Stevie as scapegoat

[secret love]

Hi everybody! (I'm Dr Nick...)
So this is a very contentious issue I'm going to open up here.
Stevie Nicks as scapegoat!
It appears that almost everything that is wrong with Fleetwood Mac is in some way, Stephanie Lynn Nicks' fault. Do you agree? Or partially agree, or disagree?
I'm not putting this out here to defend or to criticise Stevie. I'm raising the issue to get a range of perspectives, both positive for Stevie and negative against Stevie.
And if you want my opinion? Well I think she is largely the one stopping Fleetwood Mac recording new music since 2009. But I don't blame her for Lindsey for leaving/being terminated. I think that's the easy way out to lump all of the blame for that tragic circumstance on to her. And I don't think she has as much power in the band as people seem to believe.
In the meantime, enjoy some of Stevie's best piano playing:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/aTMblveEshw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StevieandChris]

I think the decision was made based on a mixture of business and personal reasons. I believe all 5 contributed to the breakdown. This happened over time. I think it is was clear after Say You Will that Stevie never wanted to record with Lindsey again. I think Lindsey’s attitude/behavior also plays a part. I am not convinced by that video shot by fans means he never said he wanted to delay the tour until 2019. He easily could have said that to FM in the weeks preceding that video. His request combined with his comments over the Classic shows and his manager PLUS the ongoing tension with Stevie may have been what cemented his fate. Was it the right decision? I don’t think so. She is obviously narcissistic and has an overflated ego (as does Mick, and as does Lindsey). It’s disappointing. I think the four will regret the decision. But the decision was made. I think the idea anyone is above being fired is ridiculous, no matter how popular or important someone is. If they had given Stevie her walking papers for not recording what became BuckVie, that would have been their right.

I am trying not to argue about it with anyone anymore because it is exhausting and people are upset and need to have a target. Right now that target is Stevie and Mick.

[bwboy]

I think the decision was made based on a mixture of business and personal reasons. I believe all 5 contributed to the breakdown. This happened over time. I think it is was clear after Say You Will that Stevie never wanted to record with Lindsey again. I think Lindsey’s attitude/behavior also plays a part. I am not convinced by that video shot by fans means he never said he wanted to delay the tour until 2019. He easily could have said that to FM in the weeks preceding that video. His request combined with his comments over the Classic shows and his manager PLUS the ongoing tension with Stevie may have been what cemented his fate. Was it the right decision? I don’t think so. She is obviously narcissistic and has an overflated ego (as does Mick, and as does Lindsey). It’s disappointing. I think the four will regret the decision. But the decision was made. I think the idea anyone is above being fired is ridiculous, no matter how popular or important someone is. If they had given Stevie her walking papers for not recording what became BuckVie, that would have been their right.

I am trying not to argue about it with anyone anymore because it is exhausting and people are upset and need to have a target. Right now that target is Stevie and Mick.

Wow, I agree with everything you said! I don't understand this Stevie fans vs Lindsey fans fiasco going on here. Actually, I'm kind of confused by it, because how can you be a fan of one and not the other? Just because some people are still fans of FM and plan to see them in concert doesn't mean we're happy Lindsey is gone. The two ideas aren't exclusive. If FM had fired Stevie, I would still buy their albums and probably see them in concert, IF all four band members were performing.

Seeing one poster gloat about poor ticket sales for some of the FM dates on another thread, for example. It doesn't bother me, it's just so childish. And she would be the first one to have a fit if someone posted how some of the Buck/Vie shows sold poorly, which is ironic. Or if someone posted how happy they were Lindsey's solo album and or solo tour might be postponed now. It's so weird, I mean why would anyone be happy about that? Even if you don't like Lindsey, for some bizarre reason, why would you be happy his album or tour was postponed? I mean, why would a non-fan care at all, let alone gloat about it?

So while I'm disappointed they fired Lindsey, I believe they had their reasons because they're giving up a guaranteed payday. Whether this new lineup will record together, I don't know and don't care, I'm just taking it a day at a time and looking forward to seeing how this version of Fleetwood Mac does.

[StevieandChris]

Wow, I agree with everything you said! I don't understand this Stevie fans vs Lindsey fans fiasco going on here. Actually, I'm kind of confused by it, because how can you be a fan of one and not the other? Just because some people are still fans of FM and plan to see them in concert doesn't mean we're happy Lindsey is gone. The two ideas aren't exclusive. If FM had fired Stevie, I would still buy their albums and probably see them in concert, IF all four band members were performing.

Seeing one poster gloat about poor ticket sales for some of the FM dates on another thread, for example. It doesn't bother me, it's just so childish. And she would be the first one to have a fit if someone posted how some of the Buck/Vie shows sold poorly, which is ironic. Or if someone posted how happy they were Lindsey's solo album and or solo tour might be postponed now. It's so weird, I mean why would anyone be happy about that? Even if you don't like Lindsey, for some bizarre reason, why would you be happy his album or tour was postponed? I mean, why would a non-fan care at all, let alone gloat about it?

So while I'm disappointed they fired Lindsey, I believe they had their reasons because they're giving up a guaranteed payday. Whether this new lineup will record together, I don't know and don't care, I'm just taking it a day at a time and looking forward to seeing how this version of Fleetwood Mac does.

Yes, agree with all of your post too! We will just have to wait and see what happens! This is just another dramatic chapter in the band’s history!

[secondhandchain]

I think what you don't realize is, MOST of us used to be fans of BOTH. I know I was, but she has squandered that. You can never believe anything that comes out of her mouth anymore. She can't keep her stories straight and has changed not for the better the last couple of years. Not trying to be a d#ck about it, it's just the way it is for a lot of us. Older age is not agreeing with her. That being said I'll always love a lot of her music, it's not about that, it's about her behavior specifically the last couple of years.

[iamnotafraid]

I think what you don't realize is, MOST of us used to be fans of BOTH. I know I was, but she has squandered that. You can never believe anything that comes out of her mouth anymore.

She can't keep her stories straight and has changed not for the better the last couple of years. Not trying to be a d#ck about it, it's just the way it is for a lot of us.

Older age is not agreeing with her. That being said I'll always love a lot of her music, it's not about that, it's about her behavior specifically the last couple of years.

Most of us? What exact number are you basing that on?

Last couple of years? No real numbers?

You can be a duck if you want to be.

A lot of us? How many of us?

Glad I didn't comment on her age.

A lot? Like how many?

Couple of years? Anyway you could come up with a number?

_________________________________________

I became a Stevie Fan in 1983 (specific number). And
I'm not happy with her right now (5/14/2018). But I'm
still going to listen to her music whenever I want.

#istandwithlindsey

[SisterNightroad]

Most of us? What exact number are you basing that on?

Last couple of years? No real numbers?

You can be a duck if you want to be.

A lot of us? How many of us?

Glad I didn't comment on her age.

A lot? Like how many?

Couple of years? Anyway you could come up with a number?

_________________________________________

I became a Stevie Fan in 1983 (specific number). And
I'm not happy with her right now (5/14/2018). But I'm
still going to listen to her music whenever I want.

#istandwithlindsey
Could that which we call a rose cease to have its scent if we called it by another name?

[gldstwmn]

Hi everybody! (I'm Dr Nick...)
So this is a very contentious issue I'm going to open up here.
Stevie Nicks as scapegoat!
It appears that almost everything that is wrong with Fleetwood Mac is in some way, Stephanie Lynn Nicks' fault. Do you agree? Or partially agree, or disagree?


I've said before that I think it is in part due to misogyny that Stevie is being blamed for everything. But I was told not to discuss it so I don't even know if it's okay for me to say that in this thread. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

I think the decision was made based on a mixture of business and personal reasons. I believe all 5 contributed to the breakdown. This happened over time. I think it is was clear after Say You Will that Stevie never wanted to record with Lindsey again. I think Lindsey’s attitude/behavior also plays a part. I am not convinced by that video shot by fans means he never said he wanted to delay the tour until 2019. He easily could have said that to FM in the weeks preceding that video. His request combined with his comments over the Classic shows and his manager PLUS the ongoing tension with Stevie may have been what cemented his fate. Was it the right decision? I don’t think so. She is obviously narcissistic and has an overflated ego (as does Mick, and as does Lindsey). It’s disappointing. I think the four will regret the decision. But the decision was made. I think the idea anyone is above being fired is ridiculous, no matter how popular or important someone is. If they had given Stevie her walking papers for not recording what became BuckVie, that would have been their right.

I am trying not to argue about it with anyone anymore because it is exhausting and people are upset and need to have a target. Right now that target is Stevie and Mick.

I agree that the video and the statements from those close to the band were proof positive of nothing.

[gldstwmn]

Could that which we call a rose cease to have its scent if we called it by another name?

A rose by any other name is still a rose. If it walks like a duck...

[krrrby]

I think she does get a lot of blame over the years for a lot of reasons, but that's not to excuse the diva she is either.

The only shady thing I think happened was Christine mentioned she was, "Already in London" by the time this decision was made. I think she honestly wants nothing much to do with it, it's not her drama so to speak.

Mick loves to make everything about him anyway so I never believe much that comes out of his mouth.

Overall, they are all part of the equation. They have been fighting like this for years, it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone anymore that this has been building up since their 1997 reunion and Pandora's Box has finally opened up with this band.

I was upset by it all at first, but now I'm just like ....oh well. We have 40+ years of music to dwell on so let it be what it is at this point.

One thing we can say for sure, Fleetwood Mac has never been a dull story of a band.

[The Catdancer]

I think what you don't realize is, MOST of us used to be fans of BOTH. I know I was, but she has squandered that. You can never believe anything that comes out of her mouth anymore. She can't keep her stories straight and has changed not for the better the last couple of years. Not trying to be a d#ck about it, it's just the way it is for a lot of us. Older age is not agreeing with her. That being said I'll always love a lot of her music, it's not about that, it's about her behavior specifically the last couple of years.

Yes! This, I totally agree with this. She changed from a rock 'n roll hippie into a rock 'n roll diva. As for the music, I like some of the "newer" stuff but I usually play the old stuff (from BN to RAL).

[Murrow]

I've expressed some of this in other threads but this seems more appropriate for the purpose.

Yes I do blame her for a lot.

2005 or so: I'm not doing another Mac album as the only female.

2014: Can we delay Mac activity even though Chris is back cos I've booked studio time.

One tour later

2016: I don't want to do a Mac album period.

My considered opinion is that Mick should have said "We're not waiting" to her in 2016 (better still 2014) the same way he claims he's done with Lindsey.

