Strange Things to Follow When You Love Someone/ the significance of Mabel Normand

[PenguinHead]

I have no agenda to change anyone's mind about the song; you either love it or hate it - fair enough. But the more I listen, the more intrigued and informed I am about the significance of it, in terms of Stevie's artistry.

The decision to add the middle "change sides" section was a smart decision because serves as a landing pad and gives the song some tangible structure. The second part of the song is essentially a recapitulation of the first part, but with some alternate phrases, and a few new lines/verses.

The lyrics have all the typical characteristics of Stevie's writing style. There is a story line, but the connections are somewhat loose and the references obscure. It's atypical because there is no traditional verse and chorus, just a barreling forward narrative. I think that is why some listeners are thrown off about it.

That approach reminded me of the bands like The Velvet Underground. They have a long winded spoken song , sans chorus, and verses called The Gift. (It's about a guy, geographically separated from by his girlfriend, who decides to mail himself in a box to surprise her. It ends tragically when she attempts to open the box with a knife).

My point is that the validity of a song is not bound to a set structure. It's a more challenging listen than a traditional form, and that's why it has a special distinction. Stevie rarely ventures into territory that more progressive, left of center artists pursue. That's why I'm so appreciative that she chose to take a less beaten path. It's a fresh, artistic change of pace; one that evokes very different reactions. She's making no apologies, challenging the listener. I love that!

[DauphineMarie]

I have no agenda to change anyone's mind about the song; you either love it or hate it - fair enough. But the more I listen, the more intrigued and informed I am about the significance of it, in terms of Stevie's artistry.

The decision to add the middle "change sides" section was a smart decision because serves as a landing pad and gives the song some tangible structure. The second part of the song is essentially a recapitulation of the first part, but with some alternate phrases, and a few new lines/verses.

The lyrics have all the typical characteristics of Stevie's writing style. There is a story line, but the connections are somewhat loose and the references obscure. It's atypical because there is no traditional verse and chorus, just a barreling forward narrative. I think that is why some listeners are thrown off about it.

That approach reminded me of the bands like The Velvet Underground. They have a long winded spoken song , sans chorus, and verses called The Gift. (It's about a guy, geographically separated from by his girlfriend, who decides to mail himself in a box to surprise her. It ends tragically when she attempts to open the box with a knife).

My point is that the validity of a song is not bound to a set structure. It's a more challenging listen than a traditional form, and that's why it has a special distinction. Stevie rarely ventures into territory that more progressive, left of center artists pursue. That's why I'm so appreciative that she chose to take a less beaten path. It's a fresh, artistic change of pace; one that evokes very different reactions. She's making no apologies, challenging the listener. I love that!

Thank you SO much for this post. I have always loved Mabel Normand because of this structure. It never resolves to anything, but to me makes perfect sense as an incoherent thought. That way, anyone can make of it what they will. And also, the Velvet Underground comparison is spot on. There is a song called "Heroin" that is truly spectacular, has no chorus, no bridge, and no structure, and is simply incredible.

[mitzo]

One remarkable aspect of the song is that Stevie delivers it with such intensity. What she is singing obviously means a lot to her. You can almost get but not really. Her best stuff is like this. It makes little immediate sense, but draws you into her world where things make their OWN sense.

[KarmaContestant]

I can't express how much I love this song - her vocals, the intensity, the realism - it's all there. Stevie really channeled her 1985 self when she laid this track out.

My favorite verse has got to be the one about her 'friend". You know how poeple will ask for advice about a problem, and pretend it's for "a friend"? Well, that's how I interpret this verse:

So my friend is continuing on a destructive road
His life passes before him like an unfortunate circumstance
He and his 'friend' are at odds - and he is not winning

Which I interpret as:

So I am continuing down a destructive road
My life passes before me like an unfortunate circumstance
Me and my addiction are at odds, and I am not winning.

Why does someone always have to win?

[michelej1]

I have no agenda to change anyone's mind about the song; you either love it or hate it - fair enough. But the more I listen, the more intrigued and informed I am about the significance of it, in terms of Stevie's artistry.



I don't think Mabel Normand is black or white. There's plenty of room for gray. I don't hate it at all. I just don't find it a song, but a spoken word piece with unrelated music attached to it. I see it as performance based prose -- and a legitimate piece of storytelling. It reminds me of a Spalding Gray monologue. That's why I put it in the category of Mrs. Scarrott's piece.

