Lindsey: Rock’s biggest jerk or misunderstood genius

[tothegypsy]

From the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/04/11/lindsey-buckingham-formerly-of-fleetwood-mac-rocks-biggest-jerk-or-misunderstood-genius/

[TrueFaith77]

Mark my words. It begins...

[gldstwmn]

Mark my words. It begins...

And so it begins. Once the dust settles the truth will come out. :nod:

[bombaysaffires]

Just to post the whole thing for folks:


Lindsey Buckingham, formerly of Fleetwood Mac: Rock’s biggest jerk or misunderstood genius?

By Travis M. Andrews April 11 at 7:00 AM


It’s rare for Fleetwood Mac — a rock band formed in 1967 — to garner headlines in 2018. Still, the band was in the news not once but twice in as many weeks. Monday’s news that Lindsey Buckingham reportedly has been fired shook the rock community, earning eulogies and angry quips on Twitter.

There’s little question that the iconic band is losing a visionary musician (again) in Buckingham. But during a time when pop culture is reexamining its heroes, it’s important to remember that the guitarist and songwriter’s personal reputation is littered with allegations of controlling, belittling and even abusive behavior.

Rock-and-roll is often steeped in mythology, so, like any stories about the genre, it comes down to whom you choose to believe: the camp that believes he’s a misunderstood genius or the camp that believes he’s rock-and-roll’s premier jerk.

Many of the stories concerning Buckingham come from former romantic partners.

[ Lindsey Buckingham and Fleetwood Mac part ways — again. He was reportedly fired this time. ]

Buckingham and fellow bandmember Stevie Nicks might be the most famous star-crossed lovers since Romeo and Juliet, only their story ends with them playing in the same rock band and singing songs about each other. The dissolution of their years-long relationship added creative fuel to the writing and recording of 1977’s “Rumours,” Fleetwood Mac’s most successful album.

But tension existed between the two long before the breakup. The young lovers released a single, eponymous album as Buckingham Nicks two years before joining Fleetwood Mac. The couple appear nude on the album cover, something Nicks reportedly was highly uncomfortable with.

The studio said it wanted a sexy cover, so Nicks “with her last hundred dollars bought a loose, filmy white blouse that exposed a little skin, figuring that would do it,” according to her biography, “Gold Dust Woman” by Stephen Davis.

It wasn’t sexual enough for the photographer, who asked her to remove it and bare her breasts for the camera. Nicks protested, calling herself prude and saying her family wouldn’t approve of the image.

The photographer pushed, and Buckingham eventually snapped, according to the book.

“Don’t be paranoid,” Buckingham yelled. “Don’t be a [expletive] child. This is art!”

Eventually, feeling “trapped” and “under pressure,” Nicks removed her shirt and bra for the shoot. “She looked like someone else,” Davis wrote. “She also looked tense.”

Nicks felt “mortified” by the cover, particularly when it hit shelves in 1973 and earned the disapproval of her father. She almost quit music at the age of 25.

“From the beginning, Lindsey was very controlling and very possessive,” Nicks said, according to the biography.

Things didn’t improve after their breakup. Buckingham wrote “Go Your Own Way” in 1976 about Nicks, even though Nicks had to help perform the song. The lyrics are full of vitriol, from the bluntly cruel (“Loving you isn’t the right thing to do”) to the character-questioning (“Packing up, shacking up’s all you wanna do”). Nicks was, of course, insulted.

“I very, very much resented him telling the world that ‘packing up, shacking up’ with different men was all I wanted to do,” Nicks told Rolling Stone. “He knew it wasn’t true. It was just an angry thing that he said. Every time those words would come out onstage, I wanted to go over and kill him. He knew it, so he really pushed my buttons through that. It was like, ‘I’ll make you suffer for leaving me.’”


Things grew worse. During a 1980 tour for “Tusk,” Buckingham allegedly mocked Nicks onstage, tried to trip her and, at one point, attempted to kick her. Singer Christine McVie was furious. She found Buckingham after the show and hit him.

“I think he’s the only person I ever, ever slapped,” McVie told Rolling Stone. “I actually might have chucked a glass of wine, too. I just didn’t think it was the way to treat a paying audience. I mean, aside from making a mockery of Stevie like that. Really unprofessional, over the top. Yes, she cried. She cried a lot.”

He later also threw “a Les Paul [guitar] at Nicks’ head during the show,” McVie and Nicks told the magazine.

Buckingham has claimed that he doesn’t remember the incidents.

While that tension only continued growing, both Buckingham and Nicks have said that it fuels their creative output.

“Relations with Lindsey are exactly as they have been since we broke up,” Nicks told Rolling Stone in 1981. “He and I will always be antagonizing to each other, and we will always do things that will irritate each other, and we really know how to push each other’s buttons. We know exactly what to say when we really want to throw a dagger in.”

Much darker and more concerning are the stories Buckingham’s next serious girlfriend, Carol Ann Harris, shared in her tell-all memoir, “Storms: My Life with Lindsey Buckingham and Fleetwood Mac.”

In one, Buckingham, needing to urinate while being driven to a hotel, unzipped his pants and evacuated himself into his boot, “as our driver looked on in horror,” according to the book.

In another, Harris hung out with the band’s crew members only to discover that a jealous Buckingham had ordered them not to talk to her. “And in their eyes I saw a sense of fear that I recognized — fear of Lindsey’s anger. Nobody wanted to be the target of Lindsey’s fury — and this I understood.”

Throughout the book, Buckingham is shown doing mountains of cocaine and verbally and physically abusing Harris, which she described in great detail.

In one instance, she wrote, he “raised his arm and hit me hard enough to knock me off the staircase into the wall.” In another, she wrote, he grabbed a fistful of her hair, got in a car and drove down the driveway, dragging her across the pavement.

Eventually, Harris claimed, a doctor told her that she had to leave Buckingham for her own safety — so she did.

As with any memoir, it’s difficult to assess the validity of these stories. They certainly contrast wildly with a 1984 Rolling Stone profile titled — and this is not a joke — “Lindsey Buckingham, Lonely Guy,” in which Buckingham talked about how much he wanted a “wonderful, sensitive, soul-mate girl.” This was during the “fairly barren” period after his relationships with Nicks and Harris ended.

The profile painted Buckingham as a musical genius who spends most of his time in the studio, trying to “break down preconceptions about what pop music is” and “struggling to be original” — but also as someone who worried “visibly about being the good host.”

Some problematic details cracked through in the piece, though.

Take Buckingham’s comments on Harris: “At first, she was just another conquest.”

And, even though in that very profile, Harris said Buckingham’s solo record about their failed relationship (“Go Insane”) made her “angry” and “sad” and was “upsetting,” the rocker said he doesn’t regret making it.

”I didn’t have too many second thoughts, mainly because it was either that or go to a shrink,” Buckingham told the magazine. ”I know that sounds a little flippant. I think it was something that had to be addressed. People who write things that mean something, usually they’re a little too personal for somebody else. That’s a risk that has to be taken.”

The only thing that is certain is that Fleetwood Mac has always been a pressure cooker.

To wit: Criticism has been levied not just against Buckingham but all the members of the band. Grammy-winning producer Ken Caillat, who worked on “Rumours,” once said in an interview that after the record was released, he and the crew felt like “survivors of the Titanic or something.”

“You feel like you’re family, and you’re not a family. Fleetwood Mac was not generous ‘parents.’ They’re pretty selfish; so many people that were part of the family have since been discarded,” he said, adding, “They’re all so self-centered and egotistical that they don’t think about anyone.”

Buckingham’s recent departure from the band could be for a number of reasons — but it wouldn’t surprise anyone if that pressure cooker finally exploded.

Again.

[Macfan4life]

The Stevie/Lindsey feud is both of them. Stevie was no angel either. I used to think Lindsey was such a jerk for leaving the band hanging in 1987. He really pissed me off. I totally forgive him for that. The crap he put up with during Tango is insane. Lindsey shelved his solo project to pull Mick out of bankruptcy. Mick was buying drugs in his driveway. Stevie was showing up late and drunk. I don't blame him for leaving at all now. I don't understand why so many paint Stevie as some helpless victim. Stevie is a very powerful woman. She has one of the most successful rock singers in the music business. I see Stevie as no victim as I would say Lindsey is jerk. Of course both Stevie and Lindsey are jerks at times. Christine took way more abuse from John and there is no drama between them because they want it that way. Why these 2 can never move on is quite the study. Some would say they never got over the break up which means they are still in love :eek:

[ryan4136]

The title is an either/or. The article.... Not so much

[bombaysaffires]

I believe he has indeed behaved quite badly in the past, and that's on him to deal with.

That said, she stayed in a relationship (working) with him for DECADES after this, and perpetuated romantic images of herself with him both onstage (hugging, kissing, etc) and in publicity photos-- in band photos right up until now she holds his hand, drapes her arm around him, etc.

