If Stevie has a cache of songs in her vault...

[PenguinHead]

...then why does she have to resort to the internet/youtube to find her songs?
Shouldn't all that unreleased material be amassed in her much lauded vault?

If she is rediscovering and retrieving long lost songs from the web, then what the hell is in her vault?:shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

I figured they were mainly looking to see which songs the fans have in their hands (they'd probably be shocked to learn the sheer number!) and to also see which are the most popular on YouTube.

[sorcerer999]

I personally think that Stevie (or someone in her "camp") has lost most of her reel-to-reel demos and "vault" songs.

When the Modern Records storage unit was put up for auction many many years ago (which I'm sure Stevie and Company had no clue about), the dude who bought it basically took all the master reels inside and he either sold them to someone or took it upon himself to take these reels to a studio and copy them to SELL to all of us ravenous Stevie fans who couldn't get enough. Remember that? Can't remember what the dude's name was who was selling them. But he would make copies and sell them on ebay for ridiculous amounts of money...and we all fell for it. Then several nice people (some of them here in this forum, in fact) uploaded them to the internet to share for free. And a big THANK YOU for that, by the way.

I think Stevie might have SOME old demos on cassette and CD lying around her house or a storage unit...but I don't think she has nearly as much as us fans do. Remember she said she sent Lori to Arizona to try and find the "Secret Love" demo in their storage unit, but Lori came up short so they used the YouTube video as a template instead?

It's ironic that Stevie has complained SO MUCH about the "evils" of the internet, yet basically NEEDED the internet (specifically YouTube) to rediscover most of her old demos and used it as such as a jumping off point for this new album. Too funny! :laugh:

[Macfanforever]

Its sad to see and hear about these storage bin auctions .People personal belongings like family photos/audio/videos end up in somebody elses hands and end up in the rubbish.
I had two 10x20's to store my electronics equipment,electronic test equipment ,tools,furniture and other stuff that I could not store in my small apartment.
Now its a all here in my basement and garage in my house .

I see these storage auction notices in the local paper all the time.

[KarmaContestant]

I actually think Stevie has a good hold on her vault collection; but moreso, I think her label has a good idea of exactly what is there. When Stevie talked about selecting Reconsider Me for Enchanted, she mentioned going through the label vaults, and finding all kinds of 'crazy crazy things' on the masters.

Masters are almost always owned by the label, carefully stored, and I really doubt that all of those reel-to-reels circulating the past decade were the only copies. I recall hearing at the time that the master reels first started circulating that they were offered up to Stevie's camp, who weren't interested in having them back, and so they went on eBay.

While a few were auctioned individually, nearly all of them went to a single owner who has spent his own time and money renting a studio and paying a sound engineer to have them all transferred to CD. It is because of his generosity that any of that batch of masters - over 200 reels - is circulating at all. Yes, they were sold to fans (I personally bought probably two-thirds pitching in cash with other fans, and traded to get the rest), but he could have kept them all to himself. It was a very exciting time to be a fan!

I figured they were mainly looking to see which songs the fans have in their hands (they'd probably be shocked to learn the sheer number!) and to also see which are the most popular on YouTube.

^^Exactly.

[Richard B]

I think YouTube simply makes it very easy to pull up all their songs easily without digging for Masters that are...well...who knows where. At least, once they compile their list, they can go to the studio or whomever or wherever those masters are located. They're sure not at Stevie's house. The bulk of Stevie's material is analog and storing those things is an epic undertaking.

As for the Studios. I wouldn't trust them at all. They don't care, never have. Billboard Magazine put out a controversial article (trying to find it) about how master tape got lost or destroyed back in the late 90's. There is one bizzarre account of how RCA suppossedly hired a demolition company to blow up a bunch of tapes. CBS in the late 80s literally took tapes to a radial-arm saw, or something to that effect. The Simon and Garfunkel masters found for the Old Friends box set that Columbia claimed had been "lost" when compiling the earlier Complete Works of S&G. It goes on and on.

