Homosexuality is illegal in Russia

[Jondalar]

I must be living under a rock. I just heard this and I heard that the Obamas are protesting the olympics. This smacks of nazism to me. I don't get it. The year is 2013, not 1913. Do people ever learn? Totally grossed out about this.

[Dex]

It's not "2013" everywhere in the world, sadly. There are many gay-unfriendly places where much progress has yet to be made on the LGBT-acceptance front. But I'm encouraged by the fact that really, LGBT people have only lived openly even in western society for about 50 years or so, and look how much has changed in that relatively short amount of time. Russia will get there eventually too.

But yes, their recent implementation of a law prohibiting "gay propaganda" (which really seems to mean basically anything up to and including a gay person breathing) is, in a word, a cluster****.

[estranged4life]

But yes, their recent implementation of a law prohibiting "gay propaganda" (which really seems to mean basically anything up to and including a gay person breathing) is, in a word, a cluster****.

the supposed "gay propaganda" is illegal, but otherwise homosexuality is NOT illegal in Russia, however there are African countries where being gay is indeed illegal, and these countries have sent people to prison for being gay...some have even wanted to execute people for being gay in these African countries...Very sad but very true.

The irony with the coming Winter Olympics is that Sochi is the "San Francisco" for gays in Russia, but most here in the US do not know that.

[Dex]

the supposed "gay propaganda" is illegal, but otherwise homosexuality is NOT illegal in Russia, however there are African countries where being gay is indeed illegal, and these countries have sent people to prison for being gay...some have even wanted to execute people for being gay in these African countries...Very sad but very true.

The irony with the coming Winter Olympics is that Sochi is the "San Francisco" for gays in Russia, but most here in the US do not know that.

It's not just African countries. Jamaica and Belize are other examples. Singapore I believe as well. It's actually pretty common among countries which formerly belonged to the British Empire and haven't felt the inclination to update their laws.

Same-sex sex may not be illegal in Russia, but gay propaganda is so poorly defined in this new law, and does seem to include anyone openly saying that they are gay. Which to me amounts to homosexuality being illegal. Nobody can effectively legally prohibit actual same-sex attraction, but prohibiting the statement of such attraction is, to me, the closest thing possible. :shrug:

[KarmaContestant]

After the law was implemented, Madonna was in St. Petersburg on tour and was threatened with fines and possible arrest if she broke the law by spreading 'gay propaganda' at her concert.

Guess it's Gaga, too.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/08/lady-gaga-madonna-facing-punishment-in-russia/

[Jondalar]

I just find the whole thing to be really odd. It's 2014. We are in the information age. Certainly, homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation may not be decided until one is 5 years old or maybe at birth, but once its decided, it's decided.

To me, this just shows that human beings are still ready for another Hitler and there has been little growth at all.

There have always been homosexual people because some people were mean't to be homosexuals.

[TrueFaith77]

My knowledge on this topic is limited. My understanding is that the laws referred to do not ban homosexuality but rather ban propoganda aimed at or distributed to minors that promote alternative sexual lifestyles (other than the married procreative heterosexual norm). Russia has a real population decrease problem. I think that is the "rationale" behind these laws; plus Putin has, in my theory, been recognizing that Russia's Orthodox religious heritage can replace the Soviet myths that once held together the country.

If there is more to the laws (such as a ban on all gay "propoganda" or a ban on certain sexual practices or on assembly of effeminate males at places that serve alcohol (as FDR instituted in the US), I just don't have a resource to determine this--but please share here if y'all know).

[vivfox]

There have always been homosexual people because some people were mean't to be homosexuals.


Were you intending to write heterosexuals?

[Jondalar]

Were you intending to write heterosexuals?

No just saying it is part of the order of things and natural. Not a choice.

[chriskisn]

No just saying it is part of the order of things and natural. Not a choice.

I'm not one of those people who believe that homosexuality (or any other type of sexuality) is necessarily a genetic pre-disposition. I believe at least most of the time, sexuality is shaped by our experiences (and they might be experiences in childhood). It doesn't mean that people consciously choose a sexuality, it is just that we don't generally start out gay or straight. Perhaps it is just because we choose to put labels on things that causes the issues, I'm not sure why we feel the need to classify people into straight, gay, bi etc.