Michele

[louielouie2000]

My favorite verse has got to be the one about her 'friend". You know how poeple will ask for advice about a problem, and pretend it's for "a friend"? Well, that's how I interpret this verse:

So my friend is continuing on a destructive road
His life passes before him like an unfortunate circumstance
He and his 'friend' are at odds - and he is not winning

Which I interpret as:

So I am continuing down a destructive road
My life passes before me like an unfortunate circumstance
Me and my addiction are at odds, and I am not winning.

Why does someone always have to win?

Interesting take on that verse. I've assumed the song was at least partially about her relationship with Joe Walsh. Stevie has never had any qualms with referring to herself in her songs as "her" and "she," so I have to assume Mabel Normand isn't an exception.

The song being partially about her relationship with Joe makes a lot of sense to me, at least. After all, they were dating and parting ways at that time because their addictions were killing them both. Stevie has mentioned how their relationship ended cold turkey- something that is repeatedly hinted at in Mabel Normand.

"So I moved away from the house that held nothing but waiting for messages"

and

"strange things to follow when you love someone, so you put that someone in exile"

and

"he called today he said don't give up. I ask him what are you talking about? I said things are not the same. Since you've been gone Rome burned down. And still it's all the same."

To me, all of this is pointing to Stevie's relationship with Joe, their drug addictions spiraling out of control, and having to abandon their relationship so they could survive. But that's just my take. :)

I don't think Mabel Normand is black or white. There's plenty of room for gray. I don't hate it at all. I just don't find it a song, but a spoken word piece with unrelated music attached to it. I see it as performance based prose -- and a legitimate piece of storytelling. It reminds me of a Spalding Gray monologue. That's why I put it in the category of Mrs. Scarrott's piece.

I absolutely agree Mabel Normand is more like a spoken word piece- one where a poet stands up and starts reciting their words to accompanying music they do not know beforehand. This is also why I think it's brilliant- the song is about a loss of control, about forging into the darkness. Artistically, I think it's one of the coolest things Stevie's ever done.

[michelej1]

I absolutely agree Mabel Normand is more like a spoken word piece- one where a poet stands up and starts reciting their words to accompanying music they do not know beforehand.

I would agree with this description and, in that manner, I would contrast it with These Strange Times where I think the rhythm is not only matched to Mick's words, but that Mick's words also have a beat and syncopation all their own.

Michele

[SisterNightroad]

I also absolutely think that Mabel Normand is mainly about both cocaine and Joe Walsh. Am I the only one that sees some kind of similarity with "Races are run"?

"(And) you are not winning
Why does someone always have to win?
And all those races that are run"

"Races are run
Some people win
Some people always have to lose"

[KarmaContestant]

To me, all of this is pointing to Stevie's relationship with Joe, their drug addictions spiraling out of control, and having to abandon their relationship so they could survive. But that's just my take. :)


Of course- it's probably about Joe. But this is a song about Mabel and how Stevie related to her, so I'd rather the lyrics be about one of them. :laugh: Because Joe Walsh isn't exactly an inspirational persona to me.

[pryderi]

As others have said before, I wasn't a fan of the demo. I never got through the entire song. But, upon hearing the first few seconds of the new version I instantly fell in love with it. It's crazy!

[michelej1]

Oh, I think it's about Stevie and Joe in the same sense that Leather and Lace may have been about Stevie and not just Waylon Jennings and Jessi Colter, but I definitely see those lyrics as having to do with Mabel Normand too. I mean, I may have watched too much of A. J. Benza's Mysteries and Scandals when it was on the air, but Mabel Normand ran with a Hollywood crowd that rose to the heights of fames only to be slammed down by scandal, not only drugs and sex, but even murder.

So, when he and his friends are at odds and he is not winning, I think of William Desmond Taylor who was murdered by unknown persons -- but the rumor is that the culprits were Normand's own drug pals.

And a line like, "he began to hide his beauty" makes me think of someone other than Joe Walsh. It makes me think of people like Charlie Chaplin (who left America) or Fatty Arbuckle who were basically blacklisted and had their careers wither on the vine because the media and public turned against them. They suddenly had to live in shadow.

When Stevie says she feels guilty for even dying, I totally think of Mabel Normand and her tuberculosis.

[StreetAngel86]

My favorite verse has got to be the one about her 'friend". You know how poeple will ask for advice about a problem, and pretend it's for "a friend"? Well, that's how I interpret this verse:

Which I interpret as:

So I am continuing down a destructive road
My life passes before me like an unfortunate circumstance
Me and my addiction are at odds, and I am not winning.

