The Infamous Bob Dylan Comment

[Fleetwood Jack]

So I had a question for all of my ledgies peeps.

What's the big deal about Lindsey Buckingham's comment on her first person to third person lyrics? I thought he put it nice enough.

I'm curious what you guys think of the "Well, you wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan" comment. I thought it was kind of rude since he seemed nice enough, but I'm ready and willing to hear what al you have to say!

[HomerMcvie]

She's a *****, and she can't stand him(Lindsey).

[SisterNightroad]

I think that it happened more than 14 years ago and probably they don't care or even remember it anymore.

[elle]

So I had a question for all of my ledgies peeps.

What's the big deal about Lindsey Buckingham's comment on her first person to third person lyrics? I thought he put it nice enough.

I'm curious what you guys think of the "Well, you wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan" comment. I thought it was kind of rude since he seemed nice enough, but I'm ready and willing to hear what al you have to say!

I know right? It was reasonable and polite question. The response was a complete ego trip ladden slam that she keeps repeating as the worst thing ever for more than a decade now, as one of the prime examples why he's so "horrible" to work with. Pretty mind boggling for unbiased observer, unless of course your world view is filtered through chiffon.

[CarnivalBegin]

I think that it happened more than 14 years ago and probably they don't care or even remember it anymore.

I think you're wrong. She dedicated a whole section to that comment in her self-glorifying movie (which I love by the way 'cause, she deserves a lot of the glory) "In Your Dreams". I think she thinks of that comeback she had for him every time their eyes meet. She is a holder of grudges that claims she would never hold a grudge.

Anyways - what I think of the comment? He was right to point it out - but ultimately she WAS/IS right. Poetry is whatever you want it to be that expresses what you're trying to say. "And now you're going home" is more poignant and more beautiful-sounding than "And now he's going home".

The fact that she compares herself to Bob Dylan though is a little laughable. Don't get me wrong - I adore and worship the woman, I truly do. I also love Bob Dylan and own nearly each and every one of his albums (I'm missing a couple from the 80s, so sue me!) but Dylan has CONTINUED to release new and relevant and ever-evolving albums at a rate of more-or-less one every two years since 1962. Stevie has been anything but prolific in terms of actually released/published music AND - again, keep in mind I really do ADORE this woman - but she does still write with just about the point of view and wisdom of a teenager or young adult. It speaks to me cause I, myself, still love and think like a teenager in my love affairs but, come on - Bob Dylan is way more profound and has constantly looked in different directions and reinvented himself so many times. Do you really think Dylan would ever tour the same 15-or-so songs for over 20 years? No way in hell. Set list changes every night and he loves to confound people. Stevie is all about bankability.

So in the end - I adore that scene in Destiny Rules and I ultimately think SHE IS RIGHT but ... c'mon, even though you speak to me more than Dylan does most of the time ... you're still no Bob Dylan. N'either is Lindsey ... only difference? Lindsey knows damn' well he's no Dylan. Nobody's Dylan. Only Dylan is Dylan.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

[SisterNightroad]

I think you're wrong. She dedicated a whole section to that comment in her self-glorifying movie (which I love by the way 'cause, she deserves a lot of the glory) "In Your Dreams".
Really, I didn't know, I still haven't managed to watch In Your Dreams yet.
Obviously she likes to remark about things that happened a lot of time ago, like my mother ironically likes to say "women can hold grudges for ever", but I really think neither of them cares so much about these things as much as we like to think anymore.
I picture them like my old late grandparents who argued all the time about little things they did or said ages before but then promptly forgot what they were arguing about when lunch/dinner/snack was ready.

[jbrownsjr]

So I had a question for all of my ledgies peeps.

What's the big deal about Lindsey Buckingham's comment on her first person to third person lyrics? I thought he put it nice enough.

I'm curious what you guys think of the "Well, you wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan" comment. I thought it was kind of rude since he seemed nice enough, but I'm ready and willing to hear what al you have to say!

As the producer, it's his job to edit and run things by the writer that he might see as a problem. His take was perfectly within the scope of his dutiesl and as a writer himself, he couldn't not bring it up. Changing tenses is up to the writer. But, I think what he was trying to say was," because this song is so literal and not as abstract as a Bob Dylan, you might want to re-think this." (paraphrasing)

He might have just said, "hey you changed tenses are you cool with that?" and it would have been over. But, his approach was maybe a bit too condescending to her ears.

She's not like other people, she do what she want to.... ;)

[Neal]

Taken on its own, the "Destiny Rules" incident makes Stevie looks like an overreacting bitch. However... this was probably the 689th time Lindsey has tried to correct her grammar over the past 40+ years. Her annoyance was justified.

The difference was it was caught on film this time. And yes, she's held a grudge and regurgitated the story time and time again.

[TrueFaith77]

Forgive my attempts to conjugate, but it basically seems to switch between:

1) Third Person Past
2) Third-Person Perfect (or Present) (or Future??)
3) Second-Person Present where "You" is EITHER
....a) Lindsey OR
....b) Stevie

So it's a total of four different tenses in one song. ... and yes it's beautiful

THIRD-PERSON PAST
HE fell for her again, SHE watched it happen
Every day, day by day
But more important, night by night
SHE watched it all come into play
HE held her hands, SHE listened to what HE had to say

THIRD-PERSON PERFECT(?)
Thrown down, like a barricade
Maybe now HE could prove to her
That HE could be good for HER
And they should be together

SECOND-PERSON PRESENT - LINDSEY
YOU (Lindsey)'ve shaken your faith in ME, no
YOU (Lindsey)'ve shaken my faith in everything else
A decision no one makes, and now YOU (Lindsey)'RE going home
Faith is a hard thing to hold on to
Something inside YOU says I don't have to
YOU (Lindsey)'re not like other people, YOU (Lindsey) do what YOU (Lindsey) want to
YOU (Lindsey)'re not like other people, YOU (Lindsey) do what YOU (Lindsey) want to

THIRD-PERSON PERFECT(?)
Thrown down, like a barricade
Maybe now HE could prove to HER
That HE could be good for HER
And they should be together

SECOND-PERSON PRESENT - STEVIE
YOU (Stevie) say YOU (Stevie)'re sorry
Now YOU (Stevie) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Stevie) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him

THIRD-PERSON PERFECT(?)
Oh, thrown down, like a barricade
Maybe now HE could prove to HER
That HER could be good for HER
And they should be together
About just how much HER never really told HER
Thrown down,
About how difficult it had been to be without HER
Thrown down

[bwboy]

Truefaith, I love what you did, putting their names in the song. But I took one verse differently than you:

You (Lindsey) say you're (Lindsey) sorry
Now you (Lindsey) should walk away...
You (Lindsey) have nothing left to say

The rest I agree with you, though. Funny how the song can read differently to everyone!

[TrueFaith77]

Truefaith, I love what you did, putting their names in the song. But I took one verse differently than you:

You (Lindsey) say you're (Lindsey) sorry
Now you (Lindsey) should walk away...
You (Lindsey) have nothing left to say

The rest I agree with you, though. Funny how the song can read differently to everyone!

