Needham vs. Lord-Alge / SYW

[cbBen]

For all the back and forth in Destiny Rules over who would mix the album, to my ear Lord-Alge ("Destiny Rules") and Needham (everything else) are not particularly distinguishable from one another. "Destiny Rules" is generally mixed like the rest of the songs.

What does everyone else think?

Three other things:

1. This is a great album.
2. Boy did they pick the wrong songs for singles, and the wrong song for the title track.
3. Notwithstanding Lindsey's claim that starting with Mirage they wouldn't let him experiment, he sure does a lot of it here and on Tango.

[elle]

For all the back and forth in Destiny Rules over who would mix the album, to my ear Lord-Alge ("Destiny Rules") and Needham (everything else) are not particularly distinguishable from one another. "Destiny Rules" is generally mixed like the rest of the songs.

What does everyone else think?

Three other things:

1. This is a great album.
2. Boy did they pick the wrong songs for singles, and the wrong song for the title track.
3. Notwithstanding Lindsey's claim that starting with Mirage they wouldn't let him experiment, he sure does a lot of it here and on Tango.

Lindsey should have released his songs as original Gift of Screws, as intended. that amazing collection of songs is watered down by being sprinkled over several projects, with not all songs even being out yet. original GOS was a near masterpiece. :nod:

[DownOnRodeo]

Lindsey should have released his songs as original Gift of Screws, as intended. that amazing collection of songs is watered down by being sprinkled over several projects, with not all songs even being out yet. original GOS was a near masterpiece. :nod:

Yes--his gift (to us) got screwed (by Stevie and Mick).

[Storms123]

For all the back and forth in Destiny Rules over who would mix the album, to my ear Lord-Alge ("Destiny Rules") and Needham (everything else) are not particularly distinguishable from one another. "Destiny Rules" is generally mixed like the rest of the songs.

What does everyone else think?

Three other things:

1. This is a great album.
2. Boy did they pick the wrong songs for singles, and the wrong song for the title track.
3. Notwithstanding Lindsey's claim that starting with Mirage they wouldn't let him experiment, he sure does a lot of it here and on Tango.


I agree this is a great album, I do think SYW was a great title track. I know much has been made about "friction" during this one, and people say it was apparent in the DR documentary. I don't see it at all--I actually think they all appear to be getting along great--yes I am sure some things were scrapped for the cutting room floor, but I just don't see the drama, save for the one conversation with L,S,K.

[Ulpian]

I agree this is a great album, I do think SYW was a great title track. I know much has been made about "friction" during this one, and people say it was apparent in the DR documentary. I don't see it at all--I actually think they all appear to be getting along great--yes I am sure some things were scrapped for the cutting room floor, but I just don't see the drama, save for the one conversation with L,S,K.

The lack of Christine really killed it for me. That said, fifteen or so years on, there are a handful of tracks I think are worthy: Destiny Rules, Thrown Down, BTLH, SYHA and Say Goodbye.

[secret love]

The lack of Christine really killed it for me. That said, fifteen or so years on, there are a handful of tracks I think are worthy: Destiny Rules, Thrown Down, BTLH, SYHA and Say Goodbye.

It is funny you know, so many people say Say You Will needed more Christine, but no one ever says Buckingham/McVie needed more Stevie.

Hm, I wonder why?

They should be playing Thrown Down on the current tour. They could spin it as being about Lindsey's departure. Thrown Down by the woman he brought into the band. Could even dedicate it to Lindsey.

[Feather Blade]

It is funny you know, so many people say Say You Will needed more Christine, but no one ever says Buckingham/McVie needed more Stevie.

Hm, I wonder why?

They should be playing Thrown Down on the current tour. They could spin it as being about Lindsey's departure. Thrown Down by the woman he brought into the band. Could even dedicate it to Lindsey.

Actually people have said it could have used Stevie. "I could hear just where Stevie's voice should have been on this track" etc. Oh well, wasn't meant to be. I could have used more Christine to be honest. I felt like she was terribly underutilized on many tracks.

[DownOnRodeo]

CbBen, what song would you pick as the title track (assuming the title had to be one of the tracks)?

I like their choice of Say You Will but I haven't given others much thought. This could be a good poll idea.

[cbBen]

CbBen, what song would you pick as the title track (assuming the title had to be one of the tracks)?

I like their choice of Say You Will but I haven't given others much thought. This could be a good poll idea.

"Destiny Rules"

[AncientQueen]

It is funny you know, so many people say Say You Will needed more Christine, but no one ever says Buckingham/McVie needed more Stevie.
Hm, I wonder why?
Personally, I missed Christine so very much on SYW, but not only her playing, singing, or her melodic songs brightening the mood. I missed all of that, but much more. Without her, noone hold the egos of Stevie and Lindsey in check, noone dared to tell them when an idea was just not good enough, a song too long, lyrics too stupid or too mean. Noone filled the harmonies, or even considered giving the record a wholesome sound and atmoshere. Instead, we got two solo albums mixed together. I couldn't listen to the album without thinking: "How good would that have been with Christine on board, bringing out the best in both of them", because the album suffers from the fact that Lindsey and Stevie tend to bring out the worst in each other. There are some good songs on SYW, but they are mostly solo songs with a great rhythm section.

