Relocated Christianity Topic

[Deeshere]

You're absolutely correct that it doesn't make it "ok".
And for the record, I haven't read every post in this
thread.

I usually don't get offended if the insults are directed
at me, for what I like and don't like musically. What I
do get tired of is the Christian bashing that takes place
regularly on The Ledge. For some reason that must be
okay with the moderators. Want proof? Just take a little
glance over at the Chit Chat section. If I'm thrown out
for that - so be it.

It's OK, no need to go back and read every post. The overall theme of this discussion was not just what was being said in this thread, but what wad being said all over the board.

Like I said I'm glad you don't get offended easily. I'm actually pretty easy to get along with too. I do get upset when I feel like others are being mistreated though.

Really, there's Christian bashing going on? I did not know. I may not want to venture into the chit chat section then because I really don't want to have to start quoting scriptures' right now...

[vivfox]

Really, there's Christian bashing going on?
The Christian religion was not being bashed. That poster expressed many anti Gay sentiments with biblical scriptures and it ticked off the community as it should.

[Deeshere]

The Christian religion was not being bashed. That poster expressed many anti Gay sentiments with biblical scriptures and it ticked off the community as it should.

OH OK..I get it.Thanks for clarifying what was going on. I really don't want to argue with anyone anyway, because I really don't like arguing but I will if I think the issue is important enough. :nod:

[iamnotafraid]

The Christian religion was not being bashed. That poster expressed many anti Gay sentiments with biblical scriptures and it ticked off the community as it should.


For your information, I wasn't even talking about one
particular thread. Neither did I name names. It's more
an anti-Christian sentiment that's allowed to go on here.
And it's not just in the Chit Chat section.

But honestly that's expected. Even the most clever of
them might not see it going on.

Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with
their ears,

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn...

[vivfox]

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn...


There's a hip hop song I like from 2006 that says, "if you're a scared mofo go to church." I like the song and I'm a Christian but I am not offended. I never preach to people because that is not my job. I am not clergy. If I were you I might forget the sermons to the Ledgies and just try to figure out the best way to plow the farm fields and while doing that try and perfect my sense of humor so as not to malign anyone.

[Deeshere]

There's a hip hop song I like from 2006 that says, "if you're a scared mofo go to church."

I've actually heard that song and it's pretty catchy ..:lol:

[iamnotafraid]

I'm a Christian... I never preach to people because that is not my job. I am not clergy. If I were you I might forget the sermons...


You're a Christian, but it's not your job to preach?

Mark 16:15 says differently,

And He said unto them, "Go into all the world and
preach the gospel to every creature.

And continues in verse 16,
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he
who does not will be condemned.

[Macfanforever]

I enjoy the band Stryper and they send out a good message in their songs.

[vivfox]

And He said unto them, "Go into all the world and
preach the gospel to every creature.


I'm sure my neighbor's cat will benefit from my words.

[Dex]

Mark 16:15 was written pre-Internet era. Totally different context. I think it's safe to assume that at this point most of the citizens of the western world are familiar with the basics of Christianity, how to get more information, and can make an informed decision about their own beliefs. No need to carry on about it to your neighbours and their fish at this point.

I have never encountered a post here that would be considered anti-Christian in sentiment. I'm not saying you're incorrect, iamnotafraid. I just might like an example.

[iamnotafraid]

I'm sure my neighbor's cat will benefit from my words.

Again you say you're a Christian, and yet you mock the Word of God.

You've made it abundantly clear you don't like me through your many
post and even a private message wanting me to leave. Even Carrie called
you on that. Yet you persist.

I have not attacked you and don't plan on doing so. I just wish for your
soul's sake you'd reconsider God's Holy Words.

[iamnotafraid]

Mark 16:15 was written pre-Internet era. Totally different context...No need to carry on about it to your neighbours and their fish at this point.

I have never encountered a post here that would be considered anti-Christian in sentiment. I'm not saying you're incorrect, iamnotafraid. I just might like an example.


Dex,
We all have a role to play in God's great commission. And
there is a need to "carry on" about it to our neighbors, for
their soul's sake. Like the poster before you, I'd be careful
with what looks like mocking God's Word. I'm sure you're
of the intelligence that you understood what that scripture
meant.

As for an example, there are so many. Religion and political
threads usually end up that way. Though the persecutions
are spread throughout the Ledge.

It's not unexpected though. I just hope and pray that all of
us shall be ready to meet the Lord Jesus. From the signs of
the times, his return looks to be soon.

[Dex]

I like to think I'm intelligent enough to understand the ol' good book, yes. And I do understand what that passage is supposed to mean. But seriously. The word is spread. At some point it's time to say "message received". It is possible to cross a line and become an annoyance to people and alienate them from your beliefs, which is something I think many Christians have ended up doing lately, and is actually in conflict with the initial intention of proselytizing. It may also be the cause for much of what you perceive to be Christian bashing that goes on in the modern secular world.

[becca]

I'm not into who thinks they are more christian than someone else. Actions trump words, or no praying in public which we are warned against doing. 'By their works' etc. :nod:

I haven't noticed any unreasonable anti-christian atmosphere here over the years. Using anything as an excuse to 'cast the first stone' of intolerance is going to have the expected result or irritating the target.

[vivfox]

Again you say you're a Christian, and yet you mock the Word of God.

You've made it abundantly clear you don't like me through your many
post and even a private message wanting me to leave. Even Carrie called
you on that. Yet you persist.

I have not attacked you and don't plan on doing so. I just wish for your
soul's sake you'd reconsider God's Holy Words.

I don't know what you are referring to with the Carrie reference. Didn't she get banned 2 years ago?

[Silver23]

I agree with becca,


I have not noticed anything anti-Christianity on the ledge.

Not to kiss butt, but I've noticed that most posters here are pretty polite even if they have viewpoints that differ from mine.

[WatchChain]

I was raised as a Christian. I am a spiritual person that subscribes to a higher power. There are many beautiful ideas surrounding the Christian religion. What I'm growing weary of is BIBLICAL LITERALISM and continually witnessing Christian fundamentalists curling up in a ball and constantly complaining that they are being picked on and shunned by society at large. If anything, I have watched countless Christians throughout history who systematically pick on and ostracize those who do not fit a certain mold.

Recently, at my place of employment, after a staff development meeting a former pastor put out a call to end the meeting with a staff prayer asking Jesus to bless our workplace. Many of the Christians in the room broke down in tears because their hero was bold enough to bring Jesus into the workplace where they feel "picked on" for being Christians. The boss proclaimed that we could pray, and those not wishing to participate could be dismissed. Hmmm.....I wonder who was taking notes on the staff members choosing to be "dismissed". Although our staff is predominately Christian, we do have members that subscribe to other religions or none at all.
So, I joined in to pray.....not really a problem for me. But, is this really the right place?

[QueenStevie]

Mark 16:15 says...

And He said unto them, "Go into all the world and
preach the gospel to every creature.

And continues in verse 16,
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he
who does not will be condemned.

It's an INSULT to God and Christians that the preaching stenographer was called "a mental case" by others!: http://twitchy.com/2013/10/16/praise-be-to-god-congressional-stenographer-kicked-off-house-floor

[KarmaContestant]

I agree with becca,


I have not noticed anything anti-Christianity on the ledge.

Not to kiss butt, but I've noticed that most posters here are pretty polite even if they have viewpoints that differ from mine.

This thread is not a good place for me to be but I wanted to jump in here and admit that I, personally, have engaged in discussions here that were not exactly flattering to Christianity. I think it's important to put them into persepctive, though. I believe faith is *personal*, and I believe Jesus did as well. Religion does not belong in politics or government, and this is one of the guiding policies our Founders built this nation on.