Good read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/lost-tapes-the-music-that-fans-may-never-get-to-hear-8812774.html

[sorcerer999]

When Stevie talked about selecting Reconsider Me for Enchanted, she mentioned going through the label vaults, and finding all kinds of 'crazy crazy things' on the masters.

Yes, but this happened about 2 or 3 years BEFORE her label auctioned off her storage vault.


While a few were auctioned individually, nearly all of them went to a single owner who has spent his own time and money renting a studio and paying a sound engineer to have them all transferred to CD. It is because of his generosity that any of that batch of masters - over 200 reels - is circulating at all. Yes, they were sold to fans (I personally bought probably two-thirds pitching in cash with other fans, and traded to get the rest), but he could have kept them all to himself.


I think it's due to this man's GREED that got us all these Master Reels. (And THANK GOD for his greed, right? Otherwise we wouldn't have these at all -Hahaha) It doesn't take much money to rent time in a simple studio (you can rent studio time for $20 an hour) and most Engineer's fees are about $35 an hour. It also doesn't take much time to have one reel transferred to a CD (one could transfer one complete reel in an hour's time). He was selling individual reels (example "Julia" Master Reel with only Take 8 and 9 on the disc) for nearly $200.00 (compared to maybe $60 it took to have a reel transferred) ~ he knew that the hardcore Stevie fan would pay for it. Some of us never had a chance in owning any of these for several years after until the GENEROSITY of several folks who spent all that money for those reels, yet let us trade and download for FREE.

Simply my opinion, though. :)

[KarmaContestant]

Yes, but this happened about 2 or 3 years BEFORE her label auctioned off her storage vault.



I think it's due to this man's GREED that got us all these Master Reels. (And THANK GOD for his greed, right? Otherwise we wouldn't have these at all -Hahaha) It doesn't take much money to rent time in a simple studio (you can rent studio time for $20 an hour) and most Engineer's fees are about $35 an hour. It also doesn't take much time to have one reel transferred to a CD (one could transfer one complete reel in an hour's time). He was selling individual reels (example "Julia" Master Reel with only Take 8 and 9 on the disc) for nearly $200.00 (compared to maybe $60 it took to have a reel transferred) ~ he knew that the hardcore Stevie fan would pay for it. Some of us never had a chance in owning any of these for several years after until the GENEROSITY of several folks who spent all that money for those reels, yet let us trade and download for FREE.

Simply my opinion, though. :)

Well, in all honestly - we don't know the whole story, but I'll share with you what I was told by the person who sold me the reels on CD. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here.

First, the storage vault was not auctioned by Modern or any other label Stevie was on. It was in a building formerly owned or leased by Modern that they moved out of. The reels were in a closet, and were located by the new building tenants. Stevie's camp was contacted, and they weren't interested. The reels started appearing on eBay, being sold by someone named Chris. A few were sold individually, before Gary bought the rest of them.

Gary contacted the seller, and made arrangements to purchase the entire remaining cache of reels. A deal was made for $30K. Gary borrowed the money from a family member, and made the purchase. Gary was a huge fan of Stevie, and wanted these to be shared with everyone - he knew from prior experience that if they all went individually to differnet buyers, it was possible than many would never be heard - just like the RAL work tapes that surfaced in 2011. He started making the arrangements to rent studio time, and to hire a sound engineer to begin the transfer of each reel to CD. Each reel was to be copied individually to a CD, as-is, with the most sound quality improvements possible. A straight transfer of reel to CD doesn't actually sound that great, which is why many were re-copied.

Anyway, I don't know the circumstances, but Gary died. He died before his reel-to-reel project could be completed. His best friend, who I shall refer to as BT, took over the project. BT completed the transfer of reels to CD, which actually took a couple of years - I was buying them as he was transferring them - and every few months there would be a couple dozen more available. BT was selling them, and I don't know what other folks paid but I got them for $10-$15 per title. I often pitched in with other fans, some are still members of this board, and we would share all of the reels amongst each other. BT was ok with this - but he wasn't ok with the reels just being feeely provided all over the internet. This is because in addition to receiving the reels when Gary died, BT also received the burden of paying back the uncle that Gary had borrowed money from. Not to mention the studio time. And proper storage for the reels - magnetic tape doesn't just last forver. It has to be stored in a climate controlled facility, and that's not free. BT has never listed reels on eBay.