On Buckingham/McVie all the elements I missed on SYW are there. That album is testament of what Christine McVie did for FM without ever getting the recognition she deserved. You can hear that Lindsey respects ther, they both value the other one's contributions, you hear the good time they had in the Studio, with Mick and John. That gives the record a calm, friendly feeling, the opposite of the rather aggressive vibe that SVW gave me. It's just a beautifully done coherent album.
I only kinda missed some Stevie background-singing goodies, her voice is so interesting when used to highlight or accentuate the other two's songs. But as a songwriter, Stevie has not moved me for decades, her demo vaults must be totally empty by now. I wasn't expecting anything good from her anyway. I do understand why she didn't want to participate, she knew that both Chris and Lindsey would have crushed her with their talent, their compositions, Stevie couldn't let that happen.

[lovethemac1]

I do understand why she didn't want to participate, she knew that both Chris and Lindsey would have crushed her with their talent, their compositions, Stevie couldn't let that happen.

This is a very good point. I always struggled with WHY Stevie is avoiding them and the whole recording thing, never really sat down and thought it through, but this makes perfect sense.

[cbBen]

It could also be as simple as her standing to earn more money on the road than in the studio.

[jbrownsjr]

Personally, I missed Christine so very much on SYW, but not only her playing, singing, or her melodic songs brightening the mood. I missed all of that, but much more. Without her, noone hold the egos of Stevie and Lindsey in check, noone dared to tell them when an idea was just not good enough, a song too long, lyrics too stupid or too mean. Noone filled the harmonies, or even considered giving the record a wholesome sound and atmoshere. Instead, we got two solo albums mixed together. I couldn't listen to the album without thinking: "How good would that have been with Christine on board, bringing out the best in both of them", because the album suffers from the fact that Lindsey and Stevie tend to bring out the worst in each other. There are some good songs on SYW, but they are mostly solo songs with a great rhythm section.

On Buckingham/McVie all the elements I missed on SYW are there. That album is testament of what Christine McVie did for FM without ever getting the recognition she deserved. You can hear that Lindsey respects ther, they both value the other one's contributions, you hear the good time they had in the Studio, with Mick and John. That gives the record a calm, friendly feeling, the opposite of the rather aggressive vibe that SVW gave me. It's just a beautifully done coherent album.
I only kinda missed some Stevie background-singing goodies, her voice is so interesting when used to highlight or accentuate the other two's songs. But as a songwriter, Stevie has not moved me for decades, her demo vaults must be totally empty by now. I wasn't expecting anything good from her anyway. I do understand why she didn't want to participate, she knew that both Chris and Lindsey would have crushed her with their talent, their compositions, Stevie couldn't let that happen.


She's a true artist without having to talk about what an amazing diva or genius she is. That's what I love about the core of FMac. They do vs. talk.

[secondhandchain]

This is a very good point. I always struggled with WHY Stevie is avoiding them and the whole recording thing, never really sat down and thought it through, but this makes perfect sense.

She could have pulled 3 of those songs from the 24 Karat collection. Who cares if they weren't new. They weren't heard before by most people. Hell, lots of tracks on FM albums were songs she had written years before.

[lovethemac1]

She could have pulled 3 of those songs from the 24 Karat collection. Who cares if they weren't new. They weren't heard before by most people. Hell, lots of tracks on FM albums were songs she had written years before.

I agree with you 100%, but she would care if she didn't look capable of writing anything new, ESP in front of Lindsey and to some degree Chris. I really believe that. She's sooooo concerned about her image 24/7.

[elle]

On Buckingham/McVie all the elements I missed on SYW are there. That album is testament of what Christine McVie did for FM without ever getting the recognition she deserved. You can hear that Lindsey respects ther, they both value the other one's contributions, you hear the good time they had in the Studio, with Mick and John. That gives the record a calm, friendly feeling, the opposite of the rather aggressive vibe that SVW gave me. It's just a beautifully done coherent album.
I only kinda missed some Stevie background-singing goodies, her voice is so interesting when used to highlight or accentuate the other two's songs. But as a songwriter, Stevie has not moved me for decades, her demo vaults must be totally empty by now. I wasn't expecting anything good from her anyway. I do understand why she didn't want to participate, she knew that both Chris and Lindsey would have crushed her with their talent, their compositions, Stevie couldn't let that happen.

you seem to be agreeing with what Lindsey is saying. Lindsey and Christine still have the creativity and the drive. by all evidence from the last 10+years, it seems Stevie does not.

#vitality

[elle]

This is a very good point. I always struggled with WHY Stevie is avoiding them and the whole recording thing, never really sat down and thought it through, but this makes perfect sense.

and that's exactly Lindsey said in that Stereogum interview.

for some completely unclear reason, people have been jumping on him ever since, accusing him on "getting personal" without elaborating how is not being creatively vital anymore a personal attack.