When I have said things that could be construed as 'bashing' Christianity, it was from the perspective of bashing their involvement in government issues and politics, for hypocrisy, and for pushing their noses into the personal lives of people who do not wish for the Church's moral guidance. It would not matter if it were Christianity, Judeaism, Islam, Confucianism or the Hindi faith. Faith is personal, and doesn't belong in government. On the other hand, government is for *all* of us, regardless of our faith, and must be unbiased. The only way to acomplish this is to maintain a distict and firm line between elected, representative government and religion.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the faith and spirituality of others - I am a very spiritual person myself, with beliefs of my own that would surely be mocked if shared with the wrong people. I keep my personal faith personal, and often wish others would do the same. That said, I do take great offense in the mocking and disrespect of another's faith, because I would not want the same to be done to me - it comes down to a simple rule of thumb that so many people who claim to be devoted followers of Christ forget all too often - do unto others... But I will always, always stand up for the principle that no religion, no faith, no church, no scripture from any source belongs in 0ur laws or in the interpretation of those laws by our courts or elected representatives.

And I sincerely hope that my words can be taken at face value, because I have no ulterior motives and I'm not secretly or covertly trying to offend anyone.

[KarmaContestant]

It's an INSULT to God and Christians that the preaching stenographer was called "a mental case" by others!: http://twitchy.com/2013/10/16/praise-be-to-god-congressional-stenographer-kicked-off-house-floor

To be fair, she kind of...rambled nonsense.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/17/house-stenographer-sent-mental-exam-after-floor-ra/

“The greatest deception here is this is not one nation under God. It never was. Had it been, it would not have been. No. It would not have been. The Constitution would not have been written by Free Masons. They go against God. You cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve two masters. Praise be to God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise forever.”

[Dex]

To be fair, she kind of...rambled nonsense.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/17/house-stenographer-sent-mental-exam-after-floor-ra/

“The greatest deception here is this is not one nation under God. It never was. Had it been, it would not have been. No. It would not have been. The Constitution would not have been written by Free Masons. They go against God. You cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve two masters. Praise be to God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise forever.”

Agreed.

Just because you're a Christian doesn't necessarily mean you aren't insane, too. ;)

[QueenStevie]

Agreed.

Just because you're a Christian doesn't necessarily mean you aren't insane, too. ;)

Her doing what she did does NOT necessarily make her insane, you know!

[Dex]

Her doing what she did does NOT necessarily make her insane, you know!

No, it just makes her a massive disruption. And people were concerned. That's why she went for assessment. No diagnosis was made solely on the basis of what she did.

[QueenStevie]

No, it just makes her a massive disruption. And people were concerned. That's why she went for assessment. No diagnosis was made solely on the basis of what she did.

She went for a mental health assessment because they pre-judged her to be mentally ill!

[Dex]

Because they thought there was a possibility that she was mentally ill. Due to what they saw as a radical and disruptive change in her behaviour. Not because she was Christian.

[vivfox]

Because they thought there was a possibility that she was mentally ill. Due to what they saw as a radical and disruptive change in her behaviour. Not because she was Christian.


Who in the heck are you two talking about?

[Dex]

To be fair, she kind of...rambled nonsense.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/17/house-stenographer-sent-mental-exam-after-floor-ra/

“The greatest deception here is this is not one nation under God. It never was. Had it been, it would not have been. No. It would not have been. The Constitution would not have been written by Free Masons. They go against God. You cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve two masters. Praise be to God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise forever.”

The article linked there, viv. :) IMO it's a bit of a non-event, news-wise, unless you're trying to make it about something it clearly wasn't.

[Macfanforever]

The girl probably upset and got tired of all the shenanigans going on there and she out burst .


Hearing all the BS on the floor for almost 3 weeks from the officials would make anybody go nuts.

I think they over reacted with sending her out.

[HomerMcvie]

I will admit that I'm usually a little prejudiced against religious people. I'm not religious at all, and if they push it on me, well, that's a turn off, man!:lol:

[RickRobert]

How does a religious debate get started on a Fleetwood Mac forum? :confused::confused::confused:

[Sapphire Girl]

How does a religious debate get started on a Fleetwood Mac forum? :confused::confused::confused:

It gets started in the Chit Chat forum when someone comes up with an observation or a question, types out his thoughts, and hits the submit reply button.

[markolas]

Queen Stevie= rose gypsy

[becca]

It's been weird seeing a lot of the mixing of religion and u.s. politics during the recent shutdown/default 'thing. There was a lot from both sides (though usually I dislike the both sides are to blame quip), and I find such moments jarring, maybe as they are still predicated on some ideal of everyone being christian. Meanwhile there were some comments invoking Islam like it was a put down that went mostly unchallenged, and that was from some who do the most praying in public as 'good' christians. I can't imagine as a christian not saying something about a confederate flag being around (even had a relative who fought in the u.s. civil war), never mind in relation to the first black president. A christian we are taught does not throw the first stone (except under delusion of being without sin), and certainly not such nasty underhanded stones. The problem is not that people are christians, but that they aren't christian enough in my opinion. President (not just Mr.) Obama is in fact a christian and has provably donated personally to charity without showing off about it for many years while a former opponent for the job donated to only one church that used the money to deny rights to gay people in various states, pretty much to the limit only of what would get him a tax write-off, and even then we never had a single full year's information about that, but he used it in his campaign as a fact showing his christian charity.

Basic truth... hate = no future, that applies to everyone.

[iamnotafraid]

christian
Islam
christians
christian
christian
christians
christian
christian
christian.

Basic truth... hate = no future, that applies to everyone.

I'm curious to why you would capitalize Islam
but not Christian or Christians?

As far as hate goes, it's really according to what you mean?
Calling a sin, a sin is not hate. The ones who say it's okay
or placate sin are not "loving" the sinner. They are actually
doing more harm by leading them further into darkness.

You mentioned tithing, and as Christians we are supposed to
bring in our tithes and offerings. The Holy Bible is very clear
on this. The Lord says to "test Him" in this. You will be blessed.

I don't care to argue with you about politics. But during the
elections I saw figures that differed from yours, or the idea of
"your's" on tithing from some of our leaders.

Of course I'm hoping that most of you know that tithing has
nothing to do with your salvation. It has to do with whether
or not you have accepted Christ as your Savior. There is no
hope unless you are covered by His Blood.

[becca]

This would be because I'm in on the conspiracy to elevate one and minimize the other. Oh yes, and also to destroy christmas which is gearing up to be the next big Tea Party righteous revolution battle flag from the sounds of things. Guess one can't possibly be a real christian unless they capitalize it though... but I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those snoopy kids and their dog!

It's ironic to see Stevie Nicks fans who are aggressive in their capital C Christianity considering how angry her song Rhiannon made so many of them. It was banned from some playlists when it came out I remember, and it was cited as proof the entire group was devil worshippers along with the Eagles and Abba among a long list by a pastor at the Chrsitian school I attended for two years.

:shrug:

[Macfanforever]

The real meaning of Christmas is lost because of commercialism.
The greedy companies love this time of the year.

[iamnotafraid]

The real meaning of Christmas is lost because of commercialism.

Many people even get offended by the Nativity scene.
Offended by the birth of the Savior.

____________________________________

Becca,
I only asked you why you didn't capitalize Christian(s).
Nowhere in my post did I say that you weren't a Christian.

[Dex]

I'm curious to why you would capitalize Islam
but not Christian or Christians?


