Is this fair?

[secret love]

Apparently whingeing about Lindsey (oh the injustice that someone who didn't want to work/tour full time [no solo in between] got fired!) and bitching about Mick ("What an a$$hole!") is perfectly fine in the Rumours forum. However, actually talking about the current line up of Fleetwood Mac which contains 4/5 Rumours members just like the Say You Will line up - just that instead of back up guitarists and singers they have Mike and Neil - is verboten. Instead these discussions have been relegated to the Post-Rumours forum.

Is this fair?

[sodascouts]

You'll be happy to know the moderators agree with you!

I happen to disagree. I believe that the addition of two members who were not a part of the Rumours line-up means that the band no longer qualifies as the Rumours line-up.

I know you do not agree. That is fine.

However, I feel my logic is quite solid, and I will continue to follow my own reasoning in this regard when it comes to where I post my topics.

I do not see that as "unfair."

[KenshiMaster16]

I don't have a problem with it. I may still be p*ssed but I still wish them the best of luck and will be mildly curious to hear how they sound on everything. I still won't be going but I'll be curious. As to where the discussions take place, it makes since I guess since the majority of that line-up is still in tact.

[secret love]

You'll be happy to know the moderators agree with you!

I happen to disagree. I believe that the addition of two members who were not a part of the Rumours line-up means that the band no longer qualifies as the Rumours line-up.

I know you do not agree. That is fine.

However, I feel my logic is quite solid, and I will continue to follow my own reasoning in this regard when it comes to where I post my topics.

I do not see that as "unfair."
I think you missed my point on the fairness factor. To me, calling people you do not know personally (and therefore cannot speak with any accuracy) an "a$$hole" is not fair. If those threads are allowed to persist without argument, then so too should so-called "Post-Rumours" discussions that are free of any expletives disguised with $$ signs.

[SisterNightroad]

Unfortunately I don't have much time to post now so I'll just respond quoting my previous answers to this question:

As I've already said in another thread on the Rumours forum, discussions about the new line-up in our opinion (meaning we Moderators) should stay in the Rumours forum. If anyone feels more at ease here it's not a problem at all but I don't see why anyone should give up the right to post there.

obviously this isn't the Post Rumours band at all since neither Mike nor Neil have anything to do with Billy, Rick, Dave and Becca, so idealistically it would need a forum of its own, but realistically on an old site like this one it's impossible without overpowering anything.
You also have to think that any sub-forum of this site in reality was meant to talk in a retrospective manner about its subject (saving Chit Chat I guess), so even the Rumours forum is actually about the band from 1975 to 1987. By the time The Dance came noone expected a reunion so from that point onward the Rumours board has been used for every subsequent output for convenience.

Let me just add that the only opinions that matter about the issue are the ones of the admin and of the moderators, so anyone else saying that you can't discuss the new line-up here is either lying or misinformed.

[secret love]

Unfortunately I don't have much time to post now so I'll just respond quoting my previous answers to this question:





Let me just add that the only opinions that matter about the issue are the ones of the admin and of the moderators, so anyone else saying that you can't discuss the new line-up here is either lying or misinformed.

Well that just about settles it.

[FuzzyPlum]

Well that just about settles it.

It settles it. But its still wrong.
Sister, sorry... I think you're wrong.
Post-Rumours should be all incarnations post-Rumours-era only members. Rick and Billy are different entities to Bekka Billy and Dave.
Just wrong :shrug:

Edit: and floored logic

[FuzzyPlum]

I think you missed my point on the fairness factor. To me, calling people you do not know personally (and therefore cannot speak with any accuracy) an "a$$hole" is not fair. If those threads are allowed to persist without argument, then so too should so-called "Post-Rumours" discussions that are free of any expletives disguised with $$ signs.

Apples and Oranges

[HomerMcvie]

Well that just about settles it.

High horse, party of one!:lol:

[secondhandchain]

FM is dead. Who cares where you post.

[iamnotafraid]

Let me just add that the only opinions that matter about the issue are the ones of the admin and of the moderators...


I knew that was true already. But seeing it written
out is something else. A shame really.

[Jondalar]

Without Lindsey, it’s no longer the Rumours lineup and the band is really not Fleetwood Mac. He was the creative source behind its success.

[secondhandchain]

Without Lindsey, it’s no longer the Rumours lineup and the band is really not Fleetwood Mac. He was the creative source behind its success.

I agree 100 percent. People think it was Stevie but the real genius behind FM was LB. His production took them places the made them stand out from other bands soundwise. Love him or hate him, he made them unique. When left to their own devices they slip into blandness and cheese.

[HomerMcvie]

I agree 100 percent. People think it was Stevie but the real genius behind FM was LB. His production took them places the made them stand out from other bands soundwise. Love him or hate him, he made them unique. When left to their own devices they slip into blandness and cheese.

Truest words ever written.

I've always thought he was a spoiled brat, BUT, his genius is what made them what they are. They'd be a f*cking footnote in history had Mick not asked him to join.

And Stevie = GENIUS??? NO ONE has ever uttered those ridiculous words. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[secret love]

Truest words ever written.

I've always thought he was a spoiled brat, BUT, his genius is what made them what they are. They'd be a f*cking footnote in history had Mick not asked him to join.

And Stevie = GENIUS??? NO ONE has ever uttered those ridiculous words. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Stevie, as you have told me, knows three chords, F, G and Am.
To fashion over forty songs out of three chords is to me, genius.
To arrange the three chords of Dreams from a repetitive and slow piano piece to a rocking #1 single is ****ing incredible.

[UnwindedDreams]

I've heard Lindsey interviews where he detailed his bolstering of Dreams. Stevie knows that he enlivens her songs, in my belief. Lindsey's instrumental "tension" and "emotion" in that song is what makes the renowned chorus memorable for me. SN did an awesome job with the writing but I believe LB gave it the legendary sound and vibe that rocketed it to success.
I love being able to share a thought in America!

[Jondalar]

I agree 100 percent. People think it was Stevie but the real genius behind FM was LB. His production took them places the made them stand out from other bands soundwise. Love him or hate him, he made them unique. When left to their own devices they slip into blandness and cheese.

Behind the Mask was horrid!!!! Only charted and sold some copies because of Tango.

[gldstwmn]

Apparently whingeing about Lindsey (oh the injustice that someone who didn't want to work/tour full time [no solo in between] got fired!) and bitching about Mick ("What an a$$hole!") is perfectly fine in the Rumours forum. However, actually talking about the current line up of Fleetwood Mac which contains 4/5 Rumours members just like the Say You Will line up - just that instead of back up guitarists and singers they have Mike and Neil - is verboten. Instead these discussions have been relegated to the Post-Rumours forum.

Is this fair?

No darling it's not. This whole forum thing has turned into a complete clusterf=ck. The mods have said the Rumours forum is where the current band lineup is to be discussed. Yet there are the Lindsey five (I like five, it's always been a very lucky number for me) who piss and moan like they're being tortured and acting like psychotic traffic cops yammering on about where this or that should go. I'd like to tell them where to go (it's a real long way to go). Anyway just a friendly word of advice. Trying to do anything about this situation here (I'm not talking about abs) is a bit like tilting at windmills (that's a Carlos Castaneda reference for those of you who can't keep up.):cool:

[gldstwmn]

You'll be happy to know the moderators agree with you!

I happen to disagree. I believe that the addition of two members who were not a part of the Rumours line-up means that the band no longer qualifies as the Rumours line-up.

I know you do not agree. That is fine.

However, I feel my logic is quite solid, and I will continue to follow my own reasoning in this regard when it comes to where I post my topics.

I do not see that as "unfair."

Technically it should have its own forum but we have been advised that ain't gonna happen. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

I don't have a problem with it. I may still be p*ssed but I still wish them the best of luck and will be mildly curious to hear how they sound on everything. I still won't be going but I'll be curious. As to where the discussions take place, it makes since I guess since the majority of that line-up is still in tact.

I find it hard to believe (and I'm not talking about you here) that people are going into anaphylactic shock or having seizures at the mere mention of some you know whos.

[gldstwmn]

FM is dead. Who cares where you post.

Then why in God's name are you wasting your time posting here? Maybe you should go take a sh!t on their Walk of Fame star and that will make you feel better. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

Without Lindsey, it’s no longer the Rumours lineup and the band is really not Fleetwood Mac. He was the creative source behind its success.

Using that logic it's not FM without Peter Green.

[gldstwmn]

I agree 100 percent. People think it was Stevie but the real genius behind FM was LB.

Even Stevie acknowledges Lindsey's driving force of Fleetwood Mac. No one thinks Stevie engineered the FM sound. No one.

[gldstwmn]

I've heard Lindsey interviews where he detailed his bolstering of Dreams. Stevie knows that he enlivens her songs, in my belief. Lindsey's instrumental "tension" and "emotion" in that song is what makes the renowned chorus memorable for me. SN did an awesome job with the writing but I believe LB gave it the legendary sound and vibe that rocketed it to success.
I love being able to share a thought in America!

Bolstering of Dreams? Mmmm... not so much. She wrote it on a Fender Rhodes piano in Sly Stones hideaway room in Sausalito and brought it upstairs to the band in the studio who promptly recorded it. Less was more with that song.

[sodascouts]

Trying to do anything about this situation here (I'm not talking about abs) is a bit like tilting at windmills (that's a Carlos Castaneda reference for those of you who can't keep up.):cool:

I think Cervantes would have a thing or two to say about that!

[sodascouts]

Technically it should have its own forum but we have been advised that ain't gonna happen. :shrug:

True. Oh well.

[BombaySapphire3]

Bolstering of Dreams? Mmmm... not so much. She wrote it on a Fender Rhodes piano in Sly Stones hideaway room in Sausalito and brought it upstairs to the band in the studio who promptly recorded it. Less was more with that song.

I think even nominal fans know the story of the writing of Dreams by now. Didn't Christine also say that the song was really boring as presented until Lindsey and the other instrumentalist did their magic:shrug:

[gldstwmn]

I think even nominal fans know the story of the writing of Dreams by now. Didn't Christine also say that the song was really boring as presented until Lindsey and the other instrumentalist did their magic:shrug:

She may well have but I don't recall. I just don't think he did that much with Dreams. There are plenty of other great examples with Gypsy immediately coming to mind.

[gldstwmn]

I think Cervantes would have a thing or two to say about that!

Oh my stars! I am getting my Don Quixote and Don Juan mixed up! Tequila! Peyote! Ay yi yi! The only one that can't keep up is me. :laugh:

[jwd]

I think even nominal fans know the story of the writing of Dreams by now. Didn't Christine also say that the song was really boring as presented until Lindsey and the other instrumentalist did their magic:shrug:

I remember something to that effect and Christine commenting "but she sang it beautifully". As if not to take all the credit from Stevie. And Stevie did write some really good lyrics to the song. But the band gave it its' full on embellished sound.

[UnwindedDreams]

She may well have but I don't recall. I just don't think he did that much with Dreams. There are plenty of other great examples with Gypsy immediately coming to mind.
Thank you for your post. May I ask, do you know if Lindsey bolstered/supported the musical development of "Dreams" or is it "Mmmm... not so much"?
Your reply to my first post in this thread read to me as a correction of my belief with what I read to have been your presentation of a fact - that being "Mmmm... not so much." I heard the Sly Stone story on the CV 07 Tour.

[Villavic]

I don't give a damn about what forum is the right. I'm still angry and blame on the whole band. They are more than old enough to get in ridiculous fights that did nothing but finish a great legacy in rock. This is it. Will there be a (Rumours lineup) reunion in 10 years? 5 years? I don't think so.

[sodascouts]

I don't give a damn about what forum is the right. I'm still angry and blame on the whole band. They are more than old enough to get in ridiculous fights that did nothing but finish a great legacy in rock. This is it. Will there be a (Rumours lineup) reunion in 10 years? 5 years? I don't think so.

My fantasy is that they end this tour, say "We've made a horrible mistake" - call Lindsey - he accepts and they do a "Rumours 5 Reunion" tour to great acclaim and profits in 2022, just in time for the 45th anniversary of Rumours.

[dreamsunwind]

She may well have but I don't recall. I just don't think he did that much with Dreams. There are plenty of other great examples with Gypsy immediately coming to mind.

No it's not. Dreams and Gypsy are actually probably the two best examples of what Lindsey would do to Stevie's simple demos. And they're the two that he usually specifically mentions when talking about that kind of thing. Dreams has a TON of little grooves and things in the music of it that really make the sound of the song what it is and those are nowhere on any of Stevie's demos of the song. Like you said she wrote the song fairly quickly on a piano and it had a great vocal and lyrics and not much else. We've all heard the demos.

