the Peter/Chris/Danny/John/Mick Mac

[Mr Scarrott]

I've never seen any pictures of the version of the band that toured briefly after Jeremy left in 1971. Does anybody have any? I've always thought of this version of the Mac as the sixth incarnation but Pete Frame and others seem to relegate it to being part of the fifth, which as that included Jeremy doesn't make much sense to me...

Of course, this would mean that the Rumours incarnation would then be the 11th, unless you count Doug Graves as a member and it would be the 12th.... but I digress :sorry:

Even better, are there any boots out there of Peter's brief return? I had thought that all they did were extended jams based on Black Magic Woman but I'm often wrong. There is something on youtube which claims to be of this period, but I have my doubts- see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17bqd4R9b7c for example. It's a great version of Tell me all the things you do, though.

[sharksfan2000]

Yes, the YouTube track you linked is most likely from the show stated there, Swing Auditorium in San Bernardino on 2/19/71. That was the first show with Peter Green and Nigel Watson with the band after Jeremy Spencer's departure. Spencer''s absence can be felt most clearly on the tracks we have from this show by Christine McVie taking over his vocal parts on "The Purple Dancer." "Station Man" and "Tell Me All The Things You Do" from this show first surfaced on the 1970s Merely A Portmanteau vinyl bootleg.

As far as I know, there are three partial shows that have turned up on bootlegs from the period of Peter Green's return to the band in early 1971:

Fleetwood Mac – San Bernardino, 2/19/71
Station Man
Get Like You Used To Be
Dragonfly
The Purple Dancer
I’d Rather Go Blind
Tell Me All The Things You Do

Fleetwood Mac – Fillmore East, New York City, 2/26/71
I’d Rather Go Blind
Jam
Station Man
Jam

Fleetwood Mac – Rock Pile, Long Island, 3/27/71
Jam

As with many bootlegs, the actual venues and dates are just what has been listed, and there's little way to tell if those are accurate, but they may well be correct. The sound quality of the San Bernardino tracks is pretty good, while the sound quality from the other two shows is as bad as it gets, nearly unlistenable.

As the San Bernardino show was Green's first during that tour, he stayed pretty much in the background and I'd assume the band played as much of their usual set as they could handle with respect to Spencer's sudden departure and with Green's and Watson's arrival very shortly before the show. From the bootlegs that have survived, it does look like they did more jamming later in the tour, though it was not strictly jamming. And it's really not that you're wrong about that - it's what has been written about those shows and handed down as fact, but these bootlegs show it was not the case.

In regard to your first question, I've never seen any photos of the band from this tour either, though you'd think some would exist.

[chiliD]

It's a great version of Tell me all the things you do, though.

Probably one of the easier tunes for Peter to pick up quickly...the jam at the end sounds eerily similar to the "Madges".

Considering the circumstances, that San Bernardino show sounds pretty good (the performance...the recording quality isn't all that great, however)

[sharksfan2000]

BTW, I think all of these performances may be on YouTube these days.

[Mr Scarrott]

Well, I'm more convinced now that those cuts on You Tube are from that first San Bernadino show. Peter's playing is very subtle in places- Dragonfly at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoip-Rnsm4s I like especially. The less said about Chris's vocals on Purple Dancer, the better, however! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBRc_RUZx4)

[welcomechris]

This Comment Has Been Removed By It's User

[Wendy Welch]

Why does it say Peter, John, Mick and Chris in 71? Peter wasn't in the band then and Chris had just joined and Bob Welch was definitely in the band in "71. How many people want to act like he wasn't in the band from '71-75 and didn't write and sing half the songs on five albums, as well as play the guitar and sing backup on all of them, during that period?
:shrug:

[sharksfan2000]

Why does it say Peter, John, Mick and Chris in 71? Peter wasn't in the band then and Chris had just joined and Bob Welch was definitely in the band in "71. How many people want to act like he wasn't in the band from '71-75 and didn't write and sing half the songs on five albums, as well as play the guitar and sing backup on all of them, during that period?
:shrug:
It's because we're discussing the period when Peter Green briefly rejoined the band in early 1971 to replace Jeremy Spencer after he left abruptly in the middle of their US tour. Peter finished the tour with the band and then left again, this time permanently. This all happened before Bob Welch joined the band. No one is trying to ignore Bob here, we're just talking about a period before he joined.