[Dex]

My knowledge on this topic is limited. My understanding is that the laws referred to do not ban homosexuality but rather ban propoganda aimed at or distributed to minors that promote alternative sexual lifestyles (other than the married procreative heterosexual norm). Russia has a real population decrease problem. I think that is the "rationale" behind these laws; plus Putin has, in my theory, been recognizing that Russia's Orthodox religious heritage can replace the Soviet myths that once held together the country.


I think you have the letter of the law, right. It's just that in practice it is much more dangerous than it sounds in those words. Indeed, what is "gay propaganda" really? And what does it mean to "distribute it to minors"? Nobody was ever handing out leaflets to schoolchildren with smiling men saying "I took it up the ass and now every day is an A+!" It seems like any acknowledgement of homosexuality as being not completely awful in any context a minor could possibly ever encounter it could fall under this legal ban. But I agree, we really need someone who is experiencing it first-hand to give us more insight into the realities at the moment.

Your theory about rallying the population around the Orthodox church is an interesting one, and makes sense. I hope nobody is even attempting to frame this as a method of tackling the population decrease problem, though. Because to do so would be completely insane. And also show Putin as having demonstrably horrendous problem-solving skills.

I'm not one of those people who believe that homosexuality (or any other type of sexuality) is necessarily a genetic pre-disposition. I believe at least most of the time, sexuality is shaped by our experiences (and they might be experiences in childhood).

Well, I'd never want to say never, as the field of human psychology is still very much in its baby steps. But really, social scientists have enthusiastically tried to establish a causal link between postnatal environment and sexual orientation for over a hundred years, and still haven't come up with literally anything. The prenatal-environment theories seem to be the ones that are coming up with the goods to back themselves up, however I'm sure there is a complex array of causes involved.

If you're speaking about sexuality more generally, and beyond sexual orientation, then I agree that there could easily be early-life environmental factors, but the whole thing is still a big mystery to us all.

Perhaps it is just because we choose to put labels on things that causes the issues, I'm not sure why we feel the need to classify people into straight, gay, bi etc.

I hear this aversion to labels a lot, and while I think it sounds rather lovely on paper, in practice I really don't get what's so wrong with a label. Especially when it comes to issues of love and sexuality, which are such a major part of adult life in most of the world. These "labels" are just quick ways of acknowledging which gender an individual is predominantly attracted to. Which is valuable information for those of us who want to have a clue what's going on with people. For example, I like a guy, find out he identifies as straight, I move on happily. If he instead says "Oh, I'm not into labels, but I'm really just not very attracted to you even slightly" I can't help but feel a little bit stung, and maybe a bit irritated at how deliberately obtuse he's being. Labels can be pretty awesome, IMO.

[vivfox]

For example, I like a guy, find out he identifies as straight, I move on happily.


I never give up that easily.:lol:

[vivfox]

I'm not one of those people who believe that homosexuality (or any other type of sexuality) is necessarily a genetic pre-disposition. I believe at least most of the time, sexuality is shaped by our experiences (and they might be experiences in childhood). It doesn't mean that people consciously choose a sexuality, it is just that we don't generally start out gay or straight. Perhaps it is just because we choose to put labels on things that causes the issues, I'm not sure why we feel the need to classify people into straight, gay, bi etc.

These are interesting words coming from a person whose sig pic for a long time said something about Str8 people keep having Gay children so why blame Gays for being Gay.

[becca]

I think in Russia, as they used to in the west, they believe homosexuality to be caused by exposure somehow. As Dex says though, there is little science to back anything like that up, but there is hard evidence to show via brain scans or womb conditions that it is prenatally inherent. Personally I see it as a condition of the body and not so much spiritual... the real spiritual aspect to me is the amazing stories of people overcoming often horrendous obstacles to be true to themselves. Sure, you can force someone to act straight, but the problem is it's an act. You have to understand that in America in the past they used to go as far as shock-treatment and lobotomy and that still didn't cure anybody, just made them incapable of practicing anything at 'best'.

I think Russia is simply using a law to give support and shelter to cowardly bullies. The people who genuinely need protection through laws are always minority groups.

[chriskisn]

These are interesting words coming from a person whose sig pic for a long time said something about Str8 people keep having Gay children so why blame Gays for being Gay.