Yeah, I realized I always thought that was Lindsey too, but maybe I am assuming some consistency there where there isn't any haha.

So you (and I before this exercise) heard it this way (which is even more bonkers):


SECOND-PERSON PRESENT - STEVIE
YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Lindsey) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Lindsey) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him

[elle]

Yeah, I realized I always thought that was Lindsey too, but maybe I've assuming some consistency there.

So you (and I before this exercise) heard it this way (which is even more bonkers):


SECOND-PERSON PRESENT - STEVIE
YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Lindsey) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Lindsey) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him

haha i have yet alternate version for you guys - this is how i always though of it:

YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Stevie) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Stevie) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him


he apologized, and now, after getting the apology she needed, she feels she should walk away. but it's all too overwhelming. she has nothing left to say - or do.

:D

[TrueFaith77]

haha i have yet alternate version for you guys - this is how i always though of it:

YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Stevie) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Stevie) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him


he apologized, and now, after getting the apology she needed, she feels she should walk away. but it's all too overwhelming. she has nothing left to say - or do.

:D

Oh. I think YOU are right. ;)

[jbrownsjr]

haha i have yet alternate version for you guys - this is how i always though of it:

YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Stevie) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Stevie) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him


he apologized, and now, after getting the apology she needed, she feels she should walk away. but it's all too overwhelming. she has nothing left to say - or do.

:D

Yes!!! I like this

[TrueFaith77]

he apologized, and now, after getting the apology she needed, she feels she should walk away. but it's all too overwhelming. she has nothing left to say - or do.

:D

It's all too overwhelming she's getting her person/tense all f'dup!

[mylittledemon]

Lindsey absolutely had a valid point. I was surprised that he'd even say that to Stevie though, to be honest... but I think Lindsey also said he felt it was so worth mentioning, in an effort to help strengthen the song, otherwise he wouldn't have said anything at all. But Stevie's response to him about whether he'd say that to Bob Dylan kinda put him in check. So yeah, I think Lindsey had a point, but Stevie hit the nail on the in her response to him. And I'm glad they didn't change the song, it works just fine how it is.

[Macfan4life]

I have Stevie's back on this one. I don't think Lindsey was out of place so much and was offering a suggestion. But I see Stevie's point. She does write the way she feels it and to correct tense can be offensive to a poet or songwriter.
I speak and write like this too. In 10th grade I had an English teacher who loved the way I wrote but she would knock points off my papers because I would use different tense over and over to describe a situation. I relate to Stevie on this one and NO ONE would dare to say that to Bob Dylan nor would they care.
I think Stevie was a bit overly sensitive but I see and understand her point completely.

[jbrownsjr]

She not like other people she due what she want two

[jmn3]

I agree, as the producer, he had a right to make a point. She had an equal right to shut him down, which she did. They moved on. I can't believe she would feel compelled to bring it up ever again.

[bwboy]

Yeah, I realized I always thought that was Lindsey too, but maybe I am assuming some consistency there where there isn't any haha.

So you (and I before this exercise) heard it this way (which is even more bonkers):


SECOND-PERSON PRESENT - STEVIE
YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Lindsey) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Lindsey) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him

Regardless of the 'true' meaning of the song, this was fun trying to figure who she was singing to or at, and it was awesome to hear other's thoughts on the song. Thrown Down is my favorite song on Say You Will, and really one of my favorite FM/SN songs ever. It definitely is one of her more accessible songs in that it's clearly about their relationship, but it's not maudlin or bitter, just a nice, simple song.

Maybe we should talk about Think About It, a song Stevie wrote for Christine. Also, I think I read Stevie wrote Say You Will for or about Christine, too. Any analysis on these?

[sue]

I think they are both at fault....her for having such a thin skin where he is concerned....and him for trying to correct her lyrics, as producer shouldn't be addressing himself to the music side of things.
Her lyrics are idiosyncratic to her and what makes her,her.

[singertobe]

This song sounds kinda sad. Yeah I know, off topic. But seriously

[HomerMcvie]

.and him for trying to correct her lyrics, as producer shouldn't be addressing himself to the music side of things.

I hope you know that THAT'S what a producer does. They're not there to tell her how pretty her chiffon is.

[jbrownsjr]

This song sounds kinda sad. Yeah I know, off topic. But seriously

agreed... it's like a last ditch effort to get back together.

[jbrownsjr]

I hope you know that THAT'S what a producer does. They're not there to tell her how pretty her chiffon is.

well he could have at least talked about the amazing spirit catcher she brought!!!

[dreamsunwind]

agreed... it's like a last ditch effort to get back together.

That's a good way to word it. This was actually probably the first FM song I ever heard. It played at the end of this episode of Friends where Joey had a party for his soap opera.

[jbrownsjr]

That's a good way to word it. This was actually probably the first FM song I ever heard. It played at the end of this episode of Friends where Joey had a party for his soap opera.

In my head, (and I'm not a shipper) I imagined this happened during the Dance and he asked her to get back together and she didn't answer.. and then he left and never mentioned it again..

[HomerMcvie]

well he could have at least talked about the amazing spirit catcher she brought!!!

And that stupid talking fish. What a dolt!

[dreamsunwind]

In my head, (and I'm not a shipper) I imagined this happened during the Dance and he asked her to get back together and she didn't answer.. and then he left and never mentioned it again..

I'm not really a shipper either (at least not like one of the ones I think people refer to when they say shipper), though I'm not like an anti-shipper either, but I've heard about that Dance era. Interesting times that's for sure. I love the song too. People always complain about her Say You Will songs but I really like this one. Goodbye Baby too.

[jbrownsjr]

I'm not really a shipper either (at least not like one of the ones I think people refer to when they say shipper), though I'm not like an anti-shipper either, but I've heard about that Dance era. Interesting times that's for sure. I love the song too. People always complain about her Say You Will songs but I really like this one. Goodbye Baby too.

I didn't like SYW, Destiny, Silver Girl, Running and Goodbye Baby..

I liked Illume, Thrown Down, Everybody Finds Out, Smile At You

[lilyfee]

Truefaith, I love what you did, putting their names in the song. But I took one verse differently than you:

You (Lindsey) say you're (Lindsey) sorry
Now you (Lindsey) should walk away...
You (Lindsey) have nothing left to say

The rest I agree with you, though. Funny how the song can read differently to everyone!

I always thought that whole verse was the royal you... As in, "as a lesson, people, say you're sorry, then you should walk away" etc.

I do NOT think Stevie overreacted by asking Lindsey if he would say that to Bob Dylan. He wasn't simply asking her opinion on that line, he was telling her it was a "rule of thumb" (or something similar) that peple shouldn't write like that... As if she isn't a gifted, prolific writer, who has sold millions of records with her lyrics. As if she doesn't understand how music works and he does, despite the two of them coming from the same place and working side-by-side as songwriting equals. I see how she would be insulted, and give him a little attitude. He gave her attitude first by insinuating that she didn't know the rules of thumb for writing music when that's literally her career.:shrug:

Furthermore, Stevie has mentioned numerous times that Lindsey tried to teach her, before Buckingham Nicks, how to properly write songs, to the point where she couldn't stand The Beatles because he made her listen to their songs over and over to learn about song structure. I imagine she gets a little tired of him mansplaining to her from time to time.