Why does someone always have to win?


why is she referring to herself as a man then?
why isn't this "friend" a woman?
i like the winning theme ... Races are Run ... some people win. some people always have to lose :D:D:D:D

ETA: totally did NOT see the previously commented on Races are Run post. GREAT MINDS :)

[jwd]

I have no agenda to change anyone's mind about the song; you either love it or hate it - fair enough. But the more I listen, the more intrigued and informed I am about the significance of it, in terms of Stevie's artistry.

The decision to add the middle "change sides" section was a smart decision because serves as a landing pad and gives the song some tangible structure. The second part of the song is essentially a recapitulation of the first part, but with some alternate phrases, and a few new lines/verses.

The lyrics have all the typical characteristics of Stevie's writing style. There is a story line, but the connections are somewhat loose and the references obscure. It's atypical because there is no traditional verse and chorus, just a barreling forward narrative. I think that is why some listeners are thrown off about it.

That approach reminded me of the bands like The Velvet Underground. They have a long winded spoken song , sans chorus, and verses called The Gift. (It's about a guy, geographically separated from by his girlfriend, who decides to mail himself in a box to surprise her. It ends tragically when she attempts to open the box with a knife).

My point is that the validity of a song is not bound to a set structure. It's a more challenging listen than a traditional form, and that's why it has a special distinction. Stevie rarely ventures into territory that more progressive, left of center artists pursue. That's why I'm so appreciative that she chose to take a less beaten path. It's a fresh, artistic change of pace; one that evokes very different reactions. She's making no apologies, challenging the listener. I love that!

Excellent post. I very much enjoyed reading your take on Mabel. And I couldn't agree more.

[bombaysaffires]

I think I like the album version of Mabel because the demo was such a hot mess. The lyrics are still an indecipherable mess but somehow what Dave has done with the musical arrangement has made it compelling in a way that I for one totally did not anticipate. So turning it on and expecting it to be just a more elaborately produced pile, I was taken aback that it was somehow listenable…and then I had to play it again just to be sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing…the repeated pattern of the chords, but then the more and more guitar layers added on as the song goes on. It just captivated me because it wasn't what I expected. Who knows what the hell she's talking about, but it has a really catchy groove.:shrug:

[On Ice]

I agree with what the posts have touched on with Mabel. That Stevie chose her as a metaphoric backdrop for this song I think was brilliant. At the time of the Wild Heart and Rock a Little, I can't believe I was so oblivious to her relationship with Joe Walsh. The way that she tells this story with Mabel as the back drop challenges me and holds my interest through the song. "Change sides" gives the listener the heads up that we're going in a different direction now so get ready. Ending with the wonderfully sung "so beautiful" caps off one of Stevie's best moments in her solo career.

[gldstwmn]

I can't express how much I love this song - her vocals, the intensity, the realism - it's all there. Stevie really channeled her 1985 self when she laid this track out.

My favorite verse has got to be the one about her 'friend". You know how poeple will ask for advice about a problem, and pretend it's for "a friend"? Well, that's how I interpret this verse:

So my friend is continuing on a destructive road
His life passes before him like an unfortunate circumstance
He and his 'friend' are at odds - and he is not winning

Which I interpret as:

So I am continuing down a destructive road
My life passes before me like an unfortunate circumstance
Me and my addiction are at odds, and I am not winning.

Why does someone always have to win?

I love the why does someone always have to win line. In fact I'm so in love with this song. It quickly became my favorite.

[Christopher]

I'm addicted to this song!
Between Stevies fiery rhythmic and razor sharp cadence unfurling her allegorical prose, building to a cacophony of guitars buzzing. This song is a winner. A BIG winner!
I find it interesting how certain lines speak to you, depending on your mood, or what's going on in your day, or life at the moment. "Mabel" just may be my favorite song, along with the deadly sensual thriller that is All The Beautiful Worlds. :thumbsup:

Glory is 24K Gold. This record sits among Stevies' best records ever overall, I think.

[HoursAndHours]

I love the why does someone always have to win line. In fact I'm so in love with this song. It quickly became my favorite.

I love that line too, but I will confess that I think she delivers it with far more emotion (frustration) in the demo.

[MariaA37]

I love that line too, but I will confess that I think she delivers it with far more emotion (frustration) in the demo.

