Hard Advice / That Made Me Stronger

[StreetAngel86]

are these songs about Lindsey?
I mean they were written circa Twisted ...

I would have said the rehab dude ala For What It's Worth... but he's not a singer is he?

and every song that's not about Lindsey is about Joe W right? :lol: <puke>
when was the last time Stevie had anything proper to do with him?

seriously, who are these songs about?

[Aussie W/Heart]

Tom P ;) for sure

[UndoingTheLaces]

Tom is the guy who's given her the "hard advice" but I'm not sure who the man she's trying to get over is. Has there ever been a life sized paper doll of Lindsay? LOL.

[welcomechris]

are these songs about Lindsey?
I mean they were written circa Twisted ...

I would have said the rehab dude ala For What It's Worth... but he's not a singer is he?

and every song that's not about Lindsey is about Joe W right? :lol: <puke>
when was the last time Stevie had anything proper to do with him?

seriously, who are these songs about?

Hi, with some old articles and new ones I've gotten you the most educated answer

Both of those songs were written at a dinner Stevie had with the heartbreakers in 1994. Stevie said to tom that "She was having trouble writing music lately because she was going through relationship troubles and was struggling to get over her Klonopin addiction. She wanted tom to write her a song and tom said "You have to get over this, I won't write you a song because you can write songs by yourself. There is nothing wrong with you, so go write a real song tonight." The part in Hard Advice

I believe the part when she sings

Another famous friend told me, "love does end, make a clean break" part is about Lindsey but the rest of the song is based off of that conversation.

[StreetAngel86]

Tom P ;) for sure


this is gross. but that's what i thought initially too.
except why would she go TO him ... :lol:

he's the only one i could think of who would legit be worthy of a "doll" lol

[Dex]

Someone posted a life-sized paper doll of Joe Walsh found in a record store a few weeks ago, in another thread. :laugh:

Frankly the entire concept of large paper cutouts of people is one I find a little creepy, which is why its a lyric I really wish she'd changed. Who buys that crap? Who thinks it's a good idea to manufacture it? Well, apparently Stevie does, because she had to be told explicitly not to buy it at the end of the song. Something I rather wish I didn't know about her.

[vivfox]

Someone posted a life-sized paper doll of Joe Walsh found in a record store a few weeks ago, in another thread. :laugh:

Frankly the entire concept of large paper cutouts of people is one I find a little creepy, which is why its a lyric I really wish she'd changed. Who buys that crap? Who thinks it's a good idea to manufacture it? Well, apparently Stevie does, because she had to be told explicitly not to buy it at the end of the song. Something I rather wish I didn't know about her.

LOL IMHO, that is not the doll she is referring to in the song when she sings, "don't buy that doll." There was a space in time when Stevie would carry with her one of those life like baby dolls. She said in an interview she wanted to have a baby around 1991. I read many Ledgie's remarks about being creeped out by those dolls. I believe it was Tom telling her not to buy those dolls anymore. They were probably very expensive also.

If it was the lifelike paper doll of the rock star from the record store, I'm sure the manager would have gladly given it to her had she asked for it. I was often given record store posters and stand up cut outs back in the day by just asking for them.

[Dex]

LOL IMHO, that is not the doll she is referring to in the song when she sings, "don't buy that doll." There was a space in time when Stevie would carry with her one of those life like baby dolls. She said in an interview she wanted to have a baby around 1991. I read many Ledgie's remarks about being creeped out by those dolls. I believe it was Tom telling her not to buy those dolls anymore. They were probably very expensive also.


Thanks for clearing that up. I will continue to be horrified by this information all day long. :laugh:

[SorcererJP]

But where does the song 'Paper Doll' then fit in the picture ;)

[michelej1]

Thanks for clearing that up. I will continue to be horrified by this information all day long. :laugh:

In the song, I think she is actually referring to a life-size poster, not a baby doll.

But on ebay you can see the type of dolls that Viv is talking about, if you do a search for "reborn doll". They are amazing and can cost thousands of dollars. I used to have a few myself and I would keep them in a white wicker tea caddy. I took the wheels off of it and set it up with blankets and ruffles to look like a double decker crib. It could be kind of freaky for anyone who came to my house for the first time.