There are songs that wouldn't have been good examples. Storms being the most obvious imo. Storms is quite simply produced, Lindsey didn't add much except for some beautiful guitar work.

[elle]

Unfortunately I don't have much time to post now so I'll just respond quoting my previous answers to this question:


Let me just add that the only opinions that matter about the issue are the ones of the admin and of the moderators, so anyone else saying that you can't discuss the new line-up here is either lying or misinformed.

majority rules? :lol:

[Angel75]

My fantasy is that they end this tour, say "We've made a horrible mistake" - call Lindsey - he accepts and they do a "Rumours 5 Reunion" tour to great acclaim and profits in 2022, just in time for the 45th anniversary of Rumours.

My fantasy also....but even at the very least a recorded show like the Dance that can be a momento for fans and rewatched. If their age and health are not in a way to make touring possible then this would be fine with me.

[jwd]

My fantasy also....but even at the very least a recorded show like the Dance that can be a momento for fans and rewatched. If their age and health are not in a way to make touring possible then this would be fine with me.


If Lindsey has any self respect, he would never return to the dinosaur that has held him back all these years. Let the carcass rot. Do YOUR thing Lindsey. Be creative on your own or with other artists that appreciate you. Tell the cash cow to **** themselves!

[HomerMcvie]

If Lindsey has any self respect, he would never return to the dinosaur that has held him back all these years. Let the carcass rot. Do YOUR thing Lindsey. Be creative on your own or with other artists that appreciate you. Tell the cash cow to **** themselves!

I agree completely. F*CK these IDIOTS for doing this to the band.

And I'd lose all respect for Lindsey if he ever went back to these whores. He doesn't need the money, so let them rot. He's the only one getting my support, from here on out.

If the theories are true, I hope that $tevie has her own personal bunker in Hell.

[jwd]

I agree completely. F*CK these IDIOTS for doing this to the band.

And I'd lose all respect for Lindsey if he ever went back to these whores. He doesn't need the money, so let them rot. He's the only one getting my support, from here on out.

If the theories are true, I hope that $tevie has her own personal bunker in Hell.


I really just don't like her anymore. What's that song of hers, "You May Be The One" where she says


https://youtu.be/GGegqrQ5n80


It's how I feel about her now, sadly.

[sodascouts]

My fantasy also....but even at the very least a recorded show like the Dance that can be a momento for fans and rewatched. If their age and health are not in a way to make touring possible then this would be fine with me.

That would be fine with me, too. Just something that has them together again. It can't end like this.

[secondhandchain]

Then why in God's name are you wasting your time posting here? Maybe you should go take a sh!t on their Walk of Fame star and that will make you feel better. :shrug:

I spend 10 minutes a day here, and I have EVERY right to piss and moan about what this band has done to it's legacy. It's a God damn shame and I'm not going to just close my mouth about it.

[SteveMacD]

Don’t act like Lindsey is above taking the big bag of money. He went along with a “duet album,” so he’ll be back if asked.

[button-lip]

Don’t act like Lindsey is above taking the big bag of money. He went along with a “duet album,” so he’ll be back if asked.

No one is saying he’s above the money. Many here are saying they HOPE he won’t do it. Of course he will be back if asked. My opinion: it won’t happen. I’m sure Stevie will also lose some of her fans’ respect if she asks Lindsey to come back.

Buckingham McVie was done for many reasons but I don’t think one of them was money. But I’m sure one of them was to prove they can do an album and a tour without her. Hence, he was fired.

[gldstwmn]

Thank you for your post. May I ask, do you know if Lindsey bolstered/supported the musical development of "Dreams" or is it "Mmmm... not so much"?
Your reply to my first post in this thread read to me as a correction of my belief with what I read to have been your presentation of a fact - that being "Mmmm... not so much." I heard the Sly Stone story on the CV 07 Tour.
No it's not a correction. I'm sorry if it came off like that. You can really hear the transformations in some of Stevie's Rumours songs when you listen to early takes. Gold Dust Woman for example started off one way and ended up quite another. Dreams didn't really undergo the same transformation. It was pretty much the same from where it started to where it ended up.

[gldstwmn]

I spend 10 minutes a day here, and I have EVERY right to piss and moan about what this band has done to it's legacy. It's a God damn shame and I'm not going to just close my mouth about it.

Well as long as you're enjoying yourself... :shrug:

[sands of time]

Apparently whingeing about Lindsey (oh the injustice that someone who didn't want to work/tour full time [no solo in between] got fired!) and bitching about Mick ("What an a$$hole!") is perfectly fine in the Rumours forum. However, actually talking about the current line up of Fleetwood Mac which contains 4/5 Rumours members just like the Say You Will line up - just that instead of back up guitarists and singers they have Mike and Neil - is verboten. Instead these discussions have been relegated to the Post-Rumours forum.

Is this fair?

Yes. Yes it is.

[StreetAngel86]

FM is dead. Who cares where you post.


PREACH :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[KenshiMaster16]

Like Phil Collins, it'd be hilarious if say in 5-10 years, Lindsey rejoins cause this era flops and they call it the We're Not Dead Yet, Either Tour lol

[HomerMcvie]

Like Phil Collins, it'd be hilarious if say in 5-10 years, Lindsey rejoins cause this era flops and they call it the We're Not Dead Yet, Either Tour lol

In 10 years, SOMEONE will be dead.:shocked:

[BombaySapphire3]

In 10 years, SOMEONE will be dead.:shocked:

More likely 2 or 3 ..but if we're still around I am sure ticket prices for a Nicks solo show in her ribbon and bow bedecked wheelchair may have dropped a bit.

[aleuzzi]

No it's not a correction. I'm sorry if it came off like that. You can really hear the transformations in some of Stevie's Rumours songs when you listen to early takes. Gold Dust Woman for example started off one way and ended up quite another. Dreams didn't really undergo the same transformation. It was pretty much the same from where it started to where it ended up.

The melody and chords from the demo to Dreams remain in tact. But that’s it. Clocking in at well over the four minute mark, the song would have been tedious if a creative arrangement had not bolstered it. Christine has spoken openly about how much Lindsey was able to extract from the same three chords. His hand on the production is so strong here that if he had done it in 2017 he’d have wanted co-composition credit, which, for the record, I think is wrong but still in line with the point many are making about his vision enabling even the barest of demos to be transformed into something fully realized and orchestrated.

A good contrast with this is “Edge of Seventeen,” a great, driving song in need of a more imaginative arrangement that will sustain its many repetitions and length. Lindsey could have done wonders with that.

[HomerMcvie]

More likely 2 or 3 ..but if we're still around I am sure ticket prices for a Nicks solo show in her ribbon and bow bedecked wheelchair may have dropped a bit.

Hopefully she'll still have her turkey waddle stapled back.

[jbrownsjr]

The melody and chords from the demo to Dreams remain in tact. But that’s it. Clocking in at well over the four minute mark, the song would have been tedious if a creative arrangement had not bolstered it. Christine has spoken openly about how much Lindsey was able to extract from the same three chords. His hand on the production is so strong here that if he had done it in 2017 he’d have wanted co-composition credit, which, for the record, I think is wrong but still in line with the point many are making about his vision enabling even the barest of demos to be transformed into something fully realized and orchestrated.

A good contrast with this is “Edge of Seventeen,” a great, driving song in need of a more imaginative arrangement that will sustain its many repetitions and length. Lindsey could have done wonders with that.

The beauty is in arranging her raw material, which can be quite boring. And then she sang it beautifully on the record. Live.. ehhh not so much..

[Netter75]

The beauty is in arranging her raw material, which can be quite boring. And then she sang it beautifully on the record. Live.. ehhh not so much..

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks this song is such a dud live, even without the factor of it being overplayed. Should've been retired after the Rumours or Tusk tour.

[secret love]

The melody and chords from the demo to Dreams remain in tact. But that’s it. Clocking in at well over the four minute mark, the song would have been tedious if a creative arrangement had not bolstered it. Christine has spoken openly about how much Lindsey was able to extract from the same three chords. His hand on the production is so strong here that if he had done it in 2017 he’d have wanted co-composition credit, which, for the record, I think is wrong but still in line with the point many are making about his vision enabling even the barest of demos to be transformed into something fully realized and orchestrated.

A good contrast with this is “Edge of Seventeen,” a great, driving song in need of a more imaginative arrangement that will sustain its many repetitions and length. Lindsey could have done wonders with that.
Waddy doesn't arrange?
There is no doubt that Lindsey turned Dreams from okay to great. Three chords: F, G, Am7. That was it. Played simply on my keyboard at home, it is a proper dud. On Rumours it is a gem. Started to lose its shine live around 1983. Now it's a piece of hard plastic crap. She was right to ditch it from the 24KG tour and I was disappointed after seeing her in Sacramento that she had brought Dreams back in when I saw her in Sydney. And had the hide to act like bringing it back was doing us a favour.
I feel some empathy for Stevie I must admit. I also write songs and I am the same as her, I write chords and basic melodies. I rely on my producers to arrange them. I am always very appreciative when they come up with better arrangements. I don't know that Stevie is.

[aleuzzi]

Waddy doesn't arrange?
There is no doubt that Lindsey turned Dreams from okay to great. Three chords: F, G, Am7. That was it. Played simply on my keyboard at home, it is a proper dud. On Rumours it is a gem. Started to lose its shine live around 1983. Now it's a piece of hard plastic crap. She was right to ditch it from the 24KG tour and I was disappointed after seeing her in Sacramento that she had brought Dreams back in when I saw her in Sydney. And had the hide to act like bringing it back was doing us a favour.
I feel some empathy for Stevie I must admit. I also write songs and I am the same as her, I write chords and basic melodies. I rely on my producers to arrange them. I am always very appreciative when they come up with better arrangements. I don't know that Stevie is.

Waddy wouldn't have likely arranged "edge"--Jimmy Iovine would have. Or, possibly, they would have worked on it together. But the end result is not terribly imaginative. It's quite a literal interpretation of a basic riff repeated again and again without much sonic variation underneath or over it to provide great contrast. For what it's worth, some of Christine's solo songs have similar problems. "Liar" is another great, hard, driving tune. But it, like
"Edge" has so many repetitions without much variation in the supporting instrumentation. Lindsey was great with songs like this.

Admittedly, sometimes his "vision" takes away something from the magic of the demo, but songs like Gypsy and Dreams--well, they wouldn't be anything memorable without him.

[Buster]

Truest words ever written.

I've always thought he was a spoiled brat, BUT, his genius is what made them what they are. They'd be a f*cking footnote in history had Mick not asked him to join.

And Stevie = GENIUS??? NO ONE has ever uttered those ridiculous words. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Right - Stevie gave us Dreams, GTW, Landslide, Rhiannon, SOTM, BD album just to name a few but it’s the man who is the genius. Speak for yourself.

[SteveMacD]

Right - Stevie gave us Dreams, GTW, Landslide, Rhiannon, SOTM, BD album just to name a few but it’s the man who is the genius. Speak for yourself.

Even Stevie acknowledges the role those guys played in her music. Their gender is inconsequential.

However, I think Lindsey gives himself a little too much credit at times. “Rhiannon” and “Crystal” come to mind. The Buckingham Nicks versions pale in comparison to what Mick, John, and Christine brought to those songs. Being a genius in the studio only works if you have the right people.

[HomerMcvie]

Right - Stevie gave us Dreams, GTW, Landslide, Rhiannon, SOTM, BD album just to name a few but it’s the man who is the genius. Speak for yourself.

You should just block me. PLEASE block me. You obviously have huge issues with me, so please just block me, because I'm sick to death of you ranting at me.

[David]

Being a genius in the studio only works if you have the right people.
Truer words have never been spoke.

But I have to cavil with some of the earlier opinions that "Dreams" would be nothing without Fleetwood Mac's recording (which I love). "Dreams" is an excellent lyric: tight, cynical, ironic, sly, but also a passionate little narrative. If I didn't know Stevie wrote it, I'd never in a hundred years think she wrote it. It's more like Elvis Costello, post Angry Young Man. (It has a lot of the same sly push of "Kid About It" or "King of Confidence." I don't think "Dreams" has been given due appreciation by fans as a lyric. Sometimes I wonder whether people really perceive all the subtext in the song, or the way that it scans so beautifully with little cocky statements embedded at the end of lines. It should be studied more closely. Mick's kick+snare and John's bass are deliberately recorded to simulate the steady heartbeat of regret and warning. It really is a beautiful track, overflowing with the craftsmanship and ideas that Fleetwood Mac was renowned for.