[cbBen]

Criticizing her work isn't necessarily ill-advised, particularly now that he's out of the band. But here it was in the context of speculating publicly about her state of mind. That's what I found ill-advised.

[AncientQueen]

you seem to be agreeing with what Lindsey is saying. Lindsey and Christine still have the creativity and the drive. by all evidence from the last 10+years, it seems Stevie does not.
#vitalityI'm over Lindseys recent comments. In short: it wasn't what he said, it was when and how he said it. And that he threw Christine under the bus to make his point was uncalled for. Chris is a precious unicorn and has to be respected, protected and worshipped at all times. Lindsey should have left her out of this.

As a matter of fact, I'm not fond of Stevies solo career since she published TOSOTM. She still had some rare moments of decency (TISL), but her solo work since RAL has been mediocre (24 Carat gold) to cringeworthy (SA) or just plain intolerable (the track Desert Angel :eek: and that awful album with the f***ing horse on the cover). That has to do with her surrounding herself with "Yes, Ma'am" people. Dave Stewart for gods sake, how was that even possible? :shocked:

With FM, she fared a little better, but imho that has to do with the band being critical and honest in their opinions. She HATES that, which amuses me to no end.

There is so much to mock about Stevie, bust still, I've followed FM since 1979, FM with her in it have formed my musical taste and her songs, especially the recorded live versions up to TITN hold a special place in my heart. She was all beauty and intensity back then, I loved it. So it's a habit to like her, I still do, also for the magical live concert moments in 2003, 2009 and especially in 2013, where she basically blew me away.

But in 2015, she angered me, we payed so much money for front row tickets and she was upset about something and did not even try to be professional. Chris and Lindsey stepped in and saved the concert. She did some awkward posing I hated, and she behaved like a spoiled brat onstage, which I hated even more. As a consequence, I won't see them next year, I can't be bothered with the 2 new guys and won't risk another disappointment. I know that theyare good players, but the playing is kinda slow, too slow for my liking. Mick won't see my money this time. Also, I won't pay to hear "Free Falling" during a FM concert. That's just plain BS :mad:. Part of me is very sad about this, it's the first german tour that I won't attend since 1990 and I will not be seing Christine up close and wave a banner saying "We love you" in front of her, that's regrettable.

The #vitality thing - Noone has as much manic energy as Lindsey, but from what was recorded and what the critics write, it seems that Stevie actually put some effort into it and works hard this time. While I'm sure this comment came from him hurting, imho it was not appropriate and again, Christine is collateral damage of his cutting comments, her energy is not what it was, either. Also, I feel that he damaged his own reputation with the snide comments, it was a bad idea to go there.

[bombaysaffires]

I agree with you 100%, but she would care if she didn't look capable of writing anything new, ESP in front of Lindsey and to some degree Chris. I really believe that. She's sooooo concerned about her image 24/7.

this was why she asked the band for an extra month before going into the studio for SYW. During that month she wrote 3 new songs. Mick even talks about it in the doc-- how she didn't want to just come in with old stuff, she wanted t come in with new songs because she knew LB would have new songs.

Now I'm forgetting, I think the new ones were Silver Girl, Illume, Say You Will . (Thrown Down was already written during the previous tour).

[elle]

I'm over Lindseys recent comments. In short: it wasn't what he said, it was when and how he said it. And that he threw Christine under the bus to make his point was uncalled for. Chris is a precious unicorn and has to be respected, protected and worshipped at all times. Lindsey should have left her out of this.

except, it is very possible that Christine told him to make it public, what she wrote. and he would be throwing her under the bus if he didn't say it. :nod:

[elle]

The #vitality thing - Noone has as much manic energy as Lindsey, but from what was recorded and what the critics write.

again - you and others seem to be talking about physical energy. i guess people are just too literal?

that is NOT what he's talking about. he is talking about creativity.

[elle]

I feel that he damaged his own reputation with the snide comments, that was not even clever.

you mean the reputation about being boring person talking about organic cycles? :laugh: sure, that reputation is badly damaged now!

but if you ever met him, you'd know that he's very much a straight talker in person. which at the time when everything was boring cycles, everyone wanted him to be. well, now he's himself. many people were surprised when they actually met him at recent m&gs. i like Chris' dry humor and straight talk, and i like Lindsey's. but that might be just my personality.

[AncientQueen]

you mean the reputation about being boring person talking about organic cycles? :laugh: sure, that reputation is badly damaged now!I mean his reputation as a brilliant, underrated guitarrist with an unpleasant personality and an ego problem. Add his supposed girl-friend abusing (see that I wrote "supposed") that still follows him and has already cost him so much. So imho his reputation was never that good.

[AncientQueen]

again - you and others seem to be talking about physical energy. i guess people are just too literal?
that is NOT what he's talking about. he is talking about creativity.I do think that most people, including myself do associate #vitality with physical energy.
i feel that both definitions are not flattering towards Stevie and to an extend towards Christine.

[AncientQueen]

except, it is very possible that Christine told him to make it public, what she wrote. and he would be throwing her under the bus if he didn't say it. :nod:She could have said it herself, then. Or he could have said that she wanted him to make it public. I kinda feel that Christine is not the person who would share such a personal note with the world.

