Mirage & Tango In The Night (Remastered & Expanded)?

[Andrew Smith]

I've been asking this question for over ten years now since the reissues of the first three B/N era Fleetwood Mac albums were released back in 2004.

Mirage and (especially) Tango In The Night were very successful albums in the UK at least. I can't see remastered & expanded editions of these albums not selling well.

I did read on another forum a few years back that the original plan back in 2003/04 was to reissue the complete catalogue which is owned by Warner Music Group. This is the albums from 1969's Then Play On to 1995's Time. I'm not sure if this included the Live album from 1980.

I don't know how true this is or where this information was sourced from. If this is true there must have been a reason why they ditched this project and just decided to reissue Fleetwood Mac, Rumours and Tusk.

Tango In The Night has four non-album B-sides, 12" remixes of the singles released off the album, outtake tracks such as Special Kind Of Love, What Has Rock 'n' Roll Ever Done For You?, Joan Of Arc and more... plus demo versions of tracks from the album.

Mirage has one non-album B-side (Cool Water), the extended mix of Gypsy, Blue Monday, Goodbye Angel, If You Were My Love, Make Me A Mask, Teen Beat, Gypsy (Rock Version) and the original recording of Smile At You which was eventually re-recorded for the Say You Will album in 2003.

I've contacted Rhino at [email protected] on various occasions asking this same question and they always come back to me with the same answer, which is:

"We do not have any plans for these releases at present but I will put your request into our suggestion box."

Along comes 2013 and Warner decide to milk the Rumours album by reissuing it yet again! What was the point in that? The live material on CD2 of the 2013 reissue of Rumours would've fitted nicely on a reissue of the Fleetwood Mac Live album from 1980.

Warner/Rhino really need to sort their catalogue out.

What is going on here? Is it the record company, the band themselves or their management who don't want any reissues at the moment? There is so much material from the vaults that should be out there officially by now.

If anyone knows anything about what is happening here please throw some light on it. :distress:

Thanks

P.S. We already have people (not me or anyone I know) compiling their own remastered & expanded editions of Mirage and Tango In The Night...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuAwML-kHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRC-A6Isn0o

[SisterNightroad]

On this thread last spring has been posted links to the remasters made by Rhino in 2011, hosetd by HDtracks: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=1169688#post1169688

[Andrew Smith]

On this thread last spring has been posted links to the remasters made by Rhino in 2011, hosetd by HDtracks: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=1169688#post1169688

Thanks, but I already knew about those high resolution releases on HDtracks. They are downloads only and aren't available on any physical format. They also don't contain any extra bonus tracks at all. They don't even come with a digital booklet... just the album front cover. Having said that, I personally think the HDtracks edition of Mirage is superior to the original CD.

I'm talking about proper remastered & expanded editions like they did in 2004 with Fleetwood Mac (1975), Rumours (1977) and Tusk (1979).

[James Kirk]

I too hope they eventually release the Mirage and Tango in the Night remastered versions on CD, However, not if they are going to use the same mastering technique used on the other Fleetwood Mac remasters.

With these remasters being done in the early 2000’s they were created right at the time when the Loudness Wars were taking full flight.

Now apparently saner heads are starting to prevail in the mastering world and hopefully we have turned the corner from brick-walling and now back to proper remastering.

Case in point, let’s take a look at Hold Me, on the HD Tracks version it has a really nice DR rating of 13, now compared to the “remastered” version on The Very Best of Fleetwood Mac, that one is at a DR value of 7! That is terrible! They have compressed it is such a way that we have lost almost half of the Dynamic Range, what the Heck?!

I’m sorry but remastering to me means more than turning up the volume, compressing the heck out of it so people can listen to it on their iPhones over the sound of a bus, and then slapping on a “Remastered” sticker.

It’s like if Peter Jackson made sure Lord of the Rings looked really good on an iPhone, then worried about the theatrical presentation later.

If done properly I think a 2 CD edition of Mirage and Tango would be wonderful, I just have doubts that the powers that be will take the time to do it that way, judging from their re-re-re-re-releasing of only 1 album I don’t think quality is foremost on their minds.

I also just wanted to mention one last thing in regards to High Resolution music, HD Tracks do not make these downloads, Qobuz, HDTracks, Pono and Acoustic Sounds are all supplied the audio and artwork files from Warner, so if you have issues with the quality of either, the fault lies with Warner not the different download sites you choose to buy from. In previous threads on this issue the low quality artwork was perceived to be indicative of HDTracks not being a legitimate site, this is simply not true. They do with what they are given.

Now, that all being said, it would be so nice to be able to buy a CD and know that you are going to get the best sound possible, jumping through all these different hoops over he past few years trying to suss out what is the best sound quality is becoming tiring and prohibitively expensive. Look, if Steve Hoffman can be still mastering beautifully remastered CD’s there is no reason the rest of the industry can’t do it too. Heck, we have seen it done beautifully with the recent Tom Petty and Bruce Springsteen remasters, both are wonderful and an incredible improvement over the previous versions.

Here is hoping that corner has been turned and we can get some truly wonderful product for our money.

Rant over :)
Enjoy your Weekend Everyone!!!