It's Stevie's best song, by far, and it's probably Fleetwood Mac's best lyric, or one of.

[DownOnRodeo]

"Dreams" is an excellent lyric.

"Truer words have never been spoke"!
She truly was inspired when this one spilled out of her. It's rich and tight, and jumps right into the action as if she had excised an introductory stanza. The final production is sublime but it's also sublime as a poem. I was thinking just recently how the way the phrases "of your loneliness"/"dreams of loneliness" just hang there jarringly is very effective.

(But of course, lest we forget the fallen: "Christine McVie described the song as having "just three chords and one note in the left hand" and "boring" when Nicks played a rough version on the piano. McVie changed her mind after Buckingham "fashioned three sections out of identical chords, making each section sound completely different. He created the impression that there's a thread running through the whole thing." (source: Wikipedia))

[button-lip]

Right - Stevie gave us Dreams, GTW, Landslide, Rhiannon, SOTM, BD album just to name a few but it’s the man who is the genius. Speak for yourself.

If other posters on this forum have to explain to you that she didn't do all the work on those songs by herself (the only notion makes me laugh!), then I don't know which band you're following.

[button-lip]

I don't think "Dreams" has been given due appreciation by fans as a lyric. .

It's Stevie's best song, by far, and it's probably Fleetwood Mac's best lyric, or one of.

Right..... :lol::lol:

[bombaysaffires]

Lindsey tightened up her songs and made them hits. Before she dared compare herself to Bob Dylan he got her to cut a lot of the repetitive bits in songs, where she'd use the same word (angel, dream, etc) way too many times. Laziness.

That said, that *is* the job of a producer, so when he would insist on making a big deal of how he would just "do for her" blah blah blah, it's like dude, that's what a producer DOES. If you don't want to do it for her, then let someone else produce the band or at least her songs.

[gldstwmn]

Lindsey tightened up her songs and made them hits. Before she dared compare herself to Bob Dylan he got her to cut a lot of the repetitive bits in songs, where she'd use the same word (angel, dream, etc) way too many times. Laziness.



And yet Stevie has actually worked with Dylan while Lindsey has merely covered him. As for laziness, the majority of success is found through showing up. :shrug:

[lovethemac1]

And yet Stevie has actually worked with Dylan while Lindsey has merely covered him. As for laziness, the majority of success is found through showing up. :shrug:

I'm willing to bet Lindsey accomplishes more in a day than Stevie ever has.

[dreamsunwind]

And yet Stevie has actually worked with Dylan while Lindsey has merely covered him. As for laziness, the majority of success is found through showing up. :shrug:

Ironic you mention that considering that when Stevie was off singing with Bob Dylan and Tom Petty for no specific reason, Lindsey was in the studio. Working on an album for the band that Stevie was supposed to be part of too. An album that Stevie is barely on because (among other reasons) instead of spending much time recording with HER band she was doing things like going off to sing with other people. An album that ended up being very successful.

[sasja]

And yet Stevie has actually worked with Dylan while Lindsey has merely covered him. As for laziness, the majority of success is found through showing up. :shrug:

https://startsat60.com/entertainment/stevie-nicks-reveals-why-she-was-almost-banned-from-australia-forever

As I remember it it wasn't so much "working with Bob Dylan" as forcing herself upon Tom Petty and Bob Dylan on that tour and inviting herself along, then finally they let her sing a few choruses on stage with them. She "Nathan'd" them, really, is all. If I may be so bold as to go there. :laugh:
Obsessive fan girl, not a colleague. IMHO.

Oh man those Traveling Wilburys days though!!!! They were the best!!!! Sad that we lost so many of them :(:(:(


Anyone who has ever watched Border Security knows how tough our government can be when it comes to visas and visitors in the country – something Nicks had to learn the hard way.

According to reports in The Daily Telegraph, the 69-year-old was nearly deported when visiting the land Down Under back in 1986.

She had entered the country on a tourist visa to hang out with Tom Petty and Bob Dylan while they were on tour.

At one of their gigs in Sydney, she had one of the best views in the house and watched on from the side of the stage.

To her shock, she was pulled in front of the crowd and ended up singing ‘Like a Rolling Stone’ and ‘Knocking On Heaven’s Door’.

It all sounds innocent enough, right?

Wrong.

After the Fleetwood Mac made another appearance on stage the following night, government officials believed she was in breach of her holiday visa – given that she was technically working.

While fans couldn’t get enough of Nicks on stage, government officials weren’t so happy.

“Tom’s wife couldn’t make the trip so I said I would go and keep those guys in line,” she explained to The Daily Telegraph.

“I got to have fun just being a fan and had one of the most amazing months of my life.

“I got to sing with them two nights and then I was told by the Australian government I would never be allowed back in the country, not with Fleetwood Mac, not by myself as a solo artist, not as a tourist if I did that again.”

[gldstwmn]

Ironic you mention that considering that when Stevie was off singing with Bob Dylan and Tom Petty for no specific reason, Lindsey was in the studio. Working on an album for the band that Stevie was supposed to be part of too. An album that Stevie is barely on because (among other reasons) instead of spending much time recording with HER band she was doing things like going off to sing with other people. An album that ended up being very successful.

And he quit before the tour. :shrug: The band asked him to come to rehearsal in Maui and he didn't show up. These are the choices that he made.

[gldstwmn]

https://startsat60.com/entertainment/stevie-nicks-reveals-why-she-was-almost-banned-from-australia-forever

As I remember it it wasn't so much "working with Bob Dylan" as forcing herself upon Tom Petty and Bob Dylan on that tour and inviting herself along, then finally they let her sing a few choruses on stage with them. She "Nathan'd" them, really, is all. If I may be so bold as to go there. :laugh:
Obsessive fan girl, not a colleague. IMHO.

Oh man those Traveling Wilburys days though!!!! They were the best!!!! Sad that we lost so many of them :(:(:(


Anyone who has ever watched Border Security knows how tough our government can be when it comes to visas and visitors in the country – something Nicks had to learn the hard way.

According to reports in The Daily Telegraph, the 69-year-old was nearly deported when visiting the land Down Under back in 1986.

She had entered the country on a tourist visa to hang out with Tom Petty and Bob Dylan while they were on tour.

At one of their gigs in Sydney, she had one of the best views in the house and watched on from the side of the stage.

To her shock, she was pulled in front of the crowd and ended up singing ‘Like a Rolling Stone’ and ‘Knocking On Heaven’s Door’.

It all sounds innocent enough, right?

Wrong.

After the Fleetwood Mac made another appearance on stage the following night, government officials believed she was in breach of her holiday visa – given that she was technically working.

While fans couldn’t get enough of Nicks on stage, government officials weren’t so happy.

“Tom’s wife couldn’t make the trip so I said I would go and keep those guys in line,” she explained to The Daily Telegraph.

“I got to have fun just being a fan and had one of the most amazing months of my life.

“I got to sing with them two nights and then I was told by the Australian government I would never be allowed back in the country, not with Fleetwood Mac, not by myself as a solo artist, not as a tourist if I did that again.”

He liked her enough to work with her again on the Street Angels sessions. :shrug: Bob Dylan isn't going to do anything he doesn't want to do including letting someone join him on stage.

[dreamsunwind]

And he quit before the tour. :shrug: The band asked him to come to rehearsal in Maui and he didn't show up. These are the choices that he made.

I'm aware of that. You missed my point. You brought up that Stevie actually "worked" with Bob Dylan (even though she barely did) while Lindsey "merely" covered him (as if that says something about her over him), and then talking about how success is showing up. Well Stevie never would've met Bob had she shown up to record with HER band. But she didn't and was quite a mess during that time, which was part of WHY Lindsey didn't want to tour. Because almost the entire band (save Christine) had been such a flaky mess during the recording. Even Mick admitted to how bad it had gotten and that he didn't blame Lindsey for wanting out.
And I wouldn't have gone to that rehearsal in Maui anyways. After all that happened and they've already gotten a "replacement" for you, what's the point.

[SteveMacD]

And I wouldn't have gone to that rehearsal in Maui anyways. After all that happened and they've already gotten a "replacement" for you, what's the point.

If it was worth fighting for, he should have gone. But, maybe too much went down for that. Who knows?

[sodascouts]

And I wouldn't have gone to that rehearsal in Maui anyways. After all that happened and they've already gotten a "replacement" for you, what's the point.

I think it's safe to say he would've shown up if he thought they were asking him back into the band, considering how badly he wanted that.

With the other two guys already there, we all know that's not what was going to go down in Maui.

That's a real long way to go to say goodbye.

[button-lip]

And I wouldn't have gone to that rehearsal in Maui anyways. After all that happened and they've already gotten a "replacement" for you, what's the point.

Seriously, what was the point of "inviting" him to Maui? To rehearse? Yeah, right! With his two (always two) replacements already there, the only reason I can think for this display of generosity is to tell him he was indeed fired.
The whole point was to embarrass him. That's how fu*king sick Stevie is.

[Storms123]

Seriously, what was the point of "inviting" him to Maui? To rehearse? Yeah, right! With his two (always two) replacements already there, the only reason I can think for this display of generosity is to tell him he was indeed fired.
The whole point was to embarrass him. That's how fu*king sick Stevie is.

You don't fly a guy over from Australia/NZ if he doesn't have the gig. FM did this so they could tell the press the offered him the opportunity to audition for the job he's had for 40+ years only to give it to two replacements. "Sorry Lindsey, Neil just has a better grasp of Go Your Own Way"

[sodascouts]

Seriously, what was the point of "inviting" him to Maui? To rehearse? Yeah, right! With his two (always two) replacements already there, the only reason I can think for this display of generosity is to tell him he was indeed fired.
The whole point was to embarrass him. That's how fu*king sick Stevie is.

I have a hard time understanding the point, too. Since Finn and Campbell were there, the possible reasons are:

1) They were asking him to literally compete with Finn and Campbell for his job in some kind of "American Idol" guitar-duel type scenario.... both humiliating and ridiculous, as they already know what Lindsey, Campbell, and Finn are capable of. However, I seriously doubt this was what was going to happen, because it would be degrading for all three men. Even if they had no respect for Lindsey, they would not want to put Finn and Campbell through that. I mean, it's patently absurd.

2) They were asking him to come down for a "talk" - after which he could enjoy watching them rehearse with his replacements. I guess I respect the fact that they wanted to tell him to his face that he was fired since apparently they didn't do so before, but I can understand why he wouldn't fly down there for that.

So, they shouldn't brag about inviting him to the rehearsal as if that's terribly magnanimous of them when they dumped him. It's like bragging about how nice you are for inviting your ex to your wedding, then calling him rude when he doesn't attend.

[button-lip]

2) They were asking him to come down for a "talk." I guess I respect the fact that they wanted to tell him to his face that he was fired since apparently they didn't do so before, but I can understand why he wouldn't fly down there for that.

So, they shouldn't brag about inviting him to the rehearsal as if that's terribly magnanimous of them when they dumped him. It's like bragging about how nice you are for inviting your ex to your wedding, then calling him rude when he doesn't attend.

I guess that's why he didn't go. Because he knew they wanted to make the firing official and of course he couldn't face that. Totally understandable.
He also probably didn't go because he knew his firing was a done deal, so what was the point of doing a long trip just to have another fight with Mick and Stevie?

They wanted to look him in the eye and tell him he was fired. What a bunch of losers! First they omitted the truth and they said he left the band but then once they truth is out they brag about their generosity. :(

[Storms123]

I guess that's why he didn't go. Because he knew they wanted to make the firing official and of course he couldn't face that. Totally understandable.
He also probably didn't go because he knew his firing was a done deal, so what was the point of doing a long trip just to have another fight with Mick and Stevie?

They wanted to look him in the eye and tell him he was fired. What a bunch of losers! First they omitted the truth and they said he left the band but then once they truth is out they brag about their generosity. :(

Who in their right mind would make the trip? Dignity in tact, stay on your home turf and let your "friends" fumble their way through the press for this debacle. I know I come across as team Lindsey in most of my posts. At the core, I am a fan of this band, but honestly, what i've seen/understood to have transpired here, I am sickened by this lot. All 5 of them whiffed this bad. This has Stevie and Mick written all over it, but I cannot absolve Chris and John from this debacle. I know folks are giving them passes here, but Why? Lindsey owns it too. They all suck ( can I say that here) You own and control your destiny and you all did this. Neil Finn and Mike Campbell aren't FM--The Rumours 5 did this to themselves, they alone can fix it.