[elle]

I mean his reputation as a brilliant, underrated guitarrist with an unpleasant personality and an ego problem. Add his supposed girl-friend abusing (see that I wrote "supposed") that still follows him and has already cost him so much. So imho his reputation is not really good.

yes, because others talked and he stayed quiet. didn't exactly helped his reputation, right? especially his famous ex talked trash about him and continues to. even when receiveing what she claims is the best thing ever happening to her, she can't resist a dig at him. :shrug:

so you want him to continue just taking all that lying down and not saying anything. because it worked so well for him so far, didn't it? you just listed the littany of bs that has been pinned on him, and we really have no idea whether any, all or none of it is true. meanwhile, in personal contacts, he continues winning people over. and people who never met him insist they know better and that all the trash is true.

[elle]

She could have said it herself, then. Or he could have said that she wanted him to make it public. I kinda feel that Christine is not the person who would share such a personal note with the world.

she did say it - on CBS. they cut it out. then she said it in RS interview again. but that's just in the audio i believe, and people keep glossing over it. it seems pretty obvious she wants it out. what do you think, that she's afraid of Stevie chopping her head off if the fact that Chsritine wants Lindsey in the band is public? :lol:

there may have been tons more very personal stuff in that note for all we know. there probably was. all he shared is what she probably wanted him to. yet you and others insist that you know better than the 2 of them what they want shared. :shrug:

[AncientQueen]

so you want him to continue just taking all that lying down and not saying anything. because it worked so well for him so far, didn't it? you just listed the littany of bs that has been pinned on him, and we really have no idea whether any, all or none of it is true. meanwhile, in personal contacts, he continues winning people over. and people who never met him insist they know better and that all the trash is true.I wrote down what I know about his reputation. I do believe that he mellowed out to an extend and that he is far happier than he was back then. He was never any good in the publicitiy department and I personally feel that he came off jealous and mean spirited, especially with Stevies HoF introduction pending. That said, the BS that some fans fabricated about him and especially about his wife who has never been anything but supporting and loving is actually disgusting and has me up in arms for decades by now.

[AncientQueen]

what do you think, that she's afraid of Stevie chopping her head off if the fact that Chsritine wants Lindsey in the band is public? :lol:
I think that Christine would squish Stevie with a single cutting remark. :D

[lovethemac1]

I'm over Lindseys recent comments. In short: it wasn't what he said, it was when and how he said it. And that he threw Christine under the bus to make his point was uncalled for. Chris is a precious unicorn and has to be respected, protected and worshipped at all times. Lindsey should have left her out of this.

Lindsey has an immense amount of respect for Chris. As soon as I heard those comments, I immediately thought to myself "Chris told him to say this." He would never throw Chris under a bus.

[HomerMcvie]

Lindsey has an immense amount of respect for Chris. As soon as I heard those comments, I immediately thought to myself "Chris told him to say this." He would never throw Chris under a bus.

Agreed. He would never do that to Chris.

Now $tevie, he'd throw that old goat under the bus, run over her, back up several times and do it again. As would I, and many others here these days.

[Storms123]

Agreed. He would never do that to Chris.

Now $tevie, he'd throw that old goat under the bus, run over her, back up several times and do it again. As would I, and many others here these days.

I totally agree--Christine wants her name cleared. I think she knew LB would reveal something around the email and she's totally fine with everything he said. I am one of the few who thinks she actually needs to be held accountable for her actions (or lack of) so I 100% agree, CM is totally cool with what he said. #desperatechiffonheads

[Storms123]

Personally, I missed Christine so very much on SYW, but not only her playing, singing, or her melodic songs brightening the mood. I missed all of that, but much more. Without her, noone hold the egos of Stevie and Lindsey in check, noone dared to tell them when an idea was just not good enough, a song too long, lyrics too stupid or too mean. Noone filled the harmonies, or even considered giving the record a wholesome sound and atmoshere. Instead, we got two solo albums mixed together. I couldn't listen to the album without thinking: "How good would that have been with Christine on board, bringing out the best in both of them", because the album suffers from the fact that Lindsey and Stevie tend to bring out the worst in each other. There are some good songs on SYW, but they are mostly solo songs with a great rhythm section.

On Buckingham/McVie all the elements I missed on SYW are there. That album is testament of what Christine McVie did for FM without ever getting the recognition she deserved. You can hear that Lindsey respects ther, they both value the other one's contributions, you hear the good time they had in the Studio, with Mick and John. That gives the record a calm, friendly feeling, the opposite of the rather aggressive vibe that SVW gave me. It's just a beautifully done coherent album.
I only kinda missed some Stevie background-singing goodies, her voice is so interesting when used to highlight or accentuate the other two's songs. But as a songwriter, Stevie has not moved me for decades, her demo vaults must be totally empty by now. I wasn't expecting anything good from her anyway. I do understand why she didn't want to participate, she knew that both Chris and Lindsey would have crushed her with their talent, their compositions, Stevie couldn't let that happen.