So why perpetuate closeness with your abuser? He wasn't forcing it. She CHOSE it because it made her money. She had options-- she had a hugely successful solo career that allowed her to never work with him again. Heck, she even sent him her demos when she got stuck and asked him to bail her out. (good example: soldier's angel)

eta: I see this as the beginning of damage control from someone's side.

[ryan4136]

Ever watch Judge Judy?

You’ll get one partner suing for some reason, and JJ will ask “how long did you stay with this person after the loan before suing them “. The partner will inevitably say 6 months or a year or three years whatever..... JJ will come back with a “then you didn’t really care if you got that money back, and you wouldn’t be suing if you hadn’t broke up.....forget about it”

That’s the way I feel with a lot of these LB stories. Especially Carol Ann “ I still post pictures of Lindsey weekly on Facebook” Harris.

[bombaysaffires]

Ever watch Judge Judy?

You’ll get one partner suing for some reason, and JJ will ask “how long did you stay with this person after the loan before suing them “. The partner will inevitably say 6 months or a year or three years whatever..... JJ will come back with a “then you didn’t really care if you got that money back, and you wouldn’t be suing if you hadn’t broke up.....forget about it”

That’s the way I feel with a lot of these LB stories. Especially Carol Ann “ I still post pictures of Lindsey weekly on Facebook” Harris.

yeah. co-dependence.

[Tango]

Much darker and more concerning are the stories Buckingham’s next serious girlfriend, Carol Ann Harris, shared in her tell-all memoir, “Storms: My Life with Lindsey Buckingham and Fleetwood Mac.” . . .

In another, she wrote, he grabbed a fistful of her hair, got in a car and drove down the driveway, dragging her across the pavement. . . .

As with any memoir, it’s difficult to assess the validity of these stories.


The Harris book claims Christine witnessed the car/driveway event. And yet Christine toured behind Buckingham-McVie with this "monster." How can she justify touring with him if he was a monster? I wonder if Christine will eventually be in a spot where she will be pressed as to the "validity" of some of this backlog. How will Christine handle it. She is the one that wrote, (relating to John):

Why not think about times to come?
And not about the things that you've done?
If your life was bad to you
Just think what tomorrow will do


"Yesterday's gone." There was a time when yesterday could be somewhat washed away. But not in this day of the internet: Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.

People are fickle. This drama is not even close to being over. A lot of people could be hurt. I don't relish any of it. I wish none of this happened. Didn't it seem "more better" (sic) when we were all unaware and just listened to the music?

[BLY]

Didn't it seem "more better" (sic) when we were all unaware and just listened to the music?



In one word....YES!

[gldstwmn]

Didn't it seem "more better" (sic) when we were all unaware and just listened to the music?

Yes but the drama is the music. There is no separating them especially now in the age of Twitter, Instagram, etc. Christine and John are probably thanking their lucky stars that their issues never blew up like this.

[mitzo]

Both a musically gifted character and a scary angry abusive jerk. I think the latter is way got him booted from FM. It catches up with you, you know.

[aleuzzi]

How sad that Lindsey's wife and children have to see, hear, and read media speculation as to his character.

Another issue: By all accounts, Lindsey was at the very least controlling and hurtful. But basing an article on two books of questionable merit is pretty awful journalism.

The PR wars have begun again. But this time, given the current cultural climate and a national movement aimed at the correction of the mistreatment of women, this story will get uglier, no matter how true or distorted it is.

[Storms123]

Turning this into part of "#metoo is insulting. Stevie and Lindsey have got beyond their issues on this a long time ago.

[Fannymac]

The Harris book claims Christine witnessed the car/driveway event. And yet Christine toured behind Buckingham-McVie with this "monster." How can she justify touring with him if he was a monster? I wonder if Christine will eventually be in a spot where she will be pressed as to the "validity" of some of this backlog. How will Christine handle it. She is the one that wrote, (relating to John):

Why not think about times to come?
And not about the things that you've done?
If your life was bad to you
Just think what tomorrow will do


"Yesterday's gone." There was a time when yesterday could be somewhat washed away. But not in this day of the internet: Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.

People are fickle. This drama is not even close to being over. A lot of people could be hurt. I don't relish any of it. I wish none of this happened. Didn't it seem "more better" (sic) when we were all unaware and just listened to the music?

Christine DEFINITELY witnessed the car/driveway episode....they all did. And when Mick's book came out and mentioned it and Lindsey said he made the whole thing up just to sell books, both Christine AND Stevie wanted to go to the press and say "No....this happened!" (It was Mick, however, who said "No....we know what happened, and that's all that matters.")
That said....a lot of these stories/events took place 30-35 years ago (maybe longer in some cases), when Lindsey clearly had a serious drug and alcohol problem. I really think being married and a dad has changed/mellowed him. Hatchet stories like this are pointless.

[mitzo]

Turning this into part of "#metoo is insulting. Stevie and Lindsey have got beyond their issues on this a long time ago.

People never really get over abuse. Especially if it flares up again years later. Lindsey is no different from other abusers with anger issues, creative genius or not.

[iamnotafraid]

Stevie's tits, titts, teats, breast etc...story sounds so lame
at this point. I would believe she wanted to keep them
covered up except for the photographic proof we have
from all the years past the Buckingham Nicks cover.

At this point I wish she would keep them covered.

[aleuzzi]

People never really get over abuse. Especially if it flares up again years later. Lindsey is no different from other abusers with anger issues, creative genius or not.

If, in fact, Lindsey is an abuser. There’s no doubt he had anger issues that might even have turned violent. Certainly Stevie’s reactions to him for the last several years point to trauma. But I’m wondering what the contexts are for all of this. I’m guessing Christine wouldn't have toured with him this past year if she saw him continually being abusive towards Stevie. So my guess—whatever that’s worth—is that at worst he was once mentally and possibly occasionally physically abusive to her but has since, through counseling or whatever, grown. But working alongside him must bring up all of those old feelings in her all the time. This is just a guess, obviously.

[elle]

From the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/04/11/lindsey-buckingham-formerly-of-fleetwood-mac-rocks-biggest-jerk-or-misunderstood-genius/

2 articles in WaPo, 2 days in a row, is that a first for either FM or LB? and the actual article just about Lindsey this time around.

[dreamsunwind]

This article cites the Davis bio, which has almost universally bad reviews from anyone who follows Stevie or Fleetwood Mac.
It literally got Stevie's birthday wrong.

[tothegypsy]

Stevie's tits, titts, teats, breast etc...story sounds so lame
at this point. I would believe she wanted to keep them
covered up except for the photographic proof we have
from all the years past the Buckingham Nicks cover.

At this point I wish she would keep them covered.

Obviously Stevie's body doesn't exist to please you, and is her's to do with as she pleases...but I honestly can't recall another topless photo from Stevie's career, beyond Buckingham Nicks. Is there one?

[iamnotafraid]

I honestly can't recall another topless photo from Stevie's career, beyond Buckingham Nicks. Is there one?

There was a thread in the Nicks section that
showed way more than the Buckingham Nicks
cover ever did. Even including the outtakes
from that session.

I would respect her (her story) if there wasn't
overwhelming photographic proof that she enjoys
showing her ____ off.

The poor Stevie routine doesn't work on me.

[tothegypsy]

There was a thread in the Nicks section that
showed way more than the Buckingham Nicks
cover ever did. Even including the outtakes
from that session.

I would respect her (her story) if there wasn't
overwhelming photographic proof that she enjoys
showing her ____ off.

The poor Stevie routine doesn't work on me.

To be clear, any decisions she made later in her career don't retroactively change what she was feeling during the Buckingham Nicks photo shoot.

[Missy]

I haven't been here in a long time but have to say this - there have been too many people who have described this behaviour by Lindsey, with witnesses present as well, for it all to be made up.

He's a brilliant guitar player and musical genius, but he's also been a terrible abuser.

You can't just say a woman deserved to be beaten up just because she was being annoying or difficult. Nothing justifies that sort of behaviour. I can't believe people seem to be suggesting it here? It's the sort of thinking that keeps women trapped for years in dangerous, abusive relationships - because they think 'Oh it was my fault, I set him off...'

He may have calmed down a bit now but can still be prickly at times and people who have experienced abuse can still have 'flashbacks' many years later that are traumatic. Unless you've been through it yourself you don't know how it can screw with your head.

We want to compare this with Christine and John McVie? They had a difficult breakup but I don't think I've ever seen anybody say that he did what Lindsey did.

We probably won't get one more full Mac tour or album. For God's sake it's sad maybe but not the end of the world! At this stage of their lives, they can choose to do what they see fit, with or without FM.

[FuzzyPlum]

There was a thread in the Nicks section that
showed way more than the Buckingham Nicks
cover ever did. Even including the outtakes
from that session.