I think playing with tense and pronouns adds great depth to her songs... Look at how we all interpreted a few lines of this very song differently for this exact reason!

[dreamsunwind]

I didn't like SYW, Destiny, Silver Girl, Running and Goodbye Baby..

I liked Illume, Thrown Down, Everybody Finds Out, Smile At You

Mmm, I'm mostly the same. I forget how good Illume is. Smile at You is controversial I think because people are so in love with the demo.
Say You Will is such an awful song. I can't believe they let it on the record. To me I feel like it was Stevie sort of trying a Christine type of thing but failing horribly.

[jbrownsjr]

Mmm, I'm mostly the same. I forget how good Illume is. Smile at You is controversial I think because people are so in love with the demo.
Say You Will is such an awful song. I can't believe they let it on the record. To me I feel like it was Stevie sort of trying a Christine type of thing but failing horribly.

Yeah, the title track is horrible. And it makes me dislike the album because that's the title.. ya know

[elle]

I don't think Lindsey was out of place so much and was offering a suggestion. But I see Stevie's point. She does write the way she feels it
completely agree. he was politely pointing it out, and she said no and why. if it stopped there it would be a completely normal exchange. Bob Dylan self-comparison was the part that made it over the top. Bob Dylan is a Nobel prize winning poet. deservedly so, however controversial that may be. in that DR exchange, Stevie comes across as being fully convinced that she's just as good as Dylan. and that's why Lindsey was biting his tongue after she said that. to his credit, he didn't react and let it drop.

Taken on its own, the "Destiny Rules" incident makes Stevie looks like an overreacting bitch. However... this was probably the 689th time Lindsey has tried to correct her grammar over the past 40+ years. Her annoyance was justified.

The difference was it was caught on film this time. And yes, she's held a grudge and regurgitated the story time and time again.
i think this is probably true. and probably in the times past he was not nearly as nice about it as in that DR exchange. she may have kept it all bottled up for years which led her to completely overreact in that doc. and considering how many times she regurgitated that story, somehow she doesn't see how bad it makes her look.

[dreamsunwind]

I didn't see anything wrong with what he said at all. I don't know if they have sensitivity issues so maybe to her it was, but it really didn't come across condescending or anything like that to me. I was rolling my eyes when she said 'there's a way to suggest and there's a way to tell', when he was indeed just suggesting, he wasn't going 'you have to change this or else we won't record it'.
And I think he was biting his tongue as if like 'Stevie, when you write a 'Like a Rolling Stone' THEN you can say something like that'.

And how often she's brought it up, like he has to have done something since then that also annoyed her why is that her go to thing.

[SteveMacD]

That exchange was rather telling. It was a minor, minor point that Stevie blew out of proportion. She got used to people treating her like a rock star, which is something Lindsey will probably never do. Her success doesn't impress or intimidate him, and I think that's the biggest reason she doesn't want to work with him.

[jbrownsjr]

That exchange was rather telling. It was a minor, minor point that Stevie blew out of proportion. She got used to people treating her like a rock star, which is something Lindsey will probably never do. Her success doesn't impress or intimidate him, and I think that's the biggest reason she doesn't want to work with him.

That's just it. Her pretension bled into the band. And they ain't havin it. She's not someone that handled fame very well. She feeds off of it.

[HomerMcvie]

That's just it. Her pretension bled into the band. And they ain't havin it. She's not someone that handled fame very well. She feeds off of it.

I am shocked. Never in my 13 years here, have I witnessed such vitriol, leveled towards that chiffon clad temptress.



Glory hallelujah! Finally, people are seeing her for what she is!:angel:

[olive]

Glory hallelujah! Finally, people are seeing her for what she is!:angel:

A home wrecking adulterous slutty party girl

[HomerMcvie]

A home wrecking adulterous slutty party girl

Yes! Thank you, Olive!

[sue]

I hope you know that THAT'S what a producer does. They're not there to tell her how pretty her chiffon is.

No, I mean shouldn't he be addressing himself to the music...i.e. Keep to the music not her lyrics...but actually admiring her chiffon and lace would work, cos she's a girlie girl....

[MoonSister75]

I am shocked. Never in my 13 years here, have I witnessed such vitriol, leveled towards that chiffon clad temptress.



Yes it's shocking just how much this place turns into a cesspit of vitriol at times :shrug:

All band members have their equal faults, contributing to the dysfunction of this band. To keep blaming one of them seems inane, and it's very dull to read. Why would Stevie want to go back into a recording situation that potentially brings up all their s*it all over again. Maybe she's the sensible one in all this by staying away. There is new music coming without the member that many of you detest, and yet still the moaning continues :shrug:

And making a firm judgement about what went on between them during months of recording, by one exchange caught on film, seems absurd.

[MoonSister75]

, Stevie comes across as being fully convinced that she's just as good as Dylan.

What?? Not at all :shrug: That's just the way you view it, through Lindsey tinted spectacles. She's just trying to make a point. She's no angel and I'm sure she can be extremely irritating. But do you honestly not believe that Lindsey is just as irritating, and just as much to blame for their 40 years of fighting.

[Andyleo]

Yes it's shocking just how much this place turns into a cesspit of vitriol at times :shrug:

All band members have their equal faults, contributing to the dysfunction of this band. To keep blaming one of them seems inane, and it's very dull to read. Why would Stevie want to go back into a recording situation that potentially brings up all their s*it all over again. Maybe she's the sensible one in all this by staying away. There is new music coming without the member that many of you detest, and yet still the moaning continues :shrug:

And making a firm judgement about what went on between them during months of recording, by one exchange caught on film, seems absurd.

I couldn't agree more to this post.

[bwboy]

I couldn't agree more to this post.

Ditto. Well said!

[BLY]

Ditto. Well said!


Ditto..Ditto!

[shackin'up]

It was a remark he knew he should not have made, because he knows she doesn't buy it. from him. So it was a bit provoking. Especially because he put it mildly. It's part of their dynamic, I suppose, but he could have left it.

On the other hand, she obviously cannot handle that dynamic anymore, and I wish she'd say that. THAT would soften my interpretation of her behaviour towards recording with her band.

[TrueFaith77]

Maybe Stevie should do a duets album with Christine (Mick & John rhythm section)!

[elle]

That's just the way you view it, through Lindsey tinted spectacles.
if you actually read what i wrote, you'd know that's completely incorrect (in this specific case!).

it's funny watching these threads, going from rational and levelled discussion to name calling, to stevie-police coming out in full force! :D

[jbrownsjr]

if you actually read what i wrote, you'd know that's completely incorrect (in this specific case!).

it's funny watching these threads, going from rational and levelled discussion to name calling, to stevie-police coming out in full force! :D

Chiffon card REVOKED! Policing is a good word.. they go thru the discussion and just wait to jump on anyone that DARES go against the pretension of La Nicks.