[StevieandChris]

It’s all one big tantrum. All 5 had a part to play. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for LB, and as excited as I am to see Stevie and Christine in March, I will have little sympathy for them if it fails commercially.

[button-lip]

It’s all one big tantrum. All 5 had a part to play. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for LB, and as excited as I am to see Stevie and Christine in March, I will have little sympathy for them if it fails commercially.

I agree. It's one of many Stevie's tantrums. This time she went too far. Because I don't see her as the victim here. She's definitely the big winner.

[HomerMcvie]

Who in their right mind would make the trip? Dignity in tact, stay on your home turf and let your "friends" fumble their way through the press for this debacle. I know I come across as team Lindsey in most of my posts. At the core, I am a fan of this band, but honestly, what i've seen/understood to have transpired here, I am sickened by this lot. All 5 of them whiffed this bad. This has Stevie and Mick written all over it, but I cannot absolve Chris and John from this debacle. I know folks are giving them passes here, but Why? Lindsey owns it too. They all suck ( can I say that here) You own and control your destiny and you all did this. Neil Finn and Mike Campbell aren't FM--The Rumours 5 did this to themselves, they alone can fix it.
THIS!
They do all suck! But when they're this close to death, they should have honored the legacy first, above all else. You WANT to go out as LEGENDS? You don't sell out to K-Mart, you DUMB F*CKS!!!!! Which is exactly what they did.

I'm sure that Lindsey isn't completely innocent in this scenario, but they should have held out, to make the story have a happy ending.

Now, it's got the most f*cked up ending imaginable.

I hope Old Goat Breath is happy, the old *****.:mad:

[StevieandChris]

I agree. It's one of many Stevie's tantrums. This time she went too far. Because I don't see her as the victim here. She's definitely the big winner.

All 5 are part of the tantrum. Something happened in the meeting no one will talk about, and L played a role like others did. This would not have happened otherwise.

I think they all will see themselves as the victim when it suits them. All five.

[DownOnRodeo]

I have a hard time understanding the point, too. Since Finn and Campbell were there, the possible reasons are:

1) "American Idol" guitar-duel

2) they wanted to tell him to his face that he was fired

My take on this would be that it must have been an attempt at damage control; for example, to get everyone's stories straight and be on the same page in order to limit any fallout in terms of tour profitability and brand credibility. And since LB didn't end up drinking that particular can of Hawaiian kool aid, the result was that the remaining members gave very vague and conflicting--and, when pushed to elaborate, entirely fabricated--stories about what happened, since they were in the dark about what the LB side might or might not say about how it did actually all play out.

[button-lip]

All 5 are part of the tantrum. Something happened in the meeting no one will talk about, and L played a role like others did. This would not have happened otherwise.

I think they all will see themselves as the victim when it suits them. All five.

I don’t think anyone sees Stevie as the victim. Only she of course and those wacko fans who would drink her pee if she asks them to.

Many Stevie fans have turned against her while I don’t see any Lindsey fan doing the same. That’s got to tell you something.

[lovethemac1]

I don’t think anyone sees Stevie as the victim. Only she of course and those wacko fans who would drink her pee if she asks them to.

Many Stevie fans have turned against her while I don’t see any Lindsey fan doing the same. That’s got to tell you something.

This is so true, and you made me laugh out loud:laugh::laugh: Thank you!! :xoxo:

[StevieandChris]

I don’t think anyone sees Stevie as the victim. Only she of course and those wacko fans who would drink her pee if she asks them to.

Many Stevie fans have turned against her while I don’t see any Lindsey fan doing the same. That’s got to tell you something.

I see it online, but I have not seen any fans turn against Stevie in “real life.” The fans older than me that I know just see this as par for the course. Most think she was over dramatic as usual, and he must have been a jerk again and it caught up with him. Probably truth to all of that. Most of the fans want music and will see FM, and will just see Lindsey solo.

[elle]

i have no time to read through pages of different threads, but since when was Lindsey invited to Maui for their rehearsal with Campbell and Finn?????

last i've heard, he was NOT invited, but he heard about it happening and was considering going as a last effort to try to convince them they are making a huge mistake. they were supposedly all worried that he will be coming and were preparing their "defense" - but at some point he must have realized that 1) he was not invited and 2) that the effort would be futile, and decided not to go after all.

[mitzo]

I see it online, but I have not seen any fans turn against Stevie in “real life.” The fans older than me that I know just see this as par for the course. Most think she was over dramatic as usual, and he must have been a jerk again and it caught up with him. Probably truth to all of that. Most of the fans want music and will see FM, and will just see Lindsey solo.

And would add that I do not feel that Stevie or anyone else in the band is obligated to spend their final productive years locked in a toxic dungeon with someone they have serious problems with, just so some of us can pretend the band is still a viable creative force. I am constantly amazed at how many people here on the Ledge actually thought the Rumours 5 would record together again. Or that they should have stayed together because that is the way WE want it.

Move on.

[sue]

i have no time to read through pages of different threads, but since when was Lindsey invited to Maui for their rehearsal with Campbell and Finn?????

last i've heard, he was NOT invited, but he heard about it happening and was considering going as a last effort to try to convince them they are making a huge mistake. they were supposedly all worried that he will be coming and were preparing their "defense" - but at some point he must have realized that 1) he was not invited and 2) that the effort would be futile, and decided not to go after all.

I think people are talking at cross purposes....
Gldstwmn mentioned about Lindsey being invited to rehearse but I think he was
talking about 1986/7 and Lindsey then leaving the band
People then thought gldstwmn meant like Now....
I think......

[sodascouts]

I think people are talking at cross purposes....
Gldstwmn mentioned about Lindsey being invited to rehearse but I think he was
talking about 1986/7 and Lindsey then leaving the band
People then thought gldstwmn meant like Now....
I think......

Yes. I got confused and I led everyone else astray. I'm sorry. I feel very foolish!

[sodascouts]

And would add that I do not feel that Stevie or anyone else in the band is obligated to spend their final productive years locked in a toxic dungeon with someone they have serious problems with, just so some of us can pretend the band is still a viable creative force. I am constantly amazed at how many people here on the Ledge actually thought the Rumours 5 would record together again. Or that they should have stayed together because that is the way WE want it.

Move on.

Her happiness has come at the expense of hurting someone else.

Better to not do Fleetwood Mac at all if it's so toxic than to tear it away from another member in order to make it more enjoyable for herself, knowing how much it meant to him.

That's selfish and cruel.

We're supposed to commend her for that?

[jeets2000]

Her happiness has come at the expense of hurting someone else.

Better to not do Fleetwood Mac at all if it's so toxic than to tear it away from another member in order to make it more enjoyable for herself, knowing how much it meant to him.

That's selfish and cruel.

We're supposed to commend her for that?

Well said, Nancy.

This is what I'll never understand about the people who defend what the band did: If you have a problem with something in the band, figure out a way to resolve it, or leave. Like Lindsey did in 1987. Giving ultimatums and then standing idly by while someone else is shown the door is a coward's way out, and frankly it's embarrassing. In order for Stevie to be happy, she had to make someone else's life miserable, and that's the definition of selfish. It's unforgivable.

[sodascouts]

Well said, Nancy.

This is what I'll never understand about the people who defend what the band did: If you have a problem with something in the band, figure out a way to resolve it, or leave. Like Lindsey did in 1987. Giving ultimatums and then standing idly by while someone else is shown the door is a coward's way out, and frankly it's embarrassing. In order for Stevie to be happy, she had to make someone else's life miserable, and that's the definition of selfish. It's unforgivable.

Exactly. When Stevie laughs about how she can dance around her apartment, all I can think about is how each one of those steps is steeped in Lindsey's blood.

She paid for her pleasure with a pound of his flesh.

[mitzo]

Exactly. When Stevie laughs about how she can dance around her apartment, all I can think about is how each one of those steps is steeped in Lindsey's blood.

She paid for her pleasure with a pound of his flesh.


Three other band members were also involved. None of them stood by Lindsey. Maybe because he is the problem.

[StevieandChris]

Three other band members were also involved. None of them stood by Lindsey. Maybe because he is the problem.

Obviously, this is a losing argument here. The people who call Stevie fans delusional are often just as deluded about Lindsey and his actions because he is a “musical genius” who does no wrong. Many have hated Stevie for years, and relish at having something else to harp on. The cries about tarnishing the legacy are not authentic, because many would be rejoicing if Stevie was the one fired instead of Lindsey.

Again, I think Lindsey contributed to his own ouster by his past and current behavior, current possibly being whatever went down that we are not privy to.

Much like Stevie would have contributed to her ouster if they *had* decided to fire her. If this tour tanks, maybe she is next.

I love the band but do not feel sympathy for a single member.

[dreamsunwind]

Three other band members were also involved. None of them stood by Lindsey. Maybe because he is the problem.

Well if you believe Christine, then she didn't even know about it until after it was a done deal. And I really can't imagine John caring enough any particular way to make an effort to "stand by" anyone, except maybe Mick.

[mitzo]

Well if you believe Christine, then she didn't even know about it until after it was a done deal. And I really can't imagine John caring enough any particular way to make an effort to "stand by" anyone, except maybe Mick.
Pretty feeble and traitorous colleagues then, standing idly by while the genius of the group gets turfed without reason. I don't get it.

[dreamsunwind]

Pretty feeble and traitorous colleagues then, standing idly by while the genius of the group gets turfed without reason. I don't get it.

In the end however it went down I doubt that Christine was happy about him getting kicked out, especially considering how they'd just finished their own album/tour that she genuinely loved. And that's what a lot of "sources" said too, that she didn't feel too great about it. But what's she gonna do? Leave the band herself? She just rejoined. I think she could've maybe thrown some weight around but it would've been to no use in the end. I don't think they're traitorous, but bands really are a business in the grand scheme of things so people are going to look out for themselves. And I 100% believe John really doesn't care either way. Whether you kick out Lindsey or Stevie and even bring in Sheryl Crow, he's reached the stage where he just wants to play his bass then go home.

[jeets2000]

Pretty feeble and traitorous colleagues then, standing idly by while the genius of the group gets turfed without reason. I don't get it.

Well, if we're all playing along with this logic, then the band members were given the option to betray Lindsey or cross Stevie, and they chose not to deal with her wrath?

It's weird to me that the people who think this was a "band decision" are also ignoring the mounds of evidence pointing to the fact that this was some beef between Stevie and Lindsey. She had a problem with a member in the band, she had the commercial/political capital to make a move, and Mick complied.

If the high priestess had actually taken the high road, she would have exited instead of forcing that on someone else.

[sodascouts]

Three other band members were also involved. None of them stood by Lindsey. Maybe because he is the problem.

It's true that the other band members shouldn't get a pass. In the end, they chose Stevie over Lindsey.

Maybe it's because he's the problem.

Maybe it's because she's the meal ticket.

[button-lip]

I see it online, but I have not seen any fans turn against Stevie in “real life.” The fans older than me that I know just see this as par for the course. Most think she was over dramatic as usual, and he must have been a jerk again and it caught up with him. Probably truth to all of that. Most of the fans want music and will see FM, and will just see Lindsey solo.

I know fans "in real life" as you're saying that have turned against her.

She was more than overdramatic. She messed with other people's lives and carrees. That's more than just a tantrum.

Many fans won't see this FM, as tickes sales are showing. And even if they did, Mick and Stevie's bank accounts won't be as full as usual after this tour.

[button-lip]

And would add that I do not feel that Stevie or anyone else in the band is obligated to spend their final productive years locked in a toxic dungeon with someone they have serious problems with, just so some of us can pretend the band is still a viable creative force. I am constantly amazed at how many people here on the Ledge actually thought the Rumours 5 would record together again. Or that they should have stayed together because that is the way WE want it.

Move on.

Exactly. No one is obligated. That's why if you're not comfortable in a BAND with 4 other people you should go away, instead of getting someone you hate fired. But of course that's what NORMAL people do.

When you're a psycho....

[button-lip]

Three other band members were also involved. None of them stood by Lindsey. Maybe because he is the problem.

No, not all of them were involved in the decision. Majority rules, remember?

Your friend Mick said it so it has to be true! Only him and sweet OGB.

[button-lip]

Obviously, this is a losing argument here. The people who call Stevie fans delusional are often just as deluded about Lindsey and his actions because he is a “musical genius” who does no wrong. Many have hated Stevie for years, and relish at having something else to harp on. The cries about tarnishing the legacy are not authentic, because many would be rejoicing if Stevie was the one fired instead of Lindsey.