[SteveMacD]

Just read about the gold lamme suits that Bob saw when he walked in the door for the first time and then read what he saw in terms of individuals in the band. What we're talking about was really the end of the original Fleetwood Mac. It was the last of the original.

[Wendy Welch]

But Chris McVie just joined less than a year before Bob and Bob joined and was recorded in 1971

[dansven]

But Chris McVie just joined less than a year before Bob and Bob joined and was recorded in 1971

Bob Welch was NOT with Fleetwood Mac during the brief period when Peter re-joined because Jeremy left. That was really the problem: They needed another player, and Bob Welch hadn't joined. Christine had joined the band at that point!! See the setlists, they even played "I'd Rather Go blind" with her on vocals.

The line-up was: Danny, Christine, John, Mick and Peter (+Nigel Watson).
Is that so hard to understand??

[Mr Scarrott]

Is that so hard to understand??

You've made your point, but a little civility costs nothing.

[dansven]

You've made your point, but a little civility costs nothing.

Was it one question mark too much? :p

[sharksfan2000]

Perhaps a brief history lesson may be in order here (from elsewhere on this website):
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/fwm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=51
As 1971 opened, Fleetwood Mac was in its fifth incarnation. As luck would have it, however, it was not destined to last. In February, as Fleetwood Mac was in Los Angeles during another US tour, Jeremy Spencer walked out of his hotel room. Since he missed that night's gig, the crew went looking for him. By the time they found him, two days later, Jeremy's hair had been shorn and with glassy, brainwashed eyes announced that he had joined the Children Of God, one of L.A.'s many religious cults, and was quitting the band. Although clearly a shock to the band and its entourage at the time, this move was in fact long in coming. Never very comfortable in the new leadership role thrust upon him by Green's departure, Spencer, who'd been known to carry a bible sewn to the lining of his jacket, gradually began to lean more heavily on this aspect of his personality.

Green, ironically enough, was drafted to fill out the rest of the tour dates, but ardently declined to play any of the songs that made him (and the band) famous. The shows, as a consequence, consisted mostly of extended jamming, with Green allegedly ambling up to the microphones yelling "Yankee Bastards!" and laughing at the audience.

The only recorded work to come out of this incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, actually released a month after the Spencer departure, was the single "Dragonfly". Released only in Britain, it is Kirwan's (never a strong lyricist) sentimental ode to an insect. Better is the flip side, "The Purple Dancer", which features some strong guitar work from both Spencer and Kirwan, as well as each trading vocal segments.

Cut down to a foursome again by Jeremy Spencer's exodus, Fleetwood Mac for the first (and so far last) time held auditions for a replacement. After auditioning several guitarists, they decided on a Californian named Bob Welch.

Welch, a veteran of a number of unrecorded American soul and R'n'B groups, was hired not so much for his considerable guitar prowess, but because he got along so well with the rest of the band. Expecting to reel off the group's Greatest Hits, he was a bit flabbergasted when he learned that he had to provide original material as well for the next album.

The article continues, and there are details in it that we could quibble about, but on the whole it looks like it presents an accurate timeline of events in early 1971. Of course the "fifth incarnation" mentioned in the opening sentence was Spencer/Kirwan/Fleetwood/J. McVie/C. McVie.