[HomerMcvie]

Chiffon card REVOKED!

And for the first time, it feels like the Chiffonese are outnumbered.

[bwboy]

Maybe Stevie should do a duets album with Christine (Mick & John rhythm section)!

Truefaith, you are rapidly becoming my favorite poster here, along with Fleetwood Jack! I love the sound of their voices together, and I would totally go for a McNicks album!

[Fleetwood Jack]

Truefaith, you are rapidly becoming my favorite poster here, along with Fleetwood Jack!

Hey that's me!

[SisterNightroad]

And for the first time, it feels like the Chiffonese are outnumbered.
Is that a neologism that indicates Chiffonheads of Chinese origins? Because if it is I'm totally down with that.

[SteveMacD]

Maybe Stevie should do a duets album with Christine (Mick & John rhythm section)!
***cough***
***cough***
***cough***
***Behind the Mask***
***cough***
***cough***
***cough***

[jbrownsjr]

***cough***
***cough***
***cough***
***Behind the Mask***
***cough***
***cough***
***cough***

haha well played!!

[MoonSister75]

if you actually read what i wrote, you'd know that's completely incorrect (in this specific case!).

I read exactly what you wrote and I stand by what I said - I do not see where you get it from that she comes across as being fully convinced that she's just a good as Dylan. What is the big problem with her mentioning Bob Dylan, and using him as an example to make a very good point to Lindsey, who was possibly being quite aggravating.

completely agree. he was politely pointing it out, and she said no and why. if it stopped there it would be a completely normal exchange. Bob Dylan self-comparison was the part that made it over the top. Bob Dylan is a Nobel prize winning poet. deservedly so, however controversial that may be. in that DR exchange, Stevie comes across as being fully convinced that she's just as good as Dylan. and that's why Lindsey was biting his tongue after she said that. to his credit, he didn't react and let it drop.





it's funny watching these threads, going from rational and levelled discussion to name calling, to stevie-police coming out in full force! :D

yes because using the term stevie-police is very rational and level headed :shocked:

[MoonSister75]

Chiffon card REVOKED! Policing is a good word.. they go thru the discussion and just wait to jump on anyone that DARES go against the pretension of La Nicks.

Yet again, completely untrue. Stevie fans wade through pages and pages of vitriol before any of us can be bothered to say anything to counteract the Stevie bashing. Then if we do bother to say anything we are called the Stevie-police. Can you see why I'm saying it just gets a bit dull and repetitive.

But anyway, carry on, I'm not expecting anything to change. Just making observations...

[elle]

I stand by what I said - I do not see where you get it from that she comes across as being fully convinced that she's just a good as Dylan. What is the big problem with her mentioning Bob Dylan, and using him as an example to make a very good point to Lindsey, who was possibly being quite aggravating. :
i'm glad you agree that Stevie Nicks' poetry is nowhere near close to Dylan's. :nod:

note the bolded part where i say i understand why she could have been frustrated and it all boiled out for her after one seemingly innocent remark:
i think this is probably true. and probably in the times past he was not nearly as nice about it as in that DR exchange. she may have kept it all bottled up for years which led her to completely overreact in that doc. and considering how many times she regurgitated that story, somehow she doesn't see how bad it makes her look.

[MikeInNV]

Yet again, completely untrue. Stevie fans wade through pages and pages of vitriol before any of us can be bothered to say anything to counteract the Stevie bashing. Then if we do bother to say anything we are called the Stevie-police. Can you see why I'm saying it just gets a bit dull and repetitive.

But anyway, carry on, I'm not expecting anything to change. Just making observations...

It's the double-standard I find most irksome. You shouldn't suggest someone sees things through Lindsey-tinted glasses, but it's fine to say someone else's opinions are filtered through a layer of chiffon. What's the difference?

[SteveMacD]

Why would Stevie want to go back into a recording situation that potentially brings up all their s*it all over again. Maybe she's the sensible one in all this by staying away.
Why would she stay in the band if she wasn't willing to be a full member of the band? She accepted no less from Christine.

[elle]

It's the double-standard I find most irksome. You shouldn't suggest someone sees things through Lindsey-tinted glasses, but it's fine to say someone else's opinions are filtered through a layer of chiffon. What's the difference?

why shouldn't you suggest that? i'll readily admit that in many cases it's true and that i jump to LB's defense a lot.

but also, if i see and discuss both sides of the issue, while someone else obviously sees only one side, than i'm not the one with myopia.

so i admit it. do you?

Why would she stay in the band if she wasn't willing to be a full member of the band? She accepted no less from Christine.
exactly.

[bwboy]

Hey that's me!

Somehow, you and truefaith remain polite and positive and, well, just downright pleasant! I freely admit I've gotten frustrated and contributed to the negativity here, so please keep posting!

[MikeInNV]

why shouldn't you suggest that? i'll readily admit that in many cases it's true and that i jump to LB's defense a lot.

but also, if i see and discuss both sides of the issue, while someone else obviously sees only one side, than i'm not the one with myopia.

so i admit it. do you?


Do I admit that I sometimes post in Stevie's defense? Of course, but not nearly as often as I could. MoonSister hit the nail on the head when she said that we scroll through pages of vitriol before finally having to say something in counterpoint. Digs at Lindsey don't last long before someone posts a retort, so the "Stevie police" certainly aren't the only cops on the street.

We are a biased bunch on the Ledge (I wonder if we can name someone who isn't), but some biases just seem to be more acceptable than others.

[jbrownsjr]

Why would she stay in the band if she wasn't willing to be a full member of the band? She accepted no less from Christine.

It's a legit question. But the answer is money. Not just for Stevie, but for all of them. She wants money and needs FMac for the huge pay off. And they need her.

They are lucky they can still make what they make at this age.

I'm just grateful that we get a duets album. Feeling blessed.

[elle]

We are a biased bunch on the Ledge (I wonder if we can name someone who isn't)
yes. i've definitely seen people who are not biased here.

i have to say that i peaked to SN board to check that interview she gave about not participating in Mac album few days ago, and was pleasantly surprised how many unbiased and non-chiffon tinted posts by Stevie fans were there. :nod: so it can be done.

[jbrownsjr]

yes. i've definitely seen people who are not biased here.

i have to say that i peaked to SN board to check that interview she gave about not participating in Mac album few days ago, and was pleasantly surprised how many unbiased and non-chiffon tinted posts were there. :nod: so it can be done.

I'm not biased. But if I had to admit to leaning, I probably tend to favor Stevie more than the others.

[aleuzzi]

I'm not biased. But if I had to admit to leaning, I probably tend to favor Stevie more than the others.

That surprises me! You seem like a Christine champion all the way.

[elle]

I'm not biased. But if I had to admit to leaning, I probably tend to favor Stevie more than the others.
and yet, many here will probably label you as very biased, just because you state opinions that are not in line with theirs, or all your statements are not absolutely positive about their favorite.

i think difference some people don't grasp is that you can't always post in somebody's defense, you have to be able to see and point their negatives too. from some people i've never seen anything but pointing negatives about one side and positives of the other.