Michele

[michelej1]

this is gross. but that's what i thought initially too.
except why would she go TO him ... :lol:

he's the only one i could think of who would legit be worthy of a "doll" lol

Yes, I could buy into the argument that she went to Tom to tell him that she couldn't get over him and he told her to move on with her life, although the lyrics of the song were carefully crafted to conceal the fact that it was Tom she was talking to about Tom. And my reasoning was that Tom was the only one famous enough to have a poster of himself in music stores. Of course, not unless Stevie was secretly in love with another famous person like Elvis or Michael Jackson!

So, this Tom argument seemed plausible, but I have to say once someone posted that picture of the Joe Walsh life-size poster that really changed my mind and I had to conclude that maybe Stevie had been talking about Joe all along. I hadn't known there were life-sized posters of Walsh before I saw the photo.

Michele

[nicole21290]

But on ebay you can see the type of dolls that Viv is talking about, if you do a search for "reborn doll". They are amazing and can cost thousands of dollars. I used to have a few myself and I would keep them in a white wicker tea caddy. I took the wheels off of it and set it up with blankets and ruffles to look like a double decker crib. It could be kind of freaky for anyone who came to my house for the first time.

Michele

Yeah, the picture/s of her in the aiport with a doll are bad enough but for me, eek...

http://media.tumblr.com/a5423f78f44c0c27969c7cbf016e442c/tumblr_inline_n9oikqQxhX1rjpgwn.jpg

[UndoingTheLaces]

LOL IMHO, that is not the doll she is referring to in the song when she sings, "don't buy that doll."

Actually, in the early part of the song she sings "Saw a life-size paper doll of you
In a record store" so when he later says "don't buy that doll" you can assume he's talking about that doll.


Frankly the entire concept of large paper cutouts of people is one I find a little creepy, which is why its a lyric I really wish she'd changed. Who buys that crap? Who thinks it's a good idea to manufacture it? Well, apparently Stevie does, because she had to be told explicitly not to buy it at the end of the song. Something I rather wish I didn't know about her.

I live in Hollywood and some of the souvenir shops have them. One of them has a whole bunch and their display shelf always reminds me of The Beatles Sgt. Peppers album cover. I used to have an Elvira one when I was younger just because I thought she was cool and fun. And I thought it was funny to have Elvira standing in a corner in my living room. I've never heard them referred to as a "paper doll" but I think the reference comes from the fact that they resemble paper dolls little girls used to play with. Like this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_doll

I think the song Paper Doll isn't about this particular paper doll but rather it's a metaphor for being objectified and treated like an object of beauty, to be dressed up, played with and shown off rather than being treated like a person. "I was your paper doll".

[vivfox]

In the song, I think she is actually referring to a life-size poster, not a baby doll.


Actually, in the early part of the song she sings "Saw a life-size paper doll of you
In a record store" so when he later says "don't buy that doll" you can assume he's talking about that doll.

I can't say it is a fact that both of you are wrong because all her songs are meant to be interpreted in our own way. I believe she sings about many different subjects within the context of the song, and may be full of it for all I know. I think Tom is telling her to stay out of music stores because he knows other people's music can interfere with a writer's thought process in crafting a song. That's why he advises her to turn off the radio. But I firmly believe when he says not to buy that doll he is referring to the lifelike ones she was so fond of at the time and not the lifelike paper doll in the record store. BTW, I can't even bring myself to sing the word DOLL when I'm singing that song. I find it so silly. So I always sing, "don't buy that car."

[StreetAngel86]

Yes, I could buy into the argument that she went to Tom to tell him that she couldn't get over him and he told her to move on with her life, although the lyrics of the song were carefully crafted to conceal the fact that it was Tom she was talking to about Tom. And my reasoning was that Tom was the only one famous enough to have a poster of himself in music stores. Of course, not unless Stevie was secretly in love with another famous person like Elvis or Michael Jackson!


nah i meant more like she concealed the fact TO Tom that it was ABOUT Tom :lol:
firstly, she's a pretty bad liar
secondly, i think he'd know/knew if she was in love with him
so her going TO him about this "guy" she's supposedly in love with but can't have ... might send of some serious alarm bells to him.

did not know about the life sized JW posters ... i think that is more disturbing than Stevie's life like dolls. uuuuugh i just don't know with these rocks stars

he treats her like $ hit and she still wants him? ugh
Tom needs a gold star

[michelej1]

Yeah, the picture/s of her in the aiport with a doll are bad enough but for me, eek...



See, I don't like it when they have their eyes closed. Instead of looking like they're asleep, they look rather corpselike.