I would respect her (her story) if there wasn't
overwhelming photographic proof that she enjoys
showing her ____ off.

The poor Stevie routine doesn't work on me.


Got to be fair to Stevie and challenge you there...
Stevie has always been relatively modest regarding her body compared to most female performers. Yeah there was a thread showing some cleavage shots (most of them from late 80's/early 90's when she definitely did assentuate her chest) but she's never put her boobies fully on display. She's rarely worn short skirts.

It would be wrong to paint her as somebody who likes to flaunt her body.

[MaryLiz2]

We probably won't get one more full Mac tour or album. For God's sake it's sad maybe but not the end of the world! At this stage of their lives, they can choose to do what they see fit, with or without FM.

That's where I'm at with this. I was shocked at the news (but at the same time...kind of surprised they made it 20 years post The Dance together). I may roll my eyes over the fact that in even in their 70's this band hasn't mellowed enough to just get along...but by the same token they're in their 70's and can --and should be able to- do whatever the heck they want.

[krrrby]

I think Stevie lives in a fantasy on stage where the personality Lindsey delivers to Stevie on stage is what makes her happy. She cherishes those moments with him as good times. Off stage I feel is a very different story - that's where their real personalities still come at each other.

They tried their best to contain it in the Destiny Rules documentary but they eventually broke out into a fight...and who knows how many fights off-camera they had together.

I think if Stevie loved him SO much, that she would have ran to him during The Dance era - but knowing that she did not speaks louder than her words. There was a reason she didn't want to go back to him.

Now I don't think Lindsey is a monster but I think the image of what he is based on his past has been portrayed. Some fans feel that this departure is karma coming around full circle from the last time he left.

But will we ever really know the reason? I'm sure Stevie will give a speech about it on every show when she tells them how many shows they've done and how many minutes she talks in it.

I love them all as musicians, but damn.

[sodascouts]

I posted this in the duplicate thread. If the two threads are ever merged, this post will show up twice, so my apologies if that happens.. but since the threads haven't been merged yet, I though I would go ahead and repost my thoughts here.

------------

I hate that those stories from the Davis book are presented as coming from "her biography" as if Stevie supervised it - more accurately, it's a biography of her. We all know it is full of inaccuracies, third/fourth hand stories and questionable content. However, people will just swallow it all as truth... weak disclaimers located much further down in the article notwithstanding. I give more credence to the Harris book, although it too has its problems.

Lindsey certainly had some major issues. We know of two times he lost control and got physical with Stevie (The Tango fight and Tusk onstage). If it's true he was abusive with Carol Ann (and he was pretty messed up back then on alcohol so it's very possible), then I'm glad she got away from him. However she, and everyone else involved, have obviously forgiven him since they continued to work with him / speak fondly of him for years. As for his other faults outlined in the article, those just seem like typical moody entitled arteest crap.

I think the violent behavior is 30 years behind him now, and these kind of "hit pieces" serve no purpose.

One more thought: If you have to go back decades to find real evidence of Lindsey being a true jerk, that says something in itself. Shall we give him no credit at all for cleaning up his act? That's something the "biggest jerks" don't typically bother to do.

[elle]

i don't have time to read what everyone has said here right now, but just wanted to chime in - it's definitely interesting to see what the line is on twitter accompanying the actual headline when you click on the link. it basically says - hey we should re-examine this guy who's just been wronged by his band. :rolleyes:

that said, i think he's both, except biggest jerk is way out of line, just like he's not the most misunderstood genius either, not by a mile - but they didn't claim he was. on the other hand, there are tons of way bigger known jerks in rock, he's not even half way up the ladder. someone on facebook said maybe the headline should be changed to something like -

Rock's garden-variety jerk or misunderstood genius? :D

:angel:

[iamnotafraid]

Got to be fair to Stevie and challenge you there...
Stevie has always been relatively modest regarding her body compared to most female performers. Yeah there was a thread showing some cleavage shots (most of them from late 80's/early 90's when she definitely did assentuate her chest) but she's never put her boobies fully on display. She's rarely worn short skirts.

It would be wrong to paint her as somebody who likes to flaunt her body.


And I thought you always had my back.

Stevie might be modest now as age has a way
of doing that to most people. Now she actually
wears too much clothing. Layers and layers.

Back not too long ago it was a different story
and you know it was. I'm not arguing right and
wrong, just that she was always showing her "stuff".

My problem is that I'm tired of her lame old stories.
That day the Buckingham Nicks photos were taken
must have been the only day in the 70's that she
was a prude. Like I said, the pictures of her bare.
And by bare, well you know what I mean.

Nude - Stevie's got a problem with the one who
made her pose. Wasn't she of age?

Drugs - It was the doctors fault. He made her
take them.

Weight gain - Drugs and doctors. Hey wake up!
That was in the late 80's to mid 90's. There are
diets that work. If she'd stick to one.

Writers block - I guess that's Lindsey too. It's
got nothing to due with frying her brain on drugs
(the ones she took on her own).

on and on and on and on and on and on...

[bombaysaffires]

We want to compare this with Christine and John McVie? They had a difficult breakup but I don't think I've ever seen anybody say that he did what Lindsey did.


It's a dangerous assumption to think it never happened, though. We don't know what happened between them because they have never really talked about it. That's a far cry from "it never happened". We need to be aware of when we are drawing conclusions from facts or when we are making our own assumptions.

Someone also made the statement that Christine wouldn't have worked with Lindsey if she had seen him really abuse Stevie. She saw him really abuse Carol and still worked with him, so.....

We all make the mistake of thinking that everyday life within FM is like everyday life for us. It isn't... like it isn't for most rock stars. Especially during the white-hot famous years, FM got away with a lot of sh$t. If we take the famous quote by our now president (regardless of how we feel about him) he said, when talking about the people who are his fans, that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Ave (in NYC) and no one would care. Well, that's what being in the biggest band in the world is. You can behave ABOMINABLY and people don't call you out on it. You're famous, you're rich, you can be rude, obnoxious, demanding, waking helpers up at 2 am to go get you a sandwich, demanding the hotel repaint your room pink, punching your girlfriend, demanding the presidential suite, stealing people's spouses, whatever you want and no one calls you out on any of it. Ever.

What I'm saying is when people live with that going on around them everyday for DECADES, it just gets normalized. Things that would shock us and leave us standing with our mouths hanging open don't even get noticed anymore as unusual by them or people around them. Don't be fooled by how people are in interviews etc. That's a PERFORMANCE just like when onstage. Especially certain people in FM who are very, very clever at marketing themselves as a certain persona. As Chris said in RS about Stevie, she's all about herself, and she's made herself a 'brand'. Lindsey similarly markets himself as the misunderstood genius who does everything selflessly for everyone else and still they dump on him. Image management.

Got to be fair to Stevie and challenge you there...
Stevie has always been relatively modest regarding her body compared to most female performers. Yeah there was a thread showing some cleavage shots (most of them from late 80's/early 90's when she definitely did assentuate her chest) but she's never put her boobies fully on display. She's rarely worn short skirts.

It would be wrong to paint her as somebody who likes to flaunt her body.

I don't know where you've been for the last 40 years. She wore very very short skirts a lot in the late 70s/80s. Ever see her onstage with Bob Welch? Her very skimpy leotard tops and then camisole tops from the late 70s and into the 80s left absolutely NOTHING to the imagination. Why do you think Dave Letterman ran that short clip of her from I Can't Wait over and over and over again, leaning forward and shaking her maracas?? Again, there are the yarns people spin when doing interviews, and then, if you watch carefully, there's what they actually do.

[NotonRodeo]

Lindsey the biggest jerk in rock? Hah. He is not even the biggest jerk in Fleetwood Mac.

[elle]

Kristen's IG post about this - https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhfs0bhAAWD/?taken-by=kbchrush

kbchrush

Dear Washington Post,
“Rocks biggest jerk or misunderstood genius?”🤔 Neither. Just a great man with a raw deal. But thanks for asking. #istandwithlindsey #teamlindsey @washingtonpost

[TrueFaith77]

Kristen's IG post about this - https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhfs0bhAAWD/?taken-by=kbchrush

kbchrush

Dear Washington Post,
“Rocks biggest jerk or misunderstood genius?”🤔 Neither. Just a great man with a raw deal. But thanks for asking. #istandwithlindsey #teamlindsey @washingtonpost

She doesn't think he's a misunderstood genius?

[Missy]

It's a dangerous assumption to think it never happened, though. We don't know what happened between them because they have never really talked about it. That's a far cry from "it never happened". We need to be aware of when we are drawing conclusions from facts or when we are making our own assumptions.

Huh??? That's a reason that justifies equating them with each other? I think I know which side is really making 'dangerous assumptions'.