Those words aren't quite gramatically comparable. One refers to an entire religion and a unique entity, while the other refers to any given adherent. Generally, I might capitalize Christianity and Islam but might not capitalize christian or muslim. However, I have since looked it up and in fact I'm incorrect, and capitalizing Christian appropriate, even when it's used as an adjective. The mistake is mine/becca's. But your deliberate drawing of such attention to it does sort of come off as though you're implying something beyond mere a grammatical error, iamnotafriad. Just so you're aware. I kinda dug her response.

Many people even get offended by the Nativity scene.
Offended by the birth of the Savior.


Have you ever talked to anyone who is actually "offended" by a nativity scene? If so, what did they say? I think a lot of conservative Christians confuse "offense" with "alienation", which is a rather different thing. Personally, when I see a big display of a Biblical scene in public somewhere, I make assumptions about whoever put it up. I assume whoever did it is a possibly conservative Christian, which is a group I've historically had difficult dealings with in the past on a personal level. I would never request that any display be removed from a private business (public/government-owned areas are another matter entirely) but honestly? I do find it a little alienating, even only subconsciously, and I might be inclined to take my business elsewhere. I know I'm generalizing Christians and that's probably something I need to work on. But I know many members of cultural/religious minorities feel similarly, and can certainly see how private business owners might pick up on that kind of consumer response and be inclined to appear religiously neutral when possible. It's a much more nuanced/internalized phenomenon than many news reports would portray it as, and is much more driven by sheer capitalism than political correctness or some desire for religious oppression.

[iamnotafraid]

The mistake is mine/becca's. But your deliberate drawing of such attention to it does sort of come off as though you're implying something beyond mere a grammatical error, iamnotafriad. Just so you're aware.



Have you ever talked to anyone who is actually "offended" by a nativity scene? If so, what did they say?

I would never request that any display be removed from a private business (public/government-owned areas are another matter entirely) but honestly? I do find it a little alienating, even only subconsciously, and I might be inclined to take my business elsewhere. I know I'm generalizing Christians and that's probably something I need to work on. But I know many members of cultural/religious minorities feel similarly, and can certainly see how private business owners might pick up on that kind of consumer response and be inclined to appear religiously neutral when possible.


Dex,
Thank you for your questions and comments.

Since I don't know Becca, I didn't just assume that they were
"grammatical" errors. If the ratio hadn't been so high (8:1), again
I might have thought differently. I thought she might be saying
something, or implying something by not capitalizing the word Christian.

For grammar or grammatical errors only - I would not correct or comment.
My own post would stop me from that.

I live in the South, and it seems there are more Christians (Conservative
Christians) percentage wise in our area of the U.S., but we still have to
deal with people complaining about public displays such as the Nativity
Scene. "One" local atheist raised a big complaint about this very thing last
year. The same type thing goes on at our local high school football games and
graduations - no prayer.

Years ago my first job (other than our farm) was at a retail store. On the back
wall of our store was painted these words "Ye Shall Know The Truth, And The
Truth Shall Make You Free". We had to paint over those words because the
chain store I worked for decided it might offend someone (there might have
been a complaint, that I don't remember). The store put $$$ before God.
Some of us complained to management, but they didn't listen. But I can guarantee
you that I wasn't the one who painted over those words.

So yes in many ways I've had to deal with persecution because of my belief in
Christ. But it is expected. I'll have to find the verse, but Jesus told us we will
be persecuted. But in know way am I implying that I've been persecuted as
some of His followers have.

I rarely talk "serious" on this board. Most of my post are silly jokes or observations.
But this is the most serious topic we can talk about. And I witness to you that Jesus
is The Christ. Only through Him is our salvation. And now is the day of salvation.

[vivfox]

But in know way am I implying that I've been persecuted as
some of His followers have.


I rarely talk "serious" on this board. Most of my post are silly jokes or observations.


no

It's hard to take someone seriously who is always joking.

[Dex]

So yes in many ways I've had to deal with persecution because of my belief in
Christ. But it is expected. I'll have to find the verse, but Jesus told us we will
be persecuted. But in know way am I implying that I've been persecuted as
some of His followers have.

I'm really sorry, iamnotafraid, but from your post it sounds to me like you have had to deal with persecution in absolutely no way whatsoever. If you think the events you've described constitute persecution you've lead a privileged life indeed. Not that that's a bad thing, but c'mon, really? Your employer didn't want to risk alienating potential customers/clients in his place of business? A citizen in town didn't want his government showing public favour to certain beliefs over others? What am I missing? How does any of that infringe on your ability to worship as you wish or how your religion prescribes?

Were you punished for refusing to paint over those words in your first job? If so, that would be a form of religious persecution, but I suspect you'd have mentioned it if that had been the case.

Are you, in fact, truly not allowed to pray at a football game? There are usually only rules prohibiting publicly led prayer by members of authority in secular venues (a public high school). Try praying at a high school football game. Get a group of friends to pray with you. I bet the farm you won't get into any trouble. I come from liberal, atheist Canada, and my good friend prayed 3 times a day throughout public school without issue. No probs. If, on the other hand, a teacher had requested that I or anyone else join her in prayer for whatever reason, someone may have taken issue. But those scenarios are not the same at all.

[iamnotafraid]

It's hard to take someone seriously who is always joking.


That I can understand.


______________________________________

Dex,
I was just giving you a few simple examples that weren't
so personal. I don't want this thread to be about me, it
wasn't even started by me. Though I would be glad to
witness before anyone here.

It was originally about the Christian bashing that takes
place on here. Almost every thread that is political or
has to do with homosexuality, devolves into a free-for-all
against Christians and our beliefs.

I'm not asking you or anyone to take my word for it. Take
a glance through the Ledge they're easy to find.

My concern is honestly more about peoples souls - where
they end up, than about the persecution of Christians. If
you want to take it in that direction, all the better.

[KarmaContestant]

Her doing what she did does NOT necessarily make her insane, you know!

Yes - I agree - I would never have said she's insane. But she could very well be suffering from a nervous breakdown!

[KarmaContestant]

Queen Stevie= rose gypsy

omg I remember rose gypsy.

[jannieC]

This thread is interesting but makes me happy not to be a moderator anymore.

P.S. And yes, I realize this post did nothing to add to the thread.

[Dex]

Dex,
I was just giving you a few simple examples that weren't
so personal. I don't want this thread to be about me, it
wasn't even started by me. Though I would be glad to
witness before anyone here.

It was originally about the Christian bashing that takes
place on here. Almost every thread that is political or
has to do with homosexuality, devolves into a free-for-all
against Christians and our beliefs.

I'm not asking you or anyone to take my word for it. Take
a glance through the Ledge they're easy to find.

My concern is honestly more about peoples souls - where
they end up, than about the persecution of Christians. If
you want to take it in that direction, all the better.

You did not give examples of persecution at all, though. That's my point. Those aren't incidences of persecution, however mild. Those are examples of a loss of Christian privilege in what has always officially been a secular egalitarian nation. I think the genuine confusion of the two concepts among many American Christians is something that's important to point out, so I wanted to highlight it. I think it's important to make people aware of the privileges they've enjoyed perhaps without realising it.

I think we can safely say that this topic as it has been relocated is more broadly about Christianity altogether and we can touch on all sorts of topics.

If it is souls that you are concerned about. It may interest you to know that I now live in a country which is officially Christian (unlike the US), prayer can be enforced in state schools etc. And yet the people here are, generally speaking, more openly irreligious than I've ever experienced in North America. Keeping religion on a relatively private level isn't harmful, and putting it out there on a public level isn't really helpful either. At the end of the day, people will believe what they will, and make their own spiritual choices.

[iamnotafraid]

You did not give examples of persecution at all, though.

Those are examples of a loss of Christian privilege in what has always officially been a secular egalitarian nation. I think it's important to make people aware of the privileges they've enjoyed perhaps without realising it.