[jbrownsjr]

That surprises me! You seem like a Christine champion all the way.

Haha.. you know I am. I was trying to make y'all laugh. .

[elle]

Haha.. you know I am. I was trying to make y'all laugh. .
yet, i've seen you post stuff criticizing her, and giving a lot of credit to various other band members.

there are many people here who never had anything positive to say about certain band members and yet claim they love them. that's disingenuous. i've never claimed to be a Stevie fan. yet even i had nicer things to say about her than certain people who claim to "love" all band members ever said about Lindsey, Christine, or Mick.

[MikeInNV]

there are many people here who never had anything positive to say about certain band members and yet claim they love them.

Those are the people who really drive me nuts. Makes me wonder about what they are like in real life.

i've never claimed to be a Stevie fan. yet even i had nicer things to say about her than certain people who claim to "love" all band members ever said about Lindsey, Christine, or Mick.

Even you? You gave me a ration for using that phrasing a couple days ago! :laugh: :xoxo:

[elle]

Those are the people who really drive me nuts. Makes me wonder about what they are like in real life.



Even you? You gave me a ration for using that phrasing a couple days ago! :laugh: :xoxo:
lol, if you don't see the difference between me using it vs you using it to describe my statements i can't help ya! :shrug: :xoxo:

[Fleetwood Jack]

Somehow, you and truefaith remain polite and positive and, well, just downright pleasant! I freely admit I've gotten frustrated and contributed to the negativity here, so please keep posting!

Dangit bwboy! You are too nice!



(Do you guys like how I've gotten distracted and started a completely different thread within my own thread?)

[MoonSister75]

Why would she stay in the band if she wasn't willing to be a full member of the band? She accepted no less from Christine.

Christine doesn't have an ongoing painful dynamic with her ex-partner of 50 years, who will be producing the music. I think the band are very aware of just how difficult it is between Lindsey and Stevie ​and have to find a way to work around it.

I am no less disappointed than anyone here that there won't be another album with all 5 (although I live in hope that one still might come about.....:angel:). And I know Stevie's recent article doesn't put her in a good light. I also don't like to hear that it's a decision based on money, or that she feels they are too old to make music together. I just wonder how much of that is just excuses. She mentioned in an interview a while back that going into the studio would put them all in the same stressful situation again (or something along those lines).

She's been determined since SYW to not go back in the studio with Lindsey, apart from a few days for the EP. I could be completely wrong, and it's just my opinion, but I believe not wanting to go back to that recording situation is a big factor in her decision.

If it really is that she can't write anything else, or doesn't feel she can use her old demos as they aren't good enough, then that's just sad. I'm sure she has enough in the vault to make a good contribution to an album.

[dreamsunwind]

She's been determined since SYW to not go back in the studio with Lindsey, apart from a few days for the EP. I could be completely wrong, and it's just my opinion, but I believe not wanting to go back to that recording situation is a big factor in her decision.

If it really is that she can't write anything else, or doesn't feel she can use her old demos as they aren't good enough, then that's just sad. I'm sure she has enough in the vault to make a good contribution to an album.

I agree with this, I always believed this to be the main thing. SYW burned her bridges with Lindsey for producing a full album. An EP or a guest spot on her album is different, because it's short and sweet.

However, this interview showed to me that not writing songs is actually a problem for her now which I'd never before believed it was. So now I also believe that this is another major issue, I think any 'new' music we might get from her will probably be an old demo turned into a song a la 24 Karat Gold.

[aleuzzi]

Christine doesn't have an ongoing painful dynamic with her ex-partner of 50 years, who will be producing the music. I think the band are very aware of just how difficult it is between Lindsey and Stevie ​and have to find a way to work around it.

I am no less disappointed than anyone here that there won't be another album with all 5 (although I live in hope that one still might come about.....:angel:). And I know Stevie's recent article doesn't put her in a good light. I also don't like to hear that it's a decision based on money, or that she feels they are too old to make music together. I just wonder how much of that is just excuses. She mentioned in an interview a while back that going into the studio would put them all in the same stressful situation again (or something along those lines).

She's been determined since SYW to not go back in the studio with Lindsey, apart from a few days for the EP. I could be completely wrong, and it's just my opinion, but I believe not wanting to go back to that recording situation is a big factor in her decision.

If it really is that she can't write anything else, or doesn't feel she can use her old demos as they aren't good enough, then that's just sad. I'm sure she has enough in the vault to make a good contribution to an album.

As I've said elsewhere on this site, her behavior seems to be the result of trauma. Working on her music with Lindsey appears to have shattered her. Since Say You Will she has built up a tough exterior and a wall of iron so he can't penetrate. I can't blame her for wanting to preserve herself. But then she should just say this outright. She already has more than hinted at this by saying that it's better to tour than to fight in the studio for a year.

All along, I've been disappointed that Stevie didn't want to come on board, but I've been WAY more annoyed with Mick and the rest of them for not wanting to move on without her. Now they are--sort of--and I'm thrilled. If they had just come to this conclusion right away, this album would have been 2 years old now. And they could have returned as a group of five to do a world tour together.

Instead, they went out on that tour right away, so hard on the heels of the one they just ended, and then they plan to go out AGAIN next year. My issues have been primarily with how the band (including Stevie) are treating its fans who want new music--with or without Stevie.

[singertobe]

Honestly I've always been on Stevie's side for this issue. I had a similar situation in middle school. We were doing a play and one of my fellow cast members was like "You don't say the lines like that. Its like this." I bit my tongue, but I so wanted to say "Excuse me, but are you the director? Shut up, I'll play the part how I want to play the part!"

[MoonSister75]

As I've said elsewhere on this site, her behavior seems to be the result of trauma. Working on her music with Lindsey appears to have shattered her. Since Say You Will she has built up a tough exterior and a wall of iron so he can't penetrate.

Yes I think she's put up a very firm boundary regarding recording with Lindsey, and not even Christine coming back can change that. It's sad for the fans, as there's nothing better than the 3 singers together with their harmonies. But I totally understand Stevie's decision.

[MoonSister75]

Honestly I've always been on Stevie's side for this issue. I had a similar situation in middle school. We were doing a play and one of my fellow cast members was like "You don't say the lines like that. Its like this." I bit my tongue, but I so wanted to say "Excuse me, but are you the director? Shut up, I'll play the part how I want to play the part!"

It's much easy to empathise with her if you've experienced something similar.
Who wants to spend months on end in a very tense environment? :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

It's much easy to empathise with her if you've experienced something similar.
Who wants to spend months on end in a very tense environment? :shrug:

I do crap ALL THE TIME, because it's the right thing to do, not because I want to do it!

She'd most likely be "nothing", had FM not accepted her as part of "the package deal", so why not suck it up and be grateful, and record one last studio album.

Because time IS running out, and it's going to be too late...

And guess who's fault it's going to be? Yep, her.