[chiliD]

I'm talking about proper remastered & expanded editions like they did in 2004 with Fleetwood Mac (1975), Rumours (1977) and Tusk (1979).

With CD's quickly going the way of the cassette & VHS tape, I wouldn't place any bets on another expanded CD release coming out. Remastered digital versions with bonus tracks, most likely...but, not anytime soon. Once Fleetwood Mac finally fades into the great Penguin Colony in the sky (as a band, not mortally), we'll probably finally see the complete remastered/bonus track added catalogue update that has been previously "rumoured".

[James Kirk]

With CD's quickly going the way of the cassette & VHS tape, I wouldn't place any bets on another expanded CD release coming out. Remastered digital versions with bonus tracks, most likely...but, not anytime soon. Once Fleetwood Mac finally fades into the great Penguin Colony in the sky (as a band, not mortally), we'll probably finally see the complete remastered/bonus track added catalogue update that has been previously "rumoured".

I totally agree. It's unfortunate, but probably true.

[KarmaContestant]

The death of CDs is much hyped, but has no impact on reissues. A steady stream of CD and vinyl reissues are released every week. Super-deluxe is all the rage, these days, and every obscure band you've never heard of has had deluxe reissues, box sets and remasters.

Just not Stevie or Fleetwood Mac, who are always waiting to capitalize on some nontangible moment in time where they can maximize sales, which will never come.


http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/

[SisterNightroad]

Just not Stevie or Fleetwood Mac, who are always waiting to capitalize on some nontangible moment in time where they can maximize sales, which will never come.
And unfortunately that usually happens after the death or the permanent retirement of an artist or a band.

[James Kirk]

Just not Stevie or Fleetwood Mac, who are always waiting to capitalize on some nontangible moment in time where they can maximize sales, which will never come.




Which will never cease to amaze me. I mean for goodness sake the whole Buckingham Nicks re-release can only be described as a bloody fiasco at this point.

No DVD/Blu Ray releases in over 10 years? I think the last Fleetwood Mac video was Live in Boston if memory serves.

What are they waiting for? Oh sure we can all drown in Rumours re-releases but is that their only significant release? Is that all there is to their legacy? I think not.

It is vexing to be sure.

[PenguinHead]

The death of CDs is much hyped, but has no impact on reissues. A steady stream of CD and vinyl reissues are released every week. Super-deluxe is all the rage, these days, and every obscure band yous've never heard of has had deluxe reissues, box sets and remasters.

Just not Stevie or Fleetwood Mac, who are always waiting to capitalize on some nontangible moment in time where they can maximize sales, which will never come.


http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/

Thank you for dispelling the oft cited myth of the pending death of CDs. Also defying the myth is the revival of vinyl records! Despite the convenience of digital media, collectors/people still enjoy/want the physical rendering of their media.

The relationship to the product (including books) is more solid, more enhanced when you are able to hold it, feel it, display it. When you're just listening or reading it on your phone/tablet, you're less connected to it.

It's akin to social media. Even though you can communicate with someone via many different technological methods - nothing beats being in their physical presence.

[WayOfTheDragon]

However, not if they are going to use the same mastering technique used on the other Fleetwood Mac remasters.


I wholeheartedly agree. I actually sold my copy of the White Album 2004 remaster, because I was so disappointed with the sound quality. As I recall, it didn't have enough high end and sounded murky and lifeless-- the same with the Tusk remaster. They sounded like "rush jobs" done without much care to preserve the sound quality. These days, when it comes to Fleetwood Mac, I listen to anything but CDs-- if I want digital files, I can listen to vinyl rips or HDtracks downloads, and other than that I can just listen to the original albums on vinyl (or cassette)!

One thing I'd be interested in, if these albums were reissued, is some previously unheard material from the sessions. Given the lack of attention usually paid to Mirage and Tango by the band, I don't see it happening anytime soon. In the current era, there is tons of nostalgia for the 80s and 90s-- so much of the current synth pop is heavily influenced by 80s sounds, it seems like the right time for a reappraisal of Tango in particular.

[James Kirk]

In the current era, there is tons of nostalgia for the 80s and 90s-- so much of the current synth pop is heavily influenced by 80s sounds, it seems like the right time for a reappraisal of Tango in particular.

Yes, but you are applying logic and reasoning to what should be done, if we have learned anything from Fleetwood Mac is those to things seldom impact their releasing decisions. :)

In regards to your comment on the sound of Tusk there is a rumour floating around that the source of the HDTracks release of Tusk is a flat transfer of the aborted DVD-A 5.1 release. If this is the case it is a shame this was never released for that HD version is closest I have ever heard to my 1st LP pressing. Just wonderful quality.

Have a great weekend!

[starshine]

Which will never cease to amaze me. I mean for goodness sake the whole Buckingham Nicks re-release can only be described as a bloody fiasco at this point.

No DVD/Blu Ray releases in over 10 years? I think the last Fleetwood Mac video was Live in Boston if memory serves.

What are they waiting for? Oh sure we can all drown in Rumours re-releases but is that their only significant release? Is that all there is to their legacy? I think not.