If it is souls that you are concerned about...

Keeping religion on a relatively private level isn't harmful, and putting it out there on a public level isn't really helpful either. At the end of the day, people will believe what they will, and make their own spiritual choices.


Persecution of Christians is an easy find. There are so many
examples where to begin? Just a few days ago four Christians
were killed by an Islamist in Egypt. And in Iran four Christians
were sentenced to 80 lashes for participating in communion.
Is that mild? What about some of the children that were shot
at one our American schools for being Christian (Columbine,
I believe - double check that later)?

If you don't see it - you don't want to see it.

A loss of Christian privilege is something I'll comment on later,
along with keeping our beliefs private.

[Dex]

Persecution of Christians is an easy find. There are so many
examples where to begin? Just a few days ago four Christians
were killed by an Islamist in Egypt. And in Iran four Christians
were sentenced to 80 lashes for participating in communion.
Is that mild? What about some of the children that were shot
at one our American schools for being Christian (Columbine,
I believe - double check that later)?

If you don't see it - you don't want to see it.


I think it was pretty clear that I was discussing the persecution of Christians in the southern United States, as per your life experiences. If you had mentioned Christian persecution in predominantly muslim countries I'd have totally been behind you. But that's completely changing the nature of this discussion. I think Christians who get lashed in Iran for their beliefs would be pretty annoyed at someone in the West treating a store not putting out a nativity display as something in the same category as their experiences.

[iamnotafraid]

I think it was pretty clear that I was discussing the persecution of Christians in the southern United States, as per your life experiences.

I think Christians who get lashed in Iran for their beliefs would be pretty annoyed at someone in the West treating a store not putting out a nativity display as something in the same category as their experiences.


This thread was originally about Christian bashing and not
about me in particular. I believe I had already made it clear
that what I've personally went through wouldn't compare to
some Christians no matter where they reside.

Christian privilege is an interesting choice of words. Though
I don't know exactly what you mean, there has certainly been
an erosion of Christian rights (you may call them privileges).

As you seem to be concerned with my life as a Christian, I can
witness to you that even as a child I noticed a change in the way
Christians were treated in public schools. I started public school
in the early 1970's. We had bibles in our schools, we said the pledge
of allegiance with the words under God. And then sang "My
County, 'Tis Of Thee". And all these things were taken away in just
a matter of a few years. Freedom of religion is different than freedom
from religion. And freedom from patriotism must be in there too.

Not being too personal, but I can tell you if you're a Christian you
get treated differently in school. But you wouldn't call the being
persecuted - but at the very least it's bullying. And if I was
witness to it in my day, I can only imagine it's much worse today.

But in the end this turns out for the good of Christians...

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds
of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad,
for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets
who were before you. Matthew 5:11,12

And how are we to keep our beliefs private?

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and
it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men,
that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Matthew
5:14,15,16.

[Dex]

This thread was originally about Christian bashing and not
about me in particular. I believe I had already made it clear
that what I've personally went through wouldn't compare to
some Christians no matter where they reside.

I don't believe you did. You said "in my own way I've had to deal with persecution" after listing experiences which I maintain are not examples of persecution, and I believe that calling them such is an affront to truly persecuted groups, such as the Christians in middle eastern countries which you later invoked. That is what I take issue with. I didn't mean that persecution of Christianity does not exist at all in the world.

Christian privilege is an interesting choice of words. Though
I don't know exactly what you mean, there has certainly been
an erosion of Christian rights (you may call them privileges).

I will. I know many Christians from many parts of the western world and they all seem to enjoy the same rights that I do.

As you seem to be concerned with my life as a Christian, I can
witness to you that even as a child I noticed a change in the way
Christians were treated in public schools. I started public school
in the early 1970's. We had bibles in our schools, we said the pledge
of allegiance with the words under God. And then sang "My
County, 'Tis Of Thee". And all these things were taken away in just
a matter of a few years.

You brought up your life as a Christian initially. And the points you discussed when doing so brought to light certain issues I needed to take up, so I did *shrugs*. As for the above, I cannot see how any of that amounts to a loss of Christian rights. Just because changes are made and you happen to dislike them doesn't mean your rights are being taken away.

Not being too personal, but I can tell you if you're a Christian you
get treated differently in school. But you wouldn't call the being
persecuted - but at the very least it's bullying. And if I was
witness to it in my day, I can only imagine it's much worse today.

I will not deny that bullying against Christian students exists in schools today. That is a fact. Although whether bullying against Christian students matches or exceeds bullying against members of most any other religious group or minorities of any other kind is something I'm highly skeptical of.

But in the end this turns out for the good of Christians...

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds
of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad,
for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets
who were before you. Matthew 5:11,12

Well, that's good.

And how are we to keep our beliefs private?

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and
it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men,
that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Matthew
5:14,15,16.

You do not have to keep your beliefs private. I would never ask you to do such. I meant keep them in the private sector while operating in an officially secular democracy. As in, not in the government. Not in public schools. Not in displays on city-owned property. Feel free to discuss your beliefs and identity with anyone you who will listen, wear a cross in public, etc. Those are your protected rights, which certainly have not been taken from you.

[iamnotafraid]

But in no way am I implying that I've been persecuted as
some of His followers have.


^^Dex,
From an earlier post.

That will be the end of my personal replies about my own
life as it relates to being persecuted, bullied or just treated
in a less than respectful way for being a Christian. Again,
only as it relates to me. As a group or personal attack against
another Christian member of this board, of course I'll respond.

The proof is in the threads that I originally talked about as
far as the Christian bashing goes.

I will be glad to continue to talk about Christian beliefs such
as our salvation through Jesus Christ. And the upcoming events
that lead to Christ return.

[Dex]

You forgot the rest of it.


So yes in many ways I've had to deal with persecution because of my belief in
Christ. But it is expected. I'll have to find the verse, but Jesus told us we will
be persecuted. But in know way am I implying that I've been persecuted as
some of His followers have.

:shrug: Yes, you are acknowledging that there is a difference, but you were still calling your experiences persecution of a sort. I think this is a genuine sentiment among many Christians in the west that we need to talk about because it reveals such a fundamental misunderstanding of what a "right" is versus a "privilege". Christians in the US have enjoyed the privilege of seeing their faith displayed so publicly and favoured by public bodies in their life and now we are seeing a (slight) waning of that. Fair enough. It's less fun for many than it used to be in some ways, perhaps. But confusing that with a loss of rights, as many are, is so off-base and frankly a little offensive that I need to say my bit.

You just struck a nerve with that one. I too have pretty much said what I need to and look forward to any other discussions this topic may bring.

[I'msoAfraid95]

I live in the middle of the bible belt. My whole family is Christian. That being said, I am tue least religious of my family. I am coming to terms with stuff about me that some "christians" want me to die because of it.

A lot of Christians around here are easily offended. Example: Retail stores now say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. This pisses off some Christians because they will not tolerate anything except what they believe. It's these "christians" that I have a problem with.

[estranged4life]

in the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt, and religion still trips me out...and I'm a practicing Methodist!!!

It's funny, to the left I am too much to the right...to the right I am too much to the left...I am GLAD to be in the middle...LOL!!!

[Dex]

A lot of Christians around here are easily offended. Example: Retail stores now say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. This pisses off some Christians because they will not tolerate anything except what they believe. It's these "christians" that I have a problem with.

I have family in Canada who find "Happy Holidays" a sore point, too. I don't quite get the upset. I mean, sure, it could be seen as a rather transparent and shallow attempt at being "inclusive", but is it so terrible? I live in the UK now where they say "Merry/Happy Christmas" unreservedly, and have now determined that whether you say one or the other has pretty much zero impact on your actual celebration or enjoyment of Christmas.