During Fleetwood Mac, what Stevie wore was the fashion for young women and she was always wearing something. Unlike in that photo where she was obviously naked with her boyfriend.

I might as well drop this board again though as obviously I'm never going to have the same understanding as the general consensus here. It's useless.

(I still regard Lindsey as a great artist/musician. But I won't let that put me into denial about his problems.)

[bombaysaffires]

Huh??? That's a reason that justifies equating them with each other? I think I know which side is really making 'dangerous assumptions'.

During Fleetwood Mac, what Stevie wore was the fashion for young women and she was always wearing something. Unlike in that photo where she was obviously naked with her boyfriend.

I might as well drop this board again though as obviously I'm never going to have the same understanding as the general consensus here. It's useless.

(I still regard Lindsey as a great artist/musician. But I won't let that put me into denial about his problems.)


who equated anything? All I said was you can't say what did or did not happen with the McVies because they've never said much about any of it. :shrug:

who denied Lindsey's problems? I've actually said I believe at some point he got physical with Stevie. :shrug:

Actually, Stevie didn't wear what was in fashion for everyone else.... she *set* the fashion, as she still does today. Designers copy her all the time.

The real issue was whether she was a prude. She's worn outfits that show off her assets, partied with the best of them, and had scores and scores of lovers. That doesn't suggest she's a prude (just a woman with healthy appetites). That's all anyone said-- her words versus her actions.

If you are indeed looking for a board with no differing opinions, this board will make you crazy. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

Kristen's IG post about this - https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhfs0bhAAWD/?taken-by=kbchrush

kbchrush

Dear Washington Post,
“Rocks biggest jerk or misunderstood genius?”🤔 Neither. Just a great man with a raw deal. But thanks for asking. #istandwithlindsey #teamlindsey @washingtonpost

That account is not verified. It could be anyone.

[gldstwmn]

Huh??? That's a reason that justifies equating them with each other? I think I know which side is really making 'dangerous assumptions'.

During Fleetwood Mac, what Stevie wore was the fashion for young women and she was always wearing something. Unlike in that photo where she was obviously naked with her boyfriend.

I might as well drop this board again though as obviously I'm never going to have the same understanding as the general consensus here. It's useless.

(I still regard Lindsey as a great artist/musician. But I won't let that put me into denial about his problems.)

+1000. There's no sexism and misogyny here. It doesn't exist I tell you! You're making it up! You're imagining it! Lalalalalalalala.....

[gldstwmn]

The real issue was whether she was a prude.

No it's not. It's a non issue. You want to talk about people's sexual forays? Let's talk about Lindsey allegedly cavorting with hookers and randoms on the Say You Will Tour. Don't believe me? Read the archives.

[gldstwmn]

I think we can safely assume that Lindsey is a jerk who is a misunderstood genius. He's grown up some and hopefully treats his family well but it's abundantly clear that most of the time he's a complete d=ck to Stevie. He is thought of as "difficult" by many in the industry. He may have wanted back in on the tour but with rehearsals underway and dates to be announced soon that's impossible. HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF. So over his canonization on this board. Get a grip people.

[dreamsunwind]

That account is not verified. It could be anyone.

She's not a celebrity or prominent enough to warrant having a verified account. And it is her real account, she's posted personal pictures of her with Lindsey and their children.

[dreamsunwind]

I think we can safely assume that Lindsey is a jerk who is a misunderstood genius. He's grown up some and hopefully treats his family well but it's abundantly clear that most of the time he's a complete d=ck to Stevie. He is thought of as "difficult" by many in the industry. He may have wanted back in on the tour but with rehearsals underway and dates to be announced soon that's impossible. HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF. So over his canonization on this board. Get a grip people.

You don't have to think he's a piece of cake to work with to think that the band shouldn't have done this to him. He certainly isn't the only difficult person in Fleetwood Mac.

[dreamsunwind]

No it's not. It's a non issue. You want to talk about people's sexual forays? Let's talk about Lindsey cavorting with hookers and randoms on the Say You Will Tour. Don't believe me? Read the archives.

"The archives" lol k sure.
The entire conversation going on here on both sides is out of line.

[aleuzzi]

It's a dangerous assumption to think it never happened, though. We don't know what happened between them because they have never really talked about it. That's a far cry from "it never happened". We need to be aware of when we are drawing conclusions from facts or when we are making our own assumptions.

Someone also made the statement that Christine wouldn't have worked with Lindsey if she had seen him really abuse Stevie. She saw him really abuse Carol and still worked with him, so.....

We all make the mistake of thinking that everyday life within FM is like everyday life for us. It isn't... like it isn't for most rock stars. Especially during the white-hot famous years, FM got away with a lot of sh$t. If we take the famous quote by our now president (regardless of how we feel about him) he said, when talking about the people who are his fans, that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Ave (in NYC) and no one would care. Well, that's what being in the biggest band in the world is. You can behave ABOMINABLY and people don't call you out on it. You're famous, you're rich, you can be rude, obnoxious, demanding, waking helpers up at 2 am to go get you a sandwich, demanding the hotel repaint your room pink, punching your girlfriend, demanding the presidential suite, stealing people's spouses, whatever you want and no one calls you out on any of it. Ever.

What I'm saying is when people live with that going on around them everyday for DECADES, it just gets normalized. Things that would shock us and leave us standing with our mouths hanging open don't even get noticed anymore as unusual by them or people around them. Don't be fooled by how people are in interviews etc. That's a PERFORMANCE just like when onstage. Especially certain people in FM who are very, very clever at marketing themselves as a certain persona. As Chris said in RS about Stevie, she's all about herself, and she's made herself a 'brand'. Lindsey similarly markets himself as the misunderstood genius who does everything selflessly for everyone else and still they dump on him. Image management.



I don't know where you've been for the last 40 years. She wore very very short skirts a lot in the late 70s/80s. Ever see her onstage with Bob Welch? Her very skimpy leotard tops and then camisole tops from the late 70s and into the 80s left absolutely NOTHING to the imagination. Why do you think Dave Letterman ran that short clip of her from I Can't Wait over and over and over again, leaning forward and shaking her maracas?? Again, there are the yarns people spin when doing interviews, and then, if you watch carefully, there's what they actually do.

I was one of the people who assumed Christine wouldn't have worked with Lindsey if he is as abusive as the article was suggesting. The key word is "is." I'm sure Christine had observed enough crap to make an ordinary person's head spin. The question I have is: is he STILL that way? Not saying one should forget the past or discount it because it happened a long time ago. But has he evolved? I'm assuming he has and that his firing is NOT because he acted in January 2018 the way he acted in 1977--or 1987.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Stevie's behavior suggests trauma. Real trauma. I get the sense--rightly or wrongly--that her current outlook on all-things Lindsey is distorted by the experiences of decades past. The Washington Post article does nothing to help eliminate the distortion. But then, who knows: maybe LB is STILL an abusive jerk. I'm just not entirely buying it.

[gldstwmn]

"The archives" lol k sure.
The entire conversation going on here on both sides is out of line.
Yet posts about Stevie are accepted without question. You are missing my point.

[gldstwmn]

She's not a celebrity or prominent enough to warrant having a verified account. And it is her real account, she's posted personal pictures of her with Lindsey and their children.

Anyone whose account is linked to a business that has more than 400 followers can be verified. It is not necessary to be a celebrity.

[gldstwmn]

She's not a celebrity or prominent enough to warrant having a verified account. And it is her real account, she's posted personal pictures of her with Lindsey and their children.
Anyone whose Insta links to a business can be verified. It's not necessary to be a celeb.

[dreamsunwind]

Anyone whose Insta links to a business can be verified. It's not necessary to be a celeb.

Maybe she feels no desire or great need to verify her mostly furniture account? For someone who's not a celeb or who doesn't have many impersonators running around it's just not that necessary. The point here is that you expressed doubt that the account (as well as her daughter's) is genuinely hers because it's not formally verified. However the personal posts prove that it is indeed her behind the account.

[wondergirl9847]

I get the sense--rightly or wrongly--that her current outlook on all-things Lindsey is distorted by the experiences of decades past.

Most of Stevie's MO is The Past. Lol Her stories and most of her songs are pretty much written...long, long ago. I am not bashing her, just saying. She is VERY nostalgic.

It's just so odd that they go through this cycle of love/hate...over and over. Confusing.

[gldstwmn]

Maybe she feels no desire or great need to verify her mostly furniture account? For someone who's not a celeb or who doesn't have many impersonators running around it's just not that necessary. The point here is that you expressed doubt that the account (as well as her daughter's) is genuinely hers because it's not formally verified. However the personal posts prove that it is indeed her behind the account.
Take a look at Twitter. There are some very interesting parody accounts for her.

