmn3]

It is likely that she dumped him as he became increasingly bitter and jealous that she captured the fame and not him. He really should have been grateful that she made him rich.

It's almost as if you don't have any knowledge of the timeline of Fleetwood Mac history as it relates to these two, their relationship, and it's long demise.