If these are the kinds of things that are of such grave concern to Christians in the US, then they are very well off indeed.

[bluefox4000]

I'm an Atheist.....raised Christian and I i loathe Organized religion. lots of religious people are cool. but in large groups they are intolerable.

I'm gonna run now, lol:nod:

Mick

[Dex]

I'm an Atheist.....raised Christian and I i loathe Organized religion. lots of religious people are cool. but in large groups they are intolerable.


I recently attended a large party, and as far as I could tell was the only non-Mormon in attendance.

It was actually really fantastic fun. Who knew!?

Organised religion doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but for some people it seems to work darn well.

[I'msoAfraid95]

I have family in Canada who find "Happy Holidays" a sore point, too. I don't quite get the upset. I mean, sure, it could be seen as a rather transparent and shallow attempt at being "inclusive", but is it so terrible? I live in the UK now where they say "Merry/Happy Christmas" unreservedly, and have now determined that whether you say one or the other has pretty much zero impact on your actual celebration or enjoyment of Christmas.

If these are the kinds of things that are of such grave concern to Christians in the US, then they are very well off indeed.

Exactly! There's a lot of serious things occuring and you're worried about what a person's faith is?

[iamnotafraid]

Exactly! There's a lot of serious things occuring and you're worried about what a person's faith is?

Dex keeps bringing up things that seem petty to him,
but how in the world could one not be concerned about
another's faith? And I'm not talking about which particular
denomination you belong to.

If you believe in God, I don't know how you couldn't care
enough to talk to them about it. It should be the most
important thing in life.

None of us knows how many days we have. If you died
tonight do you know where you'd spend eternity? If your
sins have been covered by the Blood of Christ you can have
that assurance.

Don't push Christ away because of some of his followers.
None of us are in a state of perfection yet.

Sometimes I have to remind myself (quite often) that my
sins are forgiven. I don't mean that I have to remind myself
that I'm a Christian. I remind myself not to carry the guilt
of my many sins.

When you repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Savior,
not only are you forgiven but you don't have to carry around the
horrible guilt that sin brings.

[I'msoAfraid95]

Dex keeps bringing up things that seem petty to him,
but how in the world could one not be concerned about
another's faith? And I'm not talking about which particular
denomination you belong to.

If you believe in God, I don't know how you couldn't care
enough to talk to them about it. It should be the most
important thing in life.

None of us knows how many days we have. If you died
tonight do you know where you'd spend eternity? If your
sins have been covered by the Blood of Christ you can have
that assurance.

Don't push Christ away because of some of his followers.
None of us are in a state of perfection yet.

Sometimes I have to remind myself (quite often) that my
sins are forgiven. I don't mean that I have to remind myself
that I'm a Christian. I remind myself not to carry the guilt
of my many sins.

When you repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Savior,
not only are you forgiven but you don't have to carry around the
horrible guilt that sin brings.

Religion is one of the last things that I think of when talking or interacting with a person. I'm here for that person now, in the present. I will not bring it up because I believe that faith is something that is between a person and their God(s).

I am very skeptical of the bible( not God) because of all of the editing religious figures have done to it over the years. Plus, the translation from Hebrew to English in the 1600s( King James I of England) lost some things.
I am not going to turn myself around and be a person that I'm not. If God had wanted me that way, he would've done so. I believe that if you try to be like Christ ( ie: not judging, accepting, kind hearted etc) and believe in him, then you'll go to heaven not hell.

[QueenStevie]

I believe that if you try to be like Christ ( ie: not judging, accepting, kind hearted etc) and believe in him, then you'll go to heaven not hell.

So, you're saying that you believe that one would have to be non-judging in order to go to Heaven?! One can be judging and still go to Heaven, you know!

[I'msoAfraid95]

So, you're saying that you believe that one would have to be non-judging in order to go to Heaven?! One can be judging and still go to Heaven, you know!

Judge not lest you be judged. Matthew 7:1.

People who judge other because they think that they're better than that person.

[Dex]

So, you're saying that you believe that one would have to be non-judging in order to go to Heaven?!

Where did you read that? All I read was "non-judgemental" listed as a positive attribute. There is certainly much in the Bible to back that up and strongly cautions against being judgmental. True, none of it explicitly says "You won't get into heaven if you do this" (indeed, little in the Bible says that, nor did I'msoAfraid) but a lot of it it does strongly suggest that you spend your time on other activities.

One can be judging and still go to Heaven, you know!

None of us know who is and isn't going to heaven. Even if modern Christian theology ends up being 100% bang on, scripture is pretty clear that that's God's knowledge alone.

Judge not lest you be judged. Matthew 7:1.

People who judge other because they think that they're better than that person.

Yup. And a bunch more in the "cross references" column on the right of this website to back that up: http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-1.htm Seems pretty unambiguous to me.

[KarmaContestant]

Dex keeps bringing up things that seem petty to him,
but how in the world could one not be concerned about
another's faith? And I'm not talking about which particular
denomination you belong to.

If you believe in God, I don't know how you couldn't care
enough to talk to them about it. It should be the most
important thing in life.

None of us knows how many days we have. If you died
tonight do you know where you'd spend eternity? If your
sins have been covered by the Blood of Christ you can have
that assurance.



I've just sort of had an epiphany, and I'd like some input. Please bear with me.

Your statements "how in the world could one not be concerned about another's faith?" and "If you believe in God, I don't know how you couldn't care enough to talk to them about it. It should be the most important thing in life." have me thinking.

One of the...uh...traits of some Christians that I have always found particularly grating was their tendency to be busybodies when it comes to other people and their beliefs, and your comments fall right in line with that tendency. :angel:

So, I have an overwhelming amount of compassion for animals. Even though I don't have an elephant, and I don't have any ivory, and I'd never buy it or harm an elephant to get ivory, and even though I'd never contribute to any cause or actions which harmed elephants, I still agonize at the hardships they are going through. it bothers me to no end to think that there are individuals out there who seek to harm elephants. It fills me with dread to think of them running out of land and food, of being forced into extinction. It fills me with disgust and revulsion and shame and my own humanity to think of them being hurt and killed for thier body parts. How can the whole world not care about these magnificent creatures as much as I do? I just don't understand. I'll never get it. I could **do almost anything** in the name of protecting elephants. Or cats. Or Orangutans.

My question to you, and to any Christian who would like to answer, is this: Is your concern with the faith of others, and your need to talk about God with others, is there any similarity between that and my, at times, debilitating concern for elephants? Is it so ingrained, that to do or be otherwise would seem unnatural to you?

I know that analogy is really basic. I hope I'm making sense. I know that I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but I'm trying to understand the drive some Christians have to preach and, honestly, to be so nosy about what others do and think, and where it comes from, and how to relate to it.

I also want to address your other comment, and I'm not tryin to be flip. Yes, if I died tonight, I'd be totally ok with my place in the universe. I don't believe in Hell, or Satan, or even in an eternal afterlife, be it glorious or wretched. I can honestly say I believe these concepts were invented by men to control other men in a time when knowledge -even invented knowledge- was power. It's ok with me that you don't believe the same as I, and I think that is exactly what 'judge not lest you be judged' is all about. Faith is personal. God is -within- all of us. We are all His children. No matter what. The realm of God is not external, not somewhere or something to aspire towards. I don't need my sins covered by the blood of Christ. I strive always to be a good person, to do good, to think good, and I recognize that my failures can be rectified by my own actions. I don't need to depend on someone else's deeds to confirm my place in the grand scheme of things. I don't carry around any sin and guilt. I just know the difference between right and wrong, and I always try to do what is right. It's that simple.