[bombaysaffires]

oh gawd, how many different threads is this person going to go into and start a whole "we don't know if their accounts are verified" argument? this person has done this in multiple threads already.

if you don't want to accept they are real accounts, good for you. move on.

other people follow those threads and they are real. the one that is his wife's she posts all sorts of stuff about her house, her kids, her horse, her dog, her husband. including short vid clips of her husband working in bed. I mean, come on. It's fine to ask, but when told they've been vetting over the long haul you still demand to define the proof. Believe it or not, and move on.

[bombaysaffires]

No it's not. It's a non issue. You want to talk about people's sexual forays? Let's talk about Lindsey allegedly cavorting with hookers and randoms on the Say You Will Tour. Don't believe me? Read the archives.

oh dear. sigh. i could care less. it was the original poster's claim.

go troll elsewhere dear.

[dreamsunwind]

Take a look at Twitter. There are some very interesting parody accounts for her.

First of all there's quite a big difference between Twitter and Instagram. I'm aware there are parody accounts that are actually quite funny but extremely obviously a parody for anyone affiliated with FM and its members.
Kristen Buckingham does not have an actual public Twitter though as far as I am aware. What she uses is Instagram, and as far as I've ever seen there are no imitation accounts of her on Instagram that exist. If they ever existed she likely reported them and they were likely shut down.
Second of all you're still missing the point. YOU expressed doubt that her account on Instagram (and also Leelee's) was really her. People including myself responded to you to prove that it is, which the personal pictures and videos that shared that literally no other person could have make obvious.

[iamnotafraid]

who denied Lindsey's problems? I've actually said I believe at some point he got physical with Stevie. :shrug:



It's been awhile since I've read Mick's or CAH book.
But wasn't it said that Stevie started it? And I do
mean the physical part.

Stevie's not exactly Ronda Rousey, but if she hit him
or something similar to that first, then he had all the
right in the world to hit back.

If only Stevie's words were more reliable.

[rhiannondontgo]

I think we can safely assume that Lindsey is a jerk who is a misunderstood genius. He's grown up some and hopefully treats his family well but it's abundantly clear that most of the time he's a complete d=ck to Stevie. He is thought of as "difficult" by many in the industry. He may have wanted back in on the tour but with rehearsals underway and dates to be announced soon that's impossible. HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF. So over his canonization on this board. Get a grip people.

^ This. I don’t know about all Stevie’s fans but I & the ones i’m close with are acutely aware of the fact that she can be very difficult. If the tables were turned and FM said “listen, she’s too difficult so we just cannot tour anymore”, I would be disappointed but I wouldn’t be surprised or outraged. She’s deeply flawed but I love her art regardless. She is both a narcisstic diva and an incredibly talented rock & roll icon IMO.
Just like Lindsey is both a jerk and a genius. I honestly don’t know any hardcore LB fans in real life but it seems like the majority of the ones discussing this online are unwilling to accept that maybe he, a notoriously difficult guy, could have been complicit and played some part in the split.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t think there’s any one hero or villain here. Just 5 messy imperfect people who can’t quite get it together.

[bombaysaffires]

It's been awhile since I've read Mick's or CAH book.
But wasn't it said that Stevie started it? And I do
mean the physical part.

Stevie's not exactly Ronda Rousey, but if she hit him
or something similar to that first, then he had all the
right in the world to hit back.

If only Stevie's words were more reliable.

I mean besides the time where he left the band.

[bombaysaffires]

^ This. I don’t know about all Stevie’s fans but I & the ones i’m close with are acutely aware of the fact that she can be very difficult. If the tables were turned and FM said “listen, she’s too difficult so we just cannot tour anymore”, I would be disappointed but I wouldn’t be surprised or outraged. She’s deeply flawed but I love her art regardless. She is both a narcisstic diva and an incredibly talented rock & roll icon IMO.
Just like Lindsey is both a jerk and a genius. I honestly don’t know any hardcore LB fans in real life but it seems like the majority of the ones discussing this online are unwilling to accept that maybe he, a notoriously difficult guy, could have been complicit and played some part in the split.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t think there’s any one hero or villain here. Just 5 messy imperfect people who can’t quite get it together.

oh, many of us very much admit he can be an a**hole, and that he has behaved unacceptably in the past. and wouldn't blame Stevie for never forgetting it. I think he for sure made her life hell for a long, long time. I've been a huge Stevie fan since the 70s.

I think you might have missed the part where many, many of us have continually said, "something is missing from this story" as it has been told so far. The facts don't add up.

However, the credible sources who first told various people who've posted on here that this was coming (and then it came, just as they said it would) have also said that Stevie did in fact issue a "it's me or him" ultimatum. As all their facts have played out accurately so far, it seems reasonable to think they are being truthful about that point too.

So it leaves this gaping hole in our understanding of WTF would have happened to have triggered that kind of ultimatum at THIS point in time, after they have continued working together for 30-40 years after all the abuse and etc. :shrug:

People are speculating, because it's been told from credible sources that she was the one who forced a choice.

[gldstwmn]

From what I've read today it seems like Lindsey wanted to do a solo tour on Fleetwood Mac's off days. If any ultimatum was delivered I'd guess that it was one that was delivered by LB to FM. Let me do my solo thing or else. FM chose or else.

[dreamsunwind]

oh, many of us very much admit he can be an a**hole, and that he has behaved unacceptably in the past. and wouldn't blame Stevie for never forgetting it. I think he for sure made her life hell for a long, long time. I've been a huge Stevie fan since the 70s.

I think you might have missed the part where many, many of us have continually said, "something is missing from this story" as it has been told so far. The facts don't add up.

However, the credible sources who first told various people who've posted on here that this was coming (and then it came, just as they said it would) have also said that Stevie did in fact issue a "it's me or him" ultimatum. As all their facts have played out accurately so far, it seems reasonable to think they are being truthful about that point too.

So it leaves this gaping hole in our understanding of WTF would have happened to have triggered that kind of ultimatum at THIS point in time, after they have continued working together for 30-40 years after all the abuse and etc. :shrug:

People are speculating, because it's been told from credible sources that she was the one who forced a choice.

I really think that, while not forgotten, what happened in the 70s and 80s is in a totally different realm from today. Everyone made everyone's life hell back in those days. Lindsey was an asshole, Stevie was a diva, John was a drunk, Mick was a mess, Christine was annoyed at everyone. That's just how it was.
What happened now I whole heartedly believe is a business/scheduling issue that really went south. I don't think anything triggered anything. At this point in their lives I think they just want to make their money in the easiest way possible and Lindsey's wishes for his solo project was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

[gldstwmn]

I really think that, while not forgotten, what happened in the 70s and 80s is in a totally different realm from today. Everyone made everyone's life hell back in those days. Lindsey was an asshole, Stevie was a diva, John was a drunk, Mick was a mess, Christine was annoyed at everyone. That's just how it was.
What happened now I whole heartedly believe is a business/scheduling issue that really went south. I don't think anything triggered anything. At this point in their lives I think they just want to make their money in the easiest way possible and Lindsey's wishes for his solo project was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
It was Lindsey who delivered the ultimatum to FM. Not the other way around.

[Angel75]

It was Lindsey who delivered the ultimatum to FM. Not the other way around.

So you are saying the 'inside' sources who advised members of this board that he had been fired prior to the announcement due to SN delivering a you or me ultimatum were incorrect?!

Do you also have insider knowledge of this? It seems strange that his family reacted the way they did if that's the case :shrug::shrug:

[dreamsunwind]

So you are saying the 'inside' sources who advised members of this board that he had been fired prior to the announcement due to SN delivering a you or me ultimatum were incorrect?!

Do you also have insider knowledge of this? It seems strange that his family reacted the way they did if that's the case :shrug::shrug:

Of course they don't have insider knowledge. None of us can know exactly what happened but from everything I and MANY others heard and could read, if this ultimatum did happen, it was not Lindsey who issued it.

[gldstwmn]

So you are saying the 'inside' sources who advised members of this board that he had been fired prior to the announcement due to SN delivering a you or me ultimatum were incorrect?!

Do you also have insider knowledge of this? It seems strange that his family reacted the way they did if that's the case :shrug::shrug:
After everyone's ardent defense of Instagram I went and did some digging for myself and if the things I read are legit then yes I believe that this is what really happened. :o

[Angel75]

After everyone's ardent defense of Instagram I went and did some digging for myself and if the things I read are legit then yes I believe that this is what really happened. :o

So what was his ultimatum? How can he then be fired?

[gldstwmn]

Of course they don't have insider knowledge. None of us can know exactly what happened but from everything I and MANY others heard and could read, if this ultimatum did happen, it was not Lindsey who issued it.
He did. He was willing to tour under his terms only. Contractually I don’t think FM could have prevented it. So they said no.

[gldstwmn]

So you are saying the 'inside' sources who advised members of this board that he had been fired prior to the announcement due to SN delivering a you or me ultimatum were incorrect?!