"Red Sun" would be a killer FM song. On Buck Vie-the only song I missed Stevie on is "Red Sun"

[cbBen]

She would have helped "Lay Down For Free" which, frankly, I'm surprised the band didn't use for Extended Play.

[David]

I don't like the engineering on most of the album. The treble is bolstered over the bottom end, the sonics are so overcompressed that your ears ring, the layering is too busy (things aren't delineated the way they were on Rumours and Mirage), the drums are weak (which might be a result of emptying out the bottom end), the panning is amateurish, and the cheesy phaser effects don't need to be there at all. Sounds like the entire damn thing was mixed by guys wearing headphones. (For Rumours, they mixed with top-quality speakers.) Say You Will doesn't lie across the entire stereo spectrum cleanly like the old Dashut and Caillat work. When you listen to it, you have to EQ it track by track to your liking—and that's only a partial fix. (The album totally sucks in the tightly confined cabin of your car, as you may have noticed.)

Too much clutter on each track, too, probably a result of high-processing computers with all their bits and bytes. Every hole is filled in with data.

[bombaysaffires]

I don't like the engineering on most of the album. The treble is bolstered over the bottom end, the sonics are so overcompressed that your ears ring, the layering is too busy (things aren't delineated the way they were on Rumours and Mirage), the drums are weak (which might be a result of emptying out the bottom end), the panning is amateurish, and the cheesy phaser effects don't need to be there at all. Sounds like the entire damn thing was mixed by guys wearing headphones. (For Rumours, they mixed with top-quality speakers.) Say You Will doesn't lie across the entire stereo spectrum cleanly like the old Dashut and Caillat work. When you listen to it, you have to EQ it track by track to your liking—and that's only a partial fix. (The album totally sucks in the tightly confined cabin of your car, as you may have noticed.)

Too much clutter on each track, too, probably a result of high-processing computers with all their bits and bytes. Every hole is filled in with data.

I wasn't sure if you were commenting on SYW or BuckVie, but in some ways it doesn't matter because many of the issues are the same on both. :eek: :(

[HomerMcvie]

I wasn't sure if you were commenting on SYW or BuckVie, but in some ways it doesn't matter because many of the issues are the same on both. :eek: :(

The difference for me though, is that I love BuckVie, but could barely tolerate SYW.

BuckVie is uptempo and fun. SYW is depressing.

[TheWILDheart]

I've always found SYW to sound a lot like 2 solo albums shoved together. When I listen to, I listen to Lindsey and Stevie's songs seperately, they make 2 pretty fine solo efforts.

[bombaysaffires]

The difference for me though, is that I love BuckVie, but could barely tolerate SYW.

BuckVie is uptempo and fun. SYW is depressing.

yes, I was talking about the technicalities of how recorded, not the content material.

[HomerMcvie]

yes, I was talking about the technicalities of how recorded, not the content material.
I understand that. While neither is an artistic masterpiece, I can overlook the flaws in the one that makes me happy. That was my point. Sorry. Carry on.

[DownOnRodeo]

I've always found SYW to sound a lot like 2 solo albums shoved together. When I listen to, I listen to Lindsey and Stevie's songs seperately, they make 2 pretty fine solo efforts.

For me or anyone else who had become intimately familiar with the GoS songs as leaked back in 2000 or whenever, I guess we'll never truly know how Say You Will would have come across to us if we were hearing all the tracks for the first time. But no doubt there still would have been a considerable "Tusk" effect (i.e. a degree of incohesiveness) given the quantity and gamut of tracks.

Here is an interesting fact: despite there being more songs on the Tusk album, the Say You Will album is actually LONGER than the Tusk album (by one minute!).

What's also interesting to me is that Stevie's songs on SYW are relatively short (compared to her solo work) while Lindsey's are relatively long (compared to any of his work). I think it's fair to say that there was definitely a degree of compensation for Christine's absence in that regard, particularly by Stevie. Look at In Your Dreams--just about every song runs close to six minutes.

[secret love]

I agree with you 100%, but she would care if she didn't look capable of writing anything new, ESP in front of Lindsey and to some degree Chris. I really believe that. She's sooooo concerned about her image 24/7.

Space Needle (I love it, most hate it)
My Mother's Rings (unreleased, 2012-13 track)
City of Hope song
Grandfather Song

Finito.

[sodascouts]

Space Needle (I love it, most hate it)
My Mother's Rings (unreleased, 2012-13 track)
City of Hope song
Grandfather Song

Finito.

I love "Space Needle" as well, but the "City of Hope" song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbn6aiTUqZ8) - which I absolutely adore - is from the mid 80s, I believe, some time after Robin died. If we're talking about her bringing in "new" material, that wouldn't qualify.* Has she written a new one?

I do hope that old one sees the light of day. I love it so much. It really moves me; it really speaks to the pain of loss. Nothing will ever hurt me like this again - and you know in that very statement, you give it up, just a little bit, your child-like nature... The use of the title is both ironic and poignant: Where's this City of Hope? A powerful song.