BT was only trying to fulfill Gary's wishes that these reels be shared, and he did it the way he thought best. This is what BT told me, via e-mail, when I was buying reels from him. He was generous and open about it, and I hope I have not offended him by sharing it here, should he come across this thread. I have no idea if BT is a Ledgie. :shrug:

The last time I had any contact with BT was April 2010. I still have the list of reels he sent me at that time, numbering 213. I don't know if there are more. Pretty much all of them are Bella Donna era, with about a dozen exceptions that are OSOTM or Street Angel.

There are other reels, that are not from BT. They were among the first to circulate, and include the Julia title you mentioned. I don't know anything about these inital masters, or where they came from. They might have come from the eBay seller that Gary bought from - I don't know.

[sorcerer999]

Thanks for sharing with us the story that you were told by Gary. All I know is what I witnessed from eBay and other (now defunct) websites that were alleged run by the gentlemen who bought and sold the Master Reels.

In the very beginning (around late 2001/early 2002) it was just...

"Julia"
"The Dealer"
"Lady From The Mountain"
"Gold & Braid"
"Sanctuary"
"Blue Lamp"

...and I want to say two or three more that initially appeared on the web and sold for hundreds of dollars per CD from this guy who said he purchased the contents of the Modern Records storage unit that was auctioned off.

About a year later, all the other reels started appearing on this guys website for purchase, although at a considerably discounted rate ($50 per CD, which was still too high IMO). It wasn't until another year or so later that they started being traded and put up for free download for the rest of us "poor fans". :xoxo:

We probably will never know the "real" story as to how all this happened. At the time it all started, I was just aghast and amazed how much money this person wanted per Reel.

And going back to the original post, I find it incredibly interesting that Stevie and company went to YouTube to rediscover these demos (just like she did for "Secret Love") which would suggest she had somehow "misplaced" or downright LOST a lot of reels from her "vault".

Like the initial article stated...

Nicks says that she just recorded "18 tracks in three weeks" for the album -- saying that it's the "fastest I have ever recorded. We went onto YouTube and we found all the songs that, somehow, were taken from my house or picked up or loaned out or whatever ... and we went to Nashville (and recorded them)," Nicks told the Associated Press. "So they're like all starting from like 1969 maybe? I call them my 24 karat gold songs."

[KarmaContestant]

And going back to the original post, I find it incredibly interesting that Stevie and company went to YouTube to rediscover these demos (just like she did for "Secret Love") which would suggest she had somehow "misplaced" or downright LOST a lot of reels from her "vault".



Now what is really interesting about this is that Secret Love is one the songs from the BT reels. Is it possible that this is the only copy of the song that existed? Is it possible that Stevie couldn't locate it because she doesn't have it? I guess it's possible, but I really, really doubt it.

It's more likely that Stevie has recorded and stashed hundreds of demos at her house in her own vault - after all the label doesn't own them until you go into the studio and record them on the label's dime (or so I would imagine). This version of Secret Love is a near-complete song, so it's likely that numerous earlier iterations of the song existed before this one, and it's very likely that Stevie has those earlier versions.

53) Stevie Nicks (1/4 in. reel) Living Room Demos (no date)
1) Watch Chain
2) Storms (instrumental)
3) Storms (w/ Mick/ Stevie/ and Tom)
4) Love You Enough
5) Secret Loves
6) Storms (w/ Mick/ Stevie/ Tom and Welch)

Primarily, the reason I believe Stevie hasn't really had anything but copies of demos stolen from her, is because she's admitted to sharing the music amongst friends. Also, many of the demos that were reported as stolen way back in the early 80s when Almanac (which also includes Secret Love) and Uncirculated Rumours started circulating have since appeared on albums, which indicates to me they weren't lost to her forever.