I agree. I've always loved the demo, but I LOVE the music on the 24K version. Wish I could get her demo vocal with the 24K music.

~Maria

[pryderi]

Stephen Normand, great nephew of Mabel, posted a long comment 4 days ago about the song on youtube wanting her to contribute some of the proceeds to a tuberculosis charity.

http://youtu.be/it4WhQTojIk

[MarkMc1990]

Stephen Normand, great nephew of Mabel, posted a long comment 4 days ago about the song on youtube wanting her to contribute some of the proceeds to a tuberculosis charity.

http://youtu.be/it4WhQTojIk

What's that guy who replied to him talking about with the Frank Sinatra Jr. version? Surely he's mistaken?

[BlueDenimLamp]

Stephen Normand, great nephew of Mabel, posted a long comment 4 days ago about the song on youtube wanting her to contribute some of the proceeds to a tuberculosis charity.

http://youtu.be/it4WhQTojIk

Don't remember anyone from the Poe estate complaining about "Annabel Lee" or suggesting Stevie donate money. The Normand people need to find something better to do with their time.

[michelej1]

Don't remember anyone from the Poe estate complaining about "Annabel Lee" or suggesting Stevie donate money. The Normand people need to find something better to do with their time.

Well Poe died 165 years ago so his estate might have run out of defense energy. Plus, Stevie hasn't written about Poe's opium addiction yet.

Michele

[PenguinHead]

Don't remember anyone from the Poe estate complaining about "Annabel Lee" or suggesting Stevie donate money. The Normand people need to find something better to do with their time.

It appears that the reemergence of Mabel Normand, due to Stevie's song, has opened up some old wounds for the family maintaining Mabel's legacy.

The underlying reason has less to do with Stevie's song, but more with a longstanding and inaccurate characterization of Mabel's life. She was apparently unfairly associated with the rampant use of cocaine in her era. By all personal accounts, she was not caught up in that scene. She was incredibly successful and wealthy, but she wasn't a drug addict. She died of tuberculous. Unfortunately tabloid journalism had cast a different, more salacious story that became self perpetuating.

Stevie shouldn't be faulted by feeling that Mabel's predicament was similar to hers. When she talked about the song, she castes Mabel as a coke addict who's life spiraled out of control and led to her destruction. She related to Mabel based on established misinformation. The song itself has no blatant reference to cocaine. In typical Stevie-style, the subject matter is addressed in a scatter shot and opaque manner. Mabel Normand is her metaphor for aspects of her own life.

Family descendants should appreciate the positive aspects resulting from Stevie's song. It's provided them with a platform to set the record straight about Mabel's life and death, and it has likely stimulated interest and informed her legacy, reminding us that she was a pioneering participant in the birth of the movie industry.

[DauphineMarie]

It appears that the reemergence of Mabel Normand, due to Stevie's song, has opened up some old wounds for the family maintaining Mabel's legacy.

The underlying reason has less to do with Stevie's song, but more with a longstanding and inaccurate characterization of Mabel's life. She was apparently unfairly associated with the rampant use of cocaine in her era. By all personal accounts, she was not caught up in that scene. She was incredibly successful and wealthy, but she wasn't a drug addict. She died of tuberculous. Unfortunately tabloid journalism had cast a different, more salacious story that became self perpetuating.

Stevie shouldn't be faulted by feeling that Mabel's predicament was similar to hers. When she talked about the song, she castes Mabel as a coke addict who's life spiraled out of control and led to her destruction. She related to Mabel based on established misinformation. The song itself has no blatant reference to cocaine. In typical Stevie-style, the subject matter is addressed in a scatter shot and opaque manner. Mabel Normand is her metaphor for aspects of her own life.

Family descendants should appreciate the positive aspects resulting from Stevie's song. It's provided them with a platform to set the record straight about Mabel's life and death, and it has likely stimulated interest and informed her legacy, reminding us that she was a pioneering participant in the birth of the movie industry.