*I suppose "Space Needle" wouldn't qualify as "new" now either, since it's from 2001, but it would in the context of SYW. I'm a bit confused as to if we're talking about now or then with the inclusion of "My Mother's Rings."

[vivfox]

Where's this City of Hope? A powerful song.


If you are asking, The City of Hope is (I think) the name of the cancer hospital where Robin and later Chris Nicks got help for their issues.

[sodascouts]

If you are asking, The City of Hope is (I think) the name of the cancer hospital where Robin and later Chris Nicks got help for their issues.

No - I was quoting the lyrics. I see now it would have been better to use quotation marks than italics for that, though, to avoid confusion.

At any rate, thank you for providing the information, because I'm sure there are probably posters who do not know this.

For anyone who wants to know more, you can visit the website here: CityofHope.org (https://www.cityofhope.org/homepage)

[gldstwmn]

For all the back and forth in Destiny Rules over who would mix the album, to my ear Lord-Alge ("Destiny Rules") and Needham (everything else) are not particularly distinguishable from one another. "Destiny Rules" is generally mixed like the rest of the songs.

What does everyone else think?

Three other things:

1. This is a great album.
2. Boy did they pick the wrong songs for singles, and the wrong song for the title track.
3. Notwithstanding Lindsey's claim that starting with Mirage they wouldn't let him experiment, he sure does a lot of it here and on Tango.

To me Destiny Rules sounds different than the rest of the album. It's got that distinct Fleetwood Mac sound.

[gldstwmn]

Dave Stewart for gods sake, how was that even possible? :shocked:



Actually Dave is pretty respected as an arranger and producer in the industry.

[David]

To me Destiny Rules sounds different than the rest of the album. It's got that distinct Fleetwood Mac sound.Yes! It's shot through with Fleetwood Mac.

There's a seventies Fleetwood Mac sound (mountain folk music and Byrds harmonies) and there's an eighties Fleetwood Mac sound (androgynous harmonies and adult contemporary [AC] music), and Destiny Rules is one of the few examples I can think of after 1979 of the seventies Fleetwood Mac sound. It's why I love it so much. It's that roots country sound mixed with a little psychedelia and flower-child melodicism (like One Tin Soldier or Teresa Kelly's Johnnie from the Billy Jack soundtrack, or Fleetwood Mac's own World Turning, Over My Head, The Chain, I Don't Want to Know, and That's All for Everyone).

It's the Fleetwood Mac image of the inner-sleeve photo of Rumours—the Fleetwood Mac of cutoffs, wine bottles, suede boots, beards, and greasy facial skin.

[cbBen]

Yes! It's shot through with Fleetwood Mac.

There's a seventies Fleetwood Mac sound (mountain folk music and Byrds harmonies) and there's an eighties Fleetwood Mac sound (androgynous harmonies and adult contemporary [AC] music), and Destiny Rules is one of the few examples I can think of after 1979 of the seventies Fleetwood Mac sound. It's why I love it so much. It's that roots country sound mixed with a little psychedelia and flower-child melodicism (like One Tin Soldier or Teresa Kelly's Johnnie from the Billy Jack soundtrack, or Fleetwood Mac's own World Turning, Over My Head, The Chain, I Don't Want to Know, and That's All for Everyone).

It's the Fleetwood Mac image of the inner-sleeve photo of Rumours—the Fleetwood Mac of cutoffs, wine bottles, suede boots, beards, and greasy facial skin.

Thank you both for addressing the topic of the thread. I'm curious to get people's thoughts.

What about the instrumental part of "Murrow"? Isn't that in the vein of the classic seventies FM sound?

[cbBen]

Listening now, I hear how "Destiny Rules" has much less in the way of bells and whistles than, say, "Running Through The Garden."

[gldstwmn]

Thank you both for addressing the topic of the thread. I'm curious to get people's thoughts.

What about the instrumental part of "Murrow"? Isn't that in the vein of the classic seventies FM sound?

Murrow doesn't sound like classic Mac to me at all. It sounds more like a Lindsey solo track.

[elle]

Thank you both for addressing the topic of the thread. I'm curious to get people's thoughts.

What about the instrumental part of "Murrow"? Isn't that in the vein of the classic seventies FM sound?

yep. ISA instrumental part all over again. so much so that when they were recording the Soundstage, Lindsey ended up laughing at himself for going into ISA solo instead of the Murrow solo.

Murrow is a great song, many interesting elements there. it was also that new direction while still firmly FM that Lindsey was trying to take FM in, to get them to still be musically relevant. something that majority of band members kept resisting since Tusk.

[ricohv]

Yes! It's shot through with Fleetwood Mac.

There's a seventies Fleetwood Mac sound (mountain folk music and Byrds harmonies) and there's an eighties Fleetwood Mac sound (androgynous harmonies and adult contemporary [AC] music), and Destiny Rules is one of the few examples I can think of after 1979 of the seventies Fleetwood Mac sound. It's why I love it so much. It's that roots country sound mixed with a little psychedelia and flower-child melodicism (like One Tin Soldier or Teresa Kelly's Johnnie from the Billy Jack soundtrack, or Fleetwood Mac's own World Turning, Over My Head, The Chain, I Don't Want to Know, and That's All for Everyone).