Again, I think Lindsey contributed to his own ouster by his past and current behavior, current possibly being whatever went down that we are not privy to.

Much like Stevie would have contributed to her ouster if they *had* decided to fire her. If this tour tanks, maybe she is next.

I love the band but do not feel sympathy for a single member.

You're calling Lindsey's fans delusional and in the same post you talk about Stevie being fired? :lol::lol:

Yeah, we're delusional. :lol::lol:

Too bad Stevie was never a "musical genius" to cover for her actions during these past 40 years...

[StevieandChris]

You're calling Lindsey's fans delusional and in the same post you talk about Stevie being fired? :lol::lol:

Yeah, we're delusional. :lol::lol:



Notice I did not say all. I said the ones who I call Stevie fans delusional. If a fan lays the blame solely on Stevie, and does not accept that Lindsey played a part in this, by his past and current actions, then yes, that fan is delusional.


Too bad Stevie was never a "musical genius" to cover for her actions during these past 40 years...


Those shawls and tambourines come in handy.

[lovethemac1]

[QUOTE=StevieandChris;1232251]Obviously, this is a losing argument here. The people who call Stevie fans delusional are often just as deluded about Lindsey and his actions because he is a “musical genius” who does no wrong. Many have hated Stevie for years, and relish at having something else to harp on. The cries about tarnishing the legacy are not authentic, because many would be rejoicing if Stevie was the one fired instead of Lindsey.

Again, I think Lindsey contributed to his own ouster by his past and current behavior, current possibly being whatever went down that we are not privy to.

Much like Stevie would have contributed to her ouster if they *had* decided to fire her. If this tour tanks, maybe she is next.

I love the band but do not feel sympathy for a single member.[/QUOTE


You are dead wrong in my case, and probably others.

Fleetwood Mac super fan first. Then I was a Stevie super fan, a very close second. And then Mick. No more, not even remotely. I am disgusted with their behavior.

[dreamsunwind]

Notice I did not say all. I said the ones who I call Stevie fans delusional. If a fan lays the blame solely on Stevie, and does not accept that Lindsey played a part in this, by his past and current actions, then yes, that fan is delusional.


You keep saying this but I never understand what you mean by it. The 70s and 80s and 90s and even 2000s are over and the band isn't lingering in them. If you actually think someone woke up and said Lindsey doesn't deserve to be in the band anymore because he was a pain in the butt during Tusk or whenever else then I really don't know what to tell you. The entire band would've all fired each other decades ago if that's the way things worked and I guarantee it. And as for "current actions", you don't know what happened. None of us do. What we do know is that Lindsey had some solo touring thing he wanted and it's not true that he asked for a delay. We also know Lindsey wanted to make a final FM album and Stevie didn't so he released with Christine instead. Maybe that rumor about Stevie giving an ultimatum because she didn't want to tour with Lindsey anymore is true. Maybe she did just want Mike Campbell in the band and it all went downhill from there. Maybe he did yell at Karen. All we can do is speculate about those details but you can't say you know that this is what happened.

[HomerMcvie]

Too bad Stevie was never a "musical genius" to cover for her actions during these past 40 years...

The words $tevie Nick$ and genius have NEVER been used in the same sentence!!!!


Well, except when they were talking about her and Lindsey.

[StevieandChris]

You keep saying this but I never understand what you mean by it. The 70s and 80s and 90s and even 2000s are over and the band isn't lingering in them. If you actually think someone woke up and said Lindsey doesn't deserve to be in the band anymore because he was a pain in the butt during Tusk or whenever else then I really don't know what to tell you. The entire band would've all fired each other decades ago if that's the way things worked and I guarantee it. And as for "current actions", you don't know what happened. None of us do. What we do know is that Lindsey had some solo touring thing he wanted and it's not true that he asked for a delay. We also know Lindsey wanted to make a final FM album and Stevie didn't so he released with Christine instead. Maybe that rumor about Stevie giving an ultimatum because she didn't want to tour with Lindsey anymore is true. Maybe she did just want Mike Campbell in the band and it all went downhill from there. Maybe he did yell at Karen. All we can do is speculate about those details but you can't say you know that this is what happened.

How is it hard to figure out what I mean? He was an ass in the studio in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s, so why would it be any different in the 2010s? It did not stop at Tusk. He was an ass for 50 years and it caught up with him. All you have to do is watch and listen to his interviews and you can see his jerkishness and overinflated ego (which does not mean Stevie or Mick do not have overinflated egos and bitchiness and pettiness too: they do and the backlash shows it is catching up with them too). I thought his comments about Christine’s songs leading up to BM were insufferable.

My point is that Lindsey was not completely blameless in getting fired. He was just unlucky that he was booted first.

[dreamsunwind]

How is it hard to figure out what I mean? He was an ass in the studio in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s, so why would it be any different in the 2010s? It did not stop at Tusk. He was an ass for 50 years and it caught up with him. All you have to do is watch and listen to his interviews and you can see his jerkishness and overinflated ego (which does not mean Stevie or Mick do not have overinflated egos and bitchiness and pettiness too: they do and the backlash shows it is catching up with them too). I thought his comments about Christine’s songs leading up to BM were insufferable.

The fact that this is the reasoning tells me enough. I actually thought you'd have a better explanation.

[StevieandChris]

The fact that this is the reasoning tells me enough. I actually thought you'd have a better explanation.

There is no explanation that will ever suit you. In your eyes, and a certain other group of fan’s eyes, Stevie is guilty no matter what. Evil Incarnate. If Lindsey’s firing was not the focus, there would be another thing to harp about.

[jeets2000]

There is no explanation that will ever suit you. In your eyes, and a certain other group of fan’s eyes, Stevie is guilty no matter what. Evil Incarnate. If Lindsey’s firing was not the focus, there would be another thing to harp about.

I mean, this is ridiculous hyperbole.

Sorry that your argument isn't compelling, but prolonged periods of "jerkishness" hardly seems grounds for the firing of a band member. What I believe dreamsunwind was saying is that much of what you're citing was water under the bridge for these guys... decades ago.

[dreamsunwind]

There is no explanation that will ever suit you. In your eyes, and a certain other group of fan’s eyes, Stevie is guilty no matter what. Evil Incarnate. If Lindsey’s firing was not the focus, there would be another thing to harp about.

Please do not talk as if you know a single thing about what I think. If you actually did you'd know that I've never once said anything remotely along the lines of suggesting that Stevie is "evil incarnate". I've always loved Stevie, she's what really got me into FM and I'll always love her music, but the way she's been lately about the band and her career in general (refusing to record, not even putting out new solo music, just touring, passive aggressive comments etc etc) has really disappointed me, and this is way before any of this drama got started. To group anyone who critiques what's gone on here and seriously questions the intentions behind the band in that category is ridiculous. I've never thought Lindsey was some angel in this situation. But you don't have to think he was angel to think he didn't deserve this and that what's happened is wrong and shouldn't have happened and that it reflects badly on the band. And to say that he "deserved" it because he was such a big old ass 24/7 is just as naive, problematic and oversimplifying as to say Stevie that is "evil incarnate".

[dreamsunwind]

I mean, this is ridiculous hyperbole.

Sorry that your argument isn't compelling, but prolonged periods of "jerkishness" hardly seems grounds for the firing of a band member. What I believe dreamsunwind was saying is that much of what you're citing was water under the bridge for these guys... decades ago.

Yup!
And the fact that they haven't even been in the studio in 15 years. Unless you count BuckVie which by all accounts went smoothly. And I'd never deny that he exhibited a lot of jerky behavior back in the day but to say "he was an ass in the studio in the 70s and 80s and 90s and 2000s" is an exaggeration/oversimplification that also overlooks a lot of other things. Such as during Tango when he was basically the only band member aside from Christine that was actually even trying to make an album. Mick and Stevie don't even remember much about the making of that album since they were stoned/high/not even there. Or that no one really had any complaints about Mirage. Or that they didn't even record a studio album during the 90s. Or that we know what the issues about SYW were etc etc.

[StevieandChris]

I mean, this is ridiculous hyperbole.

Sorry that your argument isn't compelling, but prolonged periods of "jerkishness" hardly seems grounds for the firing of a band member. What I believe dreamsunwind was saying is that much of what you're citing was water under the bridge for these guys... decades ago.

It’s your prerogative to find your theories more compelling than mine.

Obviously it isn’t water under the bridge. Lindsey is out. For now.

[StevieandChris]

Please do not talk as if you know a single thing about what I think. If you actually did you'd know that I've never once said anything remotely along the lines of suggesting that Stevie is "evil incarnate". I've always loved Stevie, she's what really got me into FM and I'll always love her music, but the way she's been lately about the band and her career in general (refusing to record, not even putting out new solo music, just touring, passive aggressive comments etc etc) has really disappointed me, and this is way before any of this drama got started. To group anyone who critiques what's gone on here and seriously questions the intentions behind the band in that category is ridiculous. I've never thought Lindsey was some angel in this situation. But you don't have to think he was angel to think he didn't deserve this and that what's happened is wrong and shouldn't have happened and that it reflects badly on the band. And to say that he "deserved" it because he was such a big old ass 24/7 is just as naive, problematic and oversimplifying as to say Stevie that is "evil incarnate".

Obviously we have to agree to disagree. I stand by what I post, you stand by what you post.

[TheWildHeart67]

Nobody will win this debate.
It's all purely speculation, and assumptions.
And fans pointing fingers at each camp.
Childish, really.
We all love this band, yet so many fans on this board seem to take sides, ferociously against each other. The drama reminds me of an old episode of 'Melrose Place." Amanda VS Alison. LoL.

[DownOnRodeo]

I think people are talking at cross purposes....
Gldstwmn mentioned about Lindsey being invited to rehearse but I think he was
talking about 1986/7 and Lindsey then leaving the band
People then thought gldstwmn meant like Now....
I think......

Although it half rang true, I wasn't entirely sure either, so I couched my theorising in hypothetical terms ('my theory would be'). Apologies for contributing to our little 'fake news' diversion there :sorry:

[Nathan]

Nobody will win this debate.
It's all purely speculation, and assumptions.
And fans pointing fingers at each camp.
Childish, really.
We all love this band, yet so many fans on this board seem to take sides, ferociously against each other. The drama reminds me of an old episode of 'Melrose Place." Amanda VS Alison. LoL.

Nailed it! Amanda vs. Allison. Lol I almost forgot.

[button-lip]

Those shawls and tambourines come in handy.

Not anymore, according to ticket sales. :wavey:

And I'm SO glad all of you Stevie's fans are seeing it now! :nod:

[button-lip]

There is no explanation that will ever suit you. In your eyes, and a certain other group of fan’s eyes, Stevie is guilty no matter what. Evil Incarnate. If Lindsey’s firing was not the focus, there would be another thing to harp about.

Awwww, poor Stevie! I think that this certain group grew a lot these past couple of months, thanks to her behavior.

Truth is many of those fans didn't have a problem with her until she decided to show Lindsey the door. So she's not exactly Sister Stevie.

[StevieandChris]

Awwww, poor Stevie! I think that this certain group grew a lot these past couple of months, thanks to her behavior.

Truth is many of those fans didn't have a problem with her until she decided to show Lindsey the door. So she's not exactly Sister Stevie.

Like I said, I don’t have sympathy if she feels uncomfortable now. Her decisions have consequences, just like Lindsey’s.

[StevieandChris]

Not anymore, according to ticket sales. :wavey:

And I'm SO glad all of you Stevie's fans are seeing it now! :nod:

I have always seen it. It’s just no worse than Lindsey’s behavior. He just got the boot first. I am sure he would have loved to fire her in the 2000s if he was the one who had her power/popularity.

[button-lip]

Like I said, I don’t have sympathy if she feels uncomfortable now. Her decisions have consequences, just like Lindsey’s.

And that’s why you’re gonna see her in March? Because you don’t care about her?

[SteveMacD]

And that’s why you’re gonna see her in March? Because you don’t care about her?

What about those of who couldn’t care less about her?

I’m a Fleetwood Mac fan. I would rather have seen Stevie go. I would rather have had Buckingham Fleetwood McVie after 2004 than Lindsey solo, and Fleetwood Mac when Christine came back. Then again, I would have been happy with the “Love Shines” version of the band.

I don’t care that they are lying about what happened. Knowing just a little about their history, the truth might paint all of them in a bad light. And, I’ve also learned to never believe what they initially say.

Christine, Mick, and John are together again. All I need.

[button-lip]

What about those of who couldn’t care less about her?