Michele

[michelej1]

nah i meant more like she concealed the fact TO Tom that it was ABOUT Tom :lol:


I think he probably does believe she had (maybe still has) a thing for him. Michele

[michelej1]

Actually, in the early part of the song she sings "Saw a life-size paper doll of you
In a record store" so when he later says "don't buy that doll" you can assume he's talking about that doll.



Yeah, I agree. I don't think she'd be referencing two different types of dolls in the same song.

Michele

[PenguinHead]

are these songs about Lindsey?
I mean they were written circa Twisted ...

I would have said the rehab dude ala For What It's Worth... but he's not a singer is he?

and every song that's not about Lindsey is about Joe W right? :lol: <puke>
when was the last time Stevie had anything proper to do with him?

seriously, who are these songs about?

Who is Joe Wright?

[PenguinHead]

I can't say it is a fact that both of you are wrong because all her songs are meant to be interpreted in our own way. I believe she sings about many different subjects within the context of the song, and may be full of it for all I know. I think Tom is telling her to stay out of music stores because he knows other people's music can interfere with a writer's thought process in crafting a song. That's why he advises her to turn off the radio. But I firmly believe when he says not to buy that doll he is referring to the lifelike ones she was so fond of at the time and not the lifelike paper doll in the record store. BTW, I can't even bring myself to sing the word DOLL when I'm singing that song. I find it so silly. So I always sing, "don't buy that car."

Your perceptions and insights are enlightening. Thanks Viv! It's kind of creepy that Stevie collects these dolls, and even more unsettling that she travels with them. Freud would have a field day studying her peculiar proclivities.

[StreetAngel86]

Who is Joe Wright?

that says Joe W (SPACE) right (asking a QUESTION)


Viv, love your interpretation!
i hate ALL the doll mentions in this song ugh

[PenguinHead]

that says Joe W (SPACE) right (asking a QUESTION)



:lol: Sorry you didn't get the joke!

I just find it curiously entertaining -- the yearning endeavor fans have the to crack the code of who or what her songs are about, as if there is very specific subject. As Viv duly noted, Stevie mostly writes in a diffused manner, with a montage of personal references. Through the years she has ascertained different meanings to certain songs. I think that's because she's addressing/focusing on just one facet of a song.

Her influences are more random and emotional than narrative. Her writing style is in a similar vein akin to Federico Fellini. He was an Italian film director and scriptwriter who was known for his distinct style that blends fantasy and dramatic images with earthiness. Some suppositions fans have about the subjects/meanings of her songs are likely spot on. But those are, for the most part, only pieces of the puzzle.

[welcomechris]

The music is amazing, but the lyrics stink

[michelej1]

And one thing about the song Paper Doll and the doll referenced in Hard Advice or about doll references in general are that they stand for childhood. Childish pretense. Fantasy. Make believe. Delusion. It's about letting go. It can be letting go of past that was never real anyway or just letting go of things that are gone and irretrievable.

Pursuant to Corinthians, when you become an adult you are supposed to put away childish things. And if you're still clinging to dolls or a desire for dolls, you're holding onto the past and onto beliefs in things that aren't real or realistic.

So, in that sense, I don't think the "don't buy that doll" line is an absurd one at all. I mean, for me, it doesn't even rank in the top 20 or 30 or 50 of silly Stevie lyrics. I think it's a rather clever way of saying, "let go of that fantasy. Stop playing make believe. Grow up. Let that dream die."

As for Paper Doll I think of the transient and it makes me sad. You can feel so passionate about something. It's wonderful, golden, all-consuming but then you just grow up. Your needs change. You become fascinated by something else. And in a sense leaving something behind by your own choice hurts as much as losing it involuntarily, because you wish you could be that person who was delighted but you aren't anymore.

Michele

[Fannymac]

this is gross. but that's what i thought initially too.
except why would she go TO him ... :lol:

he's the only one i could think of who would legit be worthy of a "doll" lol

She asked him to write songs for her.....he basically said "You're a song writer...write your own songs!" Hard Advice......and Strong Medicine!

[StreetAngel86]

She asked him to write songs for her.....he basically said "You're a song writer...write your own songs!" Hard Advice......and Strong Medicine!

yes i know that.
but we're not talking about asking him to write her songs
we're talking about the guy she's in love with that she can't have :lol:

[dontlookdown]

But musically how do we feel about them?

I like the production/sound of Hard Advice better.
But That Made Me Stronger has a better groove.
Lyrically, they're both dogs. Sloppy and in need of a little more craft.

Stay out of record stores. Don't buy that dog.