Yeah and my sig pic would still say that but I tried to change it and then couldn't read the new one (was another pro marriage equality one), and then couldn't find the old one to put back on there :lol:

Just because I believe that people aren't necessarily genetically born with a particular sexuality or particular fetishes, etc, doesn't mean that the sig pic wasn't funny when aimed at the anti marriage equality bigots!

[chriskisn]

If you're speaking about sexuality more generally, and beyond sexual orientation, then I agree that there could easily be early-life environmental factors, but the whole thing is still a big mystery to us all.

I guess it goes to everything about sexuality, from orientation to fetishes, etc.


I hear this aversion to labels a lot, and while I think it sounds rather lovely on paper, in practice I really don't get what's so wrong with a label. Especially when it comes to issues of love and sexuality, which are such a major part of adult life in most of the world. These "labels" are just quick ways of acknowledging which gender an individual is predominantly attracted to. Which is valuable information for those of us who want to have a clue what's going on with people. For example, I like a guy, find out he identifies as straight, I move on happily. If he instead says "Oh, I'm not into labels, but I'm really just not very attracted to you even slightly" I can't help but feel a little bit stung, and maybe a bit irritated at how deliberately obtuse he's being. Labels can be pretty awesome, IMO.

But what if the guy was just going through a "straight" period, and if you came back 20 years from now, he might be more receptive? What if sexuality is fluid? Life experiences can change who and what you are.

EDIT:

Just also wanted to add that if homosexuality is genetic then society will start testing for it. I spent A$1500 genetically testing my unborn son for Down Syndrome, and I'm guessing a similar test could then be developed for sexual persuasion. "I'm sorry Mrs Jones, your child will be gay, do you want to abort?" That is a society I don't necessarily want to live in :lol:

Plus, I've never understood why society is so opposed to someone's right to choose their sexuality. I mean if you woke up every morning and said "I think I'll be gay this morning", then WHY THE HELL is that a problem????

[pattyfan]

In a perfect world, it would be fine to be gay, straight, bi, pan, a, or any other sexual. :) But since the world isn't perfect, it's important that the arguments for discriminating against non heterosexuals be shown as fallacious, which is why most people think it's important to show that people don't choose their sexuality. I know that my sexuality wasn't a choice. As far as I understand emotional and physical attraction, you like who you like, and it's never a conscious choice. I would never be able to like or not like someone just because I wanted to, so for me it's interesting that someone here said his sexuality was a choice. If you feel like explaining that, it would be awesome :) (And I know it's hard to judge tone in an electronic message, so just to be totally clear, I'm being 100% sincere and not snarky or sarcastic :) )

With regards to other countries, there are still countries with governments that follow fundamentalist religious ideas, and they still actually put to death gay men. I don't know if they do the same with women. (I'm referring to Iran and Saudi Arabia, btw).

I wish Madonna would have pushed the envelope a little in Russia. Would they really have jailed her? Also, Obama has included 3 openly gay ex-athletes in the US delegation that will go to the Olympics in Russia. Among them is Billie Jean King, who has always been really outspoken for women's rights, especially as they pertain to athletics for women and girls. I'm really really hoping that she is able to in some way stand up to this insane law. I think that gay and lesbian Russians need to feel like the outside world knows what's going on and that they are being supported. As with Madonna, I think that BJK would be a really hard person for Putin to jail. Would he really want to jail a 60 something trailblazer for women's rights?

Kevin

[Dex]

But what if the guy was just going through a "straight" period, and if you came back 20 years from now, he might be more receptive? What if sexuality is fluid? Life experiences can change who and what you are.

Sexuality can be fluid, and this hypothetical guy would be welcome to change labels as the years go by if he felt another one applied to him better. I don't think labels necessitate complete rigidity, they are simply shorthand for communicating what your "deal" is, and that's a handy thing to have. Any other way of effectively communicating that is essentially just going to evolve into another label.

And in truth I don't think most people really experience sexuality all that fluidly. People may have the odd out-of-label attraction now and again, but I don't think they really change all that much. For example, are you or your wife prepared for the possibility that either one of you may wake up one day and feel like your "straight" period is at an end and you no longer feel attraction or romantic love for the other person? If I'm right, probably not. Because it just doesn't really happen much.