I’m a Fleetwood Mac fan. I would rather have seen Stevie go. I would rather have had Buckingham Fleetwood McVie after 2004 than Lindsey solo, and Fleetwood Mac when Christine came back. Then again, I would have been happy with the “Love Shines” version of the band.

I don’t care that they are lying about what happened. Knowing just a little about their history, the truth might paint all of them in a bad light. And, I’ve also learned to never believe what they initially say.

Christine, Mick, and John are together again. All I need.

Whatever suits you. Because you don't care. Because you don't have Stevie's name on your username. So of course I believe you don't care.

[StevieandChris]

And that’s why you’re gonna see her in March? Because you don’t care about her?

I like her music and I like Christine’s music. The two of them are why I am a Fleetwood Mac fan.

I did not say I didn’t care about her. I said I don’t feel very much sympathy because when you make a decision like this there are bound to be repercussions. I like her music and she is my favorite singer but I am not obsessed with her. She is a human, fascinating, aggravating and flawed but she is not a Goddess. I don’t “worship” any of these people.

[SteveMacD]

Whatever suits you. Because you don't care. Because you don't have Stevie's name on your username. So of course I believe you don't care.

I don’t have Stevie’s name as my username. My name used to be Steve MacDougall, hence SteveMacD. Before that, I was smacdoug on the old usenet newsgroup.

My name has been Stephen Hopkins for the last five years, after getting to know my birth parents, who it turns out got married a few years after I was born and had three more children together. This is the only place where I still have a connection to that old identity.

ETA: my signature pic has been there for at least a year and a half.

[SteveMacD]

BTW, I quit caring last year. Between the album being released as LBCM and the canned backing tracks that were so prominent on the tour, I quit caring. Seeing Christine up close, personal, and enjoying herself was good enough. The fact they got top shelf, respectable choices this time makes it a little easier. Not what I wanted, but still compelling.

[button-lip]

I like her music and I like Christine’s music. The two of them are why I am a Fleetwood Mac fan.

I did not say I didn’t care about her. I said I don’t feel very much sympathy because when you make a decision like this there are bound to be repercussions. I like her music and she is my favorite singer but I am not obsessed with her. She is a human, fascinating, aggravating and flawed but she is not a Goddess. I don’t “worship” any of these people.

The repercussions of her actions doesn't affect her and never will, so I'm still failing to see her in the same victim's light as Lindsey.

[StevieandChris]

The repercussions of her actions doesn't affect her and never will, so I'm still failing to see her in the same victim's light as Lindsey.

And I don’t see Lindsey in a victim’s light. It’s regrettable, but he played a part, just like many people who get fired (as opposed to laid off).

[mitzo]

Lindsey is not a victim. I think his past has come back to haunt him, frankly.

[gldstwmn]

All 5 are part of the tantrum. Something happened in the meeting no one will talk about, and L played a role like others did. This would not have happened otherwise.

I think they all will see themselves as the victim when it suits them. All five.

This has been my theory since day one.

[mitzo]

This has been my theory since day one.

Fully agreed.

[gldstwmn]

I think people are talking at cross purposes....
Gldstwmn mentioned about Lindsey being invited to rehearse but I think he was
talking about 1986/7 and Lindsey then leaving the band
People then thought gldstwmn meant like Now....
I think......

It's both. He quit the tour in 87 and was invited to rehearse on Maui.

[button-lip]

Lindsey is not a victim. I think his past has come back to haunt him, frankly.

So, that makes Stevie the Avenger's Angel?

[TheWildHeart67]

.
So, that makes Stevie the Avenger's Angel?
Yawn.
Neither of them are angels.
Frankly, who cares what somebody else thinks?
If your belief is what you feel in your heart of hearts, so be it.
It sounds like children going into the first grade. "My dad is better than your dad." "No, my dad is better than YOUR dad!"
The Beatles broke up after 10 years, and guess what? The world is still turning.
The Beatles legacy is cemented in history.
So is The Doors.
And so is Fleetwood Mac.
The world will go on without one final album, and without one last Tour of the famed 5 fireflies of Fleetwood Mac.
"Rumours" still charted #1 for 32 weeks.
Whatever "factions" caused this to happen, life can still be good for everybody.
I promise.
If not, you have way more problems going on in your life, than Lindsey Buckingham no longer in Fleetwood Mac.

[button-lip]

Yawn.
Neither of them are angels.
Frankly, who cares what somebody else thinks?
If your belief is what you feel in your heart of hearts, so be it.
It sounds like children going into the first grade. "My dad is better than your dad." "No, my dad is better than YOUR dad!"
The Beatles broke up after 10 years, and guess what? The world is still turning.
The Beatles legacy is cemented in history.
So is The Doors.
And so is Fleetwood Mac.
The world will go on without one final album, and without one last Tour of the famed 5 fireflies of Fleetwood Mac.
"Rumours" still charted #1 for 32 weeks.
Whatever "factions" caused this to happen, life can still be good for everybody.
I promise.
If not, you have way more problems going on in your life, than Lindsey Buckingham no longer in Fleetwood Mac.

Then why are you here wasting your time if this is so meaningless?

[TheWildHeart67]

[QUOTE]Then why are you here wasting your time if this is so meaningless?/QUOTE]
it's fascinating to watch.
Like a train wreck.

[gldstwmn]

Awwww, poor Stevie! I think that this certain group grew a lot these past couple of months, thanks to her behavior.

Truth is many of those fans didn't have a problem with her until she decided to show Lindsey the door. So she's not exactly Sister Stevie.

It seems like it's almost become the trendy thing to do right now. This too shall pass.

[gldstwmn]

Then why are you here wasting your time if this is so meaningless?
it's fascinating to watch.
Like a train wreck.

Agreed. The Rumours and the drama have always been part of the allure of this band. On with the show.

[button-lip]

It seems like it's almost become the trendy thing to do right now. This too shall pass.

It’s like those instant Lindsey fans. The minute he goes back to FM his solo career will be just a memory.

[Storms123]

It’s like those instant Lindsey fans. The minute he goes back to FM his solo career will be just a memory.

Do you think Mick or Christine have lobbed the call in yet? I assume Mick will actually turn to Christine to make that phone call. Those ticket sales...blah blah blah. Definitely curious to see if the iHeart Radio concert helps boost sales.

[SteveMacD]

THIS!
They do all suck! But when they're this close to death, they should have honored the legacy first, above all else. You WANT to go out as LEGENDS? You don't sell out to K-Mart, you DUMB F*CKS!!!!! Which is exactly what they did.

I call BS. I don’t believe for a second that you would have cared about the damage to their legacy if they had FIRED Stevie for not participating on what became LBCM.

I mean, you didn’t buy EP, which was like 75% Lindsey. You didn’t like SYW much and seemed pretty neutral about LBCM. So, exactly how are you THAT put off by them parting ways with Lindsey? It doesn’t appear you’ve liked his work with them over the past 20 years, so it’s clearly not about anything new. Maybe that’s kind of why they’re going in a different direction, that they’re not digging his direction anymore, either.

So, you’d rather they be a cash-grab oldies act than get a very different setlist and possibly new music? Not the legacy I want.

[TheWildHeart67]

I call BS. I don’t believe for a second that you would have cared about the damage to their legacy if they had FIRED Stevie for not participating on what became LBCM.

I mean, you didn’t buy EP, which was like 75% Lindsey. You didn’t like SYW much and seemed pretty neutral about LBCM. So, exactly how are you THAT put off by them parting ways with Lindsey? It doesn’t appear you’ve liked his work with them over the past 20 years, so it’s clearly not about anything new. Maybe that’s kind of why they’re going in a different direction, that they’re not digging his direction anymore, either.

So, you’d rather they be a cash-grab oldies act than get a very different setlist and possibly new music? Not the legacy I want.
Bravo SteveMac,
Now watch the, oh so clever replies from Homer and his bitter minion.

[button-lip]

Bravo SteveMac,
Now watch the, oh so clever replies from Homer and his bitter minion.

:]:]:]:]

The minion is waiting for the Master to answer.

That's all you can come up with? Really?

Glad to see at least you learn to quote. Finally! I know sometimes age is a inconvenience.... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[TheWildHeart67]

The minion is waiting for the Master to answer.

That's all you can come up with? Really?

Glad to see at least you learn to quote. Finally! I know sometimes age is a inconvenience
That didn't take long, bitterlips.
Keep it going, you and your girl, Homer love to complain and hurl insults because you are always right. Queens of the boards.
$tevie really gets your "goat."
C'mon, lets hear some more negativity that seems to perk you up,

[button-lip]

That didn't take long, bitterlips.
Keep it going, you and your girl, Homer love to complain and hurl insults because you are always right. Queens of the boards.
$tevie really gets your "goat."
C'mon, lets hear some more negativity that seems to perk you up,

And it didn't take long for you either. :p

:lol::lol::lol:No, thanks, you are no rival enough for me. :angel: And I've better things to do than answering your nonsenses.

Let SteveMacD and Homer talk without you adding fuel to the fire.

[SteveMacD]

Let SteveMacD and Homer talk without you adding fuel to the fire.

Exactly. We’re capable of having a disagreement without input from others.

[HomerMcvie]

I'm on a party night away from home, and will answer when our driver gets me back to town.
Carry on, in the meantime. Or not...

[HomerMcvie]

I call BS. I don’t believe for a second that you would have cared about the damage to their legacy if they had FIRED Stevie for not participating on what became LBCM.

I mean, you didn’t buy EP, which was like 75% Lindsey. You didn’t like SYW much and seemed pretty neutral about LBCM. So, exactly how are you THAT put off by them parting ways with Lindsey? It doesn’t appear you’ve liked his work with them over the past 20 years, so it’s clearly not about anything new. Maybe that’s kind of why they’re going in a different direction, that they’re not digging his direction anymore, either.

So, you’d rather they be a cash-grab oldies act than get a very different setlist and possibly new music? Not the legacy I want.
Finally home...

Firing Stevie is something they should have done 30 years ago.Without beating a dead hor.....goat, I LOVED her back when she was good. I loathe her now.

The EP. I had 3 friends tell me that it sucked, and to not waste my money. I'm a busy MF, and when people guide me towards(or away) from something, I often heed their advice.

I don't like SYW, so what? But you're WRONG about LBCM. I f*cking LOVE that album, and most of the people here would tell you that I love it. I listened to it in it's entirety 2 days ago. It's the best thing since Mirage.

Anyone with any sense of music can tell you that LINDSEY is the sound behind the band -that made them a household name(AFTER the PG 1960's).
His production style and guitar playing is THEIR SOUND.

That said, I have always preferred the group sound over just LB solo, as I like the blend of voices better, and the mix of songwriters coming together.

They would have been has beens years ago, if it weren't for him.

These f*ckers are OLD. YES, I'd rather have them go out being what we know and(most) love, than turn it into a f*cking karaoke machine.

And BTW, why are you so pissed?

[HomerMcvie]

:]:]:]:]

The minion is waiting for the Master to answer.

That's all you can come up with? Really?

Glad to see at least you learn to quote. Finally! I know sometimes age is a inconvenience.... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Don't waste your time responding to the herd, my friend. Because they're B'aaaaahhhhhhhhhdddddddd.
An oldie but a goodie.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGBqB_k84Ms

[iamnotafraid]

Where is Elle?

I'm thinking she might have jumped back on
the FM wagon. Bet she's even got tickets to
a few shows on the upcoming tour but is too
embarrassed to talk about it.

I have to say, I couldn't admit to something
that egregious either.

[mitzo]

Where is Elle?

I'm thinking she might have jumped back on
the FM wagon. Bet she's even got tickets to
a few shows on the upcoming tour but is too
embarrassed to talk about it.

I have to say, I couldn't admit to something
that egregious either.

Maybe she finally took my advice and got help.

[jbrownsjr]

I'm on a party night away from home, and will answer when our driver gets me back to town.
Carry on, in the meantime. Or not...

I love In The Meantime!!!

[jbrownsjr]

Where is Elle?

I'm thinking she might have jumped back on
the FM wagon. Bet she's even got tickets to
a few shows on the upcoming tour but is too
embarrassed to talk about it.

I have to say, I couldn't admit to something
that egregious either.

I believe she's vacationing overseas... She will be back soon I hope.

[HomerMcvie]

I believe she's vacationing overseas... She will be back soon I hope.

Well, she's also not been very happy here, lately. I suspect that's a part of the reason for her absence, too.

