The Chain

[jcalzaretta]

The RS collectors edition has this song at 5. I actually would have had this at 1 (certainly higher than Don't Stop). BUT - am I wrong - or was the write up on this a bit odd. There is no doubt that last half is all the jam session from Keep Me There. But LB said he wrote the lyrics? I thought Stevie said she did. She certainly wrote the chorus and the title is hers. And she got no mention. A bit odd. Odd giving them all writing credit. That has to be because of the jam session at the end of Keep Me There. But Stevie gets credits for the title and the chorus at least. But I thought she wrote all the lyrics.

[aleuzzi]

The RS collectors edition has this song at 5. I actually would have had this at 1 (certainly higher than Don't Stop). BUT - am I wrong - or was the write up on this a bit odd. There is no doubt that last half is all the jam session from Keep Me There. But LB said he wrote the lyrics? I thought Stevie said she did. She certainly wrote the chorus and the title is hers. And she got no mention. A bit odd. Odd giving them all writing credit. That has to be because of the jam session at the end of Keep Me There. But Stevie gets credits for the title and the chorus at least. But I thought she wrote all the lyrics.

Yes, Stevie wrote the lyrics and melody on top of the backing track. Her original acoustic-guitar version of The Chain is much longer with more branches than were actually used in the final song. Lindsey's most important job was to weld the basic structure of Christine's bluesy backing track with Stevie's folk tune. Of course he does a great job with tying the disparate parts together, but yes, it's simply wrong to give him credit for the words and melody. I think RS is really pushing the LB/CM partnership right now, which is cool, but not at the expense of the truth.

[jcalzaretta]

Thank you. I am familiar with the acoustic version of the Chain. No doubt LB did a great job pulling together. Love this song. So powerful given the history of the band.

[bombaysaffires]

according to Stevie, in an interview done around that time, they didn't have lyrics. Lindsey knew her song and, in her words, asked if they could use part of it. She said to him "you're ripping the chorus out". She said, "he didn't care that much". So they put her chorus into the song, but still didn't have verses. Ultimately Lindsey wrote the verses, the "listen to the wind blow"etc. then it blended into her chorus "And if you don't love me now...." and then into John's bass and the whole ending which was grafted on straight from Christine's song. John def deserves his writing credit coz that bass line is stunning. He should get a cut of the royalties, it's a big part of the song's success.

[TrueFaith77]

John def deserves his writing credit coz that bass line is stunning. He should get a cut of the royalties, it's a big part of the song's success.

Imagine if you received royalties on 1/5 of 1/11 (that's 1/55) of Rumours--you would never have to work again.

[bombaysaffires]

Imagine if you received royalties on 1/5 of 1/11 (that's 1/55) of Rumours--you would never have to work again.

and the icing on the cake, some share of the tour profits and merchandising profits. Even if he's the lowest paid band member, he for sure makes more than most of us!

[SteveMacD]

Imagine if you received royalties on 1/5 of 1/11 (that's 1/55) of Rumours--you would never have to work again.

That's not how it works. Today's rate for a song on an album is $0.09, so they'd each get $0.018 for "The Chain" per album. I don't know what the 1977 rate was, but just assuming 25 million copies by today's rate, it would be $450,000.

[David]

I know we've started a million threads on how The Chain got finalized. But has everyone heard these 1976 audio clips of Christine, Lindsey, and Stevie working out harmonies, lyrics, rhythms?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wgEqWlq-4cncIsJxHwritHS6CsqaiRV4?usp=sharing

[elle]

recent discussion on the percentage of contribution from each of the 5 - http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=58121&highlight=chain+percentage

[cbBen]

"['The Chain'] started off as–jogging the memory here–it was really Stevie's and mine to begin with in the verse: 'Listen to the wind blow....' And my ever-present pseudo-blues riffs in there. And at some point I think Christine fashioned the feel of the chorus, and the chorus was certainly Stevie's lyrics. And then at some point there's this bass line which came in at the end that's kind of a hook, and there was some case to be made for it to be a valid enough contribution as to deserve songwriting credit. I can't honestly say that Mick had anything to do with writing the song. But we did give credit to all members of the band."–Lindsey Buckingham 1993, Songwriters On Songwriting by Paul Zollo

It's ambiguous to me whether he is saying the lyrics to the "Listen to the wind blow" verse are his, or his and Stevie's both. Insert a comma before "and mine" and it could read as the former.