Do you also have insider knowledge of this? It seems strange that his family reacted the way they did if that's the case :shrug::shrug:
I would hope his family would support him no matter what happened. That is what family is for.

[sodascouts]

Let's make our judgments based on source reliability.

Stevie issued an ultimatum according to Joe Compton, the man who took photographs on occasion for Tom Petty and posted on the Mike Campbell fan page. Has there been any secondary confirmation? Named sources only, please.

Lindsey issued an ultimatum according to....? Named sources only, please.

[sodascouts]

You know what? From what I understand, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't given a lot of time for people to respond - the above is seriously all we have in terms of verified information from named sources.

If it is true that there is no named source for the Lindsey ultimatum, while you can say you think that's what really happened, leading people to believe that you KNOW it's what happened by "correcting" them with your version of events is another matter. I mean it was gleaned from an unspecified number of nameless accounts on Instagram of all places!

Side note: Maybe I'm just old but that seems particularly bizarre to me. I thought people just posted selfies and pet photos on Instagram. I know the Buckinghams have posted comments about their family on there but I didn't realize a bunch of industry insiders were spilling secrets on there, too. Unless they are named, of course, and then I'm interested to hear who, and what exactly they said.

However, I'm also uncomfortable putting complete faith into the narrative about Stevie issuing an ultimatum when it only comes from one guy who heard it third hand. Yeah, he was right about Lindsey's firing, but you've heard of the game of telephone, right? Where the details get fudged?

That guy also threw out a lot of stuff he "heard" about Lindsey "from hanging around backstage" that I found a bit suspect.

I REALLY would like a named source to confirm Compton.

Do we have one?

[dreamsunwind]

You know what? From what I understand, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't given a lot of time for people to respond - the above is seriously all we have in terms of verified information from named sources.

If it is true that there is no named source for the Lindsey ultimatum, while you can say you think that's what really happened, leading people to believe that you KNOW it's what happened by "correcting" them with your version of events is another matter. I mean it was gleaned from an unspecified number of nameless accounts on Instagram of all places!

Side note: Maybe I'm just old but that seems particularly bizarre to me. I thought people just posted selfies and pet photos on Instagram. I know the Buckinghams have posted comments about their family on there but I didn't realize a bunch of industry insiders were spilling secrets on there, too. Unless they are named, of course, and then I'm interested to hear who, and what exactly they said.

However, I'm also uncomfortable putting complete faith into the narrative about Stevie issuing an ultimatum when it only comes from one guy who heard it third hand. Yeah, he was right about Lindsey's firing, but you've heard of the game of telephone, right? Where the details get fudged?

That guy also threw out a lot of stuff he "heard" about Lindsey "from hanging around backstage" that I found a bit suspect.

I REALLY would like a named source to confirm Compton.

Do we have one?

I agree with you, I wasn't totally sure about Compton either, especially after I saw him make comments claiming Peter Green was drugged by Nazis because he's Jewish(?????)

And it's true he had a lot of friend of a friend on a bike claims. But in the end he was right about Mike Campbell and about the firing. So I don't find it hard to believe that at some point Stevie got fed up and said 'it's me or him'. Maybe Lindsey had made it abundantly clear he wouldn't tour unless he was allowed to do the solo dates as well. But there's a difference between that kind of ultimatum and something that threatens to get another member kicked out. Obviously we can't know exactly what happened and only time will tell as more info comes out, but it's just not that hard for me to imagine that it played out something like that.

[Tango]

According to Elle's post (On the Mick's Social Media thread) of the Facebook conversation with Rick Turner, this sounds like it was a business decision, plain and simple . . . .

I'm no business expert, but clearly it would not make good business sense for them to allow Lindsey to solo tour in between the Mac shows. If Stevie or Christine asked to do that, they would be shot down too.

Jamie

Can you imagine if Stevie requested to tour her Bella Donna album or her Wild Hearts album during a Fleetwood Mac tour? I am no business expert either. But I can see why it caused an explosion. (IF this is what it all came down to. And I also see the many schemes Mick has pulled with the fan club, the guaranteed seats, the calendars, the meet and greets, etc. and I hated that too). I don't know what the remedy would be since I don't think we know exactly what happened. Is it possible that this outing for Fleetwood Mac could be a one time thing, and then maybe something else for The Five? With this band, who knows. But in the end, I will see this outing if it happens, I will see Lindsey solo when it happens, and I will hope The FM INC and LB INC can come to an agreement for the future.

[Ench]

Quite possibly: both.

[button-lip]

Let's make our judgments based on source reliability.

Stevie issued an ultimatum according to Joe Compton, the man who took photographs on occasion for Tom Petty and posted on the Mike Campbell fan page. Has there been any secondary confirmation? Named sources only, please.

Lindsey issued an ultimatum according to....? Named sources only, please.

Yes, thank you! :xoxo:

And even if Lindsey fought for this solo tour, at least he was fighting for something, unlike Stevie, who delievered an "it's him or me" ultimatum based on nothing. How old is she? 8?

They ambushed Lindsey. Even MC knew he was gonna get fired. When he was approached, Mick and Stevie were already thinking about firing him. So, no matter what he did, the decision was already made.

[elle]

She is both a narcisstic diva and an incredibly talented rock & roll icon IMO.
Just like Lindsey is both a jerk and a genius. I honestly don’t know any hardcore LB fans in real life but it seems like the majority of the ones discussing this online are unwilling to accept that maybe he, a notoriously difficult guy, could have been complicit and played some part in the split.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t think there’s any one hero or villain here. Just 5 messy imperfect people who can’t quite get it together.
you must be joking?! how can you be in FM fandom and not know any LB hardcores. well, you know me - from here. i guess you don't actually read what i have to say.

[elle]

I really think that, while not forgotten, what happened in the 70s and 80s is in a totally different realm from today. Everyone made everyone's life hell back in those days. Lindsey was an asshole, Stevie was a diva, John was a drunk, Mick was a mess, Christine was annoyed at everyone. That's just how it was.
What happened now I whole heartedly believe is a business/scheduling issue that really went south. I don't think anything triggered anything. At this point in their lives I think they just want to make their money in the easiest way possible and Lindsey's wishes for his solo project was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

i agree with most of what you say, but you have to throw into that business decision the dynamics of stevie and lindsey. in that recent Sirius interview Azoff said that it is a whole different kind of art watching people torturing in the band each other for no apparent reason. i fully believe people and the band he was talking about are stevie/lindsey and FM.

[rhiannondontgo]

you must be joking?! how can you be in FM fandom and not know any LB hardcores. well, you know me - from here. i guess you don't actually read what i have to say.

I didn’t say I don’t know of any big LB fans. I see tons of them online. And I do indeed read their (and your) posts. I said I didn’t know any in real life. The many close friends I’ve made from following FM around all happen to be primarily Stevie people. In my post I was talking about the discussions with my group of real-life friends and how they were processing this whole situation. When I said I don’t really know any big LB fans personally, it wasn’t any kind of dig towards him. I was just pointing out that the viewpoints and conversations I was describing could in all fairness be biased since there wasn’t anyone from Lindsey’s camp participating in our discussion.

[gldstwmn]

I didn’t say I don’t know of any big LB fans. I see tons of them online. And I do indeed read their (and your) posts. I said I didn’t know any in real life.
Well their narrative is the only narrative that matters on this whole thing. ;)

[krrrby]

I feel like Lindsey wants a new FM album - he has a vault of songs himself - I think he may have said "make a new album or I'm not going on tour" - he's tired of doing the same thing every 3 years.

[Storms123]

I really don't think it's a "Stevie vs Lindsey" situation. I am sad they could sort the situation out and take this band out on the high it deserves.

[elle]

I feel like Lindsey wants a new FM album - he has a vault of songs himself - I think he may have said "make a new album or I'm not going on tour" - he's tired of doing the same thing every 3 years.

he was done with trying to push FM for a new album. he's been done with that since 2016, when they decided to release BuckVie.

[elle]

I didn’t say I don’t know of any big LB fans. I see tons of them online. And I do indeed read their (and your) posts. I said I didn’t know any in real life. The many close friends I’ve made from following FM around all happen to be primarily Stevie people. In my post I was talking about the discussions with my group of real-life friends and how they were processing this whole situation. When I said I don’t really know any big LB fans personally, it wasn’t any kind of dig towards him. I was just pointing out that the viewpoints and conversations I was describing could in all fairness be biased since there wasn’t anyone from Lindsey’s camp participating in our discussion.

you know what? i just realized after reading your post about bringing people upfront. you do know me in person. :nod: :laugh:

you are that tiny little girl who i let stand in front of me at the Today Show because i felt bad that you wouldn't see anything if you are behind me, no?
there were 5 hardcore buckheads right around you at the Today Show - we wore Trojan hats. we were talking to everyone there, while in line and while waiting for the band. i remember trying to strike a converstaion with you several times, because i love meeting fans at these shows. so if you don't know any buckheads, that is not for the lack of trying on our part. but might be for the lack of caring to meet us on your part. :laugh::xoxo::angel::cool:

[gldstwmn]

buckheads

No it's Buckhead... the Ritz Carlton in Buckhead where yo boy was seen kissing a hooker from the Cheetah Club and then asking her to go upstairs. Allegedly :woohoo:

[button-lip]

I really don't think it's a "Stevie vs Lindsey" situation. I am sad they could sort the situation out and take this band out on the high it deserves.