[sasja]

I am just back from vacationing overseas (Netherlands), where I found the interest in this Mac incarnation without Mr. Buckingham to be about -0- . In my neck of the woods. :thumbsup:

[SisterNightroad]

I am just back from vacationing overseas (Netherlands), where I found the interest in this Mac incarnation without Mr. Buckingham to be about -0- . In my neck of the woods. :thumbsup:
In most of Europe the interest about any FM incarnation is about zero. This band is a very American entity, they're not so well known outside of the English speaking countries.

[button-lip]

Maybe she finally took my advice and got help.

Well, if it didn't work for you.... :]:]:]:]

[secret love]

And it didn't take long for you either. :p

:lol::lol::lol:No, thanks, you are no rival enough for me. :angel: And I've better things to do than answering your nonsenses.

Let SteveMacD and Homer talk without you adding fuel to the fire.

Man, I seem to have a knack for creating threads that turn into disagreements that have little to do with the original post!

Carry on your bickering, friends, it is most becoming of you.

[HomerMcvie]

Man, I seem to have a knack for creating threads that turn into disagreements that have little to do with the original post!

Carry on your bickering, friends, it is most becoming of you.

I'm quite certain they needed your permission. :lol:

[button-lip]

Man, I seem to have a knack for creating threads that turn into disagreements that have little to do with the original post!

Carry on your bickering, friends, it is most becoming of you.

Yes, your two creations were certainly the only two threads where people have disagreements.
Why do you think that because people talk through a disagreement it means they're fighting?

It's also most becoming of you to come here and judge. Take some time and read your own thread. You will see that many people here have instigated a disagreement, but of course you always choose me or Homer.

[dreamsunwind]

In most of Europe the interest about any FM incarnation is about zero. This band is a very American entity, they're not so well known outside of the English speaking countries.

People say this a lot and I don't understand it. They've played plenty of shows all across Europe on most of their tours since Rumours. They've played Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France and more. So there clearly has to be SOME interest in them there lol.

[mitzo]

I am just back from vacationing overseas (Netherlands), where I found the interest in this Mac incarnation without Mr. Buckingham to be about -0- . In my neck of the woods. :thumbsup:

They will love it when Lindsey's solo tour bewitches the continent's packed arenas.

[iamnotafraid]

I believe she's vacationing overseas... She will be back soon I hope.

Wonder if she took Alec?

[BombaySapphire3]

People say this a lot and I don't understand it. They've played plenty of shows all across Europe on most of their tours since Rumours. They've played Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France and more. So there clearly has to be SOME interest in them there lol.

Also most people in the Netherlands speak pretty good English:shrug:

[TheWildHeart67]

The minion is waiting for the Master to answer.

That's all you can come up with? Really?

Glad to see at least you learn to quote. Finally! I know sometimes age is a inconvenience....
Yes, that is all I can come up with, and you proved my point.
I don't feel the need to constantly post negative comments about any of the band members.
I feel the band should break-up at this point, and am not supporting this tour.
But I don't constantly post about poor ticket sales, or wish for it to flop, etc.
If others wish to support the tour, let them.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but acting as if the current state of the band is ruining your life, and attacking any members that don't agree with you is silly.
BTW, I know how to quote, but using this board with my android always screws my replies up. If you read my history of posts, you'll see the quotes worked fine when I use my laptop.
So, no, homer didn't teach me how to quote.
And stooping to comments regarding my age is silly, but falls in line with the way you always put other people down:shrug:
Being 51 years old doesn't bother me at all.
You are always on the defense, and I'm sure you and homer will hurl a few more insults my way after this is read.

[button-lip]

Yes, that is all I can come up with, and you proved my point.
I don't feel the need to constantly post negative comments about any of the band members.
I feel the band should break-up at this point, and am not supporting this tour.
But I don't constantly post about poor ticket sales, or wish for it to flop, etc.
If others wish to support the tour, let them.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but acting as if the current state of the band is ruining your life, and attacking any members that don't agree with you is silly.
BTW, I know how to quote, but using this board with my android always screws my replies up. If you read my history of posts, you'll see the quotes worked fine when I use my laptop.
So, no, homer didn't teach me how to quote.
And stooping to comments regarding my age is silly, but falls in line with the way you always put other people down:shrug:
Being 51 years old doesn't bother me at all.
You are always on the defense, and I'm sure you and homer will hurl a few more insults my way after this is read.


If you're gonna log in just for this.....

[HomerMcvie]

The quote function works just fine on my android.:D

[Feather Blade]

The quote function works just fine on my android.:D

I've actually had mine do a couple of wonky things before too. Just one of those things I guess.

[SisterNightroad]

People say this a lot and I don't understand it. They've played plenty of shows all across Europe on most of their tours since Rumours. They've played Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France and more. So there clearly has to be SOME interest in them there lol.

It's difficult to understand because I imagine you are from the US, however you have to think that in all those countries you mentioned they played just a few dates for each country, in many even just a single show, and I don't know if they were full attendances; compared to the dozens of dates and thus respective hordes of participating fans of their homelands it makes a very small percentage of European fans. Even if there are indeed enough fans to fulfill those few -sometimes single- venues the general public often doesn't even know who they are or have just a vague idea, for example I know just two people here who know the band.
To make an opposite example Laura Pausini is arguably the most successful and famous italian singer and often tours in America but I don't think she's widely known by the general American public.

Also most people in the Netherlands speak pretty good English:shrug:
I was talking about countries that have English as their first language, but I have to say that where I live there are tons of tourists from the Netherlands, and I still have to find one that speaks "good" English, not that I'm a splendid English speaker myself.

[FuzzyPlum]

People say this a lot and I don't understand it. They've played plenty of shows all across Europe on most of their tours since Rumours. They've played Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France and more. So there clearly has to be SOME interest in them there lol.


They usually play 5-10 European shows outside the UK (and about the same again in the UK). Mostly those are single shows in any one country. There are around 50 countries in Europe. Therefore there are fans across Europe that have to travel across to neighboring countries to see them when they come over here.

[TheWildHeart67]

I'm aware of that. You missed my point. You brought up that Stevie actually "worked" with Bob Dylan (even though she barely did) while Lindsey "merely" covered him (as if that says something about her over him), and then talking about how success is showing up. Well Stevie never would've met Bob had she shown up to record with HER band. But she didn't and was quite a mess during that time, which was part of WHY Lindsey didn't want to tour. Because almost the entire band (save Christine) had been such a flaky mess during the recording. Even Mick admitted to how bad it had gotten and that he didn't blame Lindsey for wanting out.
And I wouldn't have gone to that rehearsal in Maui anyways. After all that happened and they've already gotten a "replacement" for you, what's the point
All true. But what is interesting to me, is Lindsey quitting before the tour after Stevie got sober. She was a hot mess during the period up until she went to Betty Ford. She was no longer doing coke and her klonopin issues hadn't become apparent yet. Maybe the behavior she exhibited before Betty Ford was enough for him to simply want to walk away.

[David]

All true. But what is interesting to me, is Lindsey quitting before the tour after Stevie got sober. She was a hot mess during the period up until she went to Betty Ford. She was no longer doing coke and her klonopin issues hadn't become apparent yet. Maybe the behavior she exhibited before Betty Ford was enough for him to simply want to walk away. What I've heard is that the behavior that turned him off was just as much sourcing from Mick as from Stevie.

In August 1986, during the latter stages of production on the album, Nicks, Fleetwood, and Buckingham all appeared by invitation at a big benefit concert in L.A. and played short sets. After Buckingham spoke warmly onstage of "healing" and re-established band ties, backstage Nicks and Fleetwood totally ignored Buckingham. Not a good time.

[jbrownsjr]

What I've heard is that the behavior that turned him off was just as much sourcing from Mick as from Stevie.

In August 1986, during the latter stages of production on the album, Nicks, Fleetwood, and Buckingham all appeared by invitation at a big benefit concert in L.A. and played short sets. After Buckingham spoke warmly onstage of "healing" and re-established band ties, backstage Nicks and Fleetwood totally ignored Buckingham. Not a good time.

I've never heard this story. Very interesting.

[button-lip]

What I've heard is that the behavior that turned him off was just as much sourcing from Mick as from Stevie.

In August 1986, during the latter stages of production on the album, Nicks, Fleetwood, and Buckingham all appeared by invitation at a big benefit concert in L.A. and played short sets. After Buckingham spoke warmly onstage of "healing" and re-established band ties, backstage Nicks and Fleetwood totally ignored Buckingham. Not a good time.

Also never heard this story, but it fits perfectly with what's happening now. These two were made for each other.

[David]

Also never heard this story, but it fits perfectly with what's happening now. These two were made for each other.
That's why I always said those two were the deepest love in the band. Stevie toured in 1986, and Mick was onstage with her playing conga drums at every show she did in California: Inglewood, Costa Mesa, San Diego, Sacramento, Long Beach, San Jose, etc. They were super-tight. They've always been super-tight except for the one year she got mad at him when she was doing Timespace. That's the only big fight I ever heard the two of them had.

[jbrownsjr]

That's why I always said those two were the deepest love in the band. Stevie toured in 1986, and Mick was onstage with her playing conga drums at every show she did in California: Inglewood, Costa Mesa, San Diego, Sacramento, Long Beach, San Jose, etc. They were super-tight. They've always been super-tight except for the one year she got mad at him when she was doing Timespace. That's the only big fight I ever heard the two of them had.

I've felt the same sentiment. Mick and $tevie have always been very close. I remember when we had the onslaught of shippers for B/N and they would die at the thought.

[HomerMcvie]

I've felt the same sentiment. Mick and $tevie have always been very close. I remember when we had the onslaught of shippers for B/N and they would die at the thought.
That's because they're both drama queens/whores.

[jbrownsjr]

That's because they're both drama queens/whores.

shippers or Mick and $tevie?

[HomerMcvie]

shippers or Mick and $tevie?

D) All of the above.:lol:

[nicepace]

That's why I always said those two were the deepest love in the band.

Hasn't this been obvious since the two of them appeared together on the cover of Rumours, without the rest of the band?

[Neal]

Hasn't this been obvious since the two of them appeared together on the cover of Rumours, without the rest of the band?

The rest of them were there...

at Mick & Stevie's feet.

[jbrownsjr]

The rest of them were there...

at Mick & Stevie's feet.

at the rainbow's end.

[button-lip]

That's why I always said those two were the deepest love in the band. Stevie toured in 1986, and Mick was onstage with her playing conga drums at every show she did in California: Inglewood, Costa Mesa, San Diego, Sacramento, Long Beach, San Jose, etc. They were super-tight. They've always been super-tight except for the one year she got mad at him when she was doing Timespace. That's the only big fight I ever heard the two of them had.

I have been watching In Your Dreams for the first time this weekend. Mick is there all.the.time. And when Lindsey is there for Soldier’s Angel you can see nobody wants him there, not even Stevie. I really hope he’s truly done with Stevie and her entourage, including Mick.


I've felt the same sentiment. Mick and $tevie have always been very close. I remember when we had the onslaught of shippers for B/N and they would die at the thought.

Yeah, every time I suggest this two will end up together there’s always some BN shipper ready to punch me in the face. But it’s hard to deny there was something always there. Even Lindsey saw it before the RS cover.

[dreamsunwind]

I have been watching In Your Dreams for the first time this weekend. Mick is there all.the.time. And when Lindsey is there for Soldier’s Angel you can see nobody wants him there, not even Stevie. I really hope he’s truly done with Stevie and her entourage, including Mick.


If Stevie didn't want him there at that time she wouldn't have called him.

[dreamsunwind]

Mick and Stevie have always been best friends lol. They've said so themselves for years and years. The brief affair they had was basically a little blip in the history of their long, tight friendship. It makes sense that they would be such good friends because they're fairly similar people.

[Nathan]

That's why I always said those two were the deepest love in the band. Stevie toured in 1986, and Mick was onstage with her playing conga drums at every show she did in California: Inglewood, Costa Mesa, San Diego, Sacramento, Long Beach, San Jose, etc. They were super-tight. They've always been super-tight except for the one year she got mad at him when she was doing Timespace. That's the only big fight I ever heard the two of them had.

I always thought a big part of their closeness was the cocaine.

[Nathan]

That didn't take long, bitterlips.
Keep it going, you and your girl, Homer love to complain and hurl insults because you are always right. Queens of the boards.
$tevie really gets your "goat."
C'mon, lets hear some more negativity that seems to perk you up,

Yass Queen.

[Angel75]

If Stevie didn't want him there at that time she wouldn't have called him.

Exactly. Dave Stewart couldn't understand her music vision with this song so she called LB as she knew he would get it right (as he usually would)... If she didn't want him helping her and at her house, making her album she never would have asked him.