I'd love to sit and interview Stevie about this stuff. :laugh:

[saintbernard]

To add a little bit more to this discussion, I had read on several occasions back in the day that the Modern Records storage reels weren't only offered to Stevie's camp and they declined them but the reason they declined was they said they had their own copies of the reels and they didn't need the ones being offered. To me, that could have been said for one of two reasons: they actually do have copies of every single thing we've heard on those 213 reels or they didn't want to pay for what they probably felt already was theirs. Decline to pay but in a way to make the seller think what they had there wasn't anything that special; nothing worth the price asked (which I have no clue what they were offered to her for). I don't believe it was the latter. I think Stevie's "vaults" contain far more than we as traders and fans could imagine. Her going to YouTube for songs doesn't tell me that she has nothing left in that vault she keeps talking about so much. I think that vault is far from being depleted.

Back when I was keeping my lists on my old web site, I had three categories that I put everything in.
Common Demos: these were the songs that circulated on the "old school" demo sets that are amazingly hard to find these days exactly as they circulated back when I was trading and making those lists.
Common Masters: these were master tracks that came into circulation before the Modern Records storage reels. These were semi-difficult to get at first but eventually came into wider circulation the longer they were out.
Numbered Masters: these were the 213 master reel discs that were brought into circulation from the storage reels. When these started circulating, there was a strict no trading policy on these so they were extremely hard for a lot of fans to get a hold of.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't recall any takes of Blue Lamp from the masters surfacing until the numbered reels started to get out there. Unless I am forgetting a lone track that was tacked onto a larger common master disc.

What I remember from the first set of what I called "common masters":

Rhiannon--reel from 1978 with three long takes of the song with just vocals and piano.
Julia--five different discs of takes of Julia, most of which sound virtually the same. One of the discs was "Julia, Day 2"
Kind of Woman--two takes from the 1980 sessions
Outside the Rain--a long 23 minute session of Stevie working with Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers. This has a lot of studio chatter on it. This was the reel where Stevie had a conversation about cough drops.
Sanctuary--two different discs of sessions from 1981. There was a lot of studio chatter and playing around during these sessions. It is from these where the "Put Your Sweet Lips a Little Closer to the Phone" and the talk about champagne originated.
Gold & Braid--1981 sessions with three takes.
The Dealer--Six takes from 1981. The was also a second disc of Dealer sessions that was called "The Dealer Extended" that had nine takes on it.
Lady from the Mountain--two full takes and two partial takes from the Bella Donna sessions.
Castaway--three takes from short to long from the Bella Donna sessions.
Cecelia--an 8 minute version of the song from the Bella Donna sessions. This also had a take of Baby Doll and a remix of Tusk on it. I traded for two different versions of this disc. One had the Tusk remix on it and another had a take of Bella Donna on it but the version of Cecelia was the same on both discs.
If You Were My Love--seven takes from the Bella Donna sessions.
Bella Donna--one 5 minute take of Bella Donna. This disc also contained tracks culled from other masters discs that were circulating at the time making it a sort of "best of" disc.
Gems--a collection of early demos including Sisters of the Moon, Planets of the Universe, After the Glitter Fades, Kind of Woman, Goodbye Baby, Think About it, Smile at You and If You Ever Did Believe.
Tusk Test Pressing--this was two or three test pressings from Tusk mixed with songs from Bella Donna and Rock a Little. There were also discs for Tusk Raw mixes and two "Tusk Reels" discs.

There were also later additions to the masters list that included Bella Donna-era sessions for Stop Draggin' My Heart Around, Leather & Lace, Mystical Love, Outside the Rain, Kind of Woman, If You Ever Did Believe, Sleeping Angel, Planets of the Universe, Think About It (some gorgeous piano demos), Goldfish & Ladybug, etc. The songs like Planets, Goldfish, etc. weren't worked on during Bella Donna just master copies of the older demos.

My current pet project is putting all these old sets back together, getting them uploaded to the internet and getting them posted in forums like this and to an online blog where these older sets will be available for a long time to come. I'm finding that so many tracks from the masters have been taken from this set or that set and them "repackaged" into "new" sets and the takes weren't properly labled as to what take they are, what the date is, if known, and what set they came from. So, you really don't what you're getting on some of the newer fan compilations. That's something that I, personally, am finding rather frustrating. For me, that's as bad as editing a track or a show down to remove talking or remove a certain part of a song then not labeling it as being edited. This new edit gets out there and it can very easily be mistaken for a new version. I guess maybe I'm just too "old school" in my thoughts when it comes to keeping everything intact and available.