[mzero]

Perhaps a brief history lesson may be in order here (from elsewhere on this website)....
...The article continues, and there are details in it that we could quibble about, but on the whole it looks like it presents an accurate timeline of events in early 1971. Of course the "fifth incarnation" mentioned in the opening sentence was Spencer/Kirwan/Fleetwood/J. McVie/C. McVie.


thanks sf2k - a welcome history lesson or refresher as the case may be. i'd forgotten about yankee bastards!

who's got the pete frame family tree for fleetwood mac? those are excellent

z

[chiliD]

Here 'tis:

http://blog.erreacomunicacion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/fleetwoodmactv1.jpeg

[sharksfan2000]

who's got the pete frame family tree for fleetwood mac? those are excellent
I don't have it myself, but found this image on the web - not as complete as the one chiliD posted but easier to read :)
http://globedia.com/imagenes/noticias/2010/11/17/497861_4.jpg

[SteveMacD]

Personally, I don't really count any of the line-ups post-Mask, pre-Time groupings as official line-ups, since there was really no official, permanent line-up in place at those times, so...

#12
Mick Fleetwood; John McVie; Christine McVie (album only); Bekka Bramlett; Dave Mason; Billy Burnette (eventually)

#13
Mick Fleetwood; John McVie; Stevie Nicks; Lindsey Buckingham

[Mr Scarrott]

Does anyone agree with me that Pete Frame should really have counted the Peter/Danny/Chris/John/Mick lineup from feb-apr 1971 as Fleetwood Mac#6? That kind of makes sense to me. We would then need to renumber all the other incarnations accordingly.

As for post- Mask, pre-Time, I agree things are a bit messy. There's a case for saying that there was a band that consisted of Chris, Stevie, Billy, Mick and John as that lineup actually recorded Heart of Stone , but then there's the semi-live Clinton innauguration, the Superbowl performance without Stevie but with Rick, and that period when Dave and Bekka were in, but Billy wasn't yet back- not that they performed or recorded... it's all a bit ephemeral...

[sharksfan2000]

Does anyone agree with me that Pete Frame should really have counted the Peter/Danny/Chris/John/Mick lineup from feb-apr 1971 as Fleetwood Mac#6? That kind of makes sense to me. We would then need to renumber all the other incarnations accordingly.

As for post- Mask, pre-Time, I agree things are a bit messy. There's a case for saying that there was a band that consisted of Chris, Stevie, Billy, Mick and John as that lineup actually recorded Heart of Stone , but then there's the semi-live Clinton innauguration, the Superbowl performance without Stevie but with Rick, and that period when Dave and Bekka were in, but Billy wasn't yet back- not that they performed or recorded... it's all a bit ephemeral...
No, actually I would not agree with calling the Peter/Danny/Chris/John/Mick lineup #6. And you're forgetting Nigel Watson in any case - if you include Peter Green, then wouldn't he also be part of that lineup? But I wouldn't consider Green and Watson to be more than "touring members" at that stage - from everything I've read, Green made it very clear from the outset that he had no interest in rejoining the band and was only helping them get through their remaining US tour dates. So even though Green founded the band a few years earlier, I have to believe that neither he nor the band considered him (or Watson) a member of the band at that point. And as you know, we've discussed "touring members" vs. "actual band members" here on the board pretty recently! ;)

[Mr Scarrott]

That's an interesting point, sharksfan2000, and may have some validity, but I'm not sure I agree! (it's angels on a pinhead time, I guess).

But interestingly, if we were to follow your logic, then as Jeremy had quit the band, and without Peter being counted as an actual member , then there is a new Fleetwood Mac#6 anyway, as the lineup at that point would have been Chris, Danny, John & Mick .

Then the Chris, Danny, Bob, John and Mick version would be Fleetwood Mac#7 rather than #6.

Pete Frame's #5 doesn't make sense as it is laid out as it makes it look as if Pete and Jeremy were in the band at the same time as Christine and Danny.

[sharksfan2000]

That's an interesting point, sharksfan2000, and may have some validity, but I'm not sure I agree! (it's angels on a pinhead time, I guess).

But interestingly, if we were to follow your logic, then as Jeremy had quit the band, and without Peter being counted as an actual member , then there is a new Fleetwood Mac#6 anyway, as the lineup at that point would have been Chris, Danny, John & Mick .