P.S. From the same interview: "['Walk A Thin Line'] was me on the drums. Mick was appalled. He was appalled that these drums were going to go out and people would think that's him because it offended the finer points of his sensibilities. And I understand that. I was really going for slop. And trying to cut through the slickness in some ways.... They're left and right drums, and the kick and snare are on either side, and these military press fills, which is really what the song is built on.... That worked out well, too."

[SteveMacD]

Curious that WATL became one of Mick’s favorites, so much so that he did it on The Visitor.

[elle]

Curious that WATL became one of Mick’s favorites, so much so that he did it on The Visitor.

maybe to fix the drum part?

i've been amazed too, and he's definitely been very clear about his love for WATL.

[HomerMcvie]

maybe to fix the drum part?

i've been amazed too, and he's definitely been very clear about his love for WATL.

I love Mick's version on The Visitor.

[aleuzzi]

"['The Chain'] started off as–jogging the memory here–it was really Stevie's and mine to begin with in the verse: 'Listen to the wind blow....' And my ever-present pseudo-blues riffs in there. And at some point I think Christine fashioned the feel of the chorus, and the chorus was certainly Stevie's lyrics. And then at some point there's this bass line which came in at the end that's kind of a hook, and there was some case to be made for it to be a valid enough contribution as to deserve songwriting credit. I can't honestly say that Mick had anything to do with writing the song. But we did give credit to all members of the band."–Lindsey Buckingham 1993, Songwriters On Songwriting by Paul Zollo

It's ambiguous to me whether he is saying the lyrics to the "Listen to the wind blow" verse are his, or his and Stevie's both. Insert a comma before "and mine" and it could read as the former.

P.S. From the same interview: "['Walk A Thin Line'] was me on the drums. Mick was appalled. He was appalled that these drums were going to go out and people would think that's him because it offended the finer points of his sensibilities. And I understand that. I was really going for slop. And trying to cut through the slickness in some ways.... They're left and right drums, and the kick and snare are on either side, and these military press fills, which is really what the song is built on.... That worked out well, too."

His account of The Chain’s origins isn’t entirely accurate here. It started as a Christine song. This has been discussed on this board a lot in the past. The backing track is essentially hers while the melody and lyrics are Stevie’s and Lindsey’s—mainly his contributions are cobbling together the various parts and making them into a coherent, dynamic whole. All three writers are equally responsible in different ways. The blend of folk-based melodies (Stevie) with a bluesy/quasi-jazzy chord progression (Christine) is part of what makes this song so unusual and incredible.

[cbBen]

His account of The Chain’s origins isn’t entirely accurate here.

Yes, he's probably misremembering a bit. He even acknowledges he's jogging his memory.

A decent interview overall, as it focusses on songs and songwriting. The book is worth getting, particularly if you're a fan of a number of the interviewees, as I am.

I have the 2003 edition, which includes interviews with Lindsey, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Leonard Cohen, Paul Simon, Brian Wilson, Randy Newman, Carole King, Townes Van Zandt, Tom Petty, Lou Reed, and Jackson Browne (among many others).

Leonard Cohen's interview is my favorite.

[David]

My point wasn't to revisit the who-wrote-what discussion so much as to provide actual audio (which some ledgies may not have ever heard) of the three songwriters working out the verses. Listening to that audio clarifies a great deal in my mind. But threads have a life of their own!

Adding that Mick seems to like covering songs when he likes them. Case in point: You Might Need Somebody (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Might_Need_Somebody), a Tom Snow song that's been recorded by several artists (including Turley Richards and Joe Walsh). The recording that Mick & Co. did for I'm Not Me is imo the best of them all—smooth, sexy, and ever-so-slightly Fleetwood Mac prickly.

Was it Mick's idea to record For Your Love in the early seventies?

[SteveMacD]

Was it Mick's idea to record For Your Love in the early seventies?