But if your need to preach, to share your thoughts of God, to be concerned about the faith of others is anything like my overwhelming need to protect animals, then maybe I understand you more than I realized.

[iamnotafraid]

Your statements "how in the world could one not be concerned about another's faith?" and "If you believe in God, I don't know how you couldn't care enough to talk to them about it. It should be the most important thing in life." have me thinking.

One of the...uh...traits of some Christians that I have always found particularly grating was their tendency to be busybodies when it comes to other people and their beliefs, and your comments fall right in line with that tendency. :angel:

So, I have an overwhelming amount of compassion for animals.

Is your concern with the faith of others, and your need to talk about God with others, is there any similarity between that and my, at times, debilitating concern for elephants? Is it so ingrained, that to do or be otherwise would seem unnatural to you?

I'm trying to understand the drive some Christians have to preach and, honestly, to be so nosy about what others do and think, and where it comes from, and how to relate to it...

I also want to address your other comment, and I'm not tryin to be flip. Yes, if I died tonight, I'd be totally ok with my place in the universe. I don't believe in Hell, or Satan, or even in an eternal afterlife, be it glorious or wretched...

I don't need my sins covered by the blood of Christ. I strive always to be a good person, to do good, to think good, and I recognize that my failures can be rectified by my own actions...

But if your need to preach, to share your thoughts of God, to be concerned about the faith of others is anything like my overwhelming need to protect animals, then maybe I understand you more than I realized.


^^(edited to try to answer)

KC,
I'll try to hit the points, forgive me if I miss some things.
Before I start, know that I've never considered myself a
good witness. If this were a confessional, I wouldn't know
where to begin. I'm a very flawed individual, so I'm not
sitting on the judgement seat. Thankfully that's God's
work.

Those traits you described are true of individuals of any
group. Though maybe it should be less so for Christians.
When I think of the most common excuse for not attending
church, it's something like "that church is full of hypocrites..."
So people deny themselves the opportunity to learn about God
and enjoy the fellowship of one another - because of a few (or
many) hypocrites. That excuse ends up hurting you, your
family, friends and the church itself. Because you were made
for a purpose. You have a place in the house of God and a specific
talent He made you for. All of us just have to find out what that is.

Preaching, which I suppose you mean witnessing is something we
are commanded to do. Matthew 28: 19,20 "Go therefore and make
disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". This is what we are supposed
to do.

Know this, it is for love that this is shared. You and I are complete
strangers, but if you thought I was in mortal danger and there was
something you could do to save/help me, I bet you'd do it. And that's
just for this life, how much more so if it was for eternity sake?

I do love all of you here, that is why I witness to you. I want all of us
to spend eternity with God, not apart from Him.

How I wish you hadn't said what I highlighted in bold in your statement.
None of us are good enough, no not one. Christ shed His Blood for us so we
wouldn't have to be eternally separated from God. If there was another way,
why would Christ have suffered and died for all of us?

We all sin, and I realize some sins are singled out more than others. And
I know that irritates some, and it's understandable. No one likes to be picked
on - bullied even. But it's worse to say nothing. It's a non-caring cowards
way out. A friend who pats you on the back and tells you everything is going
to be alright (when you sin), is not a friend at all.

If you seek out God you will find Him. Ask God to reveal Himself to you and
read the bible, it's there you will find Him. If you repent and accept Jesus as
your Savior you'll be with Him forever. That's certainly what I look forward
to myself.

[sparky]

I find religion to be such a fascinating topic. My feelings about it for most have my life have been resoundingly negative and dismissive. But ultimately, as I have gotten older, I have been relentlessly interested in it. It fulfills what seems to be an inborn need for people to make sense of the world. Joseph Campbell brilliantly describes the cultural history of it in his great book The Power of Myth. Basically every religion in the history of mankind has all the same types of stories - virgin births, resurrections, afterlife, ultimate justice, young men on journeys seeking meaning. All the major ones have all these themes. Pick any of them. They all have most of the same defining stories.

Christianity has been the most successful. Though according to most sources, Islam is the one that is currently growing the fastest.

But this is a thread about Christianity. And it is one the most interesting of all. Like many others, it has such brilliant built in rules. One must try and convince others to believe the same things. So members are always growing the ranks. Even molding their children into followers before their cognitive abilities are developed! The central tenet insists that there be faith. So no proof is required. Requiring proof is insulting and disrespectful. That aspect alone is one of the most genius concepts in history. Thus no proof, or even conflicting facts can be dismissed as "tests" of faith. It is totally the circular snake eating it's own tail logic. I love it. There is no questioning. Absolute belief is built in! Certainly there are tales of questioners - aka Job. But they are always shown up and the truth is eventually revealed. Those who endure misery always get rewards. It works in other faiths also. The virgins those 9/11 bombers must be enjoying as I write. What nirvana for them!

Best sales pitch ever! Though it is not unique in that element.

Infallibility is also a great concept in religion. It instills this fantastic factor of squashing any questioning that pretty much destroys dissent in all but the most strong willed. Thus no matter how many humans rewrite the texts - they were "divinely" inspired. And most of that is so long ago that no one is alive to question the motives behind the alterations. The passage of time is the great equalizer and truth creation mechanism. In the olden days, magic was not that unusual. Because that was a different time. Things were different then. They didn't have cameras then you faithless fool! This one inspires utter awe in me. Simply as a business man I am amazed at the concept. The tithing thing is great on this count as well. What an angle. Believe! And BTW, gimme some of your money. Yes I am naming the percentage. That is the proof that you believe. There is a Stairway To Heaven Mr. Plant and the price is fixed! No negotiating! At all. The ultimate agent and manager. The first Hollywood talent agent had to have read the bible.

The way the Mormon Church deals with new Prophets is an astounding and profoundly modern twist. This is priceless. If you simply start an automatic writing process that you believe is divine, and get a certain number of people to believe it, BOOM. Instant prophet! You can basically start your own faction. That brings the ancient to the present and I am a big fan of that one. I am not so big a fan of their "leave the church and your entire family is commanded to pretend you are essentially dead, because you will not be with them for eternity, so they might as well just get it over with now and let you go" rule. But what a whopper of a threat. That, my friends, is a powerful rule. Talk about obedience. Everyone you love will cut you off. You will be utterly alone in the world. Pretty awesome way to shut someone down.

I got sidetracked, but I do think most people consider the Church of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Or at least they do. So I think it is relevant. And one of the fastest growing religions in North America. They are getting tons of people of Latin descent to join up. In spite of the whole get a planet to yourself part. Or perhaps because of it. I think there is some reference to spaceships, but my sources conflict on that. It is vague. Depends on the prophet and interpretation.

I could go on about all of this. I think that historically, religion, and Christianity in particular, has played such an enormous role in the history of Western Civilization that there are endless comments I could make about it. True, much of the effect has been holocaust like - the Crusades, the Dark Ages, the whole Witch Burning debacle, the molestation of thousands of innocent children, the fraud, the Magdelene Laundries, ...etc. Certainly the entire Mayan and Incan cultures and histories were razed and burned to the ground because of Christianity. People in Central and South America were burned alive for refusing to convert. Those conquistadores and missionaries were extremely committed to the cause. Now that is faith in action, so to speak, if ever there was any.

But religion has also inspired and created some really amazing charities. All kinds of cool orphan stuff, help for the hungry, dignified colleges, and even world class medical centers have been created and still exist because of religion and Christianity in particular.