I remember seeing a Stevie Nicks master reel on eBay from time to time. Owning a physical reel-t0-reel never really mattered to me, especially if the tracks on it were already circulating, as most of them were, but I did notice the auctions. To the best of my knowledge, none of these reels were BT's reels. He may have sold some of his reels, I don't know, but the way some of them were re-copied, I would think he had to hold onto them in the event a re-copy was necessary.


Primarily, the reason I believe Stevie hasn't really had anything but copies of demos stolen from her, is because she's admitted to sharing the music amongst friends. Also, many of the demos that were reported as stolen way back in the early 80s when Almanac (which also includes Secret Love) and Uncirculated Rumours started circulating have since appeared on albums, which indicates to me they weren't lost to her forever.

I'd love to sit and interview Stevie about this stuff. :laugh:

The stories about Stevie handing out cassettes of her old demos are legendary, aren't they? I swear, that woman handed out demos like candy back in the day. I can't imagine anyone who spent any length of time with her not having access to at least some of her old demos.

[sorcerer999]

I'd love to sit and interview Stevie about this stuff. :laugh:

RIGHT??? :nod:

Somehow I still don't think we'd get a straight answer. :laugh:

[BlueLight]

After a bit of searching, I finally found this 2011 interview where Stevie talks about her song vault.

http://www.more.com/stevie-nicks

MORE: In an interview I did with you previously, you said that you saved all your old tapes from when you were writing or working on songs.

Stevie Nicks: I do. Two songs for this record were pulled right off of old cassettes. "Annabelle Lee" was pulled off of a demo I did in about 1995, and "Secret Love"--the single--was pulled from a demo from a cassette that I wrote in 1976.

More: You must be really organized to be able to find that.

SN: I'm not, but the people who have worked for me have been very organized. I bought a house in Phoenix in 1978 and from 1978 on, we have what we call "The Song Vault.” It’s a storage unit that's temperature controlled, and it's several big armoires that are shelf after shelf after shelf of everything from collections of tapes that I used to make-- that people make now for their iPods—to collections that I play when I'm on the road, starting when I first joined Fleetwood Mac. So I have all the old collections of whatever songs were hits at the time, and then there's just everything else I liked.

[seekerj]

Yes, but this happened about 2 or 3 years BEFORE her label auctioned off her storage vault.



I think it's due to this man's GREED that got us all these Master Reels. (And THANK GOD for his greed, right? Otherwise we wouldn't have these at all -Hahaha) It doesn't take much money to rent time in a simple studio (you can rent studio time for $20 an hour) and most Engineer's fees are about $35 an hour. It also doesn't take much time to have one reel transferred to a CD (one could transfer one complete reel in an hour's time). He was selling individual reels (example "Julia" Master Reel with only Take 8 and 9 on the disc) for nearly $200.00 (compared to maybe $60 it took to have a reel transferred) ~ he knew that the hardcore Stevie fan would pay for it. Some of us never had a chance in owning any of these for several years after until the GENEROSITY of several folks who spent all that money for those reels, yet let us trade and download for FREE.

Simply my opinion, though. :)
You are confusing two different people and two or more different sets of reels. This is not all the same person. The small set that came out first were not from the warehouse sale bulk of reels; in fact, this first small set included a lot of the Julia takes, several takes of The Dealer, and Sanctuary, an Outside The Rain session, and maybe a couple more, like a Gold And Braid reel. These were sold as auctions on ebay at high prices, and then shared eventually through trading. Then, a different person bought the warehouse contents. When the warehouse sale went through, tons more reels were found there. A few of these reels were copies of the ones the first person had, which might be part of the confusion (for example, an Outside The Rain session). (There were also other reels found around this time period, such as the Stevie and Kenny G reel found in a basement of a house that Kenny G had formerly rented.) The first two warehouse reels that were transferred were auctioned on ebay for huge amounts; these were one reel called "Gems", and a reel called "Rhiannon 1978". After those two, the person who owned the warehouse reels never charged that much. And never sold them on ebay. He only sold them directly to try to recoup the studio and storage expenses, and the cost of buying the reels in the first place. When bought directly from him, any given reel's music on cd was never more than $20. And, it was more expensive than you indicate for the whole process of transferring the reels, and the person lost a lot of money, more than you can imagine, as thousands of dollars were spent to buy the warehouse contents in the first place. And lots of people who bought them directly eventually shared freely. So where is the greed?