Then the Chris, Danny, Bob, John and Mick version would be Fleetwood Mac#7 rather than #6.

Pete Frame's #5 doesn't make sense as it is laid out as it makes it look as if Pete and Jeremy were in the band at the same time as Christine and Danny.
Yes, I can see your #6 lineup above making some sense, going from Feb-March 1971. But I can also see the logic in not including it, since it seems clear that this lineup was never thought of as anything but a temporary one - they looked for a second guitarist to complete their lineup as quickly as they could.

I agree that the Pete Frame chart that shows Peter Green being part of his lineup #5 (even with the dashed line and "one tour" qualification) is misleading.

[Mr Scarrott]

Yes, I can see your #6 lineup above making some sense, going from Feb-March 1971. But I can also see the logic in not including it, since it seems clear that this lineup was never thought of as anything but a temporary one - they looked for a second guitarist to complete their lineup as quickly as they could.

Well, Fleetwood Mac#1 was intended to be temporary, wasn't it? It lasted about as long as my putative #6. I wouldn't want to remove the Brunning version from the timeline, even though they were billed as Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac for the entire period of Brunning's participation. And Fleetwood Mac#4 never even toured! It's only counted (rightly, I think) because Chris wasn't a full member during the Kiln House sessions. Then there's the reality of the Jeremy-less Mac that featured on the original pressing of Then Play On. I'm not going to suggest that there was a Peter/Danny/John/Mick lineup that should be considered, you'll be glad to hear.

In the great scheme of things, it doesn't matter that much, but I'm a bit of a nit-picker.

[sharksfan2000]

Well, Fleetwood Mac#1 was intended to be temporary, wasn't it? It lasted about as long as my putative #6. I wouldn't want to remove the Brunning version from the timeline, even though they were billed as Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac for the entire period of Brunning's participation.

In the great scheme of things, it doesn't matter that much, but I'm a bit of a nit-picker.
Nit-picking is welcome here! :D I thought about the Bob Brunning situation too, but I believe there's an important distinction. After Jeremy Spencer left the band, there was no question at all that they were going to find a replacement, it was only a matter of how long it would take to do that. So the post-Spencer / pre-Welch band was certainly a temporary lineup - there was never any doubt of that.

In contrast, Peter Green was hoping that John McVie would join the band in 1967 but there was no certainty in that. McVie had already rejected joining the band at its outset. What if he'd decided he'd be better off continuing to stay with John Mayall? Or what if he'd gotten a better offer from someone else? If that had happened, would Brunning have stayed with Fleetwood Mac long-term? Perhaps not, and we've all read that he knew from the start that he would be out if McVie decided to join. But there's really no way to know how long Brunning might have stayed with the band if McVie had never joined. Brunning played all the band's early shows and he recorded with them too. Had McVie even delayed making the decision to join for another few months, Brunning probably would have recorded the entire first album with the band. Easy in hindsight to say he was just temporary, but events could very well have taken a different course.

[Mr Scarrott]

A temporary line-up still counts, in my opinion, for what it's worth, and they were billed as Fleetwood Mac for that time. It's all subject to nuance, I guess. I suppose the only official acknowledgement of the number of line-ups came in the liner notes of the Greatest Hits album, written by Stephen Davis which refers to the Vito/Burnette band as "Mark XI" so we may have to defer reluctantly to that. Having said that, Davis might simply have got the number from Pete Frame! I can remember an interview with Mick in 1990 in which Mick guessed that there had been ten incarnations so he obviously had given up counting by that point.

There's also a version of the band that I think of as Fleetwood Mac#-1. That's when Green, Fleetwood & McVie were given studio time as a present by John Mayall and recorded the instrumental Fleetwood Mac and a couple of others that were released later on under the band's name. Clearly at that time, they weren't recording as Fleetwood Mac or as the Bluesbreakers but in some other informal capacity. They were a name before they were a band, I think I read somewhere.