Just also wanted to add that if homosexuality is genetic then society will start testing for it. I spent A$1500 genetically testing my unborn son for Down Syndrome, and I'm guessing a similar test could then be developed for sexual persuasion. "I'm sorry Mrs Jones, your child will be gay, do you want to abort?" That is a society I don't necessarily want to live in :lol:

Absolutely. However, the idea of a "gay gene" has been all but completely ruled out with identical twin studies (one identical twin being gay means the other one has a 50% chance of being gay, which is significant, but if it were all a matter of genetics that rate should be 100%). This is why prenatal environment theories are so popular now. One day, it may be possible to effectively test for sexual orientation, but I think that day is pretty far off, and my hope is that society will evolve past a desire for it before it becomes available. Who knows, though? Look how rampant sex-selective abortion is in much of Asia. Yikes.

Plus, I've never understood why society is so opposed to someone's right to choose their sexuality. I mean if you woke up every morning and said "I think I'll be gay this morning", then WHY THE HELL is that a problem????

I really like your idealism. It's not a problem for me. It just isn't, as pattyfan also said, reality. We just don't have that level of control over our sexuality. And it's important to emphasise that to people who use the notion as an excuse to include same-sex attraction under the banner of "immoral behaviour".

(ETA: You should come to ChitChat more often, Chriskisn! It's good to see you here.)

[chriskisn]

And in truth I don't think most people really experience sexuality all that fluidly. People may have the odd out-of-label attraction now and again, but I don't think they really change all that much. For example, are you or your wife prepared for the possibility that either one of you may wake up one day and feel like your "straight" period is at an end and you no longer feel attraction or romantic love for the other person? If I'm right, probably not. Because it just doesn't really happen much.

I guess that waking up one morning and deciding I'm gay is unlikely, but I guess that I could meet a man and develop feelings for him, etc. I'm definitely straight and I acutally find men quite repulsive, but love is funny thing (and really the sexual act isn't really the main issue at all here).

I used to work with a guy who "turned" gay after going through a nasty divorce with his wife and deciding that he hated women and never wanted to be with another one. Up until that point I don't think he'd ever entertained the idea of being gay.

Plus, plenty of people are bisexual, and perhaps they are the ones in touch with their true sexuality? I've seen people (especially women interestingly enough) jump between long-term relationships with men and women.

I really like your idealism. It's not a problem for me. It just isn't, as pattyfan also said, reality. We just don't have that level of control over our sexuality. And it's important to emphasise that to people who use the notion as an excuse to include same-sex attraction under the banner of "immoral behaviour".


No we don't have that level of control, and unfortunately some people do seem to think that it really is a lifestyle choice.

[becca]

Re: people willfully deciding to be gay, why does that never seem to include straight people making a decision to be straight? :)

Here's an odd digression... I was born left handed but was re-educated to become a righty. Perhaps I was actually ambidextrous though otherwise the new conditioning couldn't have worked? I guess I'm equating sexuality to being right or left handed (or a goofy footer in the surfing world)... actually that makes a lot of sense to me. :woohoo:

I did revert somewhat though; I couldn't be without my left-handed ruler when working on art. :eek:

Duck Dynasty man has already put his foot in his mouth again, quicker than Zimmerman creating another situation? Something about you have to marry girls at 15-16 or they are no good? And people watch that show for a glimpse into their exciting entertaining world? :shocked:

[chriskisn]

Here's an odd digression... I was born left handed but was re-educated to become a righty. Perhaps I was actually ambidextrous though otherwise the new conditioning couldn't have worked? I guess I'm equating sexuality to being right or left handed (or a goofy footer in the surfing world)... actually that makes a lot of sense to me. :woohoo:


My wife's nanna was left handed and apparently they used to hit her if she tried to use her left hand. I think they also used to tie the left hand behind the back so that she had to use her right. Hence when she died last year at nearly 90 she was right handed...

There are people who have claimed that those church based "re-education" courses to make yourself straight again have worked. :shrug:

[chriskisn]

This is why prenatal environment theories are so popular now.

Too much stress in pregnancy can lead to a gay baby...which unfortunately means in time of war or famine the number of gay babies should increase? :lol:

[Dex]

My wife's nanna was left handed and apparently they used to hit her if she tried to use her left hand. I think they also used to tie the left hand behind the back so that she had to use her right. Hence when she died last year at nearly 90 she was right handed...