One other fun fact to squash this "greed" theory is that the owner of the warehouse reels did not want to transfer them at all. He didn't want any part of it and refused to even entertain the suggestion for a very long time. It was only due to the persistence of one fan who wouldn't give up trying to convince him that he finally relented.

I just want people to realize that all the reels did not come from one source, and some sources were in fact greedy, but some sources, in fact the one that the majority came from, were not.

[sorcerer999]

Thanks, Seekerj.

You're right. I think the guy I was talking about (who was selling things on ebay for hundreds of dollars) must have been from the FIRST small set that came out. This correlates with what Saintbernard said were the "common masters". I just assumed all these great sounding reels were from the same person. And you know what happens when one "assumes"? But then I'm used to making an ass out of myself. :laugh:

Grateful to those out there who did their best to make the Master Reels happen (and make them free for all us poor fans) and ungrateful for the first jerk who was selling them for $$$.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion, you guys! :)

[gldstwmn]

Masters are almost always owned by the label, carefully stored, and I really doubt that all of those reel-to-reels circulating the past decade were the only copies.

I thought the producer owned the masters?

[KarmaContestant]

I thought the producer owned the masters?

I believe that the labels own most artists masters, but some artists do own their own. In the case of music, I would think the Producer is the label, since they fund and oversee the process, and usually retain rights for reissues and hit compilations.

Edit: What I mean, is that the Producer of an album fills the role that in a movie would be the Director; and the movie role of Producer would be the role fulfilled by the label.

[bombaysaffires]

I believe that the labels own most artists masters, but some artists do own their own. In the case of music, I would think the Producer is the label, since they fund and oversee the process, and usually retain rights for reissues and hit compilations.

Edit: What I mean, is that the Producer of an album fills the role that in a movie would be the Director; and the movie role of Producer would be the role fulfilled by the label.

yes, an artist can negotiate a number of things in their contract depending on their clout, etc. Owning your masters could be one of those things. Putting out your music on your own label would be another way an artist could own their masters.

[PenguinHead]

I thought the producer owned the masters?

The producer is usually just hired help. They produce the music; they don't own it.

[SorcererJP]

Interesting to read the Reel-stories, but then again.

The whole WY-speech during the last tour, the Secret Love-demo story...it's all marketing I guess.

Stevie said that she ' forgot' about this songs (ok, straight answer after turbulent 70s en 80s), but then again, she used a whole bunch in Say You Will, so she must have a memory or vault somewhere :-)

Besides, long before the days of the internet and Ebay I had been tape trading cassette-tapes with tons of demos and outtakes. I knew the Secret Love demo already in 1989. In the 70's there was the Almanac-bootleg and a few years later the Uncirculated Rumours LP-set all loaded with demos.

So how came these in circulation?

[KarmaContestant]

So how came these in circulation?

Thet came in to circulation because she claims they were stolen. Many came into circulation again, in better quality, when the master reels started circulating in the early 2000's.

I always imagine peopel have snuck into the studio she's working at and made copies of things, knowing there's a market for them. Like that collection of TISL demos.

The demos in circualtion weren't Stevie's only copies - she keeps her own vault of demos she's recorded - but copies were stolen from her over the years. Also, she's admitted to making mix tapes for friends of her demos and giving them away, which surely contributed to them making it into circulation amongst fans.

I'm sure there are many songs in her posession she's forgotten about. She claims to have written hundreds of songs that have never been recorded - for The Other Side of the Mirror, she talked about initally selecting more than 200 demos for consideration.