More than anything I blame Mick. He's just got too much of a soft spot for Stevie to put his foot down with her about anything these days. Did he seriously think having BOTH those two back in the band was going to work for any great length of time. All it produced was 20 years of jack s*** apart from Say You Will and that poxy excuse for an EP.

[markolas]

I've said before that I think it is in part due to misogyny that Stevie is being blamed for everything. But I was told not to discuss it so I don't even know if it's okay for me to say that in this thread. :shrug:

Yes, it definitely is, and it’s a big part of the reason I don’t post here much anymore. I also saw where Christine was called a skank because of Lindsey’s departure as well. But it’s more often aimed at Stevie.

And the fact that you were told not to discuss it is appalling.

[gldstwmn]

Yes, it definitely is, and it’s a big part of the reason I don’t post here much anymore. I also saw where Christine was called a skank because of Lindsey’s departure as well. But it’s more often aimed at Stevie.



When they started to turn on Christine I realized that we'd started to cross the Rubicon. :lol::eek:

[Dr.Brown]

I've expressed some of this in other threads but this seems more appropriate for the purpose.

Yes I do blame her for a lot.

2005 or so: I'm not doing another Mac album as the only female.

2014: Can we delay Mac activity even though Chris is back cos I've booked studio time.

One tour later

2016: I don't want to do a Mac album period.

My considered opinion is that Mick should have said "We're not waiting" to her in 2016 (better still 2014) the same way he claims he's done with Lindsey.

More than anything I blame Mick. He's just got too much of a soft spot for Stevie to put his foot down with her about anything these days. Did he seriously think having BOTH those two back in the band was going to work for any great length of time. All it produced was 20 years of jack s*** apart from Say You Will and that poxy excuse for an EP.

Mick's soft spot is that he knows which side his bread is buttered on, realizing that an FM with Stevie means much more money in his wallet than one without. This is why so many are disgusted - this once great band has been reduced to nothing more than a cash cow for him. Witness his charging fans $600 a pop plus fees for a brief meeting (ticket price not included!) as part of what I call his "Meet & Fleece" program.

There are also those who are very disappointed with Christine as I am but I'm certain that in an earlier era Christine would have been much more outspoken. The thing is she's now pushing 75 and age sadly does take its toll. :(

[markolas]

When they started to turn on Christine I realized that we'd started to cross the Rubicon. :lol::eek:

People have created an entire alternate reality in their own heads. Apparently, Mick and Stevie orchestrated this and it was a plot. A plot against Lindsey! And Christine is either a skank, or she's gotten too old and senile to object.

I love Lindsey and when I saw the first article about him being fired, I thought it was a joke. It was a huge shock and I understand why people are upset. I was upset, too. But I don't know these people. I don't know what their motives were.

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

Is that disappointing? Of course it is. But I don't know the woman, and (as far as I know) neither does anyone else here. I do know what it's like to have co-workers that you just can't have a functional professional relationship with, and what it's like to reach a point where you say "I just can't do it anymore." So I can't sit in judgment of her for that, as much as I'm disappointed that we won't get to hear new music from that lineup.

Stevie is probably a diva, and Lindsey is probably controlling, and that combined with their 45-year history together probably creates a lot of drama that is greatly intensified in a recording studio.

The facts are that nobody in the band has really said all that much about this situation, which leaves fans to spin their own elaborate stories, appropriately making heroes or villains of their favorite and non-favorite band members. Which is understandable, but I hope that people understand that their own bigotry shows, and their ranting says a lot more about them that it does about the members of FM. And it's often not pretty.

[krrrby]

I've expressed some of this in other threads but this seems more appropriate for the purpose.

Yes I do blame her for a lot.

2005 or so: I'm not doing another Mac album as the only female.

2014: Can we delay Mac activity even though Chris is back cos I've booked studio time.

One tour later

2016: I don't want to do a Mac album period.

My considered opinion is that Mick should have said "We're not waiting" to her in 2016 (better still 2014) the same way he claims he's done with Lindsey.

More than anything I blame Mick. He's just got too much of a soft spot for Stevie to put his foot down with her about anything these days. Did he seriously think having BOTH those two back in the band was going to work for any great length of time. All it produced was 20 years of jack s*** apart from Say You Will and that poxy excuse for an EP.

To be genuinely fair here...she did drop 24k in 2014 but she still went out on the road with Mac. She didn't hold the band hostage so she could do a tour. She waited until time with the Mac was done. She probably wanted to go out on the road immediately for that album and did not. Because she knows she probably would have been thrown out of the band to some extent.

To add to that: She was done with Mac in 2013 and she was probably anticipating to finish her album and do a tour - then Christine came back in the fold and added another extended tour. She should have theoretically done her album 2014 - toured 2014 or 2015 and then back to mac in 2016 but that didn't happen that way. So I think it would have been unreasonable for Mick to say in 2016 and 2017 too bad let's go we have another tour. They know she flips to her solo work after mac work.

[bwboy]

People have created an entire alternate reality in their own heads. Apparently, Mick and Stevie orchestrated this and it was a plot. A plot against Lindsey! And Christine is either a skank, or she's gotten too old and senile to object.

I love Lindsey and when I saw the first article about him being fired, I thought it was a joke. It was a huge shock and I understand why people are upset. I was upset, too. But I don't know these people. I don't know what their motives were.

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

Is that disappointing? Of course it is. But I don't know the woman, and (as far as I know) neither does anyone else here. I do know what it's like to have co-workers that you just can't have a functional professional relationship with, and what it's like to reach a point where you say "I just can't do it anymore." So I can't sit in judgment of her for that, as much as I'm disappointed that we won't get to hear new music from that lineup.

Stevie is probably a diva, and Lindsey is probably controlling, and that combined with their 45-year history together probably creates a lot of drama that is greatly intensified in a recording studio.

The facts are that nobody in the band has really said all that much about this situation, which leaves fans to spin their own elaborate stories, appropriately making heroes or villains of their favorite and non-favorite band members. Which is understandable, but I hope that people understand that their own bigotry shows, and their ranting says a lot more about them that it does about the members of FM. And it's often not pretty.

Markolas, it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on your perspective of what went down. I pretty much see it your way, too. It's been obvious to many people that Stevie won't record with Lindsey anymore. It's frustrating, but after 40 plus years, they've each earned the right to pick who they can or will work with. FM made a choice and they went with Stevie. It could just as easily have been Lindsey they went with.

I do think Mick sided with Stevie for economic reasons, but that's his right, too. "If we keep Lindsey, we'll get another FM album perhaps, but they won't take John or me on tour with them and the tour won't make as much money anyway because a FM without Stevie won't play big venues or command higher prices. If we keep Stevie, we'll get another FM album perhaps, and we'll get to tour and make more money because a FM with Stevie will play big venues and command higher prices." That's business, but some fans think Mick and John should be content to play on an album (that won't sell well, anyway) and not make money by touring in order to keep their legacy intact. Touring is how this band makes their income. If FM had kicked Stevie out, there would be no arena tour. Actually, there's be no tour at all for John and Mick. Look at what happened when they released Buck/Vie- Lindsey and Christine toured without Mick and John. So yes, it's unfortunate they kicked Lindsey out, but I can see from a financial pov why they did. They've got bills, too.

[dreamsunwind]

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

.

I think it's basically that he produces. If he was just a guitar player/singer/writer I doubt she would be as bothered. But because he produces, he gets a big part in how her songs end up and so they clash. He's also very perfectionist in the studio which I assume she (and probably others) gets irritated or impatient with. The past couple of years he was really trying to lure her back in the studio with him but it didn't work. I think she had a big grudge over SYW which she didn't like making nor did she like the final product so she thought a new FM album would be like SYW part 2. Even I thought this as well which is why I was pleasantly surprised by the BuckVie album. It was overall very sunny and fun and light and I think had she known it would end up sounding that way, she might've agreed to do it.

[MoonSister75]

People have created an entire alternate reality in their own heads. Apparently, Mick and Stevie orchestrated this and it was a plot. A plot against Lindsey! And Christine is either a skank, or she's gotten too old and senile to object.

I love Lindsey and when I saw the first article about him being fired, I thought it was a joke. It was a huge shock and I understand why people are upset. I was upset, too. But I don't know these people. I don't know what their motives were.

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

Is that disappointing? Of course it is. But I don't know the woman, and (as far as I know) neither does anyone else here. I do know what it's like to have co-workers that you just can't have a functional professional relationship with, and what it's like to reach a point where you say "I just can't do it anymore." So I can't sit in judgment of her for that, as much as I'm disappointed that we won't get to hear new music from that lineup.

Stevie is probably a diva, and Lindsey is probably controlling, and that combined with their 45-year history together probably creates a lot of drama that is greatly intensified in a recording studio.

The facts are that nobody in the band has really said all that much about this situation, which leaves fans to spin their own elaborate stories, appropriately making heroes or villains of their favorite and non-favorite band members. Which is understandable, but I hope that people understand that their own bigotry shows, and their ranting says a lot more about them that it does about the members of FM. And it's often not pretty.

Really appreciate your post. It eloquently sums up how I feel about the changes in the band, and the ranting on this board.
Agree with everything you wrote.

[sodascouts]

If it wasn't Lindsey's choice, Christine was not involved, and John was... John, then who is left to actively want Lindsey out?

It pains me to say it because I love Stevie, but the conclusion is inevitable.

This has not made me hate Stevie, though. I for one think her mind was clouded with grief, and Mick went along with it because he knows she is the one who brings in the most fans.

[tabruns]

When they started to turn on Christine I realized that we'd started to cross the Rubicon. :lol::eek:

Reading the threads in the Rumours forum, yeah it seems like there's been an element of misogyny in the over-the-top rage being expressed by some posters. It makes it difficult to take anything they say seriously.

I found it annoying that Nicks was avoiding recording a new Mac album, and I can see why Buckingham fans would feel its really unfair that Nicks didn't get bounced out of the band for refusing to record but Buckingham does for refusing to tour. I think it IS unfair, but I also think its the reality of the business side of Fleetwood Mac: Initially Nicks didn't have much influence in the band even though she was the obvious star of the band. That has changed over the years, I think - Nicks wasn't fired for refusing to record because she couldn't be, whereas Buckingham was fired for not touring because he doesn't hold the power in the band now - Nicks (and Fleetwood) do.

Ultimately though I think the working relationship between Buckingham and Nicks just finally completely broke down, so this result was eventually inevitable. And I think what many irate posters on this board are forgetting is that Fleetwood Mac has always morphed into different bands....saying that Mac should have "just broken up" instead of moving on post-Buckingham is ignoring that fact.