[Angel75]

Back to the thread title, Lindsey should know better than to bring something up like 'how she chooses to write her lyrics/poems, he knows it would insult and upset her. He 'tried' to do it nicely but it came across condescending. Did he not doing the exact same thing when he writes in BTLH..."Pretending that she DONT miss me?!!!".....Would Stevie go out of her way to point his incorrect use of grammar and tense here, no of course not. She allows him the freedom to write as he chooses, of course she is not a producer though.
On the other side, Stevie was embarrasingly arrogant to use the Bob Dylan response and probably should of reacted better. I think as previously mentioned this probably one too many times she has been criticised by LB and she reacted badly.
Both at fault in my opinion....a childish disagreement

[MoonSister75]

I do crap ALL THE TIME, because it's the right thing to do, not because I want to do it!

She'd most likely be "nothing", had FM not accepted her as part of "the package deal", so why not suck it up and be grateful, and record one last studio album.

Because time IS running out, and it's going to be too late...

And guess who's fault it's going to be? Yep, her.

At least you'll soon be getting some new music without the old goat ;)

[HomerMcvie]

At least you'll soon be getting some new music without the old goat ;)

AMEN to that. I can't wait!!!!:blob2::blob1::blob2::blob1::blob2::blob1::blob2::blob1::blob2:

[jbrownsjr]

AMEN to that. I can't wait!!!!:blob2::blob1::blob2::blob1::blob2::blob1::blob2::blob1::blob2:

Stand back and don't look down!

[HomerMcvie]

Stand back and don't look down!
Imma Waitin' On The Countdown!

[sodascouts]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

[HomerMcvie]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that the fact that her use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. If they had, maybe she would have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

I love this post, Nancy. It's spot on, and I think describes how Stevie is to a T, these days.

[bombaysaffires]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. If they had, maybe she would have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

Amen sister.:thumbsup:

[dreamsunwind]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.


This is so well put, I can tell you teach writing from it :lol:
And I agree with basically everything, I never thought he did anything wrong with what he said, perhaps there are sensitivity issues with them based on history but there really was nothing wrong with him offering a suggestion.
Stevie definitely does need people who challenge her, it helps her reach her best form. I remember this amazing interview I watched of hers where she talks about how Lindsey 'forced' her to listen to The Beatles and some other groups to learn how to sing harmony. And she said how it made her get resentful of The Beatles but look at what an amazing harmony singer she ended up being.
And that take of Storms where he's telling her that she's not singing it right, probably could've been worded better, but look at how incredible that song came out. Tusk in general, she called him an ayatollah (and he probably deserved it), but in my opinion, that album is an absolute masterpiece and contains her best selection of work (also my opinion) and I personally would not change a single thing about it.
And like you mentioned, she's also said things that imply Jimmy Iovine was that same kind of way.
That being said, I know she loved IYD and Dave Stewart but I feel like that also kind of ruined things, because after that experience she doesn't want to go back to something that's more of a struggle.
I also agree with what you said about 'Lady', that song could've been improved had someone pointed those things out.

I can understand why someone at her age would only want to do things that give her joy but like someone else mentioned, sometimes you just do things you don't necessarily love doing, because you should do them. I know I've done things in the past that I really wasn't thrilled about but I would've felt guilty if I hadn't done them. She's just being so stubborn now which is really so sad considering this is probably going to be the beginning of the curtain call for Fleetwood Mac.

[Phil]

I agree with everything sodascouts wrote - well said!

[JohnL]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

You are saying this assuming that the entire situation during SYW was caught on film and put on the DVD that we got to see. I suspect that there was MUCH more that happened that what made it to the final DVD. What he was saying to her wasn't pushing her to perform or hit notes or challenging her to write better songs...it was trying to make her conform to his writing style and what HE wants. Typical control freak Lindsey.

[jbrownsjr]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

Wow! get out of my head, and stop explaining things better than I! Really really well put. You will get some slack from the apologists, but that only means you did well and hit the right buttons.

[MoonSister75]

I suspect that there was MUCH more that happened that what made it to the final DVD.

​Exactly. No one here really knows what went on between them during the recording of that album. All we know is Stevie is adamant she won't do it again. We can all guess and debate about who's fault it is. But at the end of the day all that is clear is that they clash greatly, and is that really a good place to start recording a new album?

I just wish they could find a way around it so that maybe they didn't need to be in the studio together, or that time there was very limited, but that's probably not practical.

[singertobe]

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

Well to be fair, most artists would do the same

[MoonSister75]

Well to be fair, most artists would do the same

I know, it really was condescending off him, and such a put down. It's her poetry, and it's very precious to her. As someone else said on here, he should be concentrating on the music rather than changing the lyrics of the other artists songs. I wonder if he has suggested to Christine she needs to change any of her lyrics....

Good for Stevie for putting him in his place with the Bob Dylan quote :nod:

[HomerMcvie]

Good lort, as PRODUCER, it's his JOB to get the best performance out of every player, singer, lyricist, etc...

Stevie could murder babies, and you'd all still have her back!

[FuzzyPlum]

I think it's a prime example of how people need to tread on eggshells around Stevie. For most people it would just be a run of the mill conversation; somebody makes a suggestion about some of her lyrics (no big deal)- most people would consider it for a while and either say 'yeah, I see where you're coming from' or 'no, b*gger off, that's how I want them. Now lets get on with it'. She didn't need to labour the point. My god, I bet that recording studio is a much happier and chilled out place to be these days.
As somebody else said, she now just wants to surround herself with yes-men.

[michelej1]

You are saying this assuming that the entire situation during SYW was caught on film and put on the DVD that we got to see. I suspect that there was MUCH more that happened that what made it to the final DVD. What he was saying to her wasn't pushing her to perform or hit notes or challenging her to write better songs...it was trying to make her conform to his writing style and what HE wants. Typical control freak Lindsey.

If there was something more incriminating that was left out of the SYW film, Stevie would have campaigned to keep it in or she would have divulged the fact that it was cult in her many interviews, since then. Moreover she would have mentioned it in her IYD film many years later when she was still complaining about the fact that Lindsey asked her about a pronoun. If she'd had anything else to complain about, she would have put it into IYD to strengthen her case (without Lindsey there to defend his position), especially since she had had a long time since the incident to think about it.

But no.... the only thing that raised her ire was that Thrown Down conversation and she's still patting herself on the back for the superb way she thinks she handled it.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

If there was something more incriminating that was left out of the SYW film, Stevie would have campaigned to keep it in or she would have divulged the fact that it was cult in her many interviews, since then. Moreover she would have mentioned it in her IYD film many years later when she was still complaining about the fact that Lindsey asked her about a pronoun. If she'd had anything else to complain about, she would have put it into IYD to strengthen her case (without Lindsey there to defend his position), especially since she had had a long time since the incident to think about it.

But no.... the only thing that raised her ire was that Thrown Down conversation and she's still patting herself on the back for the superb way she thinks she handled it.

Michele

Not only that, but I don't have to be there for the whole recording to understand what's going on. I've followed these people enough to fill in the blanks. She's not really good at hiding her pretension. I don't think she tries to do so.. and I'll give her that.

It's kind of like the burn bridges convo... You and I kept saying, "he misses her and that's why he's upset..." Then later find out that he was jumping in the limo asking Christine to stay.. and wanting her to record on the next album... and waiting for her to change her mind..