There are people who have claimed that those church based "re-education" courses to make yourself straight again have worked. :shrug:

This is where the analogy falls apart. History is full of men who have tried desperately to be attracted to women out of societal pressure, and simply can't do it. This is why we have so many men married to women who secretly go out to have sex with strangers in parks instead of with their wives at home. The notion that everyone is bisexual does a disservice to the struggles of people who feel trapped in a heteronormative society and can't make it work. Granted, I think more people are bisexual than they may lead us to believe or even realize themselves, sure.

Those "re-education" courses are, to me, more proof in the pudding of how rigid sexuality can be in many people. Have you ever heard any "testimonies" from places like that? Mostly the "success" seems to involve an enormous amount of repression and forcing oneself to focus on other things. That's at best. At worst these courses result in lifelong depression and even suicide. There may be some men with bisexual tendencies who are able to ignore their same-sex attractions at the end of the course and focus on other elements of their sexuality, and I'm sure many involved in those programs would consider that "working". I do not.

[TrueFaith77]

Great book on the subject of sexuality (and even the ex-gay stuff): Sexual Authenticity: More Reflections by Melinda Selmys

http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Authenticity-Reflections-Melinda-Selmys/dp/0991909836/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1388764321&sr=8-2&keywords=sexual+authenticity



She's a genius

[chriskisn]

This is where the analogy falls apart. History is full of men who have tried desperately to be attracted to women out of societal pressure, and simply can't do it. This is why we have so many men married to women who secretly go out to have sex with strangers in parks instead of with their wives at home. The notion that everyone is bisexual does a disservice to the struggles of people who feel trapped in a heteronormative society and can't make it work. Granted, I think more people are bisexual than they may lead us to believe or even realize themselves, sure.


I really don't know why society has so much concern about what people do in their bedrooms. As long as both parties (or however many) are consenting and of an age to make informed consent, and no-one else is getting hurt or bothered, when really I don't care what people do.

I'm a strong advocate for "gay marriage" or more correctly marriage equality, not because I'm gay or because I want to be, but simply because I really don't care if people are gay or otherwise and I see no logical reason to stop them marrying if they want to, or indeed not marrying if they don't want to.

As a Dad of two boys and an uncle of another, I have at least a chance that one of them might be gay, and I believe that if when they are older they want to marry the person they love, then they should have that right.

However, pretty sure my three year old is straight. He goes up and cuddles random pretty teenage girls, says "Hello pretty lady" to women serving in shops, and cuddles random cute little blond girls a year or two older than himself and says "I love you" to them. Pretty sure he's not the gay one :lol:

[Jondalar]

I really don't know why society has so much concern about what people do in their bedrooms. As long as both parties (or however many) are consenting and of an age to make informed consent, and no-one else is getting hurt or bothered, when really I don't care what people do.

I'm a strong advocate for "gay marriage" or more correctly marriage equality, not because I'm gay or because I want to be, but simply because I really don't care if people are gay or otherwise and I see no logical reason to stop them marrying if they want to, or indeed not marrying if they don't want to.

As a Dad of two boys and an uncle of another, I have at least a chance that one of them might be gay, and I believe that if when they are older they want to marry the person they love, then they should have that right.

However, pretty sure my three year old is straight. He goes up and cuddles random pretty teenage girls, says "Hello pretty lady" to women serving in shops, and cuddles random cute little blond girls a year or two older than himself and says "I love you" to them. Pretty sure he's not the gay one :lol:

I have a sister who has made a ton of mistakes in life and she has been born again about 140 times. It seems like every time she causes major trouble she asks Jesus to forgive her and then she turns into a bible thumper. Suddenly, she starts judging others people actions. Homosexuaility is on the top of her list. Instead of being the one who is judged for her crappy actions, she becomes the executioner, so to speak. There is no way I can think of that she is going to heaven, if heaven exists.

I love her, but what she is doing is so basic and juvenile and she will never see light. She cannot control her needs and will always take a fall. I look at her life and she is no different than millions out there. She needs to feel good about herself again, so pointing the finger and homosexuals is the easiest thing.

just a rant….

[I'msoAfraid95]

I'll still never understand why the government "needs" to play a role in its citizens' private/bedroom lives.

In Russia, is it just gay or all letters of the LGBT?