[chiliD]

Well, how about an "8a" & list the Stretch guys?? After all, they DID play a few gigs AS "Fleetwood Mac". (semi- :laugh: )

Under "Buckingham Nicks". He mistook Bob Aguirre's name as "Bob Geary". At least he could've spelled it "Bob A. Geary". :laugh:

I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your server &/or bartender. And, try the teriyaki.

[chiliD]

... But there's really no way to know how long Brunning might have stayed with the band if McVie had never joined. Brunning played all the band's early shows and he recorded with them too. Had McVie even delayed making the decision to join for another few months, Brunning probably would have recorded the entire first album with the band. Easy in hindsight to say he was just temporary, but events could very well have taken a different course.

Then we'd all be fans of "Fleetwood Brun".

Hey, {tap, tap, tap} is this mic on? Really, folks, I gotta go...I'll be selling T-shirts at the merchandise counter after the show.

[sharksfan2000]

Well, how about an "8a" & list the Stretch guys?? After all, they DID play a few gigs AS "Fleetwood Mac". (semi- :laugh: ).
Considering how many other bands have had issues with ownership of their band names, resulting in shows with lineups that have had little in common with a lineup that fans would expect, that's not such a far-fetched idea at all. In fact, you might say it's really not much of a stretch.

[Mr Scarrott]

Well, how about an "8a" & list the Stretch guys?? After all, they DID play a few gigs AS "Fleetwood Mac". (semi- :laugh: )

Oops, hoisted by my own petard...;)

[SteveMacD]

A temporary line-up still counts, in my opinion, for what it's worth, and they were billed as Fleetwood Mac for that time. It's all subject to nuance, I guess. I suppose the only official acknowledgement of the number of line-ups came in the liner notes of the Greatest Hits album, written by Stephen Davis which refers to the Vito/Burnette band as "Mark XI" so we may have to defer reluctantly to that. Having said that, Davis might simply have got the number from Pete Frame! I can remember an interview with Mick in 1990 in which Mick guessed that there had been ten incarnations so he obviously had given up counting by that point.
The Pete Frame thing was out years before it was in that book.

I disagree that temporary line-ups count as official line-ups. Those exist only to help the band meet obligations. For example, from 1991-1993, the entity of Fleetwood Mac really only existed because they owed Warner Bros. a box set. Ironically, Clinton used "Don't Stop," and suddenly there was interest in the band again. The band was not really a working entity at that point. The "Rumours" band and the "Mask" band (minus Stevie) did televised shows because the incoming president asked them to and as a way to capitalize on the renewed interest in the band as a way to try and salvage the lagging sales of the boxed set. Lindsey Buckingham, Stevie Nicks, Rick Vito, and (as we would learn) Billy Burnette had no intentions of continuing with the band. Their returns were one-offs.

Now, there is one area where it gets a little murky. The 1993-1994 band (Mick, John, Christine, Bekka, and Dave Mason) released "Blow By Blow" for "Soccer Rocks The Globe" and then Billy asked to come back. Now, from an interview I read with Dave Mason, it didn't sound like Billy was completely rejoining at that point. It mentioned Billy in the same breath as Steve Thoma. I guess one could list that as an official line-up, but I think that's really minutiae.

There's also a version of the band that I think of as Fleetwood Mac#-1. That's when Green, Fleetwood & McVie were given studio time as a present by John Mayall and recorded the instrumental Fleetwood Mac and a couple of others that were released later on under the band's name. Clearly at that time, they weren't recording as Fleetwood Mac or as the Bluesbreakers but in some other informal capacity. They were a name before they were a band, I think I read somewhere.
There wasn't an entity called Fleetwood Mac at that point. They were in fact recording as the Bluesbreakers, just minus John Mayall. Some of those songs appeared on Mayall albums. To put it another way, is "Ramblin' On My Mind" on the Beano album an Eric Clapton song just because John Mayall, John McVie, and Hughie Flint don't appear on it? No, just like "Never Going Back Again" isn't a Lindsey Buckingham solo song.