It's the Fleetwood Mac image of the inner-sleeve photo of Rumours—the Fleetwood Mac of cutoffs, wine bottles, suede boots, beards, and greasy facial skin.
Those are some SERIOUSLY imaginative & accurate descriptions David!

[guillamene]

Some very interesting and perceptive comments in this thread about SYW. I was always struck by the fact that - apart from being named as an 'additional performer'- Christine is virtually ignored on this release. I expected-perhaps naively- the album to be dedicated to her, but no. Same at the concerts on the SYW tour: not a mention, almost as if she had never existed or contributed to the band. This was borne out later by LB's comments that, basically, she had left, she was gone for good and that was that, her decision etc. etc. This subsequently made me think that, deep down, it must have been a somewhat bitter pill for him to swallow when she returned to the fold in 2014.
Indeed , this has been a feature of this band: once someone has died/left, that's it - gone and -apparently-forgotten .Sad!
That said, I love the album and the sound and production (apart from the fact that it could shed two or three songs)

[cbBen]

After revisiting the song "Destiny Rules," I started to think maybe Lindsey should have been less dismissive of Lord-Alge, who I note mixed Out Of The Cradle (odd how that–and whether Lindsey was unhappy with his work–never came up in Destiny Rules). Lindsey's complaint in Destiny Rules that Lord-Alge works fast never seemed convincing to me, because what counts is how good a job he does. Stevie acquiesced to not using him, but even her reasoning made little sense, other than social harmony.

Then I found this interview with Lord-Alge. His persona couldn't be more different from Lindsey's, but he seems to know what he's doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYElkX6nLvs

[Nicks Fan]

I wrote down what I know about his reputation. I do believe that he mellowed out to an extend and that he is far happier than he was back then. He was never any good in the publicitiy department and I personally feel that he came off jealous and mean spirited, especially with Stevies HoF introduction pending. That said, the BS that some fans fabricated about him and especially about his wife who has never been anything but supporting and loving is actually disgusting and has me up in arms for decades by now.

I agree. The stuff that some people come out with about Lindsey and or his wife and kids is mind boggling. I saw a comment on social media where someone was up in arms over this theory that Karen instigated some drama or something at Music Cares just to get Lindsey upset. However then they tried to say that the band lied to hide the real truth about what he did in order to protect his image and income etc. Social media is really bad for the attacks on him and his family. I feel bad for his wife as when she did post things on her twitter or Instagram people really attacked with such vile comments.

In my opinion there are some people who have never liked Lindsey for whatever reason and will never admit that he is a major part of why they got so big. SN is the draw for sure but if the music wasn't any good I don't think they would have had the success they did. If they hadn't made Tusk but instead copied the Rumors formula who knows where they would be. If they didn't like him or respect him then they won't do it now. I have accepted that some people will defend Mick and or SN to the death as well as the endless GH tours. I don't get it but that's on them. How many times do you need to hear Gypsy, Rhiannon, Dreams, Landslide, GDW, GYOW,The Chain etc?

[button-lip]

In my opinion there are some people who have never liked Lindsey for whatever reason and will never admit that he is a major part of why they got so big. SN is the draw for sure but if the music wasn't any good I don't think they would have had the success they did. If they hadn't made Tusk but instead copied the Rumors formula who knows where they would be. If they didn't like him or respect him then they won't do it now. I have accepted that some people will defend Mick and or SN to the death as well as the endless GH tours. I don't get it but that's on them. How many times do you need to hear Gypsy, Rhiannon, Dreams, Landslide, GDW, GYOW,The Chain etc?

SN is what it is today thanks to FM, and FM is what it is today thanks to Lindsey. Without Lindsey, Stevie would have never been a part of FM, and that's what her and her fans despise the most. That's the thorn on their side.

But they made a choice to go on without him. Because she's the boss. :wavey::wavey:

[cbBen]

Without Stevie, Lindsey would never have been part of Fleetwood Mac either:

1. No record contract for Lindsey without Stevie (certainly not in time for the FM opening).
2. No "Frozen Love" solo to attract Mick's interest without Stevie.
3. Lindsey likely turns down the offer to join without Stevie's advice to take it.

[elle]

Without Stevie, Lindsey would never have been part of Fleetwood Mac either:

1. No record contract for Lindsey without Stevie (certainly not in time for the FM opening).
2. No "Frozen Love" solo to attract Mick's interest without Stevie.
3. Lindsey likely turns down the offer to join without Stevie's advice to take it.

nobody denies that though. Lindsey doesn't, and FM / LB fans do not either. Lindsey said he would probably never be writing music if Stevie didn't want him to. he was perfectly happy to just play music. he would have probably end up being a guitarist and singer in some other band if he didn't join FM. maybe he wouldn't have been as successful, or maybe he'd be way more recognized as a guitarist (and maybe producer?), and had a happier life if he did that. :shrug:

[mitzo]

nobody denies that though. Lindsey doesn't, and FM / LB fans do not either. Lindsey said he would probably never be writing music if Stevie didn't want him to. he was perfectly happy to just play music. he would have probably end up being a guitarist and singer in some other band if he didn't join FM. maybe he wouldn't have been as successful, or maybe he'd be way more recognized as a guitarist (and maybe producer?), and had a happier life if he did that. :shrug:

And he wouldn't have written the songs he did. :laugh::laugh:

[elle]

nobody denies that though. Lindsey doesn't, and FM / LB fans do not either. Lindsey said he would probably never be writing music if Stevie didn't want him to. he was perfectly happy to just play music.