[I'msoAfraid95]

Here's poof that stupidity and being non educated are still around in America:http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=17415&MediaType=1&Category=26 (I left a comment on there, the with Bad Company's logo)

[KarmaContestant]

I have a sister who has made a ton of mistakes in life and she has been born again about 140 times. It seems like every time she causes major trouble she asks Jesus to forgive her and then she turns into a bible thumper. Suddenly, she starts judging others people actions. Homosexuaility is on the top of her list. Instead of being the one who is judged for her crappy actions, she becomes the executioner, so to speak. There is no way I can think of that she is going to heaven, if heaven exists.

I love her, but what she is doing is so basic and juvenile and she will never see light. She cannot control her needs and will always take a fall. I look at her life and she is no different than millions out there. She needs to feel good about herself again, so pointing the finger and homosexuals is the easiest thing.


Wow.

I think this is pretty common behavior for a certain type of person, religious or not. We've all known them in one form or another - people who show little to no regard for their own actions and behavior, and yet truly believe that their character depends on how much they blame others, and point fingers at others, instead of examining their own lives. "The more I tattle on the other kids, the better the teacher will like me."

:rolleyes:

[I'msoAfraid95]

I have a sister who has made a ton of mistakes in life and she has been born again about 140 times. It seems like every time she causes major trouble she asks Jesus to forgive her and then she turns into a bible thumper. Suddenly, she starts judging others people actions. Homosexuaility is on the top of her list. Instead of being the one who is judged for her crappy actions, she becomes the executioner, so to speak. There is no way I can think of that she is going to heaven, if heaven exists.

I love her, but what she is doing is so basic and juvenile and she will never see light. She cannot control her needs and will always take a fall. I look at her life and she is no different than millions out there. She needs to feel good about herself again, so pointing the finger and homosexuals is the easiest thing.

just a rant….

My uncle is currently doing the same thing. He's definitely commited sins/broke the law and will have that hanging over him for a long time. He got "jailhouse religion" and is now a preaching bigot. My grandfather, who is a retired pastor, is more accepting! He's judging everybody else, but doesn't think he did anything wrong. Religious people like that make me sick. Unfortunately, that is tye norm here.

[I'msoAfraid95]

The thing that gets me with some Christians(not all) is how much they stand behind that Leviticus verse. Yet they completely forget the other verses in that book. (Not eating pork, no multi fabric clothes etc). I asked about that and the response was "onlu jews have to follow those verses. Christians follow the New Testament". Ok, then that verse doesn't apply. Plus the bible has been ripped to pieces and mistranslated. Some books were left out etc.

[Jondalar]

The thing that gets me with some Christians(not all) is how much they stand behind that Leviticus verse. Yet they completely forget the other verses in that book. (Not eating pork, no multi fabric clothes etc). I asked about that and the response was "onlu jews have to follow those verses. Christians follow the New Testament". Ok, then that verse doesn't apply. Plus the bible has been ripped to pieces and mistranslated. Some books were left out etc.

Christians have it made - instant forgiveness! They can sin all they want - beat up homosexuals, molest their kids, bully people, lie, cheat and steal. It doesn't matter. At the end of their lives all they have to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and they are cleansed. Blah… That is why that religion is soo popular. It's a religion of convenience.

[I'msoAfraid95]

Christians have it made - instant forgiveness! They can sin all they want - beat up homosexuals, molest their kids, bully people, lie, cheat and steal. It doesn't matter. At the end of their lives all they have to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and they are cleansed. Blah… That is why that religion is soo popular. It's a religion of convenience.

I was raised in it, with different family members being of different denominations of Protestism(sp?). I couldn't agree more. A serial killer can go to heaven if he believes and asks for forgiveness, but a good person who doesn't goes straight to hell? :confused::shocked:

[becca]

I remember back when Dr. Laura was spouting some Leviticus on the radio airwaves... someone made the point that the Bible also says that 'the scent of burning oxen flesh is pleasing to the Lord'. For some reason to me that kind of said all anyone really needs to say to any self-righteous scripture quoter... even better somehow than the timber in thine own eye zinger.

Then there is the middle monkey, having been hit by the big monkey, turning on the littlest monkey. That's older than the Bible.

[Jondalar]

I was raised in it, with different family members being of different denominations of Protestism(sp?). I couldn't agree more. A serial killer can go to heaven if he believes and asks for forgiveness, but a good person who doesn't goes straight to hell? :confused::shocked:

Yeah, it's total bull****.