[Missy]

I get very annoyed and disheartened when seeing people apparently blaming Stevie for some of Lindsey's behaviour and the times he most definitely crossed the line as a band member (which has been well documented by various people who are not all team Stevie) - like 'she drove him to it'. Yes I know Stevie has her ego and impetuousness etc but that's no countenance, nor is it okay because particular person is supposed to be a 'musical genius'.

Everything that's been said about Stevie to date could also be applied to Lindsey. So I'm not into blame game.

There are people who say Lindsey's more disturbing behaviour is all in the past, he's mellowed, etc. We might just be seeing one side. The descriptions of him during Rumours and Tusk are almost as if a 'split personality'. Going from charming and agreeable to negative and very testy in an instant. I think he'd still have a tendency to be egotistical, controlling, impatient and difficult to deal with at times.

Over the years it seems Christine has often acted as calming influence and diplomat between parties, but she can't handle all of it and it doesn't fix underlying issues.

I love LB's brilliance as a guitarist and what he contributed. I'm sorry they couldn't work things out so he could continue with the group. It's a shame if he still can't get past his insecurities. (Egotistical people can still have serious insecurities. In fact there may often be a connection.) I believe that Mick may also have had his own difference of opinion with Lindsey. But probably no side entirely to blame on this one. To pin it all on Stevie I think is unfair and yes - shades of misogyny.

I'm not saying all this just to 'hate on' LB. My favourite FM albums are still the ones with Buckingham Nicks but I am aware they had interesting history before that and Buckingham isn't everything about this group.

I still have a few misgivings but willing to give the new lineup a chance.

[JohnL]

People have created an entire alternate reality in their own heads. Apparently, Mick and Stevie orchestrated this and it was a plot. A plot against Lindsey! And Christine is either a skank, or she's gotten too old and senile to object.

I love Lindsey and when I saw the first article about him being fired, I thought it was a joke. It was a huge shock and I understand why people are upset. I was upset, too. But I don't know these people. I don't know what their motives were.

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

Is that disappointing? Of course it is. But I don't know the woman, and (as far as I know) neither does anyone else here. I do know what it's like to have co-workers that you just can't have a functional professional relationship with, and what it's like to reach a point where you say "I just can't do it anymore." So I can't sit in judgment of her for that, as much as I'm disappointed that we won't get to hear new music from that lineup.

Stevie is probably a diva, and Lindsey is probably controlling, and that combined with their 45-year history together probably creates a lot of drama that is greatly intensified in a recording studio.

The facts are that nobody in the band has really said all that much about this situation, which leaves fans to spin their own elaborate stories, appropriately making heroes or villains of their favorite and non-favorite band members. Which is understandable, but I hope that people understand that their own bigotry shows, and their ranting says a lot more about them that it does about the members of FM. And it's often not pretty.

This is the most common sense response I have seen on any section of this board about this issue. Thank you. They all contributed to this...but the fact remains that it is over and we probably will never know all the reasons. Time to move on!!

[Sugar Mouse]

People have created an entire alternate reality in their own heads. Apparently, Mick and Stevie orchestrated this and it was a plot. A plot against Lindsey! And Christine is either a skank, or she's gotten too old and senile to object.

I love Lindsey and when I saw the first article about him being fired, I thought it was a joke. It was a huge shock and I understand why people are upset. I was upset, too. But I don't know these people. I don't know what their motives were.

I've said for a long time that you can read between the lines of Stevie's comments about not wanting to record with Fleetwood Mac, and what she's really saying is that she doesn't want to record with Lindsey. Him, specifically. There is evidently something about their dynamic in a recording studio that she just can't deal with and doesn't want to deal with.

Is that disappointing? Of course it is. But I don't know the woman, and (as far as I know) neither does anyone else here. I do know what it's like to have co-workers that you just can't have a functional professional relationship with, and what it's like to reach a point where you say "I just can't do it anymore." So I can't sit in judgment of her for that, as much as I'm disappointed that we won't get to hear new music from that lineup.

Stevie is probably a diva, and Lindsey is probably controlling, and that combined with their 45-year history together probably creates a lot of drama that is greatly intensified in a recording studio.

The facts are that nobody in the band has really said all that much about this situation, which leaves fans to spin their own elaborate stories, appropriately making heroes or villains of their favorite and non-favorite band members. Which is understandable, but I hope that people understand that their own bigotry shows, and their ranting says a lot more about them that it does about the members of FM. And it's often not pretty.

You hit it right on the head. Lindsey is very, very talented but recording with him is exhausting. He is a dominating presence who wants to control every element of the recording process and it takes many, many months to record an album with him. That's why Stevie wants no part of that process. That is why Stevie is very likely to change her tune about recording once she sees how wonderful a collaborator and songwriter Neil Finn is. In fact, Neil just recorded his last album (the amazing "Out of Silence") in eight hours which was broadcast live on Facebook and YouTube. Eight hours of collaborative joy with Neil vs. eight months of dictatorial pain with Lindsey.

[Dr.Brown]

Note to Neil's resident cheerleader: Christine McVie and the other members of Fleetwood Mac seemed to have no problem working with Lindsey on the "BuckVie" album. Sounds like you're just parroting the opinion of the only member who has a problem working with him. This is exactly why it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who wanted him replaced by a Heartbreaker, killing two birds with one stone, figuratively speaking.

[Sugar Mouse]

Note to Neil's resident cheerleader: Christine McVie and the other members of Fleetwood Mac seemed to have no problem working with Lindsey on the "BuckVie" album. Sounds like you're just parroting the opinion of the only member who has a problem working with him. This is exactly why it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who wanted him replaced by a Heartbreaker, killing two birds with one stone, figuratively speaking.

Christine would never say a bad word about anyone.

John rarely complains about anything.

Mick didn't complain often about Lindsey as Mick is usually focused on getting the best quality studio album completed.

So that leaves Stevie as the one to speak out about Lindsey's exhausting studio projects. Anyone who has watched one of the Mac documentaries knows that Lindsey spends many, many months on an album project sometimes spending weeks on a single song while keeping the other band members in a separate room waiting for hours until Lindsey needs them for something. Lindsey can sometimes take days to decide on one small part of one song. And I commend Lindsey for his hard work and single-minded focus which is an extraordinary skill that resulted in some of the best music of all-time. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for Stevie to say that at the age of 70, she no longer wants to go through that exhausting process of recording a studio album with Lindsey.

[Sugar Mouse]

Note to Neil's resident cheerleader: Christine McVie and the other members of Fleetwood Mac seemed to have no problem working with Lindsey on the "BuckVie" album. Sounds like you're just parroting the opinion of the only member who has a problem working with him. This is exactly why it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who wanted him replaced by a Heartbreaker, killing two birds with one stone, figuratively speaking.

And anyone who knows me will tell you that I don't parrot anyone ...

[dreamsunwind]

Christine would never say a bad word about anyone.

John rarely complains about anything.

Mick didn't complain often about Lindsey as Mick is usually focused on getting the best quality studio album completed.

So that leaves Stevie as the one to speak out about Lindsey's exhausting studio projects. Anyone who has watched one of the Mac documentaries knows that Lindsey spends many, many months on an album project sometimes spending weeks on a single song while keeping the other band members in a separate room waiting for hours until Lindsey needs them for something. Lindsey can sometimes take days to decide on one small part of one song. And I commend Lindsey for his hard work and single-minded focus which is an extraordinary skill that resulted in some of the best music of all-time. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for Stevie to say that at the age of 70, she no longer wants to go through that exhausting process of recording a studio album with Lindsey.

This post amuses me, you referring to the band members as if you know them.
But anyways, it's not that Christine "doesn't say anything bad about anyone". First of all she actually has-- she can be very blunt and she has openly critiqued both Stevie and Lindsey in the past. Apparently (on a lighter note) she even would tell engineers what "ugly fcking shirts" they're wearing!
Second of all, she actually spoke actively about how much she LOVED making the album. Not like she just "didn't say anything bad", she really praised the experience. In a radio interview she did just around the end of last year she casually referred to Lindsey as her "favorite guy to work with".
But I do agree with you that Lindsey's pace probably makes Stevie impatient because it's no fun to her. She's even said she just thinks Lindsey's process is no fun. However I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people think she can just not do it, just because she doesn't want to. She's a member of a band. It's her obligation as a band member to record with her band when they want to record. It wasn't just Lindsey who was ready to record-- it was all of them. Imagine if someone just walked into work and said they don't want to do whatever project their coworkers are doing, just because they don't want to. That's not how life works. Lindsey himself by all accounts had a miserable, near sanity breaking experience recording Tango-- complete with Mick passing out drunk/high in his home, Stevie flying off to sing with Tom Petty for no reason and more-- but he still did it! It's ridiculous that this band has become the "whatever Stevie wants" show.

[Sugar Mouse]

This post amuses me, you referring to the band members as if you know them.
But anyways, it's not that Christine "doesn't say anything bad about anyone". First of all she actually has-- she can be very blunt and she has openly critiqued both Stevie and Lindsey in the past. Apparently (on a lighter note) she even would tell engineers what "ugly fcking shirts" they're wearing!
Second of all, she actually spoke actively about how much she LOVED making the album. Not like she just "didn't say anything bad", she really praised the experience. In a radio interview she did just around the end of last year she casually referred to Lindsey as her "favorite guy to work with".
But I do agree with you that Lindsey's pace probably makes Stevie impatient because it's no fun to her. She's even said she just thinks Lindsey's process is no fun. However I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people think she can just not do it, just because she doesn't want to. She's a member of a band. It's her obligation as a band member to record with her band when they want to record. It wasn't just Lindsey who was ready to record-- it was all of them. Imagine if someone just walked into work and said they don't want to do whatever project their coworkers are doing, just because they don't want to. That's not how life works. Lindsey himself by all accounts had a miserable, near sanity breaking experience recording Tango-- complete with Mick passing out drunk/high in his home, Stevie flying off to sing with Tom Petty for no reason and more-- but he still did it! It's ridiculous that this band has become the "whatever Stevie wants" show.

I see the situation as much more of a balanced problem than you do. I see it being an equal parts Stevie and Lindsey issue while you see this as primarily a Stevie issue. Stevie is the person who gets impatient and doesn't like to spend many months on a project and Lindsey is a bit of a control guy who seems perfectly happy to spend weeks on a single song or part of a song and doesn't want others taking any control away from him. Just as Stevie doesn't want to record an exhausting Lindsey-led studio album, Lindsey doesn't want to change his working style and record an album in one month rather than many months. Life is a two way street and neither side has been ready to compromise which is one of the reason why things broke down earlier this year.