That was Bob Weston’s idea.

[Steviegirl]

I know we've started a million threads on how The Chain got finalized. But has everyone heard these 1976 audio clips of Christine, Lindsey, and Stevie working out harmonies, lyrics, rhythms?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wgEqWlq-4cncIsJxHwritHS6CsqaiRV4?usp=sharing

Good grief! This is amazing! Thank you so much for sharing it! WHY aren't there box sets and deluxe editions with stuff like THIS on them???

[secondhandchain]

great stuff, looks like they seriously considered having a different melody for the chorus with the lyrics "write me a love song, take away the sadness..."

[luminol]

This is fascinating. Thanks for the audio clips. Such gems to hear.

And even though the thread is older and was boosted, I enjoyed reading through on the purported backstory of the song. I knew it was a collaboration of various works put together, and John's baseline, etc, but not so many details. Thanks again.

[ViscountViktor]

I still don't get how they got from those demos recorded at Sausalito, to the compressed vocals on the final track - why are they so tiny? It ruins the track for me, and many other Rumours songs, and makes me doubt the quality of the production that went into that album.

[ViscountViktor]

And HOW can a kick drum be recorded so badly that it is reduced to a tap.

[michelej1]

Just reading this old stuff and saw one of my favorite past quotes. Actually Stevie is genuinely funny. I’m not even saying she’s lying a lot here. We know she did most of the words. I can even believe she did the melody. What makes me laugh is the thought of Lindsey and Christine just sitting there like losers not being able to write one song for nine whole months and they finally swallowed their pride and asked her to help. I see Lindsey asking to use a song of hers, but not coming up to her and asking her to help him write, because he and Christine were so pathetic alone.

Stevie comes in and “valiantly” saves the day.

Well The Chain: about nine months into the album, they
only had the solo, the part, I always call it when the
monsters come, when it goes dun, dun, dun, it's really
creepy. They only had from that part out and Christine and
Lindsey were really writing it and finally after about nine
months they said can you help us with this because we
need this rock and roll song on this record and so I
valiantly said alright. And so I dug out an old song I had
written called “The Chain” a long time before and I
thought that melody-wise it would work and it did. Lindsey
wrote the words “listen to the wind blow” and I wrote all
the other words and the melody even the singing melody.
I even wrote the “running through the shadows” at the
end and Lindsey actually, in one of the few times he’s
ever done that, sang exactly what I told him to sing cause I
went out and did it and then he went out with me and
then we just took my voice off. Then I just said that The
Chain should belong to everybody because for nine
months its been this solo that we have all been listening to
and its just been great and so it should belong to
everybody.

[bombaysaffires]

Just reading this old stuff and saw one of my favorite past quotes. Actually Stevie is genuinely funny. I’m not even saying she’s lying a lot here. We know she did most of the words. I can even believe she did the melody. What makes me laugh is the thought of Lindsey and Christine just sitting there like losers not being able to write one song for nine whole months and they finally swallowed their pride and asked her to help. I see Lindsey asking to use a song of hers, but not coming up to her and asking her to help him write, because he and Christine were so pathetic alone.

Stevie comes in and “valiantly” saves the day.

Freaking hilarious, considering in doing interviews late 70s/early80s she actually said that Lindsey came to her and said, "Can we use the 'and if you don't love me now' part?" and she said to him "You are ripping the chorus out of my song" and said "he didn't care that much" and that she was the one who had the whole idea of "the chain" and never breaking the chain

[michelej1]

Yes. Mick too mentioned that Lindsey had a good memory for his own songs and Stevie and Christine’s and he wanted to use Stevie’s song.

She’s so ridiculous though. It’s like she talks about the Botox and she correctly says that you can tell that all those women look alike. Sisters of Satan. Similarly, even if you weren’t familiar with Stevie, sometimes her descriptions of events gets so overblown that you would know she was lying even if you just met her.

She was the savior who wrote The Chain (except for 4 trite words, which make LB sound pretty unimaginative) because Lindsey and Christine could not function. But then she decided they should all share credit on her song, because she’s just that generous.

[David]

She was the savior who wrote The Chain (except for 4 trite words, which make LB sound pretty unimaginative) because Lindsey and Christine could not function. But then she decided they should all share credit on her song, because she’s just that generous.Of course what really proved to be her undoing in her story about “The Chain” were the tracks of “Keep Me There” that were included on several of those Rumours specialty releases. We could all finally hear exactly what was what.

[michelej1]

Of course what really proved to be her undoing in her story about “The Chain” were the tracks of “Keep Me There” that were included on several of those Rumours specialty releases. We could all finally hear exactly what was what.

Yes, even before they came out for everyone to hear I think we knew about Butter Cookie vs. Keep Me There etc. We talked about it amongst ourselves.

[John Run]

I think overtime most of us have come to discern that song grew from Christine's Keep Me There, Stevie then brought the chorus and the lyrical hook of "if you don't love me now" Lindsey wrote the verses and then built the disparate pieces into a cohesive track linked by John's bass solo. And well Mick, he had the ear.

You know, from my previous writings - I think the real writing conspiracy, mystery on Rumours is I Don't Want to Know and how much of that is really a Lindsey lyric and track. We will never know. Just fun to speculate and offer conjecture based on informed knowledge of both of their writing styles.

[jbrownsjr]

I think overtime most of us have come to discern that song grew from Christine's Keep Me There, Stevie then brought the chorus and the lyrical hook of "if you don't love me now" Lindsey wrote the verses and then built the disparate pieces into a cohesive track linked by John's bass solo. And well Mick, he had the ear.

You know, from my previous writings - I think the real writing conspiracy, mystery on Rumours is I Don't Want to Know and how much of that is really a Lindsey lyric and track. We will never know. Just fun to speculate and offer conjecture based on informed knowledge of both of their writing styles.

I swear I've always thought the same about IDWK. It's such a Lindsey feel and lyric. Was there bargaining going on?

Take this song and we'll give you writing credit.

[michelej1]

I swear I've always thought the same about IDWK. It's such a Lindsey feel and lyric. Was there bargaining going on?

Take this song and we'll give you writing credit.

No, because that song was identified as belonging to Stevie before they were ever in FM. Aside from that, I don’t think Stevie would take such a bargain. She wanted her songs out there, as many as possible. As evidenced by her not wanting to use Crystal.

I think she didn’t want IDWTK because it was an older song and she would rather have a fresh song of hers on there.

[HomerMcvie]

I think she didn’t want IDWTK because it was an older song and she would rather have a fresh song of hers on there.

I wonder what $he considers fresh now?

1985?

That stuff's turned rancid.

[John Run]

For me I Don't Want to Know being an older song further pushes my curiosity / suspicion about the song. We all know those early songs were created during the time of closeness between Lindsey and Stevie and he spent days, weeks, and months working on her songs, as she worked odd jobs to support his production habit. As Lindsey has said the line between production and co-writing on Stevie's songs was pretty blurry.

To me there are some undeniable Lindseyisms in that song, phrasing, lyrical crutches, progressions, etc.

Mick says Lindsey, "we aren't using Silver Springs, what else we got that we can work up and present to Stevie as an option? How about the song you did the demo of with unfinished verses?"

All speculation and just good fun.

[jbrownsjr]

All speculation and just good fun.

It is good fun. I can see Crystal being a Nicks penned song. I can't stand her more current version. Way too nasal. So I'm glad LB sang the beautiful FM version. He presents the song way better than she does.

But, IDWK does have so many Lindsey isms. "I just want you to feel fine." There's a simplicity to it that screams Buckingham. It's the cousin of Second Hand News and half brother of Never Going Back Again. I've always loved this song and wished they'd had done it live. I wonder why she wouldn't sing it. Maybe it was too nasal like Crystal.

[soul_drifter333]

It is good fun. I can see Crystal being a Nicks penned song. I can't stand her more current version. Way too nasal. So I'm glad LB sang the beautiful FM version. He presents the song way better than she does.

But, IDWK does have so many Lindsey isms. "I just want you to feel fine." There's a simplicity to it that screams Buckingham. It's the cousin of Second Hand News and half brother of Never Going Back Again. I've always loved this song and wished they'd had done it live. I wonder why she wouldn't sing it. Maybe it was too nasal like Crystal.

I think that there is a live bootleg version of them doing it together from the Buckingham Nicks days.

[jbrownsjr]

I think that there is a live bootleg version of them doing it together from the Buckingham Nicks days.

I've heard it. It's not half bad. I wish Mick and John and Christine were on it.

[michelej1]

I just think that Lindsey would’ve taken credit for the song, if he thought he did anything but arrange it. Frozen Love shows he knew how to do that back then.

Stevie has said that she has tried to write like Lindsey before when he said some of her poetic lyrics made him sick. In those instances, she tried to be less flowery, but it didn’t feel authentic for her. She may have done that with IDWTK and that may be another reason why she doesn’t like it so much.

[elle]

I just think that Lindsey would’ve taken credit for the song, if he thought he did anything but arrange it. Frozen Love shows he knew how to do that back then.


i don't know. he didn't take co-writing or producing credit for many songs that others would have. he said recently (during BuckVie promotion i think?) when people asked them about all the co-writes he and Christine did, how many of their early FM songs were probably co-writes too, but he didn't think of taking credit for them at the time.

that said, i was always surprised he took co-writing credit for Frozen Love considering his pattern at the time.

[aleuzzi]

I can believe Stevie wrote IDWK all by herself, including the chords. Her most solid songs (in terms of their shape before being arranged and recorded) are her earliest. “That’s Alright” is another well-crafted country pop song. These two tubes along with “Landslide,” “Lady,” and “Crystal” show us where she might have gone had she not been swept up in the Rhiannon mystique.

I have said a 10000 times I think IDWK was chosen over SS primarily because it’s an upbeat tune with vocal presence for Lindsey. His voice is the one that unifies the contrasting women’s vocals and balances the female presence on the record. He reminds us Fleetwood Mac is first and foremost a rock band with blues and testosterone-heavy roots. Christine and Stevie’s songs and voices may have been far more distinctive and marketable on the whole, but they worked best to temper and stabilize Lindsey’s high-strung energy. Both the women seduce, soothe, and persuade (in their respective ways) whereas Lindsey rouses and agitates.

If IDWK wasn’t in the running order, the album wouldn’t have worked this balance as nicely. The one-two punch of YMLF and IDWK, following the searing guitar breakout of “The Chain“ push Rumours to the heights of its momentum, followed by the mournful dirge of “Oh Daddy” and then the eerie, mystical coda of GDW. It’s an impeccably sequenced record.

And, quite simply, IDWK embodies the desperate ethos of Rumours better than any other song. Those two gorgeous voices harmonizing their agony to what amounts to an Appalachian folk tune framed as California pop—that is serious genius.

I have always liked IDWK far better than the original “Silver Springs.” The 1997 version is a whole other matter. She grew into the song, became worthy of its epic pretensions.

[elle]

I can believe Stevie wrote IDWK all by herself, including the chords. Her most solid songs (in terms of their shape before being arranged and recorded) are her earliest. “That’s Alright” is another well-crafted country pop song. These two tubes along with “Landslide,” “Lady,” and “Crystal” show us where she might have gone had she not been swept up in the Rhiannon mystique. .

yes, definitely.

so either:


she was the best at the start of her career, and somehow drifted off later , forgot all the chords and arrangements and could never repeat it (there are many entertainers like that), or
her early / pre-FM songs were heavily worked on by Lindsey so you can't know where he begins and she ends - and she did not want to let him get away with doing whatever he wanted with her songs after they broke up.

[jmn3]

I can believe Stevie wrote IDWK all by herself, including the chords. Her most solid songs (in terms of their shape before being arranged and recorded) are her earliest. “That’s Alright” is another well-crafted country pop song. These two tubes along with “Landslide,” “Lady,” and “Crystal” show us where she might have gone had she not been swept up in the Rhiannon mystique.

I have said a 10000 times I think IDWK was chosen over SS primarily because it’s an upbeat tune with vocal presence for Lindsey. His voice is the one that unifies the contrasting women’s vocals and balances the female presence on the record. He reminds us Fleetwood Mac is first and foremost a rock band with blues and testosterone-heavy roots. Christine and Stevie’s songs and voices may have been far more distinctive and marketable on the whole, but they worked best to temper and stabilize Lindsey’s high-strung energy. Both the women seduce, soothe, and persuade (in their respective ways) whereas Lindsey rouses and agitates.

If IDWK wasn’t in the running order, the album wouldn’t have worked this balance as nicely. The one-two punch of YMLF and IDWK, following the searing guitar breakout of “The Chain“ push Rumours to the heights of its momentum, followed by the mournful dirge of “Oh Daddy” and then the eerie, mystical coda of GDW. It’s an impeccably sequenced record.

And, quite simply, IDWK embodies the desperate ethos of Rumours better than any other song. Those two gorgeous voices harmonizing their agony to what amounts to an Appalachian folk tune framed as California pop—that is serious genius.

I have always liked IDWK far better than the original “Silver Springs.” The 1997 version is a whole other matter. She grew into the song, became worthy of its epic pretensions.

All of this. Though I think the original Silver Springs is nice and COULD have fit into the album somewhere, I can't imagine Rumours without I Don't Want to Know. It's one of my favorite songs of Stevie's and on Rumours in general. How they have never played it live is beyond me.

The '97 version of SS is absolutely superior to the original -- from the borrowed intro from Wish You Were Here to the revised ending, they nailed that arrangement.

[SteveMacD]

yes, definitely.

so either:


she was the best at the start of her career, and somehow drifted off later , forgot all the chords and arrangements and could never repeat it (there are many entertainers like that), or
her early / pre-FM songs were heavily worked on by Lindsey so you can't know where he begins and she ends - and she did not want to let him get away with doing whatever he wanted with her songs after they broke up.

Or a little of both. Stevie really ends in 1983 for me. She might have a good song here or there, but TWH was the last batch of consistently good new songs she’s made.

What’s sad is Blue Denim, Maybe Love..., and Destiny would have been great contributions to a Fleetwood Mac album.

[jbrownsjr]

yes, definitely.

so either:


she was the best at the start of her career, and somehow drifted off later , forgot all the chords and arrangements and could never repeat it (there are many entertainers like that), or
her early / pre-FM songs were heavily worked on by Lindsey so you can't know where he begins and she ends - and she did not want to let him get away with doing whatever he wanted with her songs after they broke up.


I honestly think when she wasn't feeding her ego, (1973-1983) she was writing fantastic melodies and lyrics that someone else would ultimately morph into something fantastic.

As time went on, she was very hit and miss. I get to be the boss!

[On Ice]

On Stevie's writing, I think a journey through what we know is still in the vault shows that yes, she was writing fantastic melodies and lyrics: The Rhiannon songs, China Doll, Sanctuary etc. There is an old review out there somewhere of Buckingham Nicks that makes note of her skill in combining chords and melody. This is true of her writing (even pre-73 to 84) noting she had some good songs pre Rock a Little production. A combination of drug use and inflated sense of "everything I write is a classic", lead to the sharp decline in quality and consistency.

So, I believe I Don't Want to Know is hers but with a lot of Lindsey input to hone it into a fantastic song. Nothing different from Dreams or Gold Dust Woman and later Gypsy and Straight Back.

[jbrownsjr]

On Stevie's writing, I think a journey through what we know is still in the vault shows that yes, she was writing fantastic melodies and lyrics: The Rhiannon songs, China Doll, Sanctuary etc. There is an old review out there somewhere of Buckingham Nicks that makes note of her skill in combining chords and melody. This is true of her writing (even pre-73 to 84) noting she had some good songs pre Rock a Little production. A combination of drug use and inflated sense of "everything I write is a classic", lead to the sharp decline in quality and consistency.

So, I believe I Don't Want to Know is hers but with a lot of Lindsey input to hone it into a fantastic song. Nothing different from Dreams or Gold Dust Woman and later Gypsy and Straight Back.

I always felt like she and McVie worked on Straight Back together. I like the two of them together.