It is vexing to be sure.I agree with you WHAT are THEY waiting for all of them??? the group the big wigs who knows but to me the TIME has always been NOW not 10 to 20 yrs from now when no of us will care or the other alternative which is really sad. There is still some sort of fan base now. Really I'll never understand what 'they' are being told or probably if they really care. Either way its just sad. We should have great quality on all the music and DVD items but nothing. No rarities released for there solo works much really (well expect Stevie's 24 K Gold no Lindsay Box set etc). Except little bits here or there. Same for the music --we know there are more Tusk etc outtakes alternates for all there LP/cds but yet we get Rumours for what the 20th time. Talk about milking that cow. OK I know its there 'cash cow' but come on--heck Stevie didn't even release an awesome rarities box set for the 25 or 30 anniversary for Bella Donna with many cds alternates outtakes and a nice DVD set and a rare outtake photo booklet. So much could be done but just isn't and I wouldn't hold my breath either. If I knew how I'd make one up myself but thats not gonna happen --if I had the $$ for it. Oh well, its sad cause there missing the boat to me. Sorry for the rant. :shrug::D

[Andrew Smith]

Yes, but you are applying logic and reasoning to what should be done, if we have learned anything from Fleetwood Mac is those to things seldom impact their releasing decisions. :)

In regards to your comment on the sound of Tusk there is a rumour floating around that the source of the HDTracks release of Tusk is a flat transfer of the aborted DVD-A 5.1 release. If this is the case it is a shame this was never released for that HD version is closest I have ever heard to my 1st LP pressing. Just wonderful quality.

Have a great weekend!

You are correct. Tusk was going to be released on DVD-Audio. They even created a new 5.1 surround sound mix of the album from the original multi-tracks. Lindsey was heavily involved with this project.

In an interview a few years ago he was asked why it hasn't been released. He said that although the project was completed Warner were reluctant to put it out. He didn't give a reason as to why Warner ditched the idea of releasing it.

I'm guessing that it was because the DVD-Audio format was fading fast. It's virtually a redundant format now.

[Andrew Smith]

With CD's quickly going the way of the cassette & VHS tape, I wouldn't place any bets on another expanded CD release coming out. Remastered digital versions with bonus tracks, most likely...but, not anytime soon. Once Fleetwood Mac finally fades into the great Penguin Colony in the sky (as a band, not mortally), we'll probably finally see the complete remastered/bonus track added catalogue update that has been previously "rumoured".

CDs are quickly going the same way as cassettes and VHS video tape? That's news to me.

CD reissues and box sets are being released all the time. In fact, over the last few years it seems that CD re-releases of particular albums and CD box set releases of archive material have increased.

This makes the fact that Mirage and Tango In The Night not having been remastered and expanded yet seem even more odd.

As mentioned by another forum member above... there is a big demand amongst certain music fans to have some sort of physical product when it comes to buying an album rather than just settling for a download.

[KarmaContestant]

Thank you for dispelling the oft cited myth of the pending death of CDs. Also defying the myth is the revival of vinyl records! Despite the convenience of digital media, collectors/people still enjoy/want the physical rendering of their media.

The relationship to the product (including books) is more solid, more enhanced when you are able to hold it, feel it, display it. When you're just listening or reading it on your phone/tablet, you're less connected to it.


I agree wholeheartedly.

[KarmaContestant]

In the current era, there is tons of nostalgia for the 80s and 90s-- so much of the current synth pop is heavily influenced by 80s sounds, it seems like the right time for a reappraisal of Tango in particular.

Yes! I hear Lindsey's Mirage sounds all over the place these days.

[Andrew Smith]

I believe strongly that reissues of these albums would sell well, so if the band themselves or Warner are worrying that they won't sell, they shouldn't.

The more people who email Rhino at [email protected] requesting these re-releases the better. Get that suggestion box of theirs overflowing, although it should doing that already. :)

[PenguinHead]

I believe strongly that reissues of these albums would sell well, so if the band themselves or Warner are worrying that they won't sell, they shouldn't.

The more people who email Rhino at [email protected] requesting these re-releases the better. Get that suggestion box of theirs overflowing, although it should doing that already. :)

The re-releases are certain to sell well among a world-wide legion of die-hard fans. The albums may not make the charts again, but that isn't the main intention. With minimal expense, the record company will still make a decent margin of profit from a repackaged product.

I suspect these reissues (and their sales numbers) matter little to the band members. They mattered more to them at the time when the albums were initially released.

[Wdm6789]

It would be awesome to have super deluxe editions of Mirage and Tango like they did for Rumours. Outtakes and early cuts and live performances. The only thing I wouldn't like is Lindsey being absent from Tango live versions. He should have done the Tango tour.

[Andrew Smith]

It would be awesome to have super deluxe editions of Mirage and Tango like they did for Rumours. Outtakes and early cuts and live performances. The only thing I wouldn't like is Lindsey being absent from Tango live versions. He should have done the Tango tour.

The Tango In The Night tour has already been released on DVD, so I doubt they will include this DVD again on a remastered & expanded edition of Tango In The Night (if that ever happens).

On the DVD the live show features Rick Vito and Billy Burnette in place of Lindsey. It was filmed at San Francisco's Cow Palace in December 1987.

I agree that Lindsey should've done that tour. If he wanted to leave Fleetwood Mac at that time he obviously had the right to do so, although he should've done the Tango In The Night tour first and then quit.