[dreamsunwind]

I see the situation as much more of a balanced problem than you do. I see it being an equal parts Stevie and Lindsey issue while you see this as primarily a Stevie issue. Stevie is the person who gets impatient and doesn't like to spend many months on a project and Lindsey is a bit of a control guy who seems perfectly happy to spend weeks on a single song or part of a song and doesn't want others taking any control away from him. Just as Stevie doesn't want to record an exhausting Lindsey-led studio album, Lindsey doesn't want to change his working style and record an album in one month rather than many months. Life is a two way street and neither side has been ready to compromise which is one of the reason why things broke down earlier this year.

I'm well aware that both sides have their issues. The reason I'm focusing on Stevie is because Stevie is the one that the band has been catering to for years now. And they've done that even though (in my opinion) she has been treating the band like a side piece ever since her solo career took off. They've not recorded when she was busy with something else or didn't want to, they delayed an entire tour by a full year because she wanted to promote her solo album more, they literally released an album with every single other member of the band on it and called it a duet because she didn't want to record. When they did record for the EP, it was when Lindsey basically had to morph into Dave Stewart 2.0 and welcome her into his home with his family and give her the warm and cuddly environment that she likes. Lindsey probably doesn't think Stevie is a cup of tea to record with either. He probably think she needs to be pampered and she's never satisfied and she's not some skilled musician like Christine. But in the end, he was still willing to do it and yet she's the one who has consistently gotten what she wanted. Lindsey on the other hand, didn't get the final album he wanted and then even got pushed out of the band.

[Sugar Mouse]

I'm well aware that both sides have their issues. The reason I'm focusing on Stevie is because Stevie is the one that the band has been catering to for years now. And they've done that even though (in my opinion) she has been treating the band like a side piece ever since her solo career took off. They've not recorded when she was busy with something else or didn't want to, they delayed an entire tour by a full year because she wanted to promote her solo album more, they literally released an album with every single other member of the band on it and called it a duet because she didn't want to record. When they did record for the EP, it was when Lindsey basically had to morph into Dave Stewart 2.0 and welcome her into his home with his family and give her the warm and cuddly environment that she likes. Lindsey probably doesn't think Stevie is a cup of tea to record with either. He probably think she needs to be pampered and she's never satisfied and she's not some skilled musician like Christine. But in the end, he was still willing to do it and yet she's the one who has consistently gotten what she wanted. Lindsey on the other hand, didn't get the final album he wanted and then even got pushed out of the band.

You don't think that the band has catered to Lindsey as well? They've allowed him to control nearly every aspect of the music for the better part of 40 years.

[dreamsunwind]

You don't think that the band has catered to Lindsey as well? They've allowed him to control nearly every aspect of the music for the better part of 40 years.

He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.

[Sugar Mouse]

He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

[Dr.Brown]

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

Again, only one member of the band views him as "exhausting" and has refused to record with him. This one member of the band has now been given carte blanche because, when push comes to shove, Mick knows which side his bread is buttered on and that's all the money-grubber really gives a sh!t about.

[Sugar Mouse]

This is the most common sense response I have seen on any section of this board about this issue. Thank you. They all contributed to this...but the fact remains that it is over and we probably will never know all the reasons. Time to move on!!

Agreed John. This site sometimes seems like an alternative reality seen only through the eyes of Lindsey Buckingham. Perhaps the website should change its name to Lindsey's Ledge.

[sodascouts]

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.

[Sugar Mouse]

So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.

Where exactly did I say that Lindsey isn't a good producer? I said that Lindsey is a producer that likes to control every detail and likes to take a long time to produce his records and some people (Stevie) find this exhausting.

[dreamsunwind]

Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.

I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/126930416217/is-it-true-lindsey-played-all-the-instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!

[Storms123]

I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/126930416217/is-it-true-lindsey-played-all-the-instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!

Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"

[Sugar Mouse]

Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"

Again, Lindsey is a very talented producer who has created some of the best albums of all-time. I'm sure Stevie would be the first to recognize this and how much Lindsey has helped make her songs all they can be.

That being said, Lindsey is an incredibly focused, driven, detail oriented, perfectionist producer whose projects often take many months and are exhausting.

Stevie recognizes the genius in his work, but simply hasn't wanted to put herself through the exhaustion that such work entails.

[dreamsunwind]

Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"

Doesn't she not even like that version of Twisted? She released like 2 other 'solo' versions of it and neither was nearly as good. I have NOOOO idea why she doesn't like it. Everyone I know who's listened to it loves it. It's really one of her best recent-ish things that she's done. The production is so good and her voice sounds amazing.
I so agree that she really was lucky to have him. I was listening to the Tom Petty version of Gypsy recently and the Bella Donna outtake of it and it's so crazy to hear how different the song could have sounded. It was obviously still a nice song and everything but it could've been so forgettable. The production on the final version was just stunning and really made it a classic for her.

[Storms123]

Again, Lindsey is a very talented producer who has created some of the best albums of all-time. I'm sure Stevie would be the first to recognize this and how much Lindsey has helped make her songs all they can be.

That being said, Lindsey is an incredibly focused, driven, detail oriented, perfectionist producer whose projects often take many months and are exhausting.

Stevie recognizes the genius in his work, but simply hasn't wanted to put herself through the exhaustion that such work entails.

I believe the point people, not that I want to speak for others, but I will speak for myself, The fact 1 person, who is in a band (that alone speaks for the expectation of all parties) possibly couldn't work with one member, and everyone else in said band could...that person should leave. And in the scenarios laid forth by you and others in this thread--that person is Stevie. You've alluded that most of the posters are so focused, myopically almost, on the Lindsey POV, perhaps acknowledge you are myopically focused on the other. And maybe it's because you are just besides yourself with excitement that "your guy" is taking they guy that was booted's place.

[Storms123]

Doesn't she not even like that version of Twisted? She released like 2 other 'solo' versions of it and neither was nearly as good. I have NOOOO idea why she doesn't like it. Everyone I know who's listened to it loves it. It's really one of her best recent-ish things that she's done. The production is so good and her voice sounds amazing.
I so agree that she really was lucky to have him. I was listening to the Tom Petty version of Gypsy recently and the Bella Donna outtake of it and it's so crazy to hear how different the song could have sounded. It was obviously still a nice song and everything but it could've been so forgettable. The production on the final version was just stunning and really made it a classic for her.

I had not heard she didn't like that version. I think it's beautiful.
Gypsy, under Lindsey's production, really is a masterpiece for FM. I watched the Dance the other night, and the version of Gypsy during that tour is amongst my favorites.

[mitzo]

I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/126930416217/is-it-true-lindsey-played-all-the-instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!

The blog post also says Lindsey threatened to quit during Tusk if he did not get his way. Genius he may be, and he certainly was the best producer for Stevie's stuff, but I just do not get how he is seen as a blameless victim of Stevie's evil ways.

[dreamsunwind]

I had not heard she didn't like that version. I think it's beautiful.
Gypsy, under Lindsey's production, really is a masterpiece for FM. I watched the Dance the other night, and the version of Gypsy during that tour is amongst my favorites.

I think it was during the promotion for 24KG, she was explaining the whole album being old songs and old demos rerecorded and she said how she picked songs that never made it to albums and songs that got recorded but she didn't like how they came out so she wanted to redo them. Something along those lines. And Twisted was on the album so I assume that meant she didn't like it? She even released the demo version of it on her Enchanted boxset way back but then she said it was so people could hear the non-movie soundtrack version of it.

[Storms123]

The blog post also says Lindsey threatened to quit during Tusk if he did not get his way. Genius he may be, and he certainly was the best producer for Stevie's stuff, but I just do not get how he is seen as a blameless victim of Stevie's evil ways.

I don't think he's blameless at all, I do believe this "split" is 100% about S&L. For me--given all I've witnessed out of these 5 over the years, it's making allowances for one member (touring/recording/delays, etc) and not for the other (s). The premise of this being, Lindsey was fired due to conflicts with the tour schedule. But I don't believe he's a blameless victim, but based upon the facts as we have them, and were presented by the band, I do believe he was wronged here.

[dreamsunwind]

The blog post also says Lindsey threatened to quit during Tusk if he did not get his way. Genius he may be, and he certainly was the best producer for Stevie's stuff, but I just do not get how he is seen as a blameless victim of Stevie's evil ways.

I know it says that, but it also says it was just a bluff that he hoped would work (and it did). Also that Stevie did the same thing later on.
But I don't think he's some blameless victim, especially not back in the day, and I don't think Stevie has any evil ways, I actually love Stevie even though I'm mad at her but I just think the way this was handled was just wrong and it shows a double standard in the band. These days, it's undeniable that Stevie gets allowed to do basically anything (record/not record when she wants, tour or delay tours when she wants) but Lindsey gets thrown out over a scheduling issue and (allegedly) because Stevie doesn't want to deal with him bugging her about recording an album anymore? It's just not right, I don't understand how anyone can think that's right and to me at least, it's so upsetting that this is how the band is going to go out.

[Sugar Mouse]

I believe the point people, not that I want to speak for others, but I will speak for myself, The fact 1 person, who is in a band (that alone speaks for the expectation of all parties) possibly couldn't work with one member, and everyone else in said band could...that person should leave. And in the scenarios laid forth by you and others in this thread--that person is Stevie. You've alluded that most of the posters are so focused, myopically almost, on the Lindsey POV, perhaps acknowledge you are myopically focused on the other. And maybe it's because you are just besides yourself with excitement that "your guy" is taking they guy that was booted's place.

I'm a huge Finn fan. The entire Finn family. And I'm a huge Mac fan. I love Lindsey's work but I also love the songs of Christine, Stevie, Danny, Bob, and Peter. Been a Mac fan since the early 70's. Not sure why one can't love all of it and not just focus on Lindsey's perspective like most do here.

[Sugar Mouse]

The blog post also says Lindsey threatened to quit during Tusk if he did not get his way. Genius he may be, and he certainly was the best producer for Stevie's stuff, but I just do not get how he is seen as a blameless victim of Stevie's evil ways.

Of course ... each of the band members has their share of problems and responsibility for issues the band has encountered over the years. Read any of the books on Fleetwood Mac and you'll see tons and tons of questionable behavior by each of the members including Lindsey. You'd never know that on this site where it's 99% Stevie's fault and Mick's fault and Lindsey is an innocent victim of Mick's greed and Stevie's anger. Of course, that's bunk. They're all imperfect people. That's why this site should be called Lindsey's Ledge which is a more accurate description. It's a Lindsey Buckingham site rather than a Fleetwood Mac site.