I myself was raised devoid of religion. But I do seem to have an innate sense of right and wrong. I have no idea if I got that because of some religious cultural osmosis, or just because my parents were decent people. But I have it just the same. It seems inescapable, my sense of what is right and wrong. I like rules. In fact, I LOVE rules. They help me make order of my life. And that is what people seem to need most of all. Order. If nothing else, religion has helped to create order in society. And we need that. I am not the type of person who needs the threat of eternal damnation to prevent me from raping, murdering and stealing. But a vast majority of the animals called homo sapiens seem to. Bottom line, we are animals. And not everyone is born with a big enough or advanced enough brain to understand by sheer instinct what is good and bad. Religion in general, and Christianity in particular, has beaten that into much of the population. With implied dire consequences for breaking the rules.

For the record, I do not believe in any of it. I do not have nearly the disdain for people who believe in religion as I used to. It only riles me when forced at me. That happens less and less, thankfully. I only want to be free to be apart from its constraints on a legal basis. That being said, it sure seems to work for a lot of people. And the world, in general, is a lot more civilized than it was about 2000 years ago. Whoever made all of it up knew what they were doing. Kudos to them. Things are relatively under control. Nothing succeeds like success.

[bluefox4000]

Great post Sparky. That's my views of it as well. Except I was raised Christian. I'm gonna tell a story that might get some heat on me.....but is in keeping with this thread. This is what ultimately was the nail in my religious coffin. As some may know i'm handicapped. Born with cerebral palsy. One day when I was 11 or 12, I was in my local mall. When this old guy with a long beard comes up and says I see you're in a chair......Can i pray for you? I was questioning religion at this point but I said sure.

Now I thought it would be a silent prayer......WRONG. He whips out A cross and Ointment. Puts a shaky hand on my and proceeds to make the loudest draw attention to yourself pray i've ever heard. Scared the crap out of me. Needless to say.......still in the chair. I got home read the bible full out......poof.......atheist.

Now I'm beyond cool with letting you live your life. But if you come at me and beat me over the head with your book. I'm going to give you an earful.....and not regret it. i'm the only atheist in my family.......and it's hard.....but i get by.:thumbsup:

Mick

[I'msoAfraid95]

Great post Sparky. That's my views of it as well. Except I was raised Christian. I'm gonna tell a story that might get some heat on me.....but is in keeping with this thread. This is what ultimately was the nail in my religious coffin. As some may know i'm handicapped. Born with cerebral palsy. One day when I was 11 or 12, I was in my local mall. When this old guy with a long beard comes up and says I see you're in a chair......Can i pray for you? I was questioning religion at this point but I said sure.

Now I thought it would be a silent prayer......WRONG. He whips out A cross and Ointment. Puts a shaky hand on my and proceeds to make the loudest draw attention to yourself pray i've ever heard. Scared the crap out of me. Needless to say.......still in the chair. I got home read the bible full out......poof.......atheist.

Now I'm beyond cool with letting you live your life. But if you come at me and beat me over the head with your book. I'm going to give you an earful.....and not regret it. i'm the only atheist in my family.......and it's hard.....but i get by.:thumbsup:

Mick

I was born with Cerebral Palsy as well. No chair, though. I'm lucky. I had so many people pray for me as a kid. I didn't mind that too much. Usually they would just whisper it.
The thing that got me was a few years ago, I was at my grandmother's house, and she said something to effect of "I thank God everyday that Kim's(me) not worse off than she is". I was pissed for 2 reasons: A. I am relatively normal in that I can do most everything for myself. I can walk,talk,cook,clean, dress myself etc I could survive on my own.
B. She shouldn't be thanking God,imo. Thank the therapists who have worked off and on with me to get me to the point of being as independent as I am. 8 years of weekly therapy from the age of 6 months to near the age of 9, foot brace, and a mother who won't help me do things now are the reasons for being independent, not God.

[bluefox4000]

I was born with Cerebral Palsy as well. No chair, though. I'm lucky. I had so many people pray for me as a kid. I didn't mind that too much. Usually they would just whisper it.
The thing that got me was a few years ago, I was at my grandmother's house, and she said something to effect of "I thank God everyday that Kim's(me) not worse off than she is". I was pissed for 2 reasons: A. I am relatively normal in that I can do most everything for myself. I can walk,talk,cook,clean, dress myself etc I could survive on my own.
B. She shouldn't be thanking God,imo. Thank the therapists who have worked off and on with me to get me to the point of being as independent as I am. 8 years of weekly therapy from the age of 6 months to near the age of 9, foot brace, and a mother who won't help me do things now are the reasons for being independent, not God.

Yea i can relate. I talk perfectly now. I took speech therapy growing up though. I got thoes people saying praise God he can talk. No....that was the speech therapists that did that, lol As I said. I'm ok with believing.......just keep it out of my face.:nod:

Mick

[I'msoAfraid95]

Yea i can relate. I talk perfectly now. I took speech therapy growing up though. I got thoes people saying praise God he can talk. No....that was the speech therapists that did that, lol As I said. I'm ok with believing.......just keep it out of my face.:nod:

Mick

:nod: Exactly. :)

[becca]

Well, after reading most of this, I can only figure that what I read and was taught about what Christ was teaching and what someone else was are very different. I cannot for the life of me imagine the Jesus behind the extremely challenging concept of turning the other cheek becoming upset about suspected slights. If you follow him you take up the cross, which is you bear a burden as He did.

I learned about actions speaking louder than words, you help people physically as he did, you give even if it hurts when confronted with serious need. You try honestly to not throw the first stone and to behave responsibly in repentance if you have. Many minorities who are a minority through no choice in the matter are the stoned and I think you need to bow before that actuality and respect that, not look down on them or deign to allow them something from an ivory tower. You love as Jesus taught we should, and in that direction is growth. I think there is another edge to this sword which was also mentioned. Now then, how is the direction you have taken of being aggrieved worked for you? Has it brought you closer to others or separated you? If it's the latter you are the stony ground and you need to dig yourself up so that the word can grow and bear fruit to use the biblical terms. But I am a small c christian like the gideons, the quiet time with the words and the living of it though it is hard will draw others, not the praying in public or the crying about unfairness. You pick at the merest letters like a mote in another's eye while failing to attend a possible timber obscuring your own vision. Those who take that route have their only reward already in thinking themselves saved and having to do nothing but say words. It should be about doing, and there are many quietly doing with no thought of personal gain from it other than growth and furthering friendship.

This belongs to everyone and I fear for those who stand in any way between God's word and their fellow human beings by acting like it is their personal property to use as a weapon or in terms of grievances. Or in other words do not get into patting yourself on the back too much simply for having ears and hearing. Be glad when you are misunderstood or discriminated against as it is, I mean actually IS, the cross. This is not some magic club of people who are able to declare themselves 'saved' and be smug about others who are not. Your reading may be different for whatever reason but I do strive to follow someone who left words worth more than all the gold there ever could be. That is the kingdom and we stop it from being on earth. It was the bible that made me fight and speak out for same sex marriage in Canada against the odds. I got so much from doing that it was indeed miraculous. You cannot out think nor predict God's plan. Judge not lest ye be judged is a reminder that you may well be judged so don't glory in being better than someone else if you have done nothing to understand or help them. There are no copyrights on these teachings, and the term marriage is also not the exclusive domain of any church, ancient Greeks before Jesus paired off in same sex monogamous couples. What would He be, generous or stingy? Would he be judging and making noise about his sufferings? Now some times money tables need overturning, but mostly you simply need to be honest before a just God which is a principle of Judaism and Islam.

I wish people happy holidays where I can no longer presume them to be professed christians. The recent trend of whinging about not being able to presume such things anymore is simply childish. If you think yourself more a christian than somebody else I can almost assure you that you are by that alone quite certainly not. But as I say, some have a very different Jesus than the one I believe I can actually know and whose word in action I have seen bear incredible fruit. Good luck with learning how to grow good fruit, I wish that for myself and for all.