[annabellee]

If you don't quit badgering Lindsey for not being on the Tango tour, we're bound to hear another "survival" speech, isn't that weird?

[James Kirk]

If you don't quit badgering Lindsey for not being on the Tango tour, we're bound to hear another "survival" speech, isn't that weird?

LOL, you just made Coca-Cola come out of me nose :laugh:

[annabellee]

LOL, you just made Coca-Cola come out of me nose :laugh:

You're my new BFF! I needed that. I was having a miserable night and that post probably wasn't fair, but only a FM friend would get it!

[James Kirk]

You're my new BFF! I needed that. I was having a miserable night and that post probably wasn't fair, but only a FM friend would get it!

Any time :D

[Andyleo]

I am doing the meet & greet with Mick in a few weeks time, I am considering asking who decides on these things and if he would like to see those two stellar albums remastered. I'm worried it could just be a wasted question. Any thoughts?:wavey:

[mylittledemon]

I am doing the meet & greet with Mick in a few weeks time, I am considering asking who decides on these things and if he would like to see those two stellar albums remastered. I'm worried it could just be a wasted question. Any thoughts?:wavey:

Good questions. I've always wanted/wondered why we haven't gotten The Dance in blu-ray widescreen format. It may have something to do with the way they filmed it back in '97... but damn, I'd imagine it could look so much better.

[James Kirk]

Good questions. I've always wanted/wondered why we haven't gotten The Dance in blu-ray widescreen format. It may have something to do with the way they filmed it back in '97... but damn, I'd imagine it could look so much better.

Hi Mylittledemon,

I think the main issues with The Dance not being released in a Widescreen and high resolution format such as Blu Ray, and I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong, is that it was originally filmed in a standard NTSC video format meaning there is no High Definition Master to transfer to Blu Ray.

Also it was filmed in the 4:3 aspect ratio so that if they wanted to create a Widescreen 16:9 aspect ratio they would have to cut the top and bottom off the image to conform to the widescreen format.

However, that being said would I think would be an interesting alternative is the Live in Boston 2003 DVD.

Now that, to the best of my knowledge, was filmed in High Definition and was also done in the 16:9 widescreen aspect ratio. So that is a really good candidate for Blu Ray.

It also would not have to be spread over 2 DVD’s and theoretically would have a greatly enhanced picture and sound quality, and finally have a proper anamorphic transfer so it is not pillar boxed on widescreen T.V.s as the DVD version is.

It is unfortunate regarding The Dance however, I remember back in 1997 and 1998 I could not go into any electronic store without seeing it displayed on some TV, that was a really fun and exciting time to be a fan. Great memories travelling over the US seeing different shows. Lots of fun. :)

[mylittledemon]

Hi Mylittledemon,

I think the main issues with The Dance not being released in a Widescreen and high resolution format such as Blu Ray, and I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong, is that it was originally filmed in a standard NTSC video format meaning there is no High Definition Master to transfer to Blu Ray.

Also it was filmed in the 4:3 aspect ratio so that if they wanted to create a Widescreen 16:9 aspect ratio they would have to cut the top and bottom off the image to conform to the widescreen format.
:)

Hmm. Bunch of maroons. What were they thinking? Hell, Scorsese was doing widescreen 20 years earlier when they filmed The Last Waltz. :distress:

[James Kirk]

Hmm. Bunch of maroons. What were they thinking? Hell, Scorsese was doing widescreen 20 years earlier when they filmed The Last Waltz. :distress:

I know, right? :)
But remember the Last Waltz was meant to be a theatrical film and The Dance was just for late 90's home video release.

Widescreen TV's in North America at that time still were not the norm, VHS was still around so...

But I agree, maroons, they should have seen it coming, heck even some TV shows started to film in widescreen or at least film protected for widescreen for potential home video release.

Unfortunate but what can ya do?

I just hope they get some of current tour filmed in HD and released on Blu Ray, having all 5 of them back together I can't see this NOT happening.

[Macfanforever]

Yes .Widescreen with film was around for along time like back in the golden age of of Hollywood .Video was in its heyday here in the states when the Dance was taped.

Probably would be too expensive if the concert was filmed in widescreen film instead of videotape.

To bad The Dance was not filmed live in Imax 70 mm film and later transferred to DVD and then to Blueray.

I'm not a fan Stretch-O-Vision when they take a 4.3 movie or TV show and stretch it to 16.9.See to much of that on Youtube.

To my knowledge .Its sad already that nothing has been done with pro shot filming with this current tour.Atlease we have the YT fan footage for keepers for a souvenir from this tour.

[Macfanforever]

The Tango In The Night tour has already been released on DVD, so I doubt they will include this DVD again on a remastered & expanded edition of Tango In The Night (if that ever happens).

On the DVD the live show features Rick Vito and Billy Burnette in place of Lindsey. It was filmed at San Francisco's Cow Palace in December 1987.

I agree that Lindsey should've done that tour. If he wanted to leave Fleetwood Mac at that time he obviously had the right to do so, although he should've done the Tango In The Night tour first and then quit.

I agree.Lindsey should of hang on until the Tango thing was all done.
All of our VHS's are shot including the Showtime aired copies that we self recorded.