[sodascouts]

But I don't think he's some blameless victim, especially not back in the day, and I don't think Stevie has any evil ways, I actually love Stevie even though I'm mad at her but I just think the way this was handled was just wrong and it shows a double standard in the band. These days, it's undeniable that Stevie gets allowed to do basically anything (record/not record when she wants, tour or delay tours when she wants) but Lindsey gets thrown out over a scheduling issue and (allegedly) because Stevie doesn't want to deal with him bugging her about recording an album anymore? It's just not right, I don't understand how anyone can think that's right and to me at least, it's so upsetting that this is how the band is going to go out.

Amen. It is a complete double standard, even if you take the band's narrative at face value.

Stevie's presentation of herself as a selfless team player in that CBS interview, someone who always respects what the "majority" of the band wants ("I'm not the boss"), and holding herself up as a supposed contrast to Lindsey... it was grotesquely hypocritical.

[SaidSomething]

I haven't been here in sooo long. Tina, Kristin, Nathan...we should touch base. I think I posted about how Hollywood came sneeking back and caught me off guard. Long story short my stage name has been making the rounds on gossip blogs about me and someone famous that I dated. A bunch of unauthorised nude photos and videos were all over the net with titles that pointed to old characters I played on a soap, sitcom, film etc...I got in really good shape and my best friend tagged me for some projects we had written over the years. I don't watch TV. Never really did except Charlies Angels, 6 million dollar man and Joan Rivers on the tonight show...I think I only watched maybe 3 or 4 shows that I did...it kind of freaked me out. Anyway, an agent at William Morris rememberd my friend and I from the 90s and had a "plot based lightly scripted docu-drama" for us based on a story of ours that she saw recently. My friend was/is very famous...she's one of the dumb blond icons that still works. Anyway...what it really meant was it was a ****ing reality show. Things got messy early on in the 6 months of meetings, networks bidding, casting, pre production etc. Our lawyers looked at the proposed treatment...and flipped the contracts over his head saying please dont do this...anyway, what I know now is the cruel editing, fox news style mis quotes or out of context audio bytes...marketing, lunch boxes, wine, catch phrases etc...they pretty much made bank and put 2 dollars in a card to say thank you when it was done and we were bleeding haha. An old aquaintance was on the Bevery Hills Housewife show...she was a child star that her weird family cashed in on from her mother being like a pimp and 2 sister sibling rivalry thats still going on. she was Happy as **** to leave showbiz for her family but, like her mother that she nursed until she died she became an alcoholic...your past can sneak back and **** with you as an adult. Anyway, I watched in horror at what they did to my friend...how she was treated and the show goes on. Dr Phil said she was a bad mother...I politely ****ed up Dr Phil with his dickless lack of patients being humans with feelings.

I way digress. yes all of Fleetwood Mac is guilty but, Stevie was ALWAYS the one to speak for the rest of the band...he has a ****ed up temper, he geeks out on stuff the rest of the band hates...then the time and his endless word salad bull**** interlect on stage and in the studio...he went out of his way to taunt Stevie...eye rolls, talking over her, fighing over sound engineer etc...in the end if they just set up a stage and started working on songs together OR just ****ing doing a song the way the song writer wanted it. AND Silver Springs was Lindseys original idea to hijack and keep it off the album. Mick told Stevie what Lindsey was doing behind her back and that was probably one of the worst last straws to this very day. He seethes with either jealousy or he's just a ****ing prick that wants his way and they gave it to him with all that studio time with him doing stuff he could have done on his own records...Fleetwood Mac was its best with a guitar a bass a keyboard and some drums...and the singers and those haromonies. Metaphoric huh? Beautiful deadly harmonies.

[SaidSomething]

regarding Stevie Nicks being a diva...she's 70 years old!!! Another wave of music artists, fashion icons, philanthopy sing her praises...they just seem to want to be her...can you think of another rock star or famous person that so many mimick? She's got a big head...and a lot of friends, young and old that tap her for another generation of music collaboration with her....non stop sold out tours...big or small arenas she's works the long haul job on the road. So now the young people know her and like when we saw her...or when we heard her...we were like, whoooa who's she...turn that up!!! They bring her on Netwok primetime talk shows even recently with that black haired cute guy from the dragon movie or whatever. Lady Antebellum etc...so, her memory is 70 years old...and I'm sure the coke damage mixes things up...anyway, people seem mesmerized by her stories...and dude, they are so far out! She's worked with every genre of music from RnB, country, rock, unknown artists, hair bands, whatever beyonce is etc...

I don't think she or any of the band wanted to wait...they were waiting for her to come back and like always, she did...and tango-esque Lindsey did a Nellie Olson stamping his foot and flouncing out of the door.

girl, bye

[sodascouts]

I way digress. yes all of Fleetwood Mac is guilty but, Stevie was ALWAYS the one to speak for the rest of the band...he has a ****ed up temper, he geeks out on stuff the rest of the band hates...then the time and his endless word salad bull**** interlect on stage and in the studio...he went out of his way to taunt Stevie...eye rolls, talking over her, fighing over sound engineer etc...in the end if they just set up a stage and started working on songs together OR just ****ing doing a song the way the song writer wanted it. AND Silver Springs was Lindseys original idea to hijack and keep it off the album. Mick told Stevie what Lindsey was doing behind her back and that was probably one of the worst last straws to this very day. He seethes with either jealousy or he's just a ****ing prick that wants his way and they gave it to him with all that studio time with him doing stuff he could have done on his own records...Fleetwood Mac was its best with a guitar a bass a keyboard and some drums...and the singers and those haromonies. Metaphoric huh? Beautiful deadly harmonies.

Well, say what you like about Lindsey fans, I don't think I've seen a post as bad as this anywhere else on the so-called "Lindsey ledge" about Stevie. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong - but link to it, please, because some folks have a bad habit of claiming things are "all over the place" without having any evidence of them actually existing.

If I am wrong, I will apologize.

[sue]

Christine would never say a bad word about anyone


I’m not so sure about this, Christine can look out for herself and is pretty forthright.
She was a member of a all bloke blues band before she joined an all male FM.
Maybe she doesn’t have to say bad words about anyone to get her point across.

[Dr.Brown]

A lot of projection going on with these posts. Wow! :eek:

[sodascouts]

I’m not so sure about this, Christine can look out for herself and is pretty forthright.
She was a member of a all bloke blues band before she joined an all male FM.
Maybe she doesn’t have to say bad words about anyone to get her point across.

I daresay she's said a few less than complimentary things about Bob Welch since she was instrumental in his exclusion from the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame.

No one in this band is an angel.

[sleepless child]

I'm a huge Stevie fan and I hate to see everyone blaming her for Lindsey's being let go. I don't know if we have even gotten the full story. It still doesn't seem right to fire him because of solo work and touring. Something could have been worked out and should have. I hope we get the full story down the road. I'm mad at Stevie for telling us how her and Lindsey are great and then we hear or read how much they dislike each other and it's all an act. Maybe she just couldn't do it anymore. But I always got the feeling that Lindsey really tried to get along with Stevie. I think the only way we'll know the truth is if someone gets ahold of Stevie's journals and Lindsey does an interview. Between the two, maybe we'll get the truth.

[secondhandchain]

I think it was during the promotion for 24KG, she was explaining the whole album being old songs and old demos rerecorded and she said how she picked songs that never made it to albums and songs that got recorded but she didn't like how they came out so she wanted to redo them. Something along those lines. And Twisted was on the album so I assume that meant she didn't like it? She even released the demo version of it on her Enchanted boxset way back but then she said it was so people could hear the non-movie soundtrack version of it.

How could she have not liked the first Twister version? It was great and you can tell Lindsey added that new part to the outro that is very catchy. There is more then enough proof to show that she is the one to blame. And don't ask me why I'm on this board. I was a HUGE fan of SN for years. But like others have said, her worst traits are now her dominant ones. It's not pretty.

[gldstwmn]

An old aquaintance was on the Bevery Hills Housewife show...she was a child star that her weird family cashed in on from her mother being like a pimp and 2 sister sibling rivalry thats still going on. she was Happy as **** to leave showbiz for her family but, like her mother that she nursed until she died she became an alcoholic...your past can sneak back and **** with you as an adult. Anyway, I watched in horror at what they did to my friend...how she was treated and the show goes on. Dr Phil said she was a bad mother...I politely ****ed up Dr Phil with his dickless lack of patients being humans with feelings.



Kim Richards? Please pass on my best wishes for her continued health and sobriety. She has lived quite a life and seems to revel in being a grandmother. Good for her.

[gldstwmn]

regarding Stevie Nicks being a diva...she's 70 years old!!! Another wave of music artists, fashion icons, philanthopy sing her praises...they just seem to want to be her...can you think of another rock star or famous person that so many mimick? She's got a big head...and a lot of friends, young and old that tap her for another generation of music collaboration with her....non stop sold out tours...big or small arenas she's works the long haul job on the road. So now the young people know her and like when we saw her...or when we heard her...we were like, whoooa who's she...turn that up!!! They bring her on Netwok primetime talk shows even recently with that black haired cute guy from the dragon movie or whatever. Lady Antebellum etc...so, her memory is 70 years old...and I'm sure the coke damage mixes things up...anyway, people seem mesmerized by her stories...and dude, they are so far out! She's worked with every genre of music from RnB, country, rock, unknown artists, hair bands, whatever beyonce is etc...

I don't think she or any of the band wanted to wait...they were waiting for her to come back and like always, she did...and tango-esque Lindsey did a Nellie Olson stamping his foot and flouncing out of the door.

girl, bye

You're funny. :thumbsup: I'm loving this post.

[Nathan]

I haven't been here in sooo long. Tina, Kristin, Nathan...we should touch base. I think I posted about how Hollywood came sneeking back and caught me off guard. Long story short my stage name has been making the rounds on gossip blogs about me and someone famous that I dated. A bunch of unauthorised nude photos and videos were all over the net with titles that pointed to old characters I played on a soap, sitcom, film etc...I got in really good shape and my best friend tagged me for some projects we had written over the years. I don't watch TV. Never really did except Charlies Angels, 6 million dollar man and Joan Rivers on the tonight show...I think I only watched maybe 3 or 4 shows that I did...it kind of freaked me out. Anyway, an agent at William Morris rememberd my friend and I from the 90s and had a "plot based lightly scripted docu-drama" for us based on a story of ours that she saw recently. My friend was/is very famous...she's one of the dumb blond icons that still works. Anyway...what it really meant was it was a ****ing reality show. Things got messy early on in the 6 months of meetings, networks bidding, casting, pre production etc. Our lawyers looked at the proposed treatment...and flipped the contracts over his head saying please dont do this...anyway, what I know now is the cruel editing, fox news style mis quotes or out of context audio bytes...marketing, lunch boxes, wine, catch phrases etc...they pretty much made bank and put 2 dollars in a card to say thank you when it was done and we were bleeding haha. An old aquaintance was on the Bevery Hills Housewife show...she was a child star that her weird family cashed in on from her mother being like a pimp and 2 sister sibling rivalry thats still going on. she was Happy as **** to leave showbiz for her family but, like her mother that she nursed until she died she became an alcoholic...your past can sneak back and **** with you as an adult. Anyway, I watched in horror at what they did to my friend...how she was treated and the show goes on. Dr Phil said she was a bad mother...I politely ****ed up Dr Phil with his dickless lack of patients being humans with feelings.