THANK YOU. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[welcomechris]

Stephen Normand, great nephew of Mabel, posted a long comment 4 days ago about the song on youtube wanting her to contribute some of the proceeds to a tuberculosis charity.

http://youtu.be/it4WhQTojIk

Heyyyy thats my page :cool:

Here's what he said

This recording by Stevie Nicks using and referring to my great-aunt Mabel Normand by name and without fact,labels my aunt as a cocaine user/addict, attributing it to her cause of decline professionally and in her health is not to be taken seriously. Mabel Normand suffered with tuberculosis as a child (a brother,Ralph died of it as a teenager) and it recurred during her working career in the early 20's, overwhelming her finally in February 23,1930 where she lay suffering for 18 months at Pottenger Sanitarium Monrovia California for Tuberculosis. The accusation of drug addiction is unsubstainuated and there is no evidence medically to uphold the accusation of addiction. Further there was no proof nor was it ever claimed during Mabel's lifetime that she was addicted.Though Ms Nicks speaks positively of my aunt's work in her career during her interview she does not in her lyrics. Her effort to bring the attention to the harm of drug addiction is admirable but the song is really about Ms. Nicks experience not Mabel Normand. As I am openly available on the internet it continues to baffle me why researchers continue to ignore Mabel Normand's family as a source to be consulted. It is true that the dead cannot be slandered but it is also shameful to continue on with hearsay that can not be proven and used to mar the reputation of one of cinema's early women comediennes with such an albatros of untruth. Mabel's death certificate clearly states cause of death was Tuberculosis complicated in the end with pneumonia. Mabel Normand did not suffer with a hole in her septum/nose or head/brain as the unfortunate Ms Nicks has evidentally in her admission in her interview. It is my hope that Ms Nicks will make a substantial contribution of her royalties to a tuberculosis charity of her choice in my great aunt Mabel's name as she has used Mabel Normand's name and my family surname in a song to make a profit to her own name. With all best wishes for good health and happiness to continue to bless Ms Nick's reputation and her health in the future.

Respectfully,
Stephen Normand
Great Nephew of Mabel Normand
Archivist of the Mabel Normand Family Estate

[pryderi]

What's that guy who replied to him talking about with the Frank Sinatra Jr. version? Surely he's mistaken?

Apparently he covered Twisted as well. lol He posted the following on the twisted youtube song:

God job by Stevie but has anybody heard the Frank Sinatra Jr. version of this song ? It's lights out and the definitive version for sure. Thanks for posting. 

[welcomechris]

Apparently he covered Twisted as well. lol He posted the following on the twisted youtube song:

God job by Stevie but has anybody heard the Frank Sinatra Jr. version of this song ? It's lights out and the definitive version for sure. Thanks for posting. 

You've heard it? If so, please share

[pryderi]

No Ive never heard it. I just posted someone's comment on youtube. http://youtu.be/xVhGtSNOM7s

[PenguinHead]

The lyrics are still an indecipherable mess

I used to think that too, until I became more familiar with the words. and it started to make more sense. It's one of Stevie's most challenging, lyrically packed songs. Because it doesn't follow a traditional arrangement, it's easy to conclude it as a mess. Some of her lines are so memorable that they often pop up in my convoluted mind. It's a catchy song in the most twisted way.

[michelej1]

The words are actually the best part of the recording.

Michele

[DauphineMarie]

Back before the tracklisting was revealed and everyone was hating on Poor Mabel, I wrote what I thought about this song - turns out I wasn't wrong ;) but anyway this was my take on it.

Stevie had to have written this in 1984-1985, while she was dating Joe Walsh. Mabel Normand was a silent film star, the first comedienne, woman director, and launched Charlie Chaplin's film career. In the early 1920's, she was possibly heavily addicted to cocaine (Hmm) and found much unhappiness in her life. Her story really is very sad, ending with her untimely death from tuberculosis in 1930, mostly brought on from weakness she sustained from her fast-living lifestyle. I think Stevie saw this, and recognized it was a reflection of her own life.

The actual verses talk about losing her love. She says, "and I call you Beloved Exile." Beloved Exile is a book about King Arthur, or more specifically, the death of King Arthur, leaving behind Queen Guinevere to live alone, in her misery. I remember in an interview she gave in the 90's I believe, saying that both her and Joe would have died if they had not broken up, because of their ridiculous lifestyles. "So continue on your destructive road."

I think she compares herself to "Poor Mabel Normand" and Guinevere, and Joe to King Arthur; two completely unrelated people, but whose lives are parallel. As strange as it is, I completely understand every single word in this song, and I have since the first time I listened to it. It is one of the most important songs to me, and it always will be.

[bombaysaffires]

You've heard it? If so, please share

it's a total joke. :thumbsup:

[pryderi]

I am totally obsessed with this song.e I vaguely remember reading or hearing an interview where Stevie said she could never write like Joni Mitchell how she can fit so many words into a song. I believe she may have accomplished this with Mabel Normand.