Reading between the lines is fun. errrrrrrrrrrrrr when you're good at it... lol

[dreamsunwind]

Not only that, but I don't have to be there for the whole recording to understand what's going on. I've followed these people enough to fill in the blanks. She's not really good at hiding her pretension. I don't think she tries to do so.. and I'll give her that.

It's kind of like the burn bridges convo... You and I kept saying, "he misses her and that's why he's upset..." Then later find out that he was jumping in the limo asking Christine to stay.. and wanting her to record on the next album... and waiting for her to change her mind..

Reading between the lines is fun. errrrrrrrrrrrrr when you're good at it... lol

I agree with what you're saying but tbh I never thought Lindsey was saying Christine burned her bridges or whatever else he was saying because he was secretly hurt she left or anything, he's really forward moving in that way. I think he wanted her to stay obviously but I don't think he was bitter or anything so he was saying things. That's just kinda the way he talks sometimes, he ends up sounding sort of uptight.

[lbfan]

I agree with what you're saying but tbh I never thought Lindsey was saying Christine burned her bridges or whatever else he was saying because he was secretly hurt she left or anything, he's really forward moving in that way. I think he wanted her to stay obviously but I don't think he was bitter or anything so he was saying things. That's just kinda the way he talks sometimes, he ends up sounding sort of uptight.

I thought I read that Christine not only sold all of her property/houses in America, but that she also sold the rights of her entire catalog of music. Obviously Lindsey loves metaphors (and to repeat them over and over) and he used the "burning of bridges" as the best way to describe her departure. I think he wanted her to stay, but saw the measures Christine was taking to separate herself from the insanity that can be Fleetwood Mac as so extreme, that he never thought she would return.

[michelej1]

It's kind of like the burn bridges convo... You and I kept saying, "he misses her and that's why he's upset..." Then later find out that he was jumping in the limo asking Christine to stay.. and wanting her to record on the next album... and waiting for her to change her mind..


We know sour grapes when we taste them.

Christine hadn't burned anything and, when asked to elaborate, he did give the spiel about her divorcing, selling her home, etc. But he is not a complete loon and knows the connotation of "burned her bridges" and he was being devilish to say that three million times, year after year and it was because he minded her having left and wished she hadn't.

As for the Bob Dylan conversation, when I saw In Your Dreams, I was like "Lindsey sure has fallen down on the job if he hasn't given her anything new to complain about in the last 10 years. From 2003-2013, that's the best insult from him she has to offer in this documentary of hers? Good heavens, man. You have lost your mettle."

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

As for the Bob Dylan conversation, when I saw In Your Dreams, I was like "Lindsey sure has fallen down on the job if he hasn't given her anything new to complain about in the last 10 years. From 2003-2013, that's the best insult from him she has to offer in this documentary of hers? Good heavens, man. You have lost your mettle."


well, (sigh), that's the tricky thing about those co-dependent relationships.... once one party decides not to play anymore the other is lost and doesn't know how to move on...so they keep trying to stir up the old familiar drama to get that feeling back (RS cover story, comments in the press, etc etc)... You now get to resent the other person for NOT playing along with the old sh&t

[elle]

well, (sigh), that's the tricky thing about those co-dependent relationships.... once one party decides not to play anymore the other is lost and doesn't know how to move on...so they keep trying to stir up the old familiar drama to get that feeling back (RS cover story, comments in the press, etc etc)... You now get to resent the other person for NOT playing along with the old sh&t
yes, and somebody here suggested that's exactly what's been happening the last few years: he's not taking the bait and is trying to give her whatever she wants to make it enjoyable for her to play in the sandbox with them. and she needs that old drama and resents this new peace-loving Lindsey.

[bwboy]

I love reading what Stevie's really feeling and thinking, from people who have never met her. It's hilarious reading this stuff, people are so sincere in their belief that they know why she says and does, well, everything. And Christine and Lindsey, too! That's the funniest part, that they take a clip from a movie and build a whole case or argument around it, and sincerely believe what they're saying is 100% gospel.

Please keep those theories coming, and also add more psychological terms, too. I' m serious, this is fun stuff!

[SteveMacD]

Reading between the lines is fun. errrrrrrrrrrrrr when you're good at it... lol
My favorite was when Lindsey kept the Christine cameos to a minimum and told her that she couldn't just come and go as being a commentary on his desire for her return.

It was kind of obvious to me that limiting the cameos was a contractual thing and that the rest was more about rejoining. Given the nature of her departure and the length of her absence, I never felt his initial skepticism was unwarranted. They worked hard to be accepted as Fleetwood Mac without her and didn't want to have to go through that again. But, given that she was okay with flying and playing live, I saw his position as being cautiously optimistic.

[michelej1]

My favorite was when Lindsey kept the Christine cameos to a minimum and told her that she couldn't just come and go as being a commentary on his desire for her return.

It was kind of obvious to me that limiting the cameos was a contractual thing and that the rest was more about rejoining. Given the nature of her departure and the length of her absence, I never felt his initial skepticism was unwarranted. They worked hard to be accepted as Fleetwood Mac without her and didn't want to have to go through that again. But, given that she was okay with flying and playing live, I saw his position as being cautiously optimistic.

And the come and go thing, was presented to the interviewer (by Stevie) out of context. It wasn't just about making a cameo during their concert. It was about her rejoining the band, only that cat was not out of the bag yet. That was before the public knew that Christine was thinking about returning. Lindsey wanted it clear that if she came back, she'd have to stay back. So, when they gave interviews about her return, we learned what was behind the "come and go" thing. He didn't want her to return for 6 months and then leave again. She responded to his concern by saying she was back for good. Until death do us part. Then, he was all on board. When Stevie relayed his "come and go" comment to the press, she wasn't providing the whole story.

Michele

[SteveMacD]

And the come and go thing, was presented to the interviewer (by Stevie) out of context. It wasn't just about making a cameo during their concert. It was about her rejoining the band, only that cat was not out of the bag yet. That was before the public knew that Christine was thinking about returning.
Maybe not the public, but the lead up to the cameos made it kind of obvious that she wanted to come back, at least to me.

I suspected that Christine was at least considering it when Ken made those comments about her reaction to his book, almost two years to the day prior to the Today show. Then, within a year of that was the trip to Hawaii and cameo with Mick's band, followed by the trip to L.A. to hang out with the band at rehearsals. Her willingness to even consider making cameos with Fleetwood Mac told me that her heart at least wanted back in, but the sheer joy in her face during those cameos told me she was ready.

[bombaysaffires]

I love reading what Stevie's really feeling and thinking, from people who have never met her. It's hilarious reading this stuff, people are so sincere in their belief that they know why she says and does, well, everything. And Christine and Lindsey, too! That's the funniest part, that they take a clip from a movie and build a whole case or argument around it, and sincerely believe what they're saying is 100% gospel.

Please keep those theories coming, and also add more psychological terms, too. I' m serious, this is fun stuff!

we don't have to make it up. the people who ARE around them have all said it-- Mick, Richard, Tom Petty, etc.....you know things like "they really push each other's buttons" (Mick, Christine) "they love each other but boy they really hate each other too" (Petty) etc etc.