I way digress. yes all of Fleetwood Mac is guilty but, Stevie was ALWAYS the one to speak for the rest of the band...he has a ****ed up temper, he geeks out on stuff the rest of the band hates...then the time and his endless word salad bull**** interlect on stage and in the studio...he went out of his way to taunt Stevie...eye rolls, talking over her, fighing over sound engineer etc...in the end if they just set up a stage and started working on songs together OR just ****ing doing a song the way the song writer wanted it. AND Silver Springs was Lindseys original idea to hijack and keep it off the album. Mick told Stevie what Lindsey was doing behind her back and that was probably one of the worst last straws to this very day. He seethes with either jealousy or he's just a ****ing prick that wants his way and they gave it to him with all that studio time with him doing stuff he could have done on his own records...Fleetwood Mac was its best with a guitar a bass a keyboard and some drums...and the singers and those haromonies. Metaphoric huh? Beautiful deadly harmonies.

Good to see you Jim.

[Sugar Mouse]

I'm a huge Stevie fan and I hate to see everyone blaming her for Lindsey's being let go. I don't know if we have even gotten the full story. It still doesn't seem right to fire him because of solo work and touring. Something could have been worked out and should have. I hope we get the full story down the road. I'm mad at Stevie for telling us how her and Lindsey are great and then we hear or read how much they dislike each other and it's all an act. Maybe she just couldn't do it anymore. But I always got the feeling that Lindsey really tried to get along with Stevie. I think the only way we'll know the truth is if someone gets ahold of Stevie's journals and Lindsey does an interview. Between the two, maybe we'll get the truth.

Hope we do get both sides of the story at some point. I'm sure there's plenty of responsibility on both sides of the aisle. Not sure we'll get an accurate interpretation here on Lindsey's Ledge but I do hope both sides speak out in more detail this summer before the tour starts.

[AliP]

I'm mad at Stevie for telling us how her and Lindsey are great and then we hear or read how much they dislike each other and it's all an act. Maybe she just couldn't do it anymore. But I always got the feeling that Lindsey really tried to get along with Stevie. I think the only way we'll know the truth is if someone gets ahold of Stevie's journals and Lindsey does an interview. Between the two, maybe we'll get the truth.

I agree, I think Lindsey really tried to get along with Stevie. In fact every song on Extended Play - Sad Angel, It Takes Time and Miss Fantasy paint a picture of an unhappy Stevie. Maybe Lindsey was sensing something like this was going to happen 5 years ago?

[dreamsunwind]

I agree, I think Lindsey really tried to get along with Stevie. In fact every song on Extended Play - Sad Angel, It Takes Time and Miss Fantasy paint a picture of an unhappy Stevie. Maybe Lindsey was sensing something like this was going to happen 5 years ago?

I think it wasn't as much about trying get along for the purpose of getting along as it was about getting her to record. I think he reaaaaaaally wanted to get her to record and was very much trying to butter her up to lure her back in the studio. I was reading/listening to a lot of the interviews with him from around 2011-2013 and it's obvious how much he was trying for that. He talked a lot about how happy he knew she was when she made her album with Dave Stewart all nice and cozy at her house and that it was a really good experience for her. Then shortly after that he had her come to HIS house for the EP and he made it all nice and cozy. He even said he wrote Sad Angel about that exact thing, her getting back to 'fight' the FM battle. Even little things like David Wilde said he added Stephanie to his solo setlist because he thought she might like it etc. Basically I think he was trying to kiss her butt to get her to do an album but it didn't work and I'm sure he started getting very frustrated.

http://www.buckinghamnicks.info/quotes/2016/3/13/lindsey-msn-entertainment-12062012
Here's an interesting one from before the 2013 tour for example, look at what he says here:

Q: "Yes, but you said you wanted to do an album first. Stevie told me she wanted to do an album but people aren’t interested in them anymore, so you have just the two songs for now."

A: “Oh no, that’s not true. I don’t know what she’s talking about. She just didn’t come with any songs. She didn’t want to do an album. I said ‘Stevie, what do you think?’ and she said ‘No, I don’t want to do that.’ So I didn’t push it. I’ve got all this stuff sitting around. I’ll get John (McVie) and Mick (Fleetwood) over here from Hawaii and do a low-key, under-the-radar situation, producer-wise, just see what happens. We cut like seven, eight tracks with Mitchell Froom and the stuff turned out great. We did it all in the proper keys for Stevie’s range, and for her to drop in her parts. My hope she would hear some of this stuff and love it and get drawn in. She wasn’t really prepared to love it, so she didn’t. She’s starting to love it more now, now that she’s on a couple. She felt sort of put-upon and that’s fair enough I guess. She had her idea of not wanting to do it and here I was getting John and Mick over, doing this rah-rah thing. Come on guys!”

Q: I have a feeling this interview is going to get the tour canceled before it begins...

A: “No, no, no, not at all. But I think probably she felt put-upon in the sense she didn’t have a lot of material sitting around to bring. Maybe there was a sense of pressure on her part. I was talking to Mick yesterday. At some point we’re going to be very glad we did this material. Something’s gonna happen with this. What that is remains to be seen. If we only use a couple of these for now, that’s fine. Stevie still needs to come with something. Who’s to say? I’m not pushing for an album. Down the line, maybe. I think it would be great. Stevie’s gotta be happy, she’s gotta be comfortable and that’s really the bottom line."

[AliP]

I think it wasn't as much about trying get along for the purpose of getting along as it was about getting her to record. I think he reaaaaaaally wanted to get her to record and was very much trying to butter her up to lure her back in the studio. I was reading/listening to a lot of the interviews with him from around 2011-2013 and it's obvious how much he was trying for that. He talked a lot about how happy he knew she was when she made her album with Dave Stewart all nice and cozy at her house and that it was a really good experience for her. Then shortly after that he had her come to HIS house for the EP and he made it all nice and cozy. He even said he wrote Sad Angel about that exact thing, her getting back to 'fight' the FM battle. Even little things like David Wilde said he added Stephanie to his solo setlist because he thought she might like it etc. Basically I think he was trying to kiss her butt to get her to do an album but it didn't work and I'm sure he started getting very frustrated.
[/B]


That you for posting those quotes. That is very interesting. It seems like he tried so hard to make her happy. Makes me think that what happened may be much more than we realize. Why would she make comment about wanting to spend rest of her life happy? Also makes me wonder that a change of scenery and perhaps change of producer she had with Dave Stewart, he was able to pull something out of her that Lindsey has not. In Your Dreams is my favorite album of hers and has some of my favorite songs of hers.

[dreamsunwind]

That you for posting those quotes. That is very interesting. It seems like he tried so hard to make her happy. Makes me think that what happened may be much more than we realize. Why would she make comment about wanting to spend rest of her life happy? Also makes me wonder that a change of scenery and perhaps change of producer she had with Dave Stewart, he was able to pull something out of her that Lindsey has not. In Your Dreams is my favorite album of hers and has some of my favorite songs of hers.

You're welcome!
I think he really tried for a while but she remained so adamantly against recording that he started getting fed up and more problems began again. And then with the BuckVie album/tour, I don't think she was crazy about the fact that that happened and then Tom's death and everything.
I'm not a big fan of some of Dave's production on IYD but it's very obvious she loved the album and loved making it. I think she just felt very comfortable in the environment with him, which is remarkable considering that it took them a full year. Even if she and Lindsey were getting along splendidly I don't think she could ever feel that comfortable and happy around him for an entire year because of all the dramatic past between them.
That's why I wonder what the heck happened to Dave and why it seems like he's not even relevant in her world anymore. She was soooo crazy about him and raved and raved about how much she loved working with him. And now she hasn't mentioned him in years as far as I know.

[David]

Where exactly did I say that Lindsey isn't a good producer? I said that Lindsey is a producer that likes to control every detail and likes to take a long time to produce his records and some people (Stevie) find this exhausting.
He would drive me up the wall if I had to work with him in the studio, to be sure. But he wasn't merely a producer for that band. He was a songwriter and the lead guitarist, and he was the only one in the band who had much expertise with orchestration. He was George Martin and Paul McCartney and possibly John Lennon all rolled into one. He was the only one in the band who spent painstaking hours mastering recording technology, studying classic tracks by taking them apart and observing their components, and exploring new technology (like the Fairlight) for use with Fleetwood Mac. None of the other four were interested in sonics. It's natural that the band turned over a lot of the studio crafting to him, certainly the reins for building demos into finished tracks. He was the perfect svengali for Fleetwood Mac's non-live approach.

But for Mirage, he had to back off or dial it all down. They told him there would be no more band fragmentation in the building of tracks, no more recording his own bass or drums or keyboards at home and then using those recordings in the finished product.

For Tango, he was forced by circumstance to exert more control than on Mirage. Stevie and John weren't around, and Mick was baked all day. Only Christine and Richard worked with him on a sustained basis to get that album finished, and they all had to employ all manner of tricks to fake the sound of a whole band participating fully.

It's important to remember that Stevie has had major problems with several of her solo producers. Many of those relationships have gone sour for some reasons we know and many we don't: Iovine, Glyn Johns, Rupert Hine, etc. I think Stevie has a sensitive gag reflex in the studio, maybe because she's not as self-confident as she could be.

[aleuzzi]

Lindsey was/is a control freak in the studio. But that's the kind of person you need in order to get the sound from good to distinctive. Each of FM's albums under his direction has a unique SOUND, even if the sound differs from record to record. I don't always love his choices but they serve a purpose: studio-wise, FM with LB doesn't sound like a run-of-the-mill band. That's something.

One of the things I've always hated about LB's Tusk songs is that he doesn't allow the other two singers to sing on them. The Tusk tour rehearsal version of "Save Me A Place" is exciting because of their harmonies. As much as his 1000 voice dubs sounds cool, it sounds so much better with the full band participation. I think the same way about the instrumentation on "What Makes You Think..."