But it was. No matter how much Stevie's fans want to think otherwise. I wish it was way more complicated, given the outcome. But it wasn't.

[dreamsunwind]

No it's Buckhead... the Ritz Carlton in Buckhead where yo boy was seen kissing a hooker from the Cheetah Club and then asking her to go upstairs. Allegedly :woohoo:

I'm genuinely really confused by all of your posts. Lindsey could have "allegedly" made out with 500 different groupies on a tour, what does that have to do with anything?
What people are talking about now is that he got kicked out of the band from some business/scheduling conflict that got ugly. People are rightfully mad over how it was handled and how it ended. A lot of people have pretty decent reason to think Stevie and Mick aided the firing and so they're mad about it. Of course they are! The legacy of the band has been ruined and a lot of people's favorite member is gone now.

What does bringing up something like this have to do with anything? Do you, a STEVIE NICKS fan, really have a right to say anything about someone possibly sleeping around/being unfaithful? I love Stevie too, even when I'm disappointed with her, I do love her but she isn't exactly the Virgin Mary/model of fidelity.

[justcrazylove]

I've had enough of gldstwmn comments about a week ago. We get it, you're loving this. We aren't! Don't now respond with some BS about being allowed to say what you want, I don't care. Just quit being such a jerk.

[Storms123]

I believe Kristen Buckingham has said it best recently, he's a great man and got a raw deal. Says a lot coming from one who knows him best.

[gldstwmn]

I've had enough of gldstwmn comments about a week ago. We get it, you're loving this. We aren't! Don't now respond with some BS about being allowed to say what you want, I don't care. Just quit being such a jerk.

I’m not loving this. I’m sorry your illusions have been shattered. I’m sick of people blaming Stevie.

[gldstwmn]

I believe Kristen Buckingham has said it best recently, he's a great man and got a raw deal. Says a lot coming from one who knows him best.

20 million dollar homes and horse farms go a long way toward coloring one’s opinion no?

[gldstwmn]

I'm genuinely really confused by all of your posts. Lindsey could have "allegedly" made out with 500 different groupies on a tour, what does that have to do with anything?
What people are talking about now is that he got kicked out of the band from some business/scheduling conflict that got ugly. People are rightfully mad over how it was handled and how it ended. A lot of people have pretty decent reason to think Stevie and Mick aided the firing and so they're mad about it. Of course they are! The legacy of the band has been ruined and a lot of people's favorite member is gone now.

What does bringing up something like this have to do with anything? Do you, a STEVIE NICKS fan, really have a right to say anything about someone possibly sleeping around/being unfaithful? I love Stevie too, even when I'm disappointed with her, I do love her but she isn't exactly the Virgin Mary/model of fidelity.
I’m genuinely confused you actually think you know what happened. :shrug::shrug::shrug:
The Stevie hatred is way over the top. You don’t like it when people say sh:t about Mr. Skinny Jeans. That’s my whole point.

[HomerMcvie]

I've had enough of gldstwmn comments about a week ago. We get it, you're loving this. We aren't! Don't now respond with some BS about being allowed to say what you want, I don't care. Just quit being such a jerk.

Are you married? Because I'm considering proposing....:xoxo::xoxo::xoxo:


I don't even know if you're a woman or a man....but I like the way you think!:angel::angel::angel:


I hope that wasn't too misogynistic!:D

[dreamsunwind]

I’m genuinely confused you actually think you know what happened. :shrug::shrug::shrug:
The Stevie hatred is way over the top. You don’t like it when people say sh:t about Mr. Skinny Jeans. That’s my whole point.

I've actually said more than once that no one who wasn't there will probably ever know exactly what happened. But from all the different pieces of information we have gotten about this entire thing, it seems pretty fair to assume that all of this started with some conflict about the tour and it all just went downhill from there. What happened beyond that is a total mystery. But that's not going to stop people from speculating and of course anger is to be expected.
And I love Stevie. I've been disappointed/annoyed in a lot of her career decisions lately ever since way before Lindsey was fired but I still manage to love her without thinking she can do no wrong. I've criticized her but I've never said a single derogatory thing about Stevie.

And people can say what they want about Lindsey. I've even acknowledged he probably is to blame for some of this by having difficult requests. But the odd, out of nowhere comments you've made about his personal life that really have nothing to do with this entire thing are unwarranted.

[Angel75]

I've actually said more than once that no one who wasn't there will probably ever know exactly what happened. But from all the different pieces of information we have gotten about this entire thing, it seems pretty fair to assume that all of this started with some conflict about the tour and it all just went downhill from there. What happened beyond that is a total mystery. But that's not going to stop people from speculating and of course anger is to be expected.
And I love Stevie. I've been disappointed/annoyed in a lot of her career decisions lately ever since way before Lindsey was fired but I still manage to love her without thinking she can do no wrong. I've criticized her but I've never said a single derogatory thing about Stevie.

And people can say what they want about Lindsey. I've even acknowledged he probably is to blame for some of this by having difficult requests. But the odd, out of nowhere comments you've made about his personal life that really have nothing to do with this entire thing are unwarranted.

Couldn't agree more

[Storms123]

20 million dollar homes and horse farms go a long way toward coloring one’s opinion no?

I don't think material items constitute making someone great. Perhaps she does or does not, and for that, I for one will not know, because I don't know these people personally. Perhaps she's talking about him as a great father and husband?

[button-lip]

20 million dollar homes and horse farms go a long way toward coloring one’s opinion no?

God, you really ARE Stevie! Nice to meet you! :blob1::blob1:

[button-lip]

I've actually said more than once that no one who wasn't there will probably ever know exactly what happened. But from all the different pieces of information we have gotten about this entire thing, it seems pretty fair to assume that all of this started with some conflict about the tour and it all just went downhill from there. What happened beyond that is a total mystery. But that's not going to stop people from speculating and of course anger is to be expected.
And I love Stevie. I've been disappointed/annoyed in a lot of her career decisions lately ever since way before Lindsey was fired but I still manage to love her without thinking she can do no wrong. I've criticized her but I've never said a single derogatory thing about Stevie.

And people can say what they want about Lindsey. I've even acknowledged he probably is to blame for some of this by having difficult requests. But the odd, out of nowhere comments you've made about his personal life that really have nothing to do with this entire thing are unwarranted.

Many people connected to the band was there and have already talked. Besides, when so many people from different sources tell the same story it's hard to believe they're all lying.

[button-lip]

I’m not loving this. I’m sorry your illusions have been shattered. I’m sick of people blaming Stevie.

You can't possibly believe a powerful woman like Stevie had absolutely no say in Lindsey's firing.

[gldstwmn]

I don't think material items constitute making someone great. Perhaps she does or does not, and for that, I for one will not know, because I don't know these people personally. Perhaps she's talking about him as a great father and husband?

And let's hope that he is. His family's support is a good sign.

[gldstwmn]

And people can say what they want about Lindsey. I've even acknowledged he probably is to blame for some of this by having difficult requests. But the odd, out of nowhere comments you've made about his personal life that really have nothing to do with this entire thing are unwarranted.

I'm sorry you feel that way. :(
I don't feel that Stevie can do no wrong. As humans we are all flawed. What I am reacting to is the over the top hatred of Stevie on this forum and the unobjective race to pin the blame on her for Lindsey's departure. I'm just trying to illustrate that people think nothing of throwing rocks at Stevie for her personal life but yet when I do the same to Lindsey I'm excoriated for it. You can't deny that exists here. It's only lately that I have really come to see what a martinet he really is to Stevie. Many don't want to believe it so I chose to discuss his patterns with the women in his life and boy they ain't pretty. Ultimately I truly believe he did this to himself. I believe they have both sought treatment separately for their issues but their relationship has been over for so long they never resolved their deep seated issues with each other. And so here we are...

[gldstwmn]

Are you married? Because I'm considering proposing....:xoxo::xoxo::xoxo:


I don't even know if you're a woman or a man....but I like the way you think!:angel::angel::angel:


I hope that wasn't too misogynistic!:D

Poor baby. Is the big bad feminist gldstwmn attacking you? Does mommy need to kiss it and make it better?

[gldstwmn]

God, you really ARE Stevie! Nice to meet you! :blob1::blob1:

We are not amused with you.