The DVD could be remasted to Blueray along with the Mirage show.

[Andrew Smith]

I am doing the meet & greet with Mick in a few weeks time, I am considering asking who decides on these things and if he would like to see those two stellar albums remastered. I'm worried it could just be a wasted question. Any thoughts?:wavey:

Please could you asking him about remastered & expanded versions of the Fleetwood Mac catalogue which is under Warner Music Group?

The albums I'm referring to are all the ones from Then Play On (1969) to Behind The Mask (1990), but excluding Fleetwood Mac (1975), Rumours (1977) and Tusk (1979) as these have already been remastered and expanded.

It would be interesting to hear what he has to say on this subject.

[Andrew Smith]

Hi Mylittledemon,

I think the main issues with The Dance not being released in a Widescreen and high resolution format such as Blu Ray, and I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong, is that it was originally filmed in a standard NTSC video format meaning there is no High Definition Master to transfer to Blu Ray.

Also it was filmed in the 4:3 aspect ratio so that if they wanted to create a Widescreen 16:9 aspect ratio they would have to cut the top and bottom off the image to conform to the widescreen format.

However, that being said would I think would be an interesting alternative is the Live in Boston 2003 DVD.

Now that, to the best of my knowledge, was filmed in High Definition and was also done in the 16:9 widescreen aspect ratio. So that is a really good candidate for Blu Ray.

It also would not have to be spread over 2 DVD’s and theoretically would have a greatly enhanced picture and sound quality, and finally have a proper anamorphic transfer so it is not pillar boxed on widescreen T.V.s as the DVD version is.

It is unfortunate regarding The Dance however, I remember back in 1997 and 1998 I could not go into any electronic store without seeing it displayed on some TV, that was a really fun and exciting time to be a fan. Great memories travelling over the US seeing different shows. Lots of fun. :)

This would depend if The Dance was filmed or recorded to video. If it was filmed they could scan the original negatives to 1080 HD and release it on Blu-ray. This would look a lot better than the standard DVD.

However, by watching The Dance it looks like it was recorded to video. If this is the case it will be impossible to create an HD version. In 1997 they weren't recording shows to video in 1080 HD.

The Rosebud film from 1977 was shot on film, so provided the original negatives still exist they could restore them and then scan them to 1080 HD and release this concert on Blu-ray.

I believe it's only currently available on DVD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[sorcerer999]

I'm just amazed that, barring the 35th Ann Edition of Rumours that came out a year late, Warner Brothers hasn't tried to release or re-master anything from the band in the last 11 years. They've gone on three "oldies" tours since then with nothing to promote. Couldn't Warners at least given us physical copies of a re-mastered Mirage or Tango with outtakes, etc? Or maybe even a DVD of all the music videos? Or the Rosebud film on DVD by itself?

I personally would LOVE to own the Rosebud DVD but of course it's only available with the SUPER DELUXE edition of Rumours and I'm (nor any of my closest FMac fans/friends) not going to shell out all that $$$ for that DVD, seeing as how most of us already own both the 2004 re-master and the vinyl.

[iamnotafraid]

However, by watching The Dance it looks like it was recorded to video. If this is the case it will be impossible to create an HD version. In 1997 they weren't recording shows to video in 1080 HD.



I believe it to be video tape. Par for the course as
film cost too much.

But a new Blu ray version of all their "video" taped
concerts could show improvement over what we've
seen, if someone cared to take the time to do it right.
But that cost $$$.

For me it would be worth it for the audio alone. A DTS
or Dolby Digital master from the multi-track tapes. I'd
buy it.

I am afraid we're stuck with the 4:3 aspect ratio. And
stretching Stevie is not a good idea.

[Andrew Smith]

I believe it to be video tape. Par for the course as
film cost too much.

But a new Blu ray version of all their "video" taped
concerts could show improvement over what we've
seen, if someone cared to take the time to do it right.
But that cost $$$.

For me it would be worth it for the audio alone. A DTS
or Dolby Digital master from the multi-track tapes. I'd
buy it.

I am afraid we're stuck with the 4:3 aspect ratio. And
stretching Stevie is not a good idea.

Is the stereo track on the DVD PCM? Also, does it feature a 5.1 surround sound mix?

If so, PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) is actually superior to Dolby Digital and DTS in terms of audio quality. These are both lossy compression formats. PCM is uncompressed audio (the same as CD audio quality if it's a 16bit/44.1kHz PCM track).

Both Dolby Digital and DTS are usually used for 5.1 soundtracks as they take up less space on a DVD than PCM does. A 5.1 surround sound track in PCM wouldn't fit onto a single DVD. It would however fit onto a Blu-ray disc.

Most music DVDs have a stereo PCM track rather than a Dolby Digital stereo track for this reason.

I believe Blu-ray discs feature lossless audio compression formats for both stereo and surround sound tracks, so a 5.1 surround sound mix should sound better on a Blu-ray release than on a standard DVD release.

[James Kirk]

Is the stereo track on the DVD PCM? Also, does it feature a 5.1 surround sound mix?

If so, PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) is actually superior to Dolby Digital and DTS in terms of audio quality. These are both lossy compression formats. PCM is uncompressed audio (the same as CD audio quality if it's a 16bit/44.1kHz PCM track).