To sum up: Looking for something to be offended about? Is that really what you think Jesus would be doing? What he wants of followers? What have the fruits of that been? It seems to have not gone over well to me and allowed a platform to offend back which is the old eye for an eye we are warned against.

I profess nothing more than seeking to follow and learn from Jesus. I will feel no shame or heresy in also keeping and reading the Qur-an, nor the Hindu Upanishads. There is a spirit and we should talk about it and act upon it's truth and share. You can't deny the God given spirit in others without diminishing your own. Good luck!

[becca]

I was born with Cerebral Palsy as well. No chair, though. I'm lucky. I had so many people pray for me as a kid. I didn't mind that too much. Usually they would just whisper it.
The thing that got me was a few years ago, I was at my grandmother's house, and she said something to effect of "I thank God everyday that Kim's(me) not worse off than she is". I was pissed for 2 reasons: A. I am relatively normal in that I can do most everything for myself. I can walk,talk,cook,clean, dress myself etc I could survive on my own.
B. She shouldn't be thanking God,imo. Thank the therapists who have worked off and on with me to get me to the point of being as independent as I am. 8 years of weekly therapy from the age of 6 months to near the age of 9, foot brace, and a mother who won't help me do things now are the reasons for being independent, not God.

That was a form of the praying in public warned against. It can be used as a sort of weapon by some to show off. It's definitely a turn off. It's also very condescending of course. It would only be for you to thank or not thank God as the person effected, so in a sense your grandmother was getting in the way of your possible relationship. I think it's juvenile to read God into everything. I think there are many things God has nothing to do with (beyond their existence not being possible in a universe without a creator). There may very well be utter randomness and perhaps we can invoke God's intercession or will upon that, or perhaps not. We are to help others and help ourselves as responsible adults, anything else is backward superstition and a not taking of responsibility. You took responsibility and were helped by people actually doing rather than invoking magic words.

I went to a school where we were made to feel guilty if we did not fast for a boy with cancer... can you imagine... teen aged girls being taught that if they didn't eat it would help someone else? They made me feel so guilty that I went 24 hours without food secretly from my family just so I could look them in the eye and say I did it. It made me angry to be so manipulated like that, and that kind of wrongness done in the name of Jesus who taught no such thing turns more people off. They had fish stickers plastered on everything and had their own bookshops and radio stations with singers worshiping and praising in the same limited number of expressions who most people have never heard of (they never would play any Beatles or anything 'secular' even it were Let It Be for example).

In having a burden and overcome it to any extent you are more like Christ than that grandmother was at that moment. That is what the new testament is about, not reciting or showing off to look more spiritual. I hope the wrong people who are the loudest and most offensive haven't closed your spirit off or bluefox's, because those words belong to you as surely to anyone. The last will be first and the stone rejected by the worldly builder can really be the keystone that lifts many others up.

[I'msoAfraid95]

That was a form of the praying in public warned against. It can be used as a sort of weapon by some to show off. It's definitely a turn off. It's also very condescending of course. It would only be for you to thank or not thank God as the person effected, so in a sense your grandmother was getting in the way of your possible relationship. I think it's juvenile to read God into everything. I think there are many things God has nothing to do with (beyond their existence not being possible in a universe without a creator). There may very well be utter randomness and perhaps we can invoke God's intercession or will upon that, or perhaps not. We are to help others and help ourselves as responsible adults, anything else is backward superstition and a not taking of responsibility. You took responsibility and were helped by people actually doing rather than invoking magic words.

I went to a school where we were made to feel guilty if we did not fast for a boy with cancer... can you imagine... teen aged girls being taught that if they didn't eat it would help someone else? They made me feel so guilty that I went 24 hours without food secretly from my family just so I could look them in the eye and say I did it. It made me angry to be so manipulated like that, and that kind of wrongness done in the name of Jesus who taught no such thing turns more people off. They had fish stickers plastered on everything and had their own bookshops and radio stations with singers worshiping and praising in the same limited number of expressions who most people have never heard of (they never would play any Beatles or anything 'secular' even it were Let It Be for example).

In having a burden and overcome it to any extent you are more like Christ than that grandmother was at that moment. That is what the new testament is about, not reciting or showing off to look more spiritual. I hope the wrong people who are the loudest and most offensive haven't closed your spirit off or bluefox's, because those words belong to you as surely to anyone. The last will be first and the stone rejected by the worldly builder can really be the keystone that lifts many others up.

I couldn't agree more! Sorry about you having to go to that school. I don't think that people around here are that stupid or ignorant!

Like I said earlier, I believe in God, but I don't read much into the bible, apart from what Jesus said. He did what those loud and obnoxious "Christians" hate.

[KarmaContestant]

^^(edited to try to answer)

KC,
I'll try to hit the points, forgive me if I miss some things.
Before I start, know that I've never considered myself a
good witness. If this were a confessional, I wouldn't know
where to begin. I'm a very flawed individual, so I'm not
sitting on the judgement seat. Thankfully that's God's
work.

Those traits you described are true of individuals of any
group. Though maybe it should be less so for Christians.
When I think of the most common excuse for not attending
church, it's something like "that church is full of hypocrites..."
So people deny themselves the opportunity to learn about God
and enjoy the fellowship of one another - because of a few (or
many) hypocrites. That excuse ends up hurting you, your
family, friends and the church itself. Because you were made
for a purpose. You have a place in the house of God and a specific
talent He made you for. All of us just have to find out what that is.

Preaching, which I suppose you mean witnessing is something we
are commanded to do. Matthew 28: 19,20 "Go therefore and make
disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". This is what we are supposed
to do.

Know this, it is for love that this is shared. You and I are complete
strangers, but if you thought I was in mortal danger and there was
something you could do to save/help me, I bet you'd do it. And that's
just for this life, how much more so if it was for eternity sake?

I do love all of you here, that is why I witness to you. I want all of us
to spend eternity with God, not apart from Him.

How I wish you hadn't said what I highlighted in bold in your statement.
None of us are good enough, no not one. Christ shed His Blood for us so we
wouldn't have to be eternally separated from God. If there was another way,
why would Christ have suffered and died for all of us?

We all sin, and I realize some sins are singled out more than others. And
I know that irritates some, and it's understandable. No one likes to be picked
on - bullied even. But it's worse to say nothing. It's a non-caring cowards
way out. A friend who pats you on the back and tells you everything is going
to be alright (when you sin), is not a friend at all.

If you seek out God you will find Him. Ask God to reveal Himself to you and
read the bible, it's there you will find Him. If you repent and accept Jesus as
your Savior you'll be with Him forever. That's certainly what I look forward
to myself.

Hey there. I'm just getting around to catching up with this thread, and I wanted to thank you for your response. I half expected some kind of nasty retort - so thank you, for answering and for shattering my expectations.

[becca]

I'll have to strongly disagree about homosexuality being a sin period really. If it is for you in your life then I accept that, but it is not true of the people I know. As for it being cowardly to not point out that 'sin' to them, even if you do think of it as one, it is actually very rude and against the bible I was raised with that said to look first to the timber in your own eye and not cast the first stone.

Let's get at least one thing 'straight' here, Stevie Nicks is very gay friendly. To complain about being discriminated against as a sort of Evangelical christian who labels homosexuality as sin here is something I do not accept. I think this is what others have shown as well to cause the supposed problem of intolerance if there was one. Who committed the original intolerance?

Mostly this whole thread is just a spill over from some silly culture war thing from the U.S. encouraged by 'entertainers' with radio shows that were not legal at one time under the FCC and are still not allowed in many other countries. They tried to make the fool who followed and shot unarmed Trayvon Martin into some kind of victim and we saw how that turned out now haven't we?