And he wouldn't have written the songs he did.

right.

possibly wouldn't have written any songs, in fact. :shrug:

[vivfox]

Without Lindsey, Stevie would have never been a part of FM, and that's what her and her fans despise the most. That's the thorn on their side.


This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.:lol:

[button-lip]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.:lol:

That doesn’t make it any less true.

[button-lip]

Without Stevie, Lindsey would never have been part of Fleetwood Mac either:

1. No record contract for Lindsey without Stevie (certainly not in time for the FM opening).
2. No "Frozen Love" solo to attract Mick's interest without Stevie.
3. Lindsey likely turns down the offer to join without Stevie's advice to take it.

And he probably would have been part of another band or pursue his career as a solo guitarist. And his guitar style would have caught Mick’s attention whether he was singing “Frozen Love” with Stevie or with, let’s say, Linda Ronstadt. That “package deal” thing will follow him until his last days. He already expressed his regret about it.

Stevie won the lottery with FM. :nod:

[cbBen]

He already expressed his regret about it.
Do you have a source for this? FM would have gone relatively nowhere without Stevie.

Stevie won the lottery with FM. :nod:
They both did.

[SteveMacD]

Do you have a source for this? FM would have gone relatively nowhere without Stevie.


They both did.
The primary need Mick had was for Fleetwood Mac to keep going, which started with a guitarist. Lindsey’s playing is what initially got Mick’s attention. However, all Mick ever talks about was Lindsey’s playing as the reason he wanted him. I’m not sure Mick necessarily associated anything other than guitar player with Lindsey and may have been prepared to also look for a singer-songwriter.

Once the equation of Buckingham Nicks was explained, Mick was fine with it, pending Christine’s approval of having another woman in the band.

[button-lip]

Do you have a source for this? FM would have gone relatively nowhere without Stevie.


Source? About what? He said: "and look where that got me" in one of the FM concerts in 2013 before Christine came back, in one of her looooong Gypsy speeches, and that was his answer when she mentioned the famous "package deal".


They both did.

Stevie wanted to win the lottery. That's all she could talk about once they joined the group.

Lindsey wanted to make his music. Big difference.

[mitzo]

Source? About what? He said: "and look where that got me" in one of the FM concerts in 2013 before Christine came back, in one of her looooong Gypsy speeches, and that was his answer when she mentioned the famous "package deal".




Stevie wanted to win the lottery. That's all she could talk about once they joined the group.

Lindsey wanted to make his music. Big difference.

I ho estly cannot believe how much you adore him and continuously assert he is perfection personified. At least three times a day, on this forum!

[button-lip]

I ho estly cannot believe how much you adore him and continuously assert he is perfection personified. At least three times a day, on this forum!

At least I’m not part of any cult...

My ignore list is getting bigger and bigger. :wavey:

[MikeInNV]

He said: "and look where that got me" in one of the FM concerts in 2013 before Christine came back, in one of her looooong Gypsy speeches, and that was his answer when she mentioned the famous "package deal"

I don't know which shows you were at, but when I heard him say that, it was clearly in jest.

[mitzo]

At least I’m not part of any cult...

My ignore list is getting bigger and bigger. :wavey:

I will let this speak for itself LOL :distress:

[ViscountViktor]

"Red Sun" would be a killer FM song. On Buck Vie-the only song I missed Stevie on is "Red Sun"

Stevie would have fitted most songs on BuckVie - especially Carnival Begin and Red Sun, in the mould of Think About Me.

Such a shame it never happened.

[ViscountViktor]

I don't like the engineering on most of the album. The treble is bolstered over the bottom end, the sonics are so overcompressed that your ears ring, the layering is too busy (things aren't delineated the way they were on Rumours and Mirage), the drums are weak (which might be a result of emptying out the bottom end), the panning is amateurish, and the cheesy phaser effects don't need to be there at all. Sounds like the entire damn thing was mixed by guys wearing headphones. (For Rumours, they mixed with top-quality speakers.) Say You Will doesn't lie across the entire stereo spectrum cleanly like the old Dashut and Caillat work. When you listen to it, you have to EQ it track by track to your liking—and that's only a partial fix. (The album totally sucks in the tightly confined cabin of your car, as you may have noticed.)

Too much clutter on each track, too, probably a result of high-processing computers with all their bits and bytes. Every hole is filled in with data.

Is that the Rumours with the drum sounds of cardboard and vocals that sound like they were recorded miles away from the microphone?