Both Dolby Digital and DTS are usually used for 5.1 soundtracks as they take up less space on a DVD than PCM does. A 5.1 surround sound track in PCM wouldn't fit onto a single DVD. It would however fit onto a Blu-ray disc.

Most music DVDs have a stereo PCM track rather than a Dolby Digital stereo track for this reason.

I believe Blu-ray discs feature lossless audio compression formats for both stereo and surround sound tracks, so a 5.1 surround sound mix should sound better on a Blu-ray release than on a standard DVD release.


Good Evening Andrew,

Now if memory serves on one side of the DVD was a PCM 2 Channel [16bit – 48kHz] track and the other side of the DVD was a AC3 5.1 [48kHz] audio mix but it has been a while since I checked it out so I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Hope this helps

Have a good night

[Andrew Smith]

I'm just amazed that, barring the 35th Ann Edition of Rumours that came out a year late, Warner Brothers hasn't tried to release or re-master anything from the band in the last 11 years. They've gone on three "oldies" tours since then with nothing to promote. Couldn't Warners at least given us physical copies of a re-mastered Mirage or Tango with outtakes, etc? Or maybe even a DVD of all the music videos? Or the Rosebud film on DVD by itself?

I personally would LOVE to own the Rosebud DVD but of course it's only available with the SUPER DELUXE edition of Rumours and I'm (nor any of my closest FMac fans/friends) not going to shell out all that $$$ for that DVD, seeing as how most of us already own both the 2004 re-master and the vinyl.

I agree, the 2013 edition of Rumours was totally unnecessary. They were just cashing in on the Rumours name. Like you said, the Rosebud film could've been released on DVD and Blu-ray separately. I'm quite happy with the 2004 remastered & expanded edition of Rumours.

This live tracks on CD2 of the 2013 Super Deluxe Edition of Rumours were recorded during the Rumours tour, so they would've fitted nicely on to a remastered & expanded version of Fleetwood Mac Live (1980). This album featured live tracks from both the Rumours and Tusk tours.

[iamnotafraid]

Good Evening Andrew,

Now if memory serves on one side of the DVD was a PCM 2 Channel [16bit – 48kHz] track and the other side of the DVD was a AC3 5.1 [48kHz] audio mix...

The sticker on the cover says "Double Sided Disc, Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround,
Backed with PCM Stereo".

It's been so long since I played it, that I couldn't remember the specs.

What I do remember was that it wasn't ever spectacular looking.
I've got it on DVD and laser disc.

[PenguinHead]

I agree.Lindsey should of hang on until the Tango thing was all done.
All of our VHS's are shot including the Showtime aired copies that we self recorded.

The DVD could be remasted to Blueray along with the Mirage show.

Lindsey was completely burned out after making the Tango album. He was very astute in his explanation for taking a break from the band. He said that the dysfunctional atmosphere in the studio would just be magnified on the road. He felt like he fulfilled his responsibility to them by producing the album: it was a heavy and frustrating commitment. He was justified to make the decision to bail out on a tour. The album was still a huge commercial success.

In the time-honored tradition of perseverance, Mick made sure Fleetwood Mac moved onward. Unlike other members who have passed through the band, Lindsey, Stevie and Christine are the only ones who have left, but eventually came back! There is no band quite like them!:D

Even without Lindsey, the tours with Rick and Billy were successful. The live performances that recorded and initially released on VHS tape, show that they still remained a viable band despite the shift in chemistry. I only wished that it featured the complete show, without Stevie's post-show filmed close ups (similar to her Red Rocks video).

I would like to assume that the entire show was filmed, and all of it still exists. In the unlikelihood it will be re-released, it would be nice to see the whole concert. The same goes for the Mirage tour film.

[Macfanforever]

Lindsey was completely burned out after making the Tango album. He was very astute in his explanation for taking a break from the band. He said that the dysfunctional atmosphere in the studio would just be magnified on the road. He felt like he fulfilled his responsibility to them by producing the album: it was a heavy and frustrating commitment. He was justified to make the decision to bail out on a tour. The album was still a huge commercial success.

In the time-honored tradition of perseverance, Mick made sure Fleetwood Mac moved onward. Unlike other members who have passed through the band, Lindsey, Stevie and Christine are the only ones who have left, but eventually came back! There is no band quite like them!:D

Even without Lindsey, the tours with Rick and Billy were successful. The live performances that recorded and initially released on VHS tape, show that they still remained a viable band despite the shift in chemistry. I only wished that it featured the complete show, without Stevie's post-show filmed close ups (similar to her Red Rocks video).

I would like to assume that the entire show was filmed, and all of it still exists. In the unlikelihood it will be re-released, it would be nice to see the whole concert. The same goes for the Mirage tour film.

Thanks for pointing that out.I'm still alittle hazy over the Tango thing with him.

[FuzzyPlum]

In the time-honored tradition of perseverance, Mick made sure Fleetwood Mac moved onward. Unlike other members who have passed through the band, Lindsey, Stevie and Christine are the only ones who have left, but eventually came back! There is no band quite like them!:D



Sorry to be pedantic, but I think it could be argued Billy left and came back too.