I don't think any of the band has ever played on any version of "Big Love."

[AliP]

One of the things I've always hated about LB's Tusk songs is that he doesn't allow the other two singers to sing on them. The Tusk tour rehearsal version of "Save Me A Place" is exciting because of their harmonies. As much as his 1000 voice dubs sounds cool, it sounds so much better with the full band participation. I think the same way about the instrumentation on "What Makes You Think..."

I don't think any of the band has ever played on any version of "Big Love."

Yes, I agree with that. It was like his songs on Tusk were his solo songs with no other input from any other member. I remember that was the first thing I noticed when I first listened to the Tusk album. Then, of course, on CMV and SN songs he's singing background, sharing vocals etc. That's fine because I love the Tusk album. But it's apparent on Tusk he was already in the "solo" state of mind.

[dreamsunwind]

He would drive me up the wall if I had to work with him in the studio, to be sure. But he wasn't merely a producer for that band. He was a songwriter and the lead guitarist, and he was the only one in the band who had much expertise with orchestration. He was George Martin and Paul McCartney and possibly John Lennon all rolled into one. He was the only one in the band who spent painstaking hours mastering recording technology, studying classic tracks by taking them apart and observing their components, and exploring new technology (like the Fairlight) for use with Fleetwood Mac. None of the other four were interested in sonics. It's natural that the band turned over a lot of the studio crafting to him, certainly the reins for building demos into finished tracks. He was the perfect svengali for Fleetwood Mac's non-live approach.

But for Mirage, he had to back off or dial it all down. They told him there would be no more band fragmentation in the building of tracks, no more recording his own bass or drums or keyboards at home and then using those recordings in the finished product.

For Tango, he was forced by circumstance to exert more control than on Mirage. Stevie and John weren't around, and Mick was baked all day. Only Christine and Richard worked with him on a sustained basis to get that album finished, and they all had to employ all manner of tricks to fake the sound of a whole band participating fully.

It's important to remember that Stevie has had major problems with several of her solo producers. Many of those relationships have gone sour for some reasons we know and many we don't: Iovine, Glyn Johns, Rupert Hine, etc. I think Stevie has a sensitive gag reflex in the studio, maybe because she's not as self-confident as she could be.

This was so well said.

[sasja]

Yes, I agree with that. It was like his songs on Tusk were his solo songs with no other input from any other member. I remember that was the first thing I noticed when I first listened to the Tusk album. Then, of course, on CMV and SN songs he's singing background, sharing vocals etc. That's fine because I love the Tusk album. But it's apparent on Tusk he was already in the "solo" state of mind.

I always have had the feeling that he was already going in a quite more modern, experimental and fresh and new direction, by the time it was time to make Tusk. He was already listening to The Clash, Talking Heads, Punk, Two-Tone, all the great musical stuff that was happening starting in the late seventies in England and Germany (and maybe in the US too, I cannot speak from experience there, not yet living here then). And it influenced his writing and orchestration I am certain. I also think the rest of the band was not ready to, or into, venturing outside their borders. So it may well be that that caused the huge disconnect, and maybe the others had no idea what to add to those songs. It's interesting that Lindsey did still sing background on theirs, ( and of course he played guitar :] ) but I sometimes wonder if he did it also to enhance cohesiveness between his songs and theirs.
In any event, Tusk is one of my favorite albums of all time, by any artist, dichotomy or no. It's fresh sounding and not at all dated to this day. IMHO.:blob1:

[Straightback]

One of the things I've always hated about LB's Tusk songs is that he doesn't allow the other two singers to sing on them. The Tusk tour rehearsal version of "Save Me A Place" is exciting because of their harmonies. As much as his 1000 voice dubs sounds cool, it sounds so much better with the full band participation. I think the same way about the instrumentation on "What Makes You Think..."

I don't think any of the band has ever played on any version of "Big Love."

Absolutely agree. I remember when I got the "Tusk" super deluxe edition and hearing "I Know I'm Not Wrong (11/2/78 version)" with Stevie doing harmonies and I was blown away that that was not the version to make it onto the album. So much more interesting and energized.

[sasja]

Absolutely agree. I remember when I got the "Tusk" super deluxe edition and hearing "I Know I'm Not Wrong (11/2/78 version)" with Stevie doing harmonies and I was blown away that that was not the version to make it onto the album. So much more interesting and energized.

Oh boy, and I am of the opinion that Stevie wrecks that great song completely, and her vocals are not at all suited to that song. It just goes to show you, different tastes make the world go round :xoxo:

[SisterNightroad]

He was the perfect svengali for Fleetwood Mac's non-live approach.
I don't want to sound evil because it's not my intention, but Svengali was a negative (and possibly anti-semite) character.

[louielouie2000]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.

[Sugar Mouse]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.

I can respect what you wrote that even if Lindsey wanted to put off the tour for a year the band shouldn't have fired him. That's the core issue. I think it's highly likely that Lindsey did want to put off the tour for a long while once the band nixed his idea of Lindsey touring at the same time as a Fleetwood Mac tour. The core issue is whether the band should have fired him if they had a tour scheduled and Lindsey decided to back out. You believe that they should have cancelled the tour.

[sodascouts]

I think it wasn't as much about trying get along for the purpose of getting along as it was about getting her to record. I think he reaaaaaaally wanted to get her to record and was very much trying to butter her up to lure her back in the studio. I was reading/listening to a lot of the interviews with him from around 2011-2013 and it's obvious how much he was trying for that. He talked a lot about how happy he knew she was when she made her album with Dave Stewart all nice and cozy at her house and that it was a really good experience for her. Then shortly after that he had her come to HIS house for the EP and he made it all nice and cozy. He even said he wrote Sad Angel about that exact thing, her getting back to 'fight' the FM battle. Even little things like David Wilde said he added Stephanie to his solo setlist because he thought she might like it etc. Basically I think he was trying to kiss her butt to get her to do an album but it didn't work and I'm sure he started getting very frustrated.

http://www.buckinghamnicks.info/quotes/2016/3/13/lindsey-msn-entertainment-12062012
Here's an interesting one from before the 2013 tour for example, look at what he says here:

Q: "Yes, but you said you wanted to do an album first. Stevie told me she wanted to do an album but people aren’t interested in them anymore, so you have just the two songs for now."

A: “Oh no, that’s not true. I don’t know what she’s talking about. She just didn’t come with any songs. She didn’t want to do an album. I said ‘Stevie, what do you think?’ and she said ‘No, I don’t want to do that.’ So I didn’t push it. I’ve got all this stuff sitting around. I’ll get John (McVie) and Mick (Fleetwood) over here from Hawaii and do a low-key, under-the-radar situation, producer-wise, just see what happens. We cut like seven, eight tracks with Mitchell Froom and the stuff turned out great. We did it all in the proper keys for Stevie’s range, and for her to drop in her parts. My hope she would hear some of this stuff and love it and get drawn in. She wasn’t really prepared to love it, so she didn’t. She’s starting to love it more now, now that she’s on a couple. She felt sort of put-upon and that’s fair enough I guess. She had her idea of not wanting to do it and here I was getting John and Mick over, doing this rah-rah thing. Come on guys!”

Q: I have a feeling this interview is going to get the tour canceled before it begins...

A: “No, no, no, not at all. But I think probably she felt put-upon in the sense she didn’t have a lot of material sitting around to bring. Maybe there was a sense of pressure on her part. I was talking to Mick yesterday. At some point we’re going to be very glad we did this material. Something’s gonna happen with this. What that is remains to be seen. If we only use a couple of these for now, that’s fine. Stevie still needs to come with something. Who’s to say? I’m not pushing for an album. Down the line, maybe. I think it would be great. Stevie’s gotta be happy, she’s gotta be comfortable and that’s really the bottom line."

So this is the monster who deserved to be fired because of the horrible way he was treating Stevie in the studio?

I'm sure the people characterizing Lindsey as currently being unyielding in the studio are taking note that their recriminations are unsupported by facts and will refrain from characterizing him that way in the future, thereby demonstrating their integrity.

[sleepless child]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.

Very well said. My thoughts exactly.

[AliP]

The core issue is whether the band should have fired him if they had a tour scheduled and Lindsey decided to back out. You believe that they should have cancelled the tour.

But was the tour scheduled? I thought there were plans but no schedule. I think if he was backing out after a scheduled tour then serious contractual repercussions would result.

[dreamsunwind]

But was the tour scheduled? I thought there were plans but no schedule. I think if he was backing out after a scheduled tour then serious contractual repercussions would result.

I think Mick implied that Lindsey was hesitating in signing the contract. However Christine said (during interviews around the time of the BM album) that an upcoming FM tour was a given and they had all "signed off on the dotted line".

I wondered that too. If he hadn't signed off yet, would they still have been able to book shows normally if he wasn't a total given? And if he had signed off, couldn't he take legal action against them now? Unless there's a clause in the contract which said that they're allowed to kick anyone out regardless.

[AnthonyMI]

i think the title of this thread should be "Stevie The Goat, The Root Reason" not "Stevie as scapegoat". heeehawww. ;-)

But seriously. Its quite clear who got this ball rolling, made the stink, is having the 3/4 life crisis, and can't handle Tom's loss, is the Queen B....

[aleuzzi]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.

Yes. And Yes. Oh--and yes.

[lovethemac1]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.


Beautifully explained! Thank you.

[mitzo]

Beautifully explained! Thank you.

I wanted a final Rumours five album too. But gave up on that ages ago. What on earth would have kept you clinging to that fantasy? Stevie was never going to do it, it has been clear. So I do not think the rage people are expressing is because of that. I think Lindsey was the best producer for Stevie and I have complained about her solo work as a result. But it has been obvious for many years she will not record with him again. And I am not angry.

[jbrownsjr]

To me, assigning blame to Stevie is simply a matter of deduction. We know that Chris was not party to the decision to fire Lindsey- she was simply informed of it after the fact. I cannot fathom John having any other opinion than deferring to Mick. We know that Mick is ALWAYS desperate to tour, and that he's also very close with Stevie. We also know Mick will always side with whatever keeps the band going and money flowing, which also means he'll bend to Stevie's wishes- she's the cash cow. Stevie's very rigid 3 years between FM tours rule has been drilled into everyone's heads, too... and it's been 3 years. Finally, Stevie's issues with Lindsey are very well documented. To me, it's plain Stevie and Lindsey came to an impasse... and Stevie won the game of chicken.