[Angel75]

I always thought a big part of their closeness was the cocaine.

:thumbsup: Yes, good call, that would have been a huge common denominator at one point....that and as dreamsunwind mentioned they are VERY similar people...motivated by the same things

[button-lip]

If Stevie didn't want him there at that time she wouldn't have called him.

One thing is to want someone and a very different thing is to need someone, whether you like it or not. If she had wanted him she would have called him first, instead of exhausting all resources first.

[sodascouts]

One thing is to want someone and a very different thing is to need someone, whether you like it or not. If she had wanted him she would have called him first, instead of exhausting all resources first.

She'd hardly exhausted all resources. He was the person she thought of when her album's producer wasn't getting it. She also invited him to sing and play on the song at her 2011 birthday party at the Wiltern, which she didn't "need" to do.

However horribly she is treating him now, let's not rewrite history.

[button-lip]

She'd hardly exhausted all resources. He was the person she thought of when her album's producer wasn't getting it. She also invited him to sing and play on the song at her 2011 birthday party at the Wiltern, which she didn't "need" to do.

However horribly she is treating him now, let's not rewrite history.

I don’t need to rewrite history (and I honestly don’t care). She’s doing it for me.

You don’t wake up one day and decide you hate someone enough to get fired. It takes time.

[Angel75]

You don’t wake up one day and decide you hate someone enough to get fired. It takes time.

That's right, it takes time literally.....so from 2011 to now a lot has changed for her to have become resentful and spiteful....Christine returning, her solo tour, BuckMcVie, TP passing...she's in a totally different headspace now...and not a positive one

[button-lip]

That's right, it takes time literally.....so from 2011 to now a lot has changed for her to have become resentful and spiteful....Christine returning, her solo tour, BuckMcVie, TP passing...she's in a totally different headspace now...and not a positive one

I think Christine returning and BuckVie were pivotal in her behavior change, whether some like to believe it or not,

[HomerMcvie]

I think Christine returning and BuckVie were pivotal in her behavior change, whether some like to believe it or not,

I believe Christine coming back influenced her a lot. She felt like THE star until Chris came back. Then she saw how excited the fans were to have her back, and reality kicked in.

Bitter little troll.;)

[secondhandchain]

I believe Christine coming back influenced her a lot. She felt like THE star until Chris came back. Then she saw how excited the fans were to have her back, and reality kicked in.

Bitter little troll.;)

Didn't she say something in an interview where she did not sound happy about them going forward with it. I remember something like that. And yes she is a bitter old tambourine troll. This is not going to be a fun tour for them because people like us are everywhere. I'm foreseeing big Lindsey signs being held up at the concerts RIGHT in front of Tambourine B/witch. Might be fun...and worth the money.

[button-lip]

I believe Christine coming back influenced her a lot. She felt like THE star until Chris came back. Then she saw how excited the fans were to have her back, and reality kicked in.

Bitter little troll.;)

I think she knew the return of Christine meant the end of her "almost normal at times" relationship with Lindsey. She always knew they share a musical connection and of course that makes her jealous. She knew she was gonna ruin it with her jealousy and bitterness.

She should have recorded that FM album and BM would have never existed. :shrug:

[snroxman]

re:She should have recorded that FM album and BM would have never existed.

Exactly. It looked even then like she herself created the situation with a narrative that ultimately lead to the return and Fleetwood Mac tour. Narrative Spin ... response - Poof! Christine's back! Problem solved.

[HomerMcvie]

Didn't she say something in an interview where she did not sound happy about them going forward with it. I remember something like that. And yes she is a bitter old tambourine troll. This is not going to be a fun tour for them because people like us are everywhere. I'm foreseeing big Lindsey signs being held up at the concerts RIGHT in front of Tambourine B/witch. Might be fun...and worth the money.

I sure hope they do. Surely to god they couldn't have security keep people out with "#teamLindsey", etc, T-shirts on.

I hope they YELL it when she's blathering on, yammering one of her endless, self-absorbed stories.

And it would be fun, if there was a group of people intent on getting their message heard(or in her case, herd).

[Angel75]

And it would be fun, if there was a group of people intent on getting their message heard(or in her case, herd).

Herd.....Hmmmm I see what you did there

[HomerMcvie]

Herd.....Hmmmm I see what you did there

A golden moldy to accompany....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGBqB_k84Ms

[secondhandchain]

A golden moldy to accompany....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGBqB_k84Ms

HA HA! A new version of Goatsy..... er I mean Gypsy.

[AncientQueen]

I believe Christine coming back influenced her a lot. She felt like THE star until Chris came back. Then she saw how excited the fans were to have her back, and reality kicked in.

Bitter little troll.;)Yes! In 2015 we had flowers and a big Welcome back sign for Christine and Stevie was pissed. To the point that she did not even pretend to be happy onstage. She was unprofessional and did not even say goodnight, little troll that she has become.

[button-lip]

Yes! In 2015 we had flowers and a big Welcome back sign for Christine and Stevie was pissed. To the point that she did not even pretend to be happy onstage. She was unprofessional and did not even say goodnight, little troll that she has become.

Thanks for the story! I always thought she was jealous because of her musical relationship with Lindsey but this is even better! :thumbsup:

[sue]

I also think in the years before Christine returned, Stevie could have imagined ..
It’s Buckingham Nicks, still on stage, touring together..after all these years, on stage they were B/N. plus band.
I think at first she wecolmed Christine back but then realised the B/N party had ended...
And Christine gets on with Lindsey

[UnwindedDreams]

Yes! In 2015 we had flowers and a big Welcome back sign for Christine and Stevie was pissed. To the point that she did not even pretend to be happy onstage. She was unprofessional and did not even say goodnight, little troll that she has become.
Thank you for that insight!
So she didn't even give the dreamcatcher/universal consciousness of FM fans speech?!! Was this in Koln by any chance?

[secondhandchain]

Thank you for that insight!
So she didn't even give the dreamcatcher/universal consciousness of FM fans speech?!! Was this in Koln by any chance?

So is she going to give the dream catcher speech at the next tour that "all of the fans in the FM universe got together and willed Lindsey's firing". She'll say anything. She's become so insufferable the last 3 years and I wonder if she got hit on the head or something cuz girl ain't right anymore.

[AncientQueen]

Thank you for that insight!
So she didn't even give the dreamcatcher/universal consciousness of FM fans speech?!! Was this in Koln by any chance?Yes, in Köln. We were so pissed off by her behaviour.

[button-lip]

I also think in the years before Christine returned, Stevie could have imagined ..
It’s Buckingham Nicks, still on stage, touring together..after all these years, on stage they were B/N. plus band.
I think at first she wecolmed Christine back but then realised the B/N party had ended...
And Christine gets on with Lindsey

Perfect description. Couldn't have said it better! :thumbsup:

Sadly, this is exactly how it happened. :distress:

[button-lip]

Yes, in Köln. We were so pissed off by her behaviour.

I was there on June to see Queen. Beautiful city. Fantastic beer. :thumbsup:

[SteveMacD]

The EP. I had 3 friends tell me that it sucked, and to not waste my money. I'm a busy MF, and when people guide me towards(or away) from something, I often heed their advice.

FWIW, I liked most of it. I’ve made dumber purchases.

I don't like SYW, so what?

It just seems to me that you haven’t actually dug Lindsey that much over the past twenty years or so.

Anyone with any sense of music can tell you that LINDSEY is the sound behind the band -that made them a household name(AFTER the PG 1960's).
His production style and guitar playing is THEIR SOUND.

And that’s where I completely disagree. I’m not trying to minimize Lindsey’s impact or importance, but the Fleetwood Mac sound is the Fleetwood-McVie-McVie rhythm section. It’s what ties Mr. Wonderful to LBCM. It was there on Bare Trees and and it was there on Time. Lindsey was able to refine and expand upon that sound, especially since he had more studio time on that first album than Bob Welch had during his entire tenure, but he didn’t define it.

These f*ckers are OLD. YES, I'd rather have them go out being what we know and(most) love, than turn it into a f*cking karaoke machine.

Isn’t that what we were saying about the LBCM tour, though? I’d rather they go out as a quartet. That wasn’t in the cards. They got credible musicians, so I’m curious to see how it goes.

And BTW, why are you so pissed?


Not pissed. Genuinely curious. I will say that the speculation and conjecture (not necessarily by you) constantly being stated as fact gets a little old. None of us were there. We don’t actually know what went down.

[tsitopen]

i can't believe you guys are STILL at this...but then again, I'm here reading it so...

[SteveMacD]

i can't believe you guys are STILL at this...but then again, I'm here reading it so...

Like three weeks later. :shrug:

[Buster]

I will say that the speculation and conjecture (not necessarily by you) constantly being stated as fact gets a little old. None of us were there. We don’t actually know what went down.

Yes, this x1000. The endless conjecture by people who act like they were in Stevie’s “basement” when this all went down is eye-rolling. As are the statements that it’s going to be an awful time for Stevie on this tour. Just because some people are riled up in social media and this board doesn’t mean there is a massive wave out there. The shows are going to be filled with casual fans who don’t care about the change in lineup or don’t even know about it. Plus some diehards who will go no matter what.

If people want to waste $ on front row seats only as a protest to wear special t-shirts or hold signs, well maybe it’s time for them to reflect on priorities and what is truly important in life.

Also, no one knows what’s going on with Stevie. All this trying to get in her head, saying that she’s making decisions out of grief or being bitter - more conjecture by people who really know nothing, just making stuff up and calling it facts. I think a little projection actually.

Even the Koln thing - I’ve seen her in a bad mood during a couple of shows. Deciding because it was because of a sign welcoming Christine - I don’t know about that.

[tsitopen]

Like three weeks later. :shrug:

Come on SMACDOUG I come around once every decade and that's all you throw me? You've changed man.

[secondhandchain]

[QUOTE=Buster;1234729]Yes, this x1000. The endless conjecture by people who act like they were in Stevie’s “basement” when this all went down is eye-rolling. As are the statements that it’s going to be an awful time for Stevie on this tour. Just because some people are riled up in social media and this board doesn’t mean there is a massive wave out there. The shows are going to be filled with casual fans who don’t care about the change in lineup or don’t even know about it. Plus some diehards who will go no matter what.

If people want to waste $ on front row seats only as a protest to wear special t-shirts or hold signs, well maybe it’s time for them to reflect on priorities and what is truly important in life./////




I can only hope the sign thing comes to fruition. Will make for some ENTERTAINING AF shows.

[David]

Come on SMACDOUG I come around once every decade and that's all you throw me? You've changed man.

Nepotista?

[TheWildHeart67]

It seems barely anybody wants to talk about the music. It's become constant rehashing of negative, bickering.
I don't think I will be posting much in the Rumours group anymore.
I don't care who's fault it was that Lindsey is gone. Or how cleverly everyone puts each other down.

[KenshiMaster16]

I think both sentiments fit actually and are not wrong. The Mac sound is, imo, Fleetwood/McVie/McVie. But the mainstream Mac sound, the sound that made them legends, thats all Lindsey and fits with the previously mentioned sound like a glove, just more refined. Two slight changes that make all the difference to me but Lindsey perfected that sound and knew exactly what to do with it to make it perfect.

[tsitopen]

Nepotista?

Present and accounted for.

Maybe I have to like really slam Dave Mason for Steve to notice me?

[SteveMacD]

Present and accounted for.

Maybe I have to like really slam Dave Mason for Steve to notice me?

Hell, I’m just as apt to slam Dave these days.

BTW, since it’s been about a decade, I don’t know if you knew I did this about eight years ago. (I’m playing the guitar with the stars strap…)

http://bigtakeover.com/images/10044.jpg

[tsitopen]

Hell, I’m just as apt to slam Dave these days.

BTW, since it’s been about a decade, I don’t know if you knew I did this about eight years ago. (I’m playing the guitar with the stars strap…)

http://bigtakeover.com/images/10044.jpg

Wait that’s not a tuba

[SteveMacD]

Wait that’s not a tuba

Oddly enough, Bob wanted me to get a Tuba for some projects…I would if I remembered how to play it. But, that ended even before I was all that interested in Dave Mason, and that waned a couple of decades ago.

[tsitopen]

Oddly enough, Bob wanted me to get a Tuba for some projects…I would if I remembered how to play it. But, that ended even before I was all that interested in Dave Mason, and that waned a couple of decades ago.

**** we're getting old dude. Not as old as Uncle Bob there but still long in the tooth. Doesn't it seem like only yesterday the mud was slingin around usenet? Although a quick perusal of posts here doesn't really seem that different than the old days.