[HomerMcvie]

In the time-honored tradition of perseverance, Mick made sure Fleetwood Mac moved onward. Unlike other members who have passed through the band, Lindsey, Stevie and Christine are the only ones who have left, but eventually came back! There is no band quite like them!:D



For Lindsey at least, Big Machine makes Big Money, which he isn't going to make solo. Raising a family isn't cheap!

[KarmaContestant]

Lindsey was completely burned out after making the Tango album. He was very astute in his explanation for taking a break from the band. He said that the dysfunctional atmosphere in the studio would just be magnified on the road. He felt like he fulfilled his responsibility to them by producing the album: it was a heavy and frustrating commitment. He was justified to make the decision to bail out on a tour. The album was still a huge commercial success.

In the time-honored tradition of perseverance, Mick made sure Fleetwood Mac moved onward. Unlike other members who have passed through the band, Lindsey, Stevie and Christine are the only ones who have left, but eventually came back! There is no band quite like them!:D



What if: Instead of hiring Billy and Rick and hitting the road, Mick had instead recognized that Lindsey needed a break, said "No hard feelings. We love you. Take as long as you need." and just cancelled the entire tour?

Hiring Billy and Rick was probably deemed necessary at the time, if only for purely financial reasons; i.e. the tour revenue. I wonder how much further that pushed Lindsey away, by providing a definite finality to the situation that might not have otherwise been there.

[PenguinHead]

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think it could be argued Billy left and came back too.

Hey Plum, thank you for being pedantic! That fine point escaped my fuzzy memory.

[Macfan4life]

What if: Instead of hiring Billy and Rick and hitting the road, Mick had instead recognized that Lindsey needed a break, said "No hard feelings. We love you. Take as long as you need." and just cancelled the entire tour?

Hiring Billy and Rick was probably deemed necessary at the time, if only for purely financial reasons; i.e. the tour revenue. I wonder how much further that pushed Lindsey away, by providing a definite finality to the situation that might not have otherwise been there.
That is correct. Mick talks about this in his first book. Lindsey threw it in Mick's face that night that he did not need to tour and the money that Mick needed (meaning Mick was trying to get out of bankruptcy).
However after a successful album and being away for so long, how could you resist not touring even for a small tour.

[Mr Scarrott]

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think it could be argued Billy left and came back too.

and to be hyper-pedantic, Peter came back, albeit temporarily, in 1971 when Jeremy left. :sorry:

[PenguinHead]

What if: Instead of hiring Billy and Rick and hitting the road, Mick had instead recognized that Lindsey needed a break, said "No hard feelings. We love you. Take as long as you need." and just cancelled the entire tour?

Hiring Billy and Rick was probably deemed necessary at the time, if only for purely financial reasons; i.e. the tour revenue. I wonder how much further that pushed Lindsey away, by providing a definite finality to the situation that might not have otherwise been there.

I like your interesting assumptions! I doubt there was any assurance Lindsey would return to the group; he left on his own terms of self preservation. Mick's main concern has always been to keep the Fleetwood Mac brand alive and fluid, in whatever form. After all, the music industry is a business. For Mick to remain in the business, he needs an active band; bringing Billy and Rick into the ring was just par for course.

When Peter Green departed from the group, it was the first huge blow to them and their fans, since he was the defining leader/main draw of the band. Mick wasn't holding out for Peter's return -- his pattern was to just admirably move on and on, despite the numerous upheavals. He eventually hit pay dirt with the Lindsey and Stevie configuration.

Tango in the Night was a commercial success. From a business prospective, it would have been foolish to not to capitalize on that momentum with a tour. Mick's "on with the show" mentality, not surprisingly, prevailed. It's pretty amazing that after a few more slightly drastic shake ups, the band, in it's most popular and successful configuration, is back intact. Fleetwood Mac, in the entirety of its circuitous history, is peerless; a band like no other.

[michelej1]

What if: Instead of hiring Billy and Rick and hitting the road, Mick had instead recognized that Lindsey needed a break, said "No hard feelings. We love you. Take as long as you need." and just cancelled the entire tour?

Hiring Billy and Rick was probably deemed necessary at the time, if only for purely financial reasons; i.e. the tour revenue. I wonder how much further that pushed Lindsey away, by providing a definite finality to the situation that might not have otherwise been there.

In Mick's book, he mentions how Lindsey left the house after the big fight, but he didn't just drive off. He sat in his car for a long time. Mick thought Lindsey wanted them to come out there after him, but everyone was so mad that no overtures were made. There is a sense that if a little time had passed, the break could not have been avoided, but it might not have been as brutal. Michele

[brucewayne]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I had a question about these. Keep in mind, I don't really know what I'm talking about here lol

So the prior FM remasters sound GRRRREAT in my car. I feel the drums, the bass, everything is crystal clear and nice. How do these HDtracks remasters of Mirage and Tango compare with those previous remasters?

I just don't wanna be disappointed in the quality if I buy these two albums again...