[gldstwmn]

Many people connected to the band was there and have already talked. Besides, when so many people from different sources tell the same story it's hard to believe they're all lying.

Can you give me that long list of sources and what they're saying?

[button-lip]

We are not amused with you.

Awwww, too bad! Because I was hoping we could meet and sing Dessert Angel together!

[button-lip]

Can you give me that long list of sources and what they're saying?

:lol::lol::lol: Nice try. Not gonna happen. That's why they're called sources.

Don't fool yourself anymore. What Stevie wants, Stevie gets.

[gldstwmn]

:lol::lol::lol: Nice try. Not gonna happen. That's why they're called sources.

Don't fool yourself anymore. What Stevie wants, Stevie gets.

Unsubstantiated. Next!

[gldstwmn]

Awwww, too bad! Because I was hoping we could meet and sing Dessert Angel together!

I'm down. It's 4/20 and all. :]

[HomerMcvie]

Poor baby. Is the big bad feminist gldstwmn attacking you? Does mommy need to kiss it and make it better?

I only have one thing that I want you to kiss!

[button-lip]

Unsubstantiated. Next!

How convenient!

[bombaysaffires]

I've actually said more than once that no one who wasn't there will probably ever know exactly what happened. But from all the different pieces of information we have gotten about this entire thing, it seems pretty fair to assume that all of this started with some conflict about the tour and it all just went downhill from there. What happened beyond that is a total mystery. But that's not going to stop people from speculating and of course anger is to be expected.
And I love Stevie. I've been disappointed/annoyed in a lot of her career decisions lately ever since way before Lindsey was fired but I still manage to love her without thinking she can do no wrong. I've criticized her but I've never said a single derogatory thing about Stevie.

And people can say what they want about Lindsey. I've even acknowledged he probably is to blame for some of this by having difficult requests. But the odd, out of nowhere comments you've made about his personal life that really have nothing to do with this entire thing are unwarranted.

well put.

I think other people characterizing this "whole thread" as full of nothing but "Stevie hatred" is doing exactly what the troll is accusing everyone else of-- painting everything in one big, broad brush. The issue is not simplistic, this band is complicated and messed up in so many ways, including both Lindsey and Stevie. Most of us admit this. Some of us are in denial about our favorite member. As someone said, this had to be a whole band or at least majority band vote in order to have happened. That includes Stevie. It is difficult if not impossible to think she abstained from voting on this one. And the most likely vote was to get rid of him. Indeed, sources who have proved reliable throughout this have said she issued an ultimatum-- I can't work with him anymore, it's either me or him.

Some of us accept, whether we like it or not, that this appears to be true. Her reasons very likely go beyond just the issue at hand, i.e., should he be part of the tour or not based on something he did/said recently. You can't keep the past out of your decisions in the present, and it seems highly likely her feelings about a lot of past things would come into play when casting her vote about the tour. It also seems likely,, to me and many of us, that SOMETHING beyond just disagreeing about tour dates had to have happened, and that Lindsey may well have crossed the line in something he said/did.

Will we ever know for sure? Maybe, if witnesses are ever willing to talk. I doubt we'll get the real story from the band itself until long, long after this tour is over, because right now they've all got their "good soldier" faces on and will be saying whatever they need to to ensure tickets sell for the tour.

I do wonder if Mike or whats his name will be on tv with them

[Storms123]

well put.

I think other people characterizing this "whole thread" as full of nothing but "Stevie hatred" is doing exactly what the troll is accusing everyone else of-- painting everything in one big, broad brush. The issue is not simplistic, this band is complicated and messed up in so many ways, including both Lindsey and Stevie. Most of us admit this. Some of us are in denial about our favorite member. As someone said, this had to be a whole band or at least majority band vote in order to have happened. That includes Stevie. It is difficult if not impossible to think she abstained from voting on this one. And the most likely vote was to get rid of him. Indeed, sources who have proved reliable throughout this have said she issued an ultimatum-- I can't work with him anymore, it's either me or him.

Some of us accept, whether we like it or not, that this appears to be true. Her reasons very likely go beyond just the issue at hand, i.e., should he be part of the tour or not based on something he did/said recently. You can't keep the past out of your decisions in the present, and it seems highly likely her feelings about a lot of past things would come into play when casting her vote about the tour. It also seems likely,, to me and many of us, that SOMETHING beyond just disagreeing about tour dates had to have happened, and that Lindsey may well have crossed the line in something he said/did.

Will we ever know for sure? Maybe, if witnesses are ever willing to talk. I doubt we'll get the real story from the band itself until long, long after this tour is over, because right now they've all got their "good soldier" faces on and will be saying whatever they need to to ensure tickets sell for the tour.

I do wonder if Mike or whats his name will be on tv with them

Very well said. I am choosing to look at this as a "Fleetwood Mac" issue and not a "Stevie Lindsey" issue. This is a band, and a decision was made--like it or hate it, and as a fan of Fleetwood Mac, I hate it. I do think, cutting through a lot of the noise, that's how many people are feeling. I am still a fan of Stevie's and I am still a fan of Lindsey's. With it's current line up--I am not so psyched about Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac in this current line up, for me anyway, is Christine, John, Mick and Stevie. No disrespect to Mike, who is a fantastic musician, and Neil (I don't know much about Crowded House), but that's a fact. Right now, they are 2 musicians filling a hole that needed to be filled to take this show on the road. Should this current lineup release some new music, my opinion might change. In my opinion, that's one of the main differences between this situation and the Rick/Billy/Bekkah situation. Also, truthfully, even when Chris left. The remaining members released new stuff. Right now, FM with this lineup, has a cover band feel to it. I don't want to go to a FM concert to listen to covers of the Heartbreakers and Crowded House (should they put them in the set) and I don't want to hear Neil sing "Go Your Own Way" or "Don't Stop" Personally, I didn't like "Don't Stop" when Christine wasn't singing it either. That's just my personal preference and not a knock on Stevie (I am a huge fan of hers, have seen her solo countless times and she's an amazing singer---I feel the need to say this b/c I don't want people to say I am taking sides). With a few exceptions, I generally don't like covers. Lorde singing "Silver Springs" was awful to my ears. She's truly talented but I didn't like it--it's a personal preference.
We will never know what truly went down behind the scenes (legal reasons or so they can safe face with the fans). I hope an ultimatum wasn't thrown down. At this juncture in their lives, and after all they've done FOR EACH OTHER, if the ultimatum is true, that's the saddest thing of all. If this really is the "Farewell Tour" we've all been robbed--the band included.

[GypsySorcerer]

Very well said. I am choosing to look at this as a "Fleetwood Mac" issue and not a "Stevie Lindsey" issue. This is a band, and a decision was made--like it or hate it, and as a fan of Fleetwood Mac, I hate it. I do think, cutting through a lot of the noise, that's how many people are feeling. I am still a fan of Stevie's and I am still a fan of Lindsey's. With it's current line up--I am not so psyched about Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac in this current line up, for me anyway, is Christine, John, Mick and Stevie. No disrespect to Mike, who is a fantastic musician, and Neil (I don't know much about Crowded House), but that's a fact. Right now, they are 2 musicians filling a hole that needed to be filled to take this show on the road. Should this current lineup release some new music, my opinion might change. In my opinion, that's one of the main differences between this situation and the Rick/Billy/Bekkah situation. Also, truthfully, even when Chris left. The remaining members released new stuff. Right now, FM with this lineup, has a cover band feel to it. I don't want to go to a FM concert to listen to covers of the Heartbreakers and Crowded House (should they put them in the set) and I don't want to hear Neil sing "Go Your Own Way" or "Don't Stop" Personally, I didn't like "Don't Stop" when Christine wasn't singing it either. That's just my personal preference and not a knock on Stevie (I am a huge fan of hers, have seen her solo countless times and she's an amazing singer---I feel the need to say this b/c I don't want people to say I am taking sides). With a few exceptions, I generally don't like covers. Lorde singing "Silver Springs" was awful to my ears. She's truly talented but I didn't like it--it's a personal preference.
We will never know what truly went down behind the scenes (legal reasons or so they can safe face with the fans). I hope an ultimatum wasn't thrown down. At this juncture in their lives, and after all they've done FOR EACH OTHER, if the ultimatum is true, that's the saddest thing of all. If this really is the "Farewell Tour" we've all been robbed--the band included.

This is largely how I feel, as well. I'm deeply disturbed they are choosing to go out this way. I have always, and will always prefer the five of them together. When Christine left, I attended the SYW shows because 1) I had never seen them live, in any incarnation and 2) she had retired and it seemed at the time the decision was permanent. And I enjoyed the shows, but I definitely missed her. I hated Stevie singing Don't Stop.

I believe they are tarnishing their legacy by doing this, and I am profoundly disappointed by that.