As to exactly what the impasse was, I think that's irrelevant. If it was because Lindsey wanted to put off a FM tour for a year so he can do a solo album/tour- so what? FM has spent most of the 21st century waiting around for Stevie. If Lindsey wanted to sprinkle in solo dates with the FM tour- again, why would they care? His 21st century audiences number in the hundreds... it's not like his shows would have a measurable impact on FM's bottom line. If Lindsey was insisting on a new FM album before touring... again, why should that equate to his firing? Clearly Stevie is the only one averse to recording... why should she be able to fire Lindsey when she's in the minority?

And I'll reiterate I am not now nor have I ever been primarily a Lindsey fan. Stevie has always been my favorite FM member... but my love of FM by far eclipses my love of her solo work, ten to one. I'm no misogynist, either (like most gay men, I prefer the company of women). Nor am I an Enquirer-reading Trumpite (I'm a registered Democrat). All of these things have been hurled at those of us angry about Lindsey's firing. All that most people on this board wanted was a final album from the Rumours 5... which is why we're so upset by this whole thing, end of story. We won't get that now, and it's very clear to us who is to blame.

Yes... yes... yes... yes...

[markolas]

Well, the misogyny comes in with the constant references to Stevie as a c-word, b-word, a hag, etc. Christine hasn’t been immune to it either. And the mods don’t care. It’s really distasteful.

[markolas]

I will also say that, while I still love Stevie and FM and listen to their music often, I’m at a point where that’s all I really care about. I’m not that interested in their interpersonal relationships or their personal lives anymore and I have no interest in assigning blame to Stevie or anyone. Once I got over the initial shock, it just...didn’t matter to me that much.

“With all due respect, Miss, I have my own problems.”

[annabellee]

I will also say that, while I still love Stevie and FM and listen to their music often, I’m at a point where that’s all I really care about. I’m not that interested in their interpersonal relationships or their personal lives anymore and I have no interest in assigning blame to Stevie or anyone. Once I got over the initial shock, it just...didn’t matter to me that much.

“With all due respect, Miss, I have my own problems.”

This about sums it up for me. Thanks Markolas. I keep checking in, but my expectations are low.

[bwboy]

I will also say that, while I still love Stevie and FM and listen to their music often, I’m at a point where that’s all I really care about. I’m not that interested in their interpersonal relationships or their personal lives anymore and I have no interest in assigning blame to Stevie or anyone. Once I got over the initial shock, it just...didn’t matter to me that much.

“With all due respect, Miss, I have my own problems.”

Where's that quote from, Markolas?

I am so sick of the 5 posters on the Rumours board who only post the same nasty things, and not just about FM but about other posters, too. God I am so glad I have a happy life and can keep Lindseys firing in perspective. They are miserable and want to make people who don't feel the same way miserable. Not everyone, some express their anger and frustration appropriately and can even engage in conversation about other FM related topics, but there are a couple. They complain about everything (set list, price of tickets, how often they tour, no new album, why they didn't play a certain festival, or why did they play at a different one) but don't dare say a word about Lindsey or they throw a tantrum.

I am a fan of the music, I don't care that much about their personal lives. I don't know the names of their agents, managers, assistants, family members, and I don't care to. Lindsey was fired, I know they had a reason to fire him or they wouldn't have done it. One could say he screwed them over in 1987 by deserting the band, and now one could say they screwed him over in 2018 by firing him. They don't believe he was fired because of problems with the upcoming tour, but Lindsey hasn't said why he was fired. And I don't consider what he said at the fundraiser about 'certain factions' of the band to be an explanation. It was a very vague statement that could just as well have been his thoughts on the Bay of Pigs or the Boston Tea Party. If I was fired for no reason other than Stevie was jealous of an album he made with Christine (an album that flopped just like Stevie's 24 Karat did) then I would scream it from the rooftop. There is a reason he hasn't said why he was fired, and if he took a payoff to keep his mouth shut like some of his fans implied, then that makes him look even worse. Which I doubt he did, anyway.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but as the 5 LB fans have posted repeatedly, I have a right to post how I'm feeling, too. :thumbsup:

[Sugar Mouse]

Where's that quote from, Markolas?

I am so sick of the 5 posters on the Rumours board who only post the same nasty things, and not just about FM but about other posters, too. God I am so glad I have a happy life and can keep Lindseys firing in perspective. They are miserable and want to make people who don't feel the same way miserable. Not everyone, some express their anger and frustration appropriately and can even engage in conversation about other FM related topics, but there are a couple. They complain about everything (set list, price of tickets, how often they tour, no new album, why they didn't play a certain festival, or why did they play at a different one) but don't dare say a word about Lindsey or they throw a tantrum. :thumbsup:

Yes - these five posters have made the Rumours board unbearable with their constant venomous, expletive-laden posts aimed at the remaining Mac members and members of the forum. It's kind of sad and pathetic that they continue to unleash their anger and call it "grief". Apparently, they believe that their "grief" is a free ticket to attack everyone outside of their little circle.

[sodascouts]

Oh dear. It seems we have started to make this a discussion of other PEOPLE rather than band members.

This is a bad idea, as it invites them to respond in a defensive fashion, and then you respond back, and then they respond... all so tiresome.

And doing this vague thing about "five posters" causes a problem you may not have anticipated. Since there are more than five people who are unhappy with this situation, more than five people will be wondering - if not assuming outright - that you are referring to them. You thus alienate more than five with your disparagements.

Poor form, gentlemen.

I encourage those who feel they may be one of the five fire-flamed to refrain from asking "is it me" and just not worry about it. I also wouldn't bother with any "counter-attacks." We really don't want pages of this, do we?

I encourage bwboy and Sugar Mouse to refrain from populating any more threads with discourses on the perceived personal failings of these five posters whom they find so loathsome.

Back to the topic at hand:

I wanted a final Rumours five album too. But gave up on that ages ago. What on earth would have kept you clinging to that fantasy? Stevie was never going to do it, it has been clear. So I do not think the rage people are expressing is because of that. I think Lindsey was the best producer for Stevie and I have complained about her solo work as a result. But it has been obvious for many years she will not record with him again. And I am not angry.

I did maintain a fantasy that somehow they would overcome their difficulties and work together again... part of that stemmed from the EP. Meager as it was, it showed that the possibility existed. Plus, Stevie changes her mind. We all know that. "That's a woman's right, they say." Was I crazy to think she would change her mind about recording when she's changed her mind so often in that past?

Heck, a little tiny place in my heart still hopes after some more distance from Tom Petty's death, she will change her mind about having Lindsey in the band and the five fireflies will be back together once more. I have not completely written off Stevie.

[bwboy]

Oh dear. It seems we have started to make this a discussion of other PEOPLE rather than band members.

This is a bad idea, as it invites them to respond in a defensive fashion, and then you respond back, and then they respond... all so tiresome.

I encourage those who feel they may be one of the five fire-flamed to refrain from asking "is it me" and just not worry about it. I also wouldn't bother with any "counter-attacks." We really don't want pages of this, do we?

I don't think the 5 posters care what I think about them, so I doubt any of them would ask "is it me." Besides, it's really easy to figure out who my post was referring to- the people who post they hate FM and call them names and yet post repeatedly on a forum designed for FM fans. They hate FM, they've posted they hate FM, and they continue to post they hate FM. Maybe there could be another forum on the Ledge devoted to "people who hate FM?"

But really, I got it off my chest so I can let it go. It's sad to see a few folks leave the board, but I can see why. Missy in particular seemed like a nice person. She treated everybody with respect. A message board for fans of FM has been taken over by 5 people who continually post nasty and negative threads. Telling other posters to shut up, or to leave the Ledge, or to not post in "their" forum, doesn't that invite "counter attacks?" Or are people supposed to not respond to those comments?

As the 5 say, I have a right to express my feelings. The difference is, I just won't do it several times a week on several threads like they do. It's too bad they seem determined to insult members to the point that they quit the board.

[sodascouts]

I don't think the 5 posters care what I think about them, so I doubt any of them would ask "is it me."
True; it's often people seeking to be reassured that you're NOT talking about them who ask!

Besides, it's really easy to figure out who my post was referring to- the people who post they hate FM and call them names and yet post repeatedly on a forum designed for FM fans. They hate FM, they've posted they hate FM, and they continue to post they hate FM.
Well, the truth is that I really am not 100% sure who rounds out your five. Only two are obvious to me. There are more than 3 others who have posted that they hate FM, have expressed that they have a right to grieve, etc. I daresay I am not the only one who finds it ambiguous.

Telling other posters to shut up, or to leave the Ledge, or to not post in "their" forum, doesn't that invite "counter attacks?"

Yes it does, and it has. It's too late to stop all of that. This time, though, I thought maybe we could cut it off before it had a chance to get going.

[sasja]

The a propos -ness of the fireflies lyrics in this situation just slays me. I am sorry, I just had to say it :) but now I'll be good, and hush and mosey on over to where I belong again. :]

[MoonSister75]

As the 5 say, I have a right to express my feelings. The difference is, I just won't do it several times a week on several threads like they do. It's too bad they seem determined to insult members to the point that they quit the board.

Thanks for your post bwboy. Yes you absolutely have the right to express your feelings about what is happening here.
And for me that is the saddest part, that members are being insulted to the point of leaving. I haven't known it to be this bad since I joined 5 years ago :(
I just wish everyone could calm down a bit and stop hurling abuse, life can be difficult enough without coming here and getting more of the same :shrug:

[markolas]

Where's that quote from

Years ago, a fan sent an email to what she thought was Mariah Carey’s personal email account. The person pretending to be Mariah wrote back “With all due respect, Miss, I have my own problems.” It ended up making the rounds of internet gossip sites and Mariah Carey eventually issued a statement and apology to the fan saying that it wasn’t her. I might be getting some of the details wrong, but that’s basically it. I might have even heard about it here on The Ledge.

So now I say that whenever someone is bothering me with their bs. :lol:

[secondhandchain]

Lb confirmed at his show that his firing was “ all Stevie’s doing”. Yhe person who originally INSISTED that she be included in the band. She’s the absolute worst.

[vivfox]

Lb confirmed at his show that his firing was “ all Stevie’s doing”. Yhe person who originally INSISTED that she be included in the band. She’s the absolute worst.


Fa la la la la, la la la la

Old News

But u can't let it go:laugh:

[StevieandChris]

Lb confirmed at his show that his firing was “ all Stevie’s doing”. Yhe person who originally INSISTED that she be included in the band. She’s the absolute worst.

😂 LOL 😝 :] he is hardly going to confess to his role at his own meet and greet! :blob2::]

[secondhandchain]

If it were the other way around I’d be mortified at what Lindsey has done.

[StevieandChris]

If it were the other way around I’d be mortified at what Lindsey has done.

If it happened before the last two years, you mean?