[James Kirk]

Good Day brucewayne,

The quick answer is YES, the HD Tracks versions are superior to the original albums (Mirage more so, Tango already sounded pretty good) and also in my opinion better than the tracks that appeared on the Very Best of Fleetwood Mac (they are not Brickwalled and with clipped high end and loss of Dynamic Range)

Here is a good video that describes Brickwalling and the Loudness Wars that makes so much of what is called remastering rather unappealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9xXzTjBt5c&feature=youtu.be

However and this is a big HOWEVER, it all depends on how you are going to be listening to these HD versions.

If you are listening primarily in your car then unless your car stereo is set up with the ability to play back High Resolution recordings of 192kHz 24 bit (Mirage) or 96kHz 24bit (Tango) then the increase in quality may not be as apparent.

Yes, you do get a remastered version of both albums that is as close to a flat transfer as possible with no clipping, greater dynamic range and in the case of Mirage all songs are of an equal volume level. I found the original CD irritating as I was constantly having to change the volume between tracks.
But the real benefit to the HD Tracks and other High Resolution recordings become much greater when played back on equipment capable of decoding the greater resolution.

I’m sorry I could not give you a definite yes or no to your questions but there are just too many variables.

In my case I am listing to my HD tracks through my portable High Resolution Player The Fiio x5 or through my Oppo system when I want to listen at home and the A/B testing between the original CD and the HDTracks versions is astounding.

At the end of the day the mastering of the HDTracks is wonderful when compared to the original CD’s or especially to that “Remastered” Best of Fleetwood Mac 2 CD set that really is a rather uncomfortable listen for me due to the Brickwalling.

If you have any more questions concerning this issue please feel free to ask. I have been collecting HD recordings for quite a few years now and really enjoy the increase in quality.

[brucewayne]

Good Day brucewayne,

The quick answer is YES, the HD Tracks versions are superior to the original albums (Mirage more so, Tango already sounded pretty good) and also in my opinion better than the tracks that appeared on the Very Best of Fleetwood Mac (they are not Brickwalled and with clipped high end and loss of Dynamic Range)

Here is a good video that describes Brickwalling and the Loudness Wars that makes so much of what is called remastering rather unappealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9xXzTjBt5c&feature=youtu.be

However and this is a big HOWEVER, it all depends on how you are going to be listening to these HD versions.

If you are listening primarily in your car then unless your car stereo is set up with the ability to play back High Resolution recordings of 192kHz 24 bit (Mirage) or 96kHz 24bit (Tango) then the increase in quality may not be as apparent.

Yes, you do get a remastered version of both albums that is as close to a flat transfer as possible with no clipping, greater dynamic range and in the case of Mirage all songs are of an equal volume level. I found the original CD irritating as I was constantly having to change the volume between tracks.
But the real benefit to the HD Tracks and other High Resolution recordings become much greater when played back on equipment capable of decoding the greater resolution.

I’m sorry I could not give you a definite yes or no to your questions but there are just too many variables.

In my case I am listing to my HD tracks through my portable High Resolution Player The Fiio x5 or through my Oppo system when I want to listen at home and the A/B testing between the original CD and the HDTracks versions is astounding.

At the end of the day the mastering of the HDTracks is wonderful when compared to the original CD’s or especially to that “Remastered” Best of Fleetwood Mac 2 CD set that really is a rather uncomfortable listen for me due to the Brickwalling.

If you have any more questions concerning this issue please feel free to ask. I have been collecting HD recordings for quite a few years now and really enjoy the increase in quality.

Thanks! So being a simpleton with this stuff...

I'll probably just listen to these on my computer and in my car. Or by making mix CDs for when I drive (yes I still do this lol). When putting it next to a track from, say, the recent Tusk reissue...it wouldn't sound much different than the originally released CDs? Like, the bass, the drums, all that, wouldn't be as defined as in the Tusk and Rumours reissues?

[James Kirk]

Hi brucewayne,

No, in fact the HD version of Tusk is what is know as a flat transfer, meaning it is a direct transfer from the studio masters so it is as close to what they heard in the studio while making it and in my opinion if vastly superior to the Remastered CD's that came out in the early 2000 as well as the current new Tusk box set. The new box set version I find is better the the 2000 remasters but the HD tracks still edges it out.

The HD versions just seem to have more depth and space in the recordings.

Now you mentioned that you will be listening primarily on your Computer or by burning to CD.

If you are listening on your computer you should have no problem if you have a good sound card in decoding the HD versions however you will not be able to transfer the HD versions directly to CD without down converting them to CD format.

The HD versions are at such a higher bit rate (24 bit as compared to CD 16bit) and a greater kHz (192 or 96 kHz depending on the HD album compare to a CD that is at I believe 44.1kHz)

Note that when you down convert you will be losing a lot of the benefit of having a HD track but the mastering is still in my opinion to any other currently available version, especially in the case of say Mirage.

To down convert all you need is a piece of software such as dBpoweramp. It even has pre-sets for CD conversion, simply load your HD Tracks and choose CD as you output, it will convert them to a file format that your regular CD burning software will understand.

However at the end of the day all this is really subjective and up to the individual listener. Personally I love the HD Tracks versions as I find it gets them back to how they originally sounded before all the poor remastering and brickwalling was applied.
That being said a lot of people do like a louder more "in your face" version that the current remastered version seem to do the trick, they are just not for me.

Hope this helps.
have a great day! :)