[Angel75]

yes, and somebody here suggested that's exactly what's been happening the last few years: he's not taking the bait and is trying to give her whatever she wants to make it enjoyable for her to play in the sandbox with them. and she needs that old drama and resents this new peace-loving Lindsey.

Totally agree with you Elle. Stevie seems to continually and childlessly bait him in the press at the moment... And I would say is frustrated he isn't rising to it all. The Joe Walsh was my great love always comes out in interviews ( like this weeks Telegraph) when she's mad at LB but she gushes about their BN never ending love when he's playing her game.
I love S&N equally but Stevie is going to end her years a bitter lonely old woman if she doesn't grow up for once...

[jbrownsjr]

we don't have to make it up. the people who ARE around them have all said it-- Mick, Richard, Tom Petty, etc.....you know things like "they really push each other's buttons" (Mick, Christine) "they love each other but boy they really hate each other too" (Petty) etc etc.

Christine bluntly said in an interview just before the 2014 tour.. speaking on the B/N album. paraphrasing.. (their harmonies are so tight and beautiful and they get along musically so well... but, not in any other way these days.. (british laughter)"

I got blasted by the head shipper for posting that... and she said, "What does Christine know??!!!"

[lovethemac1]

Forgive my attempts to conjugate, but it basically seems to switch between:

1) Third Person Past
2) Third-Person Perfect (or Present) (or Future??)
3) Second-Person Present where "You" is EITHER
....a) Lindsey OR
....b) Stevie

So it's a total of four different tenses in one song. ... and yes it's beautiful

I got completely choked up reading this version of the lyrics for some reason, it just made it seem so much more visual. Maybe I'm tired.................sigh......

[lovethemac1]

Totally agree with you Elle. Stevie seems to continually and childlessly bait him in the press at the moment... And I would say is frustrated he isn't rising to it all. The Joe Walsh was my great love always comes out in interviews ( like this weeks Telegraph) when she's mad at LB but she gushes about their BN never ending love when he's playing her game.
I love S&N equally but Stevie is going to end her years a bitter lonely old woman if she doesn't grow up for once...

I think she's pissed that they didn't work out during The Dance and that he left her because Kristen was pregnant (from what speculation is out there). I think she is the epitome of a scorned woman. In some ways, you've got to feel bad for her, or not, your choice. But all of us have been on the losing end of a relationship at some point, and I bet she is just plain mad and ultimately, sad. That's why she keeps poking the bear.

[Angel75]

I think she's pissed that they didn't work out during The Dance and that he left her because Kristen was pregnant (from what speculation is out there). I think she is the epitome of a scorned woman. In some ways, you've got to feel bad for her, or not, your choice. But all of us have been on the losing end of a relationship at some point, and I bet she is just plain mad and ultimately, sad. That's why she keeps poking the bear.
Exactly this

[lilyfee]

I think she's pissed that they didn't work out during The Dance and that he left her because Kristen was pregnant (from what speculation is out there). I think she is the epitome of a scorned woman. In some ways, you've got to feel bad for her, or not, your choice. But all of us have been on the losing end of a relationship at some point, and I bet she is just plain mad and ultimately, sad. That's why she keeps poking the bear.

To be fair, he goads her on. Buckingham McVie, a clear reference to Buckingham Nicks? And in the press interview, going on about how wonderful it was to work on Christine's songs since he USED TO do that for Stevie? And even if he's saying wonderful things about her, I assume it gets on her nerves.:shrug:

[dreamsunwind]

To be fair, he goads her on. Buckingham McVie, a clear reference to Buckingham Nicks? And in the press interview, going on about how wonderful it was to work on Christine's songs since he USED TO do that for Stevie? And even if he's saying wonderful things about her, I assume it gets on her nerves.:shrug:

I can see why the name Buckingham McVie could rub the wrong way but there's really nothing wrong with him saying he used to work on Stevie's songs. It's literally just the truth. She publicly said that she didn't like Say You Will and the songs and she hasn't really worked with him in the studio ever since (Soldier's Angel being an exception, but Dave was still producer).

[jbrownsjr]

I can see why the name Buckingham McVie could rub the wrong way but there's really nothing wrong with him saying he used to work on Stevie's songs. It's literally just the truth. She publicly said that she didn't like Say You Will and the songs and she hasn't really worked with him in the studio ever since (Soldier's Angel being an exception, but Dave was still producer).

I think you're spot on. I can see why Buckingham/McVie would annoy her. But, I honestly think that wasn't intentional. And not everything revolves around B/N.

I truly believe she is no longer scorned. I think she just wants to do her own thing. It's awesome she included him in SA. Plus, she is in control of that situation. He can't tell her what to do. I think it's more of a pissing match than a romantic one.

[dreamsunwind]

I think you're spot on. I can see why Buckingham/McVie would annoy her. But, I honestly think that wasn't intentional. And not everything revolves around B/N.

I truly believe she is no longer scorned. I think she just wants to do her own thing. It's awesome she included him in SA. Plus, she is in control of that situation. He can't tell her what to do. I think it's more of a pissing match than a romantic one.

Exactly! ITA with all this. I don't think they meant anything bad by the title but I can see why someone wouldn't like it.
As for recording, I think it's been like this for a while, I read a lot of older interviews and he genuinely wanted to record but she just avoided it, even when they were on relatively good terms. She'd just rather do her solo work because she can have it exactly how she wants and not deal with the power struggle that comes with being in ANY band. Because that's the truth, every band had these types of conflicts, it's just how bands work kind of, they breed dysfunction. And also, I think that her creativity is at a dead end. I believe that if she releases another solo project, it will be another 24 Karat Gold and I think that'll be telling.

[jbrownsjr]

Exactly! ITA with all this. I don't think they meant anything bad by the title but I can see why someone wouldn't like it.
As for recording, I think it's been like this for a while, I read a lot of older interviews and he genuinely wanted to record but she just avoided it, even when they were on relatively good terms. She'd just rather do her solo work because she can have it exactly how she wants and not deal with the power struggle that comes with being in ANY band. Because that's the truth, every band had these types of conflicts, it's just how bands work kind of, they breed dysfunction. And also, I think that her creativity is at a dead end. I believe that if she releases another solo project, it will be another 24 Karat Gold and I think that'll be telling.

God another 24 Karat.... just put another solo album out if you want full control. No more demos!! Your voice was so different back then...

arghhhhhhh

[HomerMcvie]

God another 24 Karat.... just put another solo album out if you want full control. No more demos!! Your voice was so different back then...

arghhhhhhh

Me thinks her wellspring (among other things) have dried up on her.

[jbrownsjr]

Me thinks her wellspring (among other things) have dried up on her.

Her voice needs so much help. albeit, harmony, instrumentation, etc.
her piano banging and that voice.. it's so bad..

I did like the 2nd half of IYD.. Dave did a good job making the arrangments suit her voice of today.

But a song like Landslide (with today's